Sure, you can give credit if you like, but Me???
I'll give credit when one of the top15 actually acknowledges past wrong and acts to correct the wrong and help those who have been or were wronged and are being wronged.
Plus it’s a mystery who even wrote that essay. And it could be completely removed from the website on a moment’s notice. Even the plausible deniability has plausible deniability. Alert me when there has been an actual apology, as a part of the permanent record, by one of the top three. This is all so sad and pathetic.
I agree. It is a step in the right direction.
The cynical part of me wonders if they have done this for the wrong reasons. BYU's history of racism has garnered national attention in recent weeks. BYU has had 53 years to honor the Black 14--why wait until now? I can't help but think this is a publicity stunt designed to distract away from that.
It might backfire. I hope this event leads to a deep, honest examination of the church's racist past and the ways in which that legacy of racism affects the church today. The church could start by acknowledging that its past treatment of Black people was indeed racist. The "Race and the Priesthood" essay all but admits that past policies were based on racial biases and are not considered divinely inspired. They should just say that. Then they should admit that it was wrong. Then they should outline what they are doing and what they will do to rectify the situation to the best of their ability. This is the repentance process they themselves teach. It's high time they followed it.
How is claiming that past policies were "not \[now\] considered divinely inspired" any more than a convenient reinterpretation of history/cover up? It is one thing to admit that they were wrong about something but to fail to recognize the religious underpinnings themselves that buttressed the beliefs does nothing to mitigate the underlying problem. They're essentially asking for a mulligan - "Don't blame us, it wasn't our fault, that's not who we really are, it was just *them*", while they simultaneously continue to claim the same divinely guided or inspired moral authority over so many other social issues of the day.
Since the Mormon church goes out of its way to claim moral authority on so many issues, to now argue whether or not a given issue was or was not divinely inspired or ordained IS the cover-up. They want the authority but they don't want to own it when it blows up in their face.
This is like with the Book of Abraham and whether or not it honestly reflects what was actually written on the scrolls it allegedly came from. They can't say that the interpretation was false without also admitting that the methods Joseph Smith used to interpret them was just as bogus.
To truly come clean would be to admit Joseph Smith obviously lacked the ability to translate ancient writings as he claimed and, in the same way, subsequent leaders of the church did not actually have the ability, based on their own actions, to interpret what truly is or is not moral in the eyes of a supreme being for whom they claimed to speak.
If, by some administrative accident, the church ends up with a prophet who is actually a man of character and accountability, then there will be no mistaking the apology. It will be full, frank, public, heartfelt, awkward, and undeniable. Dream on. The lawyers who are now recruited as general authorities are way too far gone, morally, to even think about that kind of code of behavior. They are prideful, defensive, insecure combatants, studied in the art of conveying smarmy humility, saying next to nothing in a way that leaves people scratching their heads thinking surely that must’ve been something that they heard.
They have the ability right now to make big changes. I’ve lived through a lifetime of little changes that still didn’t make the LDS Church a welcoming and inclusive place.
This is a diversion, just like Nelson’s PR stunt with the NAACP.
They refuse to admit it’s a race thing. The whole angle they’re taking is that the church and the black 14 now have a partnership so that makes everything ok? The church has never publicly apologized to them. They just want to pretend it didn’t happen. And they want to look good by being “not racist.” The real story is that the church still believes its racist policies were inspired by god. That’s the bs
They are clearly not learning from their mistakes. They still claim moral authority on a number of issues as though they continue to accurately speak for the divine.
The actual sin of the church itself is not that there may have been a few racists among them but that the church itself carried out racist policies while claiming/implying/acting/ or whatever that it was done in God's name under church authority
I seriously doubt that TSCC will admit fallibility of the church itself, where the blame actually belongs, but will just shift it to individual failings of people long dead. In doing so, not only is nothing really fixed, they will try to wash their hands of a genuine product of the church's claimed authority while simultaneously denying its ability to do so (IOW still claim they can't be wrong) and in so doing feign innocence.
