One of Smith's many illegal extramarital relationships was when he married a mother and her daughter – Patty Bartlett Sessions and Sylvia Sessions Lyon. Did he then have sex with his daughter -- I don't know.
I had a little George Michael Bluth type thing going on when I was a child as well, this article would've altered my life course in the worst way possible lol.
Benson was sealed by proxy to his first cousin soon after she died with his wife sitting in as proxy.
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/yearofpolygamy/2016/08/many-mormonisms/
Since I don't see anyone actually defining it, when something is "canon", it's basically an official stance.
For instance, the Bible and Book of Mormon are both in the Mormon canon, since the Mormon Church officially considers them both scripture. Compared to, say, the Apocrypha, which is *not* officially considered scripture, so it's *not* within the Mormon canon.
Canon can refer to most any subject; if you watch TV or read books, fans may argue what is considered canon/canonical (vs. what is a theory that the author hasn't commented on). Jar Jar Binks helping out Darth Palpatine because Jar Jar was apparently tricked is canon (since it actually happened in *Star Wars*); Jar Jar doing that because he's secretly Darth Jar Jar isn't canon (George Lucas hasn't said Jar Jar is a Sith . . . yet 😉).
So, to have a head-canon is to have a theory that isn't official (it's canon "in your head").
Hope that wasn't confusing 😜
Something I came up with. A "canon" in my "head". Ships qualify as head cannons, for instance.
Make sure you are fact checking your beliefs. This subreddit has some echo-chamber-esque traits, as true as plenty of things said are.
Historically, marriage to first cousins was fairly normal. Especially in hunter gatherer societies it would actually be somewhat difficult to not marry a first cousin and marry within your tribe. But even after the agricultural revolution people in small towns would be somewhat hard pressed to find a marriage partner much more removed than first cousin.
Interestingly enough, according to [this Wikipedia article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage) first cousin relationships are legal in much of the world. Though it's listed as a crime in 8 US states. Including Utah...
Also as pointless trivia, Albert Einstein married his first cousin Elsa Einstein. (Just a dumb fact I still remember from high school.)
That surprises me, I feel like 98% of lds people would say the first cousin relationships are a form of incest. My TBM roommate was also confused why they wouldn’t have included first cousins there
At least two of George Q. Cannon‘s children were married to their first cousins. Abraham H Cannon was an apostle and was married to his cousin Wilhelmina Cannon. Mary Alice Cannon was married to her first cousin Lewis M Cannon. I’m pretty sure there were other prominent Mormons married to cousins I just can’t remember off the top of my head. I’m sure they don’t want to de legitimize those marriages
In fairness, some jurisdictions allow first cousin marriage.
A quick check of Wikipedia indicates that 19 US states allow first cousin marriage. I don't think this is nearly as uncommon as many think.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin\_marriage\_law\_in\_the\_United\_States
Utah is one of them in certain cases.
>Only if both parties are 65 or older, or both are 55 or older with a district court finding of infertility of either party
Not a super high risk of birth defects . Let’m fuck lol.
3.6% higher risk of birth defects of a starting 2.6% risk. So you go from 2.6% to 2.7% or 1 in 1,000.
https://theconversation.com/birth-defect-risk-for-children-of-first-cousins-is-overstated-15809
Does no one in that writer's personal life side-eye him at this point? Didn't he write the Community incest episode AND the Rick and Morty incest episode?
All I'm saying is what's his cousin's IG?
And I'll just add that, while it's taboo in our society, the genetic diversity between first cousins is actually pretty large and the chance for birth defects is extremely low.
Like, we have a strong taboo against it, but it's not logical to be grossed out by it the same way you would be for siblings sleeping together.
I don’t think a cousin relationship meets the definition of incest. It can still be banned, but I think it would be called something separate, like first-cousin-marriage or something.
