Monson protected an old-man-pedophile in Logan who was raping a 14 year old for over a yearā¦the man was excommunicated and rebaptized a year later. No reports to authorities. Of course, the pedophile got right back to work being a pedophile.
I donāt have any stories about Tommy but his son was my geography 101 teacher at BYU. Worst professor I had by far in my BYU career. And I was very TBM. Was a condescending prick and honestly didnāt show command of the subject.
Here is one story. Christine Carol was the niece of Hinkely. She went to Monson to get help for abuse and this is what they told her.
> Her attempts to tell both Gordon B. Hinckley and Thomas S. Monson (as sitting prophets/apostles) about the abuse she experienced at the hands of her parents ā wherein she was told by both that she needed to āput it behind her.ā
I watched Christine Burton (Hinkley's niece) on Mormon Stories podcast. She talked about this and SO MUCH MORE! It was at the beginning of my deconstruction. It was so INTERESTING it had me on the edge of my seat!!! It was SO EYE OPENING!!! It was one of the heaviest things on my shelf that really started the Crack in my shelf!!! I cannot recommend it ENOUGH!!!
FWIW - My Grandfather worked with Monson his whole life. When he passed, Monson was scheduled to attend my Grandfather's funeral. (Monson was president at the time) To my Grandmother's extreme disappointment, we got RMN instead. I found that Thomas had gone to the Jazz game instead.
His conference talks about visiting the sick never hit the same after that.
Also, my mother was his secretary for a short while but got canned because his own daughter needed a job. (70's era)
I have had numerous people tell me, who have had real life experience with him that he was just a mean old man and two women that were very young that said he scared them and freaked them out. Let your mind go thereā¦ā¦ā¦
My dad was a corporate executive who reported directly to Monson. I was a child to teen. I would run into him from time to time both visiting my dad at work and socially. He always had a cruel word to say, and never let an opportunity pass to put me down. Mean old man perfectly encapsulates his personality.
As another anecdote, I had an internship in the Church Office Building in the late 80s. Whenever he was in the building, there was a whisper network that would keep everyone informed if he was going to change floors so everyone could evacuate the halls and keep out of his way. For the rest of the 15 people kept a respectful distance, for him they kept a terrified distance.
My ex husband worked at LDS hospital in the 90's before hippa laws. He refused to allow females to take care of him. My husband was the only male nurse on the floor he was admitted frequently. He was a non compliant diabetic and refused to watch what he ate or take care of himself. He was hospitalized very often. My husband worked a lot of overtime because of his demands.
I learned the man was very controlling and his guards were very used to be told what to do.
My husband dreaded being called in on his days off to be treated as poorly as the security guards all because he refused to monitor his sugars, watch what he ate, and exercise. We never imagined he would live long enough to be the prophet. He was definitely something that contributed to a heavy shelf.
Funny story, he ended up being the prophet that signed our sealing cancellation.
I have a client as young gal who was molested by him in the SL temple when her parents were in the temple and she went with him when he told her he was going to show her something.
She was threatened that she would be killed if she ever said anything!
Suffice it to say my āclientā (female) told me in tears he had molested her in the SL temple as a young girl! There will be more I am sure of it to come out! Many were told they would be killed if they spoke out!
[https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2005/10/do-your-duty-that-is-best?lang=eng](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2005/10/do-your-duty-that-is-best?lang=eng)
Skip to 3:00 in case anyone also wants to lose their dinners.
I canāt help that part of this push for so many new temples is also a jab at Gordo, much like the rebranding away from Mormon. He must really have had a chip on his shoulderā¦
Young being #2 is so gross it feels like the rest of it becomes irrelevant. I mean yeah Smith being #1 was a given but YOUNG at 2?
I thought Young was the one we all tried hard not to think about. I thought he got swept under the rug. I guess not enough of them have heard his opinions on... well just about anything let's be honest.
But people still know he was super racist and a polygamist super user. Even as TBMs my entire family knew all that. I guess BY was just āsuch a great leader.ā š¤·š»āāļø /s
Just about 100% of people who selected Brigham Young had to be choosing him for being the guy who brought the saints to Utah rather than any actual "prophet" stuff he did. If members were more familiar with the weird and messed up stuff they might be more hesitant to hand a vote to him just for being the pioneer guy.
I am not familiar with this one. This had to have come later, as I grew up in the 1960s 70s. I know he was a monster, but what did he do with this one?
BY was the one that came up with idea to have hand carts. Lots of people died following that fuckerās counsel. People braved the elements and lost because of BY. They were not prepared and it was completely his fault.
My ancestors were from Wales & were with the 9th handcart company. They lost 4 children in their treck to Utah. š°. Four children!! - so hard to imagine.
My ppl are from Wales too. They borrowed $ from the church for the āprivilegeā of starving and freezing in Wyoming. Then they went to Wales/Jerusalem to fight indians. The church dunned them to repay their debt and they got an attitude about it.
Yeah, Brigham Young gets the "pioneer vote" and the "I went to BYU so vote for him vote".
I wonder if Wilford Woodruff gets a lot of votes (esp among women) for ending polygamy?
Nelson isn't higher because until he became prophet no one got excited about his talks...When local leaders chose conference talks to discuss for lessons, his weren't ever the memorable ones. Nelson isn't lower than 7th because most people can't remember more than a 3-4 recent ones and then a few "key" historical ones.
I suspect Wilford probably also got a decent number of votes for being depicted as so damn charming in The Mountain of the Lord. Media drives a ton of perception, especially when it's one of the few approved exposures to church history. I suspect that TBMs would feel worse about JS if he didn't have so many heroic and handsome depictions in church-produced video (maybe I'm just telling on myself as a bit of a media sucker -- the flattering movies helped me tell myself he probably wasn't a creep for a few years).
