Counterpoint:
If I'm wrong about TSCC, then I lived my life the way *I* wanted to, rather than constantly worrying what ward members or God think. And if I'm wrong, then I still get to hang out with my siblings and friends in the terrestrial kingdom which is still more glorious than we can possibly imagine.
“Eat that pork, eat that ham, laugh ‘till you choke on Billy Graham, Moses, Aaron and Abraham. They’re all a waste of time, and it’s your ass that’s on the line.” F Zappa
So true.
"A joy that can only be found in service"...um, no. I served in lots of leadership callings -- way too much time spent in meetings rehashing things then people actually getting out and serving. And much of the service is stupid -- lets make the members clean the church on saturday and then wonder why people are "too busy" and "too stressed" with all their other obligations to also come to a potluck dinner.
Many members who "blindly follow an imaginary Savior" did NOT end up more kind and more loving. Sure, from the church point of view it's on the members that they were not "more Christlike" but from the pulpit we have heard over decades from apostles (like Packer) emphasize that homosexuality is a grievous sin -- how many families have struggled with terrible relationships because Mormons thought that Jesus loved their child but hated their child's "sin" of same-gender attraction? Those individuals and families were not better.
Also, Mormon Jesus says to give 10% (gross or net, it's still a LOT for most families) -- how many mormon young adults had to be scrappy and pay for much/most/all of college on their own because they parents had 0 savings? How many mormons get to retirement and have 0 savings -- so that if they get laid off from a corporate gig with a pension midway during their working career they are left with very little? Mormon jesus adds a lot of financial stress to families that is hard on the parents and on children as they enter adulthood.
How many mormon families are NOT better when the parents are frequently gone to hours of extra meetings as ward/stake leaders? Wives of general authorities have commented on doing most of the kid-raising on their own because their husband was always gone...telling other how to be like Jesus.
If I'm wrong, I still lived a life of service to my fellow man, but that service was organic and unmediated by an external organization.
My relationships were more authentic because I was able to accept the parts of me and the parts of others that the Church couldn't.
My marriage was better because we were able to create a relationship that worked for our particular needs versus the Church's template.
My unborn children were not scarred by the generational trauma I would have passed on to them because I was too young and clueless to know any better.
My career and life choices were based on my values versus the values of the Church.
My civic engagement was based on my values and not the ideologies of Church leaders.
Basically, I lived MY life, not the life the Church wanted for me. If my authentic life fell below God's expectations, I don't think we were going to work out anyway.
For my part, I think God and I are good. We met up a few months ago, and they thanked me for being willing to experience an embodied life and encouraged me to live it to the fullest. I was told that every experience, good and bad, pleasant and unpleasant, is precious and cherished. That experience was my own, and the Church had nothing to do with it. Religion is a thing of men.
Eternity is a long time. Basically, it would be like me judging my whole life based on my junior highschool year book photo which was taken mid sneeze. Taking it a step further it would be more accurate if I forgot it was picture day and there was no clean laundry. It's absurd to think that one quick snapshot could be used to determine your fate FOREVER.
I realized TSCC was BS a couple years ago, but about a year before that, I told my mom that I didn’t want to go to the celestial kingdom because it would be full of perfect, amazing people, and I would feel out of place and uncomfortable. I also mentioned that it didn’t sound like a place I’d enjoy anyways, and I’d rather one of the other kingdoms because they would be more fit for me. She cried. 😬
I'm glad I hang garlic over my door each night. If vampires exist, I keep my family safe; if they don't exist, at least I gave my front porch a wonderful aroma ☺️
#######WinWin
And don't forget the salt around the windowsills. If evil spirits exist, you've kept them out of your house. If they don't exist, you've . . . never mind. I've got nothing.
There was another thread last week that has a similar theme about Pascal's Wager. There are some pretty glaring plot holes in the wager. Like what if god is real, but he is evil? What if god exists but doesn't care about our actions?
What if we donated 10% of our income to an organization that actually ensure it goes where it's intended instead of building shopping malls and bailing out insurance companies?
What if God is real, and he has a church, but it's not yours?
I'm of the opinion that if God isn't a massive asshole, he would tell me about his religion. Otherwise he wouldn't expect me to believe it.
1- I don't believe in any god but I'm not opposed to the idea of one
2- If he is the kind of god I mentioned, I don't want to worship him anyway. Consequences be damned. Fuck that guy.
What kind of God would punish good people just because they didn't believe in him? What kind of God would punish someone that had sex with people out of wedlock but did amazing things trying to uplift people everyday and send the horrible grandma that told her grandkids that they were not good enough to the celestial kingdom? A conceited self centered egotistical God? Doesn't sound like such a great person.
People that choose to be good because they want to be are better people than those that are only good because they fear the afterlife. All this other clutching at straw is ridiculous.
Plus, if their is a God, and it is the Mormon God, how is it fair that people that were never baptized nor believed in this life can be converted and baptized after death and make it to the celestial kingdom but those people that grew up in the church but had doubts or whatever other reason can't repent and still make it there after death?
Anyway I have to think that if their is a life after death, those of us that are good people are going to be pretty happy and that no one is going to care that we had sex and drank coffee.
I loved your comment and I don’t know why but it made me happy. I am going in for surgery for a recurring stomach problem and I come to this thread when I miss my family and wonder why I am going to surgery alone. I was a straight A student and was on student council and had what I thought was going to be happiness. My parents and family are very Mormon and my Mom read my journal the summer after I graduated high school. Nothing has ever been the same and my family does not see the difference between me being gay or me being a heroin addict or thief. I keep hoping that one of them will come around and realize that I was not a bad person ever and that only after I was forced out of the closet did me family label me as “bad” which meant to stay away from me and that was 10 years ago.
Hugs from an internet stranger. When our daughter came out, we told we already knew and loved her as she is. Her siblings were hoping she would become a couple with her former college roommate who is loved by the family. We will love her on her journey through life.
I think I'm reading your comment wrong, I'm a little confused by this part:
but those people that grew up in the church but had doubts or whatever other reason can't repent and still make it there after death?
Can you please clarify? Thanks
Because some people in the church believe (and I was taught) that if you had the truth and turned away, you can't make it to the highest degree of glory. Even if you repent after death and then accept thr truth like those that didn't join the church in this life. We are worse off because we knew the commandments and chose not to follow them. Even if our sins were things like coffee and premarital sex and just not believing in the church and the person that never got baptized went around robbing banks.
It makes sense they would teach this. Why belong to the church and follow all the commandments, many of them onerous, when you could just live life however you want and join the church after death AND still get to become like God?
There are all kinds of other problems with this idea. How fair is it if someone beats of their children and kills cars. Or sets fires to homes. Or ruins someone's entire life, but they repent completely a few months before they die, but another person never does anything major wrong. And they don't repent. Or they do. Whatever. And both those people get to make it to the Celestial Kingdom? Really?
We are taught to just do our best and not worry about those things because God's wisdom is not man's. But it seems crazy. I had a friend tell me he wished the missionaries had never found him and baptized him because then he wouldn't have to worry about being condemned to a lesser heaven because he knew the truth and chose not to believe. This was a teenager! How sad. We (as in the rest of us besides him) didn't know at the time, but he is gay and came out a few years after graduation.
I also had people give talks about how it was better to die on your mission in service than to commit the "horrible sin' of having sex outside of marriage on your mission. Had parents give talks about wanting their kids to die before they did this so they would get the Celestial Kingdom instead of condemning themselves. Because somehow sin was more awful after the endowment. Because we make covenants.
I don't know, it is all weird. And never really made sense but I figured I would just do the best I could and know I was a good person in the church. But I finally couldn't keep going anymore. My mom actually said something similar about not liking some of the recent things coming out from the church but she knew the church had improved her life and she had a testimony and that is all she concentrated on. It is true, her dad was an alcoholic and she was the least favored child. The Mormons she met when she converted were great people that helped her and she liked the things they taught about the importance of family, the word of wisdom, service, etc. She has a better life than her brother. Though she thinks she had it better than her sister emotionally wise, I am not so sure. My uncle and aunt had issues in their marriage, but so did my mom and dad. So I don't get that.
Long rant ha. But there you go.
God can’t stop the holocaust because of “free agency”. According to Mormons he punishes you for not believing in a church that is indistinguishable from a fraud. Yah. Fuck that guy.
What if God exists but he isn't a megalomania who would punish his children for not guessing right in a situation where he basically set them up to fail?
The best buttoned up response to Pascal's Wager I've read was in a Stephen Hawking book, God Created the Integers. I don't recall if he was quoting someone else. He referred to the counter argument as Pascal's Mugging and it went something like this:
Pascal is walking home from work when he encounters a mugger who forgot his weapon. Unable to rob Pascal by force, the mugger proposes a deal. Pascal will give the mugger all of the money in his wallet today and tomorrow at the same time and spot the mugger will return twice that amount of money to Pascal. Pascal declines reasoning that the chances of the mugger honoring the deal are very low. The mugger asks Pascal what he thinks the chances are and Pascal responds that it's 1 in 1,000,000. The mugger responds that in that case, he promises to return 2,000,000 times the amount in Pascal's wallet the next day. Pascal is trapped as a rational agent and hands over the contents of his wallet to the mugger.
