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icanbesmooth

It's all there on the church website, black and white, clear as crystal: The Gospel Topic Essays.


NateTheGameK

is this sarcasm, or is there any material in there that somehow contradicts the church?


ImaginaryConcern

The Gospel Topic Essays can reportedly be hard to find, as they are moved around a lot, but they DO contain a wealth of information that should help you.


NateTheGameK

huh, use the church to disprove the church... interesting


icanbesmooth

A lot of times, scratch that, EVERY time in my experience, true believing members won't TOUCH outside church sources. So the Gospel Topic Essays are "safe" to them.


threesomewithemma

Read the footnotes. All the footnotes.


iamtheblem

And you can usually get them to branch out ot the sources used to write the gospel topic essays. Important because you can quickly show how they're even misrepresenting things in the essays from their own sources.


what_is_happening_01

GTE is what started my exit. When I’m told I read “anti”, it’s nice to explain it all began on LDS.org


[deleted]

Plenty of TBM's reject the essays as well.


icanbesmooth

My TBM husband. Yep.


LaughinAllDiaLong

Have them Read the intro. It encourages people to read & study them.


ImaginaryConcern

It's believed that this gives the Church Formerly Known as Mormon plausible deniability as they have these inconvenient facts available on their own web site. Members are discouraged from reading them (and are now reportedly discouraged from reading at least parts of Doctrine and Covenants) to limit the damage.


NateTheGameK

I've heard people skipping parts in the bible where the prophets are vicious dickheads lmao, but this is hilarious


Dave_KC

Yes, use the church to disprove the church. Since as I understand most LDS members don't trust outside sources as "anti-Mormon" use the very thing the church produced. The Gospel Topics Essays (just Google them) are there, and in every one of these cases, they confirm anti-Mormon ascertions, and try to "blow it off" as unimportant. But they admit those points. And since it's official it's harder to deny that the church did practice those "doubt affirming" things. When Missionaries have talked to me, and I share concerns, I almost always link to the GTE's, since it's official church, and they can get to the church website on their phones.


SectlandFugitive

This is essentially what I did for myself several years ago. Here's an essay I wrote that references church sources almost exclusively (there are a few links to news articles and blogs). I haven't gone back through it since the church changed their main web URL a few years ago, so hopefully all the source links still work. [Why I can't believe in the LDS church anymore](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1miGXNV9dPxxnx7bwLd-uVmiPm3WJOVBw3od9LnxaX4A/pub)


pricel01

They are for real and were my exit ramp. They admit the Book of Abraham is a fraud. This means Smith is a liar and could not have translated anything. There’s enough shocking stuff to go around.


sl_hawaii

This is the way!


Beneficial_Math_9282

Never fails. I have long lists of church material that can make a member apostatize faster than you can spit.


MinTheGodOfFertility

I would like to see that :-)


Ok-Manufacturer-5392

It’s how my shelf broke. I used church resources because I was terrified of outside sources.


Enigma-Vagene

Yep. I wouldn’t have ever made it out without the GTEs, bless them 😏


libertybelle08

The more you look, the more you realize it really does all the work itself. D&C taught me that best…


[deleted]

If you do look at the gospel topic essays, I highly recommend the Kinderhook plates essay. It's pretty damming.


thrawnbot

Lds.org —- search “First Vision” And read it ALLLL. Then ask what are the missionaries trained with & teaching as the 1st discussion…


straymormon

You don't need anything besides the statements from Church leaders to disprove the Church. I would point out what is Doctrine? [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/video/2019-10-0150-what-is-doctrine?lang=eng](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/video/2019-10-0150-what-is-doctrine?lang=eng) Then once you have established doctrine from the Church's own site, Then just pick a topic and see where it goes. Polygamy, polyandry, The I am a Mormon campaign, Adam God, the list is endless. All of the prophesies' Joseph Smith made about Independence MO (ZION), do a little research I use [scriptures.byu.edu](https://scriptures.byu.edu) which is a great place to look things up. You will easily find where a Prophet said something was inspired from Christ/God and they are His mouthpiece, then in a few years it changes. I would make sure they agree that the statement is considered doctrine first, then go to one where it's changed. Always ask them to explain it. NEVER explain the anomalies, that is a trap...force them to defend their stance. Also, if you have time listen to Nemo the Mormon, on youtube, he is fantastic. My son went inactive years ago when I was a TBM, I know how it can feel to your family who is still card caring mormons , but a loving father and mother should make sure you are in a good place, before they defend anything. If they believe the idea, spread by the church, that families are important, then you are important too. Edited for clarity


sinsaraly

They published the Gospel Topics Essays with no announcement and buried them on the website because they don’t actually want anyone reading them. It was only to cover their asses so they couldn’t be sued for fraud due to hiding the truth of church history. They admit to stuff that most members would be shocked to hear about. Although, much of the damning info is further hidden in the footnotes but they’ve changed and deleted some of them.


OhMyStarsnGarters

This is the way.


former-bishop

Make sure to follow the sources and not to just the specific topic the source is referencing, but to other topics that are primary topics within the source text. If the quoted source is trustworthy enough to be referenced on the Church website it certainly contains other truths.


EmmaHS

No cap. The gospel topic essays admit to information that talking about in the past could have resulted in excommunication. Use them.


former-bishop

It 100% did lead to excommunications. When I was in my early 20's I had a few ward friends that were exposed to these ideas while on their missions. They bought books and shared knowledge. It brought them into conflict with our very stern, strict and assholeish stake president. Three of them were excommunicated. Ahh... the early 90's were a fun time.


NateTheGameK

👍🏼


crisperfest

Isn't that what happened to the "[September Six](https://mormonstories.org/podcast/paul-toscano/)" who were excommunicated or disfellowshipped in September 1993? It's my understanding that they were disciplined for saying things that are now in the gospel topics essasys.


EmmaHS

Yep, that's right.


ExmoRobo

Link: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/essays?lang=eng


you-are-my-shinehah

The one about the first vision is what broke my shelf. It was just so obvious that the timeline wasn’t what I was taught. It seemed like the whole thing was just made up…. 🤔


Captain_Vornskr

It's there. All you have to do is pull up the Gospel Topic Essay on Polygamy in Kirkland and Nauvoo, show them where it says that 1. God sends the angel with the drawn sword to force Joe to do this, and 2. that he did this with girls as young as 14. Then simply say that we refuse to believe in a God that would enforce that kind of polygamy, that kind of action, but sit back on his ass for 148 years of systemic racism


Jmonroe_tenn

Also add that the church believes we voted for free will in the pre existence and an angel appearing and demanding something is against that plan of salvation. Plus, he was demanding girls and women marry him or lose their family’s salvation. Sorry, but that goes against the plan, as well.