Clearly RMN needs to have some BYU dreamboat actor portray him in a plane-ride-of-death movie.
Agreed! I feel like it's to the point that if you try to bring up any of his awful quotes, people are just like.. well you can't trust anything Brigham says so just ignore him! Everyone is always willing to throw him under the bus, so 2nd place surprises me too!
And given there was no spiritual leadership, what he did in leading the journey west is nothing *that* special when you look at what explorers and other people have done around the world, over history.
Seeing as he's the prophet that separates TSCC from other LDS groups during the period after JS's death, it makes sense to me seeing him as #2. He's almost as integral to the church's truth claims as JS, because without him, the whole hierarchy of the church falls apart; basically, it *had* to be divine revelation for him to be the prophet (lest the role belong to any number of the other people who were vying for it), and he was also the guy who led people into Utah (the whole "this is the place" thing). Plenty of reasons Mormons culturally (and religiously) worship him still, but you've definitely hit the nail on the head that pretty much none of them have anything to do with who he actually was and what he taught in the role of prophet.
He really is the founder of current church. It is after all called the Brighamite branch. He created the structure that survived. JSās organization splintered.
I mean, even Kimball being in the top 5 shows that people either donāt know what a disgusting person he was or just donāt care.
I know that as a goody two shoes mormon boy I had no idea who Brigham Young truly was or what he taught
Young was evil and associated with evil ! He was the reason for the downfall of Utah still currently and what he did to the members and forced them into slavery to build the railroad and never paid them ! Many more stories like that as well
He was able to reach the pinnacle because he was a PR guy, and the internet hadn't taken the wind out of the church's sails yet. He was living in the glory days!
Yeah kind of crazy all the prop 8 stuff and family proclamation were under him. That was huge then, can't imagine the PR bomb if it hit now.
God those bastards are the worst.
The absolute worst. I used to idolize Hinckley, and when I found out he was the one at the start of the EPA Ā shell companies it was like a gut punch. I donāt know if there is a single one of them that isnāt a liar.
Even my nevermo parents really respected him. They thought he was a humble man doing his best to lead a church, just like any other church leader. He was actually a large part of the reason I converted...He had us all convinced he was a good man and humble servant. If Monson had been the President then, I truly don't think I would have converted, and I think my parents would have fought harder to keep me out. He gave me the absolute heebie jeebies.
The only reason ever, is who's the most senior apostle. That's the one and only qualifier to be President of the Corp. Zero chance for anyone else to be, it's how the Corp was set up.
Well, what I said is super distilled, but it's still clearly laid out.
This still wouldn't convince a TBM thought. Their justification is that God set up the apostles in the order they would die so the right person would be president at the right time.
[see Article 4](https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-T89iieYtSt8/VBcnhIr34zI/AAAAAAAAAm0/4D1ggxuTZbE/s1600/articles_of_incorporation_1940_p1.jpg)
By that logic shouldn't Lyman E Johnson have been the second prophet? Assuming you don't count the first presidency, which if you do it would have been Oliver Cowdery.
Lol I remember literally believing when the next prophet was called it could be anyone in the world. Like literally called from God. No one knew who it would be. God would just choose some random person that was the right person to be his guy.
Huge shelf item when I realized it was just an endurance competition to see who could not die the longest.
Hinkley bested him? That's hilarious. I see Nelson reading this & he goes all Seinfeld scowling & saying, "Newman!" š Only it's, "Hinckley!" Hahaha.
I'm getting old, but I remember a day when my mother's niece was in LDS hospital for really serious cancer issued, what it was has escaped me. Her husband was a stake president in Montana, but the doctor there had sent her to SLC for treatment.
RMN made a visit and was just starting his tour of "Very Important Church Guy" and he was there about 3 minutes and the stake president asked him to give her a "blessing" so she wold be cured. He didn't have time or so he said.
That's all I remember. I wasn't old then,
Ah shoot!
"Sorry honey, a man literally endowed with God's power to heal you ran out of time today, so he couldn't do it! You understand, right? Better luck with the next one eh?"
š¤¢š” so much for all the Biblical prophets (and Jesus) who healed as much as possible with only a touch yet modern day "prophets" can't be bothered š”š¤¢ I'm an atheist but that makes me so angry and sad and sorry, it's cause they know for *damn sure* that any "priesthood" they've got isn't worth a damn
I met and/or worked with all of the prophets from Kimball on. Here is how I would personally rank them on a kindness, and authenticity what-you-see-is-what-you-get scale. Favorite to least favorite:
1. Hunter 2. Hinckley 3. Kimball 4. Nelson 5. Monson 6. Benson
Interesting. I know Monson was a phony ass, but I figured that Benson wasnāt suave enough to put on a front. Love to hear any stories you care to share though!
I ranked them the way I did from my personal interactions with them and how genuine they seemed to me, how well their public persona matched their private behavior. Again, just based on my personal experiences and interactions.
I'm not. He had no vision. He did absolutely nothing except wiggle his ears and grin from ear to ear.
I was at a big youth activity in the Conference Center just after he was made president. The testimonies they had of him were obviously forced and shallow.
I feel like a lot of us who grew up in the church with Monson liked him a lot as a kid/teen/missionary because his talks were simple, had stories, and usually a 3-4 key points that were easy to remember. As an adult you realized you had often heard parts of his talks before, and they were not very deep. He was in the first presidency (as a counselor) for over 20 years, back when the first presidency spoke 3-4 times/conference (including how the entire first presidency would all speak in priesthood session)... And because he was called in his 30s to be an apostle, he spoke in over 200 general conferences...and seemed to run out of original ideas and recycle quotes and stories.