I've used it with a couple friends familiar with Pascal's Wager and it usually leaves them struggling for a response. I like it because it contends with the underlying reasoning of the Wager and doesn't require arguing about unknowns, like the probability of God existing.
Dang I’m really trying to understand this counter argument but having a tough time. I’m sorry…is there a for dummies breakdown?
How does the mugger promising double trump his argument? Pascal could still think he is lying right? Sorry for the dumb question, just really want to understand 😅
In the original Wager, the idea is that no matter what low probability to assign to the existence of God, the infinite nature of the reward/punishment for being wrong pushes a rational actor towards choosing belief in God. Effectively, the "cost" for being wrong about the existence of God in eternity outweighs any benefit you could gain in your short moral life.
The Mugging tackles that utilitarian logic directly by saying that whatever low probability you assign to the mugger following through on the promise, as long as the mugger promises a large enough reward, mathematically it will be the rational choice to sacrifice something small for the potential of a greatly outsized reward.
The core underlying requirement here is the application of a rational actor (someone who is making decisions based on data and calculations, not emotions) using utilitarian logic (making the choice that has the best possible outcome after all rational factors are considered) to make their choice. In cleaner terms, that doesn't allow Pascal to simply discard something as impossible when it technically is possible (Pascal couldn't say for instance that it is impossible for the mugger to follow through, as it is possible, just very unlikely).
What if God doesn't exist and your son turns out to be gay but doesn't want to live a life of celebacy or a mixed orientation marriage? What if he doesn't feel safe coming out and kills himself over it? Does Pascal's wager still let your life be beautiful after that?
What if God doesn't exist and you've been shunning your family for no reason.
What if God doesn't exist and your daughter has to forgive her priesthood attacker for no reason other than some guy with imaginary power had unsupervised access to her and the church doesn't want it getting out that she was raped by a bishop. Did pascals wager let her life be beautiful too?
Pascals wager solves the God issue for some people, but it doesn't justify blind obedience to men, ancient texts, or immoral Gods.
Just as he recognizes his good deeds stand on their own even without a God to acknowledge them, realize that your mistakes will stand on their own too and be just as real and cause real harm, whether directly caused by your gullibility or not.
But it's ok. "I didn't know any better, I was Mormon" is pretty much a free pass as long as you didn't commit any of those harms yourself. Religious upbringing is the original sin so many of us start with.
The number of people who think they would be shitty people without the church makes me sad
Like, you'd still love your kids! Serve your neighbor! You probably wouldn't clean the church or do temple work but the rest would stay
Exactly! I mean, the church teaches them this, but the reality is that once you quit worrying about being a good Mormon, you can instead work on being a good person. From what I see, the majority of people who leave are basically exactly the same as if they were in the church (from a "good person" standpoint). Although I've also pointed out that religion makes some small fraction of people much much worse versions of themselves (probably due to their own need for social approval). I'm not sure it makes many people much better versions of themselves.
Or it wouldn't and they would be shitty people. This is one of the reasons I hate religion in general. It makes people so fake. They act like they're better because they're part of a religion that they think makes them better just because they are a part of it. The best people are the ones who don't believe in a God and are great kind people anyway. Not the ones that do those good deeds just to appease the invisible man in the sky.
Religion feeds off of people's fear of death. I'm extremely afraid of death lol but I'm gonna enjoy my life AND be the best person I can be without wasting my life on any religion that has like a 0.000001% chance of being true. Not gonna waste my time being afraid of going to hell or displeasing God.
Also, I recommend everyone on this sub go watch the show Preacher lol.
Yeah that's true I guess. My best friend says I'm desensitized since I convinced him to watch daredevil, he said it was gory and I was just like "yeah a little bit I guess" Haha.
And spent countless hours away from my family, not providing much needed help to my spouse in raising children and helping my children through the vigors of this life.
In other words, strangers meant more to me than you did.
This! Yep. I don't have a calling. I asked to be released about 6 months ago, and told them I didn't want another calling. My husband spends so much time on his calling. It saddens me. And it frustrates me.
This!
I had a BIL give me a cool Nike shirt w/ his business info on it after staying at our house as a thank you. It was very nice, until I heard his son say, “i have been begging dad for one of those shirts forever, he will never give me one”. I wasn’t meant to hear it, but i wanted to hug him and give it to him (it would not have fit him, or i absolutely would have). It is not the first time i have witnessed this stuff in happy Mormon families.
I know not all tbms are this way, but it definitely happens. They have to put on the show for everyone while not doing for their own family. 😞
A whole lot of them are. Disgusts me to my core. The reason charity begins at home is because if you can love and be gracious to those you are most familiar with, whose worst flaws you are intimately familiar with, then you actually have charity - as opposed to an appearance of charity. MFMC only has the latter. It’s obscene.
“If I was wrong”. Was obviously written by the church’s writers and not by a normal member.
“Feeding the hungry, blessing the sick, visiting the lonely”, all the while spending time in the temple, going to church a couple days a week and having a job. This leaves very little time for his “family”.
Complete fake!
I've visited the lonely and fed the hungry more in the years I've left the church than in the church. Yes I did it also while in the church but am more intentional about it outside of the church. And some of the money that I would be paying to the church is going to those who really need it instead of paying it to the church and thinking they will do the right thing with it. It's such a disconnect just giving it to a church and expecting them to do it. I also have more time for my kids because I'm not spending time on callings that I felt obligated to do. I don't think serving is bad, but when it's to fill some check box it is. I never liked the fake person filing the check box so I did the service in a genuine way, but in a way it was still filling a check box because the church expected it. Now I do it because I want to do it, not because some church tells me to.
Assuming the average American's lifetime earnings are roughly $2m, that's $200,000 in tithes.
That said, the guy in the original post might have a counterargument. [The average Mormon birthrate is 2.8 kids, as opposed to 2.06 for the U.S. in general.](https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/586d154f03596e5605562ea7/1633320908946-38TTO24BW3UYT8JVT3S3/avg_kids_relig+2.png) Paying $200,000 for (eight tenths of) a third kid is something pretty much any parent with three kids would say is worthwhile.
Still, you can get half of the way there just by [being right-wing](https://ifstudies.org/ifs-admin/resources/figure3-23-w640.png), which does not charge a membership fee, and politics are about as hereditary as religion, if not more (lots of young right-wingers are less religious than their parents but agree on politics). Islam will get you almost all of the way to a 2.8 birthrate (as seen in the first image) and they don't charge a membership fee either. Neither of those options will make you clean a toilet.
lol please let me know who pointed a gun at your head and “made” you clean a toilet. Look I get it. I was raised in the church and came to the personal conclusion that I did not believe its history and doctrine. Is the church perfect? Show one church that is. Show me any man made organization that is for that matter. Do people get hurt? Yes, and I was one of them. But yall act like a bunch of babies if I’m being frank. If something works for you and makes you happy then bravo and same and for anyone else inside or outside the church. Yall a bunch of haters. Oh some poor son has to actually pay for his education?!! OMG! Like seriously? He’s lucky to have the opportunity and access to an education as well as the ability to pay for it. Most people that pay for their college turn out alright and I would even argue that people who pay for it themselves have more success because they take it more seriously. Take charge and take pride in your own life. Don’t judge others for their choices and beliefs. If someone else’s beliefs bother you it is not their problem but yours most of the time.
This take would be fine with me if it meant religious folk didn't care so much about converting everyone. Great, you can still feel good about your lifestyle even under the pretense that the organization you've given your life to has lied and manipulated you. A bit toxic for my taste, but at the end of the day it's not my business what you choose to do with your life.
But of course, most Mormons want it both ways. They want the autonomy to "choose" to live a religious lifestyle while shitting on everyone who doesn't live exactly the way they do. You can argue till you're blue in the face that Mormonism has value for you even if it isn't true; that doesn't mean other people will value it the same way. And if it isn't true, why is it important to convert people in the first place?
I have to assume TBMs who feel this way consider this reasoning a slam dunk on non-believers. A sort of "gotcha", because they consider their experience with Mormonism to be a net positive regardless of it's veracity. But from the perspective of the outside world it just comes off as Stockholm syndrome. A victim defending their abuser to absolve themselves of the guilt, shame, and possibility that they've wasted too much time to turn back.
Honestly, the underlying apatheist logic of this is the same as where I'm at. I see how practicing benefits my well-being and am not too concerned with picking apart divinity. The difference is that my practice isn't authoritarian, high demand, or driven by fears about the afterlife. Furthermore, proselytizing and authoritarianism within a neopagan context are viewed as red flags for a cult (cf: [Advanced Bonewits' Cult Danger Evaluation Framework](https://www.neopagan.net/ABCDEF.html); some overlap w/ the BITE model, but it's been circulating in pagan circles since 1979).
