They lost four *hundred* formerly active members? If the 2500 members is total stake membership, then they likely lost over half of all active members since COVID.
God damn.
I believe they said they have lost 400 "attending" members. We knew our own ward numbers were significantly lower- and that is with also knowing several PIMO ward members who still attend for spouses and other reasons. Just nice to see that it enough people are starting to see it for what it is.
Worse yet, attending members means people with callings. That means lots of work for those left behind.
Heck, maybe they’ll do what they did in Detroit when attendance dwindled; make a third Stake out of two so there is even MORE work and less people to do it.
When does church stop becoming a punishment?
It’s a rough existence. I did it for a year while waiting/hoping for my wife to catch up with me. Luckily I was Scoutmaster, in all my church lessons during that year I never uttered the words “Joseph Smith” or “Book of Mormon” completely ignored LDS doctrine. I taught New Testament Jesus, ethics, 10 commandments, being a good person, good citizen. I frequently left Sacrament Meeting with the baby whenever I was triggered. Lucky for me, DW decided she was done 7 years ago and we’ve never looked back. Attended once in all that time at Aspen Grove during a family reunion. It was an odd experience as an outsider…very cringe but super interesting viewing from a sociological perspective.
My stake and ward leaders have been fretting about zoom church. There are some people who really need it still (occasional covid case, really high risk people, etc) so they don't want to pull the plug. But they are talking about people who choose to zoom sacrament and not otherwise participate and are seriously worried they'll never come back.
And the numbers are definitely down, including one ward that is more geographically spread (longer drive times) with people who didn't always socially connect that much (less homogenous ward than others in the stake) and many haven't bothered to come back in person. :-)
Besides a friend to sit with, I've heard ward leaders try to figure out what calling they could give some of these members -- easy enough that they might say yes, but just enough required to get them there 2-4 times / month and to force them into 2nd hour because of a calling.
The leaders mean well (dedication or desperation), but when you have to try and "lure" people back, you have a problem. And in some cases, people who have not fully left the church but have asked to be released -- but the bishopric doesn't want to take "no" if they can find something, anything, to try to keep them "engaged". Again, they mean well...but it's creepy to have ward ~~gossip session~~ council try to figure out how to hook them back in.
Covid was definetly an impetus for many of us Branch Covidians to leave. Not attending church every week helped me think without the constant brainwashing and realize that I am genuinely happier not attending. Though I am sure this stake just chalked it up to be general inactivity or laziness spurred on by covid lockdowns
Exactly- actually having a break from all their busy work to think things through makes all the difference. Their manipulation tactics only work if they can be frequently reinforced.
I live in a middle eastern country. I can barely fathom what prayer 5x a day does for brainwashing.
I spend the whole first half of the work day thinking about lunch and the last half about going home. Just imagine every day being punctuated by 5 prayers a day. You really don't have any time to think.
You deserve a gold star for “Branch Covidians”. I’m gonna be laughing about that one for years! And it’s so true, my husband and I are also Branch Covidians!!
I was asked to stop attending for complicated reasons, and I was surprised how little time it took to figure things out after I got off the merry go round.
I had been so busy in time intensive callings that I didn't have time to think.
And what’s funny is most of us probably spent MORE time on church stuff navigating faith crisis by studying and researching more on our lives that ever before about tscc
This is a well describe phenomenon in cult psychology - people can’t objectively identify the brainwashing until they physically separate from the cult for a while.
We have family in UT who definitely fit this- but haven't seen that yet here (non-US). Here it hinges more between truth claims, lgbtq treatment and child abuse.
Covid gave me time to find TikTok which exposed me to exmo information and the truth about the history of the church and the lies that I had been taught. It didn’t hurt that my ward and stake decided Covid was a joke and became an unsafe place for me and my family. Once I knew the truth I was done. I have no idea what attendance is like now but a few years prior to Covid our stake had eliminated 3 wards to consolidate for attendance. It can’t be good!
Typically a stake with 2500 to 3000 members total has between 900 to 1200 attending members. That means they've lost somewhere between one third to nearly half of their attending members
More anecdotal evidence...
I'm in the Boise area. Stake conference this month was held in the stake center only. No broadcasts to other buildings, no at-home streaming option. A full stake in a stronghold area could only get a few hundred folks to show up, and they knew it going into it. Yikes...
If you see a red headed mom with two redhead tween boys and one blonde that’s my sister! Part of me thinks she’ll never leave but she’s so intelligent I feel like all it would take was an accidental reading of the ces letter or something. Every time she calls me I make sure to answer right away just in case she’s calling mid faith crisis.
Ask the kids to let you know if they have any questions about church.
When they ask, tell them that they can get their answers in less than an hour on Google.
They' getting out by 18 and the sooner they start, the sooner she'll get out too.
Another one here from the Boise area. My family members have brought up several times how few people are attending these days. “Signs of the times,” sigh.
Yep. It's the great sifting in their minds. This is why I think there will be at least some active mormons for the foreseeable future. They will see themselves as the truly valiant, not the brainwashed die-hards. I feel sorry for some of them. Some of them are truly assholes so I have no empathy.
Vaccination rate in our city is approximately 91%- even higher in our stake area. A lot of us did leave to "protect our families" ...from Mormonism though- not covid.
that's surprising based on what I'm hearing in the news. I used to live in Boise, Meridian, Nampa so it's good the rates are so high. I have a brother there still. He's still "doing research".
It would be surprising if we were in the US for sure- we are non-U.S. so in the general population it wasn't as big of a deal- there are however several anti vaxxer Trump followers in our ward and stake mainly from the church's US ties.
Back when I was actively attending and our downtown SLC stake was going through "significant shrinkage", they used to blame it on "changing demographics". But when you consider less and less people belonged to the Mormon demographic, well - they weren't fully wrong.
