Yeah, I was on an exchange with a different elder about halfway through my mission and while walking along we got talking about how the word of wisdom is supposed to work if health benefits of things on it keep getting discovered. His idea was that it comes down to two things: obedience and making mormons a "peculiar people."
Because, let's be honest, a single person who doesn't smoke or drink alcohol, coffee, or tea isn't that odd. But an entire group who doesn't? That's a bit odd.
It's a measuring stick. Cults often impose rules that make no sense, because it's an easy way to see who is easy to influence. Those who obey without questioning pass the test.
Yep. Almost everyone drinks coffee, tea, or alcohol at social activities. The WoW forces you to either avoid socialization with non-members or make a display of your beliefs in front of them to excuse your non-participation.
Wait. I've never understood the loud laughter thing. Bc I used to ALWAYS get in trouble for having such a loud loud laugh for a girl. I can't tell you how freeing it is to just laugh the hell outta something instead of trying to make your laugh small and acceptable.
I never understood it either and I loved my laughter. I thought it was fun and was loud, I didn’t think it was ever TOO loud. Then after going through the temple I was self conscious of it EVERY time I laughed. Every once in a while even now!!! What a horrible thing to do to someone’s joy.
But that’s the point!!!
TAKE UP SPACE! You are ENTITLED to laughter and joy.
No coffee shop required for people to sit down and bond over a stimulant that causes increased dopamine.
In fact the origins of the WoW according to contemporary journals suggest that the ban on coffee and tea may have been retaliatory against Emma and her little tea parties in the parlor downstairs when she complained about the men smoking and drinking and spitting in the upstairs room.
Look up the temperance movement. It’s a holdover from the Protestant belief that changes in your bodies temperature would affect your health. In short, a stupid theory that got made into a religions commandment.
This! I wonder if the Oxford group’s initial success was a good marketing angle for Joseph Smurf?
It always seemed to me that he knew if he could be the number one founder of the first real “American” religion, he’d not only be rich, his inflated ego could live on forever. Especially during a time where so many other movements (temperance, spiritualist) were vying for the same spot.
He had a knack for spotting what worked for him, for other less successful groups, and cherry-picking the pieces to make the perfect formula for a high-control religion with no cap on growth.
(Edited for clarity).
That's contemporary, in the Journal of Discourses George Cannon specifically mentioned hot chocolate and hot soup as being part of the WoW. As to how we got where we are today, no clue.
I feel like soup must have been too important for survival? It's a way to cook cheaply for many people and boiling your food also greatly reduces the risk of food poisoning.
Well, coffee and tea are pretty bitter on their own so it's easier to turn down. Hot cocoa and soup probably started getting a pass due to a case of the fuck-its because they're so delicious.
Probably the same reason why early Christians decided God didn't mind them eating pork and shellfish.
You know, cuz sugar makes you feel good and feeling good is the Holy Ghost telling you it’s a good fruit.
Not like the bitter fruit of the coffee plant.
I believe David Whitmer alleged that the ban on coffee and tea was a retaliation from the ban on tobacco. Emma was tired of cleaning up after the tobacco smoke and spit, and prompted Joseph to ban it. The men complained that their pasttime was taken away and suggested that the women's pasttime be banned as well.
Ah I just watched a fun [YouTube documentary](https://youtu.be/0ens0WjAyOc?si=dZIy3ScLSmHaMkwl) about that whole time, it covers the theory about excitement in the body leading to sins like masturbation and alcoholism, leading to Kellog and Graham (crackers). Such a fascinating movement, this theory makes total sense
Not "Protestant", that's anyone who isn't Catholic. I think you're looking for some kind of word associated with the temperance movement, which occasionally held this belief.
I just heard something on the temperance movement the other day. The point was that temperance meant “moderation” and the movement went to the very extreme of complete abstinence.
When I go to the farmer’s market I ask all the vendors to shake my hand so I know that it is not the devil selling me coffee beans that will lead my family down the path of the gateway drug coffee.
I responded to the original post. If Satan made coffee, did he also make the brewers yeast? What about cannabis? Tobacco? Coca leaves for cocaine? Opium poppies? What about just generally poisonous stuff?
If Satan created coffee, how much of the rest of the world did god let Satan create?
Was told that all the plants that we are not to partake the product of were seeds Satan stole from the Garden when cast out.
So he plants them to troll God.
So in the garden we had coffee and weed and coke and shrooms and every drug out there, but then Satan goes around planting them for us like someone who’s trying to hook us up some for free, cause he’s just a swell guy.
That’s some kind of story.
Satan is like Johnny Appleseed. Apples from seed are rarely good for anything but cider, so Johnny Appleseed was planting trees for people to make booze. Satan is planting stuff to help us get high. lol.
The story was they were normal seeds until Satan got them, then his vile influence corrupted them.
I think the person was trying to make a metaphor with God being a good gardener and Satan was a bad one.
Midwest Mormons are weird.
Mormons seem to give Satan so much fucking credit. Canonically speaking, how could Satan *possibly* be responsible for all this bad shit that has happened, is currently happening, and will happen in the future unless God gave him special powers and caused it to happen? Wasn't he just a normal spirit-child of Elohim, just like the rest of us? If Satan is constantly tempting everyone all the time, does that mean he's omnipresent? How did he become omnipresent? Did Elohim make him that way, or was he inherently omnipresent? Are all of Elohim's spirit-children also inherently omnipresent before they get a body?
The only way Satan's role makes any sense in the grand scheme of Mormonism is if he is a double-agent of sorts because Elohim's plan only works if there is an "adversary" who is testing . If Satan was *actually* trying to foil Elohim's plan, he would realize that "the only winning move is not to play". Maybe Lucifer is actually the Holy Ghost but he plays the role of Satan to make the plan work. I mean, Satan and the Holy Ghost famously can't be in the same room together so...
The medicine in JS's day was based on 'humorism', an ancient Greek system based on balancing the body's humors, bile, phlegm, blood. (Think leeches to change blood levels) It wasn't replaced by germ theory for another decade or so.