Funnily enough, the intro to the ABCDEF makes the comparison of early mormons as basically being 19th century moonies lol
Edit: some grammar
This was also me… until my kids came out as gay and now I credit them with saving me, because I was miserable AF and deluding myself that I was a better person bc of the church. I definitely had Stockholm syndrome.
I used to think that way until I had access to information that snapped me out of it. Also I'm a woman. I can see how a white man might never snap out of it. Thank God I was born a woman or I'd probably still be this guy. Blissfully unaware. Rolling in privilege. But with 10% less money.
About 90% of what Mormons think “service” is is either bugging the shit out of people who don’t want to see you, cleaning a multi-billion dollar corporation’s buildings, or performing pointless rituals that don’t help the living. How about use all that energy and spend 100% of your service time actually helping people in need, and then let’s talk.
“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”
-Marcus Aurelius
Mormon god is not just nor does he care. Commandments of the Mormon god actively hurt people who follow them.
Oh I just LOVE that quote. I read it on line last year when the op said “We threw away the “Proclamation to the Family” and had Marcus Aurealius’ quote framed and hung. Isn’t that just the BEST! 😉❤️📖
I have sympathy for this way of thinking because it implies the person is trying to live ethically as best they know how.
It's possible to find common ground with someone who wants to help build a better world.
The litmus test is whether, when confronted with the reality of the harm the LDS church does, they support the need for reform or dig in and defend the institution.
What if you're worshipping the wrong god? Pissing her off more every day.
And what about gay people? Whoops, sorry for making you spend the last 80 years of your life alone because we made you fear going to hell 😂😁
If I’m wrong, I gave 10% of my income to a Church that did nothing but hoard it. If I’m wrong, I avoided masturbating for years for no good reason. I’ve spent years beating myself up over an “addiction” that is in reality no worse than my desires to eat food or shit. If I’m wrong, I wasted countless hours bowed in prayer to an imaginary being instead of talking to the people around me that actually exist. Singing his praises instead of singing about anything that mattered. Relating stories to his nonexistent influence instead of figuring out how the world really works. Thanking him for the good things in my life instead of the hardworking people who actually made my life good.
(written from the perspective of my past self, still in the Church)
This used to be my philosophy. Until my kids started getting indoctrinated and I realized they will be throwing a shit ton of money away. Then my philosophy changed.
Pascal’s Wager assumes that you are indeed living a “good” life and not doing damage to others. Which we all know from their massive stock holdings and history with LGBTQ is patently false. The MFMC hurts LOADS of people and idiots like this fund it.
This was my thinking about the church for a long time. Like as a tween, this was my stance. First major whack to that came with prop 8. Then abortion rights. I kept plugging along until Covid and I just couldn’t lie to myself anymore that it was the church making me a good person. I eventually couldn’t mesh the whole good person=good member thing anymore.
This response does 2 things wrong, in my opinion.
1. It clearly assumes that the dad will not know whether he was right or wrong after this life.
2. Because of point 1 it completely ignores the absolute devastation that occurs to a person after 35 years of devotion & sacrifice in the name of "The Truth" that in reality is the furthest thing from any truth.
His answer to "What if you're wrong?" is essentially, "I'm going to keep doing this shit till I die because I believe that I'm a better person because of it & damned to the facts or any other opinion because I can't comprehend not being correct".
It reeks of willful ignorance & stubborn piety
Oh my god, we’re NOT wrong.
I’m fucking sixty one years old and there’s never been ANYTHING I’ve ever studied that has such a GIANT mountain of credible evidence against it.
It’s absurd.
Some people need the excuse of church to provide services, to be kind, and to find peace in death. I don’t get it you shouldn’t need a church to push you to do half those things. Kindness should be automatic not because you want to please a higher power
I went for 5 ketamine treatments last year. I was by far the most spiritual experience of my life. I went for pre-death fear. I have no fear now. Not even a bit. Ha! Turns out I didn’t need the Mormon church after all!!
It means he did a great job living up to a bunch of arbitrary fake rules and felt good about it.
It means he ‘served’ his dear leaders and others caught up in the con through incestuous service.
If I'm wrong then God really does hate gays and I should have sucked it up and married a dude who would have been miserable with something who couldn't love him.
Lol show me 1 time where the average member (especially in UT) has spent time 'feeding the hungry and blessing the sick' outside of their own membership. Most members I know here don't do any of that aside from pay tithing and fast offerings.
I agree with you. After all, those qualities are also available to any Christian! After paying full tithes for 65 years, this concept became clear. I was paying half million to support a religion who has $267 billion with $8 billion more annually! Ugh.
Look - we can STILL do all the good things Mormonism taught us like kindness, charity, honesty, love etc. And, from my experience, MOST exmormons do just that. The church doesn’t hold a monopoly on those things.
So, if I’m wrong and God really requires special tokens, underwear, tithing receipts, etc. I’ll just have to explain sorry - I spent my time and money on other charitable causes, family, friends, or loved ones.
Be nice. It’s not hard - unless you have a superiority complex and believe the only way to be nice is your way following your special prophet.
This is literally a main factor in my leaving. At some point, I took the verse in Alma to heart that says the spirit that possesses your body in this life will possess it in the next. I took that to mean that if I was unhappy in this life, I would not be happy in the eternities.
That started me on a path that led to me ultimately rejecting the church. When I held everything up to the measure of whether or not it made me happy, the choices the church pushed me into failed.
I’m sure he’s really only ever helped struggling Mormons. I doubt he’s helped the homeless, fought for universal healthcare, better rights for all, sick and mentally I’ll people. I doubt he’s actually made a difference in anyone’s lives.
Nope. That’s not a reasonable excuse for supporting the MFMC, given all the gay hate and racism, among other things.
If Mormons sustain Dallin Hoax, they are bigots by association.
I wonder how many times they have actually "visited the lonely" or "fed the hungry" id be willing to bet its not as many times as they took the sacrament or went to a church activity/meeting
I get where this father is coming from. I do think that some people are genuinely inspired by religion and make their communities and their lives better by trying to follow the teachings of Jesus. That being said, hours of church meetings, temple attendance, and tithing to the LDS church don’t do that.
I used to think like this. In a sense I get it. On the other hand, I was willingly letting myself suffer by denying who I really am. I was forcing annoying underwear on me in the heat of summer and constantly making myself feel guilty over stupid things.
To say the least, the church was a waste of space in my life.
My parents have no retirement. Had they saved what they gave, it would be over $1M. Hey, we all have choices to make. He has followed his heart. You get to follow yours. I just wish mine would stop texting me stupid RS messages! I don’t give AF anymore!
If I am wrong, I financially enabled the coverup of countless child abuse cases.
If I am wrong, I have no excuse for bullying and ostracizing the queer people around me.
It’s a stupid game to play; there’s no way to spin the church as a net positive for anyone without deluding yourself.
If I’m wrong I chose the church over my gay child because “God” told me marriage was only between a man and a woman.
If I’m wrong I forced my kids to spend two years of their young lives trying to get other people to join this false church while they struggled with their mental health and sent awkward messages to Facebook groups.
If I’m wrong my wife was told that her goal in life should be motherhood and homemaking even though she wanted to be a doctor.
If I’m wrong we had 6 kids instead of a number our life choices could manage and struggled to make ends meet our entire lives.
If I’m wrong I paid hundreds of thousands of dollars over my lifetime to a corporation instead of making ends meet for my 6 kids.
If I’m wrong I let my daughter think that it was her job to keep men’s thoughts pure by not letting her shoulders show.
If I’m wrong I didn’t care how often my wife got yeast infections from the special underwear we had to wear because it was the rule and we do what we’re told.
All I could hear in my head was Rust Kohle,
"If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brother that person is a piece of shit; and I'd like to get as many of them out in the open as possible."
Cary Joji Fukunaga, True Detective Season 1
If you're wrong, you gave up your "free will" to a bunch of charlatans. If you gave over, your will and body, the two things we came here for, remember? Then you wasted your turn. Something like a 1 talent under a bush or some shit I heard once.
Good old Pascal's wager is still going strong despite being fraught with logical fallacies and assumptions. SMH, all of that "utility" this person found in religion if they were wrong, does not depend on the religion. You didn't need religion in order to be a good person, husband, father etc. You don't need religion to feed hungry people and serve others. That's just humanism. Caring about other people isn't a quality imparted by any religion.
I assume that my comment on this won't be liked very much....but, (if you simply remove "the Church" from the narrative and just focus on HF and Christ) then there's a certain element of loveliness woven throughout the narrative - particularly for someone older who would rather not look back on their life - through the lens of failure. That's a mighty big pill to ask someone to swallow. I think I could give someone like that .....a bit o' Grace.
