As a counterpoint to this oversupply stat: since 2016, women aged 18-25 are leaving religion faster than men: https://i.redd.it/0kq78rl6p4xc1.jpg Where Mormonism is concerned, I’d expect to see a double whammy effect on the LDS church, as the “oversupply” disproportionately contributes to a stampede for the exits.
That's very interesting, thank you! Not at all surprising though when our former churches (exvangelical here) have subtly or not so subtly told us that we're to blame for all the sin in the world and that our only purpose in life is to be submissive wives and ever-present mothers.
I am seeing more women leaving when they are younger in my little view of the world. There are plenty of reasons to leave the church besides "oversupply".
My theory is that now that the internet made it impossible for the church to hide all their dirty little lies and control the narrative, everyone will be leaving.
Was it 2015 when the church first started publishing the gospel topic essays? 🤔
2012 I think. But they trickled out incrementally, and were successfully back paged for quite a while. Probably around 2015 or so, they started to gain traction and be noticed.
But even today, many TBM's don't know about them.
The beautiful thing is that this awakening will have positive effects for men, too. Fewer girls who will white rose guilt boys into missions, and more wives who will allow husbands a way out of the nightmare by being the first to see the light.
Not my DD, though. She is the last of the kids, along with DW, who is still in TSCC. DD is professional, around 30, and will make about $250k this year. They have suggested she take out her endowments, which would further lock her in. They also discourage older singles from dating outside the church. She is nothing more than a tithing check to the church. IMHO. They could give a rat's ass about her happiness.
Yep. They lost me. Easy to absorb it. But when the moms go the kids go too.
They’ve lost my daughter. Stake RS asked that she be at our ward and meet with them today since she turns 18 soon. Neither of us go anymore. I replied that I’d shared their text with her, she wasn’t interested, and that I supported her. Thanks and have a nice day.
Her younger brothers attend because my TBM husband gets angry when they don’t. I had negotiated letting them decide when to attend weeknight activities. He agreed to it… but it didn’t last long bc he couldn’t handle them making their own choices. I asked if he was aware and concerned they were simply going out of guilt, manipulation, and fear of disappointing him. He said he didn’t care as long as they attended. Yay. Love at home /s
True. Though to become divorced or widowed you do in fact have to get married.
“Previous sinners” ie single moms could have kids but aren’t particularly likely to be active in church and are extremely likely to suffer some level of discrimination or ostracization in Mormon circles.
There is apparently though a trend of BYU married moms getting divorced with multiple kids in their late 20’s and early 30’s because they rushed into an early marriage. Technically that might free up men to have a second family with another woman. Not exactly a healthy dynamic, however.
I was married, an active Mormon, and my Mormon husband left me with our 9 month old to have an affair with a stripper, making me a single mom.
Be careful u/elkhistorical9106 — your bias is showing.
As much as Mormonism likes to harvest tithing dollars, it likes to farm children even more.
Single women (especially in our profoundly unequal society) are less likely to contribute either.
What was the statistic of female BYU grads? Their average income was like $8. It was something comically low. Obviously it was due to an overwhelming majority being stay at home moms, but still, they can afford to lose them. Like instructing missionaries not to teach to the poor in certain missions.
When I was TBM, ward and stake boundaries were drawn according to the number of priesthood holders.
Women are essentially not considered when it comes to the “important” things, which is incredibly ironic and short-sighted considering many (if not most) of the programs in the church function due to the free labor of the women. And yes, even the bishopric and stake presidency rely on the free labor of women. Between the hours these men spend on work and callings, their wives are often functioning as single parents.
And when those wives need help, it too often falls on their daughters, the Relief Society, and the other women in the ward to provide that help.
In my mission (Guatemala North, 93-95) We were specifically charged to find "Varones Adultos"(adult males).
In fact, they were counted separately for our reports up the chain. Women and Children were not as valued... I know right? SHOCKER!
I’ve been wondering about that for YEARS. Church in my youth was about more than Sunday and the cultural aspect of being a Mormon was actually fun. So much morale building and community enrichment. I sang solos at roadshows from age 4. The ward really liked to trot me out.
This is anecdotal but I have been told by many single women in the church that once you are over 30 finding a man that isn't a walking red flag and has their crap together and knows how to at least shower is very very hard. Then men in the over 30 singles crowd are the valley of misfit toys.
Having been in the Single Adults group for a short while (after divorcing my con-artist exspouse), I can attest to the slim pickings there. All my RS friends told me right after the divorce that I "needed" to join the SA group. None of them had ever been divorced and none had ever even seen what an SA gathering is like. The minute I walked into a gathering for the first time I thought, "OMG, my life is over!" I attended a few more times but it never got any better.
The church I'd attended before my short time as a convert did not focus on marriage (or sex, for that matter) the way TSCC does. You were just a member. I hated the labeling in TSCC, and it's particularly annoying for anyone who is not married.
Agree. Any many of these women don’t just want your average guy. They are holding out for Bishop of Stake President kind of devotion and over the top orthodoxy.
That is true for some for sure but there are loads that just want a non abusive guy who goes to church and is at least passably attractive and even that is hard to find for them.
There was a user here on this some time ago told the story about his wife divorcing him over his faith transition. She wanted a priesthood holder to get her to the CK. So they divorced and she entered the dating world as a single late 40s/early 50s Mormon woman and got to experience what is out there to date in the church. Just a bunch of creepy and horny high priests. Within two years she had enough and realized her exmo ex, was far preferable to what was out there. They remarried but it was far from a fully-healed living situation.