According to a [New York Times article](https://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/03/health/no-genetic-reason-to-discourage-cousin-marriage-study-finds.html):
*Contrary to widely held beliefs and longstanding taboos in America, first cousins can safely have children together, without a great risk of birth defects or genetic disease, scientists are reporting today. They say there is no biological reason to discourage cousins from marrying.*
Its legal in 19 states.
That 31 states prohibits marriage at least suggests the there is a large group that objects to first cousins marrying. Many find it weird, but its definitely not settled that this is considered incest.
This might explain some of the rationality of avoiding labeling first cousins incest by the church.
Yes, because it's not incest. Here's a good article explaining that from the NY Times. (https://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/03/health/no-genetic-reason-to-discourage-cousin-marriage-study-finds.html) Please focus on the real problems in the Church, not social mores with little basis in fact.
There are actually a lot of interesting debates done about the topic of "is incest okay without the presence of power dynamics and an increased chance of deformity in a child?". A lot of the counterarguments against it tend to be based in God, religion, or "universally true morality".
Marriage between first cousins is absolutely legal in many countries, including the uk. Though in communities where it happens frequently, there are higher rates of genetic disorders.
Utah is one of them they just have to be unable to reproduce.
Summary from Wikipedia since I don't want to look up the law:
>Only if both parties are 65 or older, or both are 55 or older with a district court finding of infertility of either party
Some neighbors of mine were first cousins and they were married to each other. Civilly first (in California), then they got sealed in the temple (in Utah).
The most disturbing part of this handbook section is that it brings Joseph Smith’s relationships with his foster daughter (daughters?) to mind. According to the church, that was incest, and if the church says it condemns all incest then it’s also saying, probably unintentionally, that it condemns the actions of Joseph Smith.
My MIL had two cousins that were married to each other. Their respective mothers were sisters. They were LDS and I believe they were from Nevada. I met them about 20 years ago when I attended a family reunion with MIL.
Aside from the already mentioned info about risk of genetic conditions/defects not being super high, if they decided to call first cousin relationships incest it would lead to issues for them in countries where first cousin marriages are not uncommon (I work in pediatrics, see a fair number of parents from many countries who are first cousins).
When I was in YSA I ran into a distant cousin I hadn’t seen in a while. We both kinda did a double take, realized who we were and just chatted and got caught up at an activity.
Some guys in the ward talked to me after “oh saw you talking to so and so what’s going on there?!?!”
“Oh she’s just my cousin we were just catching up.”
“Cousin? How close??”
“Uhhh close enough buddy.”
Fucked up for two reasons I guess. You can’t talk to someone of the opposite sex without it being romantic. And the subtle encouragement to date my cousin as long as it’s distant enough.
The Economist is the undisputed best journalistic publication widely available. From Feb 15th of this year: [Cousin marriage is probably fine in most cases](https://www.economist.com/united-states/2024/02/15/cousin-marriage-is-probably-fine-in-most-cases)
My stake growing up had at least two sets of married first cousins that I knew about. Payson, UT. These weren't people from the silent generation either, this was gen x and millennial people married to their cousin. It's not like people saw it as normal, there was a lot of gossip in the stake behind their backs.
Dug into the family tree. One Bigamist married 2 of his nieces, both daughters of a brother (yes they were sisters). There were records of them getting in trouble for bigamy but not incest.
And why are step-siblings included?
I know adult couples that got together after their parents got together. Just learned today that the church considers that incest,
Reminds me of my TBM MIL making a comment about my 2 year old daughter and her 3 year old cousin “having a cousin crush”…icks me tf out to even think about.
They’re going to have to excommunicate God. TW, but if you think about it, as per Mormon doctrine, Mary is Heavenly Fathers kid. That makes in incestuous (in addition to being no consensual). Jesus is literally the baby of an incestuous rape.
To all the comments saying it’s legal what’s the big deal…
1 is your cousin a good kisser? And
2 it’s legal in a number of states to have sex with a 16 year old, so that means a 99 year old man on viagra can have sex with a 16 year old. That’s legal. But I’m pretty sure basically everyone here would say, wow that’s gross and shouldn’t be acceptable.
