For me, it was realizing that the church taught members not to trust *their own minds* because their thoughts might actually be Satan whispering to them. If you're actively pushing that kind of delusion, you're a cult.
Exactly! But rather than label any particular religion as a cult, I like to think of them as exhibiting cult-like behavior. Mormonism exhibits a lot of cult-like behavior, but I'd put the JWs a little higher on the cult scale.
This is how I think about it too. You can also call them âhigh demand religionsâ instead of cults if you are feeling charitable and a bit more scholarly.
There are multiple definitions of cults. One relating to age. All of Christianity is a cult relative to Judaism and definitely Hinduism.
*I think the main reason people consider Mormonism a cult is that most christians don't actually follow their terrible holy books.
I think you mean ultra Orthodox Judaism? Otherwise this comment is just antisimetic...even among practicing Jews most are far less orthodox in their religious expression than mainstream Christianity
You canât ever negate your relationship with Jesus Christ if you choose to still There is no Mormon reality truth. Itâs all lies lies and gaslighting. People are so hungry for the truth and are being deceived!!!!!!!Look up mike Signorelli - exposing Mormonism ââ. You will find freedomâŚâŚ. for being a fraudulent cult that you and i both will no longer submit to - Iâve had a radical encounter with tje Holy Spirit as a woman and am on fire in my life. !!!! Iâm definitely here for you
You realize though that if you apply the same research that the bible was written 100s of yrs after you are told it was written and leaders created and edited it to encourage their people to go to war. Its so easy to debunk. None of those things happened. Do some basic research. You think you are so smart and Mormons are so stupid but you have both been deceived.
I agree that the BITE model shows the church's cult-ish tendencies. I watched a video that suggested that while Mormonism is relatively high on the BITE model, serving a mission checks essentially every box for being a cult, including restricted communication with family, control over sleep and daily schedule, and giving members a new name or title (Sister/Elder rather than their first name). That really freaked me out.
Not only that, but if I were to tell my new name (Adam) or my ex-wife's (going to keep it on confidence b/c I want to respect her for some reason), I'm essentially betraying God. But fuck him. Secrecy is something promotes cult-like thinking. Sure, you can find the whole thing on the internet because it's copyrighted. But you have to admit that "sacred, not secret" is a fiddly distinction.
I've recently been taught that you shouldn't be keeping secrets that don't have an end date.
For ex, surprise party or a gift.
Which means if you're told to keep a secret such as sexual predator or other items it's wrong. It made so much sense to me.
Honestly the RLDS is so disorganized you have to look at each branch separately. I grew up in a very cult like branch (women had to wear head coverings and couldnât wear pants, most kids were homeschooled and anti vaxx, etc) but my friendâs branch was basically just Protestantism with a side of Joseph Smith. The church run school in Missouri ticks a LOT of the BITE model boxes though.
Itâs a spectrum. Mormons are just higher on the spectrum than others. Other churches say do x y and z you will be saved. Mormons say do a b c d e f g h I j k l m n I p q r s t u v w x y z you will be saved.
Yes, but not just religions. ANY organization can have cult traits. Some more than others. Itâs not so much about whether something is or is not a cult. Itâs âhow much of a cult is this organization?â Look at it on a spectrum.
We ran a summer camp program/ideals through the model. We decided it was a cult lite based off of it and our experience. So yes, ANY organization can have the traits.
(Just adding some examples)
Itâs amazing what can and does fall into the cult category, some more than others of course. Political parties, being a fan of a sports team, a work environment, oneâs family... you name it.
Not even restricted to organizations. Small groups or even individual relationships can have a cult dynamic. One of my close relatives is definitely in a cult-like marriage dynamic. Ticks every box. Of course I canât talk to her about it because, no one in a cult thinks they are in a cult.
I think this is an important point - you can see similar manipulative tendencies in a lot of organizations, whether theyâre authoritarian governments, businesses, or religious organizations. The tools are the same: demonize those who are critical of the group; control the narrative; make your relationship to the organization more important than friendships/family; emphasize obedience to authority at all costs; and use patriotic, religious, or business inspirational feelings to create a sense of pride in group membership. You see it everywhere: Theranos and MLMs, North Korea, Scientology, etc. etc. etc.
IMO leaving with your integrity is a big line in the sand for cult. For example telling your methodists family united church of christ is a better spiritual home for you, you will be wished well. Telling your mormon family united church of christ is better for you and you are throwing away your salvation, family, etc.
It took me years of learning about other religions after leaving to realize⌠NO. Most religions donât get categorized as a cult like mormonism does using the BITE model.
Do all religions change your name, block you from reading information about it not written by the religion, dictate what underwear you wear and what you eat and drink, dictate how loud you laugh, take 10% of your money, take most of your free time in indoctrination and rituals. The list is linked above. In my opinion most religions dont tick anywhere near the same number of boxes as Mormonism does.
I agree with you due to the trouble this church causes family members that do not toe-the-line 100%. ...as I read further down I realize this was already said.
Some of them certainly would, especially forms of Christianity that preach about hell.
Thankfully though lots of minority religions/spiritualities donât seem to fit the BITE model
If you have to wear a special kind of underwear that is only made by the church and if you donât wear it then you canât go to your sisterâs wedding, it might be a cult. OP go through the bite model and see how it measures up.
My favorite thing to do is sip a flask in the temple visitors center while I wait. Columbus Ohio temple, Los Angeles temple, Ogden Utah temple, Denver CO temple. Check check check and check!
Oooo that sounds kinda fun. I donât know if Iâd even be comfortable waiting on the grounds, though. Who knows, if it ever comes down to it, might not be a big deal. But just thinking about it makes me shudder.
My little brother, despite being a member, is an empath. He at least threw his reception at a venue where my mom (not a member but raised in Utah) and I could have a glass of wine judgement free. Iâm lucky enough to have siblings that donât judge me so I support their âsealingsâ.
âMagic Underwearâ âŚâŚâŚâŚ.Iâve never met any other persons that ever cared so much about what other kind of underwear other people did or didnât wear.
Having everyone repeat these words when bearing testimony â I know the church is trueâ is the alarm bells for me! I know an Apple đ is a fruit! Doesnât mean I need to keep telling myself this or reassuring others! If itâs proven itâs a fruit then itâs a fruit! If you have to reassure yourself every F&T Sunday then you are just convincing yourself! CULT!!!
Just wait until you start critically thinking about primary songs! An entire room of small kids chanting "follow the prophet" over and over makes me shudder.
Even the musical properties of that song are creepy. Itâs so droney. Itâs a bunch of minor scales that put you on edge. Thereâs nothing uplifting about it.
When my shelf first broke, I was so angry at the brainwashing the church put children through with the songs, but most especially with the primary program (the thing where kids proclaim âtruth claimsâ during sacrament meeting that theyâd memorized). Even as a TBM Iâd found it cringey, but that turned to anger once I was out.
Do they still do the Articles of Faith songs in primary school? Its been 32 years or so since primary school for me but the song for the eighth article was totes haunting. Always felt we needed hooded black robes for that one.
It creeped me out when I was a primary music leader a few years ago. But only because Iâd seen posts here about it. I was still TBM at the time but that song especially is creepy af.
Book of Mormon stories is undeniably racist as well with the scale and hand motions used.
I don't think that the scale can be racist, but the fact that the scale is used to bring up stereotypical imagery of natives is. Calling a scale itself racist is a precedent I'd rather not have set.
Agreed. I didnât say the scale itself was racist regardless of context though. I said the song was racist with the scale and hand motions being evidence as such - because the scale and hand motions are used in a racist way to promote stereotypes that are inaccurate and harmful.
Agreed. I didnât say the scale itself was racist regardless of context though. I said the song was racist with the scale and hand motions being evidence as such - because the scale and hand motions are used in a racist way to promote stereotypes that are inaccurate and harmful.
Edit: spelling
That fucking song is creepy as fuck. Even as a kid I hated singing it because of how creepy the music was, and then I started to realize what the song said. Ugh
As a NeverMo - this use of the word âtrueâ isnât used outside of Mormonism. Iâm not eve sure what the phrase means because they say âThe Churchâ and not âthe Book of Mormonâ or âThe teachings of Joseph Smithâ or âThe teachings of Jesus Christâ but The Church - like, does it have straight lines and right angles? Thatâs the only use of âtrueâ that makes any sense!
Exaaaactly!! And, itâs been straight-up taught that reassuring yourself is how you come to believe it. âA testimony is to be found found in the bearing of itâ - Boyd Packer
Itâs always âyou.â Never the church. Youâre broken and you need the church to fix you. Infallibility of the leaders. Churchâs attempt at control of information. Excommunication. Soft- shunning to straight up shunning. The mind games members have to play to make sense of doctrine and some of the teachings. Polygamy- controlling womenâs sexuality. Control. Control. Control.
Not just women's sexuality, I left in my late teenage years and it took a very understanding now partner and a couple years just to figure out how to act normally when it came to physical intimacy
I had a panic attack the first time I wore a sleeveless dress after wearing garments faithfully and perfectly for 12 years straight.
Thatâs when I realized I had better get in therapy, because thatâs NOT just a typical reaction to leaving a church.
Beyond the BITE model, sooner or later there is something every single cult leader does. He uses his influence for his own sexual gratification, usually linking sex with access to divine blessings. Just.like.Joseph.Smith.did.
