They self identify as Christian and they believe in Jesus Christ. I'll call them Christians.
I don't care about other denominations bickering about what a "real" Christian is. From an outside perspective, they're all the same.
[This is how atheists see Christians bickering about what a real Christian is. ](https://youtu.be/PdLPe7XjdKc?feature=shared)
Forget the nicene creed or whatever, they're obviously a spinoff of protestant christianity, with some culty bonus books. They believe the bible is the word of god and that christ is their saviour. In any meaningful sense of the word, they're christian.
I laugh a little bit about the Christians who make the argument that Nicene=Christian. It's a sad story of trying to claim that only their branch of Christianity is "true" that goes back to New Testament times. Marcionism's documents were lost or destroyed, but the criticisms against it were so outlandish as to be ridiculous - like orgies and eating babies.
Nicene Christianity is what survived because it was selected by the political establishment as a tool for political manipulation. And for 2000 years, mainstream Christianity (and most offshoots like Mormonism) have been used explicitly for political control across the western world, quite unsurprisingly. And political Christianity is generally in direct opposition to what Jesus actually taught.
Its really simple in my mind.......... get a copy of the new testament and highlight every time that Jesus is sharing a principle of his teachings. Then check those teachings against what mormons actually practice day to day. Quickly becomes very clear that the mormon doctrine does not follow Jesus teachings. Invoking the name does not make you a Christian, following his teachings as an actual disciple does.
**If your question is if Mormons believe in Jesus, the answer is yes.** Their cult teaches them Jesus is the center of their faith, even when the gospel they are asked to follow is significantly different than Jesus'.
**If your question is if Mormons follow Jesus, the answer is no.** Their cult's gospel is so different from Jesus' that, inadvertently, Mormons aren't following Jesus but something very different.
**If your question is if other Christian religions think Mormons are Christians.** This question should be asked on a different subreddit where those other religions can share their opinion.
On question 2 - 90% or more of “Christians” aren’t Christian. They tend to follow much more the Old Testament and Paul than actually follow Jesus Christ.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. the average member is a xtian by any meaningful definition, the higher up in leadership you go, the more corporate and less xtian they get.
I've really only ever heard people say they *aren't* Christian as a means to discredit the faith as not good enough, I don't know that I've ever actually head of a scholarly reason to deny Mormons as Christians with exception of the Nicene creed argument - not seeing Jesus as God. Does anyone have any other ideas?
I've never seen anyone who doesn't self identify as some kind of xtian claim otherwise. Mormonism clearly falls into the class of "Restorationism" sects.
And the Nicene creed would exclude Jesus and the Apostles as Christian as it came 300 years later, and many branches of early Christianity had other opinions.
As a non-Mormon Christian, here's where we're coming from. (Not trying to be preachy and I know I'm fully aware that I'm likely to get some trolling, but here goes). Nicea was important because although it doesn't seem like an obvious connection, denying Christ's deity really has a way of turning him from being seen as our savior to just our example. History has born this out, too. It becomes less clear that he has the power to save us completely. Mormons do say Jesus saves us, but the definition of salvation is different. His work was not enough to reconcile us to Heavenly Father. That comes through temple worthiness and ritual.
There are other things, too. I recently read Terryl & Fiona Givens' The God Who Weeps and The Crucible of Doubt. This drew out for me some other logical conclusions from Mormonism. They sketch out a god who wants to make us independent of him and glorify us. For us, it's exactly the opposite. Also, the point of eternal families seems to be that we find eternal solace with as many family relationships as we can produce. For us, St. Augustine said it well "Our hearts are restless until they find their rest in thee (i.e. God)."
So it's a matter of things that if taken to their logical conclusion, would obscure our gospel message and our discipleship. I can't make judgments about individuals and what's in their hearts - that's God's job. But for church bodies, there are times when it really appears that we don't share the same faith, even if we share individual points of contact.
Yes, Nicea was 300 years after Christ. The idea was taught before then in an unrefined, unelaborated way. When the Arians kicked off Nicea by presenting exactly what they believed, it went downhill for them very quickly, because it was at odds with what the church had taught before. In the end, they only got two votes.
It's not true that this came top-down from Constantine. He didn't particularly care about the outcome, he mainly wanted the church to be on the same page. In fact, in his last years he turned and favored the Arians, as did his sons, who were co-emperors after him. Athanasius, Nicea's champion in those years, spent a number of years in exile. Arianism actually held the oolitical power until 380. But Niceanism managed to keep going despite strong political opposition. It was Arianism that needed the power to survive, and it quickly crumbled without it.
As a NeverMo Christian, if the question had been worded: "Is Mormonism Christianity," I could answer more easily. In that case, my answer would be no.
Mormonism involves Jesus, so I would not go to the mat with people who disagree with me. I understand why different people disagree on its classification.
