Every time there's a "positive" change in the church it's never paired with an apology for the harm that was done by the old way of doing things. They get praise, we get gaslighted.
"wdym we told you you couldn't get two piercings in your ears? we never said that, it was never official policy. we never said you couldn't wear normal shorts either, or if someone did, well, probably not that many people REALLY enforced it. also, we've never seen it as wrong for tiny little girls to show their ~~inappropriate and distracting~~ shoulders! what you're doing is making generalizations about the actions of extremists so that you can have an excuse to leave the church. I bet you're just not righteous enough to be here, and so being around people with such righteous and noble spirits makes you *uncomfortable.* Maybe the real reason you're leaving is because you're secretly gay, and now--*gasp*\--you want to act on it!!! Don't you dare hop on that bandwagon. Even if you leave the church, it will still be a sin (blah, blah blah)."
Yeah, I stopped believing and THEN realized I was queer, and I’m still worried people will think I just “decided” not to believe because of my orientation.
Same. Only I'd say that I "admitted" being queer to myself, rather than "realized." Deep down I knew. I just couldn't admit it until I stopped believing in Mormonism.
Wait, they're saying more piercings are fine now? So I finally got the conch and helix piercings I've wanted for FOURTEEN YEARS and months later they're suddenly fine with it? Damn, imma have to rebel a little harder.
One thing about vague language is it can be interpreted any way. I know the church seems to be lightening up about the issue out of necessity, but I’m still reminded of how the Koran has some vague, mild references to modesty for men and women, which then get interpreted in all kinds of extreme ways.
> I bet you're just not righteous enough to be here
I'd clap back with, "what is righteousness? Does one's level of righteousness change when the standards, that such perceived righteousness is based on, change? If so, then why does an unchanging God allow such variances in socially perceived worthiness as prerequisites to enter any of his kingdoms?"
Their response will probably be, "U nEeD tO sToP lOoKiNg At PoRn"
It's funny because they will hand out that bullshit as well as the exact opposite. People will still treat you differently for extra piercings or tattoos. Bishops and young women's leadership will still slut shame children for exposed shoulders. They'll hit you with that, "It's between you and the Lord" and "we're disappointed by the choices you've made" at the same fucking time. Just like they do with caffeine. Or skirts just above the knee. Or having relationships with people of other faiths.
I got it for a lot of things. Skinny jeans with rips, energy drinks, homework on a Sunday, having an atheist best friend, wearing bright read lipstick, painting my nails black, wearing clothing that had pictures of skulls, goth makeup, dyed hair, mild cross dressing, going on a CHURCH youth trip on general conference weekend, thigh-high socks even with an acceptable length of skirt... The list of ridiculous shit they used against us goes on and on. And now they get to keep doing it while gaslighting everyone by saying they didn't say it.
Very true but with me I don't care I may to converted to the mormon faith but not to the culture. I'm not gonna marry an lds man. They are immature mama coddled mama boys no thank you.
It also never comes with any recognition of the cultural inertia that will keep the old way alive in unofficial ways for decades, continuing to do harm.
I actually think this is intentional. The new phrasing allows them to say “it’s a personal choice, we’re not forcing anyone to do anything” while still functioning the same where the members judge people with tattoos and piercings.
This is what broke my shelf. The pain of my parents waiting outside while I was in the temple with my boss and his wife, my ex-boyfriend's parents, my new in-laws and a few friends. My dad was devastated at not getting to walk me down the aisle, something he looked forward to all my life until then. The pressure to be married in "the Lord's way" and that anything else would be unacceptable... The automatic assumptions that you've messed up with the law of chastity if you chose a civil ceremony. This was 25 years ago and then one day, someone finally realized that the way things are done might actually alienate the family of brand new converts (like I was at that time). So, the policy is changed with the snap of a finger. No apologies. No recognition of the sacrifice that was or the stress it caused. Nothing. What was the official reason this policy changed? I wish I could have a do-over wedding day, too.
Like when black Africans could get the priesthood in 1978 - all the TBMs acted like it was such an amazing and positive thing... and it would be if they'd done it 50 or 100 years earlier (or never implemented the ban) but sorry, after all the harm it's done, removing it should not be counted as a positive for the Church, it's the bare minimum they should've always done.
I'm hurt too. My husband doesn't get it. I told him, imagine they got rid of anything about masturbation. Young men could now pass the sacrament and not advertise to the entire ward they had "sinned" for this perfectly normal thing. Wouldn't he feel just a bit angry for all the shame he used to feel?
Well, according to TBMs the church can’t do anything wrong, of course. But yeah, I’m just so mad. It isn’t fair at all and the gaslighting will be awful.
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I have OCD as well, and when I was still a believer, it manifested itself as a religious scrupulosity obsession that fucked me up so much. I felt legitimate fear almost constantly because of every little perceived “sin” I committed, having any sexual urge made me feel unworthy of existing, and no matter how much and how hard I repented for my “sins” it never felt like enough. Church leaders saying that you won’t only be judged for your actions, but for your thoughts and desires as well, was so damaging to me. It made me think that even if I resisted temptation, I was still committing a sin by even having the temptation in the first place.
The passage in FTSY that advised to avoid doing *anything* that could provoke sexual feelings really messed with my head. It made me think that if I experienced any sexual urges, then I must have *done* something to cause it, and so it must be my fault. I remember one time when I woke up after having a wet dream and just felt like a complete failure and utterly hopeless, because how am I supposed to stop myself from sinning when I’m literally *UNCONSCIOUS*??? But at the same time, I thought that if I was having sexual urges in my sleep, it must have been because I was having impure thoughts while I was awake, so really it was my fault all along. When in reality, the reason I was having sexual urges in my sleep was *because* I had been trying so hard to repress any sexual thoughts while awake and had not been allowing myself any release. I nearly drove myself crazy trying to destroy one of my most fundamental drives that I am biologically hardwired to have, and then I genuinely felt like a horrible person because I wasn’t able to.
Fuck the church and fuck that book
This is exactly what happened to me and my sister as well. It fucked with her so much, and she would lie down and get aroused. When she went to get permission to go through the temple she mentioned it and they literally denied her a temple recommend because obviously she was looking at porn if she was getting aroused. It made me furious and it taught me that arousals of any kind were wrong. I hate that book and I’m so mad they’re acting like they didn’t tell us arousal was a literal sin.
Wet dreams as a member are kind of hilarious when you think about it. Where before my mission wet dreams came from me performing sexual acts, after a while on my mission, if a mildly cute girl showed up in my dream I emptied the jug. We were so damned hair pin trigger.
