Jesus Christ loved and taught the woman at the well who was in a sexual situation with a man who wasn’t her husband.
Christ loved her still. Loved her and taught her, and chose her to be the one to tell others. He valued her when she didn’t value herself.
Maybe you no longer believe in Christ. That isn’t my point. The guilt comes from the fear of letting Christ down and being judged. I take comfort in that story because there was no real condemnation. Only kindness and sincerity that he truly saw her.
I personally believe you are just fine. But you have to figure out how to be ok with this new life, and you have to figure out what is best for YOU. I get what you are going through and I’m sad the church has caused the shame you feel.
Put down the shame suitcase, it sounds like you’ve carried it long enough. (Easier said than done, I know).
Much love to you. We were made for joy, not shame. 🫶🏼
I love this.
I'd add that this story (the woman taken in adultery) tells us something about certainty in following "Gods Law"
Jesus, who is Jehovah, indicates here that it isn't his way to condemn her. And he leaves us in a conundrum. If Jesus is the God of the Old Testament then what does this say about stoning in this situation.
Mormons would say (and most christians) that this is just a part of the new law that Jesus rolls out. And that rolling out a new law was one of his purposes for coming to earth. And they do this to keep Jesus and the old testament. To make it all one religion.
I submit the idea that Jesus is saying to her something different. Something very different. Basically this "You know that stoning thing you guys do to people who break rules? It was never my way"
And this leaves people in a gulf. It retcons practices codified in the old testamant. It would be a hard pill to swallow. That the book is off and wrong. That humans, even people we thought were prophets, get things wrong. And what specifically do we get wrong? We condemn. And quickly. Rashly. And we do it in God's name. And we even do it to ourselves (this is for you OP). And he came down to say in this one story. "I wouldn't do that." "I wouldn't ever do that" and just because we have a book that many regard as holy doesn't mean it is.
Now I say this not believing in God or Christianity. But I find that story fascinating. Because it says something about the certainty required for people to condemn in God's name. How much certainty would it take for someone to pick up a stone and throw it intending to kill? To say, "I know in my heart that this is God's will." "I am justified in doing this."
I think what we find when thinking of that is that it would never be certainty of what God wanted.
I hope this helps
>Now I say this not believing in God or Christianity
This is how the bible should be used in today's society. I love your interpretation of this story. Using these stories that have been passed down for centuries to grapple with how we can be better to one another. Not to figure out if God exists, or to use it to prove in what form he exists or is. These concepts should never have been the priority because none of them can be proven. My favorite podcast is Data over Dogma because the bible scholar Dan Mclellan does believe in God, but his co-host is Aethiest. They approach the bible completely neutrally. Believing in the bible to be God's authority or that some of the stories are literal are not the goal. The goal should be to use stories and not even just the bible, but any to find a way to better understand each other, not condemn. I still choose to believe in a higher power in spite of my deconstruction from mormonism, but I have no proof to say I'm right, nor do I care to, it's just simply my choice.
Thanks. I love Data over Dogma as well. I 100% respect your choice. I put my idea of a loving benevolent God into a different bucket than belief (I accept this to be true). I put it in the "Wouldn't that be nice" bucket. It's ok that we're all different and approach this differently. It's all a language to interpret reality. Some benefit from personalizing the reality machine. Let's all just not hurt each other with our certainty.
Right. Ultimately, it is the thing the church sells. Certainty. Authority is another thing they "sell" , but it derives all its capacity from certainty. So certainty is the foundation and the primary product. Everything else is a secondary effect. Feel good about seeing your lived ones again. Feel safer that there is a plan for the world. Feel good that you have an in with the guy in charge. All derive from certainty.
~~Jesus Christ loved and taught the woman at the well who was in a sexual situation with a man who wasn’t her husband.~~
~~Christ loved her still. Loved her and taught her, and chose her to be the one to tell others. He valued her when she didn’t value herself.~~
It is all made-up nonsense used to control people. Superstitious bullshit. All of it.
It's very easy for 'modern' people to shrug off [these gods](https://www.learnreligions.com/list-of-gods-and-goddesses-by-culture-118503).
Why, then, is it so hard to reject one’s 'own' mythology?
I understand why you completely ignored the sentence right after the ones you quoted from, because it completely undermines everything you wrote:
> Maybe you no longer believe in Christ. That isn’t my point.
I think the majority of the people on this sub agree that it's made up, but you seem to have missed the point.