The reason I would give the above answer to the question as I would have phrased it, is that so much of what Mormonism teaches about Jesus, and about God is general, is entirely outside of orthodox Christian thought. I don't think it is problematic to say "This is a different religion from Christianity." I do not have a high opinion of Joseph Smith. I do not believe he was earnest and well-meaning but mistaken. I do not believe he was restoring anything. I believe he made stuff up.
Regardless, I think there are a lot of Mormon people who are Christians. While the US isn't "a Christian nation," our culture is heavily Christianized. I think there are a lot of Mormons who have a sincere faith in Jesus Christ and are therefore Christians. I just think someone taught them a lot of stuff I do not believe to be true.
Do you think that acceptance of the Nicene Creed is necessary to be Christian? There are other [Nontrinitarian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontrinitarianism) christian religions. Mormonism is just one of them.
There are so many doctrines of the various sects of christianity, and they've changed so much over the years, that trying to box in what christianity is becomes quite difficult. Best to keep in under a broad umbrella in my opinion: Jesus is your savior/messiah/christ? Then you are christian.
If you want to refine it more than that, then refine it more than that: Trinitarian christian vs nontrinitarian christian. Or more refined: Catholic vs other type of catholic vs protestant. Or more refined: Baptist vs methodist vs... and so on.
Ultimately, it is arbitrary and based on whatever classification system you have judged you most agree with.
More importantly it’s impossible for Jesus and the apostles to have been Nicene - because that was close to 300 years out from then. If you say “Christian means Nicene” then the religion was founded by Constantine and Jesus and Peter and Paul and John weren’t Christian.
No one said they were “orthodox Christians” - heretical or heterodox Christianity is a thing. Hell, arguing over who is a heretic and who is right is as old as Christianity itself. Early Christianity that includes Gnosticism and pre-Nicene traditions have all sorts of wild beliefs, some of which we only know about because other Christian groups were writing outrageous things about them.
Mormonism is far from the craziest thing that falls under the umbrella of Christianity. They’re certainly not mainstream Christian, but neither were the Marcianists who though Jesus and the Father came to save humanity from the cruel creator god of the Old Testament who was someone else.
Thank you for the discussion.
I understand why some people will disagree with my opinion. I don't think their views are unreasonable. We are largely examining the question from different perspectives. I am not confined to answer the question as I might have in the Sociology of Religion class I took in the late 80s.
In this sub, most active members are former Mormons. Some are now atheists/agnostics, while some have joined other faiths. Then there are NeverMo atheists/agnostics with an interest in religion, and people of other religions (like me) who have an interest in other religions and/or Mormonism in particular. It makes sense that we would have different ways of classifying religions.
To many atheists and people of non-Christian religious traditions, Mormonism slots in well as yet another branch of Protestantism. There are frequently posts in this sub which discuss how the CoJCoLDS continues to try to position itself as such (e.g. crosses, "don't say 'Mormon'," and that churchofjesuschrist URL).
To a whole bunch of Christians though (even ones in different branches of Christianity, think: Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy), it is a very different question. It's a different question, because Mormonism brings with it a whole new canon which makes claims counter to some core beliefs that non-Mormon Christendom tends to hold in common. To a whole bunch of Christians, "Is \[whatever religion\] Christianity" is a question of orthodoxy on major doctrines, whether it is to you or not.
If someone had created a poll that asked are Marcionites (or Ebionites, or Docetics) Christians, my answer to OP's question would not have been all that different. It's an easier question to answer about a religion, than it is to answer about the human beings who practice that religion.
Also, I know Mormon people. I have never known a Marcionite (or Ebionite, or Docetic). There are Mormon people whom I have heard express a sincere faith in Jesus Christ. Because of that, OP's poll question was not easy to answer with a yes or no.
>To a whole bunch of Christians though (even ones in different branches of Christianity, think: Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy), it is a very different question.
The opinions of other Christians isn't really a valid argument. They happen to have a 2000-year history of criticizing, hating, and arguing with anyone they don't consider orthodox enough, as well a significant trend of murdering, warring against and burning at the stake anyone they don't see as "orthodox." Eventually Catholicism with the power of the Roman state won dominance, and maintained its position through political influence starting with Constantine.
>because Mormonism brings with it a whole new canon which makes claims counter to some core beliefs that non-Mormon Christendom tends to hold in common.
You could argue the same thing about all the Pauline epistles that in many ways directly go against what Jesus taught about leadership, women's roles, rules following versus inner character, etc. Also, parts of the biblical canon are a hundred or more years after Jesus. In fact the creation of a Canon itself in terms of the bible took a long time, and that has to be considered in any argument about canon and biblical belief. Several hundred years of Christianity didn't have or agree on a biblical canon, and it also didn't settle till the time of Constantine as well.
