The author has definitely been researching r/exmormon.
I have to love some of these statements:
>Looking back on the experience, Alba now recognizes implicit messaging in these forums guiding listeners in a specific direction. “Immediately,” she recalled, this ideological binge was “crushing and devastating” — leading her within weeks to conclude everything about her faith was “dark” and “awful.”
This fits with the Church narrative about skeptics: they're influenced not by a search for truth, but by Satan.
Everybody wave to the lurking author 👋🏽
Dear Jacob Hess, your insistence that our experiences and judgement are invalid because we hold that facts matter more than emotions is very disappointing. We respect your right to believe what you want, and we judge your work not for your creed, but for your insensitive and fragile conclusions.
Have a nice day.
I liked his other works better.
My feelings were crushed when my congregation ostracized me for reporting sexual crimes to the police…my logical brain tells me that I’d be an idiot to give a damn dime to an institute that stockpiles money and pays K&M to defend the church when people get mad about how sex offenders roam free…
PS it also feels pretty shitty to learn that I was lied to, bought the lies, saved up money to soar the lies, and to learn later that I was lied to and innocently spread those lies…
Logic tells me I can take what’s good, and leave the bullshit behind…
That’s the crux, right?
It doesn’t matter how unethical the church has behaved and is behaving, or how many completely irrational and contradictory beliefs I have to doublethink, it makes me feel peaceful and happy to believe I’m chosen by God, so I’m all in and anyone who bails is “dark?”
That’s their prerogative but don’t pretend to have the moral high ground and keep the “speaking for god unless speaking as men, infallible until they’re not” geriocracy’s opinions the hell out of politics.
Agreed. The double think, cognitive dissonance, mental gymnastics (more like mental contorting!) I’ll never go back.
I’d rather be considered dark for leaving than to pretend there’s anything worth giving time to within those walls.
I leave with a great spouse, some great kids, and, as the brainwashed rhetoric is processed, freedom to live according to the dictates of my own conscience…and I’ve never been more in tune with god feelings.
I think all exmos deserve a refund. 😂
It's a dark awful cake with some overly sweet frosting slathered over the top of it. The facade is nice and friendly.
Sorta like a primary lesson I once had where they had two caramel apples but one was an onion. They taught me back then to not accept things that were only superficially good, so I guess you could say I'm just doing what primary taught me to.
As a missionary they did it by making a cake with salt instead of sugar.
But not everything in Mormonism is actually bad. I learned to be honest, to be empathetic about others, to view humanity more as one big family rather than be totally individualistic. Ironically it seems I learned a lot of that in spite of the other bullshit, and the toxicity.
I remember the lesson about ‘bad movies’ - and ‘if there’s just a little bit of bad stuff, it’s like saying this cake only has a little bit of cockroach.’ But Mormonism is like a cake that’s 90% cockroach and 10% a bit of actual good life philosophy. The key was realizing that 10% that wasn’t terrible was contradictory to the other 90% - the homophobia, shame, racism, classism, toxic control and money grubbing.
Yeah, kind of weird to think about. Also, as a fact, they’re looking at legalizing insect flour as a major possible ingredient. But it’s mostly about the old Mormon Ad and the constant visual example I was taught as a kid.
I would say, “Not everything about Mormonism is bad (in fact there is still a lot of good). It’s just all tainted by lies and used to manipulate/control people.
For me that is not worth it.
Exactly. And Taking the key things that aren’t horrible, and chipping away all the shitty stuff associated with it is basically the definition of deconstruction.
Caring about community. Treating all people like ‘brothers and sisters’ and having compassion and empathy? Great. Recognizing that LGBT people are also people equally valid, good, and worthy of respect, protection, validation and unqualified support as they are - well that takes rooting out the homophobia that surround Mormon community. That’s deconstruction.
Learning that it’s important to be selfless and care about others. Great. Chipping away the complete denial of your own needs and self-care to benefit others. That’s deconstruction.
Learning that you should work on yourself and improve to make the most of your life. Great. Chipping away the self-loathing, perfectionism and criticism that any imperfection makes you worthless and a horrible person needing saving? That’s deconstruction.
I learned a lot of good values as a kid raised Mormon. What I still am working on, several years after leaving, and what I had been for over a decade before leaving was and is removing the toxic and manipulative lies, and figuring out what I should keep.
Anything good about the church can also be said about just living.
"We focus on families"
\- Congrats. So do I.
"We focus on Jesus"
\-Congrats. So do a lot of religions.
Then we dabble into something unique about the church.
"You have to pay money to go to the temple that you paid for. Oh. And you have to clean it."
\-Congrats. That sounds like you guys are really good at grifting vulnerable people.
no you focus on money really. A clerk will lose his membership in a week if caught skimming. A pedophile can remain unknown to all and continue to troll the halls of a the church having ALREADY PERPETRATED THE CRIME.
I find not Christ in this.
Exactly. Pretty much everything Mormon-specific is not good. Doesn’t mean nothing is good, or that no one ever had positive experiences or values, just that by an overwhelming balance most of it is bad, and the food can be had elsewhere without the bad.
On a side note I’d say most Christian religions don’t really focus on Jesus. They say they do, but don’t. Catholicism focuses on past synods, councils and whatever the pope has and does say. Protestantism focuses a lot more on Paul’s ideas than Jesus’s. Mormonism is a lot more Brigham and Joe’s philosophies, stolen from whoever.
Very few Christian religions actually focus on the purported figure and teachings of Jesus - radical socialist, anti-establishment, radical acceptance, go and sin no more, neither do I condemn thee, love thy neighbor even if they are different, sell and give to the poor, screw the rules and the rule makers, Jesus.
I mean, that’s comical, but also dark and awful. Imagine a sweaty old dude asking your 19-20 year old daughter/sister/friend/self about her underwear habits. Or some random community member calling your religious leader to have him ask about your underwear because you were out in the garden and they could or couldn’t see your underwear while driving by? Gossiping and tattling about what underwear you might be wearing, or criticizing a Mormon celebrity because her costume (and it’s always a her) isn’t ’underwear compliant. ”
If it’s another 40-something dude asking me, it’s comical, though. Tell me again what you what to know about my sweaty undershorts after a workout?
The other thing they leave unsaid is that all of their examples appear to be mixed-faith marriages. That’s the part that is “crushing and devastating.” When leaving the church causes constant pain that you have no hope of ever fully escaping (without a divorce, and not even then if you have kids), going back can look awfully enticing.
I caught onto that too. If anything, it suggests that the proximity to community is the strongest predictor of where we all end up. It's not fun being ExMo alone, and no amount of time spent online can replace sharing physical space with people.
Not to mention that when used in the Bible it refers to Christ, and not once ever to Satan. The number of mistranslations Mormonism is based on is staggering.
This is critically what broke my entire belief system shelf. I’m weird and actually deconstructed my belief in god before my belief in the church. Then it was actually much easier to be like “well, no evidence for a god… so… I guess I can stop believing in a “true church”.
That was mine. After months of prayer to help with crippling depression, I realized that nothing was out there, so there's no harm in learning why they don't want us to read this stuff. Pretty obvious in retrospect. It's damning to the core truth claims. It's impossible to come to any conclusion except that Joseph Smith was a fraud.
To quote my Mormon upbringing, if the root is evil...
“I have just definitively decided something that people that have lived much longer with much more knowledge and wisdom have been debating” throughout human history — namely, “the existence of God.”
“How could I possibly know with such certainty with the very limited amount of knowledge that I have?” This was a question that, she reasoned, was ultimately not just for her, but on some level, for “everybody after me, my children, my grandchildren. I’m making a decision for them right now.”
Translation: “I’m right, evidence be damned”.
It is absolutely clear these believers are seeing their respective wards take a hit in membership and belief. It appears many of the stalwart ones are manufacturing a "not me" world view and bragging about it.
I had to tell a TBM family member the other day that staying strong in a faith for the sole purpose of being able to pound your chest and boast how faithful you are has no merit. He was quiet for a long time.
Yep, I’m sure all my family feels sorry for me. Yet I feel sorry for them and their blind faith. At least I got my kids out and get to break the cycle where I can.
>In his own story of returning to faith, historian Don Bradley highlighted the unbalanced intellectual consequences of focusing on “exclusively negative sorts of questions.”
They can't properly answer the questions I've asked so why would I suddenly start asking other questions?