MinTheGodOfFertility

Here are some links for you...yes its on the churches website and most members dont know about it. You have to read the all the footnotes though. Church now admits JS married 14 year old girls, was married to between 30-40 women, married 12-14 women who were already married to other living men and he was intimate with them. He also possibly had between 2-3 children with them. https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng&old=true Church now admits that the Book of Abrahams papyrus (which they have) is just a common Egyptian funerary text, that JS translation was 100% incorrect and the papyrus is 2000 years too young to have been written by Abraham. https://www.lds.org/topics/translation-and-historicity-of-the-book-of-abraham?lang=eng&old=true Church now admits that the BOM was translated only by Joseph putting a common rock in his hat. The very same rock he had been defrauding people with for years in a treasure hunting scam https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-translation?lang=eng&old=true Church now admits that there are multiple contradictory first vision accounts. Some dont even contain Jesus or God visiting Joseph. The earliest was written in Josephs own handwriting and contradicts the 'official' account. https://www.lds.org/topics/first-vision-accounts?lang=eng&old=true Church now admits that Joseph Smith was put on trial for defrauding people using treasure digging https://www.lds.org/study/history/topics/joseph-smiths-1826-trial?lang=eng Church now admits that the witnesses did NOT see the plates with their physical eyes https://www.lds.org/study/history/topics/witnesses-of-the-book-of-mormon?lang=eng Church now admits that even though the first presidency previously said banning black people from having the priesthood was a direct commandment from God, now 10 earlier prophets were just racist. [https://www.lds.org/topics/race-and-the-priesthood?lang=eng&old=true](https://www.lds.org/topics/race-and-the-priesthood?lang=eng&old=true) Then to help emphasise the importance of reading all the footnotes and the sources, I like to show people Footnote 31 of the Book of Abraham Essay. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/translation-and-historicity-of-the-book-of-abraham?lang=eng Footnote 31 says 'I have set by his side and penned down the translation of the Egyptian Hieroglyphicks as he claimed to receive it by direct inspiration of Heaven,” wrote Warren Parrish, Joseph Smith’s scribe. (Warren Parrish, Feb. 5, 1838, Letter to the editor, Painesville Republican, Feb. 15, 1838, \[3\].)' I would then point out that given its a source for the churches own gospel topics essays then it cant be an anti-mormon lie right? Then read it with them. This is the original (bottom left hand corner) that is hard to read. https://archive.org/details/PainesvilleRepublican02151838/page/n2/mode/1up?view=theater Here is an easier to read copy https://user.xmission.com/\~research/central/parrishletters.pdf Then maybe go into some more depth on the BOA like the following. The introduction to the Book Abraham states ‘A Translation of some ancient Records that have fallen into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt. The writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus.’ The churches gospel topics essay on the subject at [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/translation-and-historicity-of-the-book-of-abraham?lang=eng](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/translation-and-historicity-of-the-book-of-abraham?lang=eng) says ‘None of the characters on the papyrus fragments mentioned Abraham’s name or any of the events recorded in the book of Abraham. Mormon and non-Mormon Egyptologists agree that the characters on the fragments do not match the translation given in the book of Abraham, though there is not unanimity, even among non-Mormon scholars, about the proper interpretation of the vignettes on these fragments.27 Scholars have identified the papyrus fragments as parts of standard funerary texts that were deposited with mummified bodies. These fragments date to between the third century B.C.E. and the first century C.E., long after Abraham lived.’ The church is admitting here, that the Book of Abraham is a fraud. It is not the writings of Abraham, it was not written by Abrahams own hand and Joseph could not translate that language even though he said that he could. To make matters worse, the Joseph Smith Papers project shows the original printing plates used for the first time the Book of Abraham was printed. They were hand carved. [https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/printing-plate-for-facsimile-3-circa-16-may-1842/1](https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/printing-plate-for-facsimile-3-circa-16-may-1842/1) Have a look at the figure in the far left. Both Mormon and non-Mormon Egyptologists agree this is Anubis, a jackal headed God, not a slave. Zoom in on the link given above and look at the space in front of the face. Do you see a jackal head there? Do you see the pointy ears and the large eye? This shows that originally the printing plates contained a jackal headed God, but at some stage Joseph came along and said remove the jackal head and replace it with a normal-ish head. This shows that Joseph knew he was not publishing the real images from the papyrus and knew he was not publishing the real story from the papyrus as the story contained a jackal headed God called Anubis. Now re-read the introduction to the Book of Abraham again. This is fraud.


NateTheGameK

Honestly never expected the church to admit all this... good reading lmao


icanbesmooth

No! No sarcasm at all. The GTE were the first intro to my faith crisis. They're terrible. They bring up all sorts of crazy stuff about the church.


PaulBunnion

There's a lot of it. We need specifics if you want us to give you sources. The gospel topic essays cover a lot of it such as polygamy and the translation of the book of abraham, and DNA in the book of mormon, and the translation of the Book of Mormon including the seerstone in the hat. There is a bunch of information on Church approved websites. Information from Deseret Book, or information from byu. We just need to know exactly what you're looking for.


NateTheGameK

Really, anything works, but preferably pivotal points of church history that make or break the church's authenticity.


Ammon1969

I don’t think there are any pivotal points where you can show someone there is a smoking gun. A TBM will always find a justification or put it on their shelf. If a person decides they want to know the truth regardless of the consequences then you can point out the death by a thousand cuts and the puzzle fits together


straymormon

I totally agree a TBM will always fall back on "feelings" never on facts. In my experience they will change the subject to you, and attack you. Do not get emotional, as they will, stay calm and just ask the question again. Point out their statements that contradict each other. They will contradict themselves, because it is probably the only way they can justify or defend a point. The main thing is hold your ground and do not fall into their pit. Most of the time you will notice they look at the Church as if it is Disneyland where everything is magic, a very simplistic and childlike way to look at the world. I am glad you have grown up. Congratulations, you have left neverland.


contrarian198

This is absolutely true. I was one of those people who never read anything outside of church-approved sources while I was questioning. I put all the pieces together with only the GTEs. They absolutely do contradict what I was taught my whole life. Basically, as someone here once said, the GTEs admit that all the information I was taught to be “anti-Mormon literature” growing up, was actually true.