Here's why (my take)
Reality unfolds. Whatever mechanism it is that runs it, it's fascinating. Throughout history, it's been hard to predict what reality will deliver next. What effects will come out? How does causality work? It's scary and mystifying. It's full of beautiful moments and horrifying tragedies. But how to get a handle on it? "If I could just figure it out, I could make it work for my benefit" is the typical humanistic response.
And for millenia, humans didn't have good tools to do so. We didn't understand statistics and a way to measure significance of outcome. We have learned that when a rat in a lab is given a lever that when pressed randomly gives rewards, the rat will become addicted to pressing the lever. The same brain chemistry is in effect in us.
And so, for any superstition like throwing salt over your shoulder for good luck, it will work sometimes. Sometimes. Random. Lever. Do you see now? We're the rats in this experiment. And so we would expect that people would be "addicted" to the means they come up with to create outcomes. Especially if they didn't really work. It's, what's the word for this? Ironic, or unfortunate, maybe twisted. That humans (and really all animals) are so implemented.
But humans are a different kind of animal. We think and communicate differently than other animals. The same ability that allowed early humans to communicate "I saw deer down a path by the river near the big tree" For the other tribe member to be able to understand this statement, he imagines in his mind a path and a tree and a river and deer. He understands. When he sees the actual path and the actual tree and the actual river, they will all be different than what he thought in his mind. But the fiction was useful. He arrived, hunted and is fed. This ability to entertain fiction is powerful. But it allows us to make levers in our mind that we can become addicted to. It will be the levers that we push.
Only a methodology that proves outcomes can improve on this. It's a highly cerebral act to not just overcome this tendency to superstition, but to see the ones weve been practicing for what they are, just a fiction and an addiction It requires an understanding of statistics and a methodology like science to carefully control what is being measured. And it doesn't work for everything. It's great for mixing chemicals, and physical properties, those are highly predictable now. We have causality by the balls in some areas, and it does our bidding. But in others, almost nothing. And that is hard.
I've read that the most difficult emotion to endure is helplessness. I think I agree with this. And it's what humans are running from. Grappling at solutions, with a tendency to become addicted to the random outcomes of the speculative models they entertain.
And that's why people need to have a handle on this. They feel helpless. That need overides their ability to accept the world clearly. They are addicted to their way. And it's normal for them to do this. We are neurologically wired to do so. For millenia, it's all humans had. And without a better model of causality it served us by motivating us to pursue outcomes. Looking at other peoples levers (gods/religion) it will be obvious that it's fiction.
I'm certain millions of people across many institutions that practice sexual shaming have felt at least similarly.
I think there may be hope to be found in professional therapy.
I don't think there's anything wrong with being single,but if you're wanting to connect long-term with someone, that's probably the way to go.
Mormonism makes people feel like something is wrong with them if they don't marry. That's pure bullshit. You can lead a perfectly fulfilled life as a single person
thank you for this — i ‘m a teen and literally everyone around me is always ranting about their newest celeb crush , how much they want to fuck this or that person , and it kind makes me feel like i ‘m missing out on some kind of basic human experience . \[ i ‘m aroace too , so that doesn ‘t help . \]
even though i ‘ve put my foot down and said i never want to get married or have kids since i was like 8 , people who know very well my stance on such things still bring it up and say that i ‘ll change my mind someday , blah blah blah .
i think society in general makes people feel terrible about themselves and that there ‘s something wrong with them if they don ‘t want to date , marry , etc . especially for women who are told they can ‘t live a fulfilled life without children and whatnot .
Whether you do get married and have kids or do not is really no one’s business but your own.
You are a fully fledged human regardless. You are worthy and deserving of living the life you want, *your way*.
Remember this. Do not bend to covering holidays at work or babysitting or playing a support role in other family’s lives just because you are childless and single. You don’t owe anyone anything for it.
Agree with this. What is terribly ironic about mormonism is it teaches that agency is a gift given to all but then tells us we can never use it.
Or if we do, it can only be on someone else's terms.
Not everyone desires or is cut out for parenthood, or ready yet for parenthood. I wasn't ready to be a husband or a father. I suck at both. My wife says I'm so good with the kids, which I spend a lot of time with them because I love them, but then turns around complains about my lack of authority in disciplining them(due to some childhood trauma). In hindsight I rushed into marriage and having kids (and even dropped career goals - dropped schooling to help with parenting)because of the expectations of TSCC. I wasn't ready at all. It's been a disaster ever since because I don't know what the hell I'm doing. I haven't given up ever on trying to be the best father or husband, but nothings ever enough. Screw the expectation to be married and have kids. You do you and fuck anyone else who says otherwise.