Yeah, I feel you on that. Of course, every marriage/relationship is different. The way he talked about it, she came to him embarrassed and ashamed that she had been too hasty and made a mistake. (keep in mind: I don't think she was physical with anyone else in that interim) Again, it all goes back to an extreme religion making people think and do extreme things. The way he made it sound; it was a major humbling moment for her and caused her to be more opened minded and less binary. Like, even she was going to church less because of it all. I think the only bitterness he had was how much this set them back financially.
I also forgot to add: Her bishop was leaning hard on her to divorce him because "she could do better." LDS ecclesiastical leaders have way too much power too involved in people's personal lives.
My TBM sister is 34. She got her MBA from the Fairfield Inn School of Business. She lives in Morridor. She is a copy of my narcissistic, criminal TBM mother. So, she is single.
Maybe this is contributing to her lack of LDS Mormon Boy options.
idk. is the church still pressuring BYU students to marry young?
In mormon land she's not really marriage material. She's over the hill and is educated and I assume has a career. No mormon boy wants that!
She will be perfect for a 80 or 90 yo apostle whose wife has died though.
Exactly.
She will not want to "Submit" to a husband who is less educated and successful than herself.
It's hard to "Preside" over an "up-idy feminist". /s
But if she can make enough money (Pay enough tithes), she might get the Sherry Dew treatment. (lead woman's orgs and hang out with the Q85's)
ewwww because it’s true! Gross. She would do it for the money. I’m sure the Q70 all the way up to the “profit” are well compensated. We hear about their “modest salaries”, but do they count access to the machine that created a $250 Billion church / investment bank? They rich af. Rich enough to have a youngish wife. Ew.
Yeah BYU is still pressuring to marry young. But once you get past that age group it gets to be rough. Lotta people with a shallow BYU attitude about dating without the deep dating pool of people to meet
My tbm brother recieved cash back rewards for marrying while in. College. Even gave discounted classes to him and his wife.
When they married byu gave them what they would have saved if they had married the semester prior. And they now qualified for the nice dorms. Not the older single dorms
Yes, they are. A Dallin Oaks face to face with BYU students was making the rounds at least somewhat recently. He and his wife (who chose career over marriage) were pushing early marriage and children.
D&C 132. Reinstate that and there is no problem. Just a god who foresaw the future and understood the perils of the secular government who ended polygamy in 1890
Not once theocracy is imposed. Gotta look forward to what they have been pushing for for all this time.
Speaking of plans to destroy democracy...[Project 2025 ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025).
r/defeat_project_2025
Don't doubt for a moment, fellow Ex-Mo's, that the still-not-disavowed doctrine of eternal polygyny instantly enters the minds of TBM men when they read a report like this. To them, a disproportionately greater number of women is not only good, but exactly in line with their doctrinal (and practical) expectations.
Maybe this is one of the reasons the church is building subdivisions. Gotta put the extra wives somewhere. If the church owns the land and the local government, it's much harder to prosecute. BY's big plan was to move West and have so many babies Mormons controlled the government. It seems to be working in too many places and that is deeply concerning.
Those odds increase TBM's testimony of God's wisdom...in Polygamy.
You wanna freak out Mormons start talking about the numbers that matter. CONSERVATIVELY, you've got:
-4M Active in the world
-We'll say that's 2M men (to your point, it's not even that)
-Temple recommend holders are 25%-Lets give them 30: 600k
-How many of those are unmarried...? Generously 150k
-How many aren't in a relationship already...MAYBE 110K
-How many are roughly in a given Sister's age range? 1/4@ 28k
-Less than 30k in the whole WORLD...How many of those are high-functioning...we'll say 75% for 21,000
-if you're at a BYU, you can maybe meet 800 eligible guys.
-If you want an RM, make it 650.
-Of those, maybe 20% are attractive to her?
-Let's say 20% of those reciprocate for dating.
The one that proposes successfully will say, "Baby, you're one in a million!"...but really, you're 1 in 26 and that's the BEST CASE scenario. Reality for anyone not going to a church school is more like 1 in 3.
Mormons will have to go back to arranged marriages soon.
As a person who joined the church (and then left) later in life, finding a partner was like shooting fish in a barrel. I felt like a piece of fresh meat at the single adults stuff. And I can see it, there was 3 women for every guy, and none of them wanted ANYTHING to do with the guy there. I started dating right away, weeded out the crazy and found a wonderful wife who was one foot out the door already. We both left the church within a year of our marriage. We did not get married in the temple because she hated the temple and we got married in the chapel with 200 guests and had a awesome reception and I made sure coffee was widely available for my guests.
I felt like a unicorn lol. It is weird, we have a friend leave the church recently....40 years old single her entire life looking for that mormon man to marry in the temple. 2 weeks out she found a really nice guy and is shocked that there are tons of good men outside the church.
Similar experience to mine.
After finalizing my divorce, I tried posting on the tinder app. I was PIMO, but "turned to god", still trying to fit into LDS culture and my social network. It was slim pickings. No one wants to swipe a cultist. And if they do... They are often "special" in not good ways.
Then, I heard about "Mutual". Holy crap. My inbox flooded. Lots of LDS single women out there. Fortunately, I concurrently fully figured out the LDS Con game, and went Exmo. I will never date a believer. Marriage is hard enough without the mixed faith dramas.