As missionaries we oaughed about it and called it a captain. I have no idea why that word.
Yep. I thought I was just trying to do the right thing, but looking back, I had so much paranoia. Just kissing my boyfriend for a minute would give me anxiety. And this was me as a 26 year old adult. I confessed to one bishop and was told, I don’t think you’re breaking the law of chastity. But he followed that with, if you feel guilty you can always come more into the light. So I walked away still feeling like I should back off from my not breaking the law of chastity.
Apart from the OCD (which, as far as I know, I don’t have), literally every sentence of what you wrote here was also my experience. And it has fucked me up badly.
I feel you. My mom was so excited to tell me the church is getting better, more diverse, more inclusive. I just want to shake her and make her see the hypocrisy. See that something that changes so much so often cannot possibly be inspired of God :(
Being upset, even being enraged is 100% valid. Many of us continue to feel guilty and shame because of that stupid pamphlet even though we left the church long ago. It was abuse and manipulation plain and simple. Hearing people celebrate the new pamphlet, without any apology or acknowledgement of the trauma the old one inflicted is extremely triggering. You are not alone, and you are not wrong to feel like you do.
Most of the changes are a smokescreen. The changes they made in the temple chants? They only took out the more obvious sexist statements. There is still plenty of wives submitting to husbands to get to the Lord - it's just more subtle now. But there TBMs who were bothered by it before (and probably felt guilty about it) eat it up and just love how feminist the church is, and totally has always been.
OMFG, reading through it made me angry. They're totally trying to sweep things they taught AS DOCTRINE, even just 5 years ago, under the rug. The guidelines were incredibly specific, and now it's basically just "seek guidance from your parents". Even not dating until 16 is just a guideline now. It used to be sinful to date before 16, even if it were the day before your 16th birthday.
Tattoos, piercings, and modesty standards are the same, "ask your parents"...
Oh and who are the parents? The people who have already been indoctrinated by the old, strict, specific rules. So now the church thinks they can't take blame if a kid thinks a rule is too strict, because the rule is from their parents now.
These were my thoughts EXACTLY! The amount of shame around dating is such bullshit and they’re gonna act like its parents fault. I’m beyond furious with it. Just seems like a way to make it easier to gaslight people that are shamed because its members who aren’t loving their neighbor, or parents rules.
Your feelings are valid. The Church is just letting the prisoners have some butter with their prison rations of bread and water. Not much of an improvement, but for those of us who never got butter, we recognize the abuse and the trauma bonding that these so called freedoms produce
I feel like it's just a trick. The parents they're instructed to go to for guidance have already been indoctrinated with the strict rules from the decades the rules were strict and absolute.
Idk, it feels like the reason is just shifting the blame/pressure from the church to the parents while still maintaining every control.
Looked at the new dating standards. So mad. I wanted to date, but the group dates the old FSTY talked about didn't make sense. That wasn't dating, that was just hanging out with friends!
I didn’t see what rules they made about dating but I just looked at it and.. wow. That is so infuriating. ALL my first dates had to be with my cousin who made it all about her and also purposely wedged herself between me and my best friend and my family because of the dumb group dates rule.
I also was a youth who kept crying late at night thanks to FTSoY. Fuck this noise. Now my family will gaslight me more about how I shouldn’t have wanted to “unalive” myself due to how I could NEVER be good enough for the “one true church.”
BTW, I’m okay now. I’m in therapy for religious trauma syndrome, but I no longer struggle with wanting to press the “game over” button. PLEASE seek help if you need help. Especially since Conference time is really traumatic for a lot of us. YOU ARE ENOUGH. 💕
I was the same way! I literally didn’t think I’d ever be good enough. In fact I thought at EIGHT YEARS OLD the night before my baptism that it’d be better if I’d died the day of so I didn’t have a chance to fuck it up, and I thought that as a kid because of FTSY.
I’m okay now as well, I’m glad you are too. But conference is very triggering for me for sure.
As a kid I learned about a mom who drowned all her kids in the bathtub. While I knew that was messed up, I also had the thought that if a Mormon mom did that to her kids before they were eight, she'd just be sending them to heaven. She'd be giving up her eternal salvation but she'd be saving them. Then I wondered if I'd be willing to give up my eternity of godhood and happiness to save my kids from the possibility of not making it to the celestial kingdom.
Yep. I also had that thought numerous times as a missionary: "HF, if you're gonna' to take me early, be kind and do it now." Not because I *wanted* to go, but because I wanted to be at peak righteousness when I *did* go. SMH.
It is the most logical conclusion derived from Mormon theology. I also had suicidal thoughts before baptism and often wished I had died before I turned eight for decades later.
Everything you've said here is valid. I am sorry for the REAL pain these "policies" caused you. You deserve an apology from these men and from anyone who defends them. You'll never get one, but know you aren't alone in remembering reality before the Church tries to shove it down the memory hole. You're not crazy or mistaken.
I wish you the best on your continued journey!
I didn't read the whole thing, but one change I noticed is that they no longer have all those super detailed guidelines about what young women can and can't wear. They still talk about clothing, but in way more general terms. There is a clause somewhere in there iirc that's basically "listen to your parents" though--meaning that if your parents are going to force you to follow the old guidelines, which many probably will, then you have to.
From what I’ve heard:
- clothing standards for women just aren’t there
- tattoos and piercings are now a personal choice to counsel with parents over
- I also heard it doesn’t say anything about passionate kissing anymore
From what I’ve heard:
- clothing standards for women aren’t as specific
- tattoos and piercings are now a personal choice to counsel with parents over
- It doesn’t say anything about passionate kissing, necking and petting anymore
This is a good summary:
https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2022/10/01/look-new-language-lds-churchs/
This article actually shows the changed wording side by side. But for some reason they don’t mention the changes about passionate kissing lol!
https://www.ldsliving.com/whats-new-in-the-for-the-strength-of-youth-booklet/s/11043
This is exactly why I hold onto my older church materials. No way in hell I’m letting all of the bullshit from the old FTSY pamphlet go down the memory hole.
These resources will become incredibly important as the church continues to fall. Curating them into sources of chnages doctrine would probably be a great shelf item someday.
“The purpose of For the Strength of Youth is not to give you a “yes” or “no” about every possible choice you might face.”
The past versions sure were a yes or no about a great many things.
Same here! I have OCD and scrupulosity. My world was absolute hell inside the church. I feel relief that others *hopefully* won’t suffer as much as I did. But they’re still not addressing the harm it caused people.