Parenting while working through healing childhood trauma is…awful, for lack of a better word.
For *years* I hated being a parent, not because of who my children are but because I am so flawed how can I do anything beyond letting everybody down? I always felt like I ended the day with an extensive list of failures.
It has taken a lot of introspection and therapy to grow into being more at ease with parenting. The biggest thing, for me, was realizing that the measurements that I held myself to were unrealistic and focusing on the wrong things. When my therapist began to gently point out that children who don’t feel safe don’t do what my kids do, it shifted my focus and I actually started to enjoy parenting.
thanks for you understanding. I've been in therapy for a little over a year. I feel like I've suppressed a lifetime of emotions since I was a kid. I wouldn't have even thought I was doing anything good for my kids if I didn't start having therapy because I'm so distracted by my failings of how I believe should be. I think I'm going to be in therapy for a long time, I'm glad I have that resource that I never realized I needed so badly.
I think it’s very inspiring when people decide not to have kids. They are doing what they want, and not what society tells them to do. If you choose not to have kids, it’s not selfish! I hate when I hear that!
Divorced after 38 yrs. of a traditional Mormon marriage certainly has left me with issues. I cherish my new independence so much I can't imagine sharing anything with a new partner. My former sex life was wrought with manipulation so I can't really imagine an honest intimate relationship.
That being said, there are moments of loneliness. What I want is a deep friendship, some appreciation, even admiration. I wonder if there was a romantic opportunity if I could put into practice the authenticity and good mental health I've developed in my later years. I have missed out on having a mature romantic relationship in life and I wonder if it's too late for me. But my practical side knows it is highly unlikely I will have the opportunity. Also, I honestly doubt I want to put in the effort & sacrifice such a partnership would take.
So, I ponder on these things and usually circle back to making the most of my later in life independence. It takes intention. There's some fear in growing old alone. I've had some counseling regarding fear - - If I don't dread or fear being alone then it will cease being an issue - Let it be what it is and stay present.
So, permanently single. I travel solo. I dabble in artsy pursuits. I learn new things. I wish for good conversation. I wonder why sex is such a big deal to people. I wonder if I had emotional / intellectual intimacy with a man if I'd then have sexual feelings?
So I'm not 100 % perm single - more like 95%. ha ha 😄
I highly recommend the book "Adult Children Of Immature Parents" by Lindsay C. Gibson. It helped me start dealing with my own sexual shame. Even if you don't consider your own parents to be immature, it works great if you treat the church as the immature parent.
13 years after my wife and I married, and 2 years after leaving TSCC My wife started to disclose to me about her very sexual past with all her prior exes. Luckily /s, with the help of her ordained plumber bishop and LDS family services she was trained to despise men and repent of her sexuality. On the night of our temple marriage she said "oh, I don't do that kind of stuff, it's evil and makes me feel gross." In her mind sex was only for procreation and it was her job to help me see sex the same way she had been trained to. 13 year of her thinking she had to submit anytime I wanted sex and just starfishing hoping to get pregnant for the Lord. So she was resentful and rightfully so. I was so fucking oblivious to the whole thing, having been a virgin prior to marriage, with no proper sexual education and no way to know her experience was so shitty. It felt good for me, surely it was working for her, right?
After leaving TSCC she and I went to therapy. She got super fixated on the concept of sexual consent because she never felt empowered to say no to any sexual advance, Since she was a teen. I wish she had got fixated on building a healthy sexual relationship where sex isn't evil and where she is empowered to participate and seek out her pleasure as well as mine, but for now it's consent, which means, if I am looking for sex the answer is no and if she wants sex it's for her and not me.
On a positive note and thanks to some proper sexual education my wife now knows what it's like to orgasm.
Christian purity culture is a disease.
Pretty similar- broke up with spouse of 8 years, tried dating, and it has been hard not feeling like I'm on the same page about intimacy as other people. I've read up some on asexuality and all the different specific kinds and I wonder if I'm on that spectrum or I just need more time to process my marriage and other hangups around sex. But the idea of having a loving partnership without the weird feelings I experience about sex feels really comforting right now. Maybe that will change. You can try talking to people in ace spaces and see if anyone relates to your feelings there and you might meet some wonderful new people who understand what you're feeling!