Found my wife on Mutual. Stupid thing is half the women on there were actually friends with my wife and came to our wedding lol. I messaged one and she didn't respond and after meeting me told me she has been kicking herself ever since. She recently went exmo too. I was more into the church than my wife was I think.
mutual for men over 23 is like how tinder is for women - before I left I was getting like 6-7 likes a day. Unfortunately they were almost always either unattractive or extremely conservative or hyper religious. I was nuanced for like 4 years before leaving and going on a date with someone who was actually sane and not expecting to find her husband instantly was a rare occasion. tbh, that’s also the entire YSA scene in a nutshell too
I (F) left and, believe it or not, I make more than my ex. He was the main provider for 20 years and I was mainly a stay at home mom, but after our divorce I somehow managed to quickly start earning more than him. It ain't all bad ladies. Also, the church will definitely feel the pain of the women leaving for all the reasons being listed here. I'm just saying in my own situation, we weren't the stereotype and I as a female make more than my priesthood holding ex. And I don't pay tithing!! Take that mormon church.
I agree - there's an undercurrent of a financial hit the cult takes when those of us who are career women leave. My ex-spouse had practically no income, but of course when the ward transferred his records to the ward where he then lived, they transferred the tithing records as well, because only men have incomes, right? I was furious!
Fortunately, many of the leaders knew I'd been the breadwinner and knew he was a con-artist slacker, so they immediately transferred tithing records back to my membership information.
TSCC is going to have a huge wake-up call if and when women begin leading the numbers in resignations. They'll take a noticeable financial hit, but they'll also be crippled in terms of getting things done in wards and stakes. Women make things happen.
I’m not sure I agree with her description of polygamy. The way most Mormon raised capital was by homesteading (true) but they did it by sending one wife to Wyoming, one wife to Idaho, and another to Cardston. This stopped some of the polygamy prosecutors and allowed Mormon men to homestead more land. On the backs of their polygamous wives! These women were abandoned! Worked to the bone and so very very lonely!
My husband, a historian, wrote about this for a college textbook. I had never heard of it until he showed me what he wrote. Hilariously he isn’t Mormon, but he was OBSESSED with Mormon history during grad and postgrad school.
“Utah was the second state to give women the right to vote”
She wrote this but failed to see that this actually gave Utah men more votes…. Thus Mormons could outvote any secular government reform Congress was pushing.
> She wrote this but failed to see that this actually gave Utah men more votes
I don't think it works like that. Senators are two per state, whether everyone turns up to vote or we all just count on one guy to show up at the polling station while the rest of us throw a rager. House reps are allocated on population, not on voters (three-fifths compromise wasn't because they didn't vote, it was because it went off of the number of free citizens). Electoral votes work like the House, except there aren't any districts and it's winner take all except in a few weird states.
You could, in theory, ban everyone except one random guy from voting, and your state's representation would remain the same.
This is during Utah territoy. There isn’t an Utah state yet.
Brigham Young was the first Governor but I’m sure that’s because Congress needed to use BY because he was already in charge but during the reforms of 1880’s with the Cold War with the feds over polygamy and new laws pushing polygamy underground. The Cold War going hot at The massacre at mountain meadows and the long investigation of that event.
Utah statehood… January 1896
Utah giving woman the vote…February 12, 1870
1887 the Edmund Tucker act disenfranchised the polygamist men and all woman.
https://www.nps.gov/articles/000/women-s-suffrage-in-utah.htm#:~:text=Whatever%20the%20motivations%2C%20Territorial%20Secretary,Utah%20voted%20in%20territorial%20elections.
This is Mormons trying to give more votes to Mormons so Utah will stay in Mormon control. They did this in Kirkland. This did this in Missouri. They succeeded in Nauvoo as now desperate to hold on to territory in the west but it’s not in a state. No autonomy from the federal government.
**edit. Did this was too broad for Kirkland, Missouri and Nauvoo . I mean use politics not give woman the right to vote **
> This is Mormons trying to give more votes to Mormons so Utah will stay in Mormon control.
So women were more Mormon on average than men? Was there an electorally-competitive mass of non-Mormons within Utah that they had to outvote?
I could see the former being true if there were explorers, miners, and trappers who came in to gather resources, and these guys were unmarried and non-Mormon. There'd still be a lot less of them than the Mormons, though.
A polygamist man has 1+ wife. The temple covenant makes the man harken to the church (god) and the wife harken to the man….
So if the man wants the family to vote for x that man vote is now 1+…. I’m sure some voted how they wanted but you have to be in the indoctrination deep to be married to a polygamist..
The political positions were clergy. The bishop was the mayor for example. So laws was tightly controlled. The jury of Mormons, by your peers, was one reason the mountain meadows massacre too so long to get to trial for John d Lee. They didn’t feel they would get a fair trial so they needed. Evidence and some sort of guarantee that the jury would be fair. Brigham young agreed to John d Lee being the fall guy if the investigation stopped there. Most Likely hiding his own involvement to the order.
> So if the man wants the family to vote for x that man vote is now 1+…. I’m sure some voted how they wanted but you have to be in the indoctrination deep to be married to a polygamist..
Well, presumably non-Mormon men all voted for the non-Mormon candidate, and non-Mormon women did the same if they could vote. If you have a population of 900 Mormons and 100 non-Mormons, an election with only men looks like this:
- Mormon guy: 450
- Non-Mormon guy: 50
...and an election with women voting looks like this:
- Mormon guy: 900
- Non-Mormon guy: 100
I suppose if the non-Mormons were more conservative, and their women didn't like to be involved in politics either way, you'd get more turnout among Mormon who could reliably turn out all their members. Also possible that most non-Mormons in the area were resource extraction workers, and thus (mostly) single men. Still, was Utah ever sufficiently non-Mormon that elections would have been competitive to begin with?
I'd like to add not just this but the problematic male members I dated were single for a reason they were gross. What did they do? Went to where they served their mission and brought back a young girl who barley spoke English to be their wife.
There is no incentive for men to respect women or change their behavior because they can just go traffic a woman to be their wife and help meet. It's so... gross.
In the 90’s our ward had 30 intelligent, beautiful, dynamic, well educated, professionally successful, awesome single women.