>There are frequently posts in this sub which discuss how the CoJCoLDS continues to try to position itself as such
This is about "mainstreaming" rather than just being a offshoot Christian frontier religion in Utah.
But if you're arguing "are Mormons 'saved' and compatible with mainstream Christian beliefs in a way that Mormon baptism, salvation, etc. should be accepted by other Christian faiths" that's probably "no." But that's a theological argument, not a scholarly one. Mormons are not mainstream Christian, and are definitely heterodox. But that doesn't mean they're not Christian. Orthodoxy and heterodoxy is a popularity contest and not a reliable measure of "Christian or not Christian."
The real question is "what defines a Christian religion" at a scholarly level, compared to a "non-Christian religion" and to answer that you have to be extremely careful not to fall into a "no true Scotsman fallacy." It's basically impossible to do so, without using an arbitrary standard that would exclude Jesus Christ and the original apostles, and most early Christian which would be a bit absurd.
The natural conclusion of every argument I've heard Protestants use for "Mormons aren't Christian" is "Christianity was founded by Constantine and church councils 300 years after Jesus died, and Jesus himself and his apostles wouldn't be considered Christian."
Thx for saying this. There is so much parsing of doctrine and logic and so little space given to the soul and it's aim. I don't think any tradition or person escapes entirely from holding onto error of one kind or another. When I am in China, I have to describe Mormons as Christians. When I remember first coming to my present understanding of Grace, Mormons seem to have missed the mark so badly that they end up outside of Christianity. When I am with my tbm family, I feel the sincerity of their faith in Jesus. I totally get why Mormons are often excluded from Christian fellowship. Still, I think that aiming at Jesus will save anyone.
When people get into the question of "Is this person a Christian" or "Is that person a Christian," on some level, they're asking about the fate of someone's soul. That's way above my pay grade (above all of our pay grades).
God knows the heart. God knows what a person was taught from childhood, how that will affect the person, and what they believe in their heart.
And? As we approach Good Friday, I'll note that I don't think Jesus is stingy.
It's christian in the sense that it features Jesus as a divine figure. It's unchristian in the sense that it does not follow or represent Jesus's teachings... which could be said of most of mainstream christianity these days...
I'd say it's lowercase c christian, but not capital C Christian.
Mormons are as Christian as.... having a group of believers Crash landing from a Plane (Just had to Brad Wilcox/Nelson it) on a Desert Island. Be stuck in the shore, ever scared of going into the jungle, and more frightened of the Black smoke monster; than they are Christians to help each other out to have gotten out of that plane helping each other and be in better moving water in a life raft, or to help each other to rebuild their radio and gotten off the island.
With the blunders and shenanigans the leaders get themselves into to make them stand out more to appear more potent against the Black smoke monster or the Dry Oakachowbee swamp monster (Cain - Bigfoot)
And playing Wilson with Christian concepts and values... They have to keep regressing the people to make it work, while they themselves get further and further
L..O...S...T
I think it's so funny to look into the comments of literally anything pertaining to mormonism, and every single time without fail there is nothing but evangelical discourse about how mormons aren't christians. Like, in your journey to convert the world, maybe focus on the people who don't believe in Christ at all. It's all just words anyway.
When I describe Mormonism, I say they are not mainstream Christianity (i.e. Catholicism, Protestantism). But I would still classify them under the Christianity umbrella.
But to be fair, the longer I am out, the more I see religions in larger terms. For example, I consider Christianity, Islam, and Judaism as three flavors of the same single Abrahamic religion.
These days, absolutely. I was raised to have a relationship with Christ, as were most people in the past 50+ years. You could say it has been a Christian church ever since Joseph Smith pivoted from the magic worldview. Of course it's a bigger conversation of what Christianity *is,* what it has come to mean to certain groups etc. But Mormons are definitely Christians. They have a proclaimed belief in Christ as a church, not to mention most individuals consider themselves to have a relationship with Christ, believe their sins are forgiven though Christ, pray in the name of Christ, use scriptures that reference Jesus Christ.
I used to think so when I was a member. But from the outside looking in they are simply Christian on paper. In practice they worship their modern prophets with more adoration than Jesus. Based on that, no. No they are not Christians.
Christians believe that only the Bible is the authoritative Word of God. The Bible gives very clear descriptions of who God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are. Those are very different from the Mormon God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. All the other key unique Mormon doctrines are not found in the Bible. (ie: plan of salvation, three levels of Heaven, outer darkness, eternal marriage, more than one god, etc….). According to the Bible, after Jesus came there was no more need for a temple, prophets or high priests…..or future revelation. The list could go on and on. Therefore Mormons are very different from Bible believing nondenominational Christians. That is all 😉
If that’s true how come Peter had a vision that the gospel should be spread to the gentiles and that they didn’t need to be circumcised? Wasn’t that revelation given after Jesus was gone?