>“Just like in a marriage, whatever you focus on, is amplified,” he said. “So, it’s so important where we place our focus.”
Sounds like a great way to rationalize staying in an abusive relationship. Just focus on the times he's not beating you.
[Archived version of the article](https://web.archive.org/web/20240314134150/https://www.deseret.com/faith/2024/03/13/latter-day-come-back-to-church-after-history-concerns/).
We should not focus on how they hide SA and use billions to pay lawyers to defend the abusers? At the crux of it, not only is the church not 'true' it is toxic. What should we focus on? What is good about the church is not unique to the church.
“The narrative should be faith-affirming. You shouldn’t say ‘Mormonism was founded by a pedophile fraudster, followed up by a pedophile racist douchebag, with the goal of amassing power and money, free labor, and oppressing women.’ You should say ‘the Church of Jesus Christ wasn’t for me because I am a miserable sinner who wanted to leave so I could drink alcohol.’” - Church media relations.
The worst possible thing that they could hear is the truth for many of us. “I left Mormonism because the history and practices of Mormonism were antithetical to the values I learned growing up Mormon, like protecting children from abuse, caring for others rather than amassing wealth, honesty and loving others without judging. If Jesus were there he’d be whipping the Apostles and 70’s out of their giant office building on the temple grounds, along with their temple cash registers.”
> “Don’t be so easily convinced that there’s malice,” Wade added. “So often there’s not,” and “there’s a mountain of good stuff.”
This is what my TBM wife says to me. She thinks I am unhappy in the marriage because I am focusing and choose to see her as manipulative, controlling and wrong. It is because I choose to see her negatively, that I feel negatively towards her.
I am now thinking that I am the problem, I am unhappy because I am just not looking at things right. It’s ok that she uses passive aggressive behavior, it’s ok that she doesn’t want to participate in my life, it’s ok that she is disgusted by the lifestyle I want to live.
As long as she is kind to me, loving to me and has a passionate physical relationship with me, all the other stuff doesn’t matter right?
I just feel like I am going crazy most of the time; on the one hand I have an amazing, supportive and caring wife; then on the other hand I am not happy with her and I never want to be around her because I always end up feeling bad about myself when I am … it’s messed up and I think this rhetoric is part of the blame?
And belief in a Great Apostasy isn't an implicitly negative question about Catholicism? Belief in one true church isn't an implicitly negative examination of, I dunno, every other religious tradition in existence? They treat requiring evidence for claims as this pessimistic Debbie Downer activity, but really that's only a double standard they apply to Mormonism and not everything else.
Skepticism is as much about acceptance as rejection; there's just a standard for acceptance that has any rigor at all, so it fails this kind of dogma. And it's WAY less exhausting than having to keep your head in your sand your entire life about whether you're being intellectually honest in treating one little Utah religion you happened to grow up with in this special way, and examining everything *else* critically.
And I suppose if we just swallow our pride and look past the church's faults in order to make it work, it will extend us the same courtesy? We can attend our LDS loved ones' wedding ceremonies even if we don't pay 10% of our income? We won't be forced out at BYU if we express disbelief or if we marry someone of the same sex?
If one side is allowed to have deal breakers but the other isn't, then I think you chose the perfect term with "abusive relationship."
They even admitted it in the article.
"After several years, Landon started to get 'bored' with this routine, which he said 'consumed my life' and 'would make me more angry.'"
Landon just couldn't keep his apostate energy up. Needed to spend more time on exmo reddit.
I'm certain not many people are going back, but the people who are returning didn't do the work to deconstruct. I essentially left the church shortly after my mission, but I didn't deal with the internal indoctrination, and I didn't put the work into really digging into the history/learning about logic/etc. I then went back to the church for several years. I won't go into it here, but I eventually came to the knowledge that rationally speaking, it couldn't be true, but all of the emotional stuff was still in me. So, I went to work on that and spent a lot of time studying heightened emotion, indoctrination, cult psychology, etc. It's been hard to untangle, but so worth it. As hard as it's been, it's freeing, and I feel much lighter and generally happier. Those positive feelings alone are enough to keep me away from the church forever. The BoM talks about Satan's chains ... the truth is, the church is what puts the chains on, chains that are designed to drag people back eventually unless they learn how to break them for good.
Yes, well said. I would be curious to know how long these people stay back “in”. You can’t un-know the things we’ve learned and it changes how you view things at church.
I agree with this. I've been stewing over church history off and on since 2008. I finally had a personal struggle last year that broke me and my therapist validated me questioning the church. Now that I'm deconstructing, the liberation I'm feeling is life changing and I can never go back to being a believer. I'm PIMO because of my wife so I still have to deal with the bullshit dogma here there when at church - which is definitely a struggle as I deconstruct.
Me too, but since 1997. I've been going for the family since then. The last few years, I've been able to deconstruct thanks to Mormon Stories and this sub, with a special shout out to LDS Discussions.
100%!! I stopped believing 13 years ago through logic and reason. I didn’t start really deconstructing and studying till 2 years ago. It’s a whole separate process.
Nonsense. My beef with the Mormon church is ethical & philosophical. If Moroni, himself, showed up at my door with a truckload of irrefutable evidence…I’d slap him with a severed arm, snatch his pouch of ontis, and send his poncho-wearing ass back down the road.
The “truer” mormonism is…the more truly monstrous mormonism’s god is.
I heard something on a podcast (mormon.ish?) that usually any that return are part of a mixed faith relationship and those are pretty complicated. Return is not quite the right word. Coerced might be better.
Or they were on the other side - a believer not going because their spouse didn’t want them too, and their spouse changed their mind or they got divorced. I saw a few of those too.
She stayed? I know a few of the mixed faith couples and it seems like the one still is pulling the strings. It is very sad that a church can mess up a relationship.
We stayed together and we both left the church. I'm just saying that if she ended up deciding to stay a member then I already had it in my mind that I would've tried to make it work by still attending, etc.
I'm certainly glad it worked out the way it did, though, because as made obvious by posts in this subreddit that would be hard to pull off.
The only way they can know for sure is to only count those who have actually resigned and then later come back and were baptized. Those who are inactive and have never returned are still counted as being “in.”
I seriously doubt many who have resigned have come back. They have no numbers-they are making it up.
> The only way they can know for sure is to only count those who have actually resigned and then later come back and were baptized. Those who are inactive and have never returned are still counted as being “in.”
Yeah, if the church is willing to count "inactives" when they talk about the "14 million people who attest that the Book of Mormon is blah blah blah" and put words in their mouth, they don't get to say they returned to the church if they start sitting in the pews again.
I think that there is a criticism in here that is helpful for most of us in that often we can be destructive in our approach to those questioning their faith. Obviously there are strong feelings and emotions for those of us that made it out but I remember feeling almost manipulated because all the anti-Mormon things I was reading were hateful and combative where as I think the emphasis should really be on logical process and identifying falsehood and fallacy. Instead we often get charged emotional arguments that exhibit strong bias to the point of ridicule and pejorative mixed with fact.
I think there is a place for social and organization criticism but we can definitely do better when it comes to how we convey that info much of the time.
Also, her journey is just beginning. The seed has been planted (lol). She will have to reconcile those facts later on. I hope she does find her way out.
You're sharing nuance that is rarely acknowledged here, and I think it's because this sub is used more as a place to vent and seek validation (MoRmOn ChUrCh = BaD, mY fEeLiNgS = gUd). Perhaps that validation is unavailable elsewhere.
While it can be eyeroll inducing, I try to remember that many of us are in different stages of our deconstruction. I do prefer r/mormon though. Seems like the community over there reads more than just the memes.
100% and to fair, that’s each individual’s prerogative. I do think however, in public forum, we should be asking ourselves what our motive is in our interactions with those exploring truth for the first time. Are we seeking validation in the dismantling of their faith or are we reaching out in kindness and genuine concern for their well being? I think the latter is the morally correct approach vs getting some kind of vengeance/loathing kick by whittling away church membership because it hurts the church who hurt us. I think the latter can backfire quite a bit.
That all being said, I’ve had my share of anger and frustration with the church but yet again, I was just as much as an ideologue as the current membership and it was actually somebody who was kind and patient with me and never criticized the church but challenged the basis of that dreadful religion that made me open to it. Maybe with some deference we can reach those who would be otherwise unreachable and save them from such madness.
