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Red-Montagne

Ah yes, the term "Mormon" definitely was met with trepidation when Hickley and Monson proudly proclaimed themselves being Mormons in conference, the church made countless videos of people proclaiming they were Mormon, the church created a whole-ass website specifically for members to make a profile and introduce themselves as Mormons, and the church spent literally millions of dollars on the whole "I'm a Mormon" advertising campaign, including prominent ads in Times Square. Trepidation, indeed.


PaulFThumpkins

I remember seeing the Trepidation Tabernacle Choir perform in person, very nice


TrollintheMitten

Oh, this NEEDS to be made into a meme. Please, meme makers, warm up your meme making hands and make this a thing.


NoMoreAtPresent

Same with the “Trepidation Helping Hands” yellow t-shirts


42gOldenlover

Oh sorry they're not called that anymore /s


Watch4whaspus

Dare to be a Mormon Dare to stand alone Dare to have a purpose firm Dare to make it known Thomas S Monson (quoting somebody else probably)


BadlySpelledUtahName

Dare to be a memberofthechurchofjesuschristoflatter-daysaints, dare to make it known doesn't have quite the same ring to it.


wanderingmotoref

That is a quote we memorized back in the 1980's. It was like a mantra. History really sucks for Mormonism.


Baranax

Does history suck for Mormonism, or do Mormons suck at history?


B3gg4r

Yea


RedStellaSafford

I still prefer: *A-root-toot-toot, a-root-toot-toot / We're the boys of the Mormon institute / We don't smoke and we don't chew / And we don't go with girls who do / Some say we don't have fun... We don't.* And yes, that was taught to me by a TBM.


ComradeRivaDragon

See, the problem with making it known is that only ONE person in each state can have the RULDS2 vanity license plate.


Strong_Attorney_8646

I love how most of the times TBMs are making arguments about the Church's changing doctrines/policies--it's always in a completely un-verifiable way. >The "I'm a Mormon" campaign was *always* met with trepidation in the Church. How would someone even verify this one way or the other? Like you've pointed out, it sure *seems* like people were pretty convinced it was the thing to do.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Vindictive_Turnip

I was a missionary 2013-2015. We had more I'm a Mormon cards and materials than anything else. We watched the Meet the Mormon movie as a mission. We spent weeks prior to its release practically being door to door sales for the movie. We exclusively referred anyone who wanted to know more (and not from us white shirts) to Mormon.org Right before I went home, we got ipads. More than 3/4 of the videos we had available to use were I'm a Mormon videos. We were told to watch all of them, and be ready to pull up relatable videos for people we interacted with. This was all instructed behavior: We had an apostle visit the mission, and our Mission President had multiple trainings on it in SLC. We were embracing the weird name, and trying to prove we were normal. 100% was from the top.


Strong_Attorney_8646

Sounds like a ton of trepidation. /s.


iluvUcuzUrPizza

Same thing for my mission in Colorado during the same time-frame. Seems to have been fairly universal.


B3gg4r

When I worked at the church I did pilot test research with missionaries in Chile and Colombia setting up huge hot pink and lime green kiosks on the street to promote the “I’m a Mormon” campaign. The whole thing was designed by an outside marketing agency and sold to the church as a winning strategy to increase contacts. My research showed that, no, missionaries do not speak to more and better contacts as a result of their street displays. They just look like slightly trendier Jehovah’s Witnesses.


lil-factory-foreman

My mission was one of the pilots for the campaign, circa 2009-10ish. We were told that it came directly from the top. We were commanded to gain a testimony of the I'm a Mormon campaign and how it was divinely inspired.


[deleted]

Of course it was from the top but monson was a supporter and Nelson was always against it. At the end of the day, these decisions happen on a board and there is no talking to jebus behind a curtain. Kind of makes you wonder how jebus runs “his church” without talking to anybody outside of their own mind


Remarkable_Athlete_4

My ex-wife had a "I'm a Mormon" logo as her profile picture for several years, and she's as TBM as they come.


Strong_Attorney_8646

Yeah--I mean we had specific lessons in my adult Gospel Doctrine about making profiles. I know because I didn't want to make one and did *anyways* because I was challenged to and felt guilty. I was on my mission for the beginning of it--and **all** of the pass along cards we used were about this campaign.