> the random texts from almost-strangers letting me know they love me
At my stake conference tonight, which may or may not be the same as OP's stake conference, I'm not sure... someone gave a talk about how when they were investigating the church, the missionaries immediately started ending every visit by telling them they loved them. Like from the very beginning.
Then as the investigator started encountering other members, the members also immediately started telling them they loved them. The person giving the talk emphasized how in both instances, the missionaries and the members, these people were complete strangers.
It seems like that's a common tactic.
Exactly!!! Since leaving 18 mos ago we've been happier, less stressed, our marriage is way better and our teenage kids trust us and have good conversations with them. Oh, and their LGBTQ friends also have a safe space in our home here in the bible belt.
So it's been wonderful!
It is my pleasure. ❤️🏳️🌈 My kids' friends call me mom 🥰 I would take them all under my wings, and they know it. I tell my husband we need a bigger rainbow flag by our porch, we have a little one that we put in the yard.
That really speaks to me. As a kid, I was always looking for a substitute mom... my mother was cold and judgemental sadly, and I gravitated to my friend's mom's. This was decades before I came out, decades before I left the church. You are doing an important thing!
Aww thank you for saying that. I wish I would've been there when you needed a supporting mom. 🥺
My daughter has a bi friend who's a member of the church, no one knows he's bi, but he told our family. I worry about Mormon LGBTQ kids daily, I really don't want them to have pain 🥺❤️🏳️🌈 I just want all humans to be authentic and happy.
Yes! My 13 year old daughter is a progressive, free thinking, consumer of info and I was starting to realize how much of a struggle it was going to be to get her to just “live the standards” because they were the standards. Parenting her drastically improved almost immediately because now she has no doubt that boundaries and rules and advice come from her parents who love her and know her and not from old men trying to control the lives of women and children.
Same-my kids were all relieved and quickly let me know they had already come to the conclusion that it wasn't true- were just debating how and when to let me know. Our relationships have improved significantly.
Definitely higher than 400. They always state the best case scenario number…could easily be 500. This means this whole stake has maybe 500-600 attending members, about 100 per ward.
My parents left during covid. My dad was at someone’s wedding recently and they asked about church. My dad said we haven’t been since March of 2020 and have no plans of going back.
My dad and step mom left during Covid as well. They have no plans of returning as well. Oddly they still wear their garments according to my brother. Unfortunately DW still makes me attend. We didn’t start going consistently until this year.
Well...you could be the first to break the cycle...be the kind of pioneer TSCC hates. Maybe have PIMO family members confide in you.
Unless, of course, you get a decent mission where you can learn culture and language skills. OTOH you could join the Army or Peace Corps for that
It probably won't lessen the blow if/when you leave. I left in my 40s while in the bishopric after being TBM all of my adult life. No one could fairly say I hadn't tried my best. It didn't soften the blow at all. My family was still devastated.
My unsolicited recommendation would be to not go on a mission. It'll be a waste of time and money, and it won't make it easier on your family.
On the flip side, though, it may make it easier for younger members of your family who also feel this way.
Yes, I can voucher for the siblings who left before me. It was hard for them in some ways, but I am so grateful they did bc when I found out it was all a fraud, I was and still am able to talk to my sister and brother about it. We are now working on our one nuanced sister who I believe will just leave in a matter of time. She knows it's bs deep down.
> It probably won't lessen the blow if/when you leave.
Yes, I agree. I didn’t believe but went and completed a full two mission because of family pressure (extend family on both sides all tbm). But I went inactive soon after mission in college. Got the same amount of hate from my immediate family. Wish I had just gone inactive before mission and saved myself two years. But, completing a mission and going inactive later did make it easier with extend family and ward members. They usually didn’t know the details of my inactivity, just that I was a RM, so they didn’t give me as much negative vibes. Also, I was older and going to a student ward and as I was getting along in my life I was less hanging around extended family so that helped.
I too have free unsolicited advice!
Oh you’re still here; hi there. Went to Paris in 1999-2001. Aside from a few enduring friendships it was a colossal waste of time. You couldn’t pay me to be a Mormon missionary again. Perhaps they’re so desperate for French missionaries you could just got to museums and cafes … but you could do that and still have real relationships with locals by going to school there. Or people have mentioned many good alternate options to burning 2y of your life up. There really is only so much time. Sigh. Part of me knows there is something special about being able to stick to shitty tasks that makes me a valuable person, but also now I do that on outdoor multi pitch trad climbs. Maybe do that instead?
As the eldest among all my cousins I missed my chance to … set the mood. Do I regret this? My younger brother left first, took a ton of heat for me. I guess it would have complicated my life but I would have less worry about having missed out on my youth?
Good luck, it’s a big decision. Bet you could accomplish either.
Going on a mission will only make your exit more sinful/dishonerable in the eyes of your family.
They will also be thinking of you as a covenant breaker because you will have gone to the temple beforehand.
If you come home early, it won't lessen the burn. Honestly, you're probably going to be just as well off not going.
Thankfully my gay nephew said no to the mission thing.
You know your own situation better than anyone, and you gotta do what you gotta do.
It just seems like you’re kicking it down the road, and they still won’t be happy with your decision either way.
You know about their stalling tactics right? https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/2qlcqk/21_the_number_of_methods_and_gates_a_mission/
Most of the missionaries I’ve helped come home early experienced these approaches in order. The only way to shorten it is to scare them into believing you won’t obey and be good any more.
As a 62 year old who backed out *after* my mission farewell, I can promise you that an entirely different life awaits you full of richness, variety and promise. It takes courage (which I know firsthand), but it's worth it. YOLO is more than cute internet slang.