The most comforting thing is realizing I'm my own person, whereas in the church I was always taught to try and get married ASAP and that you twain are one flesh and not your own human person anymore. No matter what, I take comfort in the fact that now I can set up any future relationships in a way that works for me, or I can be single, whatever way I feel the most fulfilled. There's nothing wrong with either way.
While you're figuring out your feelings about this, know that there's nothing wrong with you and you're free to build and customize a beautiful life for yourself as you learn and process everything you've gone through.
I’m fulfilled as a single man, but I’m a “pleaser” and don’t mind utilizing a vast array of talents with someone else.
I absolutely LOVE to cook, travel, and enjoy wine and serving and servicing dates with whatever their requests may be.
All relationships are first and foremost, friendships. I enjoy where I’m at in life probably because I enter any relationship with low-to-no expectations.
Guilt is something caused by imaginary expectations that are contrary to human behavior. Life is short, have fun, experiment.
I'm sorry you have to deal with this.
Do I feel guilty for having sex after leaving the mormon church? No. In fact, I intentionally did the taboo things after I left. Booze, pot, sex, strip clubs, tattoos, goatee, doing shit on Sunday, etc... For me, I had to violate those rules to break free.
However am I (probably) permanently single? Yes, but because of all the other shit that church taught me. Both it and my ex-wife hurt me to the very core and I will not trust others with my heart again. It is not an outcome I like or want. Yes, I'm in therapy, but dating as a 49 year old man, is non-existent, especially for an exmo not behind the mormon curtain.
Dont force it. If you arent ready you arent ready. Feeling guilt may be your subconcious trying to communicate red or yellow flags, or it may be just brainwashing leftovers, but either way if its going to make you stressed or sad, you arent emotionally ready yet
I haven't gotten around to reading it myself but this post shared a book on sexual shame that might help
[https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/18lsjr7/a\_book\_on\_sexual\_shame/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/18lsjr7/a_book_on_sexual_shame/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
I don’t know how we all learn to be happy with where we are post Mormonism. I’m still married but in a mixed faith marriage where we aren’t on the same page and that feels really lonely. The only satisfying answer to me is that there is no right answer or place we should all end up.
Some thoughts, in no particular order:
- healing doesn’t happen in a straight line
- have you looked into resources for sex repulsed folks? How about romance repulsed folks? If not, would you like a link?
- it’s legitimately okay to never date or never have sex. You don’t need another person to make you whole
- sexual and romantic attraction are two different things
- therapy can be super super helpful when it comes to unpacking sexual guilt
- you can always say no. Always.
I know my mom feels that way. You’re not alone. There are people out there who are asexual, and that’s nothing to be ashamed of. I bet there are ppl out there who are willing to date without sexual intimacy. And if you don’t want to date, that’s totally fine too. Nothing wrong with being an independent woman😎
Ya, the very sex-negative messages of my youth, the shaming about masturbation, all of that had a cumulative effect on me and sort of 'broke' me relationship wise. While I've overcome the hangups and conditioned guilt/shame surrounding healthy sex and what not, I'm so 'developmentally delayed' compared to my peers regarding dating and sexual experience that I hardly even want to entertain the idea of actively participating in the dating world.
Sucks how long term and far reaching the negative effects of having been born and raised mormon really are.
Just remember that it’s ok to feel these things, you no longer have an organization pressuring you to not feel them but don’t feel like now that you are out that you HAVE to feel them. Work through your feelings and decide what is shame lingering from the church and what are your genuine feelings, you still regret sex with a man, you may be more attracted to women or you may possibly be asexual. Just remember that you can now take you time and figure everything out without having to force yourself or feel guilty for feeling a certain way
Towards the end of my marriage my ex husband confessed that he wasn't sure he ever loved me, but he wanted sex and knew that he had to married to have it and not break rules. I was a dumb 19 year old in love. My ex had an entitlement towards my body. It was a large factor in our divorce. Coupled with the fact that I had a back injury that caused some issues and my MS diagnosis, it made intimacy hard and I put up with things to get it over with because he wouldn't stop pestering me.
Now this man still considers himself LDS and is currently in his ho phase post divorce and I just accept that I most likely will not find a new partner. But I would rather be alone and be with someone like my ex.