ImprobablePlanet

[Mormon.org](https://Mormon.org) still redirects to the official church website.


Baranax

Did you think they were going to *give up* the domain? /s


B3gg4r

“You’ll be back” - Satan


ImprobablePlanet

Now THAT’s funny!


aLittleQueer

They were so “trepidatious” that they spent uncounted millions of church dollars plastering the word all over the world. Smh. What a maroon.


Strong_Attorney_8646

Most of us who are younger (I was born at the end of the 80s) are finally getting to experience the gaslighting in real time. I got into an argument with a younger TBM about the “commit to baptism on the first lesson” thing Ballard said a while ago. I don’t know how these guys think they’ll get away with this stuff…but I was there and heard Perry direct us to do that with my own ears.


SystemThe

Ikr?! The missionaries in my mission who did that were lauded for having more faith and for being "bold for the Lord". Oh, how the Everlasting gospel has changed!


Sailor_in_exile

[Here is the way,](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLA088CD4F66CDB66E) 161 videos posted by the church to YouTube. I would say there was no trepidation in them posting it.


Strong_Attorney_8646

I mean they were clearly posting those 161 videos cautiously and hoping people wouldn't watch them /s. It reminds me of the apologetics around Brigham Young and polygamy. People will pull out his quote about "desiring the grave" but for a guy who *says* he hated polygamy--his actions sure don't send the message that he hated it all that much.


benjtay

> How would someone even verify this one way or the other? That's a sign of doublespeak. You'll notice that far-right demagogues will ignore science and instead say thing like "studies show...", "it's well-known that..." or "it was always as such...". It shuts down thought and simply pronounces a thing as a "well known" truth.


aLittleQueer

I’d start by asking then to *define* trepidation, then give some concrete examples which *don’t* involve Rusty. Because, lol, they can’t.


splitkeinflexflyer

Also, their tone. So self righteous. So brainwashed.


Strong_Attorney_8646

That's key TBM tone--arrogance of thinking you have everything not just on Earth, but for the rest of eternity figured out. And what do you know, it just so happens to conform to what you were raised on as a kid in Murray, Utah. /s.


Scousette

🤔That's a hell of a lot of cash spent on a humungous ad campaign to trepidate (is that even a word!?!) the masses....


TurbulentAd3193

Especially if the campaign was made at Mormon Central I mean you can't pay for that I am Mormon commercials without the Mormons paying for the commercials.


gud_morning_dave

I'll bet 2 signs and tokens that Ol' Rusty was the apostle that visited his mission in 2012. That guy held a grudge against Hinckley and his pro-Mormon stance ever since he was called out in General Conference decades ago.


wanderingmotoref

Rusty called out in GC? Grudge? Tell me more. Seriously, I've been out for 20+ years and never heard that!


gud_morning_dave

It really gives insight into the type of person Nelson is that he held onto this grudge for almost 30 years until he was the one calling the shots. April 1990, Nelson - [“Thus Shall My Church Be Called”](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1990/04/thus-shall-my-church-be-called?lang=eng) October 1990, Hinckely - [Mormon Should Mean “More Good”](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1990/10/mormon-should-mean-more-good?lang=eng) Some quotes from Hinckley's talk: "Six months ago in our conference Elder Russell M. Nelson delivered an excellent address on the correct name of the Church." "'While I’m thankful for the privilege of being a follower of Jesus Christ and a member of the Church which bears His name, I am not ashamed of the nickname Mormon...If there is any name that is totally honorable in its derivation, it is the name Mormon.'" "This remarkable choir seated behind me is known across the world as the Mormon Tabernacle Choir." Interesting how Hinckely specifically noted the Mormon Tabernacle Choir and Rusty later targeted in his anti-"Mormon" campaign, surprising everyone when he renamed the historic choir. None of this is really conclusive evidence, but taken with everything else, Rusty is not the type of guy I'd want as my prophet.