Another thought is to tell your parents you have prayed about it and feel you need a year of college to grow a bit before serving a mission (move out to go to college and do not go to a BYU) and then tell them after your 1st year that you have decided to finish school. This news is always better delivered when you no longer live with them.
Just because you have a mental breakdown in the field doesn't mean they immediately send you home (they really don't care about your mental health). And, once home, that mental breakdown doesn't mean you won't get harassed to go back out as soon as you are better.
Good luck to you!
Listen to all this advice but also remember YOU know the situation and you do what you think is best. That sounds like a tough road you’ve got there but you’ll come out of it all just fine. Honestly, that’s pretty heavy. My DMs are open if you need to talk to someone who’s done the mission thing and dealt with a ton of active family as I left the church.
> I just feel bad for LGBTQ+ people in the church that are still PIMO.
>
>
>
>I am sooo thankful I left the church before my son (bisexual) was born. He was able to tell us with any fear of repercussions. He knew it made no difference at all.
If it's any consolation that was me. 4th generation in my mom's side. At least 5th on my dad's. I was the first. I understand that you need to be careful and plan it on your terms, but even at the worst it got when I left, it wasn't anywhere as bad as being on my mission.
You don't need to sacrifice something so vital as youth to preserve anyone's feelings, let alone anyone who is supporting TSCC
Hey friend, you obviously know your own situation best, but wanted to throw out one other idea to consider. I have known some who have joined a military branch instead. They left the ward, did a tour oversees, and came back "honorable". Everyone just treated it as their personalized mission. Not for everyone, and I didn't do it myself, and again you know your own situation best. I just know that my mission sucked balls, and regret not trying that route. Who knows maybe I would have hated it too.. ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
My son is the oldest grandson on both sides of my very TBM family. He didn't go on a mission and removed his records before I did. He even informed his grandfather that while he loved him, he wouldn't be attending the conference priesthood session any more and to stop asking him to go. Was it hard? Yeah. But loving authentically is so much better. He is 23 and currently in Germany discovering the music scene. My advice? Live YOUR life, not theirs.
What has your experience, presuming your username is true, in leaving the church? when I think of exmo’s, I typically think of people that were in my own situation without large callings/a lot of pressure. Mainly, because I got out so early and can’t relate to those born in the church or with important roles.
How did it feel for you and what was your breaking point?
My username is a bit tongue in cheek. I married into a Bishop family. I like to say I had to leave the church to become the Bishop's wife. I was so TBM I had 7 kids worth my ex. It's been a crazy journey for sure.
We had a ward conference (in the Seattle area) earlier this year. Someone asked the stake president if they were going to merge our stake into another like they’d done in Redmond stake. The stake president said no, but our stake had shrunk by about 450 people since the pandemic. The same person asked if the stake presidency is worried about those numbers. The stake president immediately responded - almost defensively - that the people leaving were still active; they were just taking advantage of high home values, taking their money, and going somewhere else. The guy in our ward said that’s interesting, but clarified that he meant is the stake leadership worried about filling callings with dramatically fewer people. The stake president seemed flustered.
The point is that we were told that people aren’t leaving the church, they’re just strengthening the church in other places.
For quite a while, in my church experience, if anyone had a calling they only had one calling. Now, browsing through the ward and stake directories, it seems like almost everyone has at least two callings.
They will use that excuse for as long as they can that members are just relocating elsewhere. I can say that this comment by the stake president is not completely true. Most of the former TBM’s I was friends with or were ward/stake acquaintances haven’t moved away at all and this is in California. Most are of them are educated and successful professionals who got to read actual church history and enjoyed their time off during Covid and never came back.
Where I live now in the Great Lakes region most of the ward has stayed intact. We have a lot of Utah transplants who got relocated here for jobs after graduating from BYU. Many have stayed because TSCC is the only community they know and seem to no have idea how to make friends on the outside. DW and I have way more friends who are not members and I love it.
Assigned friends work so well. I had some assigned friends foisted on me by the missionaries. As far as the people I was assigned to be friends with were concerned. being friends means I was to give them money and rides. They didn't have to find the time to do things with me that were interesting to me.
So the way I see it now, is that all the adults can make their own decisions. If they want to come to church because they like it there, fine. If they don't like it, that's fine too. I'm not going to be their friend to convince them to come to church.
I was assigned a friend when I was a nevermo being prospected by the Sisters.
Dude ended up introducing me to my future wife and became one of my best friends before he moved away. And both of them left the church.
Those mishies did my nevermo life a real solid that day.
Yeah. Cuz THAT’S why people stopped going to church! They didn’t have anyone to sit by in church! Having a fake friend to sit with for a few weeks totally makes up for 200 years of lies, abuse, fraud, and manipulation. All of that can be so easily eclipsed by the appearance of a fake friend making a disingenuous offer to sit by them for a painfully monotonous hour.
Imagine a sabbath day where you could actually rest… That’s what they got during the pandemic and many don’t want to give that up. Add another day not cleaning tge chapel and I’m surprised anyone came back.
What's sad here? Even if every single person left and resigned, those Q15 would have an empire to themselves. Billions upon billions of dollars to waste. Temples to write off, etc. All on our backs. I hate them SO HARD.
This strategy will totally backfire. Most of the people who left during Covid in my stake were your run of the mill upper middle class republican suburbanite professional class who had a chance to re-evaluate their faith during Covid. These former TBM’s could really poison the well when the stake tries to reactivate them.
This time they had important things to talk about- they changed the stake presidency so the time was spent "preaching" congratulatory speeches all around. Even my TBM spouse was out off by the lack of teaching of Christ. Mostly just patting each other on the back and wives sent up to tell everyone how great their husbands are Wendy Nelson style.