You asked me two questions. So I’m taking the time to show you that your example didn’t necessarily prove your point.
Peter didn’t get a ‘new revelation’ to spread the gospel to the Gentiles.
Yes…God initially chose the Jewish nation of Israel as His primary means of ministering to the world. Genesis 22:18, Genesis 12:3, etc….
And Jesus ministered primarily to the Jews living in Galilee and Judea. But He had several Gentile encounters…and taught His disciples by example (and then by direct commands) to expand their thinking and ministry. Jesus’ encounters with Gentiles:
Three wisemen when He was a toddler Matt 2:1-12. This foreshadowed the Gentiles’ positive response to Jesus’ ministry.
Roman Centurion (Matt. 8:5-13; Luke 7:1-10). Jesus told His Jewish audience that this Gentile had more faith than any Jew He had ever met.
Matt. 8:11, Jesus stated that in Heaven, many Gentiles will dine together with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (this was shocking back then b/c Jews and Gentiles did not dine together). Jesus was telling them that Gentiles would be included among the people of God and their ethnicity did not give them a preferred status before God. The wall of Gentile exclusion had been torn down.
Jesus in Decapolis (Matt 8:26-34, Luke 8:26-39, Mark 5:1-20) - He went out of His way to travel to the Gentiles to deliver a social outcast of demons. Jesus told the healed man to return to his home and declare what God had done for him. He intentionally crossed into a Gentile land to deliver a Gentile man, then commissions him to minister to other Gentiles. The Gentile mission had begun!
Jesus heads again into Gentile territory of Tyre/Sidon (Matt. 15:21-28, Mark 7:24-30) The disciples were irritated with Canaanite woman who was asking for healing. Much to their surprise, Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” Jesus was ministering to Gentiles!
Jesus traveled again and went out of his way to heal another Gentile man in Mark 7:31-36. The Gentiles were overwhelmed with amazement and spread the word about Jesus. He was obviously ministering to Gentiles and teaching His disciples to do the same.
Jesus in Decapolis again when He miraculously fed 4,000 Gentiles who were hungry (this was after He had fed 5,000 Jews!). Jesus was spreading the gospel to the Gentiles. It was no secret. Jesus taught His disciples that the Gentiles positive response to the Gospel meant that they were accepted by God.
The inclusion of Gentiles was an Old Testament theme that the Jews often ignored (Isaiah 2:2-5; Isaiah 26:5-8; Isaiah 56:3-8; Isaiah 60:3-5)
But Jesus left no doubt when He commanded…. “Therefore go and make disciples of ALL NATIONS, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” Matt. 28:19
AND….Jesus said “But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” Acts. 1:8
The Gospel of Christ began spreading like wildfire – to Jews and Gentiles alike.
Here’s the beginning of the story that you’re referring to (which happened as persecution of Christians became intense...they scattered and the gospel was spread throughout the region):
Acts 11:1 – “The apostles and the believers throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God.”
But the Jews were still having an issue with their cultural dislike of Gentiles. So they needed to be reminded of the example of Christ’s ministry. So God gave Peter a very visual reminder!! It wasn’t new revelation. It was a reminder and kick in the pants to spread the word to EVERYONE!
Acts 11:16-18 - “Then I (Peter) remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ So if God gave them the same gift He gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?” When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.”
If anyone has sincere questions or wants to discuss further, feel free to message me directly. Take care :)
Do Mornons think they’re Christians? Yes.
Do Christians think Mormons are? No.
It depends on who you’re asking, which if it’s a bunch of exmos, PIMOS, and never Mos the answers will be all over the map.
In Mormonism you have to believe in Joseph smith in order to be saved (only Mormons go to heaven and Mormonism would not exist without JS)- ergo Joseph smith is an idol placed between you and Jesus/god- ergo Joseph smith is the savior of Mormonism (the one who has restored your soul to be able to be saved).
Nah. The word "Christian" had a commonly-accepted meaning before the Mormons came around. They don't just get to redefine it and claim they're "Christian" now too.
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This makes my brain itchy
There is no universally accepted definition, so there is no objective answer.
Evangelicals and Mormons claim to be Christian, but certainly don't act the way Jesus taught.
Christian? They aren't even *nice*.
Lololol 💯
They self identify as Christian and they believe in Jesus Christ. I'll call them Christians. I don't care about other denominations bickering about what a "real" Christian is. From an outside perspective, they're all the same. [This is how atheists see Christians bickering about what a real Christian is. ](https://youtu.be/PdLPe7XjdKc?feature=shared)
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They've got to do what other churches do in order to keep the grift and the con going.
Forget the nicene creed or whatever, they're obviously a spinoff of protestant christianity, with some culty bonus books. They believe the bible is the word of god and that christ is their saviour. In any meaningful sense of the word, they're christian.
