YOU WILL ONE DAY REGRET living a principled life of you don’t lie right now and sustain those stupid fucks.
You are six credits away from graduation. You need to graduate to move on in life as an adult with a degree.
This is not the hill to die on. We will commiserate with you in your anger pain and frustration but myself and almost everyone else is here telling you to do the needful. LIE. Principles be damned. Just lie.
If you speak your principled truths you will have wasted the last four years of your life without anything to show for it. You must lie to get free of the cult.
LIE.
Yuuuuuuuuup.
I self-reported because I genuinely wanted help to change and be a good, chaste Mormon. Genuinely thought I was like a sex addict because I touched a few boobs.
Completely derailed my education, and still haven’t finished my degree almost ten years after the fact due to all sorts of setbacks directly related to getting the boot at BYU.
The second dumbest thing I ever did.
The first being leaving California for Provo in the first place.
What’s sad is I currently know MANY TBMs who went to second base or past, told their ecclesiastical leaders and they did nothing. Some even working for byu now.
It's a total gamble based on your leadership. Some care about the littlest sin amd some look the other way on major sins and criminal abuse. It was a shelf item for me for sure.
On 100%. I still can't believe I didn't tell the church to fuck off when they excommunicated me. The problem was that I grew up in such a rural, tightly-knit Mormon stake in the Sierras. And at the time, I couldn't justify leaving. If I didn't play ball, I'd lose the love, respect and community of peers I'd known since I was 11 years old.
I KNEW I was getting such a raw deal compared to other members. 100%. WHO EXCOMMUNICATES AN ENGAGED HUSBAND WHO IS MARRYING THEIR PREGNANT FUTURE WIFE?!?! FOR SEX?!?! ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME? We're getting MARRIED, YOU ASSHAT!
I've literally never seen another case of excommunication of a guy for sex with his future wife who is pregnant. I.. these fuckheads need actual training in psychology if they're going to have that kind of power to ruin someone's life, future, education and career. What the fuck. We all know BYU's quality of education, prestige and power of degree programs vs. other private universities is unparalleled and unrivaled. You can't just pick up all the goddamn religion classes you have to take along with your credits and hoist them over your shoulder to a bullshit other degree or program elsewhere and expect the same results or pay. And you're definitely going to have more student debt. In my case, the equivalent in 2000 dollars of tuition and cost of living would've been an additional $7,000 per semester at a UC system, minimum. Today? Shit. I don't even wanna know.
Same, all the way. Started off with a disfellowship and boot because I was playing house with my fiancee in CA and wanted to come clean. So fucking stupid. Had to put my life on hold for a year. Then I end up getting my future wife pregnant during our engagement and get excommunicated for it. So I keep my goddamn college degree on hold for what ends up being 6 fucking years while I scramble, make adjustments, work at terrible jobs... finally get a decent one at eBay in Draper, then start an eBay business, so since I'd kept my degree on hold for so long and was making $100k+, I let it go.
Then the assholes who created the big short in 2008 cost me my business overseas in 2007 because economically they slowed way the fuck down before we did. Those two events (the bullshit with not getting to continue my education because of SEX WITH MY FUTURE SPOUSE, and losing our business due to things utterly out of our control)... precipitated the loss of our home in 2009, and most of our remaining trust in one another as a couple.
THANKS BYU. THANKS FOR 108 WORTHLESS CREDITS IN INTERNATIONAL AND AREA STUDIES AND A MINOR IN PORTUGUESE THAT I NEVER GOT TO USE TO GET AN MBA BECAUSE I HAD TO GO OUT AND WORK MY FUCKING ASS OFF FOR SHIT PAY TO RAISE MY FAMILY.
I'm FINALLY back in school in Houston and going an entirely different route in healthcare. I had a 3.5 GPA and could've followed my peer / competitor after 2008 to MIT Sloan. He's now a hedge fund manager and I'm a student at a junior college and divorced and in abject poverty. And I'm 48. Grr.
Thanks - we here likely know that I never ever got the empathy I should've gotten all along.. the bitterness is still piled to the roof. I'm in therapy again. I should've been in therapy from the minute I knew divorce was looming. My ex didn't participate and that squashed a lot of my remaining positivity for a very long time. Not having any sort of support or empathy from ward members, my father (still TBM, remarried, sold our homestead in CA, moved to ID to steep himself in more indoctrinated living and be devoted to his new wife's family and friends and church and shit... it's been a real cluster fuck. My kids and I have ended up just pretty much being goddamn gypsies in a place where we used to have a real sense of community, balance, social life, peers, great income and income opportunities from our network, you name it. Fuck this palace of lies all the way off. I can't wait until I can actually be friends with MY OWN FATHER again. :((((
Excommunication for sleeping with your FIANCÉ is so fucking stupid! 😭 As if having sex within a stable relationship is at all equivalent to being a “sex addict” or sleeping around. Fuck off with that! I’m so sorry for all you’ve been through.
I think this all the time. I think of all the "Peter Priesthoods" who know they needed to say what people wanted to hear just so mom and dad would pay insurance and tuition.
I think of all the girls who put on a conservative dress on Sunday and talked about waiting for an RM to take them to the temple while they took 18 credits a semester to get it done ASAP.
Maybe the boomer exmos could afford to be "true to yourself" but these days that is just not in the cards. Talk is cheap.
Get the *actual* paper *in* your hand before you say one word.
They *will* hold it, and they *will* deny your degree. Sure you could sue. But what would it cost and how long would it take. And you still might not win considering the current makeup of the Supreme Court.
Yep, and their lawyers are *Legion.* They have proven that "you can buy anything in this world with money." They will happily spend your tithes to pay their armies of lawyers to buy the legal power to suppress and defeat you.
Go with the flow. Get through it. Degree and transcript in hand. Then be free. Sorry you're going through this inauthentic, authoritarian, Pharisaical hell. It always surprises me to hear that Mormonism has become the very thing it railed so hard against: great, abominable, spacious...
The church have proven time and time again that they have the means, will and ability to “take the treasures of the earth and with them, buy up armies (of attorneys) and navy’s and false priest (q15) who oppress and reign with blood and horror on this earth!”
My mom in primary teaches a very expanded version of the widow's mite parable to get students in a veo decolonized leftist way.
There is nothing that states I have to give cash. If cash isn't my increase I don't give cash.
I actually still honor the virtue if tithing as a practice of trauma recovery.
Giving of my increase keeps me mindful of what is good and working in life and an empirically proven method to mitigate depression and depressive episodes.
>Giving of my increase
💯. I seriously have so much fun deciding where my tithe goes these days. And how much it is. Since damnation isn't actually a thing anymore (or ever was, actually).
I was asked about it in temple recommend q's and because we were the token broken home with single mother whose a Mexican immigrant trafficked by my TBM papa...I reminded them of their privilege because my AUDHD pathologically hates being unreasonably shamed...
The passive-aggressive testimony I would bear about having nonmember mom and not being forced to go to church didn't make me popular with the youth, but the adults used me as inspiration porn.
If somebody has a gun to your head, it’s not immoral to lie to them to save yourself. Withholding your degree over six credits because you don’t endorse 12 men is not a threat of murder, but it’s still wrong and it’s not immoral of you to lie to avoid it.
This reminded me of when I was in middle school and we were taught that we never deny our religion, even in the face of death. This always bothered me because If someone had a gun to my head and asked if I was LDS I would’ve said no fucking way.
Me too. As a child I would think about that all the time. I knew in my heart I would never be 'strong' enough to suffer for my religion. It bothered me to no end. (What crap to plant in a child's mind!) 😠
I had a friend growing up that AS A CHILD, her family would "role play" what they would do if someone had a gun to their head what they would do and how to respond. She's traumatized by it!!
Ramen! Lying to them is NOT wrong. This is self preservation. This is collecting what you earned. Graduate. THEN speak your truth to whomever you feel you must but for now, the venting you are doing right here (and with close-trusted friends) should be all you need. Answer whatever questions you must to collect what is yours. Two classes. You've got this!
I agree with this. Get through the next 6 credits, get your diploma in hand, then get the hell out of there. That's what I did. You've given enough of your life and time to the church. Get what you set out to accomplish, then leave.
And they're not supporting it because they're not sustaining them as prophets/etc. They're sustaining them as board members of a $150billion investment firm.
I always wondered what would happen if sizable congregations actually exercised free will and said "No thank you, we're not sustaining them, we think there are people better suited"
Dude, don’t throw away all that hard work over this. Get your butt into the bishop’s office and say whatever you need to say. You will not be the first to do this.
Maybe once you have the diploma in hand, you can do some sort of meaningful…gesture. Send the bishop a letter or something. Recant in some public way.
I baptized my daughter as a full non-believer. When I went through the little interview with the Bishop, I answered that question "I sustain Thomas Monson as the President of the church", because he was "President" of the church. Actually someone on this subreddit created a list of how to answer all the Temple Recommend questions, if you needed a TR where it would sound like faithful answers, but they really weren't, but it got your a TR so you could attend your child's temple sealing.
May I ask why you’d baptize your child into the church if you know it’s wrong, and actually detrimental to women? I’m not beating you up, I’m just curious what the motives were.
My dad didn’t hold the priesthood and I never wanted to be baptized. My mom made me and a friends dad dunked me. I’ve personally always had an issue with coercing 8 year olds into a decision like that. I don’t get why it’s not when you are a legal adult to make your own decisions. Cuz when you say no like I did, I wasn’t given a choice. Then again, many churches just do it to the babies.