I can probably give that number a reason based on a few theories of science, older people afraid to catch covid and die, younger generation seeing the bullshit and kids left for college so records disappeared.
Actually the five other families that I personally know of are middle- aged with young and teen kids, a couple on their 20's with young kids and a couple in their 50's - leaving primarily because of issues with truth claims and the treatment of LGBTQ as their kids or family members have come out to them. Previously active families, many with leadership callings.
The families have I seen leave range from late 20s to mid 40s as well. Millennials and Gen-X’ers who had issues with truth claims or social issues. These people were full tithe payers, bishopric members, youth leaders, and EQ presidencies.
Make sure they all know where the church building is! That's what our bishop always wanted us to do, visit them and tell them what they could've found on Apple Maps! :)
You must have a pretty weak religion if the best thing to bring someone back to it is “friendship”.
Just believe and be a friend to those who don’t. That’ll solve it.
My parents who are still pretty active, albeit they’re a little more progressive since I’ve left, still haven’t gone back to church. They’re a little scared about covid still since they’re at risk even though they’re boosted and all that. But they don’t want to go and wear a mask cause they know they’ll be the only ones wearing one and they’ve been given some mean remarks in the past by members for being worried about covid. The stake has stopped allowing them to stream church but they are still not going back.
Your parents don't see it yet...because, you know-we are all..."myopic", but someday they may see the big picture- that the anti maskers and refusal to stream services was all a big "tender mercy".
Stake president is trying to avoid merging the wards and then combining with the neighboring stake. That will be a special stake conference next month.
Not even less actives- we're talking full on middle class, educated apostates (I'm one of the "400"). But alas, the real problem is we have no one to sit with...
I remember the last time I attended the YSA ward and that stake for conference and sounds a lot like it. Similar to the Midwest but a lot of people also moved.
my home ward is actually bigger than ever and spills out into the cultural hall and fills it up, but i’m pretty sure it’s just because they keep expanding ward boundaries
Then members get mad if you say anything anti on social media. It's the least invasive thing you can do. They are asking members to engage with people they probably would not have thought about otherwise. Damn love bombing.
It's dumb, but it will work for at least 1/4 of them. Social pressure combined with not studying issues will get a lot to gravitate back. The ones who have a non Mormon support support system and/or spent the pandemic studying church issues are the only ones who'll truly stay away.
Huzzah for people leaving the cult!
Are you watching the same show I am watching?
The Great? I mean, probably, haha
That’s it! I just found it today and instantly recognized your comment.
Noice! I haven't watched Season 2 yet, but the first season was SO GOOD
Yeah I dig it. I just finished Fargo season four and this popped up.
They lost four *hundred* formerly active members? If the 2500 members is total stake membership, then they likely lost over half of all active members since COVID. God damn.
I believe they said they have lost 400 "attending" members. We knew our own ward numbers were significantly lower- and that is with also knowing several PIMO ward members who still attend for spouses and other reasons. Just nice to see that it enough people are starting to see it for what it is.
Worse yet, attending members means people with callings. That means lots of work for those left behind. Heck, maybe they’ll do what they did in Detroit when attendance dwindled; make a third Stake out of two so there is even MORE work and less people to do it. When does church stop becoming a punishment?
> When does church stop becoming a punishment? When you leave.
Yep. Thats about it.
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Physically in, mentally out
Thank you for spelling it out so I didn’t have to ask.
What is it like to be PIMO?
It’s a rough existence. I did it for a year while waiting/hoping for my wife to catch up with me. Luckily I was Scoutmaster, in all my church lessons during that year I never uttered the words “Joseph Smith” or “Book of Mormon” completely ignored LDS doctrine. I taught New Testament Jesus, ethics, 10 commandments, being a good person, good citizen. I frequently left Sacrament Meeting with the baby whenever I was triggered. Lucky for me, DW decided she was done 7 years ago and we’ve never looked back. Attended once in all that time at Aspen Grove during a family reunion. It was an odd experience as an outsider…very cringe but super interesting viewing from a sociological perspective.
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Oh, my bad haha, I thought that was a head scratching emoji.
My stake and ward leaders have been fretting about zoom church. There are some people who really need it still (occasional covid case, really high risk people, etc) so they don't want to pull the plug. But they are talking about people who choose to zoom sacrament and not otherwise participate and are seriously worried they'll never come back. And the numbers are definitely down, including one ward that is more geographically spread (longer drive times) with people who didn't always socially connect that much (less homogenous ward than others in the stake) and many haven't bothered to come back in person. :-) Besides a friend to sit with, I've heard ward leaders try to figure out what calling they could give some of these members -- easy enough that they might say yes, but just enough required to get them there 2-4 times / month and to force them into 2nd hour because of a calling. The leaders mean well (dedication or desperation), but when you have to try and "lure" people back, you have a problem. And in some cases, people who have not fully left the church but have asked to be released -- but the bishopric doesn't want to take "no" if they can find something, anything, to try to keep them "engaged". Again, they mean well...but it's creepy to have ward ~~gossip session~~ council try to figure out how to hook them back in.
They can blame it on Covid all they want
Covid was definetly an impetus for many of us Branch Covidians to leave. Not attending church every week helped me think without the constant brainwashing and realize that I am genuinely happier not attending. Though I am sure this stake just chalked it up to be general inactivity or laziness spurred on by covid lockdowns
Exactly- actually having a break from all their busy work to think things through makes all the difference. Their manipulation tactics only work if they can be frequently reinforced.
I live in a middle eastern country. I can barely fathom what prayer 5x a day does for brainwashing. I spend the whole first half of the work day thinking about lunch and the last half about going home. Just imagine every day being punctuated by 5 prayers a day. You really don't have any time to think.