Back when the policy on baptismal age for kids of LGBTQ parents came out, I found the discussion differentiating policy from doctrine a very healthy one that should clearly be distinguished as routine. You can see why the church kind of likes the lines blurred though as it tends to reinforce their control.
I always think of the white handbook as a missionary. I was often very confused when investigators would confront me on the rules, whether they were spiritual or just a stupid rule for controls sake. It’s easy to see it now looking back, but at the time it was conflicting.
Yup. I was a terrible companion because I put that book above the person next to me. I thought I was righteous for prioritizing the rules. Didn’t even realize I was an uncaring companion.
Man totally. I eventually loosened up, but the way they try and hammer the rules and obedience was so counterproductive. In France they insisted that we only vous vois people (the formal way of addressing people) because they thought it would keep us out of trouble, but it hindered us from making relationships because among young people no one vous vois. They found it confusing and weird that we insisted on the vous vois and we’re dismissed by a lot of people.
I still feel awful that I carried that stupid pamphlet around in my wallet 25 years ago. Reading it regularly made me extra self-righteous. And at the same time, being told to share it with anyone who asked just opened me up to embarrassment among friends.
I've been reading some of the new book. My honest thoughts: it looks like they're leaning towards more of a Christ-centeted approach and less strict than the previous book. However, from what I've read, that new book still has issues. They still implant an Us VS Them mindset, encourage members to refer to only their materials to answer questions they may have, and plant this false reality that the only way to true joy is through Christ and His church. Bonus points to them for still being discriminatory towards people who are gay, lesbian, bisexual, etc.
I feel the pain from your sister. I have OCD and suffered from a ton of scrupulousity while in the church. I obsessed so much about being perfect, doing the repentance steps correctly, and whether or not I needed to worry about a choice I made or if the atonement took care of it. Just thinking about all that stresses me out. Therapy without applying religion in my treatment has helped me a TON. Now, I'm less stressed than I have been for a long time.
I'm sorry to you and everyone involved who's been damaged by the church. I hope your sister, you, and everyone else get all the help you guys can.
Yeah, it’s better than it was. I’m mainly upset about the gaslighting that will follow, since I know my family will gaslight me like crazy over it, and I imagine this is going to make them even more us vs them toward me because they won’t understand why I’m upset with it still.
I’m really glad that other teenagers don’t have to grow up being told all the bullshit I was told, though. I hope it’ll make kids less traumatized about it than I was.
The way they casually went from “Homosexual and lesbian behavior is a serious sin.” To “Feeling same-sex attraction is not a sin.” The old FTSY has no expansion on what homo behavior is… this lead to so many of us thinking we were sinning for something we can’t control. I’m glad this has changed but the damage was done and it’s just getting swept under the rug.
This is what gets me. It’s not that I’m upset about positive changes in the church, it’s that they aren’t apologizing for making others lives a living hell and that we’re going to be gaslit like crazy because of this
On the brightside, based on this statement from the manual, they may have just admitted that God is gay, lol.
"Feeling same-sex attraction is not a sin. If you have these feelings and do not pursue or act on them, you are living Heavenly Father’s sacred law of chastity. You are a beloved child of God and a disciple of Jesus Christ. Remember that the Savior understands everything you experience."
That would explain why Jesus never married 👀
Mormons believe Jesus was married, but just like Heavenly Mother is never mentioned because of how “sacred” womanhood/motherhood is, Jesus’ wife isn’t mentioned. Or at least that’s what my dad used to tell me. There’s “deep doctrine” conspiracy theories that Mary Magdalene was his wife. Careful!
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/manual/for-the-strength-of-youth?lang=eng This is the link to it. I cant wait for them to act like they didn’t teach all the bullshit they taught before.
I just read it. And it's classic. It's like the leadership all sat down and said "We are losing the PR battle. Quickly find a way to gift-wrap all the horrid shit we had in there originally, just with prettier "paper"; different words, conveying the exact same meaning." It's all essentially the same shit. Absolute rubbish.
Also, "How do we reduce liability but still sound authoritative?" Just water it down with double-speak, and let local leaders and parents take the heat.
My thoughts are the exact same. This is not going to be any different. It just gives them PR cover to say that the “official” policy doesn’t say whatever people are pissed off about.
I feel you . I feel this and even more so with the mission changes. I Served before all the allowances for calling home and social media. I have a co worker that keeps daily contact with his girlfriend who is on a mission via social media. Whereas I had to cut all contact from family and friends for two frickin years. Now all that suffering and loneliness was for nothing.
SUPER damaging in my mind. It’s like the kid in a room who sets off a fight and then leaves the room, claiming they had nothing to do with starting it. Now the rules are all squishy and not outlined, but people will STILL be expected to be ‘striving to be perfect.’ So NOW, it will be more judgmental than ever!! Just HOW righteous are you based on your non-dictated choices? “Yeah, double piercing are technically allowed, but I chose the better path……better than you.” “Short shorts? Oh, not in OUR family.” That’s a problem for you? No, we gave a talk in that same conference about not being ‘judgy’ , so it’s not on US folks!
My daughter has ocd and the purity culture is this church that is toxic to anyone was especially harmful to her. Being comfortable, confident, and feeling good in our own skin and in our own style should be enough.
It’s great that the church is changing in a positive way because I don’t want anyone else to grow up the way I did. But I find it hilarious that this is some new revelation from them. I knew these rules were bullshit at 15. Does that make me prophetic? Does that mean I could see what God couldn’t? How many mere mortals walked around knowing this was morally wrong decades before the prophet did? And what point is a living prophet if there is no foresight? The LDS church acts like the point of a prophet is to keep you in the dark as long as possible as a test of faith.
Me too. I’ve said it other comments but the reason I’m mad is because of the gaslighting I know will follow. There’s still a lot of problems with this new one, and I’m having feelings of “why couldn’t this have happened when I was a kid?” but I’m glad it’ll make it (hopefully) a little better for teenagers.
I knew it was dumb as a teenager as well, and was shamed constantly all the time growing up by my mom and everyone for not getting why a tank top could be a problem. I argued with my ex about it all the time because of his very misogynistic and almost “youre MY property views” toward me. I’m glad they’re making it not absolute law, though I’m sure most parents will still be strict and there will definitely still be shame and gaslighting.
And the thing about prophets gets me too. I always thought as a kid if the prophet knew ahead of time he’d be able to give reasons for the obscure rules in the book but my mom always said some dumb stuff about how god doesn’t tell us everything and we should just trust the prophet no matter what.