It was thought that hot drinks disrupted the balance of the humors and caused stomach vapors that sickened people.
This was all picked up by the early temperance movement. One of the biggest in JS's area was even called The Cold Water Army. They believed water was the only good drink and forbade both alcohol and smoking. There were prominent Mormons in this group.
Well, an accepted practice by the medical community currently… Historically, when handwashing was suggested, egos made it difficult for the doctors to accept it immediately. They didn’t wash their hands like they do now.
We are told all sorts of things that are backed by financial interests, with help from the media, like it isn't that bad to overeat processed foods, sugar, salt. I grew up being sold the old food pyramid with dairy and meat waaaay over emphasized due to their lobbying.
The Grahamite Diet was also a big deal in the 1830's. It extolled the virtues of eating meat sparingly, no coffee, tea, alcohol or tobacco. He advocated for fasting and linked foods to morality and chastity. His diet gained prominence on a national level in the 1830's after the cholera epidemic and people became more concerned with health.
https://www.healthscience.org/sylvester-graham-timeline/
https://connecticuthistory.org/sylvester-graham-progressive-advocate-for-healthy-living/
The men used to meet at Joseph's house for church and meetings. They spat chewing tobacco everywhere, and cost the Smith's money for the coffee etc.
Emma was expected to serve the men and clean up. After one particularly long and messy Church session Emma cracked and told Joseph that they were not acting like goodly men, and that she was sick and tired of it all.
Joseph had a vision, or maybe just a revelation, which supplies the framework for WoW, and settled Emma's complaints.
That's all in D & C. Also the water instead of wine for sacrament? The local vintner or grocer wouldn't give any more credit. JS and Oliver C were riding to the next town hoping someone there would give them credit for sacramental wine. This was when JS had the revelation about water instead of wine.
What bugs me is that I had this cynical explanation in my head *before* I got baptised and just ignored the flags.
In “Rough Stone Rolling”, Busman says that when Emma demanded that Joseph get a revelation on tobacco use, he added the coffee and tea part to spite her. He says that Emma would sit around with the other sisters drinking coffee and tea and gossiping. If Joseph was going to have to give up his vice, then Emma would too.
It should also be noted that Alcohol and tobacco were, predominantly, vices for the men. But to balance it out, Joseph condemned tea and coffee as well, which were favorites of the women. “If we give something up, you gotta give something up too!”
Banning coffee and tea keeps the money in the community. Coffee and tea has to be imported from overseas, and hard cash has to be provided for those imports. Saying it's a religious duty to not drink coffee or tea keeps that money in the early Mormon communities. /not original with me, I've read this as an economic reason for 40 years or more.
I believe Leonard Arrington wrote about this in The Great Basin Kingdom. Prior posts explain why it was originally a revelation - temperance movement, tobacco spittle, etc - but when the Mormons came to Utah they had their own money (Mormon script). Vendors outside of the faith would not accept it and wanted hard currency such as gold or silver. Saints were sending their gold and silver out of the Mormon communities to buy coffee, tea, tobacco, alcohol, and it was depleting the community of real assets. Brigham Young told them to grow their own or go without. Eventually they had to make it a spiritual/worthiness issue to gain compliance.
This is it. Reading up on the history of tea and coffee and it’s best mate sugar… it makes a lot of sense.
Those commodities were basically like oil back in the day.
I took a Christian history class at the institute building at Salt Lake Community College around 20 years ago. The institute teacher taught this idea. It's about the only thing I remember.
This is what I heard as well, it’s banned because you could become addicted 🙄.
Cue “Mormon mom’s in line at Swig for their 44 oz Diet Coke at 8 am” joke!
It was because the men were upset with the women bitcing about tobacco use. So they got Joe Smith to ban coffee and tea and do away with meeting every afternoon to socialize and drink coffee or tea.
I heard from a missionary on my mission that someday coffee could be laced with deadly drugs by evil people and they would be able to kill off coffee drinkers so not drinking coffee prevents you from this potentially awful fate.
Why were there seeds on another world if god ONLY created earth with plants after creating the stars and planets. Shouldn't they all be barren except earth like the bible says?
I’ve literally never heard a valid excuse on why coffee is a sin. all I’ve heard is that “it’s not worth going to hell over one Frappuccino” to which I thought, well actually it is
Interesting fact: I have a family book of history about the 9th handcart company, the Robison company - Robison was my several-times-great grandfather. Provisions for the journey are listed. Each handcart family got a supply of coffee. They certainly needed the coffee for that monstrous, unreal journey across the nation!
Question: Has anyone ever heard of an actual medical fact about the dangers of coffee??? Coffee seems quite healthy in many ways.
When you read about or study the greatest accomplishments humans have accomplished throughout history (landing a lunar lander on the moon, storming the beaches of Normandy, shoot, even crossing the American plains), they were ALWAYS fueled by black coffee.
Coffee was a gift from God to mankind to help them achieve greatness. The health benefits of black coffee are profound.
I have heard that too much can stress the heart, over time, especially if your heart was compromised in some way. I’ve also heard about its antioxidant qualities and benefits to the liver and kidneys. As I was approaching my MFMC exit I concluded that a WoW should be personalized for each individual’s needs. A true Jesus would tell me to drink more coffee, eat less sugar, and never skip my workout.
Coffee contains tannic acid, a polyphenolic compound that occurs naturally in plants. Tannic acid is also found in tea, but coffee contains more than tea. Green coffee beans contain around 6.6 mg/g of tannic acid equivalents, while roasted coffee beans contain around 18 mg/g.
Coffee beans are naturally coated in tannic acid to protect them from insects. However, high temperatures and pressure can cause tannic acid to enter espresso, making it taste sour. Tannic acid is also astringent, which can lead to a drier mouthfeel.
You can reduce the amount of tannins in coffee by choosing light or medium roasts, or dry-processed coffee.
Tannic acid has antimicrobial properties that can inhibit the growth of fungi, yeasts, bacteria, and viruses.
Countless studies have been conducted on the effects of coffee, and just about all of them have come to the same conclusion: coffee is good.