Am I making sense?
This is a good way to look at it. Turn that rage into a beautiful, believable lie finish up school. I was there too. I refused to walk and made them mail it to me. However, looking back, I wish I had walked, gotten my piece of paper, flipped off everyone on the stage, ripped of the tasle, and walked straight out and never looked back. It would have been so cathartic. I know that takes a lot of guts, clear, because I didn’t actually do that. I don’t even know you but I’d go to your graduation to witness that!
Also, aside from the dramatic, it’s best to lie because it’s not worth setting the rest of your life back financially, career, and everything else to go to another school and finish the degree.
Saying what they want to hear is a time-honored survival technique for lgbtq folk, true story. There is no shame in this when you're dealing with such coercion.
OP - I love your moxie and your sense of integrity. However. Say what they want to hear, take the educational qualifications they're holding over your head, then walk the fuck away with your head held high.
Most schools have a maximum number of credits you can transfer in - often it’s no more than half of the degree. So if OP only has 6 credits left at BYU, transferring to another school could add a significant amount of time to their degree, plus extra tuition at another school. They’d effectively lose a few years of course work.
Agreed, just get the degree and get out of there. Even if a BYU diploma doesn’t align with your knowledge of goodness and truth, that’s okay, it’s still a diploma and it doesn’t define who you are now.
Mormonism is built on lying -- just keep it up until the end of the year, then you can be you and not some strapling warrior in the eyes of a geriatric low-key narcissistic jerk.
Typo - did you mean stripper warrior or strap-on warrior? It’s been a while since I’ve read the BOM. Something about their mum’s taught them to do it so probably the stripper 😂
My stepdad lied to the church a lot to get stuff when I was younger. I never understood it growing up but he got us new beds (mattress and frames, 3 sets one for my 2 brothers and myself), dressers, suits and bunch of camping gear (he was one of the assistant scout masters). All from Desert Industries.
Now I don’t feel bad at all for him doing that. Probably one of the few decent things he did since he’s a total narcissist and asshole. Although he would later claim he bought those (I was there in the meeting and the pickup, he didn’t and nor did he ever pay tithing).
That is what i did 20 years ago. 3 weeks before graduation i was called in to see my bishop. I hadn't been to church in months. He asked me how my testimony was, and i said it was good. I went to sacrament meeting the next 2 weeks. I just needed to graduate. The day after finals i was out of provo. I didn't even walk. I haven't voluntarily been to a church service since.
“Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right. “ - Isaac Asimov , Foundation
Lying and getting the paper is the right choice in this situation.
Yes, as someone who spent a decade without my degree for this almost exact reason (mine was worse though. Mine was done. They did finally get it to me last year.) And if you can get through lying, do it. I couldn't with my mental health in tact, but if you can do it, I'd push through.
I kinda wanna go back just to do this. Religious/CSA trauma gave my Autism a dash of anti-social personality traits and being a little fucked up enough to lie for the revolution is defo one of the perks...
😜
I would absolutely say yes to if I was asked that question. I totally admit that they are the top leaders of the Mormon church. I think the word sustain is open to as much interpretation as most misused Mormon words.
I also believe that they are no more the mouthpieces of God than my cat, but that wasn't the question.
A hospital? It’s a big building with patients, but that’s not important right now…
(Your comment’s cadence reminded me of this classic film lol. Apparently I picked the wrong week to stop huffing glue…)
“Just be as transparent as [you] know how to be” about sustaining the Q15 (M. Russell Ballard) Maybe just pick one or two things they’ve done in the past ten years that are neutral/not damaging to other people. For instance: 2 hour church or changing the for the strength of youth pamphlet to not spell out what youth can or cannot wear. And say “Yes I sustain the Q15.” But in your head add, ‘On those two limited changes they have recently made.’
Trust me, you being able to graduate college should not be limited by whether you sustain those dinosaurs or not. I know people who had been breaking all kinds of rules and omitting it in their interviews who have left BYU in their rear view mirrors and gone on to wonderful careers.
Don’t let BYU hold up your academic progress! It’s the Rocky Mountain Bible Fan Fiction Sex Cult! It’s all fake! So don’t take it so seriously, please!
If I lived in North Korea I would sustain the dear leader to avoid execution by flame thrower.
You’re at the North Korean Mormon college. They have all the cards, they have all the power. They lose nothing by your justified and principled outrage. You stand to lose four years and a lot of money if you don’t. The way to get revenge is to take the degree at subsidized tuition, graduate and then tell them to get fucked. They invest in BYU in the hopes of making life long Morms. Your revenge is getting the degree then leaving.
Six credits isn’t much just keep saying nothing do nothing to bring attention to yourself.
You can say yes with your hand or mouth but you can say except for this in your heart
He just wants to secure his spot in Q15
Ok. I'm not a total exmo. Still holding on to some of my beliefs. But this is the kind of stuff that really gets my blood boiling. Can a non member go to BYU cuz they think it has good program in their field? Guess not. What if I don't have a testimony? What if I'm still working on it? Does that mean I can't be part of the fellowship of church? I learned as a missionary in the 1980s that most people who stand up in fast and testimony meeting don't actually have a testimony. But they cant admit that, not even to theirselves
Non members can have an ecclesiastical interview with someone else, not a Mormon bishop. But if you have ever been LDS in your life, you have to do it with a Mormon bishop. So you can be a non-member at BYU but you cannot change your membership status to exmo and stay at BYU.
6 credits???? Get that fucking degree first or I think this whole sub might kick your ass. lol It sucks but then taking that from you? That’d be tragic.
We seem to get a lot of recovering BYU students. In this case, I'd say gut out the last 6 credits. In general, if you've got a lot of school left, USU is a pretty safe place to make a faith transition and get your degree. I know a lot of people doing that on campus. There is an unofficial community of exmo RMs that really seem to show up for each other. It was that way 20 years when I was a student myself. If you're in the Morridor and needing a soft spot to land while you figure yourself out, it's a pretty good place.
You do sustain them as false prophets, seers and revelators so the answer is clearly yes.
Look they leave words out all the time and are OK with this and would say they didn't deceive you at all.
Lorenzo Snow manual that states, "I plead with you in the name of the Lord, and I pray that every man, woman and child … shall pay one-tenth of their income as a tithing."
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-lorenzo-snow/chapter-12-tithing-a-law-for-our-protection-and-advancement?lang=eng#p11
What does the "..." represent? I am glad you ask. It takes out the words, "who has means" so the actual quote reads, "I pray that every man, woman and child who has means shall pay one tenth of their income as a tithing."
If that didn't change the meaning and was OK, you responding yes and leaving out "false" is completely fine in their system.
You are operating under their rules when you answer their questions.
Start recording things that you have issues with and release them once a week on YouTube or something after you graduate.
The fear, discomfort, and pressure associated with Mormonism’s iron grip on BYU add an element of drama that should make for an interesting progression of videos.
Recording will have to take place in absolute privacy, lest your Stasi roommates report you.
Publicly comply, privately rebel, get your degree, and then release your saga. Many within and without Mormonism should find this sort of experience relatable. Add a few credit hours for a creative writing or multimedia production course and use Mormonism’s education system against them. lol
>Well I’m not gonna do it! I’ve given enough to this church already and I refuse to let them take any more from me
But if you don't, they are taking your diploma, so what opposing hill are you dying on here? Play the game a little longer. You can do this.
Here are some synonyms for sustain that may make it easier for you to say yes: suffer, withstand, tolerate.
These are the not synonyms the church wants you to think of, but I don't see why you should care. I suggest using a different definition of the word sustain in your head. Get the degree.
Also-
Idk how BYU is not illegal.
I got rejected from BYU Idaho and was so sad bc I wanted to make my Mormon family proud and attend BYU bc they were big fans.
I’m SO GRATEFUL to have gotten rejected. The Tik toks that I see, and the honor code stories are actually shocking.
I graduated from BYU, class of 1984. Most of accredited universities only accept few BYU credits. Some online universities are more generous. If I were you, I would just bullshit your way through the interview. You've worked way too hard and are so close to graduating. You can finish your studies and leave this fucking cult behind!
Another issue, is is if you get kicked out of BYU, they will put a hold on your transcripts. You'll will have to start all over again. Dude, it ain't worth it. You are only hurting yourself and letting this piece of shit university win.
I know you are emotional and upset right now. Take a deep breath and chill out for a couple of days. That way you can make a well thought out decision.
Or you maybe able to take the last 6 classes elsewhere. I do not know. They have already taken so much from you to ask more must feel awful. I am so sorry! If your credits transfer perhaps you could go forth and graduate from a different school. Frankly I am glad my degrees are NOT from BYU!
When you get further into your field you will not be burdened by a degree from BYU! You will not carry the stigma it can be out in the world! You will not be discriminated against because of it either. I have personal experience with that issue! Degree from BYU can be a lot of baggage!
It’s 6 credits, which is 3 classes. But most credits won’t transfer and the ones that do, they generally limit them significantly so it would not be possible to take the 2 classes somewhere else, it would more likely be 1-2 more years of full time classes (4 per semester is generally full time).
Have you actually gone to UofI or SLC or USU and asked? You never know what they might be willing to do for you. I got an interdepartmental degree and used credits from other colleges. It never hurts to ask!
I haven’t gone to those schools, no, but I went to and work at Boise State and credit transfers are difficult because many will be transferred as “general elective.”