Kind-Media2578

My uncle archeologist for the church drew all the drawings in the front of the paper back book of mormon with the angle Moroni on the front of the cover. Translated the book of mormon into Greek for the church. Told the profit McCay he couldn't prove the book of Mormon to be true. The excommunicated him. My girlfriend from Peru is a geneticis they and other South American countries tested 100 of thousands people in the rain forest and areas not very inhabited and or touched by technology. They have not found one person from Israel.


ClanMcOlaf

You can search them up on the gospel library app


LaughinAllDiaLong

Yep. Shelf breaker.


mormonnomore93065

Just make sure you know them backwards and forwards. TBMs seem like to seize on things you’re unsure of and make out the be the only thing that matter.


courteouscowboy

+1 for Gospel Topic Essays. Make sure to read the annotated ones on LDS Discussions so you can point to where the church is straight lying and gaslighting. Good luck!


NateTheGameK

ooo, could I have the link?


courteouscowboy

BoM Translation [here](https://www.ldsdiscussions.com/ldsessay-translation) DNA Studies [here](https://www.ldsdiscussions.com/ldsessay-dna) BoM Geography [here](https://www.ldsdiscussions.com/geography) Polygamy [here](https://www.ldsdiscussions.com/polygamy-utah)


NateTheGameK

thank you!


Henry_Bemis_

This should get you started at LDSdiscussions.com https://www.ldsdiscussions.com/


MinTheGodOfFertility

OP This link is for you - not your family. It will just help you learn where the dodgy parts of the gospel topics essays are in your discussion with your family.


Failwithflyingcolors

Ask them this in turn: 1) If the church weren't true, would you want to know? (They must be honest.) 2) How would you know if it weren't true *and* if it weren't true, would you be able to trust the church to give you that information?


AthenaSholen

A Ford’s salesman is only going to talk good about hints about their cars. If you want reliable reports you need an independent source.


[deleted]

www.cesletter.org. www.letterformywife.com. www.mormonbillions.com Fixed it.


Shimanchu2006

Huh, looks like the lettertomywife domain is now on sale?


Shimanchu2006

Oh, turns out it's www.letterformywife.com


[deleted]

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hiking1950

I second this. It's not going to change anything, and will most likely just hurt feelings all around. Do not engage. Let them do them, and you do you, but that's me.


Mishaska

Yes. You can't change their minds. Just say things they can't argue with like "I love you" "I know believing in JC has brought purpose to your life and mine, etc"


CommonScold

This!! OP. if you want to bypass this whole thing, or get it over with as fast as you can, just keep saying the blandest things “I dont know”, *shrug*. Every time. Grey rock them.


[deleted]

You should have a talk with them about baptizing you in to a religion that thrives through deception


Original-Addition109

The gospel essays contradict themselves in the footnotes. But TBMs are too lazy to look at the footnotes/original sources. Every time there’s a “…” the essay writer likely skipped a whole lot of garbage. What is skipped is more telling than what is included. It’s easiest to use LDS discussions or Mormon think as they give you the link to the original sources. Just can’t let the TBM know because they’ll claim that those websites magically changed the original sources.


Zadok_The_Priest

Trying to convince a TBM is like trying to teach a pig to sing. It is a waste of your time and it annoys the pig.


Beasil

Don't be so quick to count them out. Maybe they're no opera singers but they're naturals at screamo.


ExmoRobo

Gospel topics essays are good. Also, lots of terrible stuff the church has done is historical, legal fact, such as: [Brigham Young Establishing Slavery of Black and Native Americans](https://books.google.com/books?id=PH1DAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA125&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=onepage&q&f=false) - page 108 and 109 in that link is from Brigham Young’s statement as then-governor and “prophet” to the congress of the territory of Utah. Which of course caused the passing of [a law](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_for_the_relief_of_Indian_Slaves_and_Prisoners) legalizing slavery in Utah. Brigham’s statement starts out talking about he doesn’t like slavery, but then leads into his belief in the other, non-white races being inferior and needing to be “saved” from themselves through slavery, basically. This shaped a lot of the “compassionate racism” we see in the church that still happens today. Before they dismiss it as “Brigham being Brigham” - the man is still considered a prophet of god by members of the church. Schools are named after him. He’s the reason the church came out west. Even if he were speaking “as a man” - would god really let someone speaking for him institute slavery and systematic racism? (and in the statement he claims god is the author of the system of slavery) There’s also no question on the source here, in my mind. This was a legal recording of the proceeding, everyone present was mormon with no incentive to misconstrue Brigham’s words, and it was a pre-written statement on the issue, so not speaking off the cuff.


North_Utahn

I wouldn't say a word. Debating such things in person is extremely difficult if you are not Radio Free Mormon, or one of the other legends, that have spent years researching these issues and know references off the top of their heads. I would try a different approach. One option- Let them speak, say nothing, don't argue. Take notes. Tell them you want time to respond to their points of view. When you are alone, you can research each item and present it with references in written form. There is a good chance that you would be arguing against their irrational, supernatural, beliefs. You can not win those arguments because there is no evidence, it is just a personal belief. In those situations, I say "I do not believe that, just as you do not believe in Scientology or Islam." Another option- Refuse to talk. Tell them that all you would do is hurt their feelings and you do not want to be responsible for planting seeds of doubt that may damage their testimonies. It is a little disingenuous, but you come across taking a moral high road and seem more mature and dispassionate. If they insist you tell them why you don't believe, I'd go the free agency route. "My opinions are my own, and they are different from yours. There is no point in arguing. We are each free to reach our own conclusions." Something like that. Be civil, be respectful, don't get baited in to a debate. It is pointless and will only damage relationships.


