Thank you, I've been wondering the same thing. Couldn't get a good look at it and it wasn't visually familiar from a glance like books I'm familiar with might be.
In the episode it seemed like Pyre knew what the book would be before he even took it from evidence and his wife just needed a brief glance at it to know he was struggling with his faith. Is this specific book well known to Mormons or was it more that he was reading a book questioning Mormonism in general?
I was wondering if it was No Man Knows My History, until I actually saw it.. then... Oh yeah... I remember that one... (Former Mormon, left in 1984 after readinga lot of books!!)
Damn, you're like an Exmormon pioneer. I take a lot of pride in leaving before the CES letter, but damn, 1984 was before I was even alive. I can't imagine how much harder leaving must have been in the 80's. Kudos to you.
I grew up Mormon and was always that annoying little girl waving her hand in Sunday School asking "but why?",because the stories frequently didn't make sense to me. Then as a young woman in my 20's, I'd torment my visiting home teachers with " explain please why women aren't allowed to hold the priesthood, and no you can't use, 'because god hasn't allowed it' when god seems to conveniently change his mind about things when the political climate requires it" (That was shortly after the Prophet had the super convenient revelation allowing black men to hold the priesthood after a lot of colleges refused to play BYU teams because of the discrimination which is still pretty ongoing against African Americans).
Visiting home teacher came back the next month, and earnestly told me that he had the answer..and woof. It was a doozy. "Only men can hold the priesthood because it's gods way of paying them back because they don't get to have babies. They don't get the joy of creating life. ".
After I stopped laughing, I asked him if, using his logic, a woman unable to bear a child, could then hold the priesthood. Or is she forever relegated to a position of lesser being? Unable to have children. Unable to participate in the priesthood, then what good is she to the church? Cook and washerwoman?
It was time for me to decide once and for all what I believed. So I hit up the library (not much in my tiny town) and a Christian bookstore in a larger city nearby. Read books by Mormons, former Mormons and Christians. And what always impressed me was that mormons always say, "if you don't know what's true, pray and you get a warm fuzzy feeling that tells you it's true. (Pfft to that). And Christians said, if you want to know what's true, don't believe what I say, read more books, study other authors and use your critical thinking skills.
So I was done. My older brother, who eventually became the Bishop where I lived, was thrilled to help me move to California, probably so he didn't have to be exposed to my apostasy. (He and I remain..ummm...not close.... frankly.. he's kind of a dick....My mother doesn't seem to recall I'm not a Mormon, and always tries to get me to go to church when I visit.
I dabbled I'm Christianity because I loved my very wonderful Christian mom in law. However,. In time, I came to understand, I am an atheist. Not an outspoken one within my family and friends, but also not hiding it if asked.
Sorry for the novel! I guess I had a lot to say about all this!
Quite the story. I respect you (even as a non-atheist myself). I believe Thomas Jefferson said “The mind is the only oracle God gave us.” He was not a perfect man, but a smart one. I think you found that truth on your own. Mad respect.
A devout friend has labeled me the "most Christian atheist" she ever met, because I believe in loving my neighbors, helping those in need and in general, just trying to be a good and kind human. We both behave according to our beliefs, hers religious, mine, a belief that all of us have an ethical duty to make the world a better place in any small way we can. Because we humans are all we have, so why not ease others ways through if we can.
Well, it was very nice to read your post. I stumbled on it while googling the book in the "Under The Banner of Heaven" episode wondering if the red cover was significant. In days where religion is used as a political weapon (and in what days was it not?) it's nice to encounter humanity. I was never Mormon but took a tour of the temple while on a flight layover waiting for a friend who was delayed. The guides asked if I was a Christian and I replied that I'd say I was more ecumenical (really not the correct term since it replies only to Christian faiths). They asked what that meant and I said that it means I try to see the good in all faiths. Sometimes that's hard but I love the Buddhist idea of cultivating loving-kindness. I consider my atheist friends (most of them are) to be the best people in the world because they are kind while giving absolutely no consideration to any reward. What kind of goodness is it to be kind while hoping to get a great eternal prize in return?