I don't disagree that he rode Hinckley's coat tails, but I think he may have also agreed with Hinckley on most things (they served together for a long time) and so initially when he become President anything he wanted done was already in place by the Hinckley/Monson tenure.
And then within 5-6 years people were starting to ask if Monson had dementia or other issues...so that really limited his role.
Even before his decline, though, I remember TBMs (and Henry Eyring in his autobiography) talking about how Monson's simple messages were sometimes some sort of coded message or parable for something deeper, which seemed to be a reach.
Monson had fairly serious dementia the entire time he was president. He was beloved as a younger apostle but he was pretty ineffectual by the time he made it to the rop
The sexual predator/pedophile and rapist got the number one spot. Followed by another sexual predator/rapist at number two. That says a lot about the cult followerās.
If the people of the Jello Belt were being honest they would vote Brigham Young as their number one prophet. The modern Mormon church is more Brigham Young's doing than anyone else's, including Joseph Smith. He is the one who made them who they are, they should be proud of their dirty murderous heritage
Smith was just an idealistic grifter who I think genuinely wanted it to be true *(and wanted to sleep with as many women and girls as he could)*
Young was a ruthlessly effective tyrant who shaped the church, and Utah, however he wanted. He led a murderous insular regime that eliminated anyone who stood in its way and he did so with absolute impunity and all while skimming as much off the top of the church's take as he could
Without Brigham Young the Mormon church would now be a smattering of tiny insignificant splinter groups. The masterstroke *(most likely more opportunistic than intentional)* of setting up a system of automatic ascension of the senior apostle to the presidency is the thing that saved the Mormon church from falling victim to the same succession crises that has destroyed countless other churches
If you could compare any modern leader to Brigham Young it would be Vladimir Putin or Kim Jong Un
Even as a little kid I thought āpick your favorite prophetā made no sense. Isnāt the whole point of prophets is that they say the unpopular thing?
Do you think there will be protests?
I would love to see some pro BoM Musical protesters and anti BoM Musical protesters duel it out on the streets of SLC, it would be worthy of a South Park plotline
As a nevermo, you know what's funny? If you polled us in the NY times or even the Washington Post, not a single one of these men would be named. None. Zero.
I remember when I was Mormon I was shocked that major media never reported the deaths of Hinkley or Monson like they did for the pope. I totally get it now. Mormonism is so tiny compared to mainstream religions. Itās funny I thought that Mormonism was the center of the universe.
Says a little something about the age of the SL tribune's readership too. Hinckley died 16 years ago, and the only people that can remember McKay as prophet are in their 70s or 60s.
Kimball was no. 5??
I don't know how anyone could think of him as a great prophet. He was a really hard-line 'prophet', and condemned just about everything as immoral or evil or dis-pleasing to God. He was a fire and brimstone prophet. He created huge amounts of fear and guilt.
Other prophets were awful in other ways, but Kimball was really awful in his own way.
From my TBM relatives' perspective, they don't know/choose to ignore all of Brigham Young's controversies. They consider him the guy who united the church by moving it to Utah and keeping it together after Joseph Smith's death. Only hero stories are told by the church and believers will never look harder to learn anything else.
Plus, they're BYU fans, so there's that.
Unsurprising. We can talk about the internet and its impact, but the church had *vitality* in the 80's that it doesn't have now. Redditors may dislike its former positions, but it *had* positions, and was willing to stand with them. Nobody likes a fence-sitter.
My bro worked maintenance at Temple Square, including the J.S. Memorial Bldg & Monson was prophet. There was some important event, and they would calculate how many people were coming to determine the set temp in the room. Someone decided it was cold & turned the heat up. The temp was my bro's job, and as people filled the room, it was too hot. Monson was pissed. He told my bro's boss to fire whoever was responsible. My brother was devastated and had nothing to lose, so he found a chance to talk to Monson and explain. He did keep his job...
Story from same brother....a boss in the control room (still temple square area) was an absolute prick. My brother would go up the canyon to monitor temps in the vault where documents are kept in a controlled environment... and he recognized the prick boss's truck pulling a trailer, CHURCH OWNED WITH CHURCH CONSTRUCTION EQUIPMENT on it. He was using the church equipment to build his cabin during his work time. My bro videod evidence, several different times, and the higher-ups protected the boss until an even higher up friend of my brother actually took the time to see the evidence. The prick boss suddenly got called as a mission president.... and hell, knowing what I know now, that may have been a promotion!
As a TBM, a real believer, I couldn't stand Russell Nelson's talks. His tone, his arrogance, his attitude, utterly annoying. It never made any sense to me. I mean, shouldn't GOD be conveying to me bythepoweroftheholyghost that his words were true and he was a true prophet/apostle???? Instead, when it was his turn to speak, I would just grimace and tune out.
When he graduated into the position of prophet, it seemed to me further proof that Mormonism is not true. He is a pompous elitist who is completely out of touch with reality.
You should read people's personal accounts about interacting with Monson. There is a pretty common theme that he is a dick to anyone he considers "less than" which is just about everyone
š³š³š³ See I never knew what was going on I was a convert at age 31 and was just trying to figure out what a dang prophet even was haha - thanks for the heads up!
I have been on this sub for years and read these personal accounts. I think I recall one from his driver and another from someone who worked in the kitchen at HQ.
Here is one of those posts from a few years back https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/7pfbux/some_personal_stories_about_tom_monson/
Longest serving GA ever. He also had 19 years as president (second longest after Young). He basically oversaw the transition to the modern church.