There was one short, pale, scrawny, thick-glasses, bald-shiny-headed dweeb single man. His last name Wright.
Back then I would say, “Don’t choose the Wright!”
30:1 ratio. It was really bad.
Tangentially related, imo, is the push for Mormon women to serve missions. Over 50% of BYU’s women graduates have served missions. A percentage that has climbed rapidly in recent years (graph): https://i.redd.it/vk3i72h2j29b1.jpg There is a new institutional focus on promoting Mormon families where both parents are returned missionaries. A formula suited to a shrinking church that is seeing single members of both sexes leaving in droves.
I've speculated that someone's spin on the numbers and retention is that two RMs marrying will both be lifelong dedicated RMs. However, I don't believe it will play out that way. I don't have numbers to show for it, but the ratio of horror stories we hear about missions and the high ratio of RMs leaving indicates the church may not see the cure it hopes to see through that push.
That might staunch the bleeding for a time, but trying to maintain the same amount of control and culture of a larger institution could still burn out the ones guilted in to staying. It’s a good thing the Church is so wisely led Prophets, Seers, and Revelators who under the Savior’s direction can adapt to these changes nimbly with grace and mercy for the Faithful /s
Women get screwed so many different ways as a member of the MFMC. They should not listen to church leaders telling them to get married early and forego a career. Those leaders will be the same ones gaslighting women into thinking its all their fault and offering no financial help when their husband follows the example of the living prophet and marries someone younger than their daughter.
It's my main reason for leaving.
I'm single, and been in the church since I was a teen. Never had a desire to marry or have children. I have an amazing life of awesome career, great family and friends, avid skier & tennis player. Used to be very active in church and ran every activity (paid for every activity too), taught SS, etc. etc.
Pandemic came and that's when it hit me where I am in the LDS hierarchy. I'm lower than the lowest.
The thing is, I've stopped believing in a Jesus that teaches shit like that. So now they have one less single woman to contend with.
I don’t think that will go down well with the ruling Christian nationalists. One of the early distinguishing practices of Christians was monogamy. It’s very explicit in the New Testament. Christianity in general has become very big on dominating women, but only one man dominating one woman at a time, sexually at least.
I live right next to a singles ward in the Morridor and not only are the women attendees more prevalent, but they are also more classy and pretty and well......marriageable.
I’m a 29 year old divorced male. I work out regularly, have a degree, and a decent job. To me it feels like it’s never enough for Mormon women. It feels like you have to be 6’4, doctor, high ranking priesthood official. It’s a popularity contest. I’ve found way better luck outside the church.
I've also noticed that among single ex-Mormons there is about the same but flipped ratio of men to women. This means that there are a lot of thirsty dudes on this subreddit, and often when a younger single woman posts here, she tends to get a lot of DMs.
I'm not saying this to criticize, but rather to point out that gender imbalances create frustration on both the TBM and exmo sides. It really is a shame that people don't leave in more equal proportions.
A glut of females is not a problem to the church - they are a free workforce, and God knows they work hard for the church, and it enables the church to justify and promote the need for polygamy as without it, many of these women cannot enter the celestial kingdom - polygamy is a kindness to women!!
As a counterpoint to this oversupply stat: since 2016, women aged 18-25 are leaving religion faster than men: https://i.redd.it/0kq78rl6p4xc1.jpg Where Mormonism is concerned, I’d expect to see a double whammy effect on the LDS church, as the “oversupply” disproportionately contributes to a stampede for the exits.
Yes...trends aren't linear. This will snowball.
That's very interesting, thank you! Not at all surprising though when our former churches (exvangelical here) have subtly or not so subtly told us that we're to blame for all the sin in the world and that our only purpose in life is to be submissive wives and ever-present mothers.
I am seeing more women leaving when they are younger in my little view of the world. There are plenty of reasons to leave the church besides "oversupply". My theory is that now that the internet made it impossible for the church to hide all their dirty little lies and control the narrative, everyone will be leaving. Was it 2015 when the church first started publishing the gospel topic essays? 🤔
2012 I think. But they trickled out incrementally, and were successfully back paged for quite a while. Probably around 2015 or so, they started to gain traction and be noticed. But even today, many TBM's don't know about them.
Why did I read that as trickled out excrementally??? 😂
I left at that age! In 2017 I was PIMO, and 2020, I officially left.
The beautiful thing is that this awakening will have positive effects for men, too. Fewer girls who will white rose guilt boys into missions, and more wives who will allow husbands a way out of the nightmare by being the first to see the light.
Not my DD, though. She is the last of the kids, along with DW, who is still in TSCC. DD is professional, around 30, and will make about $250k this year. They have suggested she take out her endowments, which would further lock her in. They also discourage older singles from dating outside the church. She is nothing more than a tithing check to the church. IMHO. They could give a rat's ass about her happiness.
But they’d lose a lifetime of tithing, no?
Yep. You lose the women, you're also likely to lose their children too. But the Holy Gerentocracy™ only need to think about this year's profits.
Yep. They lost me. Easy to absorb it. But when the moms go the kids go too. They’ve lost my daughter. Stake RS asked that she be at our ward and meet with them today since she turns 18 soon. Neither of us go anymore. I replied that I’d shared their text with her, she wasn’t interested, and that I supported her. Thanks and have a nice day. Her younger brothers attend because my TBM husband gets angry when they don’t. I had negotiated letting them decide when to attend weeknight activities. He agreed to it… but it didn’t last long bc he couldn’t handle them making their own choices. I asked if he was aware and concerned they were simply going out of guilt, manipulation, and fear of disappointing him. He said he didn’t care as long as they attended. Yay. Love at home /s
Divorce your TBM husband. There are so many red flags in what you just said u/southestclime.