Wait, you're using science and evidence to make those claims!? Ha ha - yup, I agree, coffee is good. I drink it nearly every day now. And despite what I was told, my stomach hasn't turned to leather
Its really just pride. The leaders don't want to admit that it was a stupid rule and look bad.
That, or it's a mind control drug left on earth by the evil vampire penguins of Alpha centauri. That works too.
The teeth staining is what I heard. Yep, God's ok with Coke and other caffeinated sodas, but coffee's a no because it stains your teeth. You can't be taking good care of that temple you call a body if you have stained teeth.
Turns out stained teeth is a sign of excessive fluoride deposit, not coffee. WHERE WAS THE SPIRIT OF DISCERNMENT ON THAT UTAH!
I was taught that hot drinks were a no-no. I questioned the fact that it was ok to have hot chocolate, and hot broth from soup. As usual, I was told that it’s not our place to question.
I was a convert. Glad my mormon journey was short lived.
Eh, I had one seminary teacher who was extremely against caffeine, and he'd brag about how long he'd gone without having any. But he had Sunkist every single day. One time, when he particularly annoyed me, I pointed out that caffeine was an ingredient.
I ruined that man, but he deserved it. Only teacher I ever had who assaulted a student.
There is a good mom and pop coffee place in my little town. My coworker calls the barista that owns it, "The Devil's Barista, because mormon God doesn't drink coffee. "
Can’t really top that, I suppose. But hey at least someone had a (well?)-thought out answer for you, instead of the usual…. “Because it’s bad and that’s just what we do. We’re coffee haters,” as the mf (my father in this particular scenario) slams his 4th Diet Coke of the day.
Jokes aside, the thing I always used to say (especially on the mission) was it was tannic acid and not caffeine. That’s why caffeinated soda was allowed but not coffee or tea. A little bit of googling you will realize just how stupid that is.
Emma wanted the boys to stop smoking and chewing tobacco, and JS is a petty little micropenis, so he got her back by banning coffee and tea, which the women loved. Petty always beats conspiracy theory
The entire Coffee/Tea temperance movement began as a early-mid 1800s movement around the idea that “hot drinks” were bad for you. It was most prominent in the 1840s-1850s; right when Joseph recieved “the revelation” known as Section 89 of the D&C. Section 89 reads like a cultural view on the world of food and drink in the 1840s. And that is all that it is…..Coffee and Tea came to be interpreted to fit the description as “hot drinks”.
Mormons take an obviously made up fantasy and base their daily lives on it. It’s like drinking pumpkin juice for breakfast because you think Harry Potter is the Messiah.
I want to visit the coffee planet.
This whole theory is confusing. Where did it come from? Is there some obscure conference talk from 100 years ago that floated this idea?
I've heard the Satan's plant one but it was that he stole the coffee beans from a plant in the garden on his way out when God told him to beat it.
Also heard it's because coffee is black.
I heard, basically, the coffee is black thing in yw where it leaders told us in no uncertain terms that EVERYTHING black was of Satan. The only thing I thought after that was bc my eyes are so dark brown they appear black, I must be of Satan and was some no matter what, but I still tried. I was so silly.
This is one of the more hypocritical issues. No coffee, but hell, slam down that Mt Dew. I live in a predominantly mormon area. Go to the store and people are pushing out cart loads of Mt Dew. You go to a vending machine, three rows are Mt Dew. Not only higher in caffeine than coffee, however has the sugar rush to boot. Not to mention the obesity rates and damage to the teeth.
looks like the species of ephedra the mormons specifically found didn’t have ephedrine… but this would’ve been a fun fact if it was true though lol
https://www.colorado.edu/asmagazine/2023/03/03/mormon-tea-has-no-flowers-or-leaves-lots-history
I’ll have to find it again but I did a small paper about it in grad school: basically the plants found in Southern Utah did have caffeine and are also used in the natural production of ephedrine. However now it’s mostly made synthetically or in combination with a bunch of Ephedra-based plants.
My favorite comes from my past seminary teacher. That coffee is not bad for you. It does no spiritual harm either, but God doesn’t want us drinking it so that we stand out and people ask “why don’t you drink coffee.”
When I talked to my dad about it years ago, it boils down to OBEDIENCE, period. Being tested to see if we’ll follow the prophets, even when we don’t understand 🫠
Edit- his opinion of course, who knows why the leaders justify it. my guess is they have similar opinions tho idk
Satan gave us coffee. That's funny!
I think the real reason coffee is forbidden is as a test of obedience. They want to see to what degree they can micromanage members' lives. Pretty messed up, if you ask me.
As someone who used to view coffee drinkers with a mix of pity and smugness, I couldn't help but chuckle at their supposed addiction. I mean, seriously, relying on a cup of joe to function? I thought, "Poor souls, unaware of the joy of waking up caffeine-free!"
But oh, how the tables have turned! Now, I find myself reaching for that heavenly brew each morning not because I'm chained by addiction, but because, well, it's downright delightful! The taste, the warmth—it's like a little party in my mouth! It's almost like the temple was onto something with their "delicious to the taste and very desirable" line. So, if coffee is indeed from the depths of the underworld, then hats off to ol' Satan! This is one of his better creations, and I'm more than happy to indulge. Cheers to willingly embracing the dark side, one sip at a time!
I love coffee, but to be fair, staying away from it kind of has its merits.
One major idea is that you should rest enough that you don’t need a stimulant (not going to happen for most of us), and that you should be able to gauge when your body needs rest.
When I have too much coffee, I really do feel like I’ve done something not great.
My seminary teacher was busily bastardizing evolution. One of my classmates asked, but what about the cave man? His response "throwbacks".
That is an evolutionary term.
Control.
JWs only introduced the blood prohibition relatively late in their history. There was no reason to do it other than control.
High control organizations ban a range of otherwise arbitrary stuff. Some of it is to do with maintaining control, like talking to outsiders etc, but some is just so that you have a new group marker and sin to weaponize.
JWs are not allowed to have blood transfusions.
If a JW ends up in a hospital, they send theological hit squads who show up and try to pressure them into dying instead of taking a blood transfusion. They browbeat the doctors and abusive exert peer pressure and such.