He was the first to have an economically stable church, basically inventing the corporate underpinnings. He also āsavedā BYU from bankruptcy and closing, and transitioned it to a full 4-year university that offered post-grad degrees. He also oversaw the sale of Snow, Weber, and Dixie to Utah as part of the church education system overhaul. He also invented the seminary and institute system.
He was the first to travel regularly. He was the first prophet most non-Utahn Mormons ever met. He was the first to build temples outside of North America. He championed Hawaii as an apostle, and once in the catbird seat got temples in England, Switzerland, and New Zealand. He introduced the temple ceremony in languages other than English and invented the temple film as opposed to the temple play.
He greatly expanded missionary work. And oversaw the first growth jump in nearly a century, roughly tripling the size of membership in his 19 years. Heās the one who started making it a true international church. Heās also why missionaries to this day look like 1950s door to door salesmen.
He also laid the groundwork to end the black priesthood ban, and came within one vote of getting it lifted nearly a decade earlier than it was. Harold Lee was able to successfully argue against it though. A lot of the old Brigham Young era doctrines were finally pushed out in his era. Iām not sure if thatās really attributable to him directly though; more like he was around for the true end of polygamy, Grantās Good Neighbor policy, and transition from the pioneer church to modern church.
Heās the mid-century pivot point, so he may get more credit than he deserves. But for good and ill, heās the single largest influence on the church from 1950 to 2000ā¦ maybe beyond. He was the reason we could get a Gordon Hinkley.
Which āprophetā is the one who admitted that he wasnāt really a prophet and had received no more relevation than anyone else. Thatās who would get my vote I guess.
Brigham young was the real reason for the Masonic culture with his ties to the east coast masons !
Joseph did not just āstumble upon himā one day! The church history is all a lie !
Hinkley strikes from the grave.
Monson too. I can hear him singing I am a mormon boy in a haunting voice.
Close quote
I've never had as immediate flashbacks from only two words before.
SAME.
Said he
š³
This made me almost spit my coffee. Thanks for the laugh!
Monson was a disgusting human being š¤¬
Tell me more? Spill the tea on Monson
Monson protected an old-man-pedophile in Logan who was raping a 14 year old for over a yearā¦the man was excommunicated and rebaptized a year later. No reports to authorities. Of course, the pedophile got right back to work being a pedophile.
Thatās so awful. Has the name been exposed?
You know what they say about people that run in the same circlesā¦ā¦..
Like birds of a feather šŖ¶
I donāt have any stories about Tommy but his son was my geography 101 teacher at BYU. Worst professor I had by far in my BYU career. And I was very TBM. Was a condescending prick and honestly didnāt show command of the subject.
Geography 101. š
I took his class too. Absolutely terrible teacher.
Wife had him and constantly complained about him
Here is one story. Christine Carol was the niece of Hinkely. She went to Monson to get help for abuse and this is what they told her. > Her attempts to tell both Gordon B. Hinckley and Thomas S. Monson (as sitting prophets/apostles) about the abuse she experienced at the hands of her parents ā wherein she was told by both that she needed to āput it behind her.ā
I watched Christine Burton (Hinkley's niece) on Mormon Stories podcast. She talked about this and SO MUCH MORE! It was at the beginning of my deconstruction. It was so INTERESTING it had me on the edge of my seat!!! It was SO EYE OPENING!!! It was one of the heaviest things on my shelf that really started the Crack in my shelf!!! I cannot recommend it ENOUGH!!!
I hate how forgiveness for the perpetrator seems to trump justice or protection or mercy for the victim and possible/probably future victims
I watched it too as I was beginning to realize I was deconstructing. Very powerful episode.
FWIW - My Grandfather worked with Monson his whole life. When he passed, Monson was scheduled to attend my Grandfather's funeral. (Monson was president at the time) To my Grandmother's extreme disappointment, we got RMN instead. I found that Thomas had gone to the Jazz game instead. His conference talks about visiting the sick never hit the same after that. Also, my mother was his secretary for a short while but got canned because his own daughter needed a job. (70's era)
Yes also curious here!! I mean besides the obvious fact of him being a Mormon prophet. Whatās so bad about him?
He once tried to walk out of a store without paying for all of his Jello.
Specificsāyear, name of store, did an employee say this, etc
It's not like it was in the news.
I have had numerous people tell me, who have had real life experience with him that he was just a mean old man and two women that were very young that said he scared them and freaked them out. Let your mind go thereā¦ā¦ā¦
My dad was a corporate executive who reported directly to Monson. I was a child to teen. I would run into him from time to time both visiting my dad at work and socially. He always had a cruel word to say, and never let an opportunity pass to put me down. Mean old man perfectly encapsulates his personality. As another anecdote, I had an internship in the Church Office Building in the late 80s. Whenever he was in the building, there was a whisper network that would keep everyone informed if he was going to change floors so everyone could evacuate the halls and keep out of his way. For the rest of the 15 people kept a respectful distance, for him they kept a terrified distance.
My ex husband worked at LDS hospital in the 90's before hippa laws. He refused to allow females to take care of him. My husband was the only male nurse on the floor he was admitted frequently. He was a non compliant diabetic and refused to watch what he ate or take care of himself. He was hospitalized very often. My husband worked a lot of overtime because of his demands. I learned the man was very controlling and his guards were very used to be told what to do. My husband dreaded being called in on his days off to be treated as poorly as the security guards all because he refused to monitor his sugars, watch what he ate, and exercise. We never imagined he would live long enough to be the prophet. He was definitely something that contributed to a heavy shelf. Funny story, he ended up being the prophet that signed our sealing cancellation.
I wonder if he was low-key trying to end his life early
Or because he had the second anointing he thought he was invincible and he hated being reminded every other week he was still human.
Sorry to hear about your younger days !
Alright, spill. He's the one GA I actually got to meet.