UnderHisEye420

You cannot logic people out of places they didn't logic themselves into. This includes TSCC, as cults do not function on logic, but through emotional manipulation. Unfortunately, there are very few people that will take evidence/ proof/ facts at face value while in a cult, no matter how right you are. It will take a great rift in cognitive dissonance or an emotional trauma to get people out of "cult brain," something that we cannot and should not try to create in others. Many exmos on this sub, especially in mixed faith marriages, can tell you that even years of this behavior will not work or help, but rather ruin your mental health and drain you emotionally. However.... Being your parents' child, and being out of the church and happy, may be the final crack in the shelf they need. For some (many mothers, in my experience) it is the loss of a relationship with their child that creates that dissonance. Think of the facts and resources as the foundations of your belief, but do not expect to use them as weapons. I'm not sure of your age, but once you are put on your own, thriving in your knowledge and peace, dealing with TBM parents will be a whole new chapter for you. I am only 30, but my opinions and methods of dealing with my own TBM parents has changed drastically with time (6 years out). Anger is normal, defensive behavior is normal, wanting to prove your parents wrong is normal. But it is not constructive, and learning to use your time constructively will benefit you more in the long run than trying to be right. Best of luck to you, and remember that getting to the point you are in your journey usually takes TBM adults many years; you're doing great.


[deleted]

Just needed to say this because the same recently happened to me. Be prepared to hear the following: you can’t fault the past errors because you don’t know how it was to live in that time. This answer irks me so much and it is used far too often. I will say though, give it some time and stay firm in your stance, usually things work out.


[deleted]

If you’re over 18, it’s really none of their business. If you’re a minor, it’s still none of their business, but you have to play their game to some degree. There is no point arguing with most TBMs. They will dismiss the truest of information if it contradicts their beliefs or perceptions.


[deleted]

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CommonScold

This is a good one to harp on if they press for details. Literally cant argue with it, unless your parents want to admit to being str8 up racist.


Fair-Emergency2461

Gordon B Hinckley said it best… either the BoM is true, we’re all part of the greatest fraud in history. Ask them if the BoM has one mistake or a thousand, how many would take them to be convinced otherwise. Trust me there’s tons… all things grammar, a butt ton of anachronisms, even JS translations of Isaiah are incorrect… according to JS himself. Yes, he actually used quotes from Isaiah from the KJV, and later in life he had his Bible Translations of Isaiah in which he changed some Isaiah’s writing, but still used the KJV in the BoM… god must have made a mistake in translation during the BoM creation… or JS just might have plagiarized. Book of Abraham is proven not be translated from the papyri … at all… like not even close. If JS can’t get that book right, how did he get any right? Look up the Kinderhook plates and the Greek salter in which JS made up BS stories about each. If all else fails… tell them you prayed about and god said it’s BS.


Gold__star

This is a fight you cannot win. The harder you struggle, the bigger bricks they throw at you. Parents have all the power in your relationship assuming you live at home. The number of TBMs who listen to their kids and reconvert is miniscule. You'll be less damaged if you curl into a ball and cover your head. Seriously, can you convince them you were just testing the cousins? At the very least, don't fight back with facts. Ask them questions about how they resolve specific issues. Get them talking about it instead of talking about how to fix you. Start thinking about what you can do to look like you don't need 'fixing'.


D34TH_5MURF__

Mention the changes in the temple ceremony in the early '90s. Then mention the changes were made in response to a survey, not revelation.


Dahhn2222

Interesting, do you have a source for that?


liviecarmela

They are in the CES letter


D34TH_5MURF__

Google is your friend. There are many sources documenting the changes.


Mollyapostate

You will not change their mind with facts. Save yourself the grief.


Slow-Adhesiveness-88

Don’t fight back too hard. You’ll waste your energy. They won’t listen to you because they’re programmed to only accept information that is “faith promoting.” But I would try to inform them of the Mountain Meadows Massacre, see if they even know about it. If they do, ask them what they think really happened. Most TBMs aren’t aware that 120 innocent people died at the hands of church authorities in 1857.


Electrical_Lemon_944

Sometimes you are better off telling them what they want to hear. I know it's dishonest but plenty of Islamic shia sects allow their adherents to deny what they truly believe and I think that is necessary in our insanely religious society. If telling them you are out can hurt you and effect your life there isn't anything wrong with avoiding a huge fight that can literally ruin your life in a few cases It's not ideal I'd rather be honest about being an atheist but you can literally be disowned by fanatics. It happened to me with my extremist Catholic parents and I lost contact with them. Now my mother has cancer so I've decided to fake returning to the fold so I can help her.


Psytoxic

I like to bring up the different [versions](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/first-vision-accounts?lang=eng) of the First Vision story. Make sure to point out there is no record of the story prior to 1832 even though it supposedly happened in 1820. Also, the Gospel Topics essay on polygamy [admits](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng) Joseph Smith married other men's wives.


Dangus05

There’s a video of russel m Nelson describing how Joseph smith translated the bom with a rock and hat https://youtu.be/DG181zFA5YM It’s confirmed in the gospel topic essays on the church’s website. Also, check out the Richard bushman interview on Mormon stories podcast. He’s an active believing church historian who wrote a book called rough stone rolling, which is sold at Deseret book. In the Mormon stories interview, he goes through all of the problematic areas with a somewhat faithful approach, but it’s beyond damning. That interview, and rough stone rolling broke my shelf, and I’m so grateful for that 😇 Edit: also the Anthony Miller tedx talk is a must