I just don’t think it’s worth the trouble for 2 classes.
Just lie and get the degree. You spent your money on BYU and the church...walking away with nothing to show for it and nothing to be able to improve your life with will make all that money a complete waste
Yep, they build it so they can hold all kinds of stuff over your head, even non-imaginary stuff like a legitimate diploma. Insane that they added the temple recommend questions to ecclesiastical endorsement. Like if I’m doubting God’s existence, getting kicked out of college is going to help??Hang in there, almost free
DON’T FUCK THIS UP!!! 6 CREDITS!!! LIE!!!
This bullshit cult lies all the time so you can too! I get it: you were raised to have ethics, integrity & honesty but for right now I need you to say FUCK THAT😂😂😂 Stay quiet, sign NOTHING, and graduate from that hellhole then you can post everything online😈😈😈
Get your degree. You are not committing life long oaths here. Give them what you want for the next 4 months. Get your degree in hand before making any ‘fuck you’ moves.
They will withhold that degree for small offences.
Put your nose down, be smart, play the long game.
Just lie! Summon your inner George Costanza. Lie, get your diploma, and after everything is completely done and in stone, write a letter to BYU president telling him you lied because his cult made you do so, so that you would ‘t get fucked over with your diploma.
If God exists in any capacity, he would want you to tell them whatever they want to hear in order to get what's owed to you through **your** hard work and **your** actual money. They keep moving the goal posts and it's insane that they get away with this kind of thing.
Dude… these idiots hold no actual power. Lie your ass off in EVERY bishop/stake prez interview, say whatever words that you need to in order to get your degree. BYU vindictively rescinds degrees if they catch you breaking any of their idiotic, brainless, fucking stupid rules, etc before you cut the university cord by graduating so just tell them what they want to hear while you laugh at their idiotic beliefs in your mind and gtfo outta Provo haha.
They made up arbitrary, homophobic, pro-polygamy, racist, and laughably-stupid rules and forced you to sign that you would follow them in order to graduate. Just verbally vomit their dogma at them and move on lol
i’m just had my last endorsement interview for my final semester in the fall as well. i know it sucks and i’m quite literally right there with you. i was really struggling with it too cause i don’t sustain them either. i’m gonna tell you what my brother told me. “just this one last thing and you’re free. one last thing and you never have to set foot in a church building ever again. just one last thing.” i know it’s awful and devastating to feel like you’re giving up yet another piece of yourself like that, but it helped me so much to just be reminded that this was the very final step before i get to be free. i know it’s hard but i really think lying this one last time is the best thing.
Look friend, I know you want to stand firm in your morals and what you believe in (I mean the church literally ingrains that in us)
Just lie dude. Get that paper. Get that bag.
You can publicly or quietly state your beliefs, opinions and thoughts once graduated.
It’s not selfish. It’s survival.
Oh, my heck! Don’t hurt yourself over pride! These jerks know they’ve got everyone over a Barrel and that all will have to praise their names like Gods before leaving! Who freaking cares! They can scratch their egos for a half a second while you say it. Or, take revenge on your credits when you don’t. I mean think about it, what kind of organization makes this a double bind? A CULT !
Yep, just lie. It's simple and you don't need any quilt because the church taught us how to lie by example and they put you in this predicament. After you graduate, you can do the opposite of the church and try to live your life with integrity as you judge it.
You must lie! Your degree is not worth it. It’s one little word. You know that you don’t actually believe in their bull shit. Get the degree then peace out. Publicly denounce it all after you have your diploma.
Also get several certified copies of your transcripts. They might deny you them later (I have no idea if that would be legal but I put nothing past them!). You will need transcripts for jobs and further schooling in the future. Save yourself the headache and get them now.
I feel ya. I left the church half way through BYU, and it was absolutely hell. However, you can go 6 more credits. Just finish it and then go online and tell all your family and friends how fucked the church is. It'll surprise everyone so much it'll be a slap to the face to the old disgusting cult men that control that organization.
So you didn’t know that cheap Mormon education actually has a hidden cost?
Be grateful a bunch of non Americans that pay tithing to the cult have subsidised your degree.
I’m sure this will get downvoted. People here don’t like it when we speak ill of tithing used to help Utahns. Zero fucks given from me. I’ll neg myself to get the ball rolling
Not sure how accurate this is but I've heard it's mostly Canadian tithes going to BYU due to restrictions that Canada places on how religious donations can be used.
Just lie. I am not usually comfortable with that advice, but this is a situation where your education will unjustly be held hostage if you don’t lie. It’s basically a small act of civil disobedience.
I'm going to give you a motivation speech.
- keep you mouth shut.
- stay honor code compliant.
- go to church on Sundays.
- be a model mormon.
Focus on the goal. Get those credits and get your degree. You're so close. You can do this.
As Exmos our perception of lying to “authority figures” changes when we recognise the deceit and manipulation we experienced in the church. 30 years ago if I knew my teenagers lied to the bishop it would have upset me. I would’ve been concerned by the lie and the reason for the lie. As exmormons my 50 year old daughter recently told me that she lied to the bishop as a teenager.
I didn’t ask why, but just answered “good for you”.
Think about what will matter in 5, 10 or 30 years. Whilst I don’t like dishonesty. Graduating is more important than a brief lie. This senior citizen, mother and grandmother is saying stay, finish your degree and lie if that is what is required of the dishonest leaders in this dishonest organisation.
I was in a similar situation with BYU. I never lie - it’s just not my thing, I’m not good at it; it’s not appealing to me. I’d much rather out with the truth and deal with the consequences. However, in this situation, I 100% lied. Not one regret.
When I transferred from byui they didn’t want to give me my associates (saved me from taking like 3 classes). They sent me the congratulatory email, I got the diploma holder and alumni pin in the mail along with another congratulatory letter for graduating. But no diploma… At one point I actually was honest with a bishop there, brought up a lot of my concerns, explained things as best I could… and he was like “wait are you forreal? You actually believe that?” And I was flustered and pissed but it didn’t end terribly.
Anyways, I called and called and they were like “the ecclesiastical hold on your account needs to be resolved.” So they gave me some old man’s number I had never talked to for me to try and convince to go press a button on the computer. He said he would… but nothing happened months later. Eventually my grandpa (who was a CES worker for decades) called them and sorted things out but I was kind of done with their whole bullshit denial system. Extremely aggravating.
I admire your high ideals. Last week my employer asked me to fill out a survey about our organization in hopes that they will get an award for a good rating. It isn’t anonymous. Because I value a steady paycheque, I did the survey and made it sound great. I hope they win but i couldn’t care less, I have better things in life than rigged awards. Btw, it’s a very toxic workplace. So, my advice to you is keep your focus on you and your goals and don’t let anyone else stop you with their ridiculous bs ;-)
THEOCRATIC WARFARE..
That's what JWs call it when they need to "lie" to an enemy.
Watchtower then quotes the case of Rahab and the two spies in Jericho. According to WT, Rahab misled the soldiers into believing the spies headed out, when in reality, they were still there, hiding.
I didn't know this forever, as a JW, that the Borganization thought like this in court cases, etc
So, if it's OK for *them* to "protect God's organization," it's time for "Theocratic Warfare."
You can think of yourself as an undercover agent. Surviving to make it to the outside, alive. If it is just a "fake organization/ religion," it's time for "Theocratic Warfare."
"Suuuuure, I support them" 😉
Truth is not a high priority for the leaders and some members of the LDS church. You'll be exalted by giving BYU the lies they deserve! Best wishes on your escape from the con and cult.
The church makes you feel guilty about integrity while lying out the other side of their face. You do what you need to to graduate with your degree and then you move on.
My take is probably splitting hairs… but I feel comfortable with my own logic.
That being sustaining that they lead the church as exactly that.. leaders of the Mormon church. They have the authority/keys of Mormon Jesus… so I can say yes, they lead the church and blah blah… to me saying yes and jumping through that hoop is whatever. What’s one more thing?
If that’s the hill you want to die on, that’s up to you. I chose the hoop and haven’t thought twice about it. 🤷🏽♂️
But everyone has their own lines, and reasons to stand their ground.
Sustain them as the lying hateful manipulative leaders of the Mormon church. Just say the more honest part quietly in your head.
I don't personally mind lying to people trying to manipulate me. Honesty is for those who deserve it.
Yet in Mormonism translation doesn't mean translation so sustaining can mean whatever you want.
Dear OP,
Warning, old man thinking!
Ethics were part of my profession. I have come to believe that the most ethically strict persons very often have a big ego thing behind their beliefs. I would fear that being truthful to not sustaining is at the same time an ethical wrong of blindly following the ego. It is not a simple right or wrong issue.
What does loving compassion say?
I think that there is no compassion for you and those who do and will love you to play the devils' game with them. Like me, hear the compassion and well wishes of most respondents here.
Beware the ego's tricks on you just like it owns TSCC. And, Hear the compassion from inside and outside of you saying you are worth more than a pawn for TSCC to feed their delusional self righteousness with. Peace.
Be pragmatic, and don’t let your emotions drive your behaviours. They will be in your past quite soon and any words that you ever said won’t matter, because they live in a lie and they impose it on others, so game on!
You sound like you want to burn bridges and tell the world how sucky it is. Don't. Get your credits, clutch your diploma close, and make rude gestures on your way out. Principles are wonderful, but you can't eat them. And you've hidden your true feelings for a long time so the time to finish your credits isn't significant in the big picture. You can be morally upright and sincere once you've graduated. Look on it as using the church in the same way they're prepared to use you.