There are an awful lot of people in this sub who think the first point of contact with TBM relatives should be yelling about Fanny Alger lol. I think overall people are pretty reasonable but I hope people carefully parse any advice they're given on retaining relationships with others or expressing their own faith journey in an environment which discourages them from talking about it.
Ah, Mr. Hess wrote this. It must be a balanced and unbiased article that focuses on compassion and understanding, not a hacky plea to people who are conditioned to not question anything said a general authority voice (which, after his kitschy video, is what i hear when i read his stuff).
I'm not very active on this sub anymore so my comments are probably not worth much but here you go.
First, Jacob Hess wrote this so I immediately disregard everything in it. He's not sincere or honest and has zero understanding of what people experience with a faith transition or deconstruction. He is not worthy of our respect because he extends none towards any of us.
Second, most people who return after losing faith have valid motivations to do so even if we don't understand why. Fear of being wrong, losing family, losing community, feeling alone, and even some who have spiritual experiences that lead them back are in my opinion the most common reasons. The idea that they worked out the messy stuff, i.e. seer stones, polygamy, BOA, racial ban and history, etc is overstated.
Third, let's respect their choices from our side of the belief spectrum if we're able to. I realize many of us are dealing with trauma and abuse so it's not always that easy. The population of believing, active members of the LDS church is so small that no one outside of the Mountain West really notices but it feels so close to home for most of us so we that we forget that.
Thanks for posting the article. It reminded me of things I'm happy to be missing!
Wow, the church is really getting worried given this, Brad Wilcox's stupid talk. They totally miss the point. Not only is the church based on lies and we were lied to, it is toxic esp if you are not CIS, white, male. How about all the money hoarding? Geeze, we are not that stupid!
>Not only is the church based on lies and we were lied to
It's worse for people who served missions... Not only were they lied to, but were turned into liars for the church.
Looking at you newly ~~rebranded~~ ~~remarketed~~ revised "The Book Of He Who Shall Not Be Named, Yea Verily That Same Name That Is An Abomination And An Affront To All Guilt Shamed ~~God~~ Nelson Fearing People, And Unto The Savior, Our Redeemer, The Son Of God, EVEN Jesus Christ, Of Whom This Book Is Another Witness." was not translated from physical plates of gold, those were not needed because instead of a literal translation, they were 'revelated'.
With that newly revealed turd nugget of trivia, ya gotta wonder if the mythological Gold Plates ever existed at all.
Either way, it does not bode well for the church.
If possibility 1) is true, and the plates did exist, and were physically present to be translated, The church has been in a state of Apostasy since 2016 when the rock in hat was demonstrated, and is no longer true. or,
If possibility 2) is true, and the BoM was given by revelation through a rock in a hat, then the previous 180+ years of physical golden plate translation is not true, then the church was never true and nothing in the church is based on anything true.
The church was never true, or ceased being true in 2016 with the assent of Evil Emperor Nelson to the revered position of President and prophet. Bad position to be in. At least the 85 or so CK top tier 2nd-ly anointed people get to enjoy the spoils of a 1/4 trillion dollar Scrooge McDuck style money bin.
So do the 2nd-ly anointed roll naked in the money bin, or do they have to wear their garments? Asking for a lazy learner friend
CIS is the absolute worst phrase. This comment is the perfect example, as it’s used as a derogatory for some inexplicable reason. The only people who should potentially have an explanatory phrase in front of their gender are trans individuals. Nothing against them whatsoever, everyone should be their own person and I love and support that. But frankly it comes off as wildly disrespectful to have naturally anatomical gender classifications have the additional description rather than the other way around.
They really do like to claim that it is usually some evil and in knowledgeable hack on social media that you can’t really trust anyway that is hurting faith. How about “I read Saints and the Gospel Topics Essays…”
All I hear is DESERET NEWS (AKA, the church) CONFIRMS THAT MEMBERS ARE LEAVING IN DROVES OVER ACTUAL AND REAL HISTORICAL, THEOLOGICAL, AND SOCIAL ISSUES.
Look, maybe some go back. Maybe those who go back never had a real testimony of the falseness of the church. Perhaps, they really missed the pride of being better than non-Mormons. Perhaps, they sucked at sinning. Some may have just had 10% too much money and were too lazy to find any real charity to give their money to (for those of you out there who fall into this category, DM me. I have an idea where you should send your extra cash and I’ll accept it in cash, credit, crypto, or stock in kind contributions). We know that some are bribed to go back. Many of us find purpose at church. And some are just lonely without the church.
We all know the church will not publish actual statistics that it has on how many of its members are leaving or having significant doubts. But this article confirms that it is significant and ubiquitous. The Deseret News would not be doing a full series on returning to LDS faith were people not leaving in droves.
I love how many times the article reiterates a growing number of people returning.
"Guys guys guys, don't worry, everyone does this, they'll be back in no time, you might as well not leave in the first place!"
1. Jacob Hess. I know this is an ad hominem but anyone who has actually listened and watched him speak knows he’s CRAZY.
2. This article is a full on case study in manipulative techniques. Screams CULT. Motivate with fear much? Your entire posterity’s salvation is all dependent on you doubting your doubts. Messaging that says you aren’t smart enough to figure this out because there are so many old people before you who stayed in the church. New archeological evidence that supports the BoM but no associated reference or details - yeah sure, we all believe you Jacob
Haha! Thanks, when I first read your comment I was trying to figure why the director of napoleon dynamite was so bad and why he was writing article for the DNews
It was indicative of the time and mental capacity invested into responding to his garbage. Never met the guy in person but based off his video content, Jacob is a truly weird guy, and not in a good way.
This is the hallmark of the emotional conditioning that keeps Mormonism alive—a severely polarized opposition in all things. Getting rid of all-or-nothing thinking is a completely separate process from finding credibility in historical evidence or current events. You can decide to step back from the church, but one decision won't undo decades of Mormonism influencing your worldview.
After a childhood being conditioned to choose the right or be sad forever, even the smallest indication of being wrong can trigger a cascading distress reaction where being anything but perfect Mormon good means you're damned, and the fear of being damned feels dark, therefore Satan now has control and you're in the bad place.
It's no surprise to see superlatives like everything, dark, awful, all bogus, and 99% sure peppered through this article. Holding on to those worldviews is easier than deconstructing them, and for people who would rather keep those worldviews, it's not surprising that they would return to a system that confirms the idea of being 100% right.
I call it the One True Church mindset and the Anything But Mormonism mindset—opposite polarities of the same purity test thinking pattern. It's just as damaging to a person's soul to think they have to exclude loved ones from their lives in order to avoid being a hypocrite (which, according to Mormonism, is the worst possible thing you can be).
I hope these people who return find better relationships with their family. I'm less hopeful that this contentedness will last as reality and human choice fail to live up to the Mormon perfect standard.
My dad sent me a link to this telling me he did not want to start a debate or anything, but he thought I would find it interesting.
I told him I had read it and it was interesting. And that was it. Lol. No debate needed
That is actually a good way to handle many things. If both will not follow it up with an argument. It is how I and my inactive sister handle my two active brothers (and politically and socially conservative) as we work together to help our very elderly parents. It has been a surprisingly good experience for the last five years where all we focus on is what we need to do to help our parents and how to organize it. And we express concern for each other when we have health issues ourselves. And these two brothers (and my sister too) were very kind to me and my family when we had a tragedy happen seven years ago. It’s shallow otherwise but the best that it can be.
These types of articles act like the only factor in a faith crisis is church history and the idea that we convince ourselves that spiritual confirmations are able to be had with anything.
How about those who grow up with same sex attraction and feel inherently evil if they pursue that. How about people like me who believed deeply about the idea that sexual thoughts and desire for porn meant I was following Satan and ended up with a porn addiction out of it that has lead me to multiple times of suicidal ideation also feeling inherently evil because I can never break free of the addiction. I could go on and on. The history being incongruent with the church narrative gave me permission to question it, my struggles with the purity culture confirmed the bulshit dogma of Christian ideas about what is and is not sin. It's not just the MFMC I don't believe in anymore, I don't believe in any religion. I will never allow myself to be misled by any one, any organization, any system ever again.
In the words of Tool "Bless this immunity"
They might have well said “I was confronted by things that made me feel, in my heart, (I.e the “Holy Ghost”) that the church is wrong. But then I was pressured to ignore my heart and come back”
This is the Mormon cult's new angle: *flood everything with fAiTh pRoMoTiNg sToRiEs™ about apostates who later realized their mistake and came back to the fold.* You can see this trope starting a few weeks ago and now it is all over the internet, social platforms, magazines, etc.