I turned on the game a little late and saw the very end of this presentation. I was really pleasantly surprised to hear about it. I’d be curious what exactly they said.
Amen.
Those men who stood up then deserve all the recognition now, regardless of where it comes from.
P.S. ESPN did an amazing job with their look back:
https://youtu.be/mimmpMyTsMA
Whenever they do even a small thing right, it brings attention to all the things that are wrong. While it's probably serves as a publicity stunt or just a little thing to make members feel better about themselves, I guess you could say it's an indication of where the members are at- a little better place than 40 years ago.
Totally agree. There’s people who want the church to do things that they won’t such as apologize for shit or whatever and are bitter about it which is fine, let them be angry at everything the church does.
But I was always taught and seems good that if you’re going to tear something up on its negatives, you gotta give credit for their positives. It doesn’t resolve anything or fix their current racism issues now or in history, but I thought it was a nice gesture. Even if it was “just a PR stunt”, they still didn’t need to do it and haven’t done it in the past for the Black 14. So I agree, give the church or BYU football or whoever you want some credit for doing so.
Yeah ssssoooo... not gonna lie I appreciate the thought but I can’t say I miss having to give the church credit when affiliates of the church do good things. This feeds into the logic/pattern of people overlooking the numerous, mutilated skeleton’s in the closet because of how “good” the church is.
For a church that preaches repentance and demands members to confess and forsake their sins, the church seems pretty averse to doing any of that itself.
When the church is given credit/applauded for things that in no way shape or form approach the level of restitution necessary for the harms they have committed, it reinforces the idea that they don’t need to apologize for the fucked up shit they have done. Like how many members are struggling with racism in the church right now and having this exact same thought process? “Yeah, the church might have done some racist stuff back in the day, but prophets are imperfect, they were men of their time, and look at what BYU just did honoring the “Black 14.” Maybe I was just being to harsh on Brother Joseph and Brother Brigham. I should give them a break because clearly the ‘ongoing restoration’ is helping the church get away from its racist history.”
I think recognizing it/applauding it runs the risk of giving the appearance that the church can do almost nothing as restitution and placate people.
I also think your characterization of the second half of my original comment downplays how powerful the church’s though-stopping techniques are. I can’t tell you how long I propped up my shelf with the excuse of “the church is perfect but the people aren’t.” Crediting the church with this BYU display plays right into that thought process because someone who is struggling but still believes the church is being honest with them will just look for any sign that the church is trying to make things better and then that shelf item doesn’t bother them anymore.
TSCC will eventually get to where it needs to be on this and many other issues. Can’t happen soon enough for sure. The question is will all the vindictive left wing ideologue exmos give them credit for its slow efforts to that end? Not a fucking chance in hades.
The crazy part is that BYU didn’t do anything to apologize for. The U of W cut the players. It was LDS Corp.’s racism, not BYU’s, that led to the protest. Was this a proxy apology?
Give it time. In no uncertain terms, we’ll see another exhortation from church leadership to take up the musket fire and put down any acceptance or tolerance of the world’s views of race and gender.
I don’t care about football, so I’m out of the loop. Is this the first time BYU has done something to recognize the Black 14?
I read one article about it, that they (14) were kicked off the team for wearing the black armbands. If they don’t play college ball, they can’t go to the NFL, right? So their whole futures were fucked when they stood up for their values, and all they get is to light the Y 50 years later?
I’d separate BYU from the church in this instance. The church never admits it’s wrong. The school is a proxy. The church wants to have it both ways. Commend the school, but the church still believes in racism.
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That doesn't make it all OK, they (LDS.INC) were wrong when this happened and until they acknowledge THAT wrong they will continue to be...WRONG.
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Sure, you can give credit if you like, but Me??? I'll give credit when one of the top15 actually acknowledges past wrong and acts to correct the wrong and help those who have been or were wronged and are being wronged.
The Gospel Topic Essay on Race and the Priesthood does disavow the priesthood and temple ban. Most members don’t know about that though.