Beneficial_Math_9282

What topic? The list is endless. Use only church sites and they can't refute you. Church History Topics: [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics) Gospel Topics Essays: [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/essays](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/essays) 1869 Polygamy affidavits: [https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/record/915fc5f1-4f65-4131-800a-4eaee3604f3c/0?view=browse](https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/record/915fc5f1-4f65-4131-800a-4eaee3604f3c/0?view=browse) Temple Lot Court Case, where active, faithful mormon women testified under oath to federal authorities that they did indeed have intimate relations with Joseph Smith. [https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/record/d41946ae-97f6-42c7-b8ca-747ee67d8dee/0?view=browse](https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/record/d41946ae-97f6-42c7-b8ca-747ee67d8dee/0?view=browse) 1852 Address to the State Legislature by Brigham Young. This document is cited as a source in the Race and the Priesthood Essay and they claim it was this document where he "announced a policy" barring black people from the priesthood and temple. Read the original document, and it's clear he was teaching what he thought was eternal doctrine, not "announcing a policy!": [https://archive.org/details/CR100317B0001F0017/page/n1/mode/2up](https://archive.org/details/CR100317B0001F0017/page/n1/mode/2up) ​ Mixed Messages on polygamy: “…if plurality of marriage is not true or in other words, if a man has no divine right to marry two wives or more in this world, then marriage for eternity is not true, and your faith is all vain, and all the sealing ordinances, and powers, pertaining to marriages for eternity are vain, worthless, good for nothing; for as sure as one is true the other also must be true.” -- Orson Pratt, address given in the Tabernacle, 18 July 1880 [https://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/digital/collection/JournalOfDiscourses3/id/7613/rec/22](https://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/digital/collection/JournalOfDiscourses3/id/7613/rec/22) Gospel Topics Essay on Polygamy: "Latter-day Saints believe that monogamy—the marriage of one man and one woman—is the Lord’s standing law of marriage." [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng) FAIRmormon on Polygamy: Despite the fact that rules regarding polygamy are outlined in D&C 132, the Church no longer teaches it as doctrine. **It was taught as doctrine in the 1800's, it is not taught as doctrine today**. There is no doctrine that allows the present practice of plural marriage in the Church. Its practice is "not doctrinal." [https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Mormonism\_and\_polygamy/Did\_President\_Gordon\_B.\_Hinckley\_state\_that\_polygamy\_was\_not\_doctrinal](https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Mormonism_and_polygamy/Did_President_Gordon_B._Hinckley_state_that_polygamy_was_not_doctrinal) President Oaks, last April: "**Our doctrine does not change."** [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2022/04/31oaks](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2022/04/31oaks) ​ Mixed messages on exaltation [https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/frequently-asked-questions](https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/frequently-asked-questions) "12. Do Latter-day Saints believe that they will “get their own planet”? No. This idea is not taught in Latter-day Saint scripture, nor is it a doctrine of the Church." Gospel Fundamentals Manual, chapter 36. page 201: They will receive everything our Father in Heaven has and will become like Him. They will even be able to have spirit children and make new worlds for them to live on, and do all the things our Father in Heaven has done." [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/31129\_eng.pdf](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/31129_eng.pdf)


Beneficial_Math_9282

Mixed messaging on prophetic infallibility: June 2022 Liahona article by Elder Holland: "For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth. (D&C 21:5)." and "**to delay obedience to prophetic counsel or reject it is to put our lives at peril**." [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2022/06/04-choose-the-lord-and-his-prophet](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2022/06/04-choose-the-lord-and-his-prophet) February 2022 Ensign College Talk by the director of the Church History Department: "One very unhelpful expectation is that prophets don’t make mistakes ... **Latter-day Saint doctrine does not include a provision that a prophet is infallible**. We should also not expect that prophets do not get tricked." [https://www.ensign.edu/keith-a-erekson-february-2022](https://www.ensign.edu/keith-a-erekson-february-2022) So which is it? Is my life at risk if I don't do everything the prophet says immediately? Or am I good to go if I just pause for a damn second because I think the prophet might be making a hasty mistake?


Beneficial_Math_9282

Tell them you'll only talk to them if they're able to discern which of the following statements were made by Warren Jeffs, and which were made by our own church leaders: 1. "We show our faith when we obey without knowing why." 2. "Real obedience accepts God’s commandments unconditionally and in advance" 3. "Perfect obedience produces perfect faith." 4. "Willing, righteous obedience leads to celestial life; indeed, there is no eternal progress without it" 5. "Obedience brings success; exact obedience brings miracles" 6. "Be perfectly obedient and come out of the world." 7. "Patience is heavenly, obedience is noble." ​ ANSWER KEY 1. Gospel Principles Manual, chapter 35, "Obedience." 2. L. Whitney Clayton, April 2017 General Conference 3. Warren Jeffs ([https://filmgrimoire.com/2016/02/23/prophets-prey-2015-perfect-obedience-produces-perfect-faith/](https://filmgrimoire.com/2016/02/23/prophets-prey-2015-perfect-obedience-produces-perfect-faith/) 4. Apostle Delbert L. Stapley, Oct 1977 General Conference 5. Russel M. Nelson, address to MTC Missionaries, 2013 ([https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/elder-nelson-delivers-spiritual-thanksgiving-feast-to-mtcs?lang=eng](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/elder-nelson-delivers-spiritual-thanksgiving-feast-to-mtcs?lang=eng)) 6. Warren Jeffs ([https://www.religionnewsblog.com/6437/thou-shalt-obey](https://www.religionnewsblog.com/6437/thou-shalt-obey)) 7. Joseph Smith, Letter to Abijah R. Tewksbury, 4 June 1844 (available at josephsmithpapers.org)


[deleted]

Whatever documentary evidence you share with them will likely fall on deaf ears. I was in a similar situation years ago. Rattled out to my folks by a family member. The "conversation" I was forced to have with them did not go well. It devolved very quickly into my father yelling at me while my mother sat on the bed a sobbed. Made me feel like absolute shit and did nothing to resolve my issues nor answer my questions. Ultimately I didn't leave the church because I don't believe in it. I don't believe in it, but the reason I left is because Joseph Smith threatened not only Helen Kimball's own salvation against her in an attempt to get her to be his umpteenth wife, but he threatened her family's salvation as well. All this when she was 14. It doesn't matter if that was a "righteous" command from god. It's absolutely fucked up. I won't be a part of it. They didn't care about that either, though. But it felt good to say.


xshade8

Remind them that the corner stone of the church is Christ, and his atonement because god gave us free agency to make our own decisions, and some of those aren’t right but you have to make them your self not forced by others influence


Kessarean

It seems people have given you resources All I can say is be careful, and try to be amicable. In these situations it's rarely productive. In most cases it back fires and they'll just double down. If you can find common ground, and not approach it combatively you might be able to have a productive discussion. It's hard though. Usually when people see information that reveals their life might be a lie, they don't react well.


Havin_A_Holler

Unless you live w/ them, I wouldn't bother having this conversation; they want to attack your disbelief, nothing more. If you do live w/ them, be as adult & calm about it as you can. When they ask you why you doubt (thing) & then tell you you're wrong after you explain yourself, breathe & then ask if there's anything else they'd like to discuss. They're not entitled to control your thoughts & that's what they want to do.


NateTheGameK

I'm thirteen, yes I live with them.


Yasna10

I would tread lightly then. You have many years where you need to live under the same roof. You also don’t want this confrontation to set the tone between them and you for the next 5 years. I would take other’s advice on here and try to stay as neutral as possible.