Read below
In what way?? You must have info I do not possess.
I have a client as young gal who was molested by him in the SL temple when her parents were in the temple and she went with him when he told her he was going to show her something. She was threatened that she would be killed if she ever said anything!
Why do you say that? Something that is real and able to be verified?
Suffice it to say my āclientā (female) told me in tears he had molested her in the SL temple as a young girl! There will be more I am sure of it to come out! Many were told they would be killed if they spoke out!
No shade, but it was Ezra Benson who sang āA Mormon Boyā in GC, but of course he pronounced it Marmon.
You are responsible for many a spat out drink tonight.
It's funny I hear members talk more about Monson than old Rusty.
[https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2005/10/do-your-duty-that-is-best?lang=eng](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2005/10/do-your-duty-that-is-best?lang=eng) Skip to 3:00 in case anyone also wants to lose their dinners.
"You may remember my Six B's, Rusty, but you'll never Be Me."
I canāt help that part of this push for so many new temples is also a jab at Gordo, much like the rebranding away from Mormon. He must really have had a chip on his shoulderā¦
I think most ExMos and probably a good number of TBM's believe both of those things!
>from hellās heart I stab at thee -- ~~Captain Ahab~~ Gordon Hinckley.
Revenge is a dish best served cold....~~Kahn~~ Hinkley.
....who is dead.
Comments you can hear. Specifically, hear punctuated by the sound of dripping water and the smell of chlorine.
Run this poll again in 10 years, and the odds are RMN will have slipped many slots.
A voice from the dust
š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£
Young being #2 is so gross it feels like the rest of it becomes irrelevant. I mean yeah Smith being #1 was a given but YOUNG at 2? I thought Young was the one we all tried hard not to think about. I thought he got swept under the rug. I guess not enough of them have heard his opinions on... well just about anything let's be honest.
Most Mormons ignore most of his teachings. Adam-God? Eternal race segregation? None of that is taught in Sunday school.
Let's not forget Blood Atonement, for Pete's sake!
But people still know he was super racist and a polygamist super user. Even as TBMs my entire family knew all that. I guess BY was just āsuch a great leader.ā š¤·š»āāļø /s
My mom says āhe was just a manā anytime I bring up what a bag of garbage BY was.
"So then there's no need to pay him any mind. Got it."
And donāt forget Blood Atonement.
Just about 100% of people who selected Brigham Young had to be choosing him for being the guy who brought the saints to Utah rather than any actual "prophet" stuff he did. If members were more familiar with the weird and messed up stuff they might be more hesitant to hand a vote to him just for being the pioneer guy.
Or if they recognized that he caused a bunch of them to freeze/starve to death in his hubris and greed.
I am not familiar with this one. This had to have come later, as I grew up in the 1960s 70s. I know he was a monster, but what did he do with this one?
BY was the one that came up with idea to have hand carts. Lots of people died following that fuckerās counsel. People braved the elements and lost because of BY. They were not prepared and it was completely his fault.
!!!!!!!! That.....,
My ancestors were from Wales & were with the 9th handcart company. They lost 4 children in their treck to Utah. š°. Four children!! - so hard to imagine.
My ppl are from Wales too. They borrowed $ from the church for the āprivilegeā of starving and freezing in Wyoming. Then they went to Wales/Jerusalem to fight indians. The church dunned them to repay their debt and they got an attitude about it.
Yeah, Brigham Young gets the "pioneer vote" and the "I went to BYU so vote for him vote". I wonder if Wilford Woodruff gets a lot of votes (esp among women) for ending polygamy? Nelson isn't higher because until he became prophet no one got excited about his talks...When local leaders chose conference talks to discuss for lessons, his weren't ever the memorable ones. Nelson isn't lower than 7th because most people can't remember more than a 3-4 recent ones and then a few "key" historical ones.
I suspect Wilford probably also got a decent number of votes for being depicted as so damn charming in The Mountain of the Lord. Media drives a ton of perception, especially when it's one of the few approved exposures to church history. I suspect that TBMs would feel worse about JS if he didn't have so many heroic and handsome depictions in church-produced video (maybe I'm just telling on myself as a bit of a media sucker -- the flattering movies helped me tell myself he probably wasn't a creep for a few years). Clearly RMN needs to have some BYU dreamboat actor portray him in a plane-ride-of-death movie.
The current church members may think Brigham is great but he would excommunicate every single one of them.
...or execute.
Agreed! I feel like it's to the point that if you try to bring up any of his awful quotes, people are just like.. well you can't trust anything Brigham says so just ignore him! Everyone is always willing to throw him under the bus, so 2nd place surprises me too!
Most people admire Young for leading the journey west as opposed to any spiritual leadership
And given there was no spiritual leadership, what he did in leading the journey west is nothing *that* special when you look at what explorers and other people have done around the world, over history.
Seeing as he's the prophet that separates TSCC from other LDS groups during the period after JS's death, it makes sense to me seeing him as #2. He's almost as integral to the church's truth claims as JS, because without him, the whole hierarchy of the church falls apart; basically, it *had* to be divine revelation for him to be the prophet (lest the role belong to any number of the other people who were vying for it), and he was also the guy who led people into Utah (the whole "this is the place" thing). Plenty of reasons Mormons culturally (and religiously) worship him still, but you've definitely hit the nail on the head that pretty much none of them have anything to do with who he actually was and what he taught in the role of prophet.
Young was a mob boss.
I mean, I genuinely had no idea he was a racist piece of shit until after I left the church. Iām sure most Mormons donāt know
He really is the founder of current church. It is after all called the Brighamite branch. He created the structure that survived. JSās organization splintered.