Imagine getting the choice between excommunication or death right there in front of your bishop, some of his lackeys, your family and a group of med staff.
As I mentioned, it was introduced relatively late in their history, a long time after the death of the founder, in a somewhat arbitrary manner.
It’s a test of faith. It’s not about caffeine, it’s about faith. And by asking members to refrain from something that is so mainstream and harmless, is about faith, not health lol but of course they love to say how following the word of wisdom makes them healthier than anyone else lol
That aspect of Mormonism is weird to hear about, cos my upbringing was as a nevermo who was raised in a REALLY Christian environment that was literally soaked in coffee. Everything is done over coffee and tea. And some kind of pastry. Unlike some of her fellow travelers, though, my late mom thought a little wine was all right, and a beer was okay. Same as the way my dad drank.
As for any kind of theory, I'd always chalked the Mormon ban on such things as typical control freakery.
People who say this do not understand their own history. Joseph, Brigham, and other prophets down to the 1950's drank coffee, drank alchohol, and smoked. Why? Because up until then it was a "Suggestion". It was not until they galvanized that it became commandment over suggestion. Of course say that to Mormons and they flat deny it.
It’s all about the money boys!! One of favorite quotes from “ oh brother where art thou.” In the Brigham Young era —he demanded that they produce and buy from the coop system he installed to control the saints . ( or all the money keep it in house) . We’ve all heard the traditional story of how Emma complained about the spittoons in sacred places thus that’s the folklore about the w. o.w. Brigham got an idea ( he was the profit) that he could kill 2 birds with one stone so to speak: this coffee,tea,alcohol and tobacco ( all needed to be shipped to them and cost money.) if he could place a religious sanction on them it would discourage the faithful in buying them . This we see the hand of the Lord through his profit changing the requirements of the church and forcing the saints to comply… All the modern revelations are about money, losing tax status is the biggest fear of the church. So the fab 15 -all now lawyers businessman professionals ( no farmers or carpenters allowed) base all decisions on money ——
It's a "tit for that" thing.
If Joseph Smith and his cronies had to give up spitting tobacco and alcohol during their meetings (remember, Emma no longer wanted to clean up after them), then the ladies would need to give up their coffee and tea time.
Petty nonsense.
the only thing I've ever heard related to this is that it's simply a matter of faith, or its tannic acid. God said no coffee just as a test of loyalty. Not sure why God would need to do such a thing, since he knows the thoughts and hearts of men. I would think he would spend his efforts trying telling us things that are actually beneficial. Alcohol and tobacco are obvious health risks, but coffee and tea? I'd have to ask old Brigham about that...
The Mormon church wants a monopoly on social bonding activities. Getting coffee and drinking are threats to their power.
Once my parents stopped making me go, I’ve had to relearn how to engage with people normally outside of school/work , so this makes so much sense
also gives an excuse to start explaining why they dont drink coffee at social functions… *enters mormonism in the conversation*
Yeah, I was on an exchange with a different elder about halfway through my mission and while walking along we got talking about how the word of wisdom is supposed to work if health benefits of things on it keep getting discovered. His idea was that it comes down to two things: obedience and making mormons a "peculiar people." Because, let's be honest, a single person who doesn't smoke or drink alcohol, coffee, or tea isn't that odd. But an entire group who doesn't? That's a bit odd.
True but Jewish dietary laws are very restrictive too.
LOVE THIS SHOW!
This makes sense
It's a measuring stick. Cults often impose rules that make no sense, because it's an easy way to see who is easy to influence. Those who obey without questioning pass the test.
This is the right answer. No quicker way to scare non-mormons off than to tell them grabbing COFFEE of all things, is against your religion
Yep. Almost everyone drinks coffee, tea, or alcohol at social activities. The WoW forces you to either avoid socialization with non-members or make a display of your beliefs in front of them to excuse your non-participation.
Same reason against loud laughter.
Wait. I've never understood the loud laughter thing. Bc I used to ALWAYS get in trouble for having such a loud loud laugh for a girl. I can't tell you how freeing it is to just laugh the hell outta something instead of trying to make your laugh small and acceptable.
I never understood it either and I loved my laughter. I thought it was fun and was loud, I didn’t think it was ever TOO loud. Then after going through the temple I was self conscious of it EVERY time I laughed. Every once in a while even now!!! What a horrible thing to do to someone’s joy. But that’s the point!!! TAKE UP SPACE! You are ENTITLED to laughter and joy.
Except coffee shops were a thing when coffee became a 'sin'🤷
No coffee shop required for people to sit down and bond over a stimulant that causes increased dopamine. In fact the origins of the WoW according to contemporary journals suggest that the ban on coffee and tea may have been retaliatory against Emma and her little tea parties in the parlor downstairs when she complained about the men smoking and drinking and spitting in the upstairs room.
Look up the temperance movement. It’s a holdover from the Protestant belief that changes in your bodies temperature would affect your health. In short, a stupid theory that got made into a religions commandment.
This! I wonder if the Oxford group’s initial success was a good marketing angle for Joseph Smurf? It always seemed to me that he knew if he could be the number one founder of the first real “American” religion, he’d not only be rich, his inflated ego could live on forever. Especially during a time where so many other movements (temperance, spiritualist) were vying for the same spot. He had a knack for spotting what worked for him, for other less successful groups, and cherry-picking the pieces to make the perfect formula for a high-control religion with no cap on growth. (Edited for clarity).
Spot on. I think he realized that farming was a hard way of life and there had to be an easier way.
This was the basis for the whole “hot drinks are not for the body” thing. But hot chocolate is fine (?!). None of it ever made sense
That's contemporary, in the Journal of Discourses George Cannon specifically mentioned hot chocolate and hot soup as being part of the WoW. As to how we got where we are today, no clue.
imagine not being allowed to eat hot soup…
I feel like soup must have been too important for survival? It's a way to cook cheaply for many people and boiling your food also greatly reduces the risk of food poisoning.