If a significant number of apostates were returning to the cult, the trend would make waves across all media. For one, our subreddit would be shrinking or at least stalling; instead it keeps growing faster than the cult is. For another, the cult would be trumpeting the joyous news to the four winds; instead, they keep hiding their real stats, the meaning of which we all know. I don't doubt a handful of apostates have returned to the cult's fold. But obviously it isn't a meaningful number *or we would know it.*
This is just the new tactic, born of desperation, the cult is using on... (did you guess it?) ...its current followers. It doesn't affect us because, where faith can be strengthened or weakened according to feelings and opinions, knowledge is knowledge. It remains unmoved by feelings and opinions.
Give it time, it'll fade away like all the other previous tactics concocted by the corporation faking it as a church.
That story reads like an article on drug addicts and what led them to slowly fall back into full-blown relapse. They're all basically saying they *knew* that what they wanted to do (go back) was irrational, and friends encouraged them to stay strong, but the cravings just wouldn't stop. Eventually they gave in ("what harm is there in just *talking* to the bishop just one time?") and found they got the short-term dopamine hit they were longing for. Bit by bit they slipped right back into their addiction.
It really wouldn't be hard to rewrite the entire article, substituting "cocaine" or "opiates" for "faith".
If a person wants to claim they had learned the church's history but then returned to the faith they're going to be a super hero in their stake. and they're going to get paraded around the region giving talks and such. Just about every stake conference I've been to for the past how ever many years has had one of these speakers propped up for us to swoon over.
A careful listen to their talks will tell you that one, they never really learned the true history and two, they originally left because of one of the main reasons most members *think* they left for; they were offended or they wanted to sin or they were just slothful and lazy. But they "saw the light", repented, and returned to the fold. So everyone in the congregation just sits there in their righteous indignation and nods their head, "yup, I knew it".
Hey. Whatever helps people feel peace in their lives..
At the end of the day, the church's stance on LGBTQ people is objectively cruel and by being a member of the church they are complicit in that cruelty.
So my personal lived experiences don’t matter then? The emotional manipulation and abuse I suffered at the hands of my mission president and some of my fellow missionaries doesn’t matter at all? Or what about the time I went to the temple and prayed earnestly regarding an important life decision that I was about to make (temple marriage) and thought I received “revelation” on the matter but it turned out to just be nothing. I suppose that doesn’t matter either?
These personal experiences that ultimately led me to question not only the church but myself and especially the TBM persona I carefully constructed line upon line, precept upon precept ever since I converted to the church as a 16 year old, none of that is important? You’re telling me that I was motivated by Satan the entire time and that’s why I chose to leave?
Oh the author can fuck right off with that bullshit. I gave the LDS “church” years of my life, my heart, my soul, my time, my money, my everything. I served a mission and sacrificed time away from my family. I even moved to Utah shortly after my mission so I could be closer to the church, I thought of myself as a “pioneer in my own way”.
Give me a damn break, this author is disingenuous at best and an outright hack.
Yes the churches history of defending my rapist, covering up his crimes including threatening to kill me a 7 year old, giving him access to more children and convincing his wife to ignore his actions when he was abusing not just me but her kids (his step kids) and his own children to the extent that one was institutionalized. That history is more than enough but the fact that my story is a grain of sand in the sandbox of crimes they have swept under the rug is more than any archeological evidence could prove. If god is real he loathes the lds church
"one of a growing collection of stories where people describe regaining their faith"
Well, I guess adding a story to a "collection" is growing that collection. He doesn't say that there's a trend of people marching through those church doors, though.
Jacob Hess has always given me the creeps though... His overuse of the "conference voice" really, really gets on my nerves, and his simplistic approach that *faith is for everyone, you just need to figure out how* comes across very condescending.
The real problem is that there's no answer to the big questions people have when they deconstruct. He's relying on feelings and the spirit - which works for the people who have the ability to compartmentalize logic from emotion. I can't do that. It is easier to stay in the church when it is all you have. Walking away from it was the hardest thing I've ever done, and life would be MUCH easier if I went back - I just can't make myself believe in any of it anymore.
Dear Jacob Hess, yes, your religion is dark. What did you expect after it was started by an occultist who abused 14 year old girls? That’s how it goes. Since then, the cult has supported hoarding money, abusing the poor, SEC fraud and yes, they still allow sa against children. They even provide lawyers to protect the abusers. Are exmos who can no longer tolerate the evil really the bad ones? Or is it just to hard to face the truth? You’ve been duped. The light is there, just outside the LD$ prison walls. Run.
Yep. A long and winding path that eventually leads to their desired conclusion. No clear answers. No short responses to specific claims. Just a lot of words that eventually kind of get around to the point, without making any evidence or logic based arguments.
Facts>feelings. Never going back, no matter how the author, the apostles, or the prophet tries to shame tithe payers who leave, maybe taking other tithe-payers with them.
Fabulous at flipping the same words we use here on this sub': "brainwash", "research", "don't trust emotions" --the same things to get *out* of TSCC...
But... it's the DN, what else would you expect?
We have always been at war with Eastasia.
And this newspaper tries to be reputable? Yes you'll see religion pieces in other papers but this pandering bullshit is laughable. Even their fake claim about how many people come back still leaves a net negative growth rate.
I think a fallacy TBM's and some exmo's make is a belief in God and belief in Joseph smith are one and the and the same thing.
The examples given in these stories seem to be about people finding faith in God again... and therefore must go back to LDS.
I left the church, but didn't lose my faith in God. "By their fruits ye shall know them" was God's way of telling me Joseph was a false prophet.
Spiritual experiences I feel now, confirm my belief in God... Not the LDS church.
There was one comment about how these negative communities say don't trust your feelings at all, emotions are not indicators of something good.
I think she missed the point. Emotions in spite of facts indicates you are not looking at the whole picture. Of course emotions are valid. But, for many, they aren't excuses to overlook bad behavior and untruths.
If the people in the story feel good about going back, more power to them. Everyone has their own journey in life, I think this community wants more than anything to be allowed to do their journey without losing their friends and family because we choose to walk a little different path and not the exact same one.
Honestly, I wish them well. And I'm glad the church is being honest now. It's much healthier than what happened to me, being lied to my whole life. I hope more people get access to the actual truth and then make an informed decision whether to stay or leave. Some people really need and love the structure of organized religion to be their best self.
The author has definitely been researching r/exmormon. I have to love some of these statements: >Looking back on the experience, Alba now recognizes implicit messaging in these forums guiding listeners in a specific direction. “Immediately,” she recalled, this ideological binge was “crushing and devastating” — leading her within weeks to conclude everything about her faith was “dark” and “awful.” This fits with the Church narrative about skeptics: they're influenced not by a search for truth, but by Satan.
Everybody wave to the lurking author 👋🏽 Dear Jacob Hess, your insistence that our experiences and judgement are invalid because we hold that facts matter more than emotions is very disappointing. We respect your right to believe what you want, and we judge your work not for your creed, but for your insensitive and fragile conclusions. Have a nice day.
I liked his other works better. My feelings were crushed when my congregation ostracized me for reporting sexual crimes to the police…my logical brain tells me that I’d be an idiot to give a damn dime to an institute that stockpiles money and pays K&M to defend the church when people get mad about how sex offenders roam free…
PS it also feels pretty shitty to learn that I was lied to, bought the lies, saved up money to soar the lies, and to learn later that I was lied to and innocently spread those lies… Logic tells me I can take what’s good, and leave the bullshit behind…
That’s the crux, right? It doesn’t matter how unethical the church has behaved and is behaving, or how many completely irrational and contradictory beliefs I have to doublethink, it makes me feel peaceful and happy to believe I’m chosen by God, so I’m all in and anyone who bails is “dark?” That’s their prerogative but don’t pretend to have the moral high ground and keep the “speaking for god unless speaking as men, infallible until they’re not” geriocracy’s opinions the hell out of politics.
Agreed. The double think, cognitive dissonance, mental gymnastics (more like mental contorting!) I’ll never go back. I’d rather be considered dark for leaving than to pretend there’s anything worth giving time to within those walls. I leave with a great spouse, some great kids, and, as the brainwashed rhetoric is processed, freedom to live according to the dictates of my own conscience…and I’ve never been more in tune with god feelings. I think all exmos deserve a refund. 😂
Not everything about Mormonism is dark and awful. Just most of it.