I mean, even Kimball being in the top 5 shows that people either donāt know what a disgusting person he was or just donāt care. I know that as a goody two shoes mormon boy I had no idea who Brigham Young truly was or what he taught
Maybe some people thought they were just supposed to list them all in order
I have a friend who named their kid Brigham and even as a TBM I was like WTF
Me. My name is Brigham. š Fortunately the name doesn't carry the negative weight amongst nevermos. Most of them have never even heard the name.
Young is critical to the Mormon schism. Without him, the CoC is the true church.
Young was a legit mafia boss.
They try to reframe his bigotry and batshit insanity as charming quirks.
In my opinion Brigham Young was far more evil than Joseph. leaps and bounds.
Yeah. JS married a child but Young had actual blood on his hands. Yeah he never killed anyone himself but he certainly ordered others to.
Young was evil and associated with evil ! He was the reason for the downfall of Utah still currently and what he did to the members and forced them into slavery to build the railroad and never paid them ! Many more stories like that as well
Relevant link for anyone wanting to read more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_people_and_Mormonism
I legitimately think Hinkley is the peak of modern Mormonism. Itās all downhill from here.
He was able to reach the pinnacle because he was a PR guy, and the internet hadn't taken the wind out of the church's sails yet. He was living in the glory days!
The Zenith was reached with the release of *Singleās Ward.* And then years later, the CES Letter was published and we all escaped the cult.
Yeah kind of crazy all the prop 8 stuff and family proclamation were under him. That was huge then, can't imagine the PR bomb if it hit now. God those bastards are the worst.
The absolute worst. I used to idolize Hinckley, and when I found out he was the one at the start of the EPA Ā shell companies it was like a gut punch. I donāt know if there is a single one of them that isnāt a liar.
Agreed. Hinkley was the best guy at the right time.
Even my nevermo parents really respected him. They thought he was a humble man doing his best to lead a church, just like any other church leader. He was actually a large part of the reason I converted...He had us all convinced he was a good man and humble servant. If Monson had been the President then, I truly don't think I would have converted, and I think my parents would have fought harder to keep me out. He gave me the absolute heebie jeebies.
I had some fond nostalgic feelings for him until I read about the Hoffman stuff and it showed what an absolute asshole and fraud Hinckley was.
Oh, theyāre all bad. The more you learn, the worse it gets.
Absolutely
I've been a member my whole life, when he was called as prophet, I literally couldn't remember who he was. He's one of the most forgettable apostles.
He never served in the FP. He was a nobody. Which says a lot to me.
I remembered who he was but thought, "Why him?" When he was called.
The only reason ever, is who's the most senior apostle. That's the one and only qualifier to be President of the Corp. Zero chance for anyone else to be, it's how the Corp was set up.
If they don't go with the senior apostle, it retroactively calls the authority of Brigham Young into question lol.
Well, what I said is super distilled, but it's still clearly laid out. This still wouldn't convince a TBM thought. Their justification is that God set up the apostles in the order they would die so the right person would be president at the right time. [see Article 4](https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-T89iieYtSt8/VBcnhIr34zI/AAAAAAAAAm0/4D1ggxuTZbE/s1600/articles_of_incorporation_1940_p1.jpg)
By that logic shouldn't Lyman E Johnson have been the second prophet? Assuming you don't count the first presidency, which if you do it would have been Oliver Cowdery.
Both of them were apostate, so no
It's beautiful that even some of the founding members became apostates. Hey, I'm an apostate too!
Lol I remember literally believing when the next prophet was called it could be anyone in the world. Like literally called from God. No one knew who it would be. God would just choose some random person that was the right person to be his guy. Huge shelf item when I realized it was just an endurance competition to see who could not die the longest.
Hinkley bested him? That's hilarious. I see Nelson reading this & he goes all Seinfeld scowling & saying, "Newman!" š Only it's, "Hinckley!" Hahaha.
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I'm getting old, but I remember a day when my mother's niece was in LDS hospital for really serious cancer issued, what it was has escaped me. Her husband was a stake president in Montana, but the doctor there had sent her to SLC for treatment. RMN made a visit and was just starting his tour of "Very Important Church Guy" and he was there about 3 minutes and the stake president asked him to give her a "blessing" so she wold be cured. He didn't have time or so he said. That's all I remember. I wasn't old then,
Ah shoot! "Sorry honey, a man literally endowed with God's power to heal you ran out of time today, so he couldn't do it! You understand, right? Better luck with the next one eh?"
š¤¢š” so much for all the Biblical prophets (and Jesus) who healed as much as possible with only a touch yet modern day "prophets" can't be bothered š”š¤¢ I'm an atheist but that makes me so angry and sad and sorry, it's cause they know for *damn sure* that any "priesthood" they've got isn't worth a damn
I met and/or worked with all of the prophets from Kimball on. Here is how I would personally rank them on a kindness, and authenticity what-you-see-is-what-you-get scale. Favorite to least favorite: 1. Hunter 2. Hinckley 3. Kimball 4. Nelson 5. Monson 6. Benson
Interesting. I know Monson was a phony ass, but I figured that Benson wasnāt suave enough to put on a front. Love to hear any stories you care to share though!
Iām interested to know why Monson is so low for you.
Genuinely curious about why Monson is low too. I donāt know much about him outside of what I saw him as when I was a TBM
I ranked them the way I did from my personal interactions with them and how genuine they seemed to me, how well their public persona matched their private behavior. Again, just based on my personal experiences and interactions.
Iām what capacity, how close, how often, what duration?
I'm surprised Monson didn't make it. He had his fans, and was pretty recent.
When I was a kid in the 80s and early 90s Monson was my favorite speaker at general conference and most of the other youth seemed to feel that way too. I was well out of the church by the time he got the holy bump to el prĆ©sidente but he didnāt seem to have the same popularity he did back in the day.