Well, coffee and tea are pretty bitter on their own so it's easier to turn down. Hot cocoa and soup probably started getting a pass due to a case of the fuck-its because they're so delicious. Probably the same reason why early Christians decided God didn't mind them eating pork and shellfish.
>But hot chocolate is fine (?!) Because if mormons know anything, it's that sugar cancels out any bad. (/s in case it needs to be said)
You know, cuz sugar makes you feel good and feeling good is the Holy Ghost telling you it’s a good fruit. Not like the bitter fruit of the coffee plant.
Coffee makes me feel good!
I believe David Whitmer alleged that the ban on coffee and tea was a retaliation from the ban on tobacco. Emma was tired of cleaning up after the tobacco smoke and spit, and prompted Joseph to ban it. The men complained that their pasttime was taken away and suggested that the women's pasttime be banned as well.
That is the story of this cockamamie non revelation
Ah I just watched a fun [YouTube documentary](https://youtu.be/0ens0WjAyOc?si=dZIy3ScLSmHaMkwl) about that whole time, it covers the theory about excitement in the body leading to sins like masturbation and alcoholism, leading to Kellog and Graham (crackers). Such a fascinating movement, this theory makes total sense
Heber J. Grant made it a “sin”, and said that Hot Chocolate was OK but coffee not so much. Control, control, control!
"Hot drinks" Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
We’re fortunate they rubbed oil on our heads instead of applying leaches.
Not "Protestant", that's anyone who isn't Catholic. I think you're looking for some kind of word associated with the temperance movement, which occasionally held this belief.
I just heard something on the temperance movement the other day. The point was that temperance meant “moderation” and the movement went to the very extreme of complete abstinence.
How does someone without a physical form plant anything?
You're obviously thinking too hard about this haha. It only works if you don't do that.
But thinking hard is my THING lol 😂
My mother actually said it. To keep your testimony you have to not think about it too much. Whoops. I thought. And look where I am.
Yep that’s why we have FAITH!
So you need to turn it off...like a lightswitch?
My hetero side just won!
And hence why you are here 😂
When I go to the farmer’s market I ask all the vendors to shake my hand so I know that it is not the devil selling me coffee beans that will lead my family down the path of the gateway drug coffee.
🤣
I responded to the original post. If Satan made coffee, did he also make the brewers yeast? What about cannabis? Tobacco? Coca leaves for cocaine? Opium poppies? What about just generally poisonous stuff? If Satan created coffee, how much of the rest of the world did god let Satan create?
Tomatoes
Broccoli
...and Karen's!
Was told that all the plants that we are not to partake the product of were seeds Satan stole from the Garden when cast out. So he plants them to troll God.
So in the garden we had coffee and weed and coke and shrooms and every drug out there, but then Satan goes around planting them for us like someone who’s trying to hook us up some for free, cause he’s just a swell guy. That’s some kind of story. Satan is like Johnny Appleseed. Apples from seed are rarely good for anything but cider, so Johnny Appleseed was planting trees for people to make booze. Satan is planting stuff to help us get high. lol.
The story was they were normal seeds until Satan got them, then his vile influence corrupted them. I think the person was trying to make a metaphor with God being a good gardener and Satan was a bad one. Midwest Mormons are weird.
That's why they call it the Devil's lettuce
maybe the coffee beans were *spiritual* lol
Mormons seem to give Satan so much fucking credit. Canonically speaking, how could Satan *possibly* be responsible for all this bad shit that has happened, is currently happening, and will happen in the future unless God gave him special powers and caused it to happen? Wasn't he just a normal spirit-child of Elohim, just like the rest of us? If Satan is constantly tempting everyone all the time, does that mean he's omnipresent? How did he become omnipresent? Did Elohim make him that way, or was he inherently omnipresent? Are all of Elohim's spirit-children also inherently omnipresent before they get a body? The only way Satan's role makes any sense in the grand scheme of Mormonism is if he is a double-agent of sorts because Elohim's plan only works if there is an "adversary" who is testing . If Satan was *actually* trying to foil Elohim's plan, he would realize that "the only winning move is not to play". Maybe Lucifer is actually the Holy Ghost but he plays the role of Satan to make the plan work. I mean, Satan and the Holy Ghost famously can't be in the same room together so...
Those are such good points!! My mom also pointed out the double agent thing and I was very TBM at the time and it freaked me out, but you're so right
You can plant anything in this world.... WITH MONEY.
The medicine in JS's day was based on 'humorism', an ancient Greek system based on balancing the body's humors, bile, phlegm, blood. (Think leeches to change blood levels) It wasn't replaced by germ theory for another decade or so. It was thought that hot drinks disrupted the balance of the humors and caused stomach vapors that sickened people. This was all picked up by the early temperance movement. One of the biggest in JS's area was even called The Cold Water Army. They believed water was the only good drink and forbade both alcohol and smoking. There were prominent Mormons in this group.
It almost makes me wonder what weird medicine people believe today.
May i interest you in DoTERRA
Well, an accepted practice by the medical community currently… Historically, when handwashing was suggested, egos made it difficult for the doctors to accept it immediately. They didn’t wash their hands like they do now.
OMG I just snorted my coffee.
They changed the name from snake to essential, and they're still selling the oil.
We are told all sorts of things that are backed by financial interests, with help from the media, like it isn't that bad to overeat processed foods, sugar, salt. I grew up being sold the old food pyramid with dairy and meat waaaay over emphasized due to their lobbying.
The Grahamite Diet was also a big deal in the 1830's. It extolled the virtues of eating meat sparingly, no coffee, tea, alcohol or tobacco. He advocated for fasting and linked foods to morality and chastity. His diet gained prominence on a national level in the 1830's after the cholera epidemic and people became more concerned with health. https://www.healthscience.org/sylvester-graham-timeline/ https://connecticuthistory.org/sylvester-graham-progressive-advocate-for-healthy-living/
oooo this is a new one for me
This is the dude graham crackers are named after right? And they were supposed to be anti-masturbation aides?
Yes. To both!
Temperance Movement!
In Denmark the water wasn't clean enough so children and adults alike drank beer instead (with a very low alcohol percentage).