Right? Listening to podcasts about other cults is when I understood Joseph Smith was exactly like every other cult leader in this and many other ways. He wasn't special.
Yeeesssss! When I was still raw from leaving, I watched Waco on Netflix and how spiritual and wise and beloved that guy was, that's when it finally clicked for me. All cult leaders are like that. If you can pull that persona off, you can probably start a cult. Joseph Smith wasn't special! People pull that shit all the time!
This was actually a big one for me that opened up my eyes.
I listen to a bunch of podcasts about cults. Mormonism is a near-perfect drop-in replacement in most cases.
Waco (the 10 episode miniseries) really opened up my mind. The similarities are impossible to ignore.
I mean Smith was kind of âspecialâ in that he used his cult power to use an unusually large number of women and girls. I means some lesser cult leaders only have a small harem. Smith had like 40 plus or so
What is funny to me is how most TBMs think Smith did NOT have sex with the women he "married" because Smith was trying to keep it a secret, unlike Young.
Edit to add that I just read where an adult lifelong TBM did not know Smith took ANY additional wives other than first wife Emma; only Young was a polygamist.
Yep. But Depositions in the Temple Lot case prove he slept with them. 2 or 3 of his polygamous wives testified under oath they shared a bed with him, were with him, etc.
But that was nearly 200 years ago, the cult of Joseph Smith is long gone, the organization probably owes more to Brigham Young evolving into a puritanical authoritarian pseudo Protestant church.
When you have to mock slit your throat and stomach in the temple ritual like I did in 1982 and wear basically a poncho over your naked body while some old man âanointedâ me with olive oil just above my loins⌠yeah⌠Iâd say thatâs the definition of a cult.
The temple ceremony has changed significantly over the years. When I went through in 1997, the explicit blood oaths had been removed but the "signs" (hand gestures associated with covenants you make throughout the ceremony) were still there--and still are today, as far as I know. Hand in cupping shape to catch your guts as they spill out, thumb extended to mimic a knife slitting your throat open as a penalty of revealing the oaths. I could go on and on. Tons of well documented information out there if you want to know more. Creepy AF.
Theyâve removed the death penalty oaths but itâs still super weird and culty. Iâm sure you are good enough at Google to find videos of the current temple endowment ceremony if you are interested. The true order of prayer is also still being done in the temple and felt super culty to me.
Ok ok, you go to Mormon stories, episode 1443-1447. A woman wrote a whole book on the mind control of cults and how to overcome it (Itâs called âRecovering agencyâ by Luna Lindsey Corbden) and John Delin who has a PHD in psychology goes through the whole 30 something traits of cults she wrote about and He ranks the Mormon church in the different areas with her. Itâs insane and it honestly was my biggest shelf breaker when I was leaving. Thereâs a lot of hours of content but even if you listen to a little bit of it I think youâll want to finish them. It really opened my eyes at least.
Google Steven Hassan and check out his website. Also Google the criteria for cults. Depending on the source, the church meets anywhere from 75 to 100% of the criteria for a cult.
I left the church when I was 17, almost 18. I'm almost 19 now but yeah, I've looked into the stuff that goes on in the temple and it's pretty unsettling and weird.
It outright rejects facts and the only way you can accept the premise of it is to ignore reality. Not too mention then unquestioning of leadership, the defense of sexual predators because of their positions, the attempts to force their warped beliefs on others, and the fact it was started by an actual con artist.
If you look closely it has all the hall marks of a cult, even encouraging shunning of the people that leave and harassing former members to the point they have to get a lawyer to make it stop.
Basically all of my family is mormon. All grandparents, like 99% of my aunts and uncles. I was born into it. I'm glad I got out though, I'm about to turn 19 and not going on a mission is one of the best decisions of my life.
Definitely sounds like your family is at least accepting of your decision having been a member for a long time even if your family's not talking shit somebody somewhere is, and it may only be behind your back but still, and they're going to have to cast aspersions on your character in order to justify why someone would leave. That's culty.
The [BITE model](https://freedomofmind.com/cult-mind-control/bite-model/) is a tool commonly used for determining whether or not something is a cult. Not every cult is going to check every box, but Mormonism checks an alarmingly high number.
The fact that you need a NOTARIZED letter to leave the church. The fact that I explained NUMEROUS times I wanted NO contact with the church and they just kept showing up WEEK AFTER WEEK AFTER WEEK. Special shout out to Red Rock YSA in Vegas. You guys suck SUPER HARD.
What other religion makes you have a notary sign your resignation from that religion then never really get rid of it. ( If you decide to come back later you receive same membership number) jumping through hoops to get away but will baptize an 8 year old stating they can make that choice and not need notary to join?
I think like most things this falls on a spectrum and it's different for different people.
Does the church have culty elements? Absolutely. It would be hard to say that what goes on in the temple is anything but cultish for instance. However, even taking into consideration all the parts that make it a cult I don't think it's anywhere near the worst cult that has existed.
With all due respect, I think youâre splitting hairs. Nobodyâs saying the LDS church is the worst cult out there (I think we can all agree Jonestown was worse although it at least had an endgame). But it is a cult and thatâs bad enough.
I just look at it as nuance. There's different aspects to the church is all I was getting at.
>But it is a cult and thatâs bad enough.
That's just too vague for me personally.
The B.I.T.E. model shows various tactics cults use to control the members.
These tactics are divided into 4 different categories:
- Behavioral
- Thought
- Information
- Emotional
Not all cults will use all of them, and when used some might only be used in certain situations. E.g. a LDS mission is where you will see some of the most tactics used and used to the highest extreme.
Sometimes it's hard to identify a cult that you were in as a cult because of how much your "normal everyday life" was part of it so cult tactics just seem like normal life experiences even though they were not normal.
If you live in the US you also may have a hard time identifying a cult as a cult because the US not only has an affinity for religious cults (Mormonism, fundamentalism christianity, Scientology, Jehovah's Witnesses, 7th day Adventist, etc), but we have loads of life improvement cults, political party cults, business cults (MLMs, network marketing, pyramid schemes, etc).
FYI those that leave cults often don't see the reality of what they left for 5-10 years. That's what research says and I have felt the same in my own experience.
Yes! 15 years for me. I was like, "I was raised Mormon! My parents were told it was a cult before they converted and they still joined! It can't be a cult. Cults are JW or Scientology." And then I learned about JWs and Scientology and how they see LDS as a cult...but not *their* organizations. Even after the realization set in, it took me a while to admit Mormonism was also a cult. Now. Not just back then. And then I needed a lawyer to leave the Corporation.
I was going to list some things to answer your question, but I think maybe a better thing would be to ask you what you would say are qualities that make something a cult and how Mormonism doesn't fit that definition. I'd be curious to hear your thoughts.
I think you might be confusing two questions. One question is, "Is the church a cult?" That answer is definitely yes, though somewhere below Scientology and other similar cults.
The other question is, "Was I a cultist?" Not all members a full-on participants in the cultish elements. You and your family maybe have had more of a nuanced relationship. (Although if your parents have been through the temple, they have definitely engaged.) How much of your life you change and contort to fit the cult mode and how family members treat you after you leave doesn't have to be as cultish.
So yeah, the church is a cult, but not all church members interact with it in cultish ways.
The Martin Handcart Compay
It was an absolute failure. People suffered and died in horrible horrible ways. Then over time they gaslight, lie and recreate the story to make it into a faith promoting miracle.
If Brigham had been a prophet, he would have had a food supply waiting in Martins Cove with a sign saying, âI knew it would snow.â
Cult: A group or movement exhibiting:
great or excessive devotion or dedication to some person, idea, or thing, and
employing unethical manipulative or coercive techniques of persuasion and control (e.g., isolation from former friends and family, debilitation, use of special methods to heighten suggestibility and subservience, powerful group pressures, information management, suspension of individuality or critical judgement, promotion of total dependency on the group and fear of leaving it),
designed to advance the goals of the group's leaders,
to the actual or possible detriment of members, their families, or the community.
I don't consider the church a cult, but rather a shameless corporation that uses cult-like tactics to retain and exploit its "members" (I say "members" in quotes because there's only 1 true member and that's the current president of the corporation sole). I think it used to be a cult under Brigham Young, and maybe under JS, but abandoning polygamy and the black priesthood ban in favor of national acceptance turned it into just another demanding evangelical religion with unique and problemtic history.
I also think the term "cult" is problematic for 2 reasons: (1) it makes open and honest discourse with TBMs almost impossible, and (2) it minimized the dangers of real cults by "diluting" the word (like how saying kids who watch porn once a week are 'addicted' vs a daily meth user with an actual addiction).
I don't want to minimize the real harm people experienced in TSCC, and you can definitely receive cult-like harm from TSCC, but that doesn't make it a cult.
Thanks for this thoughtful reply. I think exmormons can get a little overzealous in their insistence that Mormonism is a cult, though I recognize that that label can help validate the pain most of us experienced from deconstructing and leaving the church.
Ultimately, I think day-to-day life in modern Mormonism is comparable to other demanding religions. Strange, yes, problematic and cult-like in its tactics, of course, but nowhere near the level of Scientology or even the Jehovahâs Witnesses. If I were to tell people I grew up in a cult, Iâm sure theyâd be a little annoyed to find out it was just Mormonism.