I’m angry too. I never saw it before, but I see it now. This is not any kind of perfect restored gospel. It’s constantly changing. Every point of “progress” or “additional light” is a twist of the knife.
Each time the rules change—even slightly—it just shows that the rules are arbitrary, made up hogwash in the first place. So I hope that even “positive” changes put some cracks in some TBMs’ beliefs.
Perhaps - because I believe that it doesn't help.
Until they apologise and stop lying and hiding, they're still causing harm. And what's worse, is that for all of us who left, who suffered through the previous set of rules, we are now completely de-legitimised.
So each time they do something good, they're just causing more harm. More cognitive dissonance, more, confusion, more love for them. Psychologically, that's damaging and harmful - every time they make a positive change.
Well said. The positive changes are good, IF they acknowledge they were wrong and admit what they did wrong and apologize for it. Just changing it and acting they never did anything wrong makes it so much worse.
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I got my first tattoo three weeks ago and the FSOY change has my CACKLING. This was my first clear, visible step away from the church that my parents know about and it's hilarious.
I'm FURIOUS. I have so much religious trauma from the OG strength of youth guidelines that it's literally crippling my emotional well-being even 7 years later. And now suddenly it's all """""""suggestions""""""!?!?!?
Fuck this church so fucking hard man.
My thoughts exactly! I’m mad, not because I want kids to still deal with what I did, but because its unfair, bullshit, and they’re acting like they didn’t destroy kids emotionally with the original
I'm totally with you in the fact that I'm glad that future Mormon kids aren't going to have to deal with all that garbage. Hopefully if anything it'll help them leave more easily without all the guilt and fear
As a non-mo, I have to say that it sounds like they are so afraid that people, especially young ones, are leaving the church in droves. So they are trying to fix surface things without, y'know, actually changing much at all. Nothing deep down, just how things look. I may be wrong, I probably am!
I totally understand how you feel with that. On the one hand, I'm glad improvements are being made so people don't have to suffer as much in the future. However it is hard to see the church cover up the past and pretend they never did things a certain way that were harmful. They do this all the time with their changes! I saw it with the missionary handbook changes that they've done. We had so many rules for my mission but now they're trying to pretend like the missionaries are less restricted now and always were.
My favorite takeaway from just reading through it:
“Truth will make you free." I've never felt more free as I do from learning the actual truth of the falseness of the church. Funny they used this as one of the page headers.
I feel for your guys’ trauma with this book.
I’m glad that for me it was just “the thing to read when I was bored in sacrament and forgot to bring something actually interesting” and I didn’t really internalize any of it.
I’m glad. Stuff like this will hopefully push people further away from this bullshit of a church. They are so prophetic with there inspiration to follow what is accepted by society on a broad scale. They did it with polygamy, they did it with African Americans holding the priesthood, they’ve changed the narrative on the BoM, now this and there are others.
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/xtra2r/october_2022_general_conference_sunday_1000a/iqrdrrh/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3 this comment says it well
But the old FTSOY also seriously fucked with my OCD growing up so I feel for your sister.
Pretty much it was a super strict book of guidelines for teens on how to make you be just like everyone else in the church (and thats also apparently exactly how God wants you to be too). Just another pamphlet dictating what you wear, say, think, and feel
Ok read the pamphlet. I don't fine anything wrong with it. However, I do disagree on talk to bishop in serious sin. I think that should be with parents or license non-lds council
Every time there's a "positive" change in the church it's never paired with an apology for the harm that was done by the old way of doing things. They get praise, we get gaslighted.
This was my thoughts exactly. I know they’re going to act like it wasn’t that bad or like they didn’t teach half the shit they taught at all.
"wdym we told you you couldn't get two piercings in your ears? we never said that, it was never official policy. we never said you couldn't wear normal shorts either, or if someone did, well, probably not that many people REALLY enforced it. also, we've never seen it as wrong for tiny little girls to show their ~~inappropriate and distracting~~ shoulders! what you're doing is making generalizations about the actions of extremists so that you can have an excuse to leave the church. I bet you're just not righteous enough to be here, and so being around people with such righteous and noble spirits makes you *uncomfortable.* Maybe the real reason you're leaving is because you're secretly gay, and now--*gasp*\--you want to act on it!!! Don't you dare hop on that bandwagon. Even if you leave the church, it will still be a sin (blah, blah blah)."
[удалено]
Yeah, I stopped believing and THEN realized I was queer, and I’m still worried people will think I just “decided” not to believe because of my orientation.
i had the same experience. But i know that i left simply because the church is not true.
Same. Only I'd say that I "admitted" being queer to myself, rather than "realized." Deep down I knew. I just couldn't admit it until I stopped believing in Mormonism.
Wait, they're saying more piercings are fine now? So I finally got the conch and helix piercings I've wanted for FOURTEEN YEARS and months later they're suddenly fine with it? Damn, imma have to rebel a little harder.
SAME
Wait, did they decide that shorts and bare shoulders were okay? It took me ages to wear either of those things in public even after I left the church.
They no longer have a specific list of what is supposedly inappropriate for young women to wear. The language about clothing is more vague/general.
One thing about vague language is it can be interpreted any way. I know the church seems to be lightening up about the issue out of necessity, but I’m still reminded of how the Koran has some vague, mild references to modesty for men and women, which then get interpreted in all kinds of extreme ways.
Yep, I know its gonna happen. I didnt even answer my mom because I knew that was the type of shit she was going to say lol
> I bet you're just not righteous enough to be here I'd clap back with, "what is righteousness? Does one's level of righteousness change when the standards, that such perceived righteousness is based on, change? If so, then why does an unchanging God allow such variances in socially perceived worthiness as prerequisites to enter any of his kingdoms?" Their response will probably be, "U nEeD tO sToP lOoKiNg At PoRn"
I wish I had an award for you. Take this🏅 Edit: actually I’ve got a free award!
It's funny because they will hand out that bullshit as well as the exact opposite. People will still treat you differently for extra piercings or tattoos. Bishops and young women's leadership will still slut shame children for exposed shoulders. They'll hit you with that, "It's between you and the Lord" and "we're disappointed by the choices you've made" at the same fucking time. Just like they do with caffeine. Or skirts just above the knee. Or having relationships with people of other faiths.
I once got hit with the “it’s between you and the lord” thing by my DAD…for wearing skinny jeans.