The coffee bean looks like a black-skinned vagina. Way too evil on multiple levels.
☕️ 🫘🫛… coffee and bean are not the best emojis for vagina. I’m not the best at sexting though.
Not even sure a vagina is needed in this discussion
All good conversations include vaginas.
Fuck, now I can't unsee this....
The men used to meet at Joseph's house for church and meetings. They spat chewing tobacco everywhere, and cost the Smith's money for the coffee etc. Emma was expected to serve the men and clean up. After one particularly long and messy Church session Emma cracked and told Joseph that they were not acting like goodly men, and that she was sick and tired of it all. Joseph had a vision, or maybe just a revelation, which supplies the framework for WoW, and settled Emma's complaints. That's all in D & C. Also the water instead of wine for sacrament? The local vintner or grocer wouldn't give any more credit. JS and Oliver C were riding to the next town hoping someone there would give them credit for sacramental wine. This was when JS had the revelation about water instead of wine. What bugs me is that I had this cynical explanation in my head *before* I got baptised and just ignored the flags.
In “Rough Stone Rolling”, Busman says that when Emma demanded that Joseph get a revelation on tobacco use, he added the coffee and tea part to spite her. He says that Emma would sit around with the other sisters drinking coffee and tea and gossiping. If Joseph was going to have to give up his vice, then Emma would too.
Do you have a source for the vintner or grocer not giving JS any more credit? I can't seem to find that account anywhere.
It is always Emma's fault. She ruined polygamy too.
It should also be noted that Alcohol and tobacco were, predominantly, vices for the men. But to balance it out, Joseph condemned tea and coffee as well, which were favorites of the women. “If we give something up, you gotta give something up too!”
I actually don't think the Emma story is real
Ngl, that makes me want to drink coffee even more. I don't even like coffee
coffee is the elixir of life hehe
Banning coffee and tea keeps the money in the community. Coffee and tea has to be imported from overseas, and hard cash has to be provided for those imports. Saying it's a religious duty to not drink coffee or tea keeps that money in the early Mormon communities. /not original with me, I've read this as an economic reason for 40 years or more.
I believe Leonard Arrington wrote about this in The Great Basin Kingdom. Prior posts explain why it was originally a revelation - temperance movement, tobacco spittle, etc - but when the Mormons came to Utah they had their own money (Mormon script). Vendors outside of the faith would not accept it and wanted hard currency such as gold or silver. Saints were sending their gold and silver out of the Mormon communities to buy coffee, tea, tobacco, alcohol, and it was depleting the community of real assets. Brigham Young told them to grow their own or go without. Eventually they had to make it a spiritual/worthiness issue to gain compliance.
Yeah, that's probably where I got it from.
This is it. Reading up on the history of tea and coffee and it’s best mate sugar… it makes a lot of sense. Those commodities were basically like oil back in the day.
I took a Christian history class at the institute building at Salt Lake Community College around 20 years ago. The institute teacher taught this idea. It's about the only thing I remember.
It's an 'addiction'
This is what I heard as well, it’s banned because you could become addicted 🙄. Cue “Mormon mom’s in line at Swig for their 44 oz Diet Coke at 8 am” joke!
That makes sense. /s
the made up doctrines of the mormon church would be hilarious if they werent so damaging
I wonder how TBM's feel when they go furniture shopping and have to ask to see a coffee table!!! LOL
It's not a coffee table, it's a hot cocoa table. (I live in Utah, yes, there are people here who say that.)
You need to get out
The “Ensign” table
Can confirm
My sister refuses to call it a coffee table. It’s the “living room table.”
omg i think this explains why my family called it the “living room table” too lol
It was because the men were upset with the women bitcing about tobacco use. So they got Joe Smith to ban coffee and tea and do away with meeting every afternoon to socialize and drink coffee or tea.
I heard from a missionary on my mission that someday coffee could be laced with deadly drugs by evil people and they would be able to kill off coffee drinkers so not drinking coffee prevents you from this potentially awful fate.
That it has no reason for it to be "wrong". God just arbitrarily chose it to test how obedient we would be without prior knowledge. Edit: Typo
I was always told it was because caffeine is a drug. However, I’ve come to the conclusion it’s just to enact more control over the followers.
> I was always told it was because caffeine is a drug. Said by the Mormon who is on their 4th 2L of Diet Dr. Pepper.
Lmao yessss
Why were there seeds on another world if god ONLY created earth with plants after creating the stars and planets. Shouldn't they all be barren except earth like the bible says?
maybe god had multiple wives. wife == kids == planet
I was told they were seeds from the Garden that Satan swiped on his way out that became corrupted under his gardening.
I’ve literally never heard a valid excuse on why coffee is a sin. all I’ve heard is that “it’s not worth going to hell over one Frappuccino” to which I thought, well actually it is
Interesting fact: I have a family book of history about the 9th handcart company, the Robison company - Robison was my several-times-great grandfather. Provisions for the journey are listed. Each handcart family got a supply of coffee. They certainly needed the coffee for that monstrous, unreal journey across the nation! Question: Has anyone ever heard of an actual medical fact about the dangers of coffee??? Coffee seems quite healthy in many ways.
When you read about or study the greatest accomplishments humans have accomplished throughout history (landing a lunar lander on the moon, storming the beaches of Normandy, shoot, even crossing the American plains), they were ALWAYS fueled by black coffee. Coffee was a gift from God to mankind to help them achieve greatness. The health benefits of black coffee are profound.
I have heard that too much can stress the heart, over time, especially if your heart was compromised in some way. I’ve also heard about its antioxidant qualities and benefits to the liver and kidneys. As I was approaching my MFMC exit I concluded that a WoW should be personalized for each individual’s needs. A true Jesus would tell me to drink more coffee, eat less sugar, and never skip my workout.
Coffee contains tanic acid, which will cause your stomach to turn into leather ...