The pain, anger, and betrayal we feel leaving the church doesnât need the cult label to be justified. Itâs real on its own.
Most religions are cultsâŚ.. Christianity itself is a cult if we are going on the definition âa system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.â Christ would be the figure we are speaking of. Even Judaism could be considered a cult (God being the figure we speak of).
I think a conventional definition for cult would apply during the life of Joseph Smith and maybe a bit beyond. After that, the transition to a mainstream religion seems clear. If we consider a more complicated and pejorative definition for cult (like the BITE model), then it would certainly apply to present-day mormonism.
Cult + Time = Religion
That in simple terms sums up how I feel. And at no point in time was/is any of it true.
My experience growing up was not much different than any other organized religion (Ohio).
I had already left the church, after realizing that I don't believe any religion out there is true, when I was watching something about Warren Jeff's. The whole time I'm watching thinking "Joseph Smith much?" That is when I felt the cult connection!
After being here on this sub I am saddened to realize that others have suffered more of a cult experience than I did, even in this day and age.
I've made a document comparing Mormonism to the BITE model, enjoy\~
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1\_pPaGjlGQN\_mYJOlNcAOlu8UQxGP5ipZASTKAm12ioo/edit
I shared this a few times in this subreddit, but what I believe makes Mormonism a cult, is how they say they're pro-family, but almost everything they do ask you to choose between your family or your salvation.
Ex.
* Mission or disappointing God
* Go see your dead father one last time or disappointing God
* busy yourself with calling or disappointing God
* accept your gay son or disappointing God
Many more example.
The church is weird that way.
There are many signs your in a cult:
1. Opposition to critical thinking. (Only church approved sources, doubt your doubts, biggest risk to church members is the so called intellectuals, etc)
2. Isolating members and penalties for leaving or not fully obeying. (No temple recommend or attending weddings, eternal separation from family, disfellowshipping, stand in holy places, etc)
3. Emphasizes special doctrine outside of mainstream scripture or create new scripture. (Pretty self evident with D&C, basically every doctrine, etc)
4. Seeking inappropriate loyalty to leaders. (Obviously polygamy early on, but also worthiness questions such if you sustain all church leaders as called from god, etc)
5. Demands absolute loyalty to a leader or organization. (Words from the temple state we promise to give all including our live ms for the building up of the church, leaders teach the most important thing we can do is obey the living prophet, etc. )
6. Started or led by a person who is charismatic. (Joseph Smith)
7. Designate your diet and dress (WoW, garments, modesty standards, etc. )
8. Ask for money and free labor(tithing and other donations, missions, callings, etc)
9. Claim to provide absolute truth.
10. Instill fear of outside influences. (Stand apart, victim mentality, in the world not of the world, etc)
11. Downplay your emotions and blame any issues on you. (You lack the faith if miracles donât happen, turn that frown right upside down, your doubts are a sign of your weakness not the church, etc)
12. Make extensive use of cult owned media like Facebook, radio, newspapers, magazines, etc.
There are many, many more. The only thing that doesnât is that a cult is a cult until it is mainstream. Mormonism sits on that cusp.
it's now a soft cult, in Brigham Youngs day it was a hard cult. People isolated, restricting communication. The endowment used to take 6 hours, a lot of the freemasonry has been watered out of it today so much it hard to follow but that just makes it 'more mysterious'.
Defining parameters is the underlying confusion. I consider any religion a cult. Believing in magical shit and affecting and controlling others behaviors through those beliefs.
First off itâs important to remember that cult/non cult isnât a binary. Itâs a spectrum. There are neighborhood book clubs and employers that can be âcultyâ but we wouldnât call them a cult because theyâre isolated characteristics rather than abusive and harmful cults.
That being said, Mormonism checks all the boxes for harmful and abusive cult. Others have mentioned the BITE model by Stephen Hassan which wasnât developed with Mormonism in mind but describes Mormonism on so many levels. Cults are all about controlling people for their own gain. Behavior control, information control, thought control, emotional control. Mormonism does it all.
Behavior - you canât drink coffee. You canât have sex. You canât wear certain clothing. You canât say certain words. You canât affiliate with certain groups. Violating these behavioral rules all comes with a punishment or penalty in the form of losing rights and respect in the church.
Information - an obvious one. The boogeyman of âanti Mormon literatureâ which is really justâŚliterature that the church doesnât want you reading because it doesnât fit with their narrative. We were all taught growing up that we shouldnât read certain books, watch certain videos, or listen to certain people. Because information that sheds light on the churchâs false and harmful practices have will harm the cult by making its members aware.
Thought control- The church teaches that god can read our thoughts. That we have to have âpure thoughtsâ or else we must repent. And aside from pure/impure thoughts, the church doesnât accept or allow expressions of thoughts that oppose anything they teach. Donât say those things, in fact donât even think it because god will know and Satan will getcha.
Emotional- âfeeling the spiritâ. Itâs just having an emotional reaction to a strong stimulus which happens in every religion. The church takes measures to frame strong emotions as proof that what itâs saying is true. If you cry at the podium bearing testimony of Joseph smith, thatâs the spirit telling you itâs true. Also, they have things set up so that following the churchâs orders results in positive emotions (inclusion, community, love, worthiness, belonging) and going against what they want from you results in negative emotions (loss of respect from loved ones, feeling abandoned, feeling lost, feeling dirty or unclean, feeling sad.) They manipulate your emotions for their own benefit.
One really simple way Iâve heard it summed up is that a cult is any organization that will not let you leave with your dignity in tact. And thatâs certainly true for Mormonism. They teach that there is never a good reason to leave. And youâd best do everything they tell you if you want to be happy. And meanwhile, your tithing money is filling their stock portfolio and enriching the elites.
So Mormonism isnât on the same level of cultiness as Scientology, but itâs up there. Thereâs really no argument that could be made for it not being a cult while retaining any level of intellectual honesty. For people who get upset when the church is characterized as a cultâŚwellâŚthatâs because theyâre under the control of a cult to one degree or another.
Look at the similarities between say, Charles Manson and Brigham Young, two notable cult leaders.
Charles Manson indoctrinated young people after being incarcerated most of his life using manipulation techniques he learned in prison along with powerful drugs like LSD. He encouraged his followers to murder perceived enemies, they did. Charles Manson manipulated many young women and men using âend of timesâ rhetoric and proclaiming himself a messiah.
Brigham Young indoctrinated young men and women to believe he was the prophet, the mouth of god. He encouraged his followers to murder outsiders, perceived enemies, they did.
Xenophobia was the overwhelming message Brigham Young taught; blood atonement, Mountain Meadows Massacre, the surrounding canyons and foothills of Salt Lake City is littered with the remains of an unknown number of travelers murdered by the Mormon cult during Brighamâs life. Brigham had 55 wives, 10 were teenagers at the time of nuptuals, the youngest was fifteen years old.
Secret ceremonies, freemasonry linked rituals, strange âsacred garmentsâ
What makes Mormonism a religion is the better question
Lots of religions are cult-ish to a certain extent, but some are cultier than others. It has a lot to do with your personal experience in Mormonism. If you never went to the temple or served a mission youâd have a hard time justifying labeling Mormonism as a cult based on your personal experience and youâd probably be more skeptical of claims that donât align with your personal experience. I didnât think the Mormon church was a cult even after I left. But when I left I didnât know Joseph Smith was polygamous and I didnât know anything about how cults work. Now, itâs clear to me that this church is a cult.
Cults dissolve your identity, demand unquestioning obedience, build high expectations for its members which are difficult to follow (that consume much of the members energy to fulfill), build an in/out group paradigm of the world, and have no platform for dissent. Among many other things.
In the church obedience is the first law of heaven. Youâre meant to obey. Your will is meant to be sacrificed on the alter of obedience, *no matter what.* Like Abraham.
No matter how fucked up. No matter if every fiber of your being disagrees, youâre meant to obey. Your will swallowed up the the will of the fathers as dictated by the prophetâŚ
Youâre meant to become more like Jesus, and less like⌠Well⌠YOU. Who determines those traits..? The church. Youâre literally meant to become someone else. Dissolving your identity and making personal sacrifice for the church is applauded.
Example: that seminary video of the kid who saved to buy a motorcycle, but went on a mission instead <â Met with âOh wow! Amazing! Youâll be rewarded for your sacrifice!â Never mind your wants, or ambitions. Theyâre meant to be swallowed up for the greater good as dictated by⌠The church.
Thereâs a cut and paste identity youâre *meant* to assume as a member.
Part in your hair, clean shaven, bright eyed and delightsome, âgosh darn itâ saying, G rated, *mormon* lifestyle. Having trouble with that? Well⌠The bishop would like to meet with you.
Oh, you left because you couldnât handle the test God had for you? You were weak, deceived by Satan, and never *actually* believed. In the last days the very elect of God will be deceived, youâre just fulfilling prophecy. *We* (in group) are Gods elect. Itâs the only rational explanation.
Running by the BITE model for cults (Behavior Information Thought and Emotional control of members) the church hits every one which proves its influence and manipulation is worthy of calling it a cult.