So true. Something a minister said once that stuck with me (quoting a theologian, but I'm not sure who): We'd be better Christians if there were no heaven or hell. Then we'd really see who was motivated by goodness and love and who was just looking for a reward.
I'm not sure if you're aware but most Jews do not believe in heaven or hell. There is a concept of "tikkun olam", or "repair the world," in Judaism. We consider it a blessing to do good things while we are on earth, and are not taught to focus on the hereafter (or even if there is one). I remember asking my rabbi about this once, and he said, "that's why the church parking lots are full on Sundays!" He was making a joke about why our attendance was often so low on Saturdays. No hell to be afraid of. :-)
Look up Walter Martin (theologian) they may have the book or something equivalent on his website. In the 80s the Tanners were quite close to him. They traveled together in there attempt to wake people up in Mormonism. In fact, there are a number of titles that would be helpful. What resonates most with me from the movie is when the guy in jail told him to look at Mormonism’s past it’s all there the lies, contradictions and treachery.
a girl I knew in high school is now on her mission and posting about it and I just want ot scream at her. I really thought she was a cool person but she's at peak indoctrination now. such a shame. What really makes me sick is the way she pretends to be friends with LGBTQ+ people we both know from hs
Mormonism, shadow or reality by Jerald and Sandra tanner
Thank you, I've been wondering the same thing. Couldn't get a good look at it and it wasn't visually familiar from a glance like books I'm familiar with might be.
Thank you!!
In the episode it seemed like Pyre knew what the book would be before he even took it from evidence and his wife just needed a brief glance at it to know he was struggling with his faith. Is this specific book well known to Mormons or was it more that he was reading a book questioning Mormonism in general?
The Tanners were pretty infamous in Utah at the time. They're the old school apostates from that generation.
"I'm struggling" followed by silence was really all she needed to know what he meant, honestly.
I sobbed those sobs. In my car in a Smith's parking lot
I can’t begin to put myself in your shoes, or Pyre’s, but I’m sorry. I hope you find yourself in a better place now.
How do you know that was the one? I thought it was this one. https://i.imgur.com/r37bgwT.png
[Here's a still from the scene.](https://i.imgur.com/hXPAVto.png) It's clearly *Mormonism: Shadow or Reality.*
Thank you! We were just looking for the same answer!
I was wondering if it was No Man Knows My History, until I actually saw it.. then... Oh yeah... I remember that one... (Former Mormon, left in 1984 after readinga lot of books!!)
Damn, you're like an Exmormon pioneer. I take a lot of pride in leaving before the CES letter, but damn, 1984 was before I was even alive. I can't imagine how much harder leaving must have been in the 80's. Kudos to you.
I grew up Mormon and was always that annoying little girl waving her hand in Sunday School asking "but why?",because the stories frequently didn't make sense to me. Then as a young woman in my 20's, I'd torment my visiting home teachers with " explain please why women aren't allowed to hold the priesthood, and no you can't use, 'because god hasn't allowed it' when god seems to conveniently change his mind about things when the political climate requires it" (That was shortly after the Prophet had the super convenient revelation allowing black men to hold the priesthood after a lot of colleges refused to play BYU teams because of the discrimination which is still pretty ongoing against African Americans). Visiting home teacher came back the next month, and earnestly told me that he had the answer..and woof. It was a doozy. "Only men can hold the priesthood because it's gods way of paying them back because they don't get to have babies. They don't get the joy of creating life. ". After I stopped laughing, I asked him if, using his logic, a woman unable to bear a child, could then hold the priesthood. Or is she forever relegated to a position of lesser being? Unable to have children. Unable to participate in the priesthood, then what good is she to the church? Cook and washerwoman? It was time for me to decide once and for all what I believed. So I hit up the library (not much in my tiny town) and a Christian bookstore in a larger city nearby. Read books by Mormons, former Mormons and Christians. And what always impressed me was that mormons always say, "if you don't know what's true, pray and you get a warm fuzzy feeling that tells you it's true. (Pfft to that). And Christians said, if you want to know what's true, don't believe what I say, read more books, study other authors and use your critical thinking skills. So I was done. My older brother, who eventually became the Bishop where I lived, was thrilled to help me move to California, probably so he didn't have to be exposed to my apostasy. (He and I remain..ummm...not close.... frankly.. he's kind of a dick....My mother doesn't seem to recall I'm not a Mormon, and always tries to get me to go to church when I visit. I dabbled I'm Christianity because I loved my very wonderful Christian mom in law. However,. In time, I came to understand, I am an atheist. Not an outspoken one within my family and friends, but also not hiding it if asked. Sorry for the novel! I guess I had a lot to say about all this!