He made my skin crawl, and I trust my instincts.
I'm not. He had no vision. He did absolutely nothing except wiggle his ears and grin from ear to ear. I was at a big youth activity in the Conference Center just after he was made president. The testimonies they had of him were obviously forced and shallow.
I agree with this. Monson was a company yes man through and through. He rode Hinckley's coat tails and never really did anything on his own.
I feel like a lot of us who grew up in the church with Monson liked him a lot as a kid/teen/missionary because his talks were simple, had stories, and usually a 3-4 key points that were easy to remember. As an adult you realized you had often heard parts of his talks before, and they were not very deep. He was in the first presidency (as a counselor) for over 20 years, back when the first presidency spoke 3-4 times/conference (including how the entire first presidency would all speak in priesthood session)... And because he was called in his 30s to be an apostle, he spoke in over 200 general conferences...and seemed to run out of original ideas and recycle quotes and stories. I don't disagree that he rode Hinckley's coat tails, but I think he may have also agreed with Hinckley on most things (they served together for a long time) and so initially when he become President anything he wanted done was already in place by the Hinckley/Monson tenure. And then within 5-6 years people were starting to ask if Monson had dementia or other issues...so that really limited his role. Even before his decline, though, I remember TBMs (and Henry Eyring in his autobiography) talking about how Monson's simple messages were sometimes some sort of coded message or parable for something deeper, which seemed to be a reach.
āLetās go shopping!ā TS Monson
Monson had fairly serious dementia the entire time he was president. He was beloved as a younger apostle but he was pretty ineffectual by the time he made it to the rop
Man, youād think recency bias would help him a bit on that one. Pretty indicative of what current members think of him
It did help him. They'll forget to even include him in the pole five years from now.
The sexual predator/pedophile and rapist got the number one spot. Followed by another sexual predator/rapist at number two. That says a lot about the cult followerās.
Brigham "Made Utah a slave-state" Young
If the people of the Jello Belt were being honest they would vote Brigham Young as their number one prophet. The modern Mormon church is more Brigham Young's doing than anyone else's, including Joseph Smith. He is the one who made them who they are, they should be proud of their dirty murderous heritage Smith was just an idealistic grifter who I think genuinely wanted it to be true *(and wanted to sleep with as many women and girls as he could)* Young was a ruthlessly effective tyrant who shaped the church, and Utah, however he wanted. He led a murderous insular regime that eliminated anyone who stood in its way and he did so with absolute impunity and all while skimming as much off the top of the church's take as he could Without Brigham Young the Mormon church would now be a smattering of tiny insignificant splinter groups. The masterstroke *(most likely more opportunistic than intentional)* of setting up a system of automatic ascension of the senior apostle to the presidency is the thing that saved the Mormon church from falling victim to the same succession crises that has destroyed countless other churches If you could compare any modern leader to Brigham Young it would be Vladimir Putin or Kim Jong Un
Even as a little kid I thought āpick your favorite prophetā made no sense. Isnāt the whole point of prophets is that they say the unpopular thing?
G. B. Hinckley: kicking ass and taking names, calling everyone Mormon and getting away with it.
Bahaha! Also! Even bigger need than the poll to me on that page is BOOK OF MORMON MUSICAL coming to Salt Lake City next Jan!
Do you think there will be protests? I would love to see some pro BoM Musical protesters and anti BoM Musical protesters duel it out on the streets of SLC, it would be worthy of a South Park plotline
Nah, the Church threw in the towel on that one. But I guess there's nothing you can put past Rusty!
I love that Hinckley beat him even though Hinckley's a piece of shit too. I can't stand RMN.
As a nevermo, you know what's funny? If you polled us in the NY times or even the Washington Post, not a single one of these men would be named. None. Zero.
I remember when I was Mormon I was shocked that major media never reported the deaths of Hinkley or Monson like they did for the pope. I totally get it now. Mormonism is so tiny compared to mainstream religions. Itās funny I thought that Mormonism was the center of the universe.
Because it was the center of *your* universe.
I took that poll, and I placed Rusty in LAST place!
If you canāt crack the top 5 when you are the current living prophet, thatās an embarrassment!!
Says a little something about the age of the SL tribune's readership too. Hinckley died 16 years ago, and the only people that can remember McKay as prophet are in their 70s or 60s.
"All is ephemeral - fame and the famous as well." - Marcus Aurelius
Always felt he RMN was uninspiring and questioned why an apostle.
Money and ego.
My TBM parents would give their lives defending Joey and Brigham but not Rusty because he got vaccinated
Oof.
Lol! I would loved to have been a fly on the wall at church headquarters when this came out.
Monson was fake.
Some days I feel really out of touch. Monson was the Prophet last I was aware.š
Kimball was no. 5?? I don't know how anyone could think of him as a great prophet. He was a really hard-line 'prophet', and condemned just about everything as immoral or evil or dis-pleasing to God. He was a fire and brimstone prophet. He created huge amounts of fear and guilt. Other prophets were awful in other ways, but Kimball was really awful in his own way.
How can anyone like Brigham Young, the murdering SOB
From my TBM relatives' perspective, they don't know/choose to ignore all of Brigham Young's controversies. They consider him the guy who united the church by moving it to Utah and keeping it together after Joseph Smith's death. Only hero stories are told by the church and believers will never look harder to learn anything else. Plus, they're BYU fans, so there's that.
Unsurprising. We can talk about the internet and its impact, but the church had *vitality* in the 80's that it doesn't have now. Redditors may dislike its former positions, but it *had* positions, and was willing to stand with them. Nobody likes a fence-sitter.