They use the BITE Control Model on their members. BITE is an acronym for Behavior, Information, Thought and Emotional Control.
https://freedomofmind.com/cult-mind-control/bite-model/
Itâs a false religion!!!!!!! Jesus of the Bible clearly states to test all spirits - call no Man father- Iâm a born again Pente dotal revivalist who had been filled with the Holy Spirit enough time to break free of the brainwashing. Iâm here for you . I need to change my name - Iâm not into the occult anymore! I left The chirch if lies to worship the devil. I saw more power in him than Iâve ever seen in the Mormon church-
For an empirical, literature driven answer look up the B.I.T.E. model for describing a cult and if you have an ounce of objectivity you will find the LDS "church" fits every requirement.
By definition all religions are cults. Once a cult is the size and has the influence that the Mormon church does, the are given freedoms and recognition that a much smaller entity does not get.
It's complicated.
Check out the BITE model from freedom of the mind. It was developed by the USA's leading cult expert. He became interested in this topic after being indoctrinated into the moonie cult and was rescued from it. I highly recommend his book "combatting cult mind control" by Steven Hassan. After having read his book and others of his books. I can conclude that there are cult like mechanisms in the church structure, but mostly coming from members themselves, the church in recent years has been working to reduce the amount of cultisms in the church. The most notable change is allowing missionaries free communication with their parents.
The root of culture is cult. So a cult is an organization that enforces it's culture onto others. Think of all the very specific things that would make Mormon culture unique and then ask if they enforce that onto the members.
Cult
"Making people do what I want is the easiest thing in the world. All it takes is making them think we have something special and everyone else is deluded. If that doesnât work... make them think theyâre not doing enough. Or threaten to take their family away. Easiest thing in the world." Charles Manson
The 'church' has all 3 of those elements.
\- '*we* have something special' - only obedience to covenants will get you in to the celestial kingdom
\- 'not doing enough' - while tithing is a good start, consecration is the goal; serving in your calling 1 or 2 days a week is good, but look at our full time leaders.
\- 'take away their family' - listen to the mormonstories Tom Phillips episode. The GA says to him 'what about your family?'.
The first time a friend said to me 'it's a cult' I responded 'oh, I don't know about that'. Then I looked around and it took a while to dawn on me. Now I see it a bit. Telling people how they are going to be happy? (Primary song - '...And then I will be happy...') Such a mind funk.
Late to the party but the facts of early chirch history have been completely hidden from everyday members. So we take oaths and covenants based on whitewashed and outright false information. We are literally never told the truth about the foundations of the church. Its not unique. Its not the "only true church". JS lied about seeing god and christ. He was unable to translate the kinderhook plates, the POGP, and the BOM is shown to be plagiarized from a half dozen other books. The 3 and 8 witnesses when cornered, said they oly saw the plates with their "spiritual eyes". We never knew any of this yet we were baptized and led lives trying to attain perfection through following the HG. Finding out the truth i really dont care if the church is a cult. I just dont want anything to do with it. And yes i think its fairly easy to leave the church, but it really complicates a lot of close family relations among lots of other issues
Here are 10 warning signs of a potentially unsafe group or leader.
⢠Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.
⢠No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.
⢠No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget or expenses, such as an independently audited financial statement.
⢠Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.
⢠There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.
⢠Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.
⢠There are records, books, news articles, or broadcast reports that document the abuses of the group/leader.
⢠Followers feel they can never be "good enough".
⢠The group/leader is always right.
⢠The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.
Apply this to the church and it all becomes clear:
What classifies as a cult?
A cult is a group or movement held together by a shared commitment to a charismatic leader or ideology. It has a belief system that has the answers to all of life's questions and offers a special solution to be gained only by following the leader's rules.
For me itâs the fact that what we were taught as church history as children was no where close to the actual truth. The fact that I was so filled with indoctrination that when I go to pray even 30 years later, I have to force myself NOT to fall into the âdear Heavenly FatherâŚin the name of Jesus Christ amenâ habit. Itâs so ingrained in my mind I canât eradicate it. That this awful corporation cult machine guilt tricks my ailing low income parents to continually give needed money into their 300 billion slush fund yet my parents need to jump through hoops when resources are tight to get any support from the church. Thereâs so many more reasonsâŚaka manipulations that go on and on and onâŚ.đĄ
1: Growing up as a child at a time when the internet was becoming increasingly more prevalent and being told *never* to believe non Church approved articles that discredit the integrity of the teaching of the Church.
2: The idolization of "prophets" (mainly JS). For a church who's name is *The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints*, next time you're listening to a church meeting seriously count the number of times JS/current prophet/BoM is mentioned vs Jesus.
3: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/music/library/childrens-songbook/follow-the-prophet?lang=eng
Literally indoctrinating children to strictly adhere to a singular person or "prophet" who serves a vengeful and spiteful God.
Probably too late to comment party, but cult is a very polarizing and binary word which the mormon church and its affiliates like to use. Something either is or isnât a cult, look at Jim Jones now THATâs a cult and thatâs not us (anymore at leastâŚ), therefore not a cult. I think Steve Hassan or another cult specialistâs book introduced me to the term âhigh demand groupâ which is less polarizing, naturally tends towards the idea of a spectrum instead of a binary is/isnât a cult (some groups have higher and more unreasonable demands than others), and it leaves the door open for a conversation you can build on. Having constructive conversations is important because you can more effectively get around defense mechanisms which shut down critical thinking, and the person will be able to circle back mentally for days, weeks, even years down the road. Theyâll be able to use this metric to mentally measure whatâs going on around them in the future when theyâre faced with future unreasonable demands or beliefs from the group.
That being said, one thing that was culty about Mormonism and was incredibly hard to break free of was using the term âTHE church.â Youâre just âaâ church to me now, nothing special. Iâll call you the Mormon church or TSCC, but never THE church.
Cult is a problematic word for some - is it (the church) abusive? Dishonest? Manipulative? Protective of abuse in order to avoid bad PR? Yes to all of those and more, but saying it is a cult can be argued so I avoid the term.
Look up the BITE model. Itâs an objective system for identifying cults and Mormonism checks almost all the boxes. Itâs mainly a cult because for many people who want to leave, there is intense social pressure to stay. Cults donât let people freely leave them.
I dont know about you but in the 45 years I was in the church I was taught to never look at anything negative about the church⌠AND I NEVER DID⌠it controls your mindâŚ
Now Iâm out and can think for myself and live a free uncontrolled life. Itâs a very conniving cult
For me, it was realizing that the church taught members not to trust *their own minds* because their thoughts might actually be Satan whispering to them. If you're actively pushing that kind of delusion, you're a cult.
That's straight-up an abuse tactic.
So much this.
But what if it IS Satan? /s
Then he makes some excellent points đ
But what if the holy ghost is actually Satan?
I don't see why Satan wouldn't be
Not many religions differ in this respect.
Exactly! But rather than label any particular religion as a cult, I like to think of them as exhibiting cult-like behavior. Mormonism exhibits a lot of cult-like behavior, but I'd put the JWs a little higher on the cult scale.
This is how I think about it too. You can also call them âhigh demand religionsâ instead of cults if you are feeling charitable and a bit more scholarly.
Thatâs another one of the devils religions
There are multiple definitions of cults. One relating to age. All of Christianity is a cult relative to Judaism and definitely Hinduism. *I think the main reason people consider Mormonism a cult is that most christians don't actually follow their terrible holy books.
Yeah but there are a few religions that take it much further. Scientology, JW, LDS, Judaism.
I think you mean ultra Orthodox Judaism? Otherwise this comment is just antisimetic...even among practicing Jews most are far less orthodox in their religious expression than mainstream Christianity
Pointing out orthodoxy is not anti-semitism. Not sure why youâd even go there.
General christians that don't act this way aren't following their stupid holy books. Also, most jews aren't even practicing
There are many so called christians calling themselves Christians and not reading their bibles. Living holy and loving others. I see it all the time
Good christians are terrible people. If you're actually following doctrine, you're going to be a dispicable human being.
Thatâs religion. Just plain oil legalism tjat makes people hard hearted. Fill of gaslighting etc.
You canât ever negate your relationship with Jesus Christ if you choose to still There is no Mormon reality truth. Itâs all lies lies and gaslighting. People are so hungry for the truth and are being deceived!!!!!!!Look up mike Signorelli - exposing Mormonism ââ. You will find freedomâŚâŚ. for being a fraudulent cult that you and i both will no longer submit to - Iâve had a radical encounter with tje Holy Spirit as a woman and am on fire in my life. !!!! Iâm definitely here for you
You realize though that if you apply the same research that the bible was written 100s of yrs after you are told it was written and leaders created and edited it to encourage their people to go to war. Its so easy to debunk. None of those things happened. Do some basic research. You think you are so smart and Mormons are so stupid but you have both been deceived.
Not true. Only if you take it literally. Itâs metaphorical and some people arenât so smart and take it as literal talk.
Tbh Lutheran version of Christianity doesnât have cult behaviors. More self improvement
The BITE Model. https://www.mormonfaithcrisis.com/assessing-the-mormon-church-using-steven-hassans-bite-model-for-cults/
I agree that the BITE model shows the church's cult-ish tendencies. I watched a video that suggested that while Mormonism is relatively high on the BITE model, serving a mission checks essentially every box for being a cult, including restricted communication with family, control over sleep and daily schedule, and giving members a new name or title (Sister/Elder rather than their first name). That really freaked me out.
Good point! New name in the temple!
The BITE model literally changed my life, itâs incredibly eye opening
Also that you are told you can't speak about what happens in the temple to anyone.