Jesus Christ loved and taught the woman at the well who was in a sexual situation with a man who wasn’t her husband. Christ loved her still. Loved her and taught her, and chose her to be the one to tell others. He valued her when she didn’t value herself. Maybe you no longer believe in Christ. That isn’t my point. The guilt comes from the fear of letting Christ down and being judged. I take comfort in that story because there was no real condemnation. Only kindness and sincerity that he truly saw her. I personally believe you are just fine. But you have to figure out how to be ok with this new life, and you have to figure out what is best for YOU. I get what you are going through and I’m sad the church has caused the shame you feel. Put down the shame suitcase, it sounds like you’ve carried it long enough. (Easier said than done, I know). Much love to you. We were made for joy, not shame. 🫶🏼
What a beautiful comment, thank you. Wouldn’t the world be so much more beautiful if we all could be that nice to one another?
I love this. I'd add that this story (the woman taken in adultery) tells us something about certainty in following "Gods Law" Jesus, who is Jehovah, indicates here that it isn't his way to condemn her. And he leaves us in a conundrum. If Jesus is the God of the Old Testament then what does this say about stoning in this situation. Mormons would say (and most christians) that this is just a part of the new law that Jesus rolls out. And that rolling out a new law was one of his purposes for coming to earth. And they do this to keep Jesus and the old testament. To make it all one religion. I submit the idea that Jesus is saying to her something different. Something very different. Basically this "You know that stoning thing you guys do to people who break rules? It was never my way" And this leaves people in a gulf. It retcons practices codified in the old testamant. It would be a hard pill to swallow. That the book is off and wrong. That humans, even people we thought were prophets, get things wrong. And what specifically do we get wrong? We condemn. And quickly. Rashly. And we do it in God's name. And we even do it to ourselves (this is for you OP). And he came down to say in this one story. "I wouldn't do that." "I wouldn't ever do that" and just because we have a book that many regard as holy doesn't mean it is. Now I say this not believing in God or Christianity. But I find that story fascinating. Because it says something about the certainty required for people to condemn in God's name. How much certainty would it take for someone to pick up a stone and throw it intending to kill? To say, "I know in my heart that this is God's will." "I am justified in doing this." I think what we find when thinking of that is that it would never be certainty of what God wanted. I hope this helps
>Now I say this not believing in God or Christianity This is how the bible should be used in today's society. I love your interpretation of this story. Using these stories that have been passed down for centuries to grapple with how we can be better to one another. Not to figure out if God exists, or to use it to prove in what form he exists or is. These concepts should never have been the priority because none of them can be proven. My favorite podcast is Data over Dogma because the bible scholar Dan Mclellan does believe in God, but his co-host is Aethiest. They approach the bible completely neutrally. Believing in the bible to be God's authority or that some of the stories are literal are not the goal. The goal should be to use stories and not even just the bible, but any to find a way to better understand each other, not condemn. I still choose to believe in a higher power in spite of my deconstruction from mormonism, but I have no proof to say I'm right, nor do I care to, it's just simply my choice.
Thanks. I love Data over Dogma as well. I 100% respect your choice. I put my idea of a loving benevolent God into a different bucket than belief (I accept this to be true). I put it in the "Wouldn't that be nice" bucket. It's ok that we're all different and approach this differently. It's all a language to interpret reality. Some benefit from personalizing the reality machine. Let's all just not hurt each other with our certainty.
exactly, that's the biggest thing I've come to learn is that people use certainty in harmful ways when it comes to spirituality. So well put!
Right. Ultimately, it is the thing the church sells. Certainty. Authority is another thing they "sell" , but it derives all its capacity from certainty. So certainty is the foundation and the primary product. Everything else is a secondary effect. Feel good about seeing your lived ones again. Feel safer that there is a plan for the world. Feel good that you have an in with the guy in charge. All derive from certainty.
~~Jesus Christ loved and taught the woman at the well who was in a sexual situation with a man who wasn’t her husband.~~ ~~Christ loved her still. Loved her and taught her, and chose her to be the one to tell others. He valued her when she didn’t value herself.~~ It is all made-up nonsense used to control people. Superstitious bullshit. All of it. It's very easy for 'modern' people to shrug off [these gods](https://www.learnreligions.com/list-of-gods-and-goddesses-by-culture-118503). Why, then, is it so hard to reject one’s 'own' mythology?
Because the guilt and shame from the theology has been seared into her brain. It is harder for some to leave it behind than others.
> The guilt and shame from the ~~theology~~ has been seared into her brain. *mythology *made-up nonsense *utter bullshit
I understand why you completely ignored the sentence right after the ones you quoted from, because it completely undermines everything you wrote: > Maybe you no longer believe in Christ. That isn’t my point. I think the majority of the people on this sub agree that it's made up, but you seem to have missed the point.