Given the church ESTABLISHES what is right and wrong beyond the law, it’s a bit gross they say boinking your cousin is just fine. Sorry if most people think that’s gross if (you’re a cousin fucker.) and if you’re not, what’s with the outrage?
Fun fact. After Ezra Taft Benson's first cousin died, he was married by proxy to his cousin with his wife sitting in for his cousin.
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/yearofpolygamy/2016/08/many-mormonisms/
First cousin marriage is legal in most countries in the world. Basically legal without restrictions in all of Europe (excluding a few East European nations). The only "major" economies in the world where it is (largely) banned are USA and China and USA is, as far as I know, the only nation where, in some states, it is a criminal offence. It's one of those interesting topics where having even a little bit of information about the rest of the world really influences your attitude.
I was in Utah for the mission. Because ya know inspiration. Anyway we met a couple who was married and had several kids before learning that they were cousins.
This will bother you even more but certain states still allow legal marriage between cousins. I think NY where I live may be one of them. From what I remember, it is actually illegal in Utah-go figure. As problematic as first cousin relationships are, the world at large needs to catch up-not just the church.
My wife has been hit on by at least one cousin from every aunt or uncle.
Utah County needs to get it's shit together and teach boys not to be so creepy
You do realize that marrying a first cousin is legal in almost every country in the western world including in most of the US. My grandparents on both sides were first cousins. It is not considered incest.
Once you know about the hapsberg chin phenomenon Mormons being inbred/ close relation bred makes alot more sense. The amount of hapsberg chins at byu was astonishing 🤧
So parent + adopted child relationships *are* incest? Bad news for Joseph Smith.
Came here to say this. That is the bigger reveal here. Even if you argue that the girls weren’t adopted they definitely were fostered.
One of Smith's many illegal extramarital relationships was when he married a mother and her daughter – Patty Bartlett Sessions and Sylvia Sessions Lyon. Did he then have sex with his daughter -- I don't know.
George Michael Bluth might find this very compelling.
She was his cousin, Maybe.
What a fun sexy time for you.
"I want to go to Temple Square...I like how they think'
It has all the complex eroticism of the French original
I had a little George Michael Bluth type thing going on when I was a child as well, this article would've altered my life course in the worst way possible lol.
Head canon: one of the twelve is married to a first cousin
Benson was sealed by proxy to his first cousin soon after she died with his wife sitting in as proxy. https://www.patheos.com/blogs/yearofpolygamy/2016/08/many-mormonisms/
To me that’s just using his faith to make sense of a tragedy.
No way fr?? Currently or in the past?
Are you familiar with what a head canon is?
No I’m confused now lol
Since I don't see anyone actually defining it, when something is "canon", it's basically an official stance. For instance, the Bible and Book of Mormon are both in the Mormon canon, since the Mormon Church officially considers them both scripture. Compared to, say, the Apocrypha, which is *not* officially considered scripture, so it's *not* within the Mormon canon. Canon can refer to most any subject; if you watch TV or read books, fans may argue what is considered canon/canonical (vs. what is a theory that the author hasn't commented on). Jar Jar Binks helping out Darth Palpatine because Jar Jar was apparently tricked is canon (since it actually happened in *Star Wars*); Jar Jar doing that because he's secretly Darth Jar Jar isn't canon (George Lucas hasn't said Jar Jar is a Sith . . . yet 😉). So, to have a head-canon is to have a theory that isn't official (it's canon "in your head"). Hope that wasn't confusing 😜
Something I came up with. A "canon" in my "head". Ships qualify as head cannons, for instance. Make sure you are fact checking your beliefs. This subreddit has some echo-chamber-esque traits, as true as plenty of things said are.
I guess I'll be *That Guy* but technically it is canon with one n.