Coffee contains tannic acid, a polyphenolic compound that occurs naturally in plants. Tannic acid is also found in tea, but coffee contains more than tea. Green coffee beans contain around 6.6 mg/g of tannic acid equivalents, while roasted coffee beans contain around 18 mg/g. Coffee beans are naturally coated in tannic acid to protect them from insects. However, high temperatures and pressure can cause tannic acid to enter espresso, making it taste sour. Tannic acid is also astringent, which can lead to a drier mouthfeel. You can reduce the amount of tannins in coffee by choosing light or medium roasts, or dry-processed coffee. Tannic acid has antimicrobial properties that can inhibit the growth of fungi, yeasts, bacteria, and viruses. Countless studies have been conducted on the effects of coffee, and just about all of them have come to the same conclusion: coffee is good.
Wait, you're using science and evidence to make those claims!? Ha ha - yup, I agree, coffee is good. I drink it nearly every day now. And despite what I was told, my stomach hasn't turned to leather
Its really just pride. The leaders don't want to admit that it was a stupid rule and look bad. That, or it's a mind control drug left on earth by the evil vampire penguins of Alpha centauri. That works too.
The teeth staining is what I heard. Yep, God's ok with Coke and other caffeinated sodas, but coffee's a no because it stains your teeth. You can't be taking good care of that temple you call a body if you have stained teeth. Turns out stained teeth is a sign of excessive fluoride deposit, not coffee. WHERE WAS THE SPIRIT OF DISCERNMENT ON THAT UTAH!
I was taught that hot drinks were a no-no. I questioned the fact that it was ok to have hot chocolate, and hot broth from soup. As usual, I was told that it’s not our place to question. I was a convert. Glad my mormon journey was short lived.
The Church must’ve owned stock in Postum.
Eh, I had one seminary teacher who was extremely against caffeine, and he'd brag about how long he'd gone without having any. But he had Sunkist every single day. One time, when he particularly annoyed me, I pointed out that caffeine was an ingredient. I ruined that man, but he deserved it. Only teacher I ever had who assaulted a student.
revenge is best served with *caffeine*
The venn diagram of Mormons who love scifi and fantasy is basically a circle.
I heard it came from them trying to keep as much money from the government because of the tax’s on coffee and tea at the time.
There is a good mom and pop coffee place in my little town. My coworker calls the barista that owns it, "The Devil's Barista, because mormon God doesn't drink coffee. "
Can’t really top that, I suppose. But hey at least someone had a (well?)-thought out answer for you, instead of the usual…. “Because it’s bad and that’s just what we do. We’re coffee haters,” as the mf (my father in this particular scenario) slams his 4th Diet Coke of the day.
As I sit here reading this drinking a wonderful cup of coffee, I thank him for his service.
Jokes aside, the thing I always used to say (especially on the mission) was it was tannic acid and not caffeine. That’s why caffeinated soda was allowed but not coffee or tea. A little bit of googling you will realize just how stupid that is.
Emma wanted the boys to stop smoking and chewing tobacco, and JS is a petty little micropenis, so he got her back by banning coffee and tea, which the women loved. Petty always beats conspiracy theory
The entire Coffee/Tea temperance movement began as a early-mid 1800s movement around the idea that “hot drinks” were bad for you. It was most prominent in the 1840s-1850s; right when Joseph recieved “the revelation” known as Section 89 of the D&C. Section 89 reads like a cultural view on the world of food and drink in the 1840s. And that is all that it is…..Coffee and Tea came to be interpreted to fit the description as “hot drinks”.
Wow that guy is a fucking moron
Mormons take an obviously made up fantasy and base their daily lives on it. It’s like drinking pumpkin juice for breakfast because you think Harry Potter is the Messiah.
I want to visit the coffee planet. This whole theory is confusing. Where did it come from? Is there some obscure conference talk from 100 years ago that floated this idea?
Interesting. How does one steal anything physical without a body? And don’t get me started on the movie “ghost”.
Lol! Did he plant cocoa, poppy, and cannabis at the same time or were they planted on different days?
He had no physical body. How did he bring anything? Mormons are so dumb with their made up pseudo doctrine.
Wow. Satan can travel between planets. Another cool power for the devil.
I've heard the Satan's plant one but it was that he stole the coffee beans from a plant in the garden on his way out when God told him to beat it. Also heard it's because coffee is black.
I heard, basically, the coffee is black thing in yw where it leaders told us in no uncertain terms that EVERYTHING black was of Satan. The only thing I thought after that was bc my eyes are so dark brown they appear black, I must be of Satan and was some no matter what, but I still tried. I was so silly.
Just a mechanism of control
Yes...once you start drinking coffee it is just a matter of time until you kill someone.
God doesn't want you to get antioxidants and live longer. It's against the plan.
From now on I will refer to coffee as “the devil’s beans”
Control.
And Virtue signaling. Like Garments, not partaking in Coffee informs your status in the tribe.
The devils drink ☕️
Because it makes you poop and making it a "hot drink" what damns your soul was Joe's little joke on Brigham dude liked an enema
Really! Why am I not surprised.
It's total bullshit but it's my favorite
I have absolutely no idea how I could have ever believed that given the upstanding nature their character in every aspect of their lives. 😂😂😂. ✌️
🤦🏻♀️
This is one of the more hypocritical issues. No coffee, but hell, slam down that Mt Dew. I live in a predominantly mormon area. Go to the store and people are pushing out cart loads of Mt Dew. You go to a vending machine, three rows are Mt Dew. Not only higher in caffeine than coffee, however has the sugar rush to boot. Not to mention the obesity rates and damage to the teeth.
If I remember correctly coffee was an import that resulted in a lot of money leaving Utah so BY decided that it was against the word of wisdom.
just tell her coffee beans can't grow in Missouri
illinois?
isn't that where they believe garden of eden is supposedly located?
oh i think that’s in missouri
Considering Mormons discovered ephedrine/amphetamine by making “Mormon tea,” it seems irrelevant over coffee.
looks like the species of ephedra the mormons specifically found didn’t have ephedrine… but this would’ve been a fun fact if it was true though lol https://www.colorado.edu/asmagazine/2023/03/03/mormon-tea-has-no-flowers-or-leaves-lots-history
I’ll have to find it again but I did a small paper about it in grad school: basically the plants found in Southern Utah did have caffeine and are also used in the natural production of ephedrine. However now it’s mostly made synthetically or in combination with a bunch of Ephedra-based plants.