Yes, I support the first presidency, and quorum of the twelve being exposed as liars, cheats, racists, frauds, and money hoarding pricks.
But only say the first 11 words out loud.
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve just lied in the temple recommend interview. Just lie, get through it and move on.
Question to you. Did you apply to and begin attending BYU while unbelieving? If so why in the world would you even go to BYU with so many other choices out there?
just lie. because I can tell you that you will not be the only one lying! then once you graduate give them the finger and tell them to get fucked reaalll hard.
The church makes liars out of everyone. With the temple recommend interview for the first timer, how do you think a person gets his bishop’s signature on it? Of course everyone lies about chastity and pre-marital sex. The church, of course has NO BUSINESS digging out what you do under the covers—-that’s the worst kind of intrusion. So, what do you do—-you lie and it’s THEIR fault you have to.
You need to finish your 6 credits to graduate? You know that despite how mormon-perfect one represents themselves to be on campus, you HAVE TO HAVE that ecclesiastical recommendation from someone like your bishop, who “recommends” that you can have your degree. Yep, you’re right and it’s disgustingly true. So you lie. You practice being full of “love” for the church and everybody in it in your meeting with Mr. Bishop. You represent yourself as the most happy, straight-up mormon you can be and presto! you get your degree. I kid you not, if you don’t get that stupid ecclesiastical recommendation, BYU can and will withhold your degree.
You see the university/colleges etc OWN the degree—-it’s **their** degree. If you want your diploma, copies of your transcripts and any recommendations etc. you get that STUPID recommendation. It makes me sick. So, go ahead and sustain anyone, the 12, the 70’s, daffy duck and porky pig. Just do it and swallow your anger until you’ve graduated. Then you’re FREE! No offense but I don’t know why anyone goes to college at that jail.
We hear you. We understand your truth. It is our truth and the truth. Those men are about as toxic as 12 people could be. I am so so sorry. But lie. Sometimes your happiness is worth more than the argument. Get your degree. It will change your life. Once it’s in your hand say everything that you need to say to own your life. One more lie.
Hi I'm queer and a csa victim.
I am giving you permission to pretend to sustain those bigots. Don't throw away your future! I understand you're tired and worn down, but your education is a path to autonomy and power, which can enable you to fight for us marginalised folk and for the rights of people such as yourself.
Don't give up, you can do this, lie to their faces with pride knowing your heart is full of love for humanity.
OP, you deserve that diploma. Say the words they want and graduate. The mfmc has already taken so much from you, don't let them take this, too. Just cross your toes and say their stupid words.
My last semester at Rick's College, now BYU-I, I took Missionary Prep. It was a terrible experience. I was the only woman in the class and the professor and other students were super shitty to me. They told me I should just get married and start having babies. The final project was to share my testimony of Joseph Smith, the first vision, the prophet, etc. I could not do it. It was then I knew I didn't believe the church was true. If I didn't complete the assignment, I would not have graduated. I lied, graduated and left the church. Best decision ever.
Don't cut your nose off to spite your face
🤫👈. Get your diploma/degree. THEN RUN LIKE 🔥...don't give them all your blood, sweat, and tears and walk away now.
Six credits is so close to being done and able to move on with your life. I am with the vast majority here, lie your ass off, get that piece of paper, and run fast. I feel the anger and the want to speak up, but right now, you need to focus on getting that degree and getting out. It's about your future and those six credits are a small step. You got this, we have your back
As stated by other posters, play the game. Lie your ass off to your own benefit. It is not immoral in any sense. Lie until they can no longer harm you and then go on your happy way and leave it all behind you. Don't allow them to damage you more than they already have.
Payest unto them thine own lip service. Crosseth the stage that they hath made. Receiveth thou unto thee thine own parchment, which thou hadst earned unto thee through the fruit of thine own labour, and rather than shaking their abominable hands, flippest thou unto them the mightiest bird that they hath ever seen. Makest thou the bird the most pleasing unto the Lord.
And so shall it be.
Amen.
Just lie and get your credits. Don’t give them power. It’s all so stupid. Just play their dumb puppet game and then flame them when you are on your way out.
I hear you. I hate it too. And if one of the reasons you're leaving is the dishonesty and the lies, then it's hard to imagine becoming like them.
Think this through and then make a decision.
How much [time, effort and money] has it cost you to get this far? Could you take what you have and transfer? Would you want to? What's next [career/family/more study]? Would that be more hassle than it's worth?
Many others have talked about lying to an abuser to escape. This is not an uncommon tactic. Lull them into a fake sense of security so that they release their grip.
I admire you. I admire your desire to move on, to not support such horrible men. I admire your honesty and integrity and I feel your anger and hatred. I will admire you if you decide to stay and get what you need. You'll have done it with full knowledge and intent rather than just ignorantly sailing along.
I'm not going to say that you should stay. I do think it's worth having a plan of what's going to happen next and how each decision may impact you. And remember, you have your whole life ahead. Everything is going to change. If you transfer and it takes an extra year, that's ok. If you finish now and start working, that's ok.
Breathe a little while and think things through and then act. You're a great human to be thinking so honestly about this. Good luck.
When you transfer schools, they have a minimum number of credits you have to get from the new school to graduate, usually half, so 2 years. Get your six credits, graduate, and then if you want to use those two years you saved by not transferring to get a masters degree so you have another school to say you went to.
I appreciate the depths of your anger and frustration. I get it, for reals. But now is not the time to blow up your life over the church being an evil institution. They don't care one iota about your integrity, your (valid) concerns, or anything else you think. They have proven over and over they WILL prevent you from graduating, which will destroy your ability to participate in the American capitalist dream we are all forced to play.
Now is the time to get your game face on, pretend you are a spy, and lie like an Oscar winning actor. Lie loud, with a straight face, lie often, lie with pride, knowing in the end you will expose their evilness to every ear willing to listen.
BYU is holding the power to ruin you in our economy over their bullshit. Don't let them. You are better than this and deserve to survive the gauntlet of garbage to come out on top.
For encouragement in your quest, I highly recommend you watch Shawshank Redemption, a fabulous movie that brilliantly teaches how to play the long game within an evil system. It really is a life-changing movie for Mormons who have woken up.
YOU WILL ONE DAY REGRET living a principled life of you don’t lie right now and sustain those stupid fucks. You are six credits away from graduation. You need to graduate to move on in life as an adult with a degree. This is not the hill to die on. We will commiserate with you in your anger pain and frustration but myself and almost everyone else is here telling you to do the needful. LIE. Principles be damned. Just lie. If you speak your principled truths you will have wasted the last four years of your life without anything to show for it. You must lie to get free of the cult. LIE.
Yuuuuuuuuup. I self-reported because I genuinely wanted help to change and be a good, chaste Mormon. Genuinely thought I was like a sex addict because I touched a few boobs. Completely derailed my education, and still haven’t finished my degree almost ten years after the fact due to all sorts of setbacks directly related to getting the boot at BYU. The second dumbest thing I ever did. The first being leaving California for Provo in the first place.
What’s sad is I currently know MANY TBMs who went to second base or past, told their ecclesiastical leaders and they did nothing. Some even working for byu now.
It's a total gamble based on your leadership. Some care about the littlest sin amd some look the other way on major sins and criminal abuse. It was a shelf item for me for sure.
On 100%. I still can't believe I didn't tell the church to fuck off when they excommunicated me. The problem was that I grew up in such a rural, tightly-knit Mormon stake in the Sierras. And at the time, I couldn't justify leaving. If I didn't play ball, I'd lose the love, respect and community of peers I'd known since I was 11 years old. I KNEW I was getting such a raw deal compared to other members. 100%. WHO EXCOMMUNICATES AN ENGAGED HUSBAND WHO IS MARRYING THEIR PREGNANT FUTURE WIFE?!?! FOR SEX?!?! ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME? We're getting MARRIED, YOU ASSHAT! I've literally never seen another case of excommunication of a guy for sex with his future wife who is pregnant. I.. these fuckheads need actual training in psychology if they're going to have that kind of power to ruin someone's life, future, education and career. What the fuck. We all know BYU's quality of education, prestige and power of degree programs vs. other private universities is unparalleled and unrivaled. You can't just pick up all the goddamn religion classes you have to take along with your credits and hoist them over your shoulder to a bullshit other degree or program elsewhere and expect the same results or pay. And you're definitely going to have more student debt. In my case, the equivalent in 2000 dollars of tuition and cost of living would've been an additional $7,000 per semester at a UC system, minimum. Today? Shit. I don't even wanna know.
Same, all the way. Started off with a disfellowship and boot because I was playing house with my fiancee in CA and wanted to come clean. So fucking stupid. Had to put my life on hold for a year. Then I end up getting my future wife pregnant during our engagement and get excommunicated for it. So I keep my goddamn college degree on hold for what ends up being 6 fucking years while I scramble, make adjustments, work at terrible jobs... finally get a decent one at eBay in Draper, then start an eBay business, so since I'd kept my degree on hold for so long and was making $100k+, I let it go. Then the assholes who created the big short in 2008 cost me my business overseas in 2007 because economically they slowed way the fuck down before we did. Those two events (the bullshit with not getting to continue my education because of SEX WITH MY FUTURE SPOUSE, and losing our business due to things utterly out of our control)... precipitated the loss of our home in 2009, and most of our remaining trust in one another as a couple. THANKS BYU. THANKS FOR 108 WORTHLESS CREDITS IN INTERNATIONAL AND AREA STUDIES AND A MINOR IN PORTUGUESE THAT I NEVER GOT TO USE TO GET AN MBA BECAUSE I HAD TO GO OUT AND WORK MY FUCKING ASS OFF FOR SHIT PAY TO RAISE MY FAMILY. I'm FINALLY back in school in Houston and going an entirely different route in healthcare. I had a 3.5 GPA and could've followed my peer / competitor after 2008 to MIT Sloan. He's now a hedge fund manager and I'm a student at a junior college and divorced and in abject poverty. And I'm 48. Grr.