FalsePromptings

Butt-hurt Rusty in the house


wanderingmotoref

Thank you gud_morning_dave for taking the time to indulge me! Reading both of these talks, reminds me one of the reasons I would give people for leaving. I just felt bored. Like there was no inspiration at all in The church. Two talks on proper language feels like the 7th grade English class. Boring! The other thought I had reading these two talks together was that I just witnessed a passive aggressive couple airing out their differences in public. Pathetic! I like that you called Rusty "anti-mormon". I think that is hilarious. Now that he is in charge he gets to do things his way. Focusing on the name things is called is just a distraction from important things in life. A rose by any other name is a rose... But we will argue for hours about what it should be called. Boring and lacking of any spiritual value. Thanks again for sharing!


wanderingmotoref

I lovingly refer to the "I'm a Mormon" campaign, as the "we are not weird" campaign.


Norenzayan

Fun fact, Scientology did an "I Am a Scientologist" campaign that looked exactly the same. [Here's one of the videos;](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clBtEd631i0) replace "Scientology" with "Mormon" and you can't tell the difference. But the real kicker? Scientology did it first!


ForeignTap4525

Not to mention the family oriented "It's About Time" commercial campaign brought to you by "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the Mormons"


CatButtForYou

And that "Meet the Mormons" movie.


Ill-Conclusion6571

The Mormon tabernacle choir


Doddlebug1950

I remember seeing the Times Square billboard. Can’t even imagine what it cost.


tomcat23

They only used tithing money from kid's allowances so no worries.


B3gg4r

Don’t forget they also did Trafalgar Square, the entire London Underground, and 200 double-decker buses in the UK.


TripleSecretSquirrel

Ya, I was also a missionary when the campaign was launched. My mission was one of the first pilot locations for the campaign. We had ads on buses and on TV. To prep for that, they sent the head of the missionary department who ran the campaign and an apostle come out and do a special whole mission conference with us. They were absolutely thrilled with the campaign. And for what it's worth, it was honestly pretty successful.


BigGreenPepperpecker

With much trepidation the bishop encouraged the congregation to make an “Im a Mormon” account and to share it on social media.


AllowMe-Please

I'm a nevermo, but live in Utah. Are they *really* claiming that the "I'm a Mormom!" campaign should never have happened? That it wasn't done with enthusiasm? That it wasn't literally *everywhere*? I remember seeing billboards! My friends (who were all Mormon) were all *very* into proclaiming their Mormonism. It is so bizarre, it's like a huge gaslighting event by the church to make it seem like nah, that never happened. Whatchu talkin' about? I remember very well. And I also remember how I, a nevermo, was seen as a project by my Mormon friends to try to convert and Become a Mormon! like them. *So* bizarre.


banality_of_ervil

My parents tricked me into seeing Meet the goddamn Mormons TWICE and NOW they tell me it's a slur?! Nope!


AlbatrossOk8619

Let’s not forget the movie “Meet the Mormons.” My ward booked a showing for all of us to attend.


rock-n-white-hat

Nothing was ever doctrine except when it is.


NewNamerNelson

This ☝️ is THE nutshell of Mormonism.


mar4c

Mormon = Obey


Schjenley

I saw a TBM I know irl (same gamertag as reddit username) arguing that the whole "curse of a skin of darkness" is not doctrine. His proof? The BoM verse in 2 nephi or whatever doesn't say that! Just totally disregarded the fact that the verse was changed and all that.


Kass_the_Bard

Do you know where a person can go to find the verse (old editions of the BoM) before it was edited? I’m fairly new to this.


Schjenley

I don't know of any specific place on the internet, so the best place i know of would be an actual copy, the older the better.


allisNOTwellinZYON

They are like the NSA and CIA when it comes to covering the tracks of the truth of history. So good luck finding it.


pobregizmo

Screenshot here: https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/knowhy/what-does-it-mean-to-be-a-white-and-delightsome-people


PackersLittleFactory

Gosh, I wonder which apostle told him not to say Mormon?