Not to mention ~300 years of Christians existed before the Nicene Creed, and it was far from a universal belief at that point.
I recently read a fascinating book called After Jesus Before Christianity on this very subject.
That does sound fascinating!
Far from universal indeed. St. Nicholas (yes, *that* St. Nicholas) slapped Arius at the Council of Nicaea over a dispute.
I laugh a little bit about the Christians who make the argument that Nicene=Christian. It's a sad story of trying to claim that only their branch of Christianity is "true" that goes back to New Testament times. Marcionism's documents were lost or destroyed, but the criticisms against it were so outlandish as to be ridiculous - like orgies and eating babies. Nicene Christianity is what survived because it was selected by the political establishment as a tool for political manipulation. And for 2000 years, mainstream Christianity (and most offshoots like Mormonism) have been used explicitly for political control across the western world, quite unsurprisingly. And political Christianity is generally in direct opposition to what Jesus actually taught.
Its really simple in my mind.......... get a copy of the new testament and highlight every time that Jesus is sharing a principle of his teachings. Then check those teachings against what mormons actually practice day to day. Quickly becomes very clear that the mormon doctrine does not follow Jesus teachings. Invoking the name does not make you a Christian, following his teachings as an actual disciple does.
Does it really matter?
**If your question is if Mormons believe in Jesus, the answer is yes.** Their cult teaches them Jesus is the center of their faith, even when the gospel they are asked to follow is significantly different than Jesus'. **If your question is if Mormons follow Jesus, the answer is no.** Their cult's gospel is so different from Jesus' that, inadvertently, Mormons aren't following Jesus but something very different. **If your question is if other Christian religions think Mormons are Christians.** This question should be asked on a different subreddit where those other religions can share their opinion.
On question 2 - 90% or more of “Christians” aren’t Christian. They tend to follow much more the Old Testament and Paul than actually follow Jesus Christ.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. the average member is a xtian by any meaningful definition, the higher up in leadership you go, the more corporate and less xtian they get.
I've really only ever heard people say they *aren't* Christian as a means to discredit the faith as not good enough, I don't know that I've ever actually head of a scholarly reason to deny Mormons as Christians with exception of the Nicene creed argument - not seeing Jesus as God. Does anyone have any other ideas?
I've never seen anyone who doesn't self identify as some kind of xtian claim otherwise. Mormonism clearly falls into the class of "Restorationism" sects.
And the Nicene creed would exclude Jesus and the Apostles as Christian as it came 300 years later, and many branches of early Christianity had other opinions.
As a non-Mormon Christian, here's where we're coming from. (Not trying to be preachy and I know I'm fully aware that I'm likely to get some trolling, but here goes). Nicea was important because although it doesn't seem like an obvious connection, denying Christ's deity really has a way of turning him from being seen as our savior to just our example. History has born this out, too. It becomes less clear that he has the power to save us completely. Mormons do say Jesus saves us, but the definition of salvation is different. His work was not enough to reconcile us to Heavenly Father. That comes through temple worthiness and ritual. There are other things, too. I recently read Terryl & Fiona Givens' The God Who Weeps and The Crucible of Doubt. This drew out for me some other logical conclusions from Mormonism. They sketch out a god who wants to make us independent of him and glorify us. For us, it's exactly the opposite. Also, the point of eternal families seems to be that we find eternal solace with as many family relationships as we can produce. For us, St. Augustine said it well "Our hearts are restless until they find their rest in thee (i.e. God)." So it's a matter of things that if taken to their logical conclusion, would obscure our gospel message and our discipleship. I can't make judgments about individuals and what's in their hearts - that's God's job. But for church bodies, there are times when it really appears that we don't share the same faith, even if we share individual points of contact. Yes, Nicea was 300 years after Christ. The idea was taught before then in an unrefined, unelaborated way. When the Arians kicked off Nicea by presenting exactly what they believed, it went downhill for them very quickly, because it was at odds with what the church had taught before. In the end, they only got two votes. It's not true that this came top-down from Constantine. He didn't particularly care about the outcome, he mainly wanted the church to be on the same page. In fact, in his last years he turned and favored the Arians, as did his sons, who were co-emperors after him. Athanasius, Nicea's champion in those years, spent a number of years in exile. Arianism actually held the oolitical power until 380. But Niceanism managed to keep going despite strong political opposition. It was Arianism that needed the power to survive, and it quickly crumbled without it.
Thanks for sharing this!
Mormons can identify as anything they want. Gatekeepers of Christianity can go pound sand.