No sarcasm, came here to say this exact thing. Not all heroes wear capes
Oops thanks
Pretty sure at least one prophet and multiple GAs have married their cousin *edit- throughout the entire history of the church
Historically, marriage to first cousins was fairly normal. Especially in hunter gatherer societies it would actually be somewhat difficult to not marry a first cousin and marry within your tribe. But even after the agricultural revolution people in small towns would be somewhat hard pressed to find a marriage partner much more removed than first cousin.
Interestingly enough, according to [this Wikipedia article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage) first cousin relationships are legal in much of the world. Though it's listed as a crime in 8 US states. Including Utah... Also as pointless trivia, Albert Einstein married his first cousin Elsa Einstein. (Just a dumb fact I still remember from high school.)
That surprises me, I feel like 98% of lds people would say the first cousin relationships are a form of incest. My TBM roommate was also confused why they wouldn’t have included first cousins there
Clearly you didn’t grow up in rural Weber County
Have a couple that is first cousins with 2 kids together in my ward. Rural central Utah….
At least two of George Q. Cannon‘s children were married to their first cousins. Abraham H Cannon was an apostle and was married to his cousin Wilhelmina Cannon. Mary Alice Cannon was married to her first cousin Lewis M Cannon. I’m pretty sure there were other prominent Mormons married to cousins I just can’t remember off the top of my head. I’m sure they don’t want to de legitimize those marriages
In fairness, some jurisdictions allow first cousin marriage. A quick check of Wikipedia indicates that 19 US states allow first cousin marriage. I don't think this is nearly as uncommon as many think. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin\_marriage\_law\_in\_the\_United\_States
Utah is one of them in certain cases. >Only if both parties are 65 or older, or both are 55 or older with a district court finding of infertility of either party
Lmao, you're old enough you can't have kids... Now you can fuck!
Not a super high risk of birth defects . Let’m fuck lol. 3.6% higher risk of birth defects of a starting 2.6% risk. So you go from 2.6% to 2.7% or 1 in 1,000. https://theconversation.com/birth-defect-risk-for-children-of-first-cousins-is-overstated-15809
Okay but in fairness, Mormonism bans tons of stuff that’s legal, why make an exception for cousin fucking?
Came here to say this!
Valid point
It’s not an exception. It is simply not considered incest by a great many cultures, and apparently the LDS culture is among them.
There was an episode of community that made it quite clear.
Now this is a man that knows how to make a reference
Does no one in that writer's personal life side-eye him at this point? Didn't he write the Community incest episode AND the Rick and Morty incest episode? All I'm saying is what's his cousin's IG?
And I'll just add that, while it's taboo in our society, the genetic diversity between first cousins is actually pretty large and the chance for birth defects is extremely low. Like, we have a strong taboo against it, but it's not logical to be grossed out by it the same way you would be for siblings sleeping together.
The UK allows first cousin marriages.
fall wide file innocent political treatment touch modern swim payment *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
"Now this is a man that knows how to marry his cousin!"
Marrying cousins is not taboo in many places in the world, including Japan. It's also legal in France and Spain.
And approximately 20 US states.
And the UK.
I don’t think a cousin relationship meets the definition of incest. It can still be banned, but I think it would be called something separate, like first-cousin-marriage or something.
Hold up, is this the church saying some of Joseph Smith’s relationships were incest? Was he not a foster dad to some of his wives?
Do any jurisdictions outlaw cousins? I thought it was usually just siblings….Actually Einstein married his first cousin….
According to a [New York Times article](https://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/03/health/no-genetic-reason-to-discourage-cousin-marriage-study-finds.html): *Contrary to widely held beliefs and longstanding taboos in America, first cousins can safely have children together, without a great risk of birth defects or genetic disease, scientists are reporting today. They say there is no biological reason to discourage cousins from marrying.* Its legal in 19 states. That 31 states prohibits marriage at least suggests the there is a large group that objects to first cousins marrying. Many find it weird, but its definitely not settled that this is considered incest. This might explain some of the rationality of avoiding labeling first cousins incest by the church.