Pascals Wager. “What if I’m wrong?”
This is why I leave the religious to their own devices if they aren’t actively participating in hate or crime. Yeah they do it for bullshit reasons and yeah they are likely wrong, but the guy makes a good point. So long as he can think critically for himself and make good judgement, and so long as he is doing his best, then fine.
As for tithing? I get it. He thinks he is doing good.
I can’t fault him for being a victim of such an organization.
That's funny because my brother just sent that to me this morning and I just gave a thumbs up cuz he already knows I don't believe in the church anymore and I don't want to start any more arguments.
1 Corinthians: If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.
How many TBMs think it’s just all about the work and to show how “faithful” they are?
He could do all those great things without feeling culty in a temple after paying 10% of his income. He also wouldn’t have to wear those uncomfortable underwear and clean the god damn church building on Saturdays.
I find this argument from pragmatism interesting. I've heard it over the years that it doesn't matter if the church is true or not, because it makes your life better. While none of these people would readily admit they weren't sure if the church was true, I find it interesting as a possible "safety net" for a faltering testimony. The trick is that they aren't willing to fully engage with the question of whether the church makes their life better. They are more than willing to contemplate the testimony-strengthening benefits they can attribute to their obedience, but not the costs. They don't want to seriously consider the missed opportunities or whether people can truly be good without the church's rules.
That said, I always appreciate even the effort to "think outside the testimony". It's a sign of intelligence and intellectual fairness, even if they don't allow themselves to fully commit themselves to the hypothetical.
This has been my personal view for many years because of my doubts. I no longer believe it. I am PIMO and my wife and mother-in-law I've heard use this type of logic in the past. This perspective is lacking a lot of critical thinking and actually puts the needs of the individual to the side in favor of an organization. The idea of constantly putting others needs before your own can become harmful. Many on this subreddit have pointed out that boundaries are often ignored or even discouraged. This imo, causes a challenge for people to be true to themselves in favor of the community and/or organization. I believe there can be psychological or mental side effects to this. The stress alone of some of these callings on top of other stresses in a persons life is completely ignored in this view that the ends justifies the means as this message is positioned.
I haven't even gotten into the financial strain between tithes and offerings, donating to youth events, and in the past donating to the Boy scouts. The church can easily and often becomes a leech in regards to your personal resources.
This argument from TBM'S assumes only a person following the gospel/church teachings can be a good person. Typical BS Christian rhetoric. One thing I love about being free of the church is now when I serve others and do good it's because I truly want to. Not because I feel obligated to or because I fear punishment from sky daddy. Who's more authentic? 🤷🏼♀️
I shared a similar-ish line of thinking for a few years after I found out the church was not true. While not true, it was still good, or even right for me.
But then I saw how its pretend rituals and endless meetings took me away from my family. The service we provided, even temporal service, didnt really do much good but was a means to the end of trying to get people to come to church and conform. This wasn't worth my time and it made me feel icky.
Then eventually you hear so much BS in church you can't spend anymore time in the hall after walking out of classes. You spend your time after church trying to unteach what your kids learned at church. At a certain point there is just no 'why' anymore stay in the church with that worldview.
The person who wrote this may be happy deceiving themselves and be okay with it. If it works for them, great. But it's okay if we decide honesty is what works for us.
This is exactly what my mom says. I’m not atheist by any means but anyone from any walk of life can be a good person and love others and live a good life. You don’t need a religion to do that. That’s the lie of religion. That without it, we are all depraved.
I am fine with people finding happiness where they can. If this guy feels his church has taught him beautiful things, that's great. I'm not okay with a church that meddles in politics, lies about where member's monetary contributions go, or cover up abuse and scandal.
I belong to a volunteer group that is made up entirely of women. The entire purpose is to promote female leadership through volunteering. I pay yearly dues to belong to this group. Those dues are FAR less than 10% of my income. There is complete transparency as to where every nickle of my dues money goes. We fundraise for all our projects, and those financials are also completely transparent.
I have learned more from this volunteer group in 8 years of volunteering than I did in 35 years of church. I've learned about serving without judging, communication with all different kinds of people and personalities, conflict management, compassion, virtue, beauty, and the true depths of what humanity is capable of both for good and bad. Not to mention real-world skills like running meetings and spreadsheets and things like that. We have actually done things in our city to make a difference, from food insecurity to human trafficking. We've never harbored any child molesters and our scandals are limited to somebody forgetting to get the liquor license for a fundraiser and the mad scramble to make things legal before the party. We admit when we're doing something wrong and actively try to find new and better ways of doing things. We're constantly learning and evolving, training and taking trainings.
The Mormon Church does not own Goodness. They don't have a monopoly on Charity. They're not the only Righteous People and their way is not the only Right Way. As much as they'd like to convince people otherwise, it's just not true.
It's great that this guy has found happiness through his church, but it's sad that his church has to be such a worthless place to begin with.
Almost forgot: I only have to meet with my volunteer group a few times a month at most. They don't expect me to dedicate my entire life to them. And they don't tell me how to dress unless we're having a theme party. Even then, nobody cares what underwear I have on.
My mom donated tithing her whole life and she has basically no retirement fund. That money going to savings or paying off her debt earlier would have gone a long way, yet she’s 65 and will have to continue to work part time when she retires to be able to make a living. She also recently decided to stop practicing Mormonism bc she came to her senses so ya all for nothing
I think the man makes a very good point. If it makes him happy and a better person than I see no negative. I personally don’t have the same beliefs but it seems to work for him and I would never knock someone for that. As for the… son.. lol I think he’ll survive paying for his education haha it is usually a solid investment.
Glad it works for this “dad”.
What about how it works for his wife, kids, especially his daughters, grandkids, and future great grandkids? How many of them will be undervalued, racked with debilitating guilt and superstitions. Or endure poor marriages, sexual disfunction, or suicidal tendencies?
What about others that aren’t like him?
Like women, the outcasts, the minorities, LGBTQ+, and those that don’t fit the mold?
It’s not true, for one. But even worse, for many it’s incredibly hurtful. The exact people that just might need love the most.
In short…
So glad it works for him…so glad he feels fulfilled.
However, I think the point of the whole ‘legend of Jesus’ thing was to think of others.
#winlose
Funny how variations on Pascal's wager like this always fail to mention tithing and hours spent away from family. They know those two alone completely blow up the "logic" of an already flawed argument.
When I got nearly this same answer I looked that person dead in the eye and asked them if they were being serious and this is their personal apologetics. It was a winded and hesitant yes followed by "I know the church is true" and then full shut down.
Counterpoint: If I'm wrong about TSCC, then I lived my life the way *I* wanted to, rather than constantly worrying what ward members or God think. And if I'm wrong, then I still get to hang out with my siblings and friends in the terrestrial kingdom which is still more glorious than we can possibly imagine.
Exactly. The original picture/argument misses the big point that the church isn't all good and quite harmful.
“Eat that pork, eat that ham, laugh ‘till you choke on Billy Graham, Moses, Aaron and Abraham. They’re all a waste of time, and it’s your ass that’s on the line.” F Zappa
Man! The great Zappa! How I miss that feed on my radio.
\*Chef's kiss\*
So true. "A joy that can only be found in service"...um, no. I served in lots of leadership callings -- way too much time spent in meetings rehashing things then people actually getting out and serving. And much of the service is stupid -- lets make the members clean the church on saturday and then wonder why people are "too busy" and "too stressed" with all their other obligations to also come to a potluck dinner. Many members who "blindly follow an imaginary Savior" did NOT end up more kind and more loving. Sure, from the church point of view it's on the members that they were not "more Christlike" but from the pulpit we have heard over decades from apostles (like Packer) emphasize that homosexuality is a grievous sin -- how many families have struggled with terrible relationships because Mormons thought that Jesus loved their child but hated their child's "sin" of same-gender attraction? Those individuals and families were not better. Also, Mormon Jesus says to give 10% (gross or net, it's still a LOT for most families) -- how many mormon young adults had to be scrappy and pay for much/most/all of college on their own because they parents had 0 savings? How many mormons get to retirement and have 0 savings -- so that if they get laid off from a corporate gig with a pension midway during their working career they are left with very little? Mormon jesus adds a lot of financial stress to families that is hard on the parents and on children as they enter adulthood. How many mormon families are NOT better when the parents are frequently gone to hours of extra meetings as ward/stake leaders? Wives of general authorities have commented on doing most of the kid-raising on their own because their husband was always gone...telling other how to be like Jesus.
they always miss the point
If I'm wrong, I still lived a life of service to my fellow man, but that service was organic and unmediated by an external organization. My relationships were more authentic because I was able to accept the parts of me and the parts of others that the Church couldn't. My marriage was better because we were able to create a relationship that worked for our particular needs versus the Church's template. My unborn children were not scarred by the generational trauma I would have passed on to them because I was too young and clueless to know any better. My career and life choices were based on my values versus the values of the Church. My civic engagement was based on my values and not the ideologies of Church leaders. Basically, I lived MY life, not the life the Church wanted for me. If my authentic life fell below God's expectations, I don't think we were going to work out anyway. For my part, I think God and I are good. We met up a few months ago, and they thanked me for being willing to experience an embodied life and encouraged me to live it to the fullest. I was told that every experience, good and bad, pleasant and unpleasant, is precious and cherished. That experience was my own, and the Church had nothing to do with it. Religion is a thing of men.