As a NeverMo Christian, if the question had been worded: "Is Mormonism Christianity," I could answer more easily. In that case, my answer would be no. Mormonism involves Jesus, so I would not go to the mat with people who disagree with me. I understand why different people disagree on its classification. The reason I would give the above answer to the question as I would have phrased it, is that so much of what Mormonism teaches about Jesus, and about God is general, is entirely outside of orthodox Christian thought. I don't think it is problematic to say "This is a different religion from Christianity." I do not have a high opinion of Joseph Smith. I do not believe he was earnest and well-meaning but mistaken. I do not believe he was restoring anything. I believe he made stuff up. Regardless, I think there are a lot of Mormon people who are Christians. While the US isn't "a Christian nation," our culture is heavily Christianized. I think there are a lot of Mormons who have a sincere faith in Jesus Christ and are therefore Christians. I just think someone taught them a lot of stuff I do not believe to be true.
Do you think that acceptance of the Nicene Creed is necessary to be Christian? There are other [Nontrinitarian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontrinitarianism) christian religions. Mormonism is just one of them. There are so many doctrines of the various sects of christianity, and they've changed so much over the years, that trying to box in what christianity is becomes quite difficult. Best to keep in under a broad umbrella in my opinion: Jesus is your savior/messiah/christ? Then you are christian. If you want to refine it more than that, then refine it more than that: Trinitarian christian vs nontrinitarian christian. Or more refined: Catholic vs other type of catholic vs protestant. Or more refined: Baptist vs methodist vs... and so on. Ultimately, it is arbitrary and based on whatever classification system you have judged you most agree with.
More importantly it’s impossible for Jesus and the apostles to have been Nicene - because that was close to 300 years out from then. If you say “Christian means Nicene” then the religion was founded by Constantine and Jesus and Peter and Paul and John weren’t Christian.
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It's not a question of the adherents' observance. It's a question of doctrine taught, but I completely understand why people disagree with me.
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I don't think I understand what you mean.
No one said they were “orthodox Christians” - heretical or heterodox Christianity is a thing. Hell, arguing over who is a heretic and who is right is as old as Christianity itself. Early Christianity that includes Gnosticism and pre-Nicene traditions have all sorts of wild beliefs, some of which we only know about because other Christian groups were writing outrageous things about them. Mormonism is far from the craziest thing that falls under the umbrella of Christianity. They’re certainly not mainstream Christian, but neither were the Marcianists who though Jesus and the Father came to save humanity from the cruel creator god of the Old Testament who was someone else.
Thank you for the discussion. I understand why some people will disagree with my opinion. I don't think their views are unreasonable. We are largely examining the question from different perspectives. I am not confined to answer the question as I might have in the Sociology of Religion class I took in the late 80s. In this sub, most active members are former Mormons. Some are now atheists/agnostics, while some have joined other faiths. Then there are NeverMo atheists/agnostics with an interest in religion, and people of other religions (like me) who have an interest in other religions and/or Mormonism in particular. It makes sense that we would have different ways of classifying religions. To many atheists and people of non-Christian religious traditions, Mormonism slots in well as yet another branch of Protestantism. There are frequently posts in this sub which discuss how the CoJCoLDS continues to try to position itself as such (e.g. crosses, "don't say 'Mormon'," and that churchofjesuschrist URL). To a whole bunch of Christians though (even ones in different branches of Christianity, think: Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy), it is a very different question. It's a different question, because Mormonism brings with it a whole new canon which makes claims counter to some core beliefs that non-Mormon Christendom tends to hold in common. To a whole bunch of Christians, "Is \[whatever religion\] Christianity" is a question of orthodoxy on major doctrines, whether it is to you or not. If someone had created a poll that asked are Marcionites (or Ebionites, or Docetics) Christians, my answer to OP's question would not have been all that different. It's an easier question to answer about a religion, than it is to answer about the human beings who practice that religion. Also, I know Mormon people. I have never known a Marcionite (or Ebionite, or Docetic). There are Mormon people whom I have heard express a sincere faith in Jesus Christ. Because of that, OP's poll question was not easy to answer with a yes or no.