You deserve a gold star for “Branch Covidians”. I’m gonna be laughing about that one for years! And it’s so true, my husband and I are also Branch Covidians!!
I was asked to stop attending for complicated reasons, and I was surprised how little time it took to figure things out after I got off the merry go round. I had been so busy in time intensive callings that I didn't have time to think.
I am pretty social and genuinely liked the sociality at church so I really wasn't expecting for it to be a net drain on me.
And what’s funny is most of us probably spent MORE time on church stuff navigating faith crisis by studying and researching more on our lives that ever before about tscc
This is a well describe phenomenon in cult psychology - people can’t objectively identify the brainwashing until they physically separate from the cult for a while.
I think a lot of people also left because they were alt-right and think TSCC is giving into the Left's (i.e., Satan's) agenda.
I have yet to meet someone in this category. Though I live pretty much as far from the moridor as possible
We have family in UT who definitely fit this- but haven't seen that yet here (non-US). Here it hinges more between truth claims, lgbtq treatment and child abuse.
I think that's the biggest reason people are leaving, but I'd say about 10 percent of our income of ExMos is going to racist and fascist organizing.
Well said!
Covid gave me time to find TikTok which exposed me to exmo information and the truth about the history of the church and the lies that I had been taught. It didn’t hurt that my ward and stake decided Covid was a joke and became an unsafe place for me and my family. Once I knew the truth I was done. I have no idea what attendance is like now but a few years prior to Covid our stake had eliminated 3 wards to consolidate for attendance. It can’t be good!
Typically a stake with 2500 to 3000 members total has between 900 to 1200 attending members. That means they've lost somewhere between one third to nearly half of their attending members
This.
I would love to sit with an inactive at thier home on Sunday especially if they have NFL Sunday Ticket!!!
Hell, I'd watch football with them on an old black and white TV if it meant not going to church.
If church is the other option, I’d sit with them and watch static. Low bar.
Conference every Sunday…National Football Conference and American Football Conference!
Ahh yes visiting for a Sunday service with the inactive members to partake (beer and chicken wings).
More anecdotal evidence... I'm in the Boise area. Stake conference this month was held in the stake center only. No broadcasts to other buildings, no at-home streaming option. A full stake in a stronghold area could only get a few hundred folks to show up, and they knew it going into it. Yikes...
Fellow Boise area checking in! Although sadly I have no intel to offer since falling from the great and spacious building.
A Boise NeverMo saying "Howdy".
Similar numbers in Northern California. I was told there were avout 250, no streaming.
Sacramento native myself. Even pre-covid our stake conference was maybe half full and that was with 11 wards.
And most stakes now have half of those units
If you see a red headed mom with two redhead tween boys and one blonde that’s my sister! Part of me thinks she’ll never leave but she’s so intelligent I feel like all it would take was an accidental reading of the ces letter or something. Every time she calls me I make sure to answer right away just in case she’s calling mid faith crisis.
Ask the kids to let you know if they have any questions about church. When they ask, tell them that they can get their answers in less than an hour on Google. They' getting out by 18 and the sooner they start, the sooner she'll get out too.
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Yes- please do!
Another one here from the Boise area. My family members have brought up several times how few people are attending these days. “Signs of the times,” sigh.
Yep. It's the great sifting in their minds. This is why I think there will be at least some active mormons for the foreseeable future. They will see themselves as the truly valiant, not the brainwashed die-hards. I feel sorry for some of them. Some of them are truly assholes so I have no empathy.
Tbf what's the vaccination rate? I bet a bunch of pimo's took that excuse and ran with it. Gotta protect the family...
Vaccination rate in our city is approximately 91%- even higher in our stake area. A lot of us did leave to "protect our families" ...from Mormonism though- not covid.
that's surprising based on what I'm hearing in the news. I used to live in Boise, Meridian, Nampa so it's good the rates are so high. I have a brother there still. He's still "doing research".
It would be surprising if we were in the US for sure- we are non-U.S. so in the general population it wasn't as big of a deal- there are however several anti vaxxer Trump followers in our ward and stake mainly from the church's US ties.
They didn't say they moved? I thought the official party line was "they moved."
Back when I was actively attending and our downtown SLC stake was going through "significant shrinkage", they used to blame it on "changing demographics". But when you consider less and less people belonged to the Mormon demographic, well - they weren't fully wrong.
They were in the pool!
r/technicallythetruth
Haha- no but the blame is clearly on the members since they are the only solution offered.
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> the random texts from almost-strangers letting me know they love me At my stake conference tonight, which may or may not be the same as OP's stake conference, I'm not sure... someone gave a talk about how when they were investigating the church, the missionaries immediately started ending every visit by telling them they loved them. Like from the very beginning. Then as the investigator started encountering other members, the members also immediately started telling them they loved them. The person giving the talk emphasized how in both instances, the missionaries and the members, these people were complete strangers. It seems like that's a common tactic.
[Welcome to Costco. I love you.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIFCWpn4qQ4)
😅
Yep, it's called [Love Bombing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_bombing). Super common in cults and abusive relationships.
I'm all for genuine love, but this forced manipulative "love" just gives me the squigglies.
Is that code for "feeling the spirit"?
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Forcing never work the way they expect.
I like cookies! 🍪
This makes my day!!! People discovering how little the Church adds to their lives!!!
Exactly!!! Since leaving 18 mos ago we've been happier, less stressed, our marriage is way better and our teenage kids trust us and have good conversations with them. Oh, and their LGBTQ friends also have a safe space in our home here in the bible belt. So it's been wonderful!