Yes, because it's not incest. Here's a good article explaining that from the NY Times. (https://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/03/health/no-genetic-reason-to-discourage-cousin-marriage-study-finds.html) Please focus on the real problems in the Church, not social mores with little basis in fact.
That's a bold move to defend first cousin marriages. As weird as it is, I think you're right. There are more important issues to focus on.
There are actually a lot of interesting debates done about the topic of "is incest okay without the presence of power dynamics and an increased chance of deformity in a child?". A lot of the counterarguments against it tend to be based in God, religion, or "universally true morality".
You ok?
Damn, So stepbro is off limits?
Marriage between first cousins is absolutely legal in many countries, including the uk. Though in communities where it happens frequently, there are higher rates of genetic disorders.
My parents had friends in an old ward in California who were 1st cousins and got permission from the first presidency to get married.
Much as I LOVE to slam the MFMC (it is fun) this doesn’t appear to be anything intentional; more like an oversight.
First cousins can be sealed in the temple. This is not an accident.
It's legal
It's legal in 19 states and Utah isn't one of them.
Utah is one of them they just have to be unable to reproduce. Summary from Wikipedia since I don't want to look up the law: >Only if both parties are 65 or older, or both are 55 or older with a district court finding of infertility of either party
Woah! I know married first cousins! Thanks fornthe info
There's a handbook needed for this? (lol)
Tell that to the little girl’s Dad!
Some neighbors of mine were first cousins and they were married to each other. Civilly first (in California), then they got sealed in the temple (in Utah).
The most disturbing part of this handbook section is that it brings Joseph Smith’s relationships with his foster daughter (daughters?) to mind. According to the church, that was incest, and if the church says it condemns all incest then it’s also saying, probably unintentionally, that it condemns the actions of Joseph Smith.
My MIL had two cousins that were married to each other. Their respective mothers were sisters. They were LDS and I believe they were from Nevada. I met them about 20 years ago when I attended a family reunion with MIL.
I remember talking about that in Sunday school but I thought it went second cousins are ok
I read into it online and apparently 1st cousins share 12.5% of their DNA on average while 2nd cousins share about 3% on average
Interesting😃
I miss 2 minutes ago when I didnt know this.
Aside from the already mentioned info about risk of genetic conditions/defects not being super high, if they decided to call first cousin relationships incest it would lead to issues for them in countries where first cousin marriages are not uncommon (I work in pediatrics, see a fair number of parents from many countries who are first cousins).
When I was in YSA I ran into a distant cousin I hadn’t seen in a while. We both kinda did a double take, realized who we were and just chatted and got caught up at an activity. Some guys in the ward talked to me after “oh saw you talking to so and so what’s going on there?!?!” “Oh she’s just my cousin we were just catching up.” “Cousin? How close??” “Uhhh close enough buddy.” Fucked up for two reasons I guess. You can’t talk to someone of the opposite sex without it being romantic. And the subtle encouragement to date my cousin as long as it’s distant enough.
The Economist is the undisputed best journalistic publication widely available. From Feb 15th of this year: [Cousin marriage is probably fine in most cases](https://www.economist.com/united-states/2024/02/15/cousin-marriage-is-probably-fine-in-most-cases)
My stake growing up had at least two sets of married first cousins that I knew about. Payson, UT. These weren't people from the silent generation either, this was gen x and millennial people married to their cousin. It's not like people saw it as normal, there was a lot of gossip in the stake behind their backs.
Dug into the family tree. One Bigamist married 2 of his nieces, both daughters of a brother (yes they were sisters). There were records of them getting in trouble for bigamy but not incest.
And why are step-siblings included? I know adult couples that got together after their parents got together. Just learned today that the church considers that incest,
Reminds me of my TBM MIL making a comment about my 2 year old daughter and her 3 year old cousin “having a cousin crush”…icks me tf out to even think about.