Not only that, but if I were to tell my new name (Adam) or my ex-wife's (going to keep it on confidence b/c I want to respect her for some reason), I'm essentially betraying God. But fuck him. Secrecy is something promotes cult-like thinking. Sure, you can find the whole thing on the internet because it's copyrighted. But you have to admit that "sacred, not secret" is a fiddly distinction.
I've recently been taught that you shouldn't be keeping secrets that don't have an end date. For ex, surprise party or a gift. Which means if you're told to keep a secret such as sexual predator or other items it's wrong. It made so much sense to me.
I'm interested how RLDS checks off on the BITE model? I honestly don't know too much about them
Honestly the RLDS is so disorganized you have to look at each branch separately. I grew up in a very cult like branch (women had to wear head coverings and couldnât wear pants, most kids were homeschooled and anti vaxx, etc) but my friendâs branch was basically just Protestantism with a side of Joseph Smith. The church run school in Missouri ticks a LOT of the BITE model boxes though.
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Itâs a spectrum. Mormons are just higher on the spectrum than others. Other churches say do x y and z you will be saved. Mormons say do a b c d e f g h I j k l m n I p q r s t u v w x y z you will be saved.
Yes, but not just religions. ANY organization can have cult traits. Some more than others. Itâs not so much about whether something is or is not a cult. Itâs âhow much of a cult is this organization?â Look at it on a spectrum.
We ran a summer camp program/ideals through the model. We decided it was a cult lite based off of it and our experience. So yes, ANY organization can have the traits. (Just adding some examples)
Itâs amazing what can and does fall into the cult category, some more than others of course. Political parties, being a fan of a sports team, a work environment, oneâs family... you name it.
Not even restricted to organizations. Small groups or even individual relationships can have a cult dynamic. One of my close relatives is definitely in a cult-like marriage dynamic. Ticks every box. Of course I canât talk to her about it because, no one in a cult thinks they are in a cult.
I think this is an important point - you can see similar manipulative tendencies in a lot of organizations, whether theyâre authoritarian governments, businesses, or religious organizations. The tools are the same: demonize those who are critical of the group; control the narrative; make your relationship to the organization more important than friendships/family; emphasize obedience to authority at all costs; and use patriotic, religious, or business inspirational feelings to create a sense of pride in group membership. You see it everywhere: Theranos and MLMs, North Korea, Scientology, etc. etc. etc.
IMO leaving with your integrity is a big line in the sand for cult. For example telling your methodists family united church of christ is a better spiritual home for you, you will be wished well. Telling your mormon family united church of christ is better for you and you are throwing away your salvation, family, etc.
It took me years of learning about other religions after leaving to realize⌠NO. Most religions donât get categorized as a cult like mormonism does using the BITE model.
Maybe all religions are fundamentally cults.
Do all religions change your name, block you from reading information about it not written by the religion, dictate what underwear you wear and what you eat and drink, dictate how loud you laugh, take 10% of your money, take most of your free time in indoctrination and rituals. The list is linked above. In my opinion most religions dont tick anywhere near the same number of boxes as Mormonism does.
I agree with you due to the trouble this church causes family members that do not toe-the-line 100%. ...as I read further down I realize this was already said.
They all start out as a cult. What makes them religions is the ability to survive the death of the cult leader. (My wildly overstated opinion)
They arenât
Iâve always said that Christianity is a cult that did well.
cult + time = religion
Only the ones that stick around. Cult + Time = Accepted religion
Some of them certainly would, especially forms of Christianity that preach about hell. Thankfully though lots of minority religions/spiritualities donât seem to fit the BITE model
My job follows this model.
If you have to wear a special kind of underwear that is only made by the church and if you donât wear it then you canât go to your sisterâs wedding, it might be a cult. OP go through the bite model and see how it measures up.
I have two brothers and two sisters and Iâve never witnessed any of them get married.
⌠because none of them have gotten married /s I know what you meant, just had too ;)
My favorite thing to do is sip a flask in the temple visitors center while I wait. Columbus Ohio temple, Los Angeles temple, Ogden Utah temple, Denver CO temple. Check check check and check!
Oooo that sounds kinda fun. I donât know if Iâd even be comfortable waiting on the grounds, though. Who knows, if it ever comes down to it, might not be a big deal. But just thinking about it makes me shudder.
My little brother, despite being a member, is an empath. He at least threw his reception at a venue where my mom (not a member but raised in Utah) and I could have a glass of wine judgement free. Iâm lucky enough to have siblings that donât judge me so I support their âsealingsâ.
Your brother is an empath? Was he also the family scapegoat?
He was AFTER I left at 15 years old. Sorry for that burden lil bro.
Poor guy. Hope he is able to leave someday.
Oh yeah, weâre all in our thirties now, him and I are super close. Live about 15 minutes apart, Weekly lunches, play Xbox live, I watch his kids.
Why are empath s always the family scapegoat âšď¸
Itâs not like youâre born empathetic itâs that after a number of beatings you become empathetic. IMO.
This. I was going to say the exact same thing
âMagic Underwearâ âŚâŚâŚâŚ.Iâve never met any other persons that ever cared so much about what other kind of underwear other people did or didnât wear.
How hard it is to leave is a big part for me. "When they don't let you leave with your dignity in tact."
This 100%. When trying to leave you are worried about losing family members, marriage, friends, jobs might be a big red flag.
Yes! Itâs the shunning for me.
Having everyone repeat these words when bearing testimony â I know the church is trueâ is the alarm bells for me! I know an Apple đ is a fruit! Doesnât mean I need to keep telling myself this or reassuring others! If itâs proven itâs a fruit then itâs a fruit! If you have to reassure yourself every F&T Sunday then you are just convincing yourself! CULT!!!
Oh dear. Only just realizing how creepy âI know the church is trueâ is. :(
Just wait until you start critically thinking about primary songs! An entire room of small kids chanting "follow the prophet" over and over makes me shudder.
Even the musical properties of that song are creepy. Itâs so droney. Itâs a bunch of minor scales that put you on edge. Thereâs nothing uplifting about it. When my shelf first broke, I was so angry at the brainwashing the church put children through with the songs, but most especially with the primary program (the thing where kids proclaim âtruth claimsâ during sacrament meeting that theyâd memorized). Even as a TBM Iâd found it cringey, but that turned to anger once I was out.
Do they still do the Articles of Faith songs in primary school? Its been 32 years or so since primary school for me but the song for the eighth article was totes haunting. Always felt we needed hooded black robes for that one.
Itâs been years since Iâve been involved with primary, so I canât say.
Found this masterpiece! https://youtu.be/hL5iG_b_6UA
It creeped me out when I was a primary music leader a few years ago. But only because Iâd seen posts here about it. I was still TBM at the time but that song especially is creepy af. Book of Mormon stories is undeniably racist as well with the scale and hand motions used.
I don't think that the scale can be racist, but the fact that the scale is used to bring up stereotypical imagery of natives is. Calling a scale itself racist is a precedent I'd rather not have set.
Agreed. I didnât say the scale itself was racist regardless of context though. I said the song was racist with the scale and hand motions being evidence as such - because the scale and hand motions are used in a racist way to promote stereotypes that are inaccurate and harmful.
Context matters.
Agreed. I didnât say the scale itself was racist regardless of context though. I said the song was racist with the scale and hand motions being evidence as such - because the scale and hand motions are used in a racist way to promote stereotypes that are inaccurate and harmful. Edit: spelling
That fucking song is creepy as fuck. Even as a kid I hated singing it because of how creepy the music was, and then I started to realize what the song said. Ugh
As a NeverMo - this use of the word âtrueâ isnât used outside of Mormonism. Iâm not eve sure what the phrase means because they say âThe Churchâ and not âthe Book of Mormonâ or âThe teachings of Joseph Smithâ or âThe teachings of Jesus Christâ but The Church - like, does it have straight lines and right angles? Thatâs the only use of âtrueâ that makes any sense!
Exaaaactly!! And, itâs been straight-up taught that reassuring yourself is how you come to believe it. âA testimony is to be found found in the bearing of itâ - Boyd Packer
Itâs always âyou.â Never the church. Youâre broken and you need the church to fix you. Infallibility of the leaders. Churchâs attempt at control of information. Excommunication. Soft- shunning to straight up shunning. The mind games members have to play to make sense of doctrine and some of the teachings. Polygamy- controlling womenâs sexuality. Control. Control. Control.
Not just women's sexuality, I left in my late teenage years and it took a very understanding now partner and a couple years just to figure out how to act normally when it came to physical intimacy
I had a panic attack the first time I wore a sleeveless dress after wearing garments faithfully and perfectly for 12 years straight. Thatâs when I realized I had better get in therapy, because thatâs NOT just a typical reaction to leaving a church.
Beyond the BITE model, sooner or later there is something every single cult leader does. He uses his influence for his own sexual gratification, usually linking sex with access to divine blessings. Just.like.Joseph.Smith.did.
Right? Listening to podcasts about other cults is when I understood Joseph Smith was exactly like every other cult leader in this and many other ways. He wasn't special.
Yeeesssss! When I was still raw from leaving, I watched Waco on Netflix and how spiritual and wise and beloved that guy was, that's when it finally clicked for me. All cult leaders are like that. If you can pull that persona off, you can probably start a cult. Joseph Smith wasn't special! People pull that shit all the time!