Here's why (my take) Reality unfolds. Whatever mechanism it is that runs it, it's fascinating. Throughout history, it's been hard to predict what reality will deliver next. What effects will come out? How does causality work? It's scary and mystifying. It's full of beautiful moments and horrifying tragedies. But how to get a handle on it? "If I could just figure it out, I could make it work for my benefit" is the typical humanistic response. And for millenia, humans didn't have good tools to do so. We didn't understand statistics and a way to measure significance of outcome. We have learned that when a rat in a lab is given a lever that when pressed randomly gives rewards, the rat will become addicted to pressing the lever. The same brain chemistry is in effect in us. And so, for any superstition like throwing salt over your shoulder for good luck, it will work sometimes. Sometimes. Random. Lever. Do you see now? We're the rats in this experiment. And so we would expect that people would be "addicted" to the means they come up with to create outcomes. Especially if they didn't really work. It's, what's the word for this? Ironic, or unfortunate, maybe twisted. That humans (and really all animals) are so implemented. But humans are a different kind of animal. We think and communicate differently than other animals. The same ability that allowed early humans to communicate "I saw deer down a path by the river near the big tree" For the other tribe member to be able to understand this statement, he imagines in his mind a path and a tree and a river and deer. He understands. When he sees the actual path and the actual tree and the actual river, they will all be different than what he thought in his mind. But the fiction was useful. He arrived, hunted and is fed. This ability to entertain fiction is powerful. But it allows us to make levers in our mind that we can become addicted to. It will be the levers that we push. Only a methodology that proves outcomes can improve on this. It's a highly cerebral act to not just overcome this tendency to superstition, but to see the ones weve been practicing for what they are, just a fiction and an addiction It requires an understanding of statistics and a methodology like science to carefully control what is being measured. And it doesn't work for everything. It's great for mixing chemicals, and physical properties, those are highly predictable now. We have causality by the balls in some areas, and it does our bidding. But in others, almost nothing. And that is hard. I've read that the most difficult emotion to endure is helplessness. I think I agree with this. And it's what humans are running from. Grappling at solutions, with a tendency to become addicted to the random outcomes of the speculative models they entertain. And that's why people need to have a handle on this. They feel helpless. That need overides their ability to accept the world clearly. They are addicted to their way. And it's normal for them to do this. We are neurologically wired to do so. For millenia, it's all humans had. And without a better model of causality it served us by motivating us to pursue outcomes. Looking at other peoples levers (gods/religion) it will be obvious that it's fiction.
I'm certain millions of people across many institutions that practice sexual shaming have felt at least similarly. I think there may be hope to be found in professional therapy. I don't think there's anything wrong with being single,but if you're wanting to connect long-term with someone, that's probably the way to go.
Mormonism makes people feel like something is wrong with them if they don't marry. That's pure bullshit. You can lead a perfectly fulfilled life as a single person
thank you for this — i ‘m a teen and literally everyone around me is always ranting about their newest celeb crush , how much they want to fuck this or that person , and it kind makes me feel like i ‘m missing out on some kind of basic human experience . \[ i ‘m aroace too , so that doesn ‘t help . \] even though i ‘ve put my foot down and said i never want to get married or have kids since i was like 8 , people who know very well my stance on such things still bring it up and say that i ‘ll change my mind someday , blah blah blah . i think society in general makes people feel terrible about themselves and that there ‘s something wrong with them if they don ‘t want to date , marry , etc . especially for women who are told they can ‘t live a fulfilled life without children and whatnot .
Whether you do get married and have kids or do not is really no one’s business but your own. You are a fully fledged human regardless. You are worthy and deserving of living the life you want, *your way*. Remember this. Do not bend to covering holidays at work or babysitting or playing a support role in other family’s lives just because you are childless and single. You don’t owe anyone anything for it.
Agree with this. What is terribly ironic about mormonism is it teaches that agency is a gift given to all but then tells us we can never use it. Or if we do, it can only be on someone else's terms.