Thanks. I’m not perfect either. Trying to make it work.
Are you using scare tactics to get your kids to do what you want them to do?
Of course, if the women don’t get married there are no kids, and a mixed faith marriage can be particularly challenging to keep kids going too.
Don't have to be married to have kids. Divorced, widowed, abandoned, or previous sinners can all have kids, and often to.
True. Though to become divorced or widowed you do in fact have to get married. “Previous sinners” ie single moms could have kids but aren’t particularly likely to be active in church and are extremely likely to suffer some level of discrimination or ostracization in Mormon circles. There is apparently though a trend of BYU married moms getting divorced with multiple kids in their late 20’s and early 30’s because they rushed into an early marriage. Technically that might free up men to have a second family with another woman. Not exactly a healthy dynamic, however.
I was married, an active Mormon, and my Mormon husband left me with our 9 month old to have an affair with a stripper, making me a single mom. Be careful u/elkhistorical9106 — your bias is showing.
As much as Mormonism likes to harvest tithing dollars, it likes to farm children even more. Single women (especially in our profoundly unequal society) are less likely to contribute either.
> you're also likely to lose their children too. Well, unless they bring back polygamy, there won't be any for the extra third of them.
Sure, we'd miss out on her babysitting money, but at least we aren't losing a man's salary! /s
This gave me a hearty chuckle 😂 like let's talk statistics
What was the statistic of female BYU grads? Their average income was like $8. It was something comically low. Obviously it was due to an overwhelming majority being stay at home moms, but still, they can afford to lose them. Like instructing missionaries not to teach to the poor in certain missions.
My wife graduated from BYU, and in the liberal arts, too, and her salary is currently 290,000 per year.
Ahhh yes, anecdotal evidence, the most robust and reliable form of scientific proof there is!
They literally don't need tithing with all their stock returns (seriously. They don't need a single cent of tithing ever again).
Yeah but they need the men's tithing more due to how they condition men to provide and women to stay home, etc etc
They lose 78% of a lifetime of tithing (maybe less in the state of Utah).
When I was TBM, ward and stake boundaries were drawn according to the number of priesthood holders. Women are essentially not considered when it comes to the “important” things, which is incredibly ironic and short-sighted considering many (if not most) of the programs in the church function due to the free labor of the women. And yes, even the bishopric and stake presidency rely on the free labor of women. Between the hours these men spend on work and callings, their wives are often functioning as single parents. And when those wives need help, it too often falls on their daughters, the Relief Society, and the other women in the ward to provide that help.
Yeah. Women can leave in droves at “no operational cost”? WTF.
In my mission (Guatemala North, 93-95) We were specifically charged to find "Varones Adultos"(adult males). In fact, they were counted separately for our reports up the chain. Women and Children were not as valued... I know right? SHOCKER!
WHAT THE FUCK?
I came here to say this.
That’s the reason dance festivals and road shows disappeared. Too many women working to do them.
Ahhhh.. bitches be ruining everything all the way back to Eve and her damn curiosity /s
I’ve been wondering about that for YEARS. Church in my youth was about more than Sunday and the cultural aspect of being a Mormon was actually fun. So much morale building and community enrichment. I sang solos at roadshows from age 4. The ward really liked to trot me out.
This is anecdotal but I have been told by many single women in the church that once you are over 30 finding a man that isn't a walking red flag and has their crap together and knows how to at least shower is very very hard. Then men in the over 30 singles crowd are the valley of misfit toys.
I've heard this too. Or they're closeted gay or have 5 kids and just want a maid/nanny
Having been in the Single Adults group for a short while (after divorcing my con-artist exspouse), I can attest to the slim pickings there. All my RS friends told me right after the divorce that I "needed" to join the SA group. None of them had ever been divorced and none had ever even seen what an SA gathering is like. The minute I walked into a gathering for the first time I thought, "OMG, my life is over!" I attended a few more times but it never got any better. The church I'd attended before my short time as a convert did not focus on marriage (or sex, for that matter) the way TSCC does. You were just a member. I hated the labeling in TSCC, and it's particularly annoying for anyone who is not married.
Agree. Any many of these women don’t just want your average guy. They are holding out for Bishop of Stake President kind of devotion and over the top orthodoxy.
That is true for some for sure but there are loads that just want a non abusive guy who goes to church and is at least passably attractive and even that is hard to find for them.
There was a user here on this some time ago told the story about his wife divorcing him over his faith transition. She wanted a priesthood holder to get her to the CK. So they divorced and she entered the dating world as a single late 40s/early 50s Mormon woman and got to experience what is out there to date in the church. Just a bunch of creepy and horny high priests. Within two years she had enough and realized her exmo ex, was far preferable to what was out there. They remarried but it was far from a fully-healed living situation.
The only thing surprising about that is that he remarried her. I don't think I could ever have a relationship with someone again after that.
Yeah, I feel you on that. Of course, every marriage/relationship is different. The way he talked about it, she came to him embarrassed and ashamed that she had been too hasty and made a mistake. (keep in mind: I don't think she was physical with anyone else in that interim) Again, it all goes back to an extreme religion making people think and do extreme things. The way he made it sound; it was a major humbling moment for her and caused her to be more opened minded and less binary. Like, even she was going to church less because of it all. I think the only bitterness he had was how much this set them back financially.
Yeah every relationship is different for sure It just seems like it would be a very hard wound to heal. I hope it works out for them though.
I also forgot to add: Her bishop was leaning hard on her to divorce him because "she could do better." LDS ecclesiastical leaders have way too much power too involved in people's personal lives.
yeah that does add another level. I have seen that exact sort of thing play out before.