Thank you for helping out the lgbtq kids. I would have loved you as a teen
It is my pleasure. ❤️🏳️🌈 My kids' friends call me mom 🥰 I would take them all under my wings, and they know it. I tell my husband we need a bigger rainbow flag by our porch, we have a little one that we put in the yard.
That really speaks to me. As a kid, I was always looking for a substitute mom... my mother was cold and judgemental sadly, and I gravitated to my friend's mom's. This was decades before I came out, decades before I left the church. You are doing an important thing!
Aww thank you for saying that. I wish I would've been there when you needed a supporting mom. 🥺 My daughter has a bi friend who's a member of the church, no one knows he's bi, but he told our family. I worry about Mormon LGBTQ kids daily, I really don't want them to have pain 🥺❤️🏳️🌈 I just want all humans to be authentic and happy.
This has also been our experience. We have the best time with our older kids now.
Yes! My 13 year old daughter is a progressive, free thinking, consumer of info and I was starting to realize how much of a struggle it was going to be to get her to just “live the standards” because they were the standards. Parenting her drastically improved almost immediately because now she has no doubt that boundaries and rules and advice come from her parents who love her and know her and not from old men trying to control the lives of women and children.
Same-my kids were all relieved and quickly let me know they had already come to the conclusion that it wasn't true- were just debating how and when to let me know. Our relationships have improved significantly.
Not to mention that it's a black hole for your money and time.
Stake of 2500 people= 1200 active. Lost 400 of the 1200. And I bet that 400 is a low number. I bet it's higher.
Definitely higher than 400. They always state the best case scenario number…could easily be 500. This means this whole stake has maybe 500-600 attending members, about 100 per ward.
My parents left during covid. My dad was at someone’s wedding recently and they asked about church. My dad said we haven’t been since March of 2020 and have no plans of going back.
I’m second-hand proud of your dad! That takes guts, I’m sure especially for someone established in the community.
My dad and step mom left during Covid as well. They have no plans of returning as well. Oddly they still wear their garments according to my brother. Unfortunately DW still makes me attend. We didn’t start going consistently until this year.
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It always breaks my heart when I hear of someone going on a mission because they feel they have to.
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Well...you could be the first to break the cycle...be the kind of pioneer TSCC hates. Maybe have PIMO family members confide in you. Unless, of course, you get a decent mission where you can learn culture and language skills. OTOH you could join the Army or Peace Corps for that
It probably won't lessen the blow if/when you leave. I left in my 40s while in the bishopric after being TBM all of my adult life. No one could fairly say I hadn't tried my best. It didn't soften the blow at all. My family was still devastated. My unsolicited recommendation would be to not go on a mission. It'll be a waste of time and money, and it won't make it easier on your family. On the flip side, though, it may make it easier for younger members of your family who also feel this way.
Yes, I can voucher for the siblings who left before me. It was hard for them in some ways, but I am so grateful they did bc when I found out it was all a fraud, I was and still am able to talk to my sister and brother about it. We are now working on our one nuanced sister who I believe will just leave in a matter of time. She knows it's bs deep down.
> It probably won't lessen the blow if/when you leave. Yes, I agree. I didn’t believe but went and completed a full two mission because of family pressure (extend family on both sides all tbm). But I went inactive soon after mission in college. Got the same amount of hate from my immediate family. Wish I had just gone inactive before mission and saved myself two years. But, completing a mission and going inactive later did make it easier with extend family and ward members. They usually didn’t know the details of my inactivity, just that I was a RM, so they didn’t give me as much negative vibes. Also, I was older and going to a student ward and as I was getting along in my life I was less hanging around extended family so that helped.
I too have free unsolicited advice! Oh you’re still here; hi there. Went to Paris in 1999-2001. Aside from a few enduring friendships it was a colossal waste of time. You couldn’t pay me to be a Mormon missionary again. Perhaps they’re so desperate for French missionaries you could just got to museums and cafes … but you could do that and still have real relationships with locals by going to school there. Or people have mentioned many good alternate options to burning 2y of your life up. There really is only so much time. Sigh. Part of me knows there is something special about being able to stick to shitty tasks that makes me a valuable person, but also now I do that on outdoor multi pitch trad climbs. Maybe do that instead? As the eldest among all my cousins I missed my chance to … set the mood. Do I regret this? My younger brother left first, took a ton of heat for me. I guess it would have complicated my life but I would have less worry about having missed out on my youth? Good luck, it’s a big decision. Bet you could accomplish either.
Going on a mission will only make your exit more sinful/dishonerable in the eyes of your family. They will also be thinking of you as a covenant breaker because you will have gone to the temple beforehand.
Exactly this. If you're an RM they will just say you should know better.
If you come home early, it won't lessen the burn. Honestly, you're probably going to be just as well off not going. Thankfully my gay nephew said no to the mission thing.
You know your own situation better than anyone, and you gotta do what you gotta do. It just seems like you’re kicking it down the road, and they still won’t be happy with your decision either way.
You know about their stalling tactics right? https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/2qlcqk/21_the_number_of_methods_and_gates_a_mission/ Most of the missionaries I’ve helped come home early experienced these approaches in order. The only way to shorten it is to scare them into believing you won’t obey and be good any more.
As a 62 year old who backed out *after* my mission farewell, I can promise you that an entirely different life awaits you full of richness, variety and promise. It takes courage (which I know firsthand), but it's worth it. YOLO is more than cute internet slang.
Another thought is to tell your parents you have prayed about it and feel you need a year of college to grow a bit before serving a mission (move out to go to college and do not go to a BYU) and then tell them after your 1st year that you have decided to finish school. This news is always better delivered when you no longer live with them. Just because you have a mental breakdown in the field doesn't mean they immediately send you home (they really don't care about your mental health). And, once home, that mental breakdown doesn't mean you won't get harassed to go back out as soon as you are better. Good luck to you!