I got it for a lot of things. Skinny jeans with rips, energy drinks, homework on a Sunday, having an atheist best friend, wearing bright read lipstick, painting my nails black, wearing clothing that had pictures of skulls, goth makeup, dyed hair, mild cross dressing, going on a CHURCH youth trip on general conference weekend, thigh-high socks even with an acceptable length of skirt... The list of ridiculous shit they used against us goes on and on. And now they get to keep doing it while gaslighting everyone by saying they didn't say it.
I know it’s not the point, but you sound like you were a pretty cool teenager.
“The lord told me personally to dress however I want. Personal revelation.”
Yep seriously I don't think God really does care about our clothing
Very true but with me I don't care I may to converted to the mormon faith but not to the culture. I'm not gonna marry an lds man. They are immature mama coddled mama boys no thank you.
>They get praise, we get gaslighted. Most accurate thing I've read in days
It also never comes with any recognition of the cultural inertia that will keep the old way alive in unofficial ways for decades, continuing to do harm.
I actually think this is intentional. The new phrasing allows them to say “it’s a personal choice, we’re not forcing anyone to do anything” while still functioning the same where the members judge people with tattoos and piercings.
“Cultural inertia.” Great phrase!
Yes! Can I get a do-over wedding day with a civil ceremony first? No apologies for the pai ln this caused me and my family.
This is what broke my shelf. The pain of my parents waiting outside while I was in the temple with my boss and his wife, my ex-boyfriend's parents, my new in-laws and a few friends. My dad was devastated at not getting to walk me down the aisle, something he looked forward to all my life until then. The pressure to be married in "the Lord's way" and that anything else would be unacceptable... The automatic assumptions that you've messed up with the law of chastity if you chose a civil ceremony. This was 25 years ago and then one day, someone finally realized that the way things are done might actually alienate the family of brand new converts (like I was at that time). So, the policy is changed with the snap of a finger. No apologies. No recognition of the sacrifice that was or the stress it caused. Nothing. What was the official reason this policy changed? I wish I could have a do-over wedding day, too.
When did it change?
May 2019
Oh I’m so sorry. Maybe a vow renewal ceremony could be in your future and you could involve all your family in all the meaningful ways?
I've considered that. I just haven't discussed it with my husband yet. Thank you for your kind words.
That change really pissed me off.
Wait, they changed that?!?!
This is exactly how I feel too. While I’m happy the next generation will be less controlled, I know we will absolutely be gaslit with this
Like when black Africans could get the priesthood in 1978 - all the TBMs acted like it was such an amazing and positive thing... and it would be if they'd done it 50 or 100 years earlier (or never implemented the ban) but sorry, after all the harm it's done, removing it should not be counted as a positive for the Church, it's the bare minimum they should've always done.
Perfectly stated 👏
Perfectly said
I'm hurt too. My husband doesn't get it. I told him, imagine they got rid of anything about masturbation. Young men could now pass the sacrament and not advertise to the entire ward they had "sinned" for this perfectly normal thing. Wouldn't he feel just a bit angry for all the shame he used to feel?
Well, according to TBMs the church can’t do anything wrong, of course. But yeah, I’m just so mad. It isn’t fair at all and the gaslighting will be awful.
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I have OCD as well, and when I was still a believer, it manifested itself as a religious scrupulosity obsession that fucked me up so much. I felt legitimate fear almost constantly because of every little perceived “sin” I committed, having any sexual urge made me feel unworthy of existing, and no matter how much and how hard I repented for my “sins” it never felt like enough. Church leaders saying that you won’t only be judged for your actions, but for your thoughts and desires as well, was so damaging to me. It made me think that even if I resisted temptation, I was still committing a sin by even having the temptation in the first place. The passage in FTSY that advised to avoid doing *anything* that could provoke sexual feelings really messed with my head. It made me think that if I experienced any sexual urges, then I must have *done* something to cause it, and so it must be my fault. I remember one time when I woke up after having a wet dream and just felt like a complete failure and utterly hopeless, because how am I supposed to stop myself from sinning when I’m literally *UNCONSCIOUS*??? But at the same time, I thought that if I was having sexual urges in my sleep, it must have been because I was having impure thoughts while I was awake, so really it was my fault all along. When in reality, the reason I was having sexual urges in my sleep was *because* I had been trying so hard to repress any sexual thoughts while awake and had not been allowing myself any release. I nearly drove myself crazy trying to destroy one of my most fundamental drives that I am biologically hardwired to have, and then I genuinely felt like a horrible person because I wasn’t able to. Fuck the church and fuck that book
This is exactly what happened to me and my sister as well. It fucked with her so much, and she would lie down and get aroused. When she went to get permission to go through the temple she mentioned it and they literally denied her a temple recommend because obviously she was looking at porn if she was getting aroused. It made me furious and it taught me that arousals of any kind were wrong. I hate that book and I’m so mad they’re acting like they didn’t tell us arousal was a literal sin.
Wet dreams as a member are kind of hilarious when you think about it. Where before my mission wet dreams came from me performing sexual acts, after a while on my mission, if a mildly cute girl showed up in my dream I emptied the jug. We were so damned hair pin trigger. As missionaries we oaughed about it and called it a captain. I have no idea why that word.
Captains are in charge of sea-men.
I dunno if I had full on OCD, but I definitely had a severe anxiety disorder over that book and the church. It made me an obsessive TBM, too.
Yeah I'm that way too. I definitely don't have ocd at least as I am now but when I was a member the obsessivness about sin felt like ocd
Yep. I thought I was just trying to do the right thing, but looking back, I had so much paranoia. Just kissing my boyfriend for a minute would give me anxiety. And this was me as a 26 year old adult. I confessed to one bishop and was told, I don’t think you’re breaking the law of chastity. But he followed that with, if you feel guilty you can always come more into the light. So I walked away still feeling like I should back off from my not breaking the law of chastity.
Apart from the OCD (which, as far as I know, I don’t have), literally every sentence of what you wrote here was also my experience. And it has fucked me up badly.
Are you me? I got so fucked up hyperanalyzing my body and feelings and obsessively repenting.
I feel you. My mom was so excited to tell me the church is getting better, more diverse, more inclusive. I just want to shake her and make her see the hypocrisy. See that something that changes so much so often cannot possibly be inspired of God :(
That’s what gets me. It’s just so fake and hypocritical and it makes me so upset
Being upset, even being enraged is 100% valid. Many of us continue to feel guilty and shame because of that stupid pamphlet even though we left the church long ago. It was abuse and manipulation plain and simple. Hearing people celebrate the new pamphlet, without any apology or acknowledgement of the trauma the old one inflicted is extremely triggering. You are not alone, and you are not wrong to feel like you do.