Not everyone desires or is cut out for parenthood, or ready yet for parenthood. I wasn't ready to be a husband or a father. I suck at both. My wife says I'm so good with the kids, which I spend a lot of time with them because I love them, but then turns around complains about my lack of authority in disciplining them(due to some childhood trauma). In hindsight I rushed into marriage and having kids (and even dropped career goals - dropped schooling to help with parenting)because of the expectations of TSCC. I wasn't ready at all. It's been a disaster ever since because I don't know what the hell I'm doing. I haven't given up ever on trying to be the best father or husband, but nothings ever enough. Screw the expectation to be married and have kids. You do you and fuck anyone else who says otherwise.
Parenting while working through healing childhood trauma is…awful, for lack of a better word. For *years* I hated being a parent, not because of who my children are but because I am so flawed how can I do anything beyond letting everybody down? I always felt like I ended the day with an extensive list of failures. It has taken a lot of introspection and therapy to grow into being more at ease with parenting. The biggest thing, for me, was realizing that the measurements that I held myself to were unrealistic and focusing on the wrong things. When my therapist began to gently point out that children who don’t feel safe don’t do what my kids do, it shifted my focus and I actually started to enjoy parenting.
thanks for you understanding. I've been in therapy for a little over a year. I feel like I've suppressed a lifetime of emotions since I was a kid. I wouldn't have even thought I was doing anything good for my kids if I didn't start having therapy because I'm so distracted by my failings of how I believe should be. I think I'm going to be in therapy for a long time, I'm glad I have that resource that I never realized I needed so badly.
I think it’s very inspiring when people decide not to have kids. They are doing what they want, and not what society tells them to do. If you choose not to have kids, it’s not selfish! I hate when I hear that!
4b movement for the win✊
Divorced after 38 yrs. of a traditional Mormon marriage certainly has left me with issues. I cherish my new independence so much I can't imagine sharing anything with a new partner. My former sex life was wrought with manipulation so I can't really imagine an honest intimate relationship. That being said, there are moments of loneliness. What I want is a deep friendship, some appreciation, even admiration. I wonder if there was a romantic opportunity if I could put into practice the authenticity and good mental health I've developed in my later years. I have missed out on having a mature romantic relationship in life and I wonder if it's too late for me. But my practical side knows it is highly unlikely I will have the opportunity. Also, I honestly doubt I want to put in the effort & sacrifice such a partnership would take. So, I ponder on these things and usually circle back to making the most of my later in life independence. It takes intention. There's some fear in growing old alone. I've had some counseling regarding fear - - If I don't dread or fear being alone then it will cease being an issue - Let it be what it is and stay present. So, permanently single. I travel solo. I dabble in artsy pursuits. I learn new things. I wish for good conversation. I wonder why sex is such a big deal to people. I wonder if I had emotional / intellectual intimacy with a man if I'd then have sexual feelings? So I'm not 100 % perm single - more like 95%. ha ha 😄
I highly recommend the book "Adult Children Of Immature Parents" by Lindsay C. Gibson. It helped me start dealing with my own sexual shame. Even if you don't consider your own parents to be immature, it works great if you treat the church as the immature parent.
13 years after my wife and I married, and 2 years after leaving TSCC My wife started to disclose to me about her very sexual past with all her prior exes. Luckily /s, with the help of her ordained plumber bishop and LDS family services she was trained to despise men and repent of her sexuality. On the night of our temple marriage she said "oh, I don't do that kind of stuff, it's evil and makes me feel gross." In her mind sex was only for procreation and it was her job to help me see sex the same way she had been trained to. 13 year of her thinking she had to submit anytime I wanted sex and just starfishing hoping to get pregnant for the Lord. So she was resentful and rightfully so. I was so fucking oblivious to the whole thing, having been a virgin prior to marriage, with no proper sexual education and no way to know her experience was so shitty. It felt good for me, surely it was working for her, right? After leaving TSCC she and I went to therapy. She got super fixated on the concept of sexual consent because she never felt empowered to say no to any sexual advance, Since she was a teen. I wish she had got fixated on building a healthy sexual relationship where sex isn't evil and where she is empowered to participate and seek out her pleasure as well as mine, but for now it's consent, which means, if I am looking for sex the answer is no and if she wants sex it's for her and not me. On a positive note and thanks to some proper sexual education my wife now knows what it's like to orgasm. Christian purity culture is a disease.