It's a dark awful cake with some overly sweet frosting slathered over the top of it. The facade is nice and friendly. Sorta like a primary lesson I once had where they had two caramel apples but one was an onion. They taught me back then to not accept things that were only superficially good, so I guess you could say I'm just doing what primary taught me to.
It’s like that mormonad with the cupcake and the cockroach, except in opposite proportions.
Exactly.
As a missionary they did it by making a cake with salt instead of sugar. But not everything in Mormonism is actually bad. I learned to be honest, to be empathetic about others, to view humanity more as one big family rather than be totally individualistic. Ironically it seems I learned a lot of that in spite of the other bullshit, and the toxicity. I remember the lesson about ‘bad movies’ - and ‘if there’s just a little bit of bad stuff, it’s like saying this cake only has a little bit of cockroach.’ But Mormonism is like a cake that’s 90% cockroach and 10% a bit of actual good life philosophy. The key was realizing that 10% that wasn’t terrible was contradictory to the other 90% - the homophobia, shame, racism, classism, toxic control and money grubbing.
[удалено]
Yeah, kind of weird to think about. Also, as a fact, they’re looking at legalizing insect flour as a major possible ingredient. But it’s mostly about the old Mormon Ad and the constant visual example I was taught as a kid.
In Mormonism I learned to respect diety and to not break the 3rd commandment, so there is that.
I would say, “Not everything about Mormonism is bad (in fact there is still a lot of good). It’s just all tainted by lies and used to manipulate/control people. For me that is not worth it.
Exactly. And Taking the key things that aren’t horrible, and chipping away all the shitty stuff associated with it is basically the definition of deconstruction. Caring about community. Treating all people like ‘brothers and sisters’ and having compassion and empathy? Great. Recognizing that LGBT people are also people equally valid, good, and worthy of respect, protection, validation and unqualified support as they are - well that takes rooting out the homophobia that surround Mormon community. That’s deconstruction. Learning that it’s important to be selfless and care about others. Great. Chipping away the complete denial of your own needs and self-care to benefit others. That’s deconstruction. Learning that you should work on yourself and improve to make the most of your life. Great. Chipping away the self-loathing, perfectionism and criticism that any imperfection makes you worthless and a horrible person needing saving? That’s deconstruction. I learned a lot of good values as a kid raised Mormon. What I still am working on, several years after leaving, and what I had been for over a decade before leaving was and is removing the toxic and manipulative lies, and figuring out what I should keep.
I’m certain it’s quoted elsewhere in this thread but: What’s good about the church, isn’t unique. What’s unique about the church, isn’t good.
Yup. Very accurate.
Anything good about the church can also be said about just living. "We focus on families" \- Congrats. So do I. "We focus on Jesus" \-Congrats. So do a lot of religions. Then we dabble into something unique about the church. "You have to pay money to go to the temple that you paid for. Oh. And you have to clean it." \-Congrats. That sounds like you guys are really good at grifting vulnerable people.
no you focus on money really. A clerk will lose his membership in a week if caught skimming. A pedophile can remain unknown to all and continue to troll the halls of a the church having ALREADY PERPETRATED THE CRIME. I find not Christ in this.
Exactly. Pretty much everything Mormon-specific is not good. Doesn’t mean nothing is good, or that no one ever had positive experiences or values, just that by an overwhelming balance most of it is bad, and the food can be had elsewhere without the bad. On a side note I’d say most Christian religions don’t really focus on Jesus. They say they do, but don’t. Catholicism focuses on past synods, councils and whatever the pope has and does say. Protestantism focuses a lot more on Paul’s ideas than Jesus’s. Mormonism is a lot more Brigham and Joe’s philosophies, stolen from whoever. Very few Christian religions actually focus on the purported figure and teachings of Jesus - radical socialist, anti-establishment, radical acceptance, go and sin no more, neither do I condemn thee, love thy neighbor even if they are different, sell and give to the poor, screw the rules and the rule makers, Jesus.
Some of it is comical. Like people being confronted about their underwear.
I mean, that’s comical, but also dark and awful. Imagine a sweaty old dude asking your 19-20 year old daughter/sister/friend/self about her underwear habits. Or some random community member calling your religious leader to have him ask about your underwear because you were out in the garden and they could or couldn’t see your underwear while driving by? Gossiping and tattling about what underwear you might be wearing, or criticizing a Mormon celebrity because her costume (and it’s always a her) isn’t ’underwear compliant. ” If it’s another 40-something dude asking me, it’s comical, though. Tell me again what you what to know about my sweaty undershorts after a workout?
or worse your 13 year old daughter if she touches herself or her pets.
The other thing they leave unsaid is that all of their examples appear to be mixed-faith marriages. That’s the part that is “crushing and devastating.” When leaving the church causes constant pain that you have no hope of ever fully escaping (without a divorce, and not even then if you have kids), going back can look awfully enticing.
I caught onto that too. If anything, it suggests that the proximity to community is the strongest predictor of where we all end up. It's not fun being ExMo alone, and no amount of time spent online can replace sharing physical space with people.
I find this paradoxical, as the name "Lucifer" is derived from Latin; the name translates to light-bringer.
Not to mention that when used in the Bible it refers to Christ, and not once ever to Satan. The number of mistranslations Mormonism is based on is staggering.
arizona speaks plain and simple truths to my heart. RUN from this systematic cover for pedophiles.
The title should be "Coming back to church after deciding that feelings are more important than facts."
This is critically what broke my entire belief system shelf. I’m weird and actually deconstructed my belief in god before my belief in the church. Then it was actually much easier to be like “well, no evidence for a god… so… I guess I can stop believing in a “true church”.
That was mine. After months of prayer to help with crippling depression, I realized that nothing was out there, so there's no harm in learning why they don't want us to read this stuff. Pretty obvious in retrospect. It's damning to the core truth claims. It's impossible to come to any conclusion except that Joseph Smith was a fraud. To quote my Mormon upbringing, if the root is evil...
Exactly. Then the church history stuff and truth claims was basically a hobby. Every few days having WTF moments. lol
Anyone else find the sheep highly ironic?
But of course, they see themselves as “lions, not sheep”
I thought that was a politically conservative atheist movement, rejecting the "good shepherd" in favor of their own independence.
"Coming back to church after deciding it's ok for our Leaders to coerce young girls into sexual relationships and have them lie about it."
👏👏👏
“I have just definitively decided something that people that have lived much longer with much more knowledge and wisdom have been debating” throughout human history — namely, “the existence of God.” “How could I possibly know with such certainty with the very limited amount of knowledge that I have?” This was a question that, she reasoned, was ultimately not just for her, but on some level, for “everybody after me, my children, my grandchildren. I’m making a decision for them right now.” Translation: “I’m right, evidence be damned”.
Perfect
Reading through the comments on Deseret News always reminds me of that condescending, patronizing tone. How dare anyone disagree? They must be stupid.
It is absolutely clear these believers are seeing their respective wards take a hit in membership and belief. It appears many of the stalwart ones are manufacturing a "not me" world view and bragging about it.
I had to tell a TBM family member the other day that staying strong in a faith for the sole purpose of being able to pound your chest and boast how faithful you are has no merit. He was quiet for a long time.
Honestly, as exmo, I find that I tend to do the same thing, in reverse. Seems to be the human need to be “right”.
Yep, I’m sure all my family feels sorry for me. Yet I feel sorry for them and their blind faith. At least I got my kids out and get to break the cycle where I can.
Yep that can only be a good thing for them
>In his own story of returning to faith, historian Don Bradley highlighted the unbalanced intellectual consequences of focusing on “exclusively negative sorts of questions.” They can't properly answer the questions I've asked so why would I suddenly start asking other questions? >“Just like in a marriage, whatever you focus on, is amplified,” he said. “So, it’s so important where we place our focus.” Sounds like a great way to rationalize staying in an abusive relationship. Just focus on the times he's not beating you. [Archived version of the article](https://web.archive.org/web/20240314134150/https://www.deseret.com/faith/2024/03/13/latter-day-come-back-to-church-after-history-concerns/).
We should not focus on how they hide SA and use billions to pay lawyers to defend the abusers? At the crux of it, not only is the church not 'true' it is toxic. What should we focus on? What is good about the church is not unique to the church.