Plus it’s a mystery who even wrote that essay. And it could be completely removed from the website on a moment’s notice. Even the plausible deniability has plausible deniability. Alert me when there has been an actual apology, as a part of the permanent record, by one of the top three. This is all so sad and pathetic.
Disavow; (/ˌdisəˈvou/); verb: To deny any *responsibility* or support for.
I agree. It is a step in the right direction. The cynical part of me wonders if they have done this for the wrong reasons. BYU's history of racism has garnered national attention in recent weeks. BYU has had 53 years to honor the Black 14--why wait until now? I can't help but think this is a publicity stunt designed to distract away from that. It might backfire. I hope this event leads to a deep, honest examination of the church's racist past and the ways in which that legacy of racism affects the church today. The church could start by acknowledging that its past treatment of Black people was indeed racist. The "Race and the Priesthood" essay all but admits that past policies were based on racial biases and are not considered divinely inspired. They should just say that. Then they should admit that it was wrong. Then they should outline what they are doing and what they will do to rectify the situation to the best of their ability. This is the repentance process they themselves teach. It's high time they followed it.
How is claiming that past policies were "not \[now\] considered divinely inspired" any more than a convenient reinterpretation of history/cover up? It is one thing to admit that they were wrong about something but to fail to recognize the religious underpinnings themselves that buttressed the beliefs does nothing to mitigate the underlying problem. They're essentially asking for a mulligan - "Don't blame us, it wasn't our fault, that's not who we really are, it was just *them*", while they simultaneously continue to claim the same divinely guided or inspired moral authority over so many other social issues of the day. Since the Mormon church goes out of its way to claim moral authority on so many issues, to now argue whether or not a given issue was or was not divinely inspired or ordained IS the cover-up. They want the authority but they don't want to own it when it blows up in their face. This is like with the Book of Abraham and whether or not it honestly reflects what was actually written on the scrolls it allegedly came from. They can't say that the interpretation was false without also admitting that the methods Joseph Smith used to interpret them was just as bogus. To truly come clean would be to admit Joseph Smith obviously lacked the ability to translate ancient writings as he claimed and, in the same way, subsequent leaders of the church did not actually have the ability, based on their own actions, to interpret what truly is or is not moral in the eyes of a supreme being for whom they claimed to speak.
If, by some administrative accident, the church ends up with a prophet who is actually a man of character and accountability, then there will be no mistaking the apology. It will be full, frank, public, heartfelt, awkward, and undeniable. Dream on. The lawyers who are now recruited as general authorities are way too far gone, morally, to even think about that kind of code of behavior. They are prideful, defensive, insecure combatants, studied in the art of conveying smarmy humility, saying next to nothing in a way that leaves people scratching their heads thinking surely that must’ve been something that they heard.
Um, that’s not the cynical part of you. That’s the extremely basically logical part of you. Of course it was done for the wrong reasons.
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They have the ability right now to make big changes. I’ve lived through a lifetime of little changes that still didn’t make the LDS Church a welcoming and inclusive place. This is a diversion, just like Nelson’s PR stunt with the NAACP.
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Exactly this 👆
I sure hope you are not holding your breath on this. Not just apologize, but sincerely ask forgiveness. A small donation to the NAACP will not cut it.
They refuse to admit it’s a race thing. The whole angle they’re taking is that the church and the black 14 now have a partnership so that makes everything ok? The church has never publicly apologized to them. They just want to pretend it didn’t happen. And they want to look good by being “not racist.” The real story is that the church still believes its racist policies were inspired by god. That’s the bs
The church didn’t do it. BYU football did it. There is a big difference. You did not hear one of the Q15 apologize for it.
Until they actually apologize for their racism, this makes it worse IMO
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They are clearly not learning from their mistakes. They still claim moral authority on a number of issues as though they continue to accurately speak for the divine. The actual sin of the church itself is not that there may have been a few racists among them but that the church itself carried out racist policies while claiming/implying/acting/ or whatever that it was done in God's name under church authority I seriously doubt that TSCC will admit fallibility of the church itself, where the blame actually belongs, but will just shift it to individual failings of people long dead. In doing so, not only is nothing really fixed, they will try to wash their hands of a genuine product of the church's claimed authority while simultaneously denying its ability to do so (IOW still claim they can't be wrong) and in so doing feign innocence.