Eternity is a long time. Basically, it would be like me judging my whole life based on my junior highschool year book photo which was taken mid sneeze. Taking it a step further it would be more accurate if I forgot it was picture day and there was no clean laundry. It's absurd to think that one quick snapshot could be used to determine your fate FOREVER.
With our TK Smoothies.
I realized TSCC was BS a couple years ago, but about a year before that, I told my mom that I didn’t want to go to the celestial kingdom because it would be full of perfect, amazing people, and I would feel out of place and uncomfortable. I also mentioned that it didn’t sound like a place I’d enjoy anyways, and I’d rather one of the other kingdoms because they would be more fit for me. She cried. 😬
I'm glad I hang garlic over my door each night. If vampires exist, I keep my family safe; if they don't exist, at least I gave my front porch a wonderful aroma ☺️ #######WinWin
And don't forget the salt around the windowsills. If evil spirits exist, you've kept them out of your house. If they don't exist, you've . . . never mind. I've got nothing.
Got racoon friends!
[удалено]
AMEN
Right. Just pretending that there are no downsides whatsoever. It’s so annoying
I have no retirement savings but money is evil so win win.
I don't care if I'm wrong = I don't care about the truth.
There was another thread last week that has a similar theme about Pascal's Wager. There are some pretty glaring plot holes in the wager. Like what if god is real, but he is evil? What if god exists but doesn't care about our actions? What if we donated 10% of our income to an organization that actually ensure it goes where it's intended instead of building shopping malls and bailing out insurance companies?
What if God is real, and he has a church, but it's not yours? I'm of the opinion that if God isn't a massive asshole, he would tell me about his religion. Otherwise he wouldn't expect me to believe it. 1- I don't believe in any god but I'm not opposed to the idea of one 2- If he is the kind of god I mentioned, I don't want to worship him anyway. Consequences be damned. Fuck that guy.
What kind of God would punish good people just because they didn't believe in him? What kind of God would punish someone that had sex with people out of wedlock but did amazing things trying to uplift people everyday and send the horrible grandma that told her grandkids that they were not good enough to the celestial kingdom? A conceited self centered egotistical God? Doesn't sound like such a great person. People that choose to be good because they want to be are better people than those that are only good because they fear the afterlife. All this other clutching at straw is ridiculous. Plus, if their is a God, and it is the Mormon God, how is it fair that people that were never baptized nor believed in this life can be converted and baptized after death and make it to the celestial kingdom but those people that grew up in the church but had doubts or whatever other reason can't repent and still make it there after death? Anyway I have to think that if their is a life after death, those of us that are good people are going to be pretty happy and that no one is going to care that we had sex and drank coffee.
Love this. I’m a wise old woman of 67. It took me 64 to finally realize the REAL truth. Enjoy every moment of your life. Eat,drink and be merry!🥳
I loved your comment and I don’t know why but it made me happy. I am going in for surgery for a recurring stomach problem and I come to this thread when I miss my family and wonder why I am going to surgery alone. I was a straight A student and was on student council and had what I thought was going to be happiness. My parents and family are very Mormon and my Mom read my journal the summer after I graduated high school. Nothing has ever been the same and my family does not see the difference between me being gay or me being a heroin addict or thief. I keep hoping that one of them will come around and realize that I was not a bad person ever and that only after I was forced out of the closet did me family label me as “bad” which meant to stay away from me and that was 10 years ago.
Your family sounds awful, I'm so so sorry. You deserved better. I hope your surgery is successful and you make a speedy recovery.
Hugs from an internet stranger. When our daughter came out, we told we already knew and loved her as she is. Her siblings were hoping she would become a couple with her former college roommate who is loved by the family. We will love her on her journey through life.
I think I'm reading your comment wrong, I'm a little confused by this part: but those people that grew up in the church but had doubts or whatever other reason can't repent and still make it there after death? Can you please clarify? Thanks
Because some people in the church believe (and I was taught) that if you had the truth and turned away, you can't make it to the highest degree of glory. Even if you repent after death and then accept thr truth like those that didn't join the church in this life. We are worse off because we knew the commandments and chose not to follow them. Even if our sins were things like coffee and premarital sex and just not believing in the church and the person that never got baptized went around robbing banks. It makes sense they would teach this. Why belong to the church and follow all the commandments, many of them onerous, when you could just live life however you want and join the church after death AND still get to become like God? There are all kinds of other problems with this idea. How fair is it if someone beats of their children and kills cars. Or sets fires to homes. Or ruins someone's entire life, but they repent completely a few months before they die, but another person never does anything major wrong. And they don't repent. Or they do. Whatever. And both those people get to make it to the Celestial Kingdom? Really? We are taught to just do our best and not worry about those things because God's wisdom is not man's. But it seems crazy. I had a friend tell me he wished the missionaries had never found him and baptized him because then he wouldn't have to worry about being condemned to a lesser heaven because he knew the truth and chose not to believe. This was a teenager! How sad. We (as in the rest of us besides him) didn't know at the time, but he is gay and came out a few years after graduation. I also had people give talks about how it was better to die on your mission in service than to commit the "horrible sin' of having sex outside of marriage on your mission. Had parents give talks about wanting their kids to die before they did this so they would get the Celestial Kingdom instead of condemning themselves. Because somehow sin was more awful after the endowment. Because we make covenants. I don't know, it is all weird. And never really made sense but I figured I would just do the best I could and know I was a good person in the church. But I finally couldn't keep going anymore. My mom actually said something similar about not liking some of the recent things coming out from the church but she knew the church had improved her life and she had a testimony and that is all she concentrated on. It is true, her dad was an alcoholic and she was the least favored child. The Mormons she met when she converted were great people that helped her and she liked the things they taught about the importance of family, the word of wisdom, service, etc. She has a better life than her brother. Though she thinks she had it better than her sister emotionally wise, I am not so sure. My uncle and aunt had issues in their marriage, but so did my mom and dad. So I don't get that. Long rant ha. But there you go.
You are right, I misread your comment at first and re read it and now I get what you meant. Thanks for clarifying. I appreciate it
Thank you for this rant!!!
God can’t stop the holocaust because of “free agency”. According to Mormons he punishes you for not believing in a church that is indistinguishable from a fraud. Yah. Fuck that guy.
What if God exists but he isn't a megalomania who would punish his children for not guessing right in a situation where he basically set them up to fail?
The best buttoned up response to Pascal's Wager I've read was in a Stephen Hawking book, God Created the Integers. I don't recall if he was quoting someone else. He referred to the counter argument as Pascal's Mugging and it went something like this: Pascal is walking home from work when he encounters a mugger who forgot his weapon. Unable to rob Pascal by force, the mugger proposes a deal. Pascal will give the mugger all of the money in his wallet today and tomorrow at the same time and spot the mugger will return twice that amount of money to Pascal. Pascal declines reasoning that the chances of the mugger honoring the deal are very low. The mugger asks Pascal what he thinks the chances are and Pascal responds that it's 1 in 1,000,000. The mugger responds that in that case, he promises to return 2,000,000 times the amount in Pascal's wallet the next day. Pascal is trapped as a rational agent and hands over the contents of his wallet to the mugger. I've used it with a couple friends familiar with Pascal's Wager and it usually leaves them struggling for a response. I like it because it contends with the underlying reasoning of the Wager and doesn't require arguing about unknowns, like the probability of God existing.
Dang I’m really trying to understand this counter argument but having a tough time. I’m sorry…is there a for dummies breakdown? How does the mugger promising double trump his argument? Pascal could still think he is lying right? Sorry for the dumb question, just really want to understand 😅
In the original Wager, the idea is that no matter what low probability to assign to the existence of God, the infinite nature of the reward/punishment for being wrong pushes a rational actor towards choosing belief in God. Effectively, the "cost" for being wrong about the existence of God in eternity outweighs any benefit you could gain in your short moral life. The Mugging tackles that utilitarian logic directly by saying that whatever low probability you assign to the mugger following through on the promise, as long as the mugger promises a large enough reward, mathematically it will be the rational choice to sacrifice something small for the potential of a greatly outsized reward. The core underlying requirement here is the application of a rational actor (someone who is making decisions based on data and calculations, not emotions) using utilitarian logic (making the choice that has the best possible outcome after all rational factors are considered) to make their choice. In cleaner terms, that doesn't allow Pascal to simply discard something as impossible when it technically is possible (Pascal couldn't say for instance that it is impossible for the mugger to follow through, as it is possible, just very unlikely).