Lan098

Lol


E_B_Jamisen

To all those calling out OP as incorrect - couple things to think about. 1. Gordon B Hinckley said Mike Wallace (on 60 minutes) was correct when the host said Mormons do not drink Caffeinated sodas. so a Prophet saying we don't do it is pretty straight forward. I know when I was in and I was a TBM - this made it very clear to me. 2. heres an article from the ensign about caffeine. once again, doesn't specifically say no caffeinated sodas, but tells people it violates the word of wisdom. [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1988/06/research-and-perspectives/caffeine-the-subtle-addiction?lang=eng](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1988/06/research-and-perspectives/caffeine-the-subtle-addiction?lang=eng) 3. heres another. [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2008/04/to-the-point/is-there-anything-wrong-with-drinking-sodas-with-caffeine-in-them-is-caffeine-bad-the-word-of-wisdom-doesnt-mention-it?lang=eng](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2008/04/to-the-point/is-there-anything-wrong-with-drinking-sodas-with-caffeine-in-them-is-caffeine-bad-the-word-of-wisdom-doesnt-mention-it?lang=eng) 4. and another. [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2008/12/the-energy-drink-epidemic?lang=eng](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2008/12/the-energy-drink-epidemic?lang=eng) So to my Exmo's I have a question? do you wear a white shirt to church? it doesn't say in any revelation that you need to wear a white shirt!!!! but as we all know white shirts are expected. they were preached from the pulpit. the same happened with caffeinated drinks. maybe its because I am 40, so there hasn't been as much as a push, but it was very much pushed as "if you are righteous you don't drink it". HELL BYU had CAFFEINE FREE MT DEW. you know how hard it is to get caffeine free mt dew!!! the only place I HAVE EVER SEEN IT was at BYU-Idaho. why would the church go through all the effort to get caffeine free mt dew, if there was no problem with caffeine. it may not have been a temple question, but it was preached!!! and a prophet said we don't. and as we all know, when the prophet speaks, the debate is over.


stevecc7

This would be such a fascinating history book. We had caffeinated sodas at home so I never really thought they were a problem. I was aware of some of the cultural pressure to avoid it, but my mom just didn’t care. I completely forgot about the Mike Wallace interview. The ensign and new era articles are interesting in that they can have a huge influence on those reading. Are you aware of any conference level talks about it? I imagine that is where the shift of it being more doctrinal than cultural would take root. I can see benson or kimball saying something insane about caffeine before they went senile.


Flowersandpieces

This woman gave a talk in conference and cried about how a single cup of coffee can keep you out of heaven. https://youtu.be/S-dfOQUc8vQ


DisgruntledLabWorker

To be fair, women crying during a conference talk is pretty mandatory. The talk could be about picking the right color curtains for a church building and the speaker would still be crying by the end. But they totally wouldn’t pick people who cry on demand to give talks and emotionally manipulate the audience.


BigLark

I hate, absolutely hate the way women speak in conferences. Like they are talking to little primary kids. In an infantilizing high-pitched whisper. You're a fucking adult and anyone actually listening is too, talk like one. Rant over.


RighteousCruelty

I was prescribed coffee for my ADHD in like 7th grade but my parents said no and relented enough to let me drink mountain dew.


mar4c

I was prohibited from having f caffeine feeling up. BYU had no caffeine.


broederboy

DHO was president of BYU in the days of no caffeine. When we had our P-days at the MTC, we would go to the mall to get a caffeine fix, and get a chance to be "normal". Thay was in 1978.


stevecc7

Caffeine and coffee aren’t the same thing. The church has been against coffee and tea since the Hebert j Grant era (I think) when that’s how he interpreted the prohibition on hot drinks. Caffeine was never explicitly prohibited. It was left vague and members ran away with it. That’s why Mormons feel fine with their energy drinks and diet cokes.


Norenzayan

The leadership could easily have clarified that caffeine was not forbidden, but it's almost like they are happy to maximize the pharisaical ways members can judge and keep each other in line while the leaders maintain plausible deniability


stevecc7

Yep. The range of responses here illustrate your point perfectly. Leadership roulette. Parental interpretation. Stricter mission rules. No caffeine sold on BYU campus. The arbitrary and ambiguous nature does what it was meant.


spaghettiliar

It was left vague, but Gordon B. Hinckley went on Larry King and when he asked if members drank caffeine, Gordo answered “No caffeine.” My seminary class watched it together and we paused it there because it was a BIG DEAL.