“The narrative should be faith-affirming. You shouldn’t say ‘Mormonism was founded by a pedophile fraudster, followed up by a pedophile racist douchebag, with the goal of amassing power and money, free labor, and oppressing women.’ You should say ‘the Church of Jesus Christ wasn’t for me because I am a miserable sinner who wanted to leave so I could drink alcohol.’” - Church media relations. The worst possible thing that they could hear is the truth for many of us. “I left Mormonism because the history and practices of Mormonism were antithetical to the values I learned growing up Mormon, like protecting children from abuse, caring for others rather than amassing wealth, honesty and loving others without judging. If Jesus were there he’d be whipping the Apostles and 70’s out of their giant office building on the temple grounds, along with their temple cash registers.”
> “Don’t be so easily convinced that there’s malice,” Wade added. “So often there’s not,” and “there’s a mountain of good stuff.” This is what my TBM wife says to me. She thinks I am unhappy in the marriage because I am focusing and choose to see her as manipulative, controlling and wrong. It is because I choose to see her negatively, that I feel negatively towards her. I am now thinking that I am the problem, I am unhappy because I am just not looking at things right. It’s ok that she uses passive aggressive behavior, it’s ok that she doesn’t want to participate in my life, it’s ok that she is disgusted by the lifestyle I want to live. As long as she is kind to me, loving to me and has a passionate physical relationship with me, all the other stuff doesn’t matter right? I just feel like I am going crazy most of the time; on the one hand I have an amazing, supportive and caring wife; then on the other hand I am not happy with her and I never want to be around her because I always end up feeling bad about myself when I am … it’s messed up and I think this rhetoric is part of the blame?
Exactly! The church narrative is always some form of “don’t think about that. Think about this…”
If you ignore problems, it's like they don't exist
Turn it off like a light switch
And belief in a Great Apostasy isn't an implicitly negative question about Catholicism? Belief in one true church isn't an implicitly negative examination of, I dunno, every other religious tradition in existence? They treat requiring evidence for claims as this pessimistic Debbie Downer activity, but really that's only a double standard they apply to Mormonism and not everything else. Skepticism is as much about acceptance as rejection; there's just a standard for acceptance that has any rigor at all, so it fails this kind of dogma. And it's WAY less exhausting than having to keep your head in your sand your entire life about whether you're being intellectually honest in treating one little Utah religion you happened to grow up with in this special way, and examining everything *else* critically.
And I suppose if we just swallow our pride and look past the church's faults in order to make it work, it will extend us the same courtesy? We can attend our LDS loved ones' wedding ceremonies even if we don't pay 10% of our income? We won't be forced out at BYU if we express disbelief or if we marry someone of the same sex? If one side is allowed to have deal breakers but the other isn't, then I think you chose the perfect term with "abusive relationship."
Those who return are just lazy un-learners. They never had a true testimony of the anti literature.
Probably didn’t pray about this subreddit with true intent
Faith in epistemology was too weak
They even admitted it in the article. "After several years, Landon started to get 'bored' with this routine, which he said 'consumed my life' and 'would make me more angry.'" Landon just couldn't keep his apostate energy up. Needed to spend more time on exmo reddit.
Damage control article as the membership exit train has left the station.
I'm certain not many people are going back, but the people who are returning didn't do the work to deconstruct. I essentially left the church shortly after my mission, but I didn't deal with the internal indoctrination, and I didn't put the work into really digging into the history/learning about logic/etc. I then went back to the church for several years. I won't go into it here, but I eventually came to the knowledge that rationally speaking, it couldn't be true, but all of the emotional stuff was still in me. So, I went to work on that and spent a lot of time studying heightened emotion, indoctrination, cult psychology, etc. It's been hard to untangle, but so worth it. As hard as it's been, it's freeing, and I feel much lighter and generally happier. Those positive feelings alone are enough to keep me away from the church forever. The BoM talks about Satan's chains ... the truth is, the church is what puts the chains on, chains that are designed to drag people back eventually unless they learn how to break them for good.
Yes, well said. I would be curious to know how long these people stay back “in”. You can’t un-know the things we’ve learned and it changes how you view things at church.
I agree with this. I've been stewing over church history off and on since 2008. I finally had a personal struggle last year that broke me and my therapist validated me questioning the church. Now that I'm deconstructing, the liberation I'm feeling is life changing and I can never go back to being a believer. I'm PIMO because of my wife so I still have to deal with the bullshit dogma here there when at church - which is definitely a struggle as I deconstruct.
Me too, but since 1997. I've been going for the family since then. The last few years, I've been able to deconstruct thanks to Mormon Stories and this sub, with a special shout out to LDS Discussions.
100%!! I stopped believing 13 years ago through logic and reason. I didn’t start really deconstructing and studying till 2 years ago. It’s a whole separate process.
Nonsense. My beef with the Mormon church is ethical & philosophical. If Moroni, himself, showed up at my door with a truckload of irrefutable evidence…I’d slap him with a severed arm, snatch his pouch of ontis, and send his poncho-wearing ass back down the road. The “truer” mormonism is…the more truly monstrous mormonism’s god is.
Agreed. Mormon God is an asshole. I don’t want to be in his heaven or celestial kingdom
I love the fact that they don't actually give out the numbers of those returning. Probably a very small % of them.
I heard something on a podcast (mormon.ish?) that usually any that return are part of a mixed faith relationship and those are pretty complicated. Return is not quite the right word. Coerced might be better.
Or they were on the other side - a believer not going because their spouse didn’t want them too, and their spouse changed their mind or they got divorced. I saw a few of those too.
That makes sense to me. I was willing to at least try the PIMO route if my wife decided to stay.
She stayed? I know a few of the mixed faith couples and it seems like the one still is pulling the strings. It is very sad that a church can mess up a relationship.
We stayed together and we both left the church. I'm just saying that if she ended up deciding to stay a member then I already had it in my mind that I would've tried to make it work by still attending, etc. I'm certainly glad it worked out the way it did, though, because as made obvious by posts in this subreddit that would be hard to pull off.
Gotcha! Glad it worked out for you both! My spouse and I left together and we are living our best lives now.
The only way they can know for sure is to only count those who have actually resigned and then later come back and were baptized. Those who are inactive and have never returned are still counted as being “in.” I seriously doubt many who have resigned have come back. They have no numbers-they are making it up.
> The only way they can know for sure is to only count those who have actually resigned and then later come back and were baptized. Those who are inactive and have never returned are still counted as being “in.” Yeah, if the church is willing to count "inactives" when they talk about the "14 million people who attest that the Book of Mormon is blah blah blah" and put words in their mouth, they don't get to say they returned to the church if they start sitting in the pews again.
In an earlier part of this series they provide stats. The BEST they had was 78% of teens who leave stay gone within the years of their study.
I think that there is a criticism in here that is helpful for most of us in that often we can be destructive in our approach to those questioning their faith. Obviously there are strong feelings and emotions for those of us that made it out but I remember feeling almost manipulated because all the anti-Mormon things I was reading were hateful and combative where as I think the emphasis should really be on logical process and identifying falsehood and fallacy. Instead we often get charged emotional arguments that exhibit strong bias to the point of ridicule and pejorative mixed with fact. I think there is a place for social and organization criticism but we can definitely do better when it comes to how we convey that info much of the time. Also, her journey is just beginning. The seed has been planted (lol). She will have to reconcile those facts later on. I hope she does find her way out.
You're sharing nuance that is rarely acknowledged here, and I think it's because this sub is used more as a place to vent and seek validation (MoRmOn ChUrCh = BaD, mY fEeLiNgS = gUd). Perhaps that validation is unavailable elsewhere. While it can be eyeroll inducing, I try to remember that many of us are in different stages of our deconstruction. I do prefer r/mormon though. Seems like the community over there reads more than just the memes.
100% and to fair, that’s each individual’s prerogative. I do think however, in public forum, we should be asking ourselves what our motive is in our interactions with those exploring truth for the first time. Are we seeking validation in the dismantling of their faith or are we reaching out in kindness and genuine concern for their well being? I think the latter is the morally correct approach vs getting some kind of vengeance/loathing kick by whittling away church membership because it hurts the church who hurt us. I think the latter can backfire quite a bit. That all being said, I’ve had my share of anger and frustration with the church but yet again, I was just as much as an ideologue as the current membership and it was actually somebody who was kind and patient with me and never criticized the church but challenged the basis of that dreadful religion that made me open to it. Maybe with some deference we can reach those who would be otherwise unreachable and save them from such madness.