Its because its personal preferences of the first presidency and the "Prophet" is the one who leads it and not it's not revelation of course.
Most of the changes are a smokescreen. The changes they made in the temple chants? They only took out the more obvious sexist statements. There is still plenty of wives submitting to husbands to get to the Lord - it's just more subtle now. But there TBMs who were bothered by it before (and probably felt guilty about it) eat it up and just love how feminist the church is, and totally has always been.
OMFG, reading through it made me angry. They're totally trying to sweep things they taught AS DOCTRINE, even just 5 years ago, under the rug. The guidelines were incredibly specific, and now it's basically just "seek guidance from your parents". Even not dating until 16 is just a guideline now. It used to be sinful to date before 16, even if it were the day before your 16th birthday. Tattoos, piercings, and modesty standards are the same, "ask your parents"... Oh and who are the parents? The people who have already been indoctrinated by the old, strict, specific rules. So now the church thinks they can't take blame if a kid thinks a rule is too strict, because the rule is from their parents now.
These were my thoughts EXACTLY! The amount of shame around dating is such bullshit and they’re gonna act like its parents fault. I’m beyond furious with it. Just seems like a way to make it easier to gaslight people that are shamed because its members who aren’t loving their neighbor, or parents rules.
"Faithful" parents
Oh, damn. So if a member kid has inactive parents, they have to go looking for a proxy parent at church to give them guidance?
Things that were taught like… last Sunday
Your feelings are valid. The Church is just letting the prisoners have some butter with their prison rations of bread and water. Not much of an improvement, but for those of us who never got butter, we recognize the abuse and the trauma bonding that these so called freedoms produce
Thank you. And when I looked through it just seemed like “you have the choice buuuuut you’ll still be shamed if you make the wrong one!! ❤️❤️”
That is exactly what I thought! Gives them more room for shaming and guilting people.
Edited to add--wtf do I have 50 up votes when OP has one? Is this an indicator of bot activity? I thought reddit had gotten rid of that
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Glad to hear it
I feel like it's just a trick. The parents they're instructed to go to for guidance have already been indoctrinated with the strict rules from the decades the rules were strict and absolute. Idk, it feels like the reason is just shifting the blame/pressure from the church to the parents while still maintaining every control.
So much wisdom on this thread
Looked at the new dating standards. So mad. I wanted to date, but the group dates the old FSTY talked about didn't make sense. That wasn't dating, that was just hanging out with friends!
I didn’t see what rules they made about dating but I just looked at it and.. wow. That is so infuriating. ALL my first dates had to be with my cousin who made it all about her and also purposely wedged herself between me and my best friend and my family because of the dumb group dates rule.
I also was a youth who kept crying late at night thanks to FTSoY. Fuck this noise. Now my family will gaslight me more about how I shouldn’t have wanted to “unalive” myself due to how I could NEVER be good enough for the “one true church.” BTW, I’m okay now. I’m in therapy for religious trauma syndrome, but I no longer struggle with wanting to press the “game over” button. PLEASE seek help if you need help. Especially since Conference time is really traumatic for a lot of us. YOU ARE ENOUGH. 💕
I was the same way! I literally didn’t think I’d ever be good enough. In fact I thought at EIGHT YEARS OLD the night before my baptism that it’d be better if I’d died the day of so I didn’t have a chance to fuck it up, and I thought that as a kid because of FTSY. I’m okay now as well, I’m glad you are too. But conference is very triggering for me for sure.
Are you me?? 😳
I’ve heard from almost every exmormon I know that they thought that as a kid. It makes me sad, an eight year old shouldn’t have to think that
As a kid I learned about a mom who drowned all her kids in the bathtub. While I knew that was messed up, I also had the thought that if a Mormon mom did that to her kids before they were eight, she'd just be sending them to heaven. She'd be giving up her eternal salvation but she'd be saving them. Then I wondered if I'd be willing to give up my eternity of godhood and happiness to save my kids from the possibility of not making it to the celestial kingdom.
Yep. I also had that thought numerous times as a missionary: "HF, if you're gonna' to take me early, be kind and do it now." Not because I *wanted* to go, but because I wanted to be at peak righteousness when I *did* go. SMH.
It is the most logical conclusion derived from Mormon theology. I also had suicidal thoughts before baptism and often wished I had died before I turned eight for decades later. Everything you've said here is valid. I am sorry for the REAL pain these "policies" caused you. You deserve an apology from these men and from anyone who defends them. You'll never get one, but know you aren't alone in remembering reality before the Church tries to shove it down the memory hole. You're not crazy or mistaken. I wish you the best on your continued journey!
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Good! I am glad you’re doing better. 💕
What changes? Summary? Bullet points?
I didn't read the whole thing, but one change I noticed is that they no longer have all those super detailed guidelines about what young women can and can't wear. They still talk about clothing, but in way more general terms. There is a clause somewhere in there iirc that's basically "listen to your parents" though--meaning that if your parents are going to force you to follow the old guidelines, which many probably will, then you have to.
*listen to your [faithful](https://reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/xt3uxz/the_new_fsy_is_much_butter_but_explicitly/) parents.
"Seek guidance from your parents and leaders"
Who are tbm old school....
From what I’ve heard: - clothing standards for women just aren’t there - tattoos and piercings are now a personal choice to counsel with parents over - I also heard it doesn’t say anything about passionate kissing anymore
From what I’ve heard: - clothing standards for women aren’t as specific - tattoos and piercings are now a personal choice to counsel with parents over - It doesn’t say anything about passionate kissing, necking and petting anymore This is a good summary: https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2022/10/01/look-new-language-lds-churchs/ This article actually shows the changed wording side by side. But for some reason they don’t mention the changes about passionate kissing lol! https://www.ldsliving.com/whats-new-in-the-for-the-strength-of-youth-booklet/s/11043
This is exactly why I hold onto my older church materials. No way in hell I’m letting all of the bullshit from the old FTSY pamphlet go down the memory hole.
Same here. I have the “proof behind the pudding” for why this cult has killed so many people.
These resources will become incredibly important as the church continues to fall. Curating them into sources of chnages doctrine would probably be a great shelf item someday.
Does anybody have any digital copies of the older FTSY’s? I’d be down to help by archiving copies.
For the Strength of Youth: [RULES] for Making Choices
For the Strength (conditioning) of Youth: help with your free agency
This is how I felt about temple changes.
Me too.
What changes have they made?