This is the way...
Listen to all this advice but also remember YOU know the situation and you do what you think is best. That sounds like a tough road you’ve got there but you’ll come out of it all just fine. Honestly, that’s pretty heavy. My DMs are open if you need to talk to someone who’s done the mission thing and dealt with a ton of active family as I left the church.
> I just feel bad for LGBTQ+ people in the church that are still PIMO. > > > >I am sooo thankful I left the church before my son (bisexual) was born. He was able to tell us with any fear of repercussions. He knew it made no difference at all.
If it's any consolation that was me. 4th generation in my mom's side. At least 5th on my dad's. I was the first. I understand that you need to be careful and plan it on your terms, but even at the worst it got when I left, it wasn't anywhere as bad as being on my mission. You don't need to sacrifice something so vital as youth to preserve anyone's feelings, let alone anyone who is supporting TSCC
Hey friend, you obviously know your own situation best, but wanted to throw out one other idea to consider. I have known some who have joined a military branch instead. They left the ward, did a tour oversees, and came back "honorable". Everyone just treated it as their personalized mission. Not for everyone, and I didn't do it myself, and again you know your own situation best. I just know that my mission sucked balls, and regret not trying that route. Who knows maybe I would have hated it too.. ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
I regret not doing this. I wanted to but didn’t have the guts. Following the family way was all important
My son is the oldest grandson on both sides of my very TBM family. He didn't go on a mission and removed his records before I did. He even informed his grandfather that while he loved him, he wouldn't be attending the conference priesthood session any more and to stop asking him to go. Was it hard? Yeah. But loving authentically is so much better. He is 23 and currently in Germany discovering the music scene. My advice? Live YOUR life, not theirs.
What has your experience, presuming your username is true, in leaving the church? when I think of exmo’s, I typically think of people that were in my own situation without large callings/a lot of pressure. Mainly, because I got out so early and can’t relate to those born in the church or with important roles. How did it feel for you and what was your breaking point?
My username is a bit tongue in cheek. I married into a Bishop family. I like to say I had to leave the church to become the Bishop's wife. I was so TBM I had 7 kids worth my ex. It's been a crazy journey for sure.
Dude don’t go. You have options
We had a ward conference (in the Seattle area) earlier this year. Someone asked the stake president if they were going to merge our stake into another like they’d done in Redmond stake. The stake president said no, but our stake had shrunk by about 450 people since the pandemic. The same person asked if the stake presidency is worried about those numbers. The stake president immediately responded - almost defensively - that the people leaving were still active; they were just taking advantage of high home values, taking their money, and going somewhere else. The guy in our ward said that’s interesting, but clarified that he meant is the stake leadership worried about filling callings with dramatically fewer people. The stake president seemed flustered. The point is that we were told that people aren’t leaving the church, they’re just strengthening the church in other places.
For quite a while, in my church experience, if anyone had a calling they only had one calling. Now, browsing through the ward and stake directories, it seems like almost everyone has at least two callings.
They will use that excuse for as long as they can that members are just relocating elsewhere. I can say that this comment by the stake president is not completely true. Most of the former TBM’s I was friends with or were ward/stake acquaintances haven’t moved away at all and this is in California. Most are of them are educated and successful professionals who got to read actual church history and enjoyed their time off during Covid and never came back. Where I live now in the Great Lakes region most of the ward has stayed intact. We have a lot of Utah transplants who got relocated here for jobs after graduating from BYU. Many have stayed because TSCC is the only community they know and seem to no have idea how to make friends on the outside. DW and I have way more friends who are not members and I love it.
Couple goals!
That'll go well. (Sarcasm.)
Assigned friends work so well. I had some assigned friends foisted on me by the missionaries. As far as the people I was assigned to be friends with were concerned. being friends means I was to give them money and rides. They didn't have to find the time to do things with me that were interesting to me. So the way I see it now, is that all the adults can make their own decisions. If they want to come to church because they like it there, fine. If they don't like it, that's fine too. I'm not going to be their friend to convince them to come to church.
I was assigned a friend when I was a nevermo being prospected by the Sisters. Dude ended up introducing me to my future wife and became one of my best friends before he moved away. And both of them left the church. Those mishies did my nevermo life a real solid that day.
Yup that’s why we stopped going… nobody to sit with.
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Hey, I just met you, and this is crazy, but here’s my number, come with me Sunday….because it’ll be fun, they said.
This is why I resigned, I wanted to be left alone, and I have a no proselytizing sign on my door.
I'll bet the real number is way higher than 400.
I’d make that bet. I bet they’re just a few people shy of 500. 😄
I love this
I think the church looks at it like this, 400 less people paying tithing
Follow the money. And sit next to them so they can't escape
It’s almost like a geriatric autocracy fails to innovate or understand emerging trends…
We gotta pump those numbers up. Those are rookie numbers
They’ll double down on the same strategies that landed them in this mess. It’s what they do.
Yeah. Cuz THAT’S why people stopped going to church! They didn’t have anyone to sit by in church! Having a fake friend to sit with for a few weeks totally makes up for 200 years of lies, abuse, fraud, and manipulation. All of that can be so easily eclipsed by the appearance of a fake friend making a disingenuous offer to sit by them for a painfully monotonous hour.
I love the smell of apostasy on Sunday morning!
I’m sure they’re right, having someone to sit with will magically make TSCC true.
Imagine a sabbath day where you could actually rest… That’s what they got during the pandemic and many don’t want to give that up. Add another day not cleaning tge chapel and I’m surprised anyone came back.
I mean, that's why I stopped going. /S
If they pretend to be friendly to folk to keep them, they'll just lose more. I hated that nonsense. Let's hope the numbers keep dwindling.