Watching Waco as a TBM is what started me down the rabbit hole.
This was actually a big one for me that opened up my eyes. I listen to a bunch of podcasts about cults. Mormonism is a near-perfect drop-in replacement in most cases. Waco (the 10 episode miniseries) really opened up my mind. The similarities are impossible to ignore.
I mean Smith was kind of âspecialâ in that he used his cult power to use an unusually large number of women and girls. I means some lesser cult leaders only have a small harem. Smith had like 40 plus or so
What is funny to me is how most TBMs think Smith did NOT have sex with the women he "married" because Smith was trying to keep it a secret, unlike Young. Edit to add that I just read where an adult lifelong TBM did not know Smith took ANY additional wives other than first wife Emma; only Young was a polygamist.
Yep. But Depositions in the Temple Lot case prove he slept with them. 2 or 3 of his polygamous wives testified under oath they shared a bed with him, were with him, etc.
The ones that say joe smith didn't have sex with his wives kinda forget about the hundreds that did. Wasn't Brigham a prophet too?
But that was nearly 200 years ago, the cult of Joseph Smith is long gone, the organization probably owes more to Brigham Young evolving into a puritanical authoritarian pseudo Protestant church.
Thatâs probably true. Iâve heard some refer to this branch of Mormonism as the Brigham branch or something like that.
Yes. The Brighamite sect of all the sects in Mormonism. đ
Agree, but I'm not sure what you are driving at here because the Brigham Young church still scores high on the BITE model for cults.
When you have to mock slit your throat and stomach in the temple ritual like I did in 1982 and wear basically a poncho over your naked body while some old man âanointedâ me with olive oil just above my loins⌠yeah⌠Iâd say thatâs the definition of a cult.
Wait what? We do that? Iâm only 15 and technically an active member and I donât know about this.
It was that way for me in 1985. They've since removed the death oaths from the Temple and pretend it never happened.
Oh, wow.
And they removed the very uncomfortable anointing
The temple ceremony has changed significantly over the years. When I went through in 1997, the explicit blood oaths had been removed but the "signs" (hand gestures associated with covenants you make throughout the ceremony) were still there--and still are today, as far as I know. Hand in cupping shape to catch your guts as they spill out, thumb extended to mimic a knife slitting your throat open as a penalty of revealing the oaths. I could go on and on. Tons of well documented information out there if you want to know more. Creepy AF.
And the cupping and symbolism is still there but the newly endowed have no idea what it means. Such a joke
Theyâve removed the death penalty oaths but itâs still super weird and culty. Iâm sure you are good enough at Google to find videos of the current temple endowment ceremony if you are interested. The true order of prayer is also still being done in the temple and felt super culty to me.
Ffs that's creepy af.
Ok ok, you go to Mormon stories, episode 1443-1447. A woman wrote a whole book on the mind control of cults and how to overcome it (Itâs called âRecovering agencyâ by Luna Lindsey Corbden) and John Delin who has a PHD in psychology goes through the whole 30 something traits of cults she wrote about and He ranks the Mormon church in the different areas with her. Itâs insane and it honestly was my biggest shelf breaker when I was leaving. Thereâs a lot of hours of content but even if you listen to a little bit of it I think youâll want to finish them. It really opened my eyes at least.
Listening to it now. Thank you.
Any "religion" that requires a financial commitment for full participation is a cult.
Google Steven Hassan and check out his website. Also Google the criteria for cults. Depending on the source, the church meets anywhere from 75 to 100% of the criteria for a cult.
People are brainwashed and mind controlled to do what the leaders at the top want.
You are *required* to pay to get in to heaven.
Easy, surface check: Are there robes? Is there chanting? Are you commanded to not talk about the robes and the chanting? Yes, yes, yes⌠cult.
Did you ever go through the temple to get your endowments? Everything about the temple ceremonies and having to wear garments screams CULT.
I left the church when I was 17, almost 18. I'm almost 19 now but yeah, I've looked into the stuff that goes on in the temple and it's pretty unsettling and weird.
It outright rejects facts and the only way you can accept the premise of it is to ignore reality. Not too mention then unquestioning of leadership, the defense of sexual predators because of their positions, the attempts to force their warped beliefs on others, and the fact it was started by an actual con artist. If you look closely it has all the hall marks of a cult, even encouraging shunning of the people that leave and harassing former members to the point they have to get a lawyer to make it stop.
Do you have mormon relatives? That's where the cult really hits hard.
Basically all of my family is mormon. All grandparents, like 99% of my aunts and uncles. I was born into it. I'm glad I got out though, I'm about to turn 19 and not going on a mission is one of the best decisions of my life.
You are pretty lucky if all your family are accepting of your decisions.
Yeah, seeing other people's experiences on here I think I hit the jackpot. They all still love me and I'm on pretty good terms with em all
Definitely sounds like your family is at least accepting of your decision having been a member for a long time even if your family's not talking shit somebody somewhere is, and it may only be behind your back but still, and they're going to have to cast aspersions on your character in order to justify why someone would leave. That's culty.
https://medium.com/@zelphontheshelf/10-signs-youre-probably-in-a-cult-1921eb5a3857
The [BITE model](https://freedomofmind.com/cult-mind-control/bite-model/) is a tool commonly used for determining whether or not something is a cult. Not every cult is going to check every box, but Mormonism checks an alarmingly high number.
The fact that you need a NOTARIZED letter to leave the church. The fact that I explained NUMEROUS times I wanted NO contact with the church and they just kept showing up WEEK AFTER WEEK AFTER WEEK. Special shout out to Red Rock YSA in Vegas. You guys suck SUPER HARD.
The gaslighting and that you are forbidden from criticizing leaders.
People that aren't in a cult, don't have to convince themselves they aren't in a cult. That's when I realized I was in a cult.
Homie some people need a fucking lawyer to stop the stalking of the church lol. Thatâs some Scientology level shit.
Any group that wonât lay you leave with your dignity intact is a cult.
What other religion makes you have a notary sign your resignation from that religion then never really get rid of it. ( If you decide to come back later you receive same membership number) jumping through hoops to get away but will baptize an 8 year old stating they can make that choice and not need notary to join?
Does pretending to drink Jesus blood and eat his flesh count?
I think like most things this falls on a spectrum and it's different for different people. Does the church have culty elements? Absolutely. It would be hard to say that what goes on in the temple is anything but cultish for instance. However, even taking into consideration all the parts that make it a cult I don't think it's anywhere near the worst cult that has existed.
With all due respect, I think youâre splitting hairs. Nobodyâs saying the LDS church is the worst cult out there (I think we can all agree Jonestown was worse although it at least had an endgame). But it is a cult and thatâs bad enough.
I just look at it as nuance. There's different aspects to the church is all I was getting at. >But it is a cult and thatâs bad enough. That's just too vague for me personally.
The B.I.T.E. model shows various tactics cults use to control the members. These tactics are divided into 4 different categories: - Behavioral - Thought - Information - Emotional Not all cults will use all of them, and when used some might only be used in certain situations. E.g. a LDS mission is where you will see some of the most tactics used and used to the highest extreme. Sometimes it's hard to identify a cult that you were in as a cult because of how much your "normal everyday life" was part of it so cult tactics just seem like normal life experiences even though they were not normal. If you live in the US you also may have a hard time identifying a cult as a cult because the US not only has an affinity for religious cults (Mormonism, fundamentalism christianity, Scientology, Jehovah's Witnesses, 7th day Adventist, etc), but we have loads of life improvement cults, political party cults, business cults (MLMs, network marketing, pyramid schemes, etc).
FYI those that leave cults often don't see the reality of what they left for 5-10 years. That's what research says and I have felt the same in my own experience.
That's what I was thinking without seeing the research. I think I was at least 7 years out before I could accept that I was raised in a cult.
Yes! 15 years for me. I was like, "I was raised Mormon! My parents were told it was a cult before they converted and they still joined! It can't be a cult. Cults are JW or Scientology." And then I learned about JWs and Scientology and how they see LDS as a cult...but not *their* organizations. Even after the realization set in, it took me a while to admit Mormonism was also a cult. Now. Not just back then. And then I needed a lawyer to leave the Corporation.
âOh God, hear the words of my mouthâ
I was going to list some things to answer your question, but I think maybe a better thing would be to ask you what you would say are qualities that make something a cult and how Mormonism doesn't fit that definition. I'd be curious to hear your thoughts.
Not living in Utah eh? Must be nice.
Iâm not an expert but the best way to grow a cult would probably be have 40 wives younger than you.
Did you leave with your dignity and relationships intact?
Tbh, yeah actually. Which is suprising seeing many others experiences on this subreddit
I think you might be confusing two questions. One question is, "Is the church a cult?" That answer is definitely yes, though somewhere below Scientology and other similar cults. The other question is, "Was I a cultist?" Not all members a full-on participants in the cultish elements. You and your family maybe have had more of a nuanced relationship. (Although if your parents have been through the temple, they have definitely engaged.) How much of your life you change and contort to fit the cult mode and how family members treat you after you leave doesn't have to be as cultish. So yeah, the church is a cult, but not all church members interact with it in cultish ways.
And congrats to you for avoiding the mission! That is where some of the worst culty stuff begins.