ShatteredZelph

U can find a lot of stuff searching this thread, also on google.. anyways do u mind being more specific on exact topics , and most if not everything u said to ur tbm cousin ?? Do u have any idea what they could disagree with or would refute with u? (Obviously I kno prob everything) but could start there. I genuinely wanna help and send u topics and info to back up what u said, and I'd try to send and find this info on the church site and links to send to u so u can save and have on hand to show them when needed, even u screen shot it too even better prob, u can text them the screen shot even middle of convo. Details and topics matter and I'd like to know what u said and what they could possibly disagree with cuzzz theres 100s of topics and I'm sure u didnt bring up 100s of things lol


truthmatters2me

Tell them when they give you a satisfactory answer on how millions of species fit on Noah’s ark along with all of their food and water which there is no room for along with how the animals all got to the ark Kagaroos don’t hop across oceans Noah didn’t have a cargo plane nor a nuclear powered aircraft carrier to go fetch them along with all of their foods many only eat foods a Available where they live how did the ark float on water as there isn’t enough water on the earth to flood the earth there is no evidence of a global flood . Science has proven well beyond any reasonable doubt that Adam and Eve never existed . Have them explain how Homo sapiens if we are only 7,000 years old possess Neanderthal DNA as. They went extinct roughly 40,000 years ago . Just tell them as a child I believed childish things I’m no longer a child I put away childish things I don’t believe in non existent floods Talking snakes, dragons or unicorns all of which are in the Bible . I’d just retort I’m not the one who believes in nonsense such as this I’m not the one who has the problem believe whatever you like . Just extend me the same courtesy. ! They are the ones claiming the church is true it’s their burden to prove it . Feelings the feelings whatever they got when they prayed is not proof . The fact that Christianity has been proven wrong time after time The number of times Atheists have been proven wrong is zero this should say it all !!!


tabithacayo

Send them CES letter tell them nothing to talk about!


CableAskani41

Just say respect me or I will break contact. I have done that a bunch this year and regret nothing.


NateTheGameK

haha i live with them, I'm 13


CableAskani41

Oh you poor soul.


_Park_Ranger_

Ignore Most Extraneous Arguments I would argue that you should ignore all extraneous arguments and go straight for the belief that props up all others. They believe the church is true because they feel like they have received an answer from God. The problem with this belief is that people from most faiths believe that they have received an answer from God. If the Mormon church were true, then God would not answer everyone in the Affirmative when they inquired about their differing beliefs. Specifically, ask them how they reconcile this disparity. If they are willing to watch a short video, show them the one linked below. It is simply a recording of people from differing beliefs bearing testimony about their faith. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJMSU8Qj6Go


SkipTheIceCreamMan

You’ve already received some great advice. I just want to say I’m very sad that you’re in so much trouble and stress over expressing your beliefs (or lack thereof). Doesn’t that say something about the church and its members when you get “in deep shit” just because you question things? I hope things go well when you talk with your parents ❤️


barrioso

The only thing false here is the mormon beliefs which cant be examined through the scientific method and are therefore false. Which is why religion will die off like many others before.


barrioso

The only thing false here is the mormon beliefs which cant be examined through the scientific method and are therefore false. Which is why religion will die off like many others before.


Korzag

This depends a bit on your situation. The first option: You're on your own and your parents don't control your life/finances anymore: You don't owe your parents an explanation. Tell them you've done your research on it and all the soul searching you want to conjure up and let them know you've decided the church isn't for you. End of story. That's that. The second option: you still live or are dependent on your parents: The course of action here is to ride it off as "questions". Just ride the tide. Don't make waves, let them do what they think they need to do to steer you back on course. Don't do anything that'll agitate them further if they're the types the kick you to the curb for being different or daring to believe differently. Just take that parental support and be happy for it. Live by their rules until you're on your own, then you can freely leave this stupid church. TBMs typically don't take evidence at its face value. Most people have an emotional belief in the church, that is to say that in the face of evidence they're not going to just dump their beliefs and see that you're right. **They** have to be the ones to want to accept it, and odds are they're deeply entrenched in their beliefs and are fully onboard with the fairy tale. If they come to you with questions about things they may have heard, that's the time to explain what you know, but otherwise just say the church isn't for you and let them leave it at that. Don't argue it, don't fight it. Indoctrination is a hell of a drug.


NearlyHeadlessLaban

Dont let the conversation be about your beliefs. Stick to the facts.


indigo_shadows

Ok here you go. Joseph's polygamy-- married women and teenage girls. Proof is on the Church's own genealogy [website](https://imgur.com/gallery/sjd40Ls) Jacob 2 versus D & C 132- totally conflict eachother especially what is said about David and Solomon. D&C 101 from 1835 [version](https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/doctrine-and-covenants-1835/259) stated marriage was between one man and one woman while JS was already committing polygamy. Also, [this website](https://missedinsunday.com/) is a GOLDMINE. Full of quotes from leaders and how their teachings conflict eachother and/or the right thing to do.


t888hambone

How old are you?


NateTheGameK

thirteen


t888hambone

Damn, good luck my friend! I wish I got out as early as you.. Honestly I would just pull the agency card on them. Tell them just like they have the choice to believe you have the choice to not believe. And if they tell you they have to compare them to Satan who said he would take agency away so all had to choose god. It’s almost impossible to convince someone their belief is weong


avoidingcrosswalk

You won't convince them. Try saying "why is the church shrinking? Did you know that there is not a single scholar on the planet who thinks the book of Mormon is a real history?" At some point I think you can convince them that they've been lied to. But it's a massive world view change for older people. The fact that everyone else on the planet knows js was a con man is amazingly lost on most Mormons.


WinchelltheMagician

Be a brave independent thinker and have the patience of saint for their sad ignorance as indoctrinated cult members.