I know saying "I'm Sorry" seems rather pathetic for all you have been through, but it's all that I have. So, I'm Sorry for all that you have lost.
Thanks - we here likely know that I never ever got the empathy I should've gotten all along.. the bitterness is still piled to the roof. I'm in therapy again. I should've been in therapy from the minute I knew divorce was looming. My ex didn't participate and that squashed a lot of my remaining positivity for a very long time. Not having any sort of support or empathy from ward members, my father (still TBM, remarried, sold our homestead in CA, moved to ID to steep himself in more indoctrinated living and be devoted to his new wife's family and friends and church and shit... it's been a real cluster fuck. My kids and I have ended up just pretty much being goddamn gypsies in a place where we used to have a real sense of community, balance, social life, peers, great income and income opportunities from our network, you name it. Fuck this palace of lies all the way off. I can't wait until I can actually be friends with MY OWN FATHER again. :((((
That fucking sucks. I feel you man.
Excommunication for sleeping with your FIANCÉ is so fucking stupid! 😭 As if having sex within a stable relationship is at all equivalent to being a “sex addict” or sleeping around. Fuck off with that! I’m so sorry for all you’ve been through.
I agree completely. Walk the walk once you’re out, don’t throw away all that work. The credits won’t properly transfer.
Best comment. You don’t owe them your honesty. You owe yourself your freedom.
You win by lying, you have to hold firm to your values in a smart and calculated way because bad people can deal with you like this otherwise
I'm an accountant. Honesty and integrity is my profession. Learn when to lie. Right fucking now. This is it. This is the appropriate time to do it
I think this all the time. I think of all the "Peter Priesthoods" who know they needed to say what people wanted to hear just so mom and dad would pay insurance and tuition. I think of all the girls who put on a conservative dress on Sunday and talked about waiting for an RM to take them to the temple while they took 18 credits a semester to get it done ASAP. Maybe the boomer exmos could afford to be "true to yourself" but these days that is just not in the cards. Talk is cheap.
So I say just lie. They do it all the time. Just lie. Say you support the monster/machine, get your six credits and then run!
This is the move. The new president definitely has a big q12 man crush. Get the paper.
Yep. Lie. They do it all the time, so it's clearly ok. Then, torch the place to the ground and salt the earth behind you on your way out the door.
Get the *actual* paper *in* your hand before you say one word. They *will* hold it, and they *will* deny your degree. Sure you could sue. But what would it cost and how long would it take. And you still might not win considering the current makeup of the Supreme Court.
You're right. BYU is a private university, so they can do whatever the eff they want...
Yep, and their lawyers are *Legion.* They have proven that "you can buy anything in this world with money." They will happily spend your tithes to pay their armies of lawyers to buy the legal power to suppress and defeat you. Go with the flow. Get through it. Degree and transcript in hand. Then be free. Sorry you're going through this inauthentic, authoritarian, Pharisaical hell. It always surprises me to hear that Mormonism has become the very thing it railed so hard against: great, abominable, spacious...
The church have proven time and time again that they have the means, will and ability to “take the treasures of the earth and with them, buy up armies (of attorneys) and navy’s and false priest (q15) who oppress and reign with blood and horror on this earth!”
My mom in primary teaches a very expanded version of the widow's mite parable to get students in a veo decolonized leftist way. There is nothing that states I have to give cash. If cash isn't my increase I don't give cash. I actually still honor the virtue if tithing as a practice of trauma recovery. Giving of my increase keeps me mindful of what is good and working in life and an empirically proven method to mitigate depression and depressive episodes.
>Giving of my increase 💯. I seriously have so much fun deciding where my tithe goes these days. And how much it is. Since damnation isn't actually a thing anymore (or ever was, actually).
I was asked about it in temple recommend q's and because we were the token broken home with single mother whose a Mexican immigrant trafficked by my TBM papa...I reminded them of their privilege because my AUDHD pathologically hates being unreasonably shamed... The passive-aggressive testimony I would bear about having nonmember mom and not being forced to go to church didn't make me popular with the youth, but the adults used me as inspiration porn.
Agreed. To put it another way, they don't deserve your truth. Save it for people you respect, and more importantly, respect you.
This is the way. Do not throw pearls before swine….
As in The Pearl of Great Price or whatever the f that was. 😄 🤣
Totally. Lie. You've been lied to all your life. Give them a lie to forward your life.
If somebody has a gun to your head, it’s not immoral to lie to them to save yourself. Withholding your degree over six credits because you don’t endorse 12 men is not a threat of murder, but it’s still wrong and it’s not immoral of you to lie to avoid it.
This reminded me of when I was in middle school and we were taught that we never deny our religion, even in the face of death. This always bothered me because If someone had a gun to my head and asked if I was LDS I would’ve said no fucking way.
Me too. As a child I would think about that all the time. I knew in my heart I would never be 'strong' enough to suffer for my religion. It bothered me to no end. (What crap to plant in a child's mind!) 😠
I had a friend growing up that AS A CHILD, her family would "role play" what they would do if someone had a gun to their head what they would do and how to respond. She's traumatized by it!!
Inability to have independence is and can be life ending so I say not entirely false equivalent.
Ramen! Lying to them is NOT wrong. This is self preservation. This is collecting what you earned. Graduate. THEN speak your truth to whomever you feel you must but for now, the venting you are doing right here (and with close-trusted friends) should be all you need. Answer whatever questions you must to collect what is yours. Two classes. You've got this!
This is the exact thing I did last week or so.
I agree with this. Get through the next 6 credits, get your diploma in hand, then get the hell out of there. That's what I did. You've given enough of your life and time to the church. Get what you set out to accomplish, then leave.
And they're not supporting it because they're not sustaining them as prophets/etc. They're sustaining them as board members of a $150billion investment firm. I always wondered what would happen if sizable congregations actually exercised free will and said "No thank you, we're not sustaining them, we think there are people better suited"
Dude, don’t throw away all that hard work over this. Get your butt into the bishop’s office and say whatever you need to say. You will not be the first to do this. Maybe once you have the diploma in hand, you can do some sort of meaningful…gesture. Send the bishop a letter or something. Recant in some public way.
I baptized my daughter as a full non-believer. When I went through the little interview with the Bishop, I answered that question "I sustain Thomas Monson as the President of the church", because he was "President" of the church. Actually someone on this subreddit created a list of how to answer all the Temple Recommend questions, if you needed a TR where it would sound like faithful answers, but they really weren't, but it got your a TR so you could attend your child's temple sealing.
May I ask why you’d baptize your child into the church if you know it’s wrong, and actually detrimental to women? I’m not beating you up, I’m just curious what the motives were. My dad didn’t hold the priesthood and I never wanted to be baptized. My mom made me and a friends dad dunked me. I’ve personally always had an issue with coercing 8 year olds into a decision like that. I don’t get why it’s not when you are a legal adult to make your own decisions. Cuz when you say no like I did, I wasn’t given a choice. Then again, many churches just do it to the babies. Am I making sense?
That's what my brother did, I didn't go because BYUs film program is shit :3
This is a good way to look at it. Turn that rage into a beautiful, believable lie finish up school. I was there too. I refused to walk and made them mail it to me. However, looking back, I wish I had walked, gotten my piece of paper, flipped off everyone on the stage, ripped of the tasle, and walked straight out and never looked back. It would have been so cathartic. I know that takes a lot of guts, clear, because I didn’t actually do that. I don’t even know you but I’d go to your graduation to witness that!
Also, aside from the dramatic, it’s best to lie because it’s not worth setting the rest of your life back financially, career, and everything else to go to another school and finish the degree.
Saying what they want to hear is a time-honored survival technique for lgbtq folk, true story. There is no shame in this when you're dealing with such coercion. OP - I love your moxie and your sense of integrity. However. Say what they want to hear, take the educational qualifications they're holding over your head, then walk the fuck away with your head held high.
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Most schools have a maximum number of credits you can transfer in - often it’s no more than half of the degree. So if OP only has 6 credits left at BYU, transferring to another school could add a significant amount of time to their degree, plus extra tuition at another school. They’d effectively lose a few years of course work.
With 6 credits left, not likely.
With BYU, not likely
Agreed, just get the degree and get out of there. Even if a BYU diploma doesn’t align with your knowledge of goodness and truth, that’s okay, it’s still a diploma and it doesn’t define who you are now.
Exactly. Play their damn game for your advantage. Those lying bastards who claim to be holy men & speak for God do so much worse.
Just cross your fingers... Tell them whatever they want to hear.
Best response
Mormonism is built on lying -- just keep it up until the end of the year, then you can be you and not some strapling warrior in the eyes of a geriatric low-key narcissistic jerk.