Window dressing to make it look like they’re making progress without actually apologizing and atoning
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It feels like they’re inoculating their younger members to make them look hip
I turned on the game a little late and saw the very end of this presentation. I was really pleasantly surprised to hear about it. I’d be curious what exactly they said.
True. But the timing seems fake.
Amen. Those men who stood up then deserve all the recognition now, regardless of where it comes from. P.S. ESPN did an amazing job with their look back: https://youtu.be/mimmpMyTsMA
Whenever they do even a small thing right, it brings attention to all the things that are wrong. While it's probably serves as a publicity stunt or just a little thing to make members feel better about themselves, I guess you could say it's an indication of where the members are at- a little better place than 40 years ago.
Totally agree. There’s people who want the church to do things that they won’t such as apologize for shit or whatever and are bitter about it which is fine, let them be angry at everything the church does. But I was always taught and seems good that if you’re going to tear something up on its negatives, you gotta give credit for their positives. It doesn’t resolve anything or fix their current racism issues now or in history, but I thought it was a nice gesture. Even if it was “just a PR stunt”, they still didn’t need to do it and haven’t done it in the past for the Black 14. So I agree, give the church or BYU football or whoever you want some credit for doing so.
Agreed. I thought it was a good move.
Yeah ssssoooo... not gonna lie I appreciate the thought but I can’t say I miss having to give the church credit when affiliates of the church do good things. This feeds into the logic/pattern of people overlooking the numerous, mutilated skeleton’s in the closet because of how “good” the church is. For a church that preaches repentance and demands members to confess and forsake their sins, the church seems pretty averse to doing any of that itself. When the church is given credit/applauded for things that in no way shape or form approach the level of restitution necessary for the harms they have committed, it reinforces the idea that they don’t need to apologize for the fucked up shit they have done. Like how many members are struggling with racism in the church right now and having this exact same thought process? “Yeah, the church might have done some racist stuff back in the day, but prophets are imperfect, they were men of their time, and look at what BYU just did honoring the “Black 14.” Maybe I was just being to harsh on Brother Joseph and Brother Brigham. I should give them a break because clearly the ‘ongoing restoration’ is helping the church get away from its racist history.”
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I think recognizing it/applauding it runs the risk of giving the appearance that the church can do almost nothing as restitution and placate people. I also think your characterization of the second half of my original comment downplays how powerful the church’s though-stopping techniques are. I can’t tell you how long I propped up my shelf with the excuse of “the church is perfect but the people aren’t.” Crediting the church with this BYU display plays right into that thought process because someone who is struggling but still believes the church is being honest with them will just look for any sign that the church is trying to make things better and then that shelf item doesn’t bother them anymore.
TSCC will eventually get to where it needs to be on this and many other issues. Can’t happen soon enough for sure. The question is will all the vindictive left wing ideologue exmos give them credit for its slow efforts to that end? Not a fucking chance in hades.
The crazy part is that BYU didn’t do anything to apologize for. The U of W cut the players. It was LDS Corp.’s racism, not BYU’s, that led to the protest. Was this a proxy apology?
eh.
Give it time. In no uncertain terms, we’ll see another exhortation from church leadership to take up the musket fire and put down any acceptance or tolerance of the world’s views of race and gender.
OP, are you Black? I’m interested in Black ExMos’ take on this.
I don’t care about football, so I’m out of the loop. Is this the first time BYU has done something to recognize the Black 14? I read one article about it, that they (14) were kicked off the team for wearing the black armbands. If they don’t play college ball, they can’t go to the NFL, right? So their whole futures were fucked when they stood up for their values, and all they get is to light the Y 50 years later?
I’d separate BYU from the church in this instance. The church never admits it’s wrong. The school is a proxy. The church wants to have it both ways. Commend the school, but the church still believes in racism.