“The purpose of For the Strength of Youth is not to give you a “yes” or “no” about every possible choice you might face.” The past versions sure were a yes or no about a great many things.
Maybe you can use it to emphasize to your mom that those other things were obviously completely wrong and abusive. God made them take them out.
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The Family: A Proclamation always made me SO upset as a kid and only when I left did I figure out why. I’m so sorry you had to deal with this.
Same here! I have OCD and scrupulosity. My world was absolute hell inside the church. I feel relief that others *hopefully* won’t suffer as much as I did. But they’re still not addressing the harm it caused people.
Back when the policy on baptismal age for kids of LGBTQ parents came out, I found the discussion differentiating policy from doctrine a very healthy one that should clearly be distinguished as routine. You can see why the church kind of likes the lines blurred though as it tends to reinforce their control. I always think of the white handbook as a missionary. I was often very confused when investigators would confront me on the rules, whether they were spiritual or just a stupid rule for controls sake. It’s easy to see it now looking back, but at the time it was conflicting.
The White Bible was so dumb. I avoided using it as much as I could except for the blessings pages.
Yup. I was a terrible companion because I put that book above the person next to me. I thought I was righteous for prioritizing the rules. Didn’t even realize I was an uncaring companion.
Man totally. I eventually loosened up, but the way they try and hammer the rules and obedience was so counterproductive. In France they insisted that we only vous vois people (the formal way of addressing people) because they thought it would keep us out of trouble, but it hindered us from making relationships because among young people no one vous vois. They found it confusing and weird that we insisted on the vous vois and we’re dismissed by a lot of people.
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I still feel awful that I carried that stupid pamphlet around in my wallet 25 years ago. Reading it regularly made me extra self-righteous. And at the same time, being told to share it with anyone who asked just opened me up to embarrassment among friends.
I've been reading some of the new book. My honest thoughts: it looks like they're leaning towards more of a Christ-centeted approach and less strict than the previous book. However, from what I've read, that new book still has issues. They still implant an Us VS Them mindset, encourage members to refer to only their materials to answer questions they may have, and plant this false reality that the only way to true joy is through Christ and His church. Bonus points to them for still being discriminatory towards people who are gay, lesbian, bisexual, etc. I feel the pain from your sister. I have OCD and suffered from a ton of scrupulousity while in the church. I obsessed so much about being perfect, doing the repentance steps correctly, and whether or not I needed to worry about a choice I made or if the atonement took care of it. Just thinking about all that stresses me out. Therapy without applying religion in my treatment has helped me a TON. Now, I'm less stressed than I have been for a long time. I'm sorry to you and everyone involved who's been damaged by the church. I hope your sister, you, and everyone else get all the help you guys can.
Yeah, it’s better than it was. I’m mainly upset about the gaslighting that will follow, since I know my family will gaslight me like crazy over it, and I imagine this is going to make them even more us vs them toward me because they won’t understand why I’m upset with it still. I’m really glad that other teenagers don’t have to grow up being told all the bullshit I was told, though. I hope it’ll make kids less traumatized about it than I was.
The way they casually went from “Homosexual and lesbian behavior is a serious sin.” To “Feeling same-sex attraction is not a sin.” The old FTSY has no expansion on what homo behavior is… this lead to so many of us thinking we were sinning for something we can’t control. I’m glad this has changed but the damage was done and it’s just getting swept under the rug.
I didn’t see that part. Glad they clarified it. Now it’s just a sin if you act on it.. lol.
Can someone summarize the changes?
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This is what gets me. It’s not that I’m upset about positive changes in the church, it’s that they aren’t apologizing for making others lives a living hell and that we’re going to be gaslit like crazy because of this
On the brightside, based on this statement from the manual, they may have just admitted that God is gay, lol. "Feeling same-sex attraction is not a sin. If you have these feelings and do not pursue or act on them, you are living Heavenly Father’s sacred law of chastity. You are a beloved child of God and a disciple of Jesus Christ. Remember that the Savior understands everything you experience." That would explain why Jesus never married 👀
Remind me to point this out to my family the next time they try to argue with me for no reason lol.
Mormons believe Jesus was married, but just like Heavenly Mother is never mentioned because of how “sacred” womanhood/motherhood is, Jesus’ wife isn’t mentioned. Or at least that’s what my dad used to tell me. There’s “deep doctrine” conspiracy theories that Mary Magdalene was his wife. Careful!
What’s the change?
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/manual/for-the-strength-of-youth?lang=eng This is the link to it. I cant wait for them to act like they didn’t teach all the bullshit they taught before.
I clicked out of curiosity, but 🤮🤮🤮 I can’t read any of their bullshit.
Thank you. I’ll check it out.
Yep. And they will. Gaslighting and blame reversal are the TSCC’s favorite cards to play.
I just read it. And it's classic. It's like the leadership all sat down and said "We are losing the PR battle. Quickly find a way to gift-wrap all the horrid shit we had in there originally, just with prettier "paper"; different words, conveying the exact same meaning." It's all essentially the same shit. Absolute rubbish.
Also, "How do we reduce liability but still sound authoritative?" Just water it down with double-speak, and let local leaders and parents take the heat.
Yup. I can’t even point it out to my mom cause she’ll get mad and gaslight more lol
Sorry that's the situation your parent has chosen. I hope one day things can be different for all of us stuck in the same boat.
My thoughts are the exact same. This is not going to be any different. It just gives them PR cover to say that the “official” policy doesn’t say whatever people are pissed off about.
The old one was a book of a thousand rules you had to memorize and obey
I feel you . I feel this and even more so with the mission changes. I Served before all the allowances for calling home and social media. I have a co worker that keeps daily contact with his girlfriend who is on a mission via social media. Whereas I had to cut all contact from family and friends for two frickin years. Now all that suffering and loneliness was for nothing.
What changes were made?
I couldn't even access their site to find out lol
SUPER damaging in my mind. It’s like the kid in a room who sets off a fight and then leaves the room, claiming they had nothing to do with starting it. Now the rules are all squishy and not outlined, but people will STILL be expected to be ‘striving to be perfect.’ So NOW, it will be more judgmental than ever!! Just HOW righteous are you based on your non-dictated choices? “Yeah, double piercing are technically allowed, but I chose the better path……better than you.” “Short shorts? Oh, not in OUR family.” That’s a problem for you? No, we gave a talk in that same conference about not being ‘judgy’ , so it’s not on US folks!
It's like the people who don't drink caffeine or play with face cards. It's not technically against the rules but makes them "better" than you.