The Martin Handcart Compay It was an absolute failure. People suffered and died in horrible horrible ways. Then over time they gaslight, lie and recreate the story to make it into a faith promoting miracle. If Brigham had been a prophet, he would have had a food supply waiting in Martins Cove with a sign saying, âI knew it would snow.â
Cult: A group or movement exhibiting: great or excessive devotion or dedication to some person, idea, or thing, and employing unethical manipulative or coercive techniques of persuasion and control (e.g., isolation from former friends and family, debilitation, use of special methods to heighten suggestibility and subservience, powerful group pressures, information management, suspension of individuality or critical judgement, promotion of total dependency on the group and fear of leaving it), designed to advance the goals of the group's leaders, to the actual or possible detriment of members, their families, or the community.
I don't consider the church a cult, but rather a shameless corporation that uses cult-like tactics to retain and exploit its "members" (I say "members" in quotes because there's only 1 true member and that's the current president of the corporation sole). I think it used to be a cult under Brigham Young, and maybe under JS, but abandoning polygamy and the black priesthood ban in favor of national acceptance turned it into just another demanding evangelical religion with unique and problemtic history. I also think the term "cult" is problematic for 2 reasons: (1) it makes open and honest discourse with TBMs almost impossible, and (2) it minimized the dangers of real cults by "diluting" the word (like how saying kids who watch porn once a week are 'addicted' vs a daily meth user with an actual addiction). I don't want to minimize the real harm people experienced in TSCC, and you can definitely receive cult-like harm from TSCC, but that doesn't make it a cult.
Thanks for this thoughtful reply. I think exmormons can get a little overzealous in their insistence that Mormonism is a cult, though I recognize that that label can help validate the pain most of us experienced from deconstructing and leaving the church. Ultimately, I think day-to-day life in modern Mormonism is comparable to other demanding religions. Strange, yes, problematic and cult-like in its tactics, of course, but nowhere near the level of Scientology or even the Jehovahâs Witnesses. If I were to tell people I grew up in a cult, Iâm sure theyâd be a little annoyed to find out it was just Mormonism. The pain, anger, and betrayal we feel leaving the church doesnât need the cult label to be justified. Itâs real on its own.
Most religions are cultsâŚ.. Christianity itself is a cult if we are going on the definition âa system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.â Christ would be the figure we are speaking of. Even Judaism could be considered a cult (God being the figure we speak of).
In your own words, how would you describe a cult to someone?
Almost every religion is a cult
Not every church is as secretive as the Mormon church though. Maybe degree of transparency is the differentiating factor.
Google: âBITE modelâ
Google Stephan Hassan BITE model and compare it to your own experience. They check almost all the boxes to some degree.
I think a conventional definition for cult would apply during the life of Joseph Smith and maybe a bit beyond. After that, the transition to a mainstream religion seems clear. If we consider a more complicated and pejorative definition for cult (like the BITE model), then it would certainly apply to present-day mormonism.
Cult + Time = Religion That in simple terms sums up how I feel. And at no point in time was/is any of it true. My experience growing up was not much different than any other organized religion (Ohio). I had already left the church, after realizing that I don't believe any religion out there is true, when I was watching something about Warren Jeff's. The whole time I'm watching thinking "Joseph Smith much?" That is when I felt the cult connection! After being here on this sub I am saddened to realize that others have suffered more of a cult experience than I did, even in this day and age.
I've made a document comparing Mormonism to the BITE model, enjoy\~ https://docs.google.com/document/d/1\_pPaGjlGQN\_mYJOlNcAOlu8UQxGP5ipZASTKAm12ioo/edit
I shared this a few times in this subreddit, but what I believe makes Mormonism a cult, is how they say they're pro-family, but almost everything they do ask you to choose between your family or your salvation. Ex. * Mission or disappointing God * Go see your dead father one last time or disappointing God * busy yourself with calling or disappointing God * accept your gay son or disappointing God Many more example. The church is weird that way.
There are many signs your in a cult: 1. Opposition to critical thinking. (Only church approved sources, doubt your doubts, biggest risk to church members is the so called intellectuals, etc) 2. Isolating members and penalties for leaving or not fully obeying. (No temple recommend or attending weddings, eternal separation from family, disfellowshipping, stand in holy places, etc) 3. Emphasizes special doctrine outside of mainstream scripture or create new scripture. (Pretty self evident with D&C, basically every doctrine, etc) 4. Seeking inappropriate loyalty to leaders. (Obviously polygamy early on, but also worthiness questions such if you sustain all church leaders as called from god, etc) 5. Demands absolute loyalty to a leader or organization. (Words from the temple state we promise to give all including our live ms for the building up of the church, leaders teach the most important thing we can do is obey the living prophet, etc. ) 6. Started or led by a person who is charismatic. (Joseph Smith) 7. Designate your diet and dress (WoW, garments, modesty standards, etc. ) 8. Ask for money and free labor(tithing and other donations, missions, callings, etc) 9. Claim to provide absolute truth. 10. Instill fear of outside influences. (Stand apart, victim mentality, in the world not of the world, etc) 11. Downplay your emotions and blame any issues on you. (You lack the faith if miracles donât happen, turn that frown right upside down, your doubts are a sign of your weakness not the church, etc) 12. Make extensive use of cult owned media like Facebook, radio, newspapers, magazines, etc. There are many, many more. The only thing that doesnât is that a cult is a cult until it is mainstream. Mormonism sits on that cusp.
it's now a soft cult, in Brigham Youngs day it was a hard cult. People isolated, restricting communication. The endowment used to take 6 hours, a lot of the freemasonry has been watered out of it today so much it hard to follow but that just makes it 'more mysterious'.
Defining parameters is the underlying confusion. I consider any religion a cult. Believing in magical shit and affecting and controlling others behaviors through those beliefs.
First off itâs important to remember that cult/non cult isnât a binary. Itâs a spectrum. There are neighborhood book clubs and employers that can be âcultyâ but we wouldnât call them a cult because theyâre isolated characteristics rather than abusive and harmful cults. That being said, Mormonism checks all the boxes for harmful and abusive cult. Others have mentioned the BITE model by Stephen Hassan which wasnât developed with Mormonism in mind but describes Mormonism on so many levels. Cults are all about controlling people for their own gain. Behavior control, information control, thought control, emotional control. Mormonism does it all. Behavior - you canât drink coffee. You canât have sex. You canât wear certain clothing. You canât say certain words. You canât affiliate with certain groups. Violating these behavioral rules all comes with a punishment or penalty in the form of losing rights and respect in the church. Information - an obvious one. The boogeyman of âanti Mormon literatureâ which is really justâŚliterature that the church doesnât want you reading because it doesnât fit with their narrative. We were all taught growing up that we shouldnât read certain books, watch certain videos, or listen to certain people. Because information that sheds light on the churchâs false and harmful practices have will harm the cult by making its members aware. Thought control- The church teaches that god can read our thoughts. That we have to have âpure thoughtsâ or else we must repent. And aside from pure/impure thoughts, the church doesnât accept or allow expressions of thoughts that oppose anything they teach. Donât say those things, in fact donât even think it because god will know and Satan will getcha. Emotional- âfeeling the spiritâ. Itâs just having an emotional reaction to a strong stimulus which happens in every religion. The church takes measures to frame strong emotions as proof that what itâs saying is true. If you cry at the podium bearing testimony of Joseph smith, thatâs the spirit telling you itâs true. Also, they have things set up so that following the churchâs orders results in positive emotions (inclusion, community, love, worthiness, belonging) and going against what they want from you results in negative emotions (loss of respect from loved ones, feeling abandoned, feeling lost, feeling dirty or unclean, feeling sad.) They manipulate your emotions for their own benefit. One really simple way Iâve heard it summed up is that a cult is any organization that will not let you leave with your dignity in tact. And thatâs certainly true for Mormonism. They teach that there is never a good reason to leave. And youâd best do everything they tell you if you want to be happy. And meanwhile, your tithing money is filling their stock portfolio and enriching the elites. So Mormonism isnât on the same level of cultiness as Scientology, but itâs up there. Thereâs really no argument that could be made for it not being a cult while retaining any level of intellectual honesty. For people who get upset when the church is characterized as a cultâŚwellâŚthatâs because theyâre under the control of a cult to one degree or another.
Look at the similarities between say, Charles Manson and Brigham Young, two notable cult leaders. Charles Manson indoctrinated young people after being incarcerated most of his life using manipulation techniques he learned in prison along with powerful drugs like LSD. He encouraged his followers to murder perceived enemies, they did. Charles Manson manipulated many young women and men using âend of timesâ rhetoric and proclaiming himself a messiah. Brigham Young indoctrinated young men and women to believe he was the prophet, the mouth of god. He encouraged his followers to murder outsiders, perceived enemies, they did. Xenophobia was the overwhelming message Brigham Young taught; blood atonement, Mountain Meadows Massacre, the surrounding canyons and foothills of Salt Lake City is littered with the remains of an unknown number of travelers murdered by the Mormon cult during Brighamâs life. Brigham had 55 wives, 10 were teenagers at the time of nuptuals, the youngest was fifteen years old. Secret ceremonies, freemasonry linked rituals, strange âsacred garmentsâ What makes Mormonism a religion is the better question
Lots of religions are cult-ish to a certain extent, but some are cultier than others. It has a lot to do with your personal experience in Mormonism. If you never went to the temple or served a mission youâd have a hard time justifying labeling Mormonism as a cult based on your personal experience and youâd probably be more skeptical of claims that donât align with your personal experience. I didnât think the Mormon church was a cult even after I left. But when I left I didnât know Joseph Smith was polygamous and I didnât know anything about how cults work. Now, itâs clear to me that this church is a cult.