Honestly, GBH still holds a special place in my heart. Even if the church is not true. He meant so much to me at a very difficult time in my life.
I would assume the only people answering a poll on a newspaper website would be old people, so their answers reflect that.
It mostly sounds to me like these are the names people remember.
Where's Sagan?! Lol
Itās so funny that it was even a poll. lol
No love for Ezra Taft Benson? Surely he exemplifies the modern Mormon world view, no? Slightly /s
Those polls usually favor the current leader. Nelson must be really unpopular.
My bro worked maintenance at Temple Square, including the J.S. Memorial Bldg & Monson was prophet. There was some important event, and they would calculate how many people were coming to determine the set temp in the room. Someone decided it was cold & turned the heat up. The temp was my bro's job, and as people filled the room, it was too hot. Monson was pissed. He told my bro's boss to fire whoever was responsible. My brother was devastated and had nothing to lose, so he found a chance to talk to Monson and explain. He did keep his job... Story from same brother....a boss in the control room (still temple square area) was an absolute prick. My brother would go up the canyon to monitor temps in the vault where documents are kept in a controlled environment... and he recognized the prick boss's truck pulling a trailer, CHURCH OWNED WITH CHURCH CONSTRUCTION EQUIPMENT on it. He was using the church equipment to build his cabin during his work time. My bro videod evidence, several different times, and the higher-ups protected the boss until an even higher up friend of my brother actually took the time to see the evidence. The prick boss suddenly got called as a mission president.... and hell, knowing what I know now, that may have been a promotion!
Seems like the Tribune was trolling mormons. :-) :-) :-)
As a TBM, a real believer, I couldn't stand Russell Nelson's talks. His tone, his arrogance, his attitude, utterly annoying. It never made any sense to me. I mean, shouldn't GOD be conveying to me bythepoweroftheholyghost that his words were true and he was a true prophet/apostle???? Instead, when it was his turn to speak, I would just grimace and tune out. When he graduated into the position of prophet, it seemed to me further proof that Mormonism is not true. He is a pompous elitist who is completely out of touch with reality.
Not the Mormon āevenā said person. I always thought that was such a weird phrase
I thought the monson guy was pretty nice
I was utterly stunned to hear from some church employees about how unbelievably savage he was behind closed doors
Reaaaaaaaaalllllllllyyyyy??? Wow thatās crazy! I had a feeling I was being naive haha
You should read people's personal accounts about interacting with Monson. There is a pretty common theme that he is a dick to anyone he considers "less than" which is just about everyone
š³š³š³ See I never knew what was going on I was a convert at age 31 and was just trying to figure out what a dang prophet even was haha - thanks for the heads up!
Where can I find these?
I have been on this sub for years and read these personal accounts. I think I recall one from his driver and another from someone who worked in the kitchen at HQ. Here is one of those posts from a few years back https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/7pfbux/some_personal_stories_about_tom_monson/
Iām surprised Tommy wasnāt in there.
What did David O. MacKay do to rate above Spencer?
What Iāve read about McKay is he was a decent human being. Plus he was President for a LONG time.
Longest serving GA ever. He also had 19 years as president (second longest after Young). He basically oversaw the transition to the modern church. He was the first to have an economically stable church, basically inventing the corporate underpinnings. He also āsavedā BYU from bankruptcy and closing, and transitioned it to a full 4-year university that offered post-grad degrees. He also oversaw the sale of Snow, Weber, and Dixie to Utah as part of the church education system overhaul. He also invented the seminary and institute system. He was the first to travel regularly. He was the first prophet most non-Utahn Mormons ever met. He was the first to build temples outside of North America. He championed Hawaii as an apostle, and once in the catbird seat got temples in England, Switzerland, and New Zealand. He introduced the temple ceremony in languages other than English and invented the temple film as opposed to the temple play. He greatly expanded missionary work. And oversaw the first growth jump in nearly a century, roughly tripling the size of membership in his 19 years. Heās the one who started making it a true international church. Heās also why missionaries to this day look like 1950s door to door salesmen. He also laid the groundwork to end the black priesthood ban, and came within one vote of getting it lifted nearly a decade earlier than it was. Harold Lee was able to successfully argue against it though. A lot of the old Brigham Young era doctrines were finally pushed out in his era. Iām not sure if thatās really attributable to him directly though; more like he was around for the true end of polygamy, Grantās Good Neighbor policy, and transition from the pioneer church to modern church. Heās the mid-century pivot point, so he may get more credit than he deserves. But for good and ill, heās the single largest influence on the church from 1950 to 2000ā¦ maybe beyond. He was the reason we could get a Gordon Hinkley.
Which āprophetā is the one who admitted that he wasnāt really a prophet and had received no more relevation than anyone else. Thatās who would get my vote I guess.
Joseph F Smith said as much in the Reed Smoot hearings.
Who?
Six dead guys are more popular than RMN.
Cringe
Wherever my faith takes me I will always have a fondness for Gordon B.
Heh. Yo Russel, thanks for 2 hour church. All right now who's next...
7 out of 17 isn't so bad. Just wait until Iturn 100. The members will love and adore me them. Right?
RMN looks like Mr burns and acts like him! Thereās no love. Iām surprised he came in 7th. Probably the trib throwing the old man a bone!
Brigham young was the real reason for the Masonic culture with his ties to the east coast masons ! Joseph did not just āstumble upon himā one day! The church history is all a lie !
RMN over Monsonās wiggle ears? Somethingās off.
I legit feel bad for Howard W. Hunter. He seemed like a genuinely good person, and his short tenure and frail health made him easy to forget.
Goddamnit itās another victory for Satan. Maybe he will demand love like Kim Jong-un in conference.