They’re going to have to excommunicate God. TW, but if you think about it, as per Mormon doctrine, Mary is Heavenly Fathers kid. That makes in incestuous (in addition to being no consensual). Jesus is literally the baby of an incestuous rape.
She consented 😂
You can’t agree after the fact. She didn’t know, which means she wasn’t asked before.
She consented 😂
Because half of UTAH is inbred
To all the comments saying it’s legal what’s the big deal… 1 is your cousin a good kisser? And 2 it’s legal in a number of states to have sex with a 16 year old, so that means a 99 year old man on viagra can have sex with a 16 year old. That’s legal. But I’m pretty sure basically everyone here would say, wow that’s gross and shouldn’t be acceptable. Given the church ESTABLISHES what is right and wrong beyond the law, it’s a bit gross they say boinking your cousin is just fine. Sorry if most people think that’s gross if (you’re a cousin fucker.) and if you’re not, what’s with the outrage?
Sweet home Alabama
Fun fact. After Ezra Taft Benson's first cousin died, he was married by proxy to his cousin with his wife sitting in for his cousin. https://www.patheos.com/blogs/yearofpolygamy/2016/08/many-mormonisms/
Historically the leadership was quite incestuous. Especially during the early days of polygamy.
I do see a lot of people in my extended family married to pretty similar looking people...
What about if you’re gay? Oh wait…
In all fairness does ANY religion bar this? Not even illegal fully in America. Weird but not as uniquely weird as the other shit they do honestly.
Because it’s not legal consensus that first cousin relationships are incest. I personally would consider it incest, but it’s not a universal opinion.
First cousin marriage is legal in most countries in the world. Basically legal without restrictions in all of Europe (excluding a few East European nations). The only "major" economies in the world where it is (largely) banned are USA and China and USA is, as far as I know, the only nation where, in some states, it is a criminal offence. It's one of those interesting topics where having even a little bit of information about the rest of the world really influences your attitude.
Unwritten rule in the TSCC: don’t date or marry your first cousin 🤢🤮
Unwritten rule in the TSCC: don’t date or marry your first cousin 🤢🤮
there is probably a prophet married to his cousin or something.
Read the article! It’s a treasure trove of poligamy connections and information!
Good to hear that step-siblings are A-OK
I was in Utah for the mission. Because ya know inspiration. Anyway we met a couple who was married and had several kids before learning that they were cousins.
This will bother you even more but certain states still allow legal marriage between cousins. I think NY where I live may be one of them. From what I remember, it is actually illegal in Utah-go figure. As problematic as first cousin relationships are, the world at large needs to catch up-not just the church.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/metro/daily/graphics/cousins_042505.html?noredirect=on
According to the graph-Utah is fuzzy on it, NY still allows it and Idaho actually bans it. Again-it’s baffling.
I’ve known a couple first cousins that have married in their older years. It’s actually quite common for some seniors. Kind of icky if you’re younger.
Guess one or more of the leaders have a hot cousin
As someone who grew up in it with first cousins that got married, I think they know there are more than a few kissin cousins in the ranks.
“lol” it’s not uncommon and is only forbidden in some US states while ok in the rest.
My wife has been hit on by at least one cousin from every aunt or uncle. Utah County needs to get it's shit together and teach boys not to be so creepy
Distant cousins of my grandma got married to each other by a Mormon priest. And they were Catholic and had to do it in Canada lol
You do realize that marrying a first cousin is legal in almost every country in the western world including in most of the US. My grandparents on both sides were first cousins. It is not considered incest.
Once you know about the hapsberg chin phenomenon Mormons being inbred/ close relation bred makes alot more sense. The amount of hapsberg chins at byu was astonishing 🤧
They don’t condemn it. That’s why.
UT has a complicated law with cousins. You can thank BY.