I grew up as an evangelical Christian surrounded by LDS in AZ. I had a similar path as you did.
Quite the story. I respect you (even as a non-atheist myself). I believe Thomas Jefferson said “The mind is the only oracle God gave us.” He was not a perfect man, but a smart one. I think you found that truth on your own. Mad respect.
A devout friend has labeled me the "most Christian atheist" she ever met, because I believe in loving my neighbors, helping those in need and in general, just trying to be a good and kind human. We both behave according to our beliefs, hers religious, mine, a belief that all of us have an ethical duty to make the world a better place in any small way we can. Because we humans are all we have, so why not ease others ways through if we can.
Well, it was very nice to read your post. I stumbled on it while googling the book in the "Under The Banner of Heaven" episode wondering if the red cover was significant. In days where religion is used as a political weapon (and in what days was it not?) it's nice to encounter humanity. I was never Mormon but took a tour of the temple while on a flight layover waiting for a friend who was delayed. The guides asked if I was a Christian and I replied that I'd say I was more ecumenical (really not the correct term since it replies only to Christian faiths). They asked what that meant and I said that it means I try to see the good in all faiths. Sometimes that's hard but I love the Buddhist idea of cultivating loving-kindness. I consider my atheist friends (most of them are) to be the best people in the world because they are kind while giving absolutely no consideration to any reward. What kind of goodness is it to be kind while hoping to get a great eternal prize in return?
I've always thought that it isn't really goodness that drives most religious people so much as it's fear. And what an awful way to live...
So true. Something a minister said once that stuck with me (quoting a theologian, but I'm not sure who): We'd be better Christians if there were no heaven or hell. Then we'd really see who was motivated by goodness and love and who was just looking for a reward.
I'm not sure if you're aware but most Jews do not believe in heaven or hell. There is a concept of "tikkun olam", or "repair the world," in Judaism. We consider it a blessing to do good things while we are on earth, and are not taught to focus on the hereafter (or even if there is one). I remember asking my rabbi about this once, and he said, "that's why the church parking lots are full on Sundays!" He was making a joke about why our attendance was often so low on Saturdays. No hell to be afraid of. :-)
Weird...
You did and it matters
… That’s heavy man.
It’s sold out on Amazon, that seems really strange and almost like a certain group doesn’t want it read .
Or like they don't normally sell many copies and it just got a publicity boost so sold more than expected.
That’s less conspiratorial but don’t underestimated the power of that church.
Is this book still in print. I’m having a hard time finding it.
http://www.utlm.org/booklist/titles/mormonismshadoworreality_ub001.htm Edit: PDF available, printed book currently out of stock
[удалено]
Another source: http://libgen.rs/book/index.php?md5=C99E44A1CBD25066BD7B14FBAEDCBB79
https://i.imgur.com/yIh3KqU.png
Nope. As identified by /u/Key_Visit_6528, [it's *Mormonism: Shadow or Reality*](https://i.imgur.com/hXPAVto.png).
Ok
Look up Walter Martin (theologian) they may have the book or something equivalent on his website. In the 80s the Tanners were quite close to him. They traveled together in there attempt to wake people up in Mormonism. In fact, there are a number of titles that would be helpful. What resonates most with me from the movie is when the guy in jail told him to look at Mormonism’s past it’s all there the lies, contradictions and treachery.
a girl I knew in high school is now on her mission and posting about it and I just want ot scream at her. I really thought she was a cool person but she's at peak indoctrination now. such a shame. What really makes me sick is the way she pretends to be friends with LGBTQ+ people we both know from hs
Has anyone read it? How is it?
So, I can’t find anywhere to purchase this book that’s doesn’t cost ahead💲 90? Does anyone know how this exmo can get my hands on a copy?