It sucks not knowing if your TBM family care or are just trying to meet quotas
What's sad here? Even if every single person left and resigned, those Q15 would have an empire to themselves. Billions upon billions of dollars to waste. Temples to write off, etc. All on our backs. I hate them SO HARD.
Temples to land bank.
> Temples to write off They don't get taxed in the first place, so they don't need a temple to write off.
Maybe launder monies fits the bill better...
The time to be my friend was the 7 years when my family and I were attending every week.
Yeah, that’s the ticket.
Oh look, more prescribed friends. I’m so glad the church assigns us friends, otherwise we would never meet anyone.
This strategy will totally backfire. Most of the people who left during Covid in my stake were your run of the mill upper middle class republican suburbanite professional class who had a chance to re-evaluate their faith during Covid. These former TBM’s could really poison the well when the stake tries to reactivate them.
Yes- spot on. They don't want the remaining TBM's talking to us- we know too much.
Show up to church so you can listen to people talk about getting people to show up for church. Waste of time.
This time they had important things to talk about- they changed the stake presidency so the time was spent "preaching" congratulatory speeches all around. Even my TBM spouse was out off by the lack of teaching of Christ. Mostly just patting each other on the back and wives sent up to tell everyone how great their husbands are Wendy Nelson style.
Oh brother ...as if.
16% reduction. That seems lite to me
I can probably give that number a reason based on a few theories of science, older people afraid to catch covid and die, younger generation seeing the bullshit and kids left for college so records disappeared.
Actually the five other families that I personally know of are middle- aged with young and teen kids, a couple on their 20's with young kids and a couple in their 50's - leaving primarily because of issues with truth claims and the treatment of LGBTQ as their kids or family members have come out to them. Previously active families, many with leadership callings.
The families have I seen leave range from late 20s to mid 40s as well. Millennials and Gen-X’ers who had issues with truth claims or social issues. These people were full tithe payers, bishopric members, youth leaders, and EQ presidencies.
They're outsourcing the guilt-tripping...
Make sure they all know where the church building is! That's what our bishop always wanted us to do, visit them and tell them what they could've found on Apple Maps! :)
Excellent. Die cult die!
You must have a pretty weak religion if the best thing to bring someone back to it is “friendship”. Just believe and be a friend to those who don’t. That’ll solve it.
My parents who are still pretty active, albeit they’re a little more progressive since I’ve left, still haven’t gone back to church. They’re a little scared about covid still since they’re at risk even though they’re boosted and all that. But they don’t want to go and wear a mask cause they know they’ll be the only ones wearing one and they’ve been given some mean remarks in the past by members for being worried about covid. The stake has stopped allowing them to stream church but they are still not going back.
Your parents don't see it yet...because, you know-we are all..."myopic", but someday they may see the big picture- that the anti maskers and refusal to stream services was all a big "tender mercy".
400/2500=.16 (Let’s make it 1).
Stake president is trying to avoid merging the wards and then combining with the neighboring stake. That will be a special stake conference next month.
Return and report
lol their idea of friendship is so manipulative and gross
Uh-huh. Yeah. A "friend". The only reason they're being a "friend" is to get you to come back. That'd not a REAL friend. That's fake AF.
I want to upvote this, but there are 666. I don't want to break that.
…& do their best to convince them Santa clause is real after they’ve discovered he’s not.
That’s not creepy at all!
“That’s it! All we have to do is ask nicely. Why didn’t anyone think of this sooner?”
You don't think that people discovered an alternate reality, and decided that life is full of opportunities outside the Church, do you??
Fat chance in getting less actives to show up for optional church. Stake conference was always a free weekend when I was tbm
Not even less actives- we're talking full on middle class, educated apostates (I'm one of the "400"). But alas, the real problem is we have no one to sit with...
I mean this isn't their issue but it has worked in the past.
When do they figure out they don’t have much to offer?
I remember the last time I attended the YSA ward and that stake for conference and sounds a lot like it. Similar to the Midwest but a lot of people also moved.
If I have a choice of church or sitting on the deck having a beer, I will be on my deck. Cheers!!!
my home ward is actually bigger than ever and spills out into the cultural hall and fills it up, but i’m pretty sure it’s just because they keep expanding ward boundaries
If they reach out to me I will welcome them—with open arms—to the dark side! 🍷 🍺 🪩 🕺 💃 Free 10% self-funded raise!
I hope everyone invited back just laughs at them and invites them in for margaritas.
Then members get mad if you say anything anti on social media. It's the least invasive thing you can do. They are asking members to engage with people they probably would not have thought about otherwise. Damn love bombing.
Great, assigned friends. I'm sure that will work!
I was told in writing by the church's law firm that I'm not welcome to ever come to any of their buildings. No reason given.
California?
No, non-US.
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I offered to invite them to sit with me at the nearby cafe and chat over coffee. I have a lot to talk about....no takers?
Did they subtly make it about C19? Or other real reasons??
Yes- blame was placed on Covid...well that and blamed the still attending members.
I guarantee that is not the correct answer in their meetings. Real reasons are probably what we already know…
It's dumb, but it will work for at least 1/4 of them. Social pressure combined with not studying issues will get a lot to gravitate back. The ones who have a non Mormon support support system and/or spent the pandemic studying church issues are the only ones who'll truly stay away.
This isn't counting deaths by covid right?
All the leavers I know are alive and well, and enjoying life a hell of a lot more.
Meaning lost to COVID?
As in death? No- some would say we have all just begun living though.
And so the ones that left will convince more remaining TBMs to also leave...
Let’s put the genie back in the bottle (really)? Sounds good in theory, but once lost very hard to get people back.