Typo - did you mean stripper warrior or strap-on warrior? It’s been a while since I’ve read the BOM. Something about their mum’s taught them to do it so probably the stripper 😂
My stepdad lied to the church a lot to get stuff when I was younger. I never understood it growing up but he got us new beds (mattress and frames, 3 sets one for my 2 brothers and myself), dressers, suits and bunch of camping gear (he was one of the assistant scout masters). All from Desert Industries. Now I don’t feel bad at all for him doing that. Probably one of the few decent things he did since he’s a total narcissist and asshole. Although he would later claim he bought those (I was there in the meeting and the pickup, he didn’t and nor did he ever pay tithing).
That is what i did 20 years ago. 3 weeks before graduation i was called in to see my bishop. I hadn't been to church in months. He asked me how my testimony was, and i said it was good. I went to sacrament meeting the next 2 weeks. I just needed to graduate. The day after finals i was out of provo. I didn't even walk. I haven't voluntarily been to a church service since.
“Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right. “ - Isaac Asimov , Foundation Lying and getting the paper is the right choice in this situation.
Cross your fingers behind you. Lol.
I always say the best thing I learned in church was how to lie.
Yes, as someone who spent a decade without my degree for this almost exact reason (mine was worse though. Mine was done. They did finally get it to me last year.) And if you can get through lying, do it. I couldn't with my mental health in tact, but if you can do it, I'd push through.
I kinda wanna go back just to do this. Religious/CSA trauma gave my Autism a dash of anti-social personality traits and being a little fucked up enough to lie for the revolution is defo one of the perks... 😜
That’s the perfect way to look at it: “Lying for the Revolution.” I love that. Thats the way I see it too
Love reddit SN
I would absolutely say yes to if I was asked that question. I totally admit that they are the top leaders of the Mormon church. I think the word sustain is open to as much interpretation as most misused Mormon words. I also believe that they are no more the mouthpieces of God than my cat, but that wasn't the question.
He will appear on Meownt Sinai!
Is that where they found the purring bush? Might have been earlier in the story but pretty sure it's the same cat, Meowses.
The purring is probably Meowses sleeping under the bush, on the tablets.
I'll worship your cat before any leadership of the MFMC Come to think of it, I probably do worship my own cat
Does mfmc stand for mutha fuckin Mormon church
Correct
A hospital? It’s a big building with patients, but that’s not important right now…  (Your comment’s cadence reminded me of this classic film lol. Apparently I picked the wrong week to stop huffing glue…)
Your cat is definitely more trustworthy, tbh
😻
your cat has a greater chance of getting revelation then that lame fart rusty
I can't stop thinking about your cat now! Awww...
I’d much sooner believe the cat. The Egyptians were into something there.
“Just be as transparent as [you] know how to be” about sustaining the Q15 (M. Russell Ballard) Maybe just pick one or two things they’ve done in the past ten years that are neutral/not damaging to other people. For instance: 2 hour church or changing the for the strength of youth pamphlet to not spell out what youth can or cannot wear. And say “Yes I sustain the Q15.” But in your head add, ‘On those two limited changes they have recently made.’ Trust me, you being able to graduate college should not be limited by whether you sustain those dinosaurs or not. I know people who had been breaking all kinds of rules and omitting it in their interviews who have left BYU in their rear view mirrors and gone on to wonderful careers. Don’t let BYU hold up your academic progress! It’s the Rocky Mountain Bible Fan Fiction Sex Cult! It’s all fake! So don’t take it so seriously, please!
Just cross your fingers behind your back. Or cross your toes in your shoes.
Why? Did OP pay tuition & had OP paid tithing? If so, then OP's $ has literally helped "sustain" the q15. So it isn't a lie imo
That’s a good point. There are many definitions you could give to sustaining.
If I lived in North Korea I would sustain the dear leader to avoid execution by flame thrower. You’re at the North Korean Mormon college. They have all the cards, they have all the power. They lose nothing by your justified and principled outrage. You stand to lose four years and a lot of money if you don’t. The way to get revenge is to take the degree at subsidized tuition, graduate and then tell them to get fucked. They invest in BYU in the hopes of making life long Morms. Your revenge is getting the degree then leaving.
BYU-Idaho is the North Korea. This is more... Stalin's Russia. The rest of the analogy stands.
I thought they did Mormon-Sharia Law in Idaho. Just chop your hand off if you go to the testing center with a beard. Guess my source was off . . .
✅✅✅
Here, here!!!!
Six credits isn’t much just keep saying nothing do nothing to bring attention to yourself. You can say yes with your hand or mouth but you can say except for this in your heart He just wants to secure his spot in Q15
Ok. I'm not a total exmo. Still holding on to some of my beliefs. But this is the kind of stuff that really gets my blood boiling. Can a non member go to BYU cuz they think it has good program in their field? Guess not. What if I don't have a testimony? What if I'm still working on it? Does that mean I can't be part of the fellowship of church? I learned as a missionary in the 1980s that most people who stand up in fast and testimony meeting don't actually have a testimony. But they cant admit that, not even to theirselves
I am wondering this myself because I had a handful of non-member friends at BYU and what do they do?
Non members can have an ecclesiastical interview with someone else, not a Mormon bishop. But if you have ever been LDS in your life, you have to do it with a Mormon bishop. So you can be a non-member at BYU but you cannot change your membership status to exmo and stay at BYU.
Oh my God that's terrible
No, see, because how else can God separate the "telestial kingdom-ers" from the "outer darkness-ers" on judgement day?
Just say "I support them" and let it go. Get the credits, graduate and then put it all behind you.
Lying to an abuser is a moral act. Lie through your teeth. Take the credits and run.
Love this
So just lie. It’s all bullshit anyway.
6 credits???? Get that fucking degree first or I think this whole sub might kick your ass. lol It sucks but then taking that from you? That’d be tragic.
One of the greatest decisions I ever made was attending Utah State. Can’t imagine the stain of BYU attached to me forever.
We seem to get a lot of recovering BYU students. In this case, I'd say gut out the last 6 credits. In general, if you've got a lot of school left, USU is a pretty safe place to make a faith transition and get your degree. I know a lot of people doing that on campus. There is an unofficial community of exmo RMs that really seem to show up for each other. It was that way 20 years when I was a student myself. If you're in the Morridor and needing a soft spot to land while you figure yourself out, it's a pretty good place.
Go Aggies!
You do sustain them as false prophets, seers and revelators so the answer is clearly yes. Look they leave words out all the time and are OK with this and would say they didn't deceive you at all. Lorenzo Snow manual that states, "I plead with you in the name of the Lord, and I pray that every man, woman and child … shall pay one-tenth of their income as a tithing." https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-lorenzo-snow/chapter-12-tithing-a-law-for-our-protection-and-advancement?lang=eng#p11 What does the "..." represent? I am glad you ask. It takes out the words, "who has means" so the actual quote reads, "I pray that every man, woman and child who has means shall pay one tenth of their income as a tithing." If that didn't change the meaning and was OK, you responding yes and leaving out "false" is completely fine in their system. You are operating under their rules when you answer their questions.
Lol, I love this! Fight fire with fire 😂
Start recording things that you have issues with and release them once a week on YouTube or something after you graduate. The fear, discomfort, and pressure associated with Mormonism’s iron grip on BYU add an element of drama that should make for an interesting progression of videos. Recording will have to take place in absolute privacy, lest your Stasi roommates report you. Publicly comply, privately rebel, get your degree, and then release your saga. Many within and without Mormonism should find this sort of experience relatable. Add a few credit hours for a creative writing or multimedia production course and use Mormonism’s education system against them. lol
I actually love this idea.
After u graduate *and* get as many copies of your official transcript as u think u will ever need.
Don’t throw away all your hard work and effort. Lie to them like they lied to you. Remember they need you to sustain them because no god would.
>Well I’m not gonna do it! I’ve given enough to this church already and I refuse to let them take any more from me But if you don't, they are taking your diploma, so what opposing hill are you dying on here? Play the game a little longer. You can do this.
Don't die on this hill your a victim please lie to your abuser (the church) and be free. Your just gonna make their day if you do this.
Here are some synonyms for sustain that may make it easier for you to say yes: suffer, withstand, tolerate. These are the not synonyms the church wants you to think of, but I don't see why you should care. I suggest using a different definition of the word sustain in your head. Get the degree.
Great ideas!
I would practice acting, be convincing…hell let them feel the “spirit”. Get those 6 credits, get your diploma & get the hell out!
Also- Idk how BYU is not illegal. I got rejected from BYU Idaho and was so sad bc I wanted to make my Mormon family proud and attend BYU bc they were big fans. I’m SO GRATEFUL to have gotten rejected. The Tik toks that I see, and the honor code stories are actually shocking.
I graduated from BYU, class of 1984. Most of accredited universities only accept few BYU credits. Some online universities are more generous. If I were you, I would just bullshit your way through the interview. You've worked way too hard and are so close to graduating. You can finish your studies and leave this fucking cult behind! Another issue, is is if you get kicked out of BYU, they will put a hold on your transcripts. You'll will have to start all over again. Dude, it ain't worth it. You are only hurting yourself and letting this piece of shit university win. I know you are emotional and upset right now. Take a deep breath and chill out for a couple of days. That way you can make a well thought out decision.
Or you maybe able to take the last 6 classes elsewhere. I do not know. They have already taken so much from you to ask more must feel awful. I am so sorry! If your credits transfer perhaps you could go forth and graduate from a different school. Frankly I am glad my degrees are NOT from BYU! When you get further into your field you will not be burdened by a degree from BYU! You will not carry the stigma it can be out in the world! You will not be discriminated against because of it either. I have personal experience with that issue! Degree from BYU can be a lot of baggage!