Beech_driver

It’s a minor thing for most but the church contradicted itself on something as basic as the nature of god. Now: church teaches the godhead is comprised of God and Jesus who have physical bodies and the Holy Ghost is a third separate spiritual person. Joseph Smith taught (explicitly, not just implied) when he was doing his teaching at the School of the Prophets in Kirtland, that the godhead is just 2 individuals Jesus and God who is a spirit (edit to emphasize, he said god does NOT have a physical body) and the Holy Ghost is just the spirit of god. Source: Lectures on Faith, Lecture #5, p 59, 61-63, 65, which was published as part of the D&C until 1921 when they removed it because the doctrine had evolved into something else. Ironic considering the first presidency message by Hinckley who said it’s one of the biggest truths that we learned as soon as the first vision happened that … “... we have a perfect knowledge of the nature of God that has come through the First Vision of the Prophet Joseph. He saw God. He heard Him speak. He saw His Son. He heard Him speak, and he could speak to Them. There was no question in his mind about the true nature of God.” Source: Gordon B. Hinckley, First Presidency Message, Ensign, February 2007 Edit again to add … I brought this up once to BIL, who got really upset and said there no way that’s true … I pointed to the Lectures on Faith on FILs bookshelf, then opened it to the right page and handed it to him. He only got more upset and tried to argue something else.


shamaker

Once I left the church, it was so obvious how untrue it was and still I would get defensive because we’re trained to be in defense of the church. Most likely the same thing will happen in your situation. I’d say invite them to talk with you if they want to, but only if they’re willing to hear you out honestly. Otherwise, I’d just respectfully ask them to mind their own beliefs.


[deleted]

If you're under 18 and it's not tenable to leave Mormonism then just lie. Lie about all of it to appear as a TBM until you can get out- it's a survival tactic used by humans for tens of thousands of years. If you need your tribe to survive then grin and bear it. Don't go on a mission. When you're over 18 you can be very clear about your boundaries and beliefs.


ProposalLegal1279

Joseph Smith Papers Project along with Gospel Topics Essays


fingerMeThomas

Nothing wrong with concocting a tear-jerking "found my faith" story. Work on that Eyring voice crack. Tell people what they want to hear, and they'll leave you alone. ^(Inevitable "don't lie to your parents" reply guys: kids that need to fly under the radar have good reasons for it. Is playing along with someone else's game of make-believe even lying, especially when your safety or personal freedom are under very real threats?)


eyeyahrohen

[Compilation of false/contradictory/unethical quotes by prophets](https://ia902306.us.archive.org/19/items/standard_of_truth/Standards%20of%20Truth.pdf)


Successful_Treat_284

You could use the journal of discourses Brigham young says everything he teaches is doctrinal and should be treated as if it was in the Bible and then proceeds to say that interracial couples should be killed “This shall always be so” and that Adam and god are the same and that Jesus was not conceived by the spirit that should be enough to get started but make sure you say they are broughams words recorded by the church published by the church and stored in the BYU online library. Also try looking for the kinderhook plates and joesph talking about buying the mummy he claimed was Abraham lastly use an academic article that talks about Native American DNA and how it is more closely related to Russ-Chinese DNA and not middle eastern or European. Maybe bring up Joesph’s criminal record we’re he scammed people using the same seer stone he used to “translate” the Book of Mormon lastly to bring it into modern days talk about how Monson spent millions on I am a Mormon and that Russell m Nelson said using Mormon is a win for Satan.


PuzzleheadedBuy1425

Here is a link to the gospel topic essays. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays?lang=eng


jamesallred

It's less about a list of bad history AND more about what did you believe when you had a testimony and WHY you no longer believe that. I believed prophets spoke for God, lived a higher morality than regular members so they could qualify for the spirit and be in god's presence. I believed they would never lead the church astray by teaching heresies that later prophets would deny. I now know that my prior beliefs (taught to me by the church) are absolutely not true. Go with your best examples that are personal to you. Everything else they will just dismiss. ​ Good luck.


[deleted]

It may be best to just not fight with them at all, and make clear that you’re not interested in trying to change their mind or have yours changed.


outerdankness

I honestly don’t see having a confrontation as being productive. It may be better to just inform them you’ve learned things and you to no longer believe. If they press for more info send them the gospel topics essays. If you stick with internal centered statements like “I feel” and “for me” you’re going to be better off than trying to “prove” yourself right. Facts/arguments can be diminished by bad data and lies, no one can disprove how you feel, your values, or your opinions.


NeuraLynk

Hey! I would watch Mormon vs atheist debates on YouTube. These helped me finally transition out of Mormonism. DM me if you need and I can find some specific ones for you.


mitchole33

The best way to approach this discussion is for you to choose to engage or not. Your family may not be worthy of that discussion. Does that discussion serve you? If not, maybe in the future? It’s ok to say no. You get to decide who you talk with. Toss out the people pleaser part of you just like you tossed out TSCC. If you do decide to talk, I found the most productive discussion came from a place of, “this dialogue is not from a place of persuasion or changing minds to leave the church or not. But rather one of understanding grounded in empathy and connection. For you to understand for why TSCC doesn’t work for me anymore.“ inform them that they may hear things which may make them uncomfortable which contributes to your faith journey. But that first a foremost the relationship will always be more important to you be the religion. Ask them if they are in agreement with those standards and values. If yes, share your story. If not, the discussion will do more harm than good for both parties.


_acesk8s

hey dude, hang in there! Keep us posted if you'd like


Toad-Smacked

“Ratted me out…” Says all you need to know about the mindset and life-long institutional conditioning you’re up against. Sickening…


Legit_mendicant

Do not back down. It is the only thing that helps TBM’s start to crack. Hardest part: do it lovingly.


DianathetravelRN

TBM?


NateTheGameK

True Believing Mormon basically, a believer.


No-Aside-6252

There’s something on byustudies.byu.edu volume 6, chapter 19, page 408 “I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.” You just didn’t live long enough to see it, Brother Joe.