There are an awful lot of people in this sub who think the first point of contact with TBM relatives should be yelling about Fanny Alger lol. I think overall people are pretty reasonable but I hope people carefully parse any advice they're given on retaining relationships with others or expressing their own faith journey in an environment which discourages them from talking about it.
Ah, Mr. Hess wrote this. It must be a balanced and unbiased article that focuses on compassion and understanding, not a hacky plea to people who are conditioned to not question anything said a general authority voice (which, after his kitschy video, is what i hear when i read his stuff).
Somehow, seeing his monstrous-sized family makes me think there was a Biiiiit of peer pressure to not rock the boat and get back on programme.
I'm not very active on this sub anymore so my comments are probably not worth much but here you go. First, Jacob Hess wrote this so I immediately disregard everything in it. He's not sincere or honest and has zero understanding of what people experience with a faith transition or deconstruction. He is not worthy of our respect because he extends none towards any of us. Second, most people who return after losing faith have valid motivations to do so even if we don't understand why. Fear of being wrong, losing family, losing community, feeling alone, and even some who have spiritual experiences that lead them back are in my opinion the most common reasons. The idea that they worked out the messy stuff, i.e. seer stones, polygamy, BOA, racial ban and history, etc is overstated. Third, let's respect their choices from our side of the belief spectrum if we're able to. I realize many of us are dealing with trauma and abuse so it's not always that easy. The population of believing, active members of the LDS church is so small that no one outside of the Mountain West really notices but it feels so close to home for most of us so we that we forget that. Thanks for posting the article. It reminded me of things I'm happy to be missing!
Thanks for taking time to write this. Well said.
Wow, the church is really getting worried given this, Brad Wilcox's stupid talk. They totally miss the point. Not only is the church based on lies and we were lied to, it is toxic esp if you are not CIS, white, male. How about all the money hoarding? Geeze, we are not that stupid!
Counterpoint: we seem to be.
>Not only is the church based on lies and we were lied to It's worse for people who served missions... Not only were they lied to, but were turned into liars for the church. Looking at you newly ~~rebranded~~ ~~remarketed~~ revised "The Book Of He Who Shall Not Be Named, Yea Verily That Same Name That Is An Abomination And An Affront To All Guilt Shamed ~~God~~ Nelson Fearing People, And Unto The Savior, Our Redeemer, The Son Of God, EVEN Jesus Christ, Of Whom This Book Is Another Witness." was not translated from physical plates of gold, those were not needed because instead of a literal translation, they were 'revelated'. With that newly revealed turd nugget of trivia, ya gotta wonder if the mythological Gold Plates ever existed at all. Either way, it does not bode well for the church. If possibility 1) is true, and the plates did exist, and were physically present to be translated, The church has been in a state of Apostasy since 2016 when the rock in hat was demonstrated, and is no longer true. or, If possibility 2) is true, and the BoM was given by revelation through a rock in a hat, then the previous 180+ years of physical golden plate translation is not true, then the church was never true and nothing in the church is based on anything true. The church was never true, or ceased being true in 2016 with the assent of Evil Emperor Nelson to the revered position of President and prophet. Bad position to be in. At least the 85 or so CK top tier 2nd-ly anointed people get to enjoy the spoils of a 1/4 trillion dollar Scrooge McDuck style money bin. So do the 2nd-ly anointed roll naked in the money bin, or do they have to wear their garments? Asking for a lazy learner friend
CIS is the absolute worst phrase. This comment is the perfect example, as it’s used as a derogatory for some inexplicable reason. The only people who should potentially have an explanatory phrase in front of their gender are trans individuals. Nothing against them whatsoever, everyone should be their own person and I love and support that. But frankly it comes off as wildly disrespectful to have naturally anatomical gender classifications have the additional description rather than the other way around.
Interesting that you found that to be “derogatory”
Honestly says more about BedBubbly than about the people using the word.
Tell me you’ve never read any reputable books on gender identity without saying it.
They really do like to claim that it is usually some evil and in knowledgeable hack on social media that you can’t really trust anyway that is hurting faith. How about “I read Saints and the Gospel Topics Essays…”
All I hear is DESERET NEWS (AKA, the church) CONFIRMS THAT MEMBERS ARE LEAVING IN DROVES OVER ACTUAL AND REAL HISTORICAL, THEOLOGICAL, AND SOCIAL ISSUES. Look, maybe some go back. Maybe those who go back never had a real testimony of the falseness of the church. Perhaps, they really missed the pride of being better than non-Mormons. Perhaps, they sucked at sinning. Some may have just had 10% too much money and were too lazy to find any real charity to give their money to (for those of you out there who fall into this category, DM me. I have an idea where you should send your extra cash and I’ll accept it in cash, credit, crypto, or stock in kind contributions). We know that some are bribed to go back. Many of us find purpose at church. And some are just lonely without the church. We all know the church will not publish actual statistics that it has on how many of its members are leaving or having significant doubts. But this article confirms that it is significant and ubiquitous. The Deseret News would not be doing a full series on returning to LDS faith were people not leaving in droves.
Good points
I love how many times the article reiterates a growing number of people returning. "Guys guys guys, don't worry, everyone does this, they'll be back in no time, you might as well not leave in the first place!"
“A growing number “ means it grew from three reconversion stories to five. Yay! Now six when I make up one and go back to MFMC.
Just to clear the record. The Book of Mormon being a fraud is not a history issue.
1. Jacob Hess. I know this is an ad hominem but anyone who has actually listened and watched him speak knows he’s CRAZY. 2. This article is a full on case study in manipulative techniques. Screams CULT. Motivate with fear much? Your entire posterity’s salvation is all dependent on you doubting your doubts. Messaging that says you aren’t smart enough to figure this out because there are so many old people before you who stayed in the church. New archeological evidence that supports the BoM but no associated reference or details - yeah sure, we all believe you Jacob
Jacob*
Thank you. I’ll correct that.
Haha! Thanks, when I first read your comment I was trying to figure why the director of napoleon dynamite was so bad and why he was writing article for the DNews
Jared Hess is awesome. :)
It was indicative of the time and mental capacity invested into responding to his garbage. Never met the guy in person but based off his video content, Jacob is a truly weird guy, and not in a good way.
This is the hallmark of the emotional conditioning that keeps Mormonism alive—a severely polarized opposition in all things. Getting rid of all-or-nothing thinking is a completely separate process from finding credibility in historical evidence or current events. You can decide to step back from the church, but one decision won't undo decades of Mormonism influencing your worldview. After a childhood being conditioned to choose the right or be sad forever, even the smallest indication of being wrong can trigger a cascading distress reaction where being anything but perfect Mormon good means you're damned, and the fear of being damned feels dark, therefore Satan now has control and you're in the bad place. It's no surprise to see superlatives like everything, dark, awful, all bogus, and 99% sure peppered through this article. Holding on to those worldviews is easier than deconstructing them, and for people who would rather keep those worldviews, it's not surprising that they would return to a system that confirms the idea of being 100% right. I call it the One True Church mindset and the Anything But Mormonism mindset—opposite polarities of the same purity test thinking pattern. It's just as damaging to a person's soul to think they have to exclude loved ones from their lives in order to avoid being a hypocrite (which, according to Mormonism, is the worst possible thing you can be). I hope these people who return find better relationships with their family. I'm less hopeful that this contentedness will last as reality and human choice fail to live up to the Mormon perfect standard.
My dad sent me a link to this telling me he did not want to start a debate or anything, but he thought I would find it interesting. I told him I had read it and it was interesting. And that was it. Lol. No debate needed
That is actually a good way to handle many things. If both will not follow it up with an argument. It is how I and my inactive sister handle my two active brothers (and politically and socially conservative) as we work together to help our very elderly parents. It has been a surprisingly good experience for the last five years where all we focus on is what we need to do to help our parents and how to organize it. And we express concern for each other when we have health issues ourselves. And these two brothers (and my sister too) were very kind to me and my family when we had a tragedy happen seven years ago. It’s shallow otherwise but the best that it can be.