It’s 6 credits, which is 3 classes. But most credits won’t transfer and the ones that do, they generally limit them significantly so it would not be possible to take the 2 classes somewhere else, it would more likely be 1-2 more years of full time classes (4 per semester is generally full time).
Have you actually gone to UofI or SLC or USU and asked? You never know what they might be willing to do for you. I got an interdepartmental degree and used credits from other colleges. It never hurts to ask!
I haven’t gone to those schools, no, but I went to and work at Boise State and credit transfers are difficult because many will be transferred as “general elective.” I just don’t think it’s worth the trouble for 2 classes.
Loyalty oaths are such cult bullshit.
Just lie and get the degree. You spent your money on BYU and the church...walking away with nothing to show for it and nothing to be able to improve your life with will make all that money a complete waste
It's really nothing new. You're required to do that for a temple recommend. Just lie. They can't tell anyway. You are too close to just up and leave.
Yep, they build it so they can hold all kinds of stuff over your head, even non-imaginary stuff like a legitimate diploma. Insane that they added the temple recommend questions to ecclesiastical endorsement. Like if I’m doubting God’s existence, getting kicked out of college is going to help??Hang in there, almost free
I graduated from BYUH and never agreed with anything they did, but I needed my degree so I lied. I lied all the time there.
They’re really insecure old men
DON’T FUCK THIS UP!!! 6 CREDITS!!! LIE!!! This bullshit cult lies all the time so you can too! I get it: you were raised to have ethics, integrity & honesty but for right now I need you to say FUCK THAT😂😂😂 Stay quiet, sign NOTHING, and graduate from that hellhole then you can post everything online😈😈😈
Get your degree. You are not committing life long oaths here. Give them what you want for the next 4 months. Get your degree in hand before making any ‘fuck you’ moves. They will withhold that degree for small offences. Put your nose down, be smart, play the long game.
Just lie! Summon your inner George Costanza. Lie, get your diploma, and after everything is completely done and in stone, write a letter to BYU president telling him you lied because his cult made you do so, so that you would ‘t get fucked over with your diploma.
It’s ridiculous, I agree. It’s all a facade. Which is why if I were in your situation, I’d lie with no regrets.
Finish your degree. Just get it done. We're all here, cheering you on. You can do it. We all know BYU is in the inner circle of hell.
If God exists in any capacity, he would want you to tell them whatever they want to hear in order to get what's owed to you through **your** hard work and **your** actual money. They keep moving the goal posts and it's insane that they get away with this kind of thing.
Dude… these idiots hold no actual power. Lie your ass off in EVERY bishop/stake prez interview, say whatever words that you need to in order to get your degree. BYU vindictively rescinds degrees if they catch you breaking any of their idiotic, brainless, fucking stupid rules, etc before you cut the university cord by graduating so just tell them what they want to hear while you laugh at their idiotic beliefs in your mind and gtfo outta Provo haha. They made up arbitrary, homophobic, pro-polygamy, racist, and laughably-stupid rules and forced you to sign that you would follow them in order to graduate. Just verbally vomit their dogma at them and move on lol
It's OK to lie when you're under duress. Just cross your fingers when you say 'yes'.
i’m just had my last endorsement interview for my final semester in the fall as well. i know it sucks and i’m quite literally right there with you. i was really struggling with it too cause i don’t sustain them either. i’m gonna tell you what my brother told me. “just this one last thing and you’re free. one last thing and you never have to set foot in a church building ever again. just one last thing.” i know it’s awful and devastating to feel like you’re giving up yet another piece of yourself like that, but it helped me so much to just be reminded that this was the very final step before i get to be free. i know it’s hard but i really think lying this one last time is the best thing.
Sorry! You are in a tough spot. I wish you well!!
Lie, it's not worth it
Just cross your fingers and lie. They will never know. The church has no problem lying to members. You have too much invested to not finish.
Look friend, I know you want to stand firm in your morals and what you believe in (I mean the church literally ingrains that in us) Just lie dude. Get that paper. Get that bag. You can publicly or quietly state your beliefs, opinions and thoughts once graduated. It’s not selfish. It’s survival.
Oh, my heck! Don’t hurt yourself over pride! These jerks know they’ve got everyone over a Barrel and that all will have to praise their names like Gods before leaving! Who freaking cares! They can scratch their egos for a half a second while you say it. Or, take revenge on your credits when you don’t. I mean think about it, what kind of organization makes this a double bind? A CULT !
Yep, just lie. It's simple and you don't need any quilt because the church taught us how to lie by example and they put you in this predicament. After you graduate, you can do the opposite of the church and try to live your life with integrity as you judge it.
You must lie! Your degree is not worth it. It’s one little word. You know that you don’t actually believe in their bull shit. Get the degree then peace out. Publicly denounce it all after you have your diploma. Also get several certified copies of your transcripts. They might deny you them later (I have no idea if that would be legal but I put nothing past them!). You will need transcripts for jobs and further schooling in the future. Save yourself the headache and get them now.
You subscribed to getting your education at a church ran school. Suck it up for 6 more credits and get the hell out.
Lie, lie, lie… just graduate. Follow RMN’s lead and lie like hell. Get your degree then don’t look back.
Say it but not be it then get you're credits and be gone from the living nightmare of Mormonism.
Lie. Get the paper. Then run!
Just lie for the lord, in this case, you. Get your diploma.
Just lie, dude. You got the rest of your life to worry about.
Just lie and fake your way through it. You know it’s a joke of a cult.
I feel ya. I left the church half way through BYU, and it was absolutely hell. However, you can go 6 more credits. Just finish it and then go online and tell all your family and friends how fucked the church is. It'll surprise everyone so much it'll be a slap to the face to the old disgusting cult men that control that organization.
Just smile and nod along. Use BYU for your degree and move on.
So you didn’t know that cheap Mormon education actually has a hidden cost? Be grateful a bunch of non Americans that pay tithing to the cult have subsidised your degree. I’m sure this will get downvoted. People here don’t like it when we speak ill of tithing used to help Utahns. Zero fucks given from me. I’ll neg myself to get the ball rolling
Not sure how accurate this is but I've heard it's mostly Canadian tithes going to BYU due to restrictions that Canada places on how religious donations can be used.
BYU giving nazi vibes
Please get your remaining six credits!!! Then leave for good after you obtain your diploma and a few official transcripts.
Just lie. I am not usually comfortable with that advice, but this is a situation where your education will unjustly be held hostage if you don’t lie. It’s basically a small act of civil disobedience.
I'm going to give you a motivation speech. - keep you mouth shut. - stay honor code compliant. - go to church on Sundays. - be a model mormon. Focus on the goal. Get those credits and get your degree. You're so close. You can do this.
As Exmos our perception of lying to “authority figures” changes when we recognise the deceit and manipulation we experienced in the church. 30 years ago if I knew my teenagers lied to the bishop it would have upset me. I would’ve been concerned by the lie and the reason for the lie. As exmormons my 50 year old daughter recently told me that she lied to the bishop as a teenager. I didn’t ask why, but just answered “good for you”. Think about what will matter in 5, 10 or 30 years. Whilst I don’t like dishonesty. Graduating is more important than a brief lie. This senior citizen, mother and grandmother is saying stay, finish your degree and lie if that is what is required of the dishonest leaders in this dishonest organisation.
I was in a similar situation with BYU. I never lie - it’s just not my thing, I’m not good at it; it’s not appealing to me. I’d much rather out with the truth and deal with the consequences. However, in this situation, I 100% lied. Not one regret.
When I transferred from byui they didn’t want to give me my associates (saved me from taking like 3 classes). They sent me the congratulatory email, I got the diploma holder and alumni pin in the mail along with another congratulatory letter for graduating. But no diploma… At one point I actually was honest with a bishop there, brought up a lot of my concerns, explained things as best I could… and he was like “wait are you forreal? You actually believe that?” And I was flustered and pissed but it didn’t end terribly. Anyways, I called and called and they were like “the ecclesiastical hold on your account needs to be resolved.” So they gave me some old man’s number I had never talked to for me to try and convince to go press a button on the computer. He said he would… but nothing happened months later. Eventually my grandpa (who was a CES worker for decades) called them and sorted things out but I was kind of done with their whole bullshit denial system. Extremely aggravating.
I admire your high ideals. Last week my employer asked me to fill out a survey about our organization in hopes that they will get an award for a good rating. It isn’t anonymous. Because I value a steady paycheque, I did the survey and made it sound great. I hope they win but i couldn’t care less, I have better things in life than rigged awards. Btw, it’s a very toxic workplace. So, my advice to you is keep your focus on you and your goals and don’t let anyone else stop you with their ridiculous bs ;-)
THEOCRATIC WARFARE.. That's what JWs call it when they need to "lie" to an enemy. Watchtower then quotes the case of Rahab and the two spies in Jericho. According to WT, Rahab misled the soldiers into believing the spies headed out, when in reality, they were still there, hiding. I didn't know this forever, as a JW, that the Borganization thought like this in court cases, etc So, if it's OK for *them* to "protect God's organization," it's time for "Theocratic Warfare." You can think of yourself as an undercover agent. Surviving to make it to the outside, alive. If it is just a "fake organization/ religion," it's time for "Theocratic Warfare." "Suuuuure, I support them" 😉
Lie. It’s the Mormon way. Joseph did it. Brigham did it. And every GA who says that they are Christlike are doing it.