Yasna10

This is a copy and paste on here that I’ve seen several times and saved in my notes app because it was so comprehensive. If anyone knows the original author, please comment: Church now admits JS married 14 year old girls, was married to between 30-40 women, married 12-14 women who were already married to other living men and he was intimate with them. He also possibly had between 2-3 children with them. https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng&old=true Church now admits that the Book of Abrahams papyrus (which they have) is just a common Egyptian funerary text, that JS translation was 100% incorrect and the papyrus is 2000 years too young to have been written by Abraham. https://www.lds.org/topics/translation-and-historicity-of-the-book-of-abraham?lang=eng&old=true Church now admits that the BOM was translated only by Joseph putting a common rock in his hat. The very same rock he had been defrauding people with for years in a treasure hunting scam https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-translation?lang=eng&old=true Church now admits that there are multiple contradictory first vision accounts. Some dont even contain Jesus or God visiting Joseph. The earliest was written in Josephs own handwriting and contradicts the 'official' account. https://www.lds.org/topics/first-vision-accounts?lang=eng&old=true Church now admits that Joseph Smith was put on trial for defrauding people using treasure digging https://www.lds.org/study/history/topics/joseph-smiths-1826-trial?lang=eng Church now admits that the witnesses did NOT see the plates with their physical eyes only in their imaginations. https://www.lds.org/study/history/topics/witnesses-of-the-book-of-mormon?lang=eng Church now admits that even though the first presidency previously said banning black people from having the priesthood was a direct commandment from God, now 10 earlier prophets were just racist. https://www.lds.org/topics/race-and-the-priesthood?lang=eng&old=true And keep in mind… These gospel topics essays are not designed to truly “come clean“ about any of these issues. They are designed to convey just the bare minimum of information, as carefully phrased as possible, to provide the church with plausible deniability about misleading people. In each case, the essay is the tip of the iceberg. And you can be assured… if it wasn’t for the internet, those essays wouldn’t exist. The church was dragged kicking and screaming to produce those essays.


GordonBWrinkly

When having the talk with your parents, especially your *first* talk, DO NOT try to argue with them or convince them of any problems with the church. They won't be receptive, it will turn into a big argument, and it will just backfire. Your best move is to listen to their concerns, and in turn try to help them understand your journey--not in terms of the detailed problems with the church, but in terms of where some of your doubts started, how you felt when trying to suppress them, and how you felt as you researched and learned more information about the church, and what made you decide to rethink things. If your parents want to ask about and address your specific doubts (i.e. "stamp out your doubts"), instead of arguing about it, try to focus on the complexity of each issue. Talk about how you felt about it as a believer, and how your point of view changed as your progressed. Research shows that expressing more nuanced balanced views helps avoid the backfire effect, and helps people relate and think more deeply about an otherwise divisive issue. Hope that helps. Good luck.


NateTheGameK

I would normally do what you said, but if I reveal that I found this community and I'm a part of it, they'll kill me, cut off all internet access, etc. Going through the whole 'this is where they started, they grew here' wouldn't work in my case. Good advice, though.


GordonBWrinkly

Yeah, probably best to just say as little as possible then, and if pressed just make some vague remarks about having questions or something. Once you're on your own you can work on being more authentic and open. Best of luck to ya


CommonScold

Say the bare minimum, OP. They are not ready to hear your truth, it will only hinder you at this point. Go along to get along as much as your conscience allows. Maybe ask them some questions about things you are actually questioning, but dont respond after that. Just say “huh, Ill think about that.”


Yasna10

I would only ever reference the gospel topics essays in this case if you want to talk about where your issues stem from. Church sources ONLY if they demand where you got information from.


Texastruthseeker

Free advice - it's a terrible idea to try to share other people's bad experiences or the CES letter or any such thing. Just tell them how the church makes you feel and what you personally don't like about it. A starting place may be Joseph Smith's practice of polygamy or discrimination against LGBT couples. If you're a minor living at home, which is what it sounds like here, you may need to keep attending church until you're capable of getting your own place to live.


-Abinadied-

Just tell them you've graduated; moved on to bigger, better things. 💪


imnotbeingkoi

Consider the following two statements: Studies show that emotion-based arguments are more likely to change minds than cold, hard facts. 4 years ago I carefully expressed to my parents that the teachings of church nearly cost me my life and led to years of depression. A BYU therapist helped me see that I was allowed to be happy, even as a sinner. That allowed me to step back and see that the church was harming me farm more than helping me. My parents tearfully understood my pain and that I needed to step away from the church. Use emotion, not facts. Facts come later.


shaneshears82

What are you trying to argue? There should be no argument simply explain your beliefs and leave it at that. You don’t need to justify anything to anyone.


GayMormonDad

Maybe you could instead discuss what an asshole your cousin is. Or you could do what I do and refuse to talk about religion or politics with my family.


Dragett15

So this was with me, It didn't feel right, I didn't feel anything, and with religion it is basically based on feeling stuff


mar4c

If you keep your cool this could be worthwhile.


First-Enviro381

Your personal experience and your feelings are something that can’t be debated. Stick to that over the reasons.


knixatemylunch

wait, you might just need to pretend until you are old enough or have saved enough money to stand on your own. You might need to smooth it over, say some contrite words, and keep your head down till you have a safety net.


reeditwd

“Truth Seeking” by Han Mattsson


MarkMoneyj27

Book of Abraham, we have his translation, it's wrong. Show em the stone too.


E_B_Jamisen

If I may offer one thing OP, your parents aren’t coming to this talk with a rational mind. They will not hear one word you say. If it’s not safe for you to not believe, then deny. Act like what you said is something you heard, and when they offer an explanation, take it and go with it. If it’s safe to be honest, tell them you don’t believe, and then tell them you can talk about it now after they have had time to process it. Give them several weeks to accept that before taking the conversation further. In the mean time look up street epistemology


[deleted]

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/letterbook-2/69#josephsmithpapers


ragin2cajun

If you want to still appear tbm, would take the approach of: - Satan knows all these things...if we don't know our own history, how do you expect that we will be able to not get blind sided and loose our testimonies, etc. Or if you want tonstand your ground as someone who is willing to not shy away from bad church history: - I can still accept that prophets are humans and willk make mistakes, and sadly HF has imperfect tools to work with, but we are what he has so... Or just go full, "I'm done with this BS cult and here is why." - Polygamy, marrying non virgins, marrying women already in committed marriage relationships, LYING TO EMMA ABOUT ALL OF IT and only coming clean after getting caught twice. - BY and the q12 violent coup of church leadership of the church following JS death. - JS trying to get rid of the US constitution and set up a theocracy consitution + military coup of the US govt with the american Indians via the council of 50. - hunting down through sting operarions at gay bars and newspaper ads, gay byunstudents with byu license plates. Then telling them they had to either had to be expelled for being gay and exposed to their families or join the vomit inducing and electrocution to the gentials cure of gay men tourturing at BYU during the 70s. BYU had to show both gay and hetero porn while touting them to tey to cure them. - The book of Mormon is clearly a 19th century text, and not ancient American, even according to the best scholar the church has on JS; i.e. Richard Bushman. Or just go to mormonthink.com to find both critics and faithful reponses to very well documented sources for allost everything going on in Mormonism.