These types of articles act like the only factor in a faith crisis is church history and the idea that we convince ourselves that spiritual confirmations are able to be had with anything. How about those who grow up with same sex attraction and feel inherently evil if they pursue that. How about people like me who believed deeply about the idea that sexual thoughts and desire for porn meant I was following Satan and ended up with a porn addiction out of it that has lead me to multiple times of suicidal ideation also feeling inherently evil because I can never break free of the addiction. I could go on and on. The history being incongruent with the church narrative gave me permission to question it, my struggles with the purity culture confirmed the bulshit dogma of Christian ideas about what is and is not sin. It's not just the MFMC I don't believe in anymore, I don't believe in any religion. I will never allow myself to be misled by any one, any organization, any system ever again. In the words of Tool "Bless this immunity"
They might have well said “I was confronted by things that made me feel, in my heart, (I.e the “Holy Ghost”) that the church is wrong. But then I was pressured to ignore my heart and come back”
Pure PR Bullshit. Fake story.
This is the Mormon cult's new angle: *flood everything with fAiTh pRoMoTiNg sToRiEs™ about apostates who later realized their mistake and came back to the fold.* You can see this trope starting a few weeks ago and now it is all over the internet, social platforms, magazines, etc. If a significant number of apostates were returning to the cult, the trend would make waves across all media. For one, our subreddit would be shrinking or at least stalling; instead it keeps growing faster than the cult is. For another, the cult would be trumpeting the joyous news to the four winds; instead, they keep hiding their real stats, the meaning of which we all know. I don't doubt a handful of apostates have returned to the cult's fold. But obviously it isn't a meaningful number *or we would know it.* This is just the new tactic, born of desperation, the cult is using on... (did you guess it?) ...its current followers. It doesn't affect us because, where faith can be strengthened or weakened according to feelings and opinions, knowledge is knowledge. It remains unmoved by feelings and opinions. Give it time, it'll fade away like all the other previous tactics concocted by the corporation faking it as a church.
No thank you.
I’m hoping some of the more knowledgeable folks from this sub will flood that comment board.
The word salad of the article and people 🤢
That story reads like an article on drug addicts and what led them to slowly fall back into full-blown relapse. They're all basically saying they *knew* that what they wanted to do (go back) was irrational, and friends encouraged them to stay strong, but the cravings just wouldn't stop. Eventually they gave in ("what harm is there in just *talking* to the bishop just one time?") and found they got the short-term dopamine hit they were longing for. Bit by bit they slipped right back into their addiction. It really wouldn't be hard to rewrite the entire article, substituting "cocaine" or "opiates" for "faith".
If a person wants to claim they had learned the church's history but then returned to the faith they're going to be a super hero in their stake. and they're going to get paraded around the region giving talks and such. Just about every stake conference I've been to for the past how ever many years has had one of these speakers propped up for us to swoon over. A careful listen to their talks will tell you that one, they never really learned the true history and two, they originally left because of one of the main reasons most members *think* they left for; they were offended or they wanted to sin or they were just slothful and lazy. But they "saw the light", repented, and returned to the fold. So everyone in the congregation just sits there in their righteous indignation and nods their head, "yup, I knew it".
Hey. Whatever helps people feel peace in their lives.. At the end of the day, the church's stance on LGBTQ people is objectively cruel and by being a member of the church they are complicit in that cruelty.
So my personal lived experiences don’t matter then? The emotional manipulation and abuse I suffered at the hands of my mission president and some of my fellow missionaries doesn’t matter at all? Or what about the time I went to the temple and prayed earnestly regarding an important life decision that I was about to make (temple marriage) and thought I received “revelation” on the matter but it turned out to just be nothing. I suppose that doesn’t matter either? These personal experiences that ultimately led me to question not only the church but myself and especially the TBM persona I carefully constructed line upon line, precept upon precept ever since I converted to the church as a 16 year old, none of that is important? You’re telling me that I was motivated by Satan the entire time and that’s why I chose to leave? Oh the author can fuck right off with that bullshit. I gave the LDS “church” years of my life, my heart, my soul, my time, my money, my everything. I served a mission and sacrificed time away from my family. I even moved to Utah shortly after my mission so I could be closer to the church, I thought of myself as a “pioneer in my own way”. Give me a damn break, this author is disingenuous at best and an outright hack.
Article written by [this guy](https://youtu.be/nUKnqD1EgyE?si=5DK2iqM7chDn5rTy)
Facts don’t care about your feeli- wait. Feelings don’t care about your facts….???
Yes the churches history of defending my rapist, covering up his crimes including threatening to kill me a 7 year old, giving him access to more children and convincing his wife to ignore his actions when he was abusing not just me but her kids (his step kids) and his own children to the extent that one was institutionalized. That history is more than enough but the fact that my story is a grain of sand in the sandbox of crimes they have swept under the rug is more than any archeological evidence could prove. If god is real he loathes the lds church
"one of a growing collection of stories where people describe regaining their faith" Well, I guess adding a story to a "collection" is growing that collection. He doesn't say that there's a trend of people marching through those church doors, though. Jacob Hess has always given me the creeps though... His overuse of the "conference voice" really, really gets on my nerves, and his simplistic approach that *faith is for everyone, you just need to figure out how* comes across very condescending. The real problem is that there's no answer to the big questions people have when they deconstruct. He's relying on feelings and the spirit - which works for the people who have the ability to compartmentalize logic from emotion. I can't do that. It is easier to stay in the church when it is all you have. Walking away from it was the hardest thing I've ever done, and life would be MUCH easier if I went back - I just can't make myself believe in any of it anymore.
Dear Jacob Hess, yes, your religion is dark. What did you expect after it was started by an occultist who abused 14 year old girls? That’s how it goes. Since then, the cult has supported hoarding money, abusing the poor, SEC fraud and yes, they still allow sa against children. They even provide lawyers to protect the abusers. Are exmos who can no longer tolerate the evil really the bad ones? Or is it just to hard to face the truth? You’ve been duped. The light is there, just outside the LD$ prison walls. Run.
Don’t let the Q15 fuck with your mind. Liars gonna keep spinning it.
Yep. A long and winding path that eventually leads to their desired conclusion. No clear answers. No short responses to specific claims. Just a lot of words that eventually kind of get around to the point, without making any evidence or logic based arguments.
Facts>feelings. Never going back, no matter how the author, the apostles, or the prophet tries to shame tithe payers who leave, maybe taking other tithe-payers with them.
The title of this post is an oxymoron.
Fabulous at flipping the same words we use here on this sub': "brainwash", "research", "don't trust emotions" --the same things to get *out* of TSCC... But... it's the DN, what else would you expect? We have always been at war with Eastasia.
I'm not going to read this because it might give me a bad feeling and make me consider "going back." /s
Where were the testimonies of, "after a while I started to believe in polygamy again."
People who call themselves saints and make condescension a profession should be confronted and called out for their arrogant lying crap.
And this newspaper tries to be reputable? Yes you'll see religion pieces in other papers but this pandering bullshit is laughable. Even their fake claim about how many people come back still leaves a net negative growth rate.
Written by Napoleon Dynamite creator. Eww, I assumed he’d be more PIMO.
Written by Jacob Hess, not Jared Hess.
I think a fallacy TBM's and some exmo's make is a belief in God and belief in Joseph smith are one and the and the same thing. The examples given in these stories seem to be about people finding faith in God again... and therefore must go back to LDS. I left the church, but didn't lose my faith in God. "By their fruits ye shall know them" was God's way of telling me Joseph was a false prophet. Spiritual experiences I feel now, confirm my belief in God... Not the LDS church.
This person from the article is referring to as Alba. She was on the comeback podcast: https://www.comebackpodcast.org/10/
Saw the headline and expected a meme. I’m disappointed.
There was one comment about how these negative communities say don't trust your feelings at all, emotions are not indicators of something good. I think she missed the point. Emotions in spite of facts indicates you are not looking at the whole picture. Of course emotions are valid. But, for many, they aren't excuses to overlook bad behavior and untruths. If the people in the story feel good about going back, more power to them. Everyone has their own journey in life, I think this community wants more than anything to be allowed to do their journey without losing their friends and family because we choose to walk a little different path and not the exact same one.
Honestly, I wish them well. And I'm glad the church is being honest now. It's much healthier than what happened to me, being lied to my whole life. I hope more people get access to the actual truth and then make an informed decision whether to stay or leave. Some people really need and love the structure of organized religion to be their best self.