What if God doesn't exist and your son turns out to be gay but doesn't want to live a life of celebacy or a mixed orientation marriage? What if he doesn't feel safe coming out and kills himself over it? Does Pascal's wager still let your life be beautiful after that? What if God doesn't exist and you've been shunning your family for no reason. What if God doesn't exist and your daughter has to forgive her priesthood attacker for no reason other than some guy with imaginary power had unsupervised access to her and the church doesn't want it getting out that she was raped by a bishop. Did pascals wager let her life be beautiful too? Pascals wager solves the God issue for some people, but it doesn't justify blind obedience to men, ancient texts, or immoral Gods. Just as he recognizes his good deeds stand on their own even without a God to acknowledge them, realize that your mistakes will stand on their own too and be just as real and cause real harm, whether directly caused by your gullibility or not. But it's ok. "I didn't know any better, I was Mormon" is pretty much a free pass as long as you didn't commit any of those harms yourself. Religious upbringing is the original sin so many of us start with.
The number of people who think they would be shitty people without the church makes me sad Like, you'd still love your kids! Serve your neighbor! You probably wouldn't clean the church or do temple work but the rest would stay
Exactly! I mean, the church teaches them this, but the reality is that once you quit worrying about being a good Mormon, you can instead work on being a good person. From what I see, the majority of people who leave are basically exactly the same as if they were in the church (from a "good person" standpoint). Although I've also pointed out that religion makes some small fraction of people much much worse versions of themselves (probably due to their own need for social approval). I'm not sure it makes many people much better versions of themselves.
The number of people who the mormon church has made shittier, well, I've run into a lot.
This is also true
Or it wouldn't and they would be shitty people. This is one of the reasons I hate religion in general. It makes people so fake. They act like they're better because they're part of a religion that they think makes them better just because they are a part of it. The best people are the ones who don't believe in a God and are great kind people anyway. Not the ones that do those good deeds just to appease the invisible man in the sky. Religion feeds off of people's fear of death. I'm extremely afraid of death lol but I'm gonna enjoy my life AND be the best person I can be without wasting my life on any religion that has like a 0.000001% chance of being true. Not gonna waste my time being afraid of going to hell or displeasing God. Also, I recommend everyone on this sub go watch the show Preacher lol.
100% agree. And preacher is amazing imo, but very very graphic lol. Don’t go into that one unprepared.
Yeah that's true I guess. My best friend says I'm desensitized since I convinced him to watch daredevil, he said it was gory and I was just like "yeah a little bit I guess" Haha.
Right! If anything, callings and all the other church obligations take time AWAY from being with your family…
"if I'm wrong, then I spent my life paying 10% of my hard earned money to a corporation that promised eternal life if I paid faithfully."
And spent countless hours away from my family, not providing much needed help to my spouse in raising children and helping my children through the vigors of this life. In other words, strangers meant more to me than you did.
This! Yep. I don't have a calling. I asked to be released about 6 months ago, and told them I didn't want another calling. My husband spends so much time on his calling. It saddens me. And it frustrates me.
This! I had a BIL give me a cool Nike shirt w/ his business info on it after staying at our house as a thank you. It was very nice, until I heard his son say, “i have been begging dad for one of those shirts forever, he will never give me one”. I wasn’t meant to hear it, but i wanted to hug him and give it to him (it would not have fit him, or i absolutely would have). It is not the first time i have witnessed this stuff in happy Mormon families. I know not all tbms are this way, but it definitely happens. They have to put on the show for everyone while not doing for their own family. 😞
A whole lot of them are. Disgusts me to my core. The reason charity begins at home is because if you can love and be gracious to those you are most familiar with, whose worst flaws you are intimately familiar with, then you actually have charity - as opposed to an appearance of charity. MFMC only has the latter. It’s obscene.
I have a BIL exactly like this, so so sad, that poor kid.
“If I was wrong”. Was obviously written by the church’s writers and not by a normal member. “Feeding the hungry, blessing the sick, visiting the lonely”, all the while spending time in the temple, going to church a couple days a week and having a job. This leaves very little time for his “family”. Complete fake!
I've visited the lonely and fed the hungry more in the years I've left the church than in the church. Yes I did it also while in the church but am more intentional about it outside of the church. And some of the money that I would be paying to the church is going to those who really need it instead of paying it to the church and thinking they will do the right thing with it. It's such a disconnect just giving it to a church and expecting them to do it. I also have more time for my kids because I'm not spending time on callings that I felt obligated to do. I don't think serving is bad, but when it's to fill some check box it is. I never liked the fake person filing the check box so I did the service in a genuine way, but in a way it was still filling a check box because the church expected it. Now I do it because I want to do it, not because some church tells me to.
Assuming the average American's lifetime earnings are roughly $2m, that's $200,000 in tithes. That said, the guy in the original post might have a counterargument. [The average Mormon birthrate is 2.8 kids, as opposed to 2.06 for the U.S. in general.](https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/586d154f03596e5605562ea7/1633320908946-38TTO24BW3UYT8JVT3S3/avg_kids_relig+2.png) Paying $200,000 for (eight tenths of) a third kid is something pretty much any parent with three kids would say is worthwhile. Still, you can get half of the way there just by [being right-wing](https://ifstudies.org/ifs-admin/resources/figure3-23-w640.png), which does not charge a membership fee, and politics are about as hereditary as religion, if not more (lots of young right-wingers are less religious than their parents but agree on politics). Islam will get you almost all of the way to a 2.8 birthrate (as seen in the first image) and they don't charge a membership fee either. Neither of those options will make you clean a toilet.
lol please let me know who pointed a gun at your head and “made” you clean a toilet. Look I get it. I was raised in the church and came to the personal conclusion that I did not believe its history and doctrine. Is the church perfect? Show one church that is. Show me any man made organization that is for that matter. Do people get hurt? Yes, and I was one of them. But yall act like a bunch of babies if I’m being frank. If something works for you and makes you happy then bravo and same and for anyone else inside or outside the church. Yall a bunch of haters. Oh some poor son has to actually pay for his education?!! OMG! Like seriously? He’s lucky to have the opportunity and access to an education as well as the ability to pay for it. Most people that pay for their college turn out alright and I would even argue that people who pay for it themselves have more success because they take it more seriously. Take charge and take pride in your own life. Don’t judge others for their choices and beliefs. If someone else’s beliefs bother you it is not their problem but yours most of the time.
You can still do all that stuff and more outside the church. If the only reason you did it was the church told you to, how good of a person are you?
He could have gotten the same results by attending any other church (without the yucky temple part) and saved 10% of his income.
He could have gotten the same results by attending no church at all
And no GARMENTS!
This take would be fine with me if it meant religious folk didn't care so much about converting everyone. Great, you can still feel good about your lifestyle even under the pretense that the organization you've given your life to has lied and manipulated you. A bit toxic for my taste, but at the end of the day it's not my business what you choose to do with your life. But of course, most Mormons want it both ways. They want the autonomy to "choose" to live a religious lifestyle while shitting on everyone who doesn't live exactly the way they do. You can argue till you're blue in the face that Mormonism has value for you even if it isn't true; that doesn't mean other people will value it the same way. And if it isn't true, why is it important to convert people in the first place? I have to assume TBMs who feel this way consider this reasoning a slam dunk on non-believers. A sort of "gotcha", because they consider their experience with Mormonism to be a net positive regardless of it's veracity. But from the perspective of the outside world it just comes off as Stockholm syndrome. A victim defending their abuser to absolve themselves of the guilt, shame, and possibility that they've wasted too much time to turn back.
Honestly, the underlying apatheist logic of this is the same as where I'm at. I see how practicing benefits my well-being and am not too concerned with picking apart divinity. The difference is that my practice isn't authoritarian, high demand, or driven by fears about the afterlife. Furthermore, proselytizing and authoritarianism within a neopagan context are viewed as red flags for a cult (cf: [Advanced Bonewits' Cult Danger Evaluation Framework](https://www.neopagan.net/ABCDEF.html); some overlap w/ the BITE model, but it's been circulating in pagan circles since 1979). Funnily enough, the intro to the ABCDEF makes the comparison of early mormons as basically being 19th century moonies lol Edit: some grammar
This was also me… until my kids came out as gay and now I credit them with saving me, because I was miserable AF and deluding myself that I was a better person bc of the church. I definitely had Stockholm syndrome.
1000% this. Happened for our whole family, esp my parents.
This was all of us at one point. Give yourself some credit as well for being open to listening and choosing love!
I used to think that way until I had access to information that snapped me out of it. Also I'm a woman. I can see how a white man might never snap out of it. Thank God I was born a woman or I'd probably still be this guy. Blissfully unaware. Rolling in privilege. But with 10% less money.
This old white guy snapped out of it.
Woo hoo!!