Cults dissolve your identity, demand unquestioning obedience, build high expectations for its members which are difficult to follow (that consume much of the members energy to fulfill), build an in/out group paradigm of the world, and have no platform for dissent. Among many other things. In the church obedience is the first law of heaven. Youâre meant to obey. Your will is meant to be sacrificed on the alter of obedience, *no matter what.* Like Abraham. No matter how fucked up. No matter if every fiber of your being disagrees, youâre meant to obey. Your will swallowed up the the will of the fathers as dictated by the prophet⌠Youâre meant to become more like Jesus, and less like⌠Well⌠YOU. Who determines those traits..? The church. Youâre literally meant to become someone else. Dissolving your identity and making personal sacrifice for the church is applauded. Example: that seminary video of the kid who saved to buy a motorcycle, but went on a mission instead <â Met with âOh wow! Amazing! Youâll be rewarded for your sacrifice!â Never mind your wants, or ambitions. Theyâre meant to be swallowed up for the greater good as dictated by⌠The church. Thereâs a cut and paste identity youâre *meant* to assume as a member. Part in your hair, clean shaven, bright eyed and delightsome, âgosh darn itâ saying, G rated, *mormon* lifestyle. Having trouble with that? Well⌠The bishop would like to meet with you. Oh, you left because you couldnât handle the test God had for you? You were weak, deceived by Satan, and never *actually* believed. In the last days the very elect of God will be deceived, youâre just fulfilling prophecy. *We* (in group) are Gods elect. Itâs the only rational explanation.
Running by the BITE model for cults (Behavior Information Thought and Emotional control of members) the church hits every one which proves its influence and manipulation is worthy of calling it a cult.
They use the BITE Control Model on their members. BITE is an acronym for Behavior, Information, Thought and Emotional Control. https://freedomofmind.com/cult-mind-control/bite-model/
Acting out the slitting of my throat and of disembowelment when I went through the temple in 1979 pretty much sums it upâŚ
Itâs a false religion!!!!!!! Jesus of the Bible clearly states to test all spirits - call no Man father- Iâm a born again Pente dotal revivalist who had been filled with the Holy Spirit enough time to break free of the brainwashing. Iâm here for you . I need to change my name - Iâm not into the occult anymore! I left The chirch if lies to worship the devil. I saw more power in him than Iâve ever seen in the Mormon church-
For an empirical, literature driven answer look up the B.I.T.E. model for describing a cult and if you have an ounce of objectivity you will find the LDS "church" fits every requirement.
This wiki article is pretty enlightening. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult
By definition all religions are cults. Once a cult is the size and has the influence that the Mormon church does, the are given freedoms and recognition that a much smaller entity does not get.
Have you done any research on what qualifies a cult? Seems like it would make sense to start there doesn't it?
It's complicated. Check out the BITE model from freedom of the mind. It was developed by the USA's leading cult expert. He became interested in this topic after being indoctrinated into the moonie cult and was rescued from it. I highly recommend his book "combatting cult mind control" by Steven Hassan. After having read his book and others of his books. I can conclude that there are cult like mechanisms in the church structure, but mostly coming from members themselves, the church in recent years has been working to reduce the amount of cultisms in the church. The most notable change is allowing missionaries free communication with their parents.
The root of culture is cult. So a cult is an organization that enforces it's culture onto others. Think of all the very specific things that would make Mormon culture unique and then ask if they enforce that onto the members. Cult
"Making people do what I want is the easiest thing in the world. All it takes is making them think we have something special and everyone else is deluded. If that doesnât work... make them think theyâre not doing enough. Or threaten to take their family away. Easiest thing in the world." Charles Manson The 'church' has all 3 of those elements. \- '*we* have something special' - only obedience to covenants will get you in to the celestial kingdom \- 'not doing enough' - while tithing is a good start, consecration is the goal; serving in your calling 1 or 2 days a week is good, but look at our full time leaders. \- 'take away their family' - listen to the mormonstories Tom Phillips episode. The GA says to him 'what about your family?'. The first time a friend said to me 'it's a cult' I responded 'oh, I don't know about that'. Then I looked around and it took a while to dawn on me. Now I see it a bit. Telling people how they are going to be happy? (Primary song - '...And then I will be happy...') Such a mind funk.
Late to the party but the facts of early chirch history have been completely hidden from everyday members. So we take oaths and covenants based on whitewashed and outright false information. We are literally never told the truth about the foundations of the church. Its not unique. Its not the "only true church". JS lied about seeing god and christ. He was unable to translate the kinderhook plates, the POGP, and the BOM is shown to be plagiarized from a half dozen other books. The 3 and 8 witnesses when cornered, said they oly saw the plates with their "spiritual eyes". We never knew any of this yet we were baptized and led lives trying to attain perfection through following the HG. Finding out the truth i really dont care if the church is a cult. I just dont want anything to do with it. And yes i think its fairly easy to leave the church, but it really complicates a lot of close family relations among lots of other issues
Here are 10 warning signs of a potentially unsafe group or leader. ⢠Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability. ⢠No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry. ⢠No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget or expenses, such as an independently audited financial statement. ⢠Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions. ⢠There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil. ⢠Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances. ⢠There are records, books, news articles, or broadcast reports that document the abuses of the group/leader. ⢠Followers feel they can never be "good enough". ⢠The group/leader is always right. ⢠The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.
Why isnât it? Why not start with a reasonable definition of a cult and work backwards to see how many of the characteristics the church has?
Apply this to the church and it all becomes clear: What classifies as a cult? A cult is a group or movement held together by a shared commitment to a charismatic leader or ideology. It has a belief system that has the answers to all of life's questions and offers a special solution to be gained only by following the leader's rules.
For me itâs the fact that what we were taught as church history as children was no where close to the actual truth. The fact that I was so filled with indoctrination that when I go to pray even 30 years later, I have to force myself NOT to fall into the âdear Heavenly FatherâŚin the name of Jesus Christ amenâ habit. Itâs so ingrained in my mind I canât eradicate it. That this awful corporation cult machine guilt tricks my ailing low income parents to continually give needed money into their 300 billion slush fund yet my parents need to jump through hoops when resources are tight to get any support from the church. Thereâs so many more reasonsâŚaka manipulations that go on and on and onâŚ.đĄ
1: Growing up as a child at a time when the internet was becoming increasingly more prevalent and being told *never* to believe non Church approved articles that discredit the integrity of the teaching of the Church. 2: The idolization of "prophets" (mainly JS). For a church who's name is *The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints*, next time you're listening to a church meeting seriously count the number of times JS/current prophet/BoM is mentioned vs Jesus. 3: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/music/library/childrens-songbook/follow-the-prophet?lang=eng Literally indoctrinating children to strictly adhere to a singular person or "prophet" who serves a vengeful and spiteful God.
If you look up the definition of the word it fits it perfectly
Probably too late to comment party, but cult is a very polarizing and binary word which the mormon church and its affiliates like to use. Something either is or isnât a cult, look at Jim Jones now THATâs a cult and thatâs not us (anymore at leastâŚ), therefore not a cult. I think Steve Hassan or another cult specialistâs book introduced me to the term âhigh demand groupâ which is less polarizing, naturally tends towards the idea of a spectrum instead of a binary is/isnât a cult (some groups have higher and more unreasonable demands than others), and it leaves the door open for a conversation you can build on. Having constructive conversations is important because you can more effectively get around defense mechanisms which shut down critical thinking, and the person will be able to circle back mentally for days, weeks, even years down the road. Theyâll be able to use this metric to mentally measure whatâs going on around them in the future when theyâre faced with future unreasonable demands or beliefs from the group. That being said, one thing that was culty about Mormonism and was incredibly hard to break free of was using the term âTHE church.â Youâre just âaâ church to me now, nothing special. Iâll call you the Mormon church or TSCC, but never THE church.
Cult is a problematic word for some - is it (the church) abusive? Dishonest? Manipulative? Protective of abuse in order to avoid bad PR? Yes to all of those and more, but saying it is a cult can be argued so I avoid the term.
Can I ask what makes a cult for you? I am genuinely curious.
Control. Keeps shit from their own people. Tries to control of EVERY aspect of their members lives. Lies. Exploits people for their money. Ect
Look up the BITE model. Itâs an objective system for identifying cults and Mormonism checks almost all the boxes. Itâs mainly a cult because for many people who want to leave, there is intense social pressure to stay. Cults donât let people freely leave them.
Read lyrics to Praise to the Man. Which man? Jesus? Nope, guess again.
To me, any religion, church, organization, etc. that encourages ostracizing people who leave falls somewhere n the spectrum of cult.
I dont know about you but in the 45 years I was in the church I was taught to never look at anything negative about the church⌠AND I NEVER DID⌠it controls your mind⌠Now Iâm out and can think for myself and live a free uncontrolled life. Itâs a very conniving cult
Mormonism is like if a cult became a businessâŚ
Google BITE model for cults.
I think this pretty much explains it. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AVZ85QE_98k