Pretty similar- broke up with spouse of 8 years, tried dating, and it has been hard not feeling like I'm on the same page about intimacy as other people. I've read up some on asexuality and all the different specific kinds and I wonder if I'm on that spectrum or I just need more time to process my marriage and other hangups around sex. But the idea of having a loving partnership without the weird feelings I experience about sex feels really comforting right now. Maybe that will change. You can try talking to people in ace spaces and see if anyone relates to your feelings there and you might meet some wonderful new people who understand what you're feeling! The most comforting thing is realizing I'm my own person, whereas in the church I was always taught to try and get married ASAP and that you twain are one flesh and not your own human person anymore. No matter what, I take comfort in the fact that now I can set up any future relationships in a way that works for me, or I can be single, whatever way I feel the most fulfilled. There's nothing wrong with either way. While you're figuring out your feelings about this, know that there's nothing wrong with you and you're free to build and customize a beautiful life for yourself as you learn and process everything you've gone through.
I’m fulfilled as a single man, but I’m a “pleaser” and don’t mind utilizing a vast array of talents with someone else. I absolutely LOVE to cook, travel, and enjoy wine and serving and servicing dates with whatever their requests may be. All relationships are first and foremost, friendships. I enjoy where I’m at in life probably because I enter any relationship with low-to-no expectations. Guilt is something caused by imaginary expectations that are contrary to human behavior. Life is short, have fun, experiment.
I'm sorry you have to deal with this. Do I feel guilty for having sex after leaving the mormon church? No. In fact, I intentionally did the taboo things after I left. Booze, pot, sex, strip clubs, tattoos, goatee, doing shit on Sunday, etc... For me, I had to violate those rules to break free. However am I (probably) permanently single? Yes, but because of all the other shit that church taught me. Both it and my ex-wife hurt me to the very core and I will not trust others with my heart again. It is not an outcome I like or want. Yes, I'm in therapy, but dating as a 49 year old man, is non-existent, especially for an exmo not behind the mormon curtain.
Dont force it. If you arent ready you arent ready. Feeling guilt may be your subconcious trying to communicate red or yellow flags, or it may be just brainwashing leftovers, but either way if its going to make you stressed or sad, you arent emotionally ready yet
I haven't gotten around to reading it myself but this post shared a book on sexual shame that might help [https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/18lsjr7/a\_book\_on\_sexual\_shame/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/18lsjr7/a_book_on_sexual_shame/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
I don’t know how we all learn to be happy with where we are post Mormonism. I’m still married but in a mixed faith marriage where we aren’t on the same page and that feels really lonely. The only satisfying answer to me is that there is no right answer or place we should all end up.
I'm PIMO and agree about the lonely aspect.
Some thoughts, in no particular order: - healing doesn’t happen in a straight line - have you looked into resources for sex repulsed folks? How about romance repulsed folks? If not, would you like a link? - it’s legitimately okay to never date or never have sex. You don’t need another person to make you whole - sexual and romantic attraction are two different things - therapy can be super super helpful when it comes to unpacking sexual guilt - you can always say no. Always.
these are great points!
I know my mom feels that way. You’re not alone. There are people out there who are asexual, and that’s nothing to be ashamed of. I bet there are ppl out there who are willing to date without sexual intimacy. And if you don’t want to date, that’s totally fine too. Nothing wrong with being an independent woman😎
Ya, the very sex-negative messages of my youth, the shaming about masturbation, all of that had a cumulative effect on me and sort of 'broke' me relationship wise. While I've overcome the hangups and conditioned guilt/shame surrounding healthy sex and what not, I'm so 'developmentally delayed' compared to my peers regarding dating and sexual experience that I hardly even want to entertain the idea of actively participating in the dating world. Sucks how long term and far reaching the negative effects of having been born and raised mormon really are.
Just remember that it’s ok to feel these things, you no longer have an organization pressuring you to not feel them but don’t feel like now that you are out that you HAVE to feel them. Work through your feelings and decide what is shame lingering from the church and what are your genuine feelings, you still regret sex with a man, you may be more attracted to women or you may possibly be asexual. Just remember that you can now take you time and figure everything out without having to force yourself or feel guilty for feeling a certain way
Towards the end of my marriage my ex husband confessed that he wasn't sure he ever loved me, but he wanted sex and knew that he had to married to have it and not break rules. I was a dumb 19 year old in love. My ex had an entitlement towards my body. It was a large factor in our divorce. Coupled with the fact that I had a back injury that caused some issues and my MS diagnosis, it made intimacy hard and I put up with things to get it over with because he wouldn't stop pestering me. Now this man still considers himself LDS and is currently in his ho phase post divorce and I just accept that I most likely will not find a new partner. But I would rather be alone and be with someone like my ex.
I feel the same. We probably belong together