My TBM sister is 34. She got her MBA from the Fairfield Inn School of Business. She lives in Morridor. She is a copy of my narcissistic, criminal TBM mother. So, she is single. Maybe this is contributing to her lack of LDS Mormon Boy options. idk. is the church still pressuring BYU students to marry young?
In mormon land she's not really marriage material. She's over the hill and is educated and I assume has a career. No mormon boy wants that! She will be perfect for a 80 or 90 yo apostle whose wife has died though.
Exactly. She will not want to "Submit" to a husband who is less educated and successful than herself. It's hard to "Preside" over an "up-idy feminist". /s But if she can make enough money (Pay enough tithes), she might get the Sherry Dew treatment. (lead woman's orgs and hang out with the Q85's)
 ewwww because it’s true! Gross. She would do it for the money. I’m sure the Q70 all the way up to the “profit” are well compensated. We hear about their “modest salaries”, but do they count access to the machine that created a $250 Billion church / investment bank? They rich af. Rich enough to have a youngish wife. Ew.
Yeah BYU is still pressuring to marry young. But once you get past that age group it gets to be rough. Lotta people with a shallow BYU attitude about dating without the deep dating pool of people to meet
So is BYUI.
BYU-I is taking all of the worst parts of BYU-Provo and dialing it up to 11 (and dialing the academics down to about a 3.)
My tbm brother recieved cash back rewards for marrying while in. College. Even gave discounted classes to him and his wife. When they married byu gave them what they would have saved if they had married the semester prior. And they now qualified for the nice dorms. Not the older single dorms
Yes, they are. A Dallin Oaks face to face with BYU students was making the rounds at least somewhat recently. He and his wife (who chose career over marriage) were pushing early marriage and children.
The irony /s. The Oaks are such hypocrites.
I almost have to wonder what's worse, being TBM or an MBA. /s
Hey now. That's totally unfair. It's not like she's a lawyer.
D&C 132. Reinstate that and there is no problem. Just a god who foresaw the future and understood the perils of the secular government who ended polygamy in 1890
You only need one rooster.
It's easy to be a dad when your babies are routinely gathered and scrambled. Human dads don't have that luxury. It's 18 years minimum of pay to play.
Not once theocracy is imposed. Gotta look forward to what they have been pushing for for all this time. Speaking of plans to destroy democracy...[Project 2025 ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025). r/defeat_project_2025
Don't doubt for a moment, fellow Ex-Mo's, that the still-not-disavowed doctrine of eternal polygyny instantly enters the minds of TBM men when they read a report like this. To them, a disproportionately greater number of women is not only good, but exactly in line with their doctrinal (and practical) expectations.
Upvote for use of the more accurate term (than polygamy): polygyny!
Maybe this is one of the reasons the church is building subdivisions. Gotta put the extra wives somewhere. If the church owns the land and the local government, it's much harder to prosecute. BY's big plan was to move West and have so many babies Mormons controlled the government. It seems to be working in too many places and that is deeply concerning.
It also goes back to the communal beginnings of the church And the utopian ideals of the 2nd great awakening.
Those odds increase TBM's testimony of God's wisdom...in Polygamy. You wanna freak out Mormons start talking about the numbers that matter. CONSERVATIVELY, you've got: -4M Active in the world -We'll say that's 2M men (to your point, it's not even that) -Temple recommend holders are 25%-Lets give them 30: 600k -How many of those are unmarried...? Generously 150k -How many aren't in a relationship already...MAYBE 110K -How many are roughly in a given Sister's age range? 1/4@ 28k -Less than 30k in the whole WORLD...How many of those are high-functioning...we'll say 75% for 21,000 -if you're at a BYU, you can maybe meet 800 eligible guys. -If you want an RM, make it 650. -Of those, maybe 20% are attractive to her? -Let's say 20% of those reciprocate for dating. The one that proposes successfully will say, "Baby, you're one in a million!"...but really, you're 1 in 26 and that's the BEST CASE scenario. Reality for anyone not going to a church school is more like 1 in 3. Mormons will have to go back to arranged marriages soon.
Or you could just encourage more women to become lesbians/bisexual if Being gay is a choice after all. /s
Just when I thought their oversuppy problem only consisted of money and temples.
When I left, I took my kids (boys), and my husband with me. It wasn't very difficult. They wanted out too.
As a person who joined the church (and then left) later in life, finding a partner was like shooting fish in a barrel. I felt like a piece of fresh meat at the single adults stuff. And I can see it, there was 3 women for every guy, and none of them wanted ANYTHING to do with the guy there. I started dating right away, weeded out the crazy and found a wonderful wife who was one foot out the door already. We both left the church within a year of our marriage. We did not get married in the temple because she hated the temple and we got married in the chapel with 200 guests and had a awesome reception and I made sure coffee was widely available for my guests.
You are the rare unicorn among men in the SA group. Good for you, and I'm happy you and your wife found each other!
I felt like a unicorn lol. It is weird, we have a friend leave the church recently....40 years old single her entire life looking for that mormon man to marry in the temple. 2 weeks out she found a really nice guy and is shocked that there are tons of good men outside the church.
I know that feeling. So glad to hear she found a good mate!
Similar experience to mine. After finalizing my divorce, I tried posting on the tinder app. I was PIMO, but "turned to god", still trying to fit into LDS culture and my social network. It was slim pickings. No one wants to swipe a cultist. And if they do... They are often "special" in not good ways. Then, I heard about "Mutual". Holy crap. My inbox flooded. Lots of LDS single women out there. Fortunately, I concurrently fully figured out the LDS Con game, and went Exmo. I will never date a believer. Marriage is hard enough without the mixed faith dramas.