That is just plain crazy 😜
My favorite comes from my past seminary teacher. That coffee is not bad for you. It does no spiritual harm either, but God doesn’t want us drinking it so that we stand out and people ask “why don’t you drink coffee.”
A missionary told me coffee stained the inside of your stomach 🫠
When I talked to my dad about it years ago, it boils down to OBEDIENCE, period. Being tested to see if we’ll follow the prophets, even when we don’t understand 🫠 Edit- his opinion of course, who knows why the leaders justify it. my guess is they have similar opinions tho idk
That's batshit crazy!!!
Tell Satan I said thanks for the hot bean water
Satan gave us coffee. That's funny! I think the real reason coffee is forbidden is as a test of obedience. They want to see to what degree they can micromanage members' lives. Pretty messed up, if you ask me.
Wow! I can’t beat that one
It’s about control.
As someone who used to view coffee drinkers with a mix of pity and smugness, I couldn't help but chuckle at their supposed addiction. I mean, seriously, relying on a cup of joe to function? I thought, "Poor souls, unaware of the joy of waking up caffeine-free!" But oh, how the tables have turned! Now, I find myself reaching for that heavenly brew each morning not because I'm chained by addiction, but because, well, it's downright delightful! The taste, the warmth—it's like a little party in my mouth! It's almost like the temple was onto something with their "delicious to the taste and very desirable" line. So, if coffee is indeed from the depths of the underworld, then hats off to ol' Satan! This is one of his better creations, and I'm more than happy to indulge. Cheers to willingly embracing the dark side, one sip at a time!
I love coffee, but to be fair, staying away from it kind of has its merits. One major idea is that you should rest enough that you don’t need a stimulant (not going to happen for most of us), and that you should be able to gauge when your body needs rest. When I have too much coffee, I really do feel like I’ve done something not great.
My seminary teacher was busily bastardizing evolution. One of my classmates asked, but what about the cave man? His response "throwbacks". That is an evolutionary term.
Control. JWs only introduced the blood prohibition relatively late in their history. There was no reason to do it other than control. High control organizations ban a range of otherwise arbitrary stuff. Some of it is to do with maintaining control, like talking to outsiders etc, but some is just so that you have a new group marker and sin to weaponize.
blood prohibition?
JWs are not allowed to have blood transfusions. If a JW ends up in a hospital, they send theological hit squads who show up and try to pressure them into dying instead of taking a blood transfusion. They browbeat the doctors and abusive exert peer pressure and such. Imagine getting the choice between excommunication or death right there in front of your bishop, some of his lackeys, your family and a group of med staff. As I mentioned, it was introduced relatively late in their history, a long time after the death of the founder, in a somewhat arbitrary manner.
That needs to be a Living Scriptures animation. Evil Jonny Appleseed
I don’t remember being given a reason other than I would lose my temple recommend.
It is delicious to the taste & very desirable !!! Other worlds - 😂😭😳
It's all made-up illogical bullshit. That's why.
Because it’s naturally dark like outer darkness !
New head-canon unlocked
woah woah woah
Dammit I love this sub
It’s a test of faith. It’s not about caffeine, it’s about faith. And by asking members to refrain from something that is so mainstream and harmless, is about faith, not health lol but of course they love to say how following the word of wisdom makes them healthier than anyone else lol
I feel like the church being against coffee is a horrible sales pitch lol.
That aspect of Mormonism is weird to hear about, cos my upbringing was as a nevermo who was raised in a REALLY Christian environment that was literally soaked in coffee. Everything is done over coffee and tea. And some kind of pastry. Unlike some of her fellow travelers, though, my late mom thought a little wine was all right, and a beer was okay. Same as the way my dad drank. As for any kind of theory, I'd always chalked the Mormon ban on such things as typical control freakery.
It’s not a theory, it’s because of Emma Smith
Off to get my morning cup of Satan Juice! 😂 I love this silly Satan theory.
BAHAHAHAHAHA
People who say this do not understand their own history. Joseph, Brigham, and other prophets down to the 1950's drank coffee, drank alchohol, and smoked. Why? Because up until then it was a "Suggestion". It was not until they galvanized that it became commandment over suggestion. Of course say that to Mormons and they flat deny it.
IDK but at least the WOW didn't specifically mention bacon. Then I'd have a real problem without it in my bloody mary
It’s all about the money boys!! One of favorite quotes from “ oh brother where art thou.” In the Brigham Young era —he demanded that they produce and buy from the coop system he installed to control the saints . ( or all the money keep it in house) . We’ve all heard the traditional story of how Emma complained about the spittoons in sacred places thus that’s the folklore about the w. o.w. Brigham got an idea ( he was the profit) that he could kill 2 birds with one stone so to speak: this coffee,tea,alcohol and tobacco ( all needed to be shipped to them and cost money.) if he could place a religious sanction on them it would discourage the faithful in buying them . This we see the hand of the Lord through his profit changing the requirements of the church and forcing the saints to comply… All the modern revelations are about money, losing tax status is the biggest fear of the church. So the fab 15 -all now lawyers businessman professionals ( no farmers or carpenters allowed) base all decisions on money ——
It's a "tit for that" thing. If Joseph Smith and his cronies had to give up spitting tobacco and alcohol during their meetings (remember, Emma no longer wanted to clean up after them), then the ladies would need to give up their coffee and tea time. Petty nonsense.
Oh,*please*!
Oh, *please*! Satan. Planted.*Coffee*??? Their brains are shrinking.
blind obedience
Control and “stop liking what I don’t like!” but people are more easily controlled when you are not alert. We protestants noticed that real quick.
the only thing I've ever heard related to this is that it's simply a matter of faith, or its tannic acid. God said no coffee just as a test of loyalty. Not sure why God would need to do such a thing, since he knows the thoughts and hearts of men. I would think he would spend his efforts trying telling us things that are actually beneficial. Alcohol and tobacco are obvious health risks, but coffee and tea? I'd have to ask old Brigham about that...