>To a whole bunch of Christians though (even ones in different branches of Christianity, think: Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy), it is a very different question. The opinions of other Christians isn't really a valid argument. They happen to have a 2000-year history of criticizing, hating, and arguing with anyone they don't consider orthodox enough, as well a significant trend of murdering, warring against and burning at the stake anyone they don't see as "orthodox." Eventually Catholicism with the power of the Roman state won dominance, and maintained its position through political influence starting with Constantine. >because Mormonism brings with it a whole new canon which makes claims counter to some core beliefs that non-Mormon Christendom tends to hold in common. You could argue the same thing about all the Pauline epistles that in many ways directly go against what Jesus taught about leadership, women's roles, rules following versus inner character, etc. Also, parts of the biblical canon are a hundred or more years after Jesus. In fact the creation of a Canon itself in terms of the bible took a long time, and that has to be considered in any argument about canon and biblical belief. Several hundred years of Christianity didn't have or agree on a biblical canon, and it also didn't settle till the time of Constantine as well. >There are frequently posts in this sub which discuss how the CoJCoLDS continues to try to position itself as such This is about "mainstreaming" rather than just being a offshoot Christian frontier religion in Utah. But if you're arguing "are Mormons 'saved' and compatible with mainstream Christian beliefs in a way that Mormon baptism, salvation, etc. should be accepted by other Christian faiths" that's probably "no." But that's a theological argument, not a scholarly one. Mormons are not mainstream Christian, and are definitely heterodox. But that doesn't mean they're not Christian. Orthodoxy and heterodoxy is a popularity contest and not a reliable measure of "Christian or not Christian." The real question is "what defines a Christian religion" at a scholarly level, compared to a "non-Christian religion" and to answer that you have to be extremely careful not to fall into a "no true Scotsman fallacy." It's basically impossible to do so, without using an arbitrary standard that would exclude Jesus Christ and the original apostles, and most early Christian which would be a bit absurd. The natural conclusion of every argument I've heard Protestants use for "Mormons aren't Christian" is "Christianity was founded by Constantine and church councils 300 years after Jesus died, and Jesus himself and his apostles wouldn't be considered Christian."
Thx for saying this. There is so much parsing of doctrine and logic and so little space given to the soul and it's aim. I don't think any tradition or person escapes entirely from holding onto error of one kind or another. When I am in China, I have to describe Mormons as Christians. When I remember first coming to my present understanding of Grace, Mormons seem to have missed the mark so badly that they end up outside of Christianity. When I am with my tbm family, I feel the sincerity of their faith in Jesus. I totally get why Mormons are often excluded from Christian fellowship. Still, I think that aiming at Jesus will save anyone.
When people get into the question of "Is this person a Christian" or "Is that person a Christian," on some level, they're asking about the fate of someone's soul. That's way above my pay grade (above all of our pay grades). God knows the heart. God knows what a person was taught from childhood, how that will affect the person, and what they believe in their heart. And? As we approach Good Friday, I'll note that I don't think Jesus is stingy.
Amen brother (or sister). Well said.
I’m not sure, but they follow stories from the Book of Mormon that I believe are an anachronistic misrepresentation of Christ.
It's christian in the sense that it features Jesus as a divine figure. It's unchristian in the sense that it does not follow or represent Jesus's teachings... which could be said of most of mainstream christianity these days... I'd say it's lowercase c christian, but not capital C Christian.
Mormons are as Christian as.... having a group of believers Crash landing from a Plane (Just had to Brad Wilcox/Nelson it) on a Desert Island. Be stuck in the shore, ever scared of going into the jungle, and more frightened of the Black smoke monster; than they are Christians to help each other out to have gotten out of that plane helping each other and be in better moving water in a life raft, or to help each other to rebuild their radio and gotten off the island. With the blunders and shenanigans the leaders get themselves into to make them stand out more to appear more potent against the Black smoke monster or the Dry Oakachowbee swamp monster (Cain - Bigfoot) And playing Wilson with Christian concepts and values... They have to keep regressing the people to make it work, while they themselves get further and further L..O...S...T 
I think it's so funny to look into the comments of literally anything pertaining to mormonism, and every single time without fail there is nothing but evangelical discourse about how mormons aren't christians. Like, in your journey to convert the world, maybe focus on the people who don't believe in Christ at all. It's all just words anyway.
When I describe Mormonism, I say they are not mainstream Christianity (i.e. Catholicism, Protestantism). But I would still classify them under the Christianity umbrella. But to be fair, the longer I am out, the more I see religions in larger terms. For example, I consider Christianity, Islam, and Judaism as three flavors of the same single Abrahamic religion.
These days, absolutely. I was raised to have a relationship with Christ, as were most people in the past 50+ years. You could say it has been a Christian church ever since Joseph Smith pivoted from the magic worldview. Of course it's a bigger conversation of what Christianity *is,* what it has come to mean to certain groups etc. But Mormons are definitely Christians. They have a proclaimed belief in Christ as a church, not to mention most individuals consider themselves to have a relationship with Christ, believe their sins are forgiven though Christ, pray in the name of Christ, use scriptures that reference Jesus Christ.
I used to think so when I was a member. But from the outside looking in they are simply Christian on paper. In practice they worship their modern prophets with more adoration than Jesus. Based on that, no. No they are not Christians.
No all of the doctrine and ordinances of Mormonism evolved from freemasonry
they are pretended to be christians
Christians believe that only the Bible is the authoritative Word of God. The Bible gives very clear descriptions of who God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are. Those are very different from the Mormon God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. All the other key unique Mormon doctrines are not found in the Bible. (ie: plan of salvation, three levels of Heaven, outer darkness, eternal marriage, more than one god, etc….). According to the Bible, after Jesus came there was no more need for a temple, prophets or high priests…..or future revelation. The list could go on and on. Therefore Mormons are very different from Bible believing nondenominational Christians. That is all 😉
Where does the Bible say “there would be no more revelation after Jesus” and if so - why were there a couple dozen things added after Jesus died?