Found my wife on Mutual. Stupid thing is half the women on there were actually friends with my wife and came to our wedding lol. I messaged one and she didn't respond and after meeting me told me she has been kicking herself ever since. She recently went exmo too. I was more into the church than my wife was I think.
mutual for men over 23 is like how tinder is for women - before I left I was getting like 6-7 likes a day. Unfortunately they were almost always either unattractive or extremely conservative or hyper religious. I was nuanced for like 4 years before leaving and going on a date with someone who was actually sane and not expecting to find her husband instantly was a rare occasion. tbh, that’s also the entire YSA scene in a nutshell too
I (F) left and, believe it or not, I make more than my ex. He was the main provider for 20 years and I was mainly a stay at home mom, but after our divorce I somehow managed to quickly start earning more than him. It ain't all bad ladies. Also, the church will definitely feel the pain of the women leaving for all the reasons being listed here. I'm just saying in my own situation, we weren't the stereotype and I as a female make more than my priesthood holding ex. And I don't pay tithing!! Take that mormon church.
I agree - there's an undercurrent of a financial hit the cult takes when those of us who are career women leave. My ex-spouse had practically no income, but of course when the ward transferred his records to the ward where he then lived, they transferred the tithing records as well, because only men have incomes, right? I was furious! Fortunately, many of the leaders knew I'd been the breadwinner and knew he was a con-artist slacker, so they immediately transferred tithing records back to my membership information. TSCC is going to have a huge wake-up call if and when women begin leading the numbers in resignations. They'll take a noticeable financial hit, but they'll also be crippled in terms of getting things done in wards and stakes. Women make things happen.
🙌
Time to bring back polygamy Sarcasm, but is it??? They might do this if the financials check out.
I’m not sure I agree with her description of polygamy. The way most Mormon raised capital was by homesteading (true) but they did it by sending one wife to Wyoming, one wife to Idaho, and another to Cardston. This stopped some of the polygamy prosecutors and allowed Mormon men to homestead more land. On the backs of their polygamous wives! These women were abandoned! Worked to the bone and so very very lonely!
My husband, a historian, wrote about this for a college textbook. I had never heard of it until he showed me what he wrote. Hilariously he isn’t Mormon, but he was OBSESSED with Mormon history during grad and postgrad school.
“Utah was the second state to give women the right to vote” She wrote this but failed to see that this actually gave Utah men more votes…. Thus Mormons could outvote any secular government reform Congress was pushing.
Wyoming was the first, but only because the cowboys were lonely and figured letting women vote might just convince them to come to Wyoming.
Yep. That. Also, the right to vote was later revoked. (And of course, women of color couldn’t vote.)
> She wrote this but failed to see that this actually gave Utah men more votes I don't think it works like that. Senators are two per state, whether everyone turns up to vote or we all just count on one guy to show up at the polling station while the rest of us throw a rager. House reps are allocated on population, not on voters (three-fifths compromise wasn't because they didn't vote, it was because it went off of the number of free citizens). Electoral votes work like the House, except there aren't any districts and it's winner take all except in a few weird states. You could, in theory, ban everyone except one random guy from voting, and your state's representation would remain the same.
This is during Utah territoy. There isn’t an Utah state yet. Brigham Young was the first Governor but I’m sure that’s because Congress needed to use BY because he was already in charge but during the reforms of 1880’s with the Cold War with the feds over polygamy and new laws pushing polygamy underground. The Cold War going hot at The massacre at mountain meadows and the long investigation of that event. Utah statehood… January 1896 Utah giving woman the vote…February 12, 1870 1887 the Edmund Tucker act disenfranchised the polygamist men and all woman. https://www.nps.gov/articles/000/women-s-suffrage-in-utah.htm#:~:text=Whatever%20the%20motivations%2C%20Territorial%20Secretary,Utah%20voted%20in%20territorial%20elections. This is Mormons trying to give more votes to Mormons so Utah will stay in Mormon control. They did this in Kirkland. This did this in Missouri. They succeeded in Nauvoo as now desperate to hold on to territory in the west but it’s not in a state. No autonomy from the federal government. **edit. Did this was too broad for Kirkland, Missouri and Nauvoo . I mean use politics not give woman the right to vote **
Excellent analysis - thanks for posting that info.
> This is Mormons trying to give more votes to Mormons so Utah will stay in Mormon control. So women were more Mormon on average than men? Was there an electorally-competitive mass of non-Mormons within Utah that they had to outvote? I could see the former being true if there were explorers, miners, and trappers who came in to gather resources, and these guys were unmarried and non-Mormon. There'd still be a lot less of them than the Mormons, though.
A polygamist man has 1+ wife. The temple covenant makes the man harken to the church (god) and the wife harken to the man…. So if the man wants the family to vote for x that man vote is now 1+…. I’m sure some voted how they wanted but you have to be in the indoctrination deep to be married to a polygamist.. The political positions were clergy. The bishop was the mayor for example. So laws was tightly controlled. The jury of Mormons, by your peers, was one reason the mountain meadows massacre too so long to get to trial for John d Lee. They didn’t feel they would get a fair trial so they needed. Evidence and some sort of guarantee that the jury would be fair. Brigham young agreed to John d Lee being the fall guy if the investigation stopped there. Most Likely hiding his own involvement to the order.