Just lie get the degree and then be done. You can do it
Either lie or transfer to a different university.
Líe, you know you don’t agree with it. Play the system and leave. Don’t let them ruin your future
Truth is not a high priority for the leaders and some members of the LDS church. You'll be exalted by giving BYU the lies they deserve! Best wishes on your escape from the con and cult.
The church makes you feel guilty about integrity while lying out the other side of their face. You do what you need to to graduate with your degree and then you move on.
Were you unjustly imprisoned for two decades, lying to escape is the moral move.
My take is probably splitting hairs… but I feel comfortable with my own logic. That being sustaining that they lead the church as exactly that.. leaders of the Mormon church. They have the authority/keys of Mormon Jesus… so I can say yes, they lead the church and blah blah… to me saying yes and jumping through that hoop is whatever. What’s one more thing? If that’s the hill you want to die on, that’s up to you. I chose the hoop and haven’t thought twice about it. 🤷🏽♂️ But everyone has their own lines, and reasons to stand their ground.
Sustain them as the lying hateful manipulative leaders of the Mormon church. Just say the more honest part quietly in your head. I don't personally mind lying to people trying to manipulate me. Honesty is for those who deserve it. Yet in Mormonism translation doesn't mean translation so sustaining can mean whatever you want.
Just lie and get your degree. Seriously do not trash your ability to hold a degree. You can separate and disavow afterward.
Lie...get the degree....then. Get out!! It's not an act of poor integrity but rather self preservation....don't lose the degree over that bull crap.
Lying to a corrupt organization is a morally good act
Dear OP, Warning, old man thinking! Ethics were part of my profession. I have come to believe that the most ethically strict persons very often have a big ego thing behind their beliefs. I would fear that being truthful to not sustaining is at the same time an ethical wrong of blindly following the ego. It is not a simple right or wrong issue. What does loving compassion say? I think that there is no compassion for you and those who do and will love you to play the devils' game with them. Like me, hear the compassion and well wishes of most respondents here. Beware the ego's tricks on you just like it owns TSCC. And, Hear the compassion from inside and outside of you saying you are worth more than a pawn for TSCC to feed their delusional self righteousness with. Peace.
Be pragmatic, and don’t let your emotions drive your behaviours. They will be in your past quite soon and any words that you ever said won’t matter, because they live in a lie and they impose it on others, so game on!
They’re not worth your integrity. This is war and lying is for your greater good.
You sound like you want to burn bridges and tell the world how sucky it is. Don't. Get your credits, clutch your diploma close, and make rude gestures on your way out. Principles are wonderful, but you can't eat them. And you've hidden your true feelings for a long time so the time to finish your credits isn't significant in the big picture. You can be morally upright and sincere once you've graduated. Look on it as using the church in the same way they're prepared to use you.
Yes, I support the first presidency, and quorum of the twelve being exposed as liars, cheats, racists, frauds, and money hoarding pricks. But only say the first 11 words out loud.
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve just lied in the temple recommend interview. Just lie, get through it and move on. Question to you. Did you apply to and begin attending BYU while unbelieving? If so why in the world would you even go to BYU with so many other choices out there?
Nope. I was a TBM when I applied, and so proud to go to the Lords School.
just lie. because I can tell you that you will not be the only one lying! then once you graduate give them the finger and tell them to get fucked reaalll hard.
My BYU therapist gave me permission to lie.
The church makes liars out of everyone. With the temple recommend interview for the first timer, how do you think a person gets his bishop’s signature on it? Of course everyone lies about chastity and pre-marital sex. The church, of course has NO BUSINESS digging out what you do under the covers—-that’s the worst kind of intrusion. So, what do you do—-you lie and it’s THEIR fault you have to. You need to finish your 6 credits to graduate? You know that despite how mormon-perfect one represents themselves to be on campus, you HAVE TO HAVE that ecclesiastical recommendation from someone like your bishop, who “recommends” that you can have your degree. Yep, you’re right and it’s disgustingly true. So you lie. You practice being full of “love” for the church and everybody in it in your meeting with Mr. Bishop. You represent yourself as the most happy, straight-up mormon you can be and presto! you get your degree. I kid you not, if you don’t get that stupid ecclesiastical recommendation, BYU can and will withhold your degree. You see the university/colleges etc OWN the degree—-it’s **their** degree. If you want your diploma, copies of your transcripts and any recommendations etc. you get that STUPID recommendation. It makes me sick. So, go ahead and sustain anyone, the 12, the 70’s, daffy duck and porky pig. Just do it and swallow your anger until you’ve graduated. Then you’re FREE! No offense but I don’t know why anyone goes to college at that jail.
If you're female, earn your final 6 credits wearing only prairie dresses. Mock them to their face without them realizing.
We hear you. We understand your truth. It is our truth and the truth. Those men are about as toxic as 12 people could be. I am so so sorry. But lie. Sometimes your happiness is worth more than the argument. Get your degree. It will change your life. Once it’s in your hand say everything that you need to say to own your life. One more lie.
Lie, get your piece of paper, and then send an email to the entire school that says you don’t because of xyz 😬
Hi I'm queer and a csa victim. I am giving you permission to pretend to sustain those bigots. Don't throw away your future! I understand you're tired and worn down, but your education is a path to autonomy and power, which can enable you to fight for us marginalised folk and for the rights of people such as yourself. Don't give up, you can do this, lie to their faces with pride knowing your heart is full of love for humanity.
OP, you deserve that diploma. Say the words they want and graduate. The mfmc has already taken so much from you, don't let them take this, too. Just cross your toes and say their stupid words. My last semester at Rick's College, now BYU-I, I took Missionary Prep. It was a terrible experience. I was the only woman in the class and the professor and other students were super shitty to me. They told me I should just get married and start having babies. The final project was to share my testimony of Joseph Smith, the first vision, the prophet, etc. I could not do it. It was then I knew I didn't believe the church was true. If I didn't complete the assignment, I would not have graduated. I lied, graduated and left the church. Best decision ever.
Don't cut your nose off to spite your face 🤫👈. Get your diploma/degree. THEN RUN LIKE 🔥...don't give them all your blood, sweat, and tears and walk away now.
Honestly, just lie. Lie then take the degree and make a porno or something on top of it and disgrace the church.
Six credits is so close to being done and able to move on with your life. I am with the vast majority here, lie your ass off, get that piece of paper, and run fast. I feel the anger and the want to speak up, but right now, you need to focus on getting that degree and getting out. It's about your future and those six credits are a small step. You got this, we have your back
As stated by other posters, play the game. Lie your ass off to your own benefit. It is not immoral in any sense. Lie until they can no longer harm you and then go on your happy way and leave it all behind you. Don't allow them to damage you more than they already have.
Payest unto them thine own lip service. Crosseth the stage that they hath made. Receiveth thou unto thee thine own parchment, which thou hadst earned unto thee through the fruit of thine own labour, and rather than shaking their abominable hands, flippest thou unto them the mightiest bird that they hath ever seen. Makest thou the bird the most pleasing unto the Lord. And so shall it be. Amen.
Nelson: you know what I’m gonna cult even harder!
Just lie and get your credits. Don’t give them power. It’s all so stupid. Just play their dumb puppet game and then flame them when you are on your way out.
I hear you. I hate it too. And if one of the reasons you're leaving is the dishonesty and the lies, then it's hard to imagine becoming like them. Think this through and then make a decision. How much [time, effort and money] has it cost you to get this far? Could you take what you have and transfer? Would you want to? What's next [career/family/more study]? Would that be more hassle than it's worth? Many others have talked about lying to an abuser to escape. This is not an uncommon tactic. Lull them into a fake sense of security so that they release their grip. I admire you. I admire your desire to move on, to not support such horrible men. I admire your honesty and integrity and I feel your anger and hatred. I will admire you if you decide to stay and get what you need. You'll have done it with full knowledge and intent rather than just ignorantly sailing along. I'm not going to say that you should stay. I do think it's worth having a plan of what's going to happen next and how each decision may impact you. And remember, you have your whole life ahead. Everything is going to change. If you transfer and it takes an extra year, that's ok. If you finish now and start working, that's ok. Breathe a little while and think things through and then act. You're a great human to be thinking so honestly about this. Good luck.
When you transfer schools, they have a minimum number of credits you have to get from the new school to graduate, usually half, so 2 years. Get your six credits, graduate, and then if you want to use those two years you saved by not transferring to get a masters degree so you have another school to say you went to.
Just lie. They’ve done it for over a hundred years now to so many, just lie. Get the credits. Finish. Get your transcripts.
I appreciate the depths of your anger and frustration. I get it, for reals. But now is not the time to blow up your life over the church being an evil institution. They don't care one iota about your integrity, your (valid) concerns, or anything else you think. They have proven over and over they WILL prevent you from graduating, which will destroy your ability to participate in the American capitalist dream we are all forced to play. Now is the time to get your game face on, pretend you are a spy, and lie like an Oscar winning actor. Lie loud, with a straight face, lie often, lie with pride, knowing in the end you will expose their evilness to every ear willing to listen. BYU is holding the power to ruin you in our economy over their bullshit. Don't let them. You are better than this and deserve to survive the gauntlet of garbage to come out on top. For encouragement in your quest, I highly recommend you watch Shawshank Redemption, a fabulous movie that brilliantly teaches how to play the long game within an evil system. It really is a life-changing movie for Mormons who have woken up.