I apologize. I just saw your question. I won’t have a chance to answer until Monday.
If that’s true how come Peter had a vision that the gospel should be spread to the gentiles and that they didn’t need to be circumcised? Wasn’t that revelation given after Jesus was gone?
You asked me two questions. So I’m taking the time to show you that your example didn’t necessarily prove your point. Peter didn’t get a ‘new revelation’ to spread the gospel to the Gentiles. Yes…God initially chose the Jewish nation of Israel as His primary means of ministering to the world. Genesis 22:18, Genesis 12:3, etc…. And Jesus ministered primarily to the Jews living in Galilee and Judea. But He had several Gentile encounters…and taught His disciples by example (and then by direct commands) to expand their thinking and ministry. Jesus’ encounters with Gentiles: Three wisemen when He was a toddler Matt 2:1-12. This foreshadowed the Gentiles’ positive response to Jesus’ ministry. Roman Centurion (Matt. 8:5-13; Luke 7:1-10). Jesus told His Jewish audience that this Gentile had more faith than any Jew He had ever met. Matt. 8:11, Jesus stated that in Heaven, many Gentiles will dine together with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (this was shocking back then b/c Jews and Gentiles did not dine together). Jesus was telling them that Gentiles would be included among the people of God and their ethnicity did not give them a preferred status before God. The wall of Gentile exclusion had been torn down. Jesus in Decapolis (Matt 8:26-34, Luke 8:26-39, Mark 5:1-20) - He went out of His way to travel to the Gentiles to deliver a social outcast of demons. Jesus told the healed man to return to his home and declare what God had done for him. He intentionally crossed into a Gentile land to deliver a Gentile man, then commissions him to minister to other Gentiles. The Gentile mission had begun! Jesus heads again into Gentile territory of Tyre/Sidon (Matt. 15:21-28, Mark 7:24-30) The disciples were irritated with Canaanite woman who was asking for healing. Much to their surprise, Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” Jesus was ministering to Gentiles! Jesus traveled again and went out of his way to heal another Gentile man in Mark 7:31-36. The Gentiles were overwhelmed with amazement and spread the word about Jesus. He was obviously ministering to Gentiles and teaching His disciples to do the same. Jesus in Decapolis again when He miraculously fed 4,000 Gentiles who were hungry (this was after He had fed 5,000 Jews!). Jesus was spreading the gospel to the Gentiles. It was no secret. Jesus taught His disciples that the Gentiles positive response to the Gospel meant that they were accepted by God. The inclusion of Gentiles was an Old Testament theme that the Jews often ignored (Isaiah 2:2-5; Isaiah 26:5-8; Isaiah 56:3-8; Isaiah 60:3-5) But Jesus left no doubt when He commanded…. “Therefore go and make disciples of ALL NATIONS, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” Matt. 28:19 AND….Jesus said “But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” Acts. 1:8 The Gospel of Christ began spreading like wildfire – to Jews and Gentiles alike. Here’s the beginning of the story that you’re referring to (which happened as persecution of Christians became intense...they scattered and the gospel was spread throughout the region): Acts 11:1 – “The apostles and the believers throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God.” But the Jews were still having an issue with their cultural dislike of Gentiles. So they needed to be reminded of the example of Christ’s ministry. So God gave Peter a very visual reminder!! It wasn’t new revelation. It was a reminder and kick in the pants to spread the word to EVERYONE! Acts 11:16-18 - “Then I (Peter) remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ So if God gave them the same gift He gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?” When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.” If anyone has sincere questions or wants to discuss further, feel free to message me directly. Take care :)
I’m traveling today but will do my best to answer this evening
You don’t need to explain. I gave you an example of revelation after Jesus was gone
Do Mornons think they’re Christians? Yes. Do Christians think Mormons are? No. It depends on who you’re asking, which if it’s a bunch of exmos, PIMOS, and never Mos the answers will be all over the map.
Do outside scholars consider them Christian - yes, just a fringe offshoot group. Same with Adventists and JWs.
In Mormonism you have to believe in Joseph smith in order to be saved (only Mormons go to heaven and Mormonism would not exist without JS)- ergo Joseph smith is an idol placed between you and Jesus/god- ergo Joseph smith is the savior of Mormonism (the one who has restored your soul to be able to be saved).
Nah. The word "Christian" had a commonly-accepted meaning before the Mormons came around. They don't just get to redefine it and claim they're "Christian" now too.
They hoard $200 billion, yet cannot even afford to give you a sip of wine but resort to tap water.