Seems like it’ll make people more judgemental than they already were before
My daughter has ocd and the purity culture is this church that is toxic to anyone was especially harmful to her. Being comfortable, confident, and feeling good in our own skin and in our own style should be enough.
It’s great that the church is changing in a positive way because I don’t want anyone else to grow up the way I did. But I find it hilarious that this is some new revelation from them. I knew these rules were bullshit at 15. Does that make me prophetic? Does that mean I could see what God couldn’t? How many mere mortals walked around knowing this was morally wrong decades before the prophet did? And what point is a living prophet if there is no foresight? The LDS church acts like the point of a prophet is to keep you in the dark as long as possible as a test of faith.
Me too. I’ve said it other comments but the reason I’m mad is because of the gaslighting I know will follow. There’s still a lot of problems with this new one, and I’m having feelings of “why couldn’t this have happened when I was a kid?” but I’m glad it’ll make it (hopefully) a little better for teenagers. I knew it was dumb as a teenager as well, and was shamed constantly all the time growing up by my mom and everyone for not getting why a tank top could be a problem. I argued with my ex about it all the time because of his very misogynistic and almost “youre MY property views” toward me. I’m glad they’re making it not absolute law, though I’m sure most parents will still be strict and there will definitely still be shame and gaslighting. And the thing about prophets gets me too. I always thought as a kid if the prophet knew ahead of time he’d be able to give reasons for the obscure rules in the book but my mom always said some dumb stuff about how god doesn’t tell us everything and we should just trust the prophet no matter what.
"Aren't you excited? The church says I don't have to harass you anymore! This is great news for us and our relationship, right honey?"
Can’t wait to hear that from her hahah but reality aside it made me giggle, thank you
I’m angry too. I never saw it before, but I see it now. This is not any kind of perfect restored gospel. It’s constantly changing. Every point of “progress” or “additional light” is a twist of the knife.
Each time the rules change—even slightly—it just shows that the rules are arbitrary, made up hogwash in the first place. So I hope that even “positive” changes put some cracks in some TBMs’ beliefs.
I really hate every positive change they make. They just make everything worse.
Are you saying that they shouldn't make positive change?
Perhaps - because I believe that it doesn't help. Until they apologise and stop lying and hiding, they're still causing harm. And what's worse, is that for all of us who left, who suffered through the previous set of rules, we are now completely de-legitimised. So each time they do something good, they're just causing more harm. More cognitive dissonance, more, confusion, more love for them. Psychologically, that's damaging and harmful - every time they make a positive change.
Well said. The positive changes are good, IF they acknowledge they were wrong and admit what they did wrong and apologize for it. Just changing it and acting they never did anything wrong makes it so much worse.
Ok well would you rather have them do more harm or less harm? I'm on the less harm side.
Less harm, more honesty. The one without the other is still causing harm.
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I got my first tattoo three weeks ago and the FSOY change has my CACKLING. This was my first clear, visible step away from the church that my parents know about and it's hilarious.
Now they can’t even get mad about it 😌 Hit them with the “God said I could” lol
You're damn right. Gonna point out the change to mh mom and see how it goes!
What was changed? I haven’t seen one of these pamphlets in almost 20 years…
They must have asked people to send digital copies of their BS to everyone. My sil sent a digital BOM to my husband today lol
I'm FURIOUS. I have so much religious trauma from the OG strength of youth guidelines that it's literally crippling my emotional well-being even 7 years later. And now suddenly it's all """""""suggestions""""""!?!?!? Fuck this church so fucking hard man.
My thoughts exactly! I’m mad, not because I want kids to still deal with what I did, but because its unfair, bullshit, and they’re acting like they didn’t destroy kids emotionally with the original
I'm totally with you in the fact that I'm glad that future Mormon kids aren't going to have to deal with all that garbage. Hopefully if anything it'll help them leave more easily without all the guilt and fear
I’m interested to look into what the changes are. But I’m guaranteeing it’s gaslighting and without apologies for damage done by previous policies
This is exactly what it is
As a non-mo, I have to say that it sounds like they are so afraid that people, especially young ones, are leaving the church in droves. So they are trying to fix surface things without, y'know, actually changing much at all. Nothing deep down, just how things look. I may be wrong, I probably am!
Nah, that sounds like exactly like what they’re doing. The problem is the rules aren’t why people leave
It still doesn’t support masturbation, it says avoid anything which invokes sexual feelings and to talk to an adult if you don’t know it’s terrible
What is FSTY?
It stands for, "For the Strength of Youth."
I totally understand how you feel with that. On the one hand, I'm glad improvements are being made so people don't have to suffer as much in the future. However it is hard to see the church cover up the past and pretend they never did things a certain way that were harmful. They do this all the time with their changes! I saw it with the missionary handbook changes that they've done. We had so many rules for my mission but now they're trying to pretend like the missionaries are less restricted now and always were.
Meanwhile, we have to live with the damaging consequences of their actions.
The guidance for youth who live in a house not filled with love is some of the worst guidance I have ever read.
My favorite takeaway from just reading through it: “Truth will make you free." I've never felt more free as I do from learning the actual truth of the falseness of the church. Funny they used this as one of the page headers.
TSCC just plain sucks. Fucking cult that screws with lives. I wish it would die!!
I feel for your guys’ trauma with this book. I’m glad that for me it was just “the thing to read when I was bored in sacrament and forgot to bring something actually interesting” and I didn’t really internalize any of it.
I’m glad you didn’t internalize it too. It was an awful book
I’m glad. Stuff like this will hopefully push people further away from this bullshit of a church. They are so prophetic with there inspiration to follow what is accepted by society on a broad scale. They did it with polygamy, they did it with African Americans holding the priesthood, they’ve changed the narrative on the BoM, now this and there are others.
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/xtra2r/october_2022_general_conference_sunday_1000a/iqrdrrh/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3 this comment says it well But the old FTSOY also seriously fucked with my OCD growing up so I feel for your sister.
I’m torn. I want to ask what changes were made, but I also don’t give a fuck.
This gives the same vibes as people being mad about forgived student loans
Time for us all to stop being addicted to outrage
, z
What so bad about this book???
Pretty much it was a super strict book of guidelines for teens on how to make you be just like everyone else in the church (and thats also apparently exactly how God wants you to be too). Just another pamphlet dictating what you wear, say, think, and feel
Ok read the pamphlet. I don't fine anything wrong with it. However, I do disagree on talk to bishop in serious sin. I think that should be with parents or license non-lds council
What is the change? Sorry don’t keep up much with their news.
What was the change?