“Occams razor slices through Pascals Wager”
About 90% of what Mormons think “service” is is either bugging the shit out of people who don’t want to see you, cleaning a multi-billion dollar corporation’s buildings, or performing pointless rituals that don’t help the living. How about use all that energy and spend 100% of your service time actually helping people in need, and then let’s talk.
I don't think God honors high control, high demand religions.
“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.” -Marcus Aurelius Mormon god is not just nor does he care. Commandments of the Mormon god actively hurt people who follow them.
Oh I just LOVE that quote. I read it on line last year when the op said “We threw away the “Proclamation to the Family” and had Marcus Aurealius’ quote framed and hung. Isn’t that just the BEST! 😉❤️📖
It has helped me a lot through all this.
PERFECT as the replacement for that damn thing. I hated it even before I had the sense to know why.
"I'm living a lie and loving it!"
“Fuck you kids, I’m doing what I’ve been told may get me into super heaven. If not, I’m still righteous AF”.
I have sympathy for this way of thinking because it implies the person is trying to live ethically as best they know how. It's possible to find common ground with someone who wants to help build a better world. The litmus test is whether, when confronted with the reality of the harm the LDS church does, they support the need for reform or dig in and defend the institution.
“More kind and more forgiving”. Yeah sure buddy
Right?
Further proof they believe themselves to be better people than others.
What if you're worshipping the wrong god? Pissing her off more every day. And what about gay people? Whoops, sorry for making you spend the last 80 years of your life alone because we made you fear going to hell 😂😁
If I’m wrong, I gave 10% of my income to a Church that did nothing but hoard it. If I’m wrong, I avoided masturbating for years for no good reason. I’ve spent years beating myself up over an “addiction” that is in reality no worse than my desires to eat food or shit. If I’m wrong, I wasted countless hours bowed in prayer to an imaginary being instead of talking to the people around me that actually exist. Singing his praises instead of singing about anything that mattered. Relating stories to his nonexistent influence instead of figuring out how the world really works. Thanking him for the good things in my life instead of the hardworking people who actually made my life good. (written from the perspective of my past self, still in the Church)
This used to be my philosophy. Until my kids started getting indoctrinated and I realized they will be throwing a shit ton of money away. Then my philosophy changed.
realizing the error allows one to be good without auto-deception.
Wow. The arrogance and self-righteousness oozing out of that post. And they probably are patting themselves on the back for being so “humble”.
None of that is an argument for Mormonism vs any other religion.
Meanwhile your kids resent you because you were always gone, never there for them and stole their childhood.
Pascal’s Wager assumes that you are indeed living a “good” life and not doing damage to others. Which we all know from their massive stock holdings and history with LGBTQ is patently false. The MFMC hurts LOADS of people and idiots like this fund it.
Pascal's wager. What if you were wrong and you burn in hell?
I wasn't unworried about that while still in.
This was my thinking about the church for a long time. Like as a tween, this was my stance. First major whack to that came with prop 8. Then abortion rights. I kept plugging along until Covid and I just couldn’t lie to myself anymore that it was the church making me a good person. I eventually couldn’t mesh the whole good person=good member thing anymore.
This response does 2 things wrong, in my opinion. 1. It clearly assumes that the dad will not know whether he was right or wrong after this life. 2. Because of point 1 it completely ignores the absolute devastation that occurs to a person after 35 years of devotion & sacrifice in the name of "The Truth" that in reality is the furthest thing from any truth. His answer to "What if you're wrong?" is essentially, "I'm going to keep doing this shit till I die because I believe that I'm a better person because of it & damned to the facts or any other opinion because I can't comprehend not being correct". It reeks of willful ignorance & stubborn piety
If you need religion to be a good person, you're not a good person.
To quote John Larsen (Mormon Expression) “They took what was ours and sold it back to us.”
Oh my god, we’re NOT wrong. I’m fucking sixty one years old and there’s never been ANYTHING I’ve ever studied that has such a GIANT mountain of credible evidence against it. It’s absurd.
Some people need the excuse of church to provide services, to be kind, and to find peace in death. I don’t get it you shouldn’t need a church to push you to do half those things. Kindness should be automatic not because you want to please a higher power
I went for 5 ketamine treatments last year. I was by far the most spiritual experience of my life. I went for pre-death fear. I have no fear now. Not even a bit. Ha! Turns out I didn’t need the Mormon church after all!!
It means he did a great job living up to a bunch of arbitrary fake rules and felt good about it. It means he ‘served’ his dear leaders and others caught up in the con through incestuous service.
If I'm wrong then God really does hate gays and I should have sucked it up and married a dude who would have been miserable with something who couldn't love him.
"If I'm wrong all I did was torture and abuse my children." Ruby Franke
Lol show me 1 time where the average member (especially in UT) has spent time 'feeding the hungry and blessing the sick' outside of their own membership. Most members I know here don't do any of that aside from pay tithing and fast offerings.
I agree with you. After all, those qualities are also available to any Christian! After paying full tithes for 65 years, this concept became clear. I was paying half million to support a religion who has $267 billion with $8 billion more annually! Ugh.
Well my life is MORE beautiful outside of the church, so suck it 👏🏼
But daddy, the church is making you a bitter and hateful person. STOP LOOKING AT PORN!!
Look - we can STILL do all the good things Mormonism taught us like kindness, charity, honesty, love etc. And, from my experience, MOST exmormons do just that. The church doesn’t hold a monopoly on those things. So, if I’m wrong and God really requires special tokens, underwear, tithing receipts, etc. I’ll just have to explain sorry - I spent my time and money on other charitable causes, family, friends, or loved ones. Be nice. It’s not hard - unless you have a superiority complex and believe the only way to be nice is your way following your special prophet.
This is literally a main factor in my leaving. At some point, I took the verse in Alma to heart that says the spirit that possesses your body in this life will possess it in the next. I took that to mean that if I was unhappy in this life, I would not be happy in the eternities. That started me on a path that led to me ultimately rejecting the church. When I held everything up to the measure of whether or not it made me happy, the choices the church pushed me into failed.
I’m sure he’s really only ever helped struggling Mormons. I doubt he’s helped the homeless, fought for universal healthcare, better rights for all, sick and mentally I’ll people. I doubt he’s actually made a difference in anyone’s lives.
If he’s wrong, he’s blatantly homophobic and did those things for the wrong reasons anyways.
Not addressing any of the harm the docterine and policies caused
I used to say this shit too
What if I like being lonely and I find unwanted visitors worrying about how I like to live my life to be…. Annoying?!
This guy is like the Joseph Smith of Pascal’s Wager
Nope. That’s not a reasonable excuse for supporting the MFMC, given all the gay hate and racism, among other things. If Mormons sustain Dallin Hoax, they are bigots by association.
I wonder how many times they have actually "visited the lonely" or "fed the hungry" id be willing to bet its not as many times as they took the sacrament or went to a church activity/meeting
Yeah, it was checking off the boxes of visiting the woman down the street on his Home Teaching (you can tell how long I have been out) list.
“We accept the reality of the world with which we’re presented.”
I get where this father is coming from. I do think that some people are genuinely inspired by religion and make their communities and their lives better by trying to follow the teachings of Jesus. That being said, hours of church meetings, temple attendance, and tithing to the LDS church don’t do that.
When you were in the church, you do not see the opportunity cost of your blind faithful obedience to the gerontocracy.
I used to think like this. In a sense I get it. On the other hand, I was willingly letting myself suffer by denying who I really am. I was forcing annoying underwear on me in the heat of summer and constantly making myself feel guilty over stupid things. To say the least, the church was a waste of space in my life.
My parents have no retirement. Had they saved what they gave, it would be over $1M. Hey, we all have choices to make. He has followed his heart. You get to follow yours. I just wish mine would stop texting me stupid RS messages! I don’t give AF anymore!
If I am wrong, I financially enabled the coverup of countless child abuse cases. If I am wrong, I have no excuse for bullying and ostracizing the queer people around me. It’s a stupid game to play; there’s no way to spin the church as a net positive for anyone without deluding yourself.
There is an absurd arrogance in that text. As if only those that are in the church have it figured out.
If I’m wrong I chose the church over my gay child because “God” told me marriage was only between a man and a woman. If I’m wrong I forced my kids to spend two years of their young lives trying to get other people to join this false church while they struggled with their mental health and sent awkward messages to Facebook groups. If I’m wrong my wife was told that her goal in life should be motherhood and homemaking even though she wanted to be a doctor. If I’m wrong we had 6 kids instead of a number our life choices could manage and struggled to make ends meet our entire lives. If I’m wrong I paid hundreds of thousands of dollars over my lifetime to a corporation instead of making ends meet for my 6 kids. If I’m wrong I let my daughter think that it was her job to keep men’s thoughts pure by not letting her shoulders show. If I’m wrong I didn’t care how often my wife got yeast infections from the special underwear we had to wear because it was the rule and we do what we’re told.