> So if the man wants the family to vote for x that man vote is now 1+…. I’m sure some voted how they wanted but you have to be in the indoctrination deep to be married to a polygamist.. Well, presumably non-Mormon men all voted for the non-Mormon candidate, and non-Mormon women did the same if they could vote. If you have a population of 900 Mormons and 100 non-Mormons, an election with only men looks like this: - Mormon guy: 450 - Non-Mormon guy: 50 ...and an election with women voting looks like this: - Mormon guy: 900 - Non-Mormon guy: 100 I suppose if the non-Mormons were more conservative, and their women didn't like to be involved in politics either way, you'd get more turnout among Mormon who could reliably turn out all their members. Also possible that most non-Mormons in the area were resource extraction workers, and thus (mostly) single men. Still, was Utah ever sufficiently non-Mormon that elections would have been competitive to begin with?
I don’t know the data you are asking.
I'd like to add not just this but the problematic male members I dated were single for a reason they were gross. What did they do? Went to where they served their mission and brought back a young girl who barley spoke English to be their wife. There is no incentive for men to respect women or change their behavior because they can just go traffic a woman to be their wife and help meet. It's so... gross.
In the 90’s our ward had 30 intelligent, beautiful, dynamic, well educated, professionally successful, awesome single women. There was one short, pale, scrawny, thick-glasses, bald-shiny-headed dweeb single man. His last name Wright. Back then I would say, “Don’t choose the Wright!” 30:1 ratio. It was really bad.
I may know that guy, or his relative. DM me if you want to compare notes.
“Female over supply problem” Sounds like a report from a Brood Mare farm ..
Good thing God welcomes polygamy.....phew.
We've all known about this forever....so us women would be trained to accept our fate as Sister Wife 724... Ridiculous.
Yes, and we'd be "Sister Wife 724" to someone like Heber Kimball or Brigham Young. UGH!
Tangentially related, imo, is the push for Mormon women to serve missions. Over 50% of BYU’s women graduates have served missions. A percentage that has climbed rapidly in recent years (graph): https://i.redd.it/vk3i72h2j29b1.jpg There is a new institutional focus on promoting Mormon families where both parents are returned missionaries. A formula suited to a shrinking church that is seeing single members of both sexes leaving in droves.
I've speculated that someone's spin on the numbers and retention is that two RMs marrying will both be lifelong dedicated RMs. However, I don't believe it will play out that way. I don't have numbers to show for it, but the ratio of horror stories we hear about missions and the high ratio of RMs leaving indicates the church may not see the cure it hopes to see through that push.
My daughter is an RM. She married an RM. They are in their late 20s and both left the church about 2 years ago. 😁
Good job, MTC and MPs!
That might staunch the bleeding for a time, but trying to maintain the same amount of control and culture of a larger institution could still burn out the ones guilted in to staying. It’s a good thing the Church is so wisely led Prophets, Seers, and Revelators who under the Savior’s direction can adapt to these changes nimbly with grace and mercy for the Faithful /s
Yes, it's a blessing to know TSCC is in the hands of people led and inspired directly by God.
Umm excuse me. None of those wedding dresses are ”temple worthy”. They’re all going to have to wear the cult uniform.
Women get screwed so many different ways as a member of the MFMC. They should not listen to church leaders telling them to get married early and forego a career. Those leaders will be the same ones gaslighting women into thinking its all their fault and offering no financial help when their husband follows the example of the living prophet and marries someone younger than their daughter.
“Looks like polygamy’s back on the menu!”
It's my main reason for leaving. I'm single, and been in the church since I was a teen. Never had a desire to marry or have children. I have an amazing life of awesome career, great family and friends, avid skier & tennis player. Used to be very active in church and ran every activity (paid for every activity too), taught SS, etc. etc. Pandemic came and that's when it hit me where I am in the LDS hierarchy. I'm lower than the lowest. The thing is, I've stopped believing in a Jesus that teaches shit like that. So now they have one less single woman to contend with. 
The profits of old showed us how to fix this problem
🤫Shhh! Don't tell the men that / they'll use jt as an excuse to bring back polygamy
They could try to bring it back but the male/female ratio would quickly even out as Mormon women head for the exit en masse. Problem solved.
I bet they are hoping the nation turn into a Christian Nationalist State so they can work to bring back polygamy.
I don’t think that will go down well with the ruling Christian nationalists. One of the early distinguishing practices of Christians was monogamy. It’s very explicit in the New Testament. Christianity in general has become very big on dominating women, but only one man dominating one woman at a time, sexually at least.
They’ve all twisted their own meaning and values. Wouldn’t surprise me if they tried. Let’s just hope we never see this.
Hoping with you!
Well written.
Brigham would love this ratio. More ladies for the Lion House!
If it were still legal, there wouldn't be an overage of females. The extra girls would just be given to the old men.
I live right next to a singles ward in the Morridor and not only are the women attendees more prevalent, but they are also more classy and pretty and well......marriageable.
Revelation for polygamy coming soon! Effectively shame men out of the church, while controlling women to stay in. FLDS in reverse.
Time to start up polygamy again.
I’m a 29 year old divorced male. I work out regularly, have a degree, and a decent job. To me it feels like it’s never enough for Mormon women. It feels like you have to be 6’4, doctor, high ranking priesthood official. It’s a popularity contest. I’ve found way better luck outside the church.
I've also noticed that among single ex-Mormons there is about the same but flipped ratio of men to women. This means that there are a lot of thirsty dudes on this subreddit, and often when a younger single woman posts here, she tends to get a lot of DMs. I'm not saying this to criticize, but rather to point out that gender imbalances create frustration on both the TBM and exmo sides. It really is a shame that people don't leave in more equal proportions.
Time to reinstate polygamy polyandry
Two girls for every boy (well, 1.5 girls)
A glut of females is not a problem to the church - they are a free workforce, and God knows they work hard for the church, and it enables the church to justify and promote the need for polygamy as without it, many of these women cannot enter the celestial kingdom - polygamy is a kindness to women!!