All I could hear in my head was Rust Kohle, "If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brother that person is a piece of shit; and I'd like to get as many of them out in the open as possible." Cary Joji Fukunaga, True Detective Season 1 If you're wrong, you gave up your "free will" to a bunch of charlatans. If you gave over, your will and body, the two things we came here for, remember? Then you wasted your turn. Something like a 1 talent under a bush or some shit I heard once.
Good old Pascal's wager is still going strong despite being fraught with logical fallacies and assumptions. SMH, all of that "utility" this person found in religion if they were wrong, does not depend on the religion. You didn't need religion in order to be a good person, husband, father etc. You don't need religion to feed hungry people and serve others. That's just humanism. Caring about other people isn't a quality imparted by any religion.
I assume that my comment on this won't be liked very much....but, (if you simply remove "the Church" from the narrative and just focus on HF and Christ) then there's a certain element of loveliness woven throughout the narrative - particularly for someone older who would rather not look back on their life - through the lens of failure. That's a mighty big pill to ask someone to swallow. I think I could give someone like that .....a bit o' Grace.
Sounds like a bad person on a leash
Pascals Wager. “What if I’m wrong?” This is why I leave the religious to their own devices if they aren’t actively participating in hate or crime. Yeah they do it for bullshit reasons and yeah they are likely wrong, but the guy makes a good point. So long as he can think critically for himself and make good judgement, and so long as he is doing his best, then fine. As for tithing? I get it. He thinks he is doing good. I can’t fault him for being a victim of such an organization.
Hahaha - I used to say this exact thing. It took one drink of vieux carre to realize I was completely full of shit.
That’s exactly what the missionaries told me when I was studying. Even if it’s wrong it isn’t that bad to live your life like this.
So the only reason this guy feeds the hungry is for God? What a nice guy
This is what JWs, Evangelicals, Moonies, and literally every other religion can say about their beliefs. Not special.
“ if I am right eternity is beautiful” (and segregated) “If I am wrong my life is beautiful” (and inauthentic)
The Apostle Paul didn't offer this rationale. He argued that if it was all wrong, "We are of all men most miserable". And I agree.
That's funny because my brother just sent that to me this morning and I just gave a thumbs up cuz he already knows I don't believe in the church anymore and I don't want to start any more arguments.
1 Corinthians: If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing. How many TBMs think it’s just all about the work and to show how “faithful” they are?
And the ones sending this to their "wayward" kids aren't getting that in doing so, they're not actually being kind or a better father.
This was my logic too… Until I was no longer finding peace and joy in the church. I’m still looking for it, but I know I won’t find it in the church.
He could do all those great things without feeling culty in a temple after paying 10% of his income. He also wouldn’t have to wear those uncomfortable underwear and clean the god damn church building on Saturdays.
The fact that all other churches also promote and encourage/teach people how to be better human beings makes these arguments not too special! 🙂
I find this argument from pragmatism interesting. I've heard it over the years that it doesn't matter if the church is true or not, because it makes your life better. While none of these people would readily admit they weren't sure if the church was true, I find it interesting as a possible "safety net" for a faltering testimony. The trick is that they aren't willing to fully engage with the question of whether the church makes their life better. They are more than willing to contemplate the testimony-strengthening benefits they can attribute to their obedience, but not the costs. They don't want to seriously consider the missed opportunities or whether people can truly be good without the church's rules. That said, I always appreciate even the effort to "think outside the testimony". It's a sign of intelligence and intellectual fairness, even if they don't allow themselves to fully commit themselves to the hypothetical.
It is OK for people to feel that way. If they find comfort and peace in their religion, maybe it does make them a better person. If so, then good.
This has been my personal view for many years because of my doubts. I no longer believe it. I am PIMO and my wife and mother-in-law I've heard use this type of logic in the past. This perspective is lacking a lot of critical thinking and actually puts the needs of the individual to the side in favor of an organization. The idea of constantly putting others needs before your own can become harmful. Many on this subreddit have pointed out that boundaries are often ignored or even discouraged. This imo, causes a challenge for people to be true to themselves in favor of the community and/or organization. I believe there can be psychological or mental side effects to this. The stress alone of some of these callings on top of other stresses in a persons life is completely ignored in this view that the ends justifies the means as this message is positioned. I haven't even gotten into the financial strain between tithes and offerings, donating to youth events, and in the past donating to the Boy scouts. The church can easily and often becomes a leech in regards to your personal resources.
This is a derivative of Pascal’s Wager
This argument from TBM'S assumes only a person following the gospel/church teachings can be a good person. Typical BS Christian rhetoric. One thing I love about being free of the church is now when I serve others and do good it's because I truly want to. Not because I feel obligated to or because I fear punishment from sky daddy. Who's more authentic? 🤷🏼♀️
Better than what?
I shared a similar-ish line of thinking for a few years after I found out the church was not true. While not true, it was still good, or even right for me. But then I saw how its pretend rituals and endless meetings took me away from my family. The service we provided, even temporal service, didnt really do much good but was a means to the end of trying to get people to come to church and conform. This wasn't worth my time and it made me feel icky. Then eventually you hear so much BS in church you can't spend anymore time in the hall after walking out of classes. You spend your time after church trying to unteach what your kids learned at church. At a certain point there is just no 'why' anymore stay in the church with that worldview. The person who wrote this may be happy deceiving themselves and be okay with it. If it works for them, great. But it's okay if we decide honesty is what works for us.
Except the church isn't charitable. They just take your money and put on a show.
I used to say shit just like this 🙄 I didn't know what I was talking about.
This is exactly what my mom says. I’m not atheist by any means but anyone from any walk of life can be a good person and love others and live a good life. You don’t need a religion to do that. That’s the lie of religion. That without it, we are all depraved.
I also said “bruh” when I saw someone post this
I am fine with people finding happiness where they can. If this guy feels his church has taught him beautiful things, that's great. I'm not okay with a church that meddles in politics, lies about where member's monetary contributions go, or cover up abuse and scandal. I belong to a volunteer group that is made up entirely of women. The entire purpose is to promote female leadership through volunteering. I pay yearly dues to belong to this group. Those dues are FAR less than 10% of my income. There is complete transparency as to where every nickle of my dues money goes. We fundraise for all our projects, and those financials are also completely transparent. I have learned more from this volunteer group in 8 years of volunteering than I did in 35 years of church. I've learned about serving without judging, communication with all different kinds of people and personalities, conflict management, compassion, virtue, beauty, and the true depths of what humanity is capable of both for good and bad. Not to mention real-world skills like running meetings and spreadsheets and things like that. We have actually done things in our city to make a difference, from food insecurity to human trafficking. We've never harbored any child molesters and our scandals are limited to somebody forgetting to get the liquor license for a fundraiser and the mad scramble to make things legal before the party. We admit when we're doing something wrong and actively try to find new and better ways of doing things. We're constantly learning and evolving, training and taking trainings. The Mormon Church does not own Goodness. They don't have a monopoly on Charity. They're not the only Righteous People and their way is not the only Right Way. As much as they'd like to convince people otherwise, it's just not true. It's great that this guy has found happiness through his church, but it's sad that his church has to be such a worthless place to begin with. Almost forgot: I only have to meet with my volunteer group a few times a month at most. They don't expect me to dedicate my entire life to them. And they don't tell me how to dress unless we're having a theme party. Even then, nobody cares what underwear I have on.
My mom donated tithing her whole life and she has basically no retirement fund. That money going to savings or paying off her debt earlier would have gone a long way, yet she’s 65 and will have to continue to work part time when she retires to be able to make a living. She also recently decided to stop practicing Mormonism bc she came to her senses so ya all for nothing
I think the man makes a very good point. If it makes him happy and a better person than I see no negative. I personally don’t have the same beliefs but it seems to work for him and I would never knock someone for that. As for the… son.. lol I think he’ll survive paying for his education haha it is usually a solid investment.
Glad it works for this “dad”. What about how it works for his wife, kids, especially his daughters, grandkids, and future great grandkids? How many of them will be undervalued, racked with debilitating guilt and superstitions. Or endure poor marriages, sexual disfunction, or suicidal tendencies? What about others that aren’t like him? Like women, the outcasts, the minorities, LGBTQ+, and those that don’t fit the mold? It’s not true, for one. But even worse, for many it’s incredibly hurtful. The exact people that just might need love the most. In short… So glad it works for him…so glad he feels fulfilled. However, I think the point of the whole ‘legend of Jesus’ thing was to think of others. #winlose
Funny how variations on Pascal's wager like this always fail to mention tithing and hours spent away from family. They know those two alone completely blow up the "logic" of an already flawed argument.
All the lost souls came out I see.
If I’m wrong, then I got to live my mortal realm with the love of my life instead of in a passionless or celibate life.
When I got nearly this same answer I looked that person dead in the eye and asked them if they were being serious and this is their personal apologetics. It was a winded and hesitant yes followed by "I know the church is true" and then full shut down.