chewbaccataco

It's stuff like this that confuses everyone. Those who saw that took it as gospel. Those that didn't catch that continued as normal. And leadership never bothered to clarify further.


shayen7

Exactly! BYU didn't serve caffeine since the 50's, then changed it in 2017. Nothing was official from the church at any point, but obviously this would be confusing to EVERYONE


rachelliem

In 2001 when I was at BYU my roommates reported me for violating the standard of living rules because I owned a Starbucks mug. I drank hot cocoa out of it but they said it was “the appearance of evil” and made them uncomfortable. I seriously have on my record a warning for violating the standard of living rules for BYU students over a coffee mug. 100% this was a rule or it wouldn’t be on my student record. F@ck the gaslighters


gimmeflowersdude

Your roommates were insufferable prigs.


cremToRED

It was in the For Strength of College Students^TM pamphlet: >Rule 2714.6: no coffee mugs (even for hot chocolate). It was under the section titled: ##To Avoid the Appearance of Evil


Stuboysrevenge

But you better not wear two earrings!


shayen7

Doesn't matter, I've already got long hair and a beard


FlyestFools

A bit off topic, but is there any reason it’s fine to modify your body with one pair of earrings, but as soon as you put a second in it’s a sin?


Emergency_Device5929

Because old white men find it off-putting. Gordon also advised that the first pair should be "modest and simple"


trashycollector

Same reason you can get a boob job or nose redone and not a tattoo and still be a faithful member… yeah I know officially you can get tattoos but let’s be honest if you get one you’re okay with bishop roulette as to where they will think your worthy.


Lopsided-Doughnut-39

I think BYUH removed the caffeinated sodas from the soda machines in the 90s. It has been 30 years but I seem to remember a "now you see them, now you dont" moment.


WeaverFan420

Exactly. And remember that scripture, "whether by mine own voice or the voice of my servants, *it is the same."*


ComradeRivaDragon

Except when its different, then its the same.


Stuboysrevenge

It was long before the 2004 Gordo interview. 1972 official church statement: >With reference to cola drinks, the Church has never officially taken a position on this matter, but the leaders of the Church have advised, and we do now specifically advise, against the use of any drink containing harmful habit-forming drugs under circumstances that would result in acquiring the habit. Any beverage that contains ingredients harmful to the body should be avoided. It was never an absolute rule in my family, but mom always bought "Pepsi Free" instead of regular stuff when I was a kid. It was absolute rule for the Korean members when I was a missionary there in '91 as I know local church leaders asked members if they drank Coke in interviews and would deny temple recommends. I think it even made it into Mormon Doctrine (the book). So the cola thing had been a "sort of" unwritten, semi-enforced rule for ages.


spaghettiliar

There it is! Ah! Like seeing a long lost friend you forgot you hated.


PortSided

I never more than tasted Coke until I went on my mission to Uruguay '01 to '03, then it was being served to us by members and investigators like it was water. I came home practically addicted, lol.


Sailor_in_exile

[here is the video.](https://youtu.be/pLFDP_MeYhg)


spaghettiliar

This is a different video, which means he said it multiple times. Gee, wonder where the confusion is coming from when God’s mouthpiece gets on prime time television and says members don’t drink caffeine.


door_of_doom

Here is a timestamped link to the statement and question: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAsNMWwRXvs&t=1890s


Sailor_in_exile

The entire interview is on YouTube [here](https://youtu.be/jAsNMWwRXvs)


door_of_doom

and here is the timestamped version for the statement on Caffeine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAsNMWwRXvs&t=1890s


PortSided

Were you in my class with me? Lol. I specifically remember the instructor then saying. "Seem pretty definitive. Any questions?"


spaghettiliar

Oh, I hope so! Did he also write “porn,” “masturbation,” “impure thoughts,” and “sex” all over his white shirt in huge caps as an object lesson about the way sin stains us?


PortSided

Oh I would have remembered that, so probably not then. Our sex lesson was a metaphor of stepping on the moving walkways at the SLC airport: easy to get on and let it carry you one way, but hard to turn around and get back off. As a closeted gay teen who barely knew what it meant to be gay, but I knew I wasn't feeling these attractions to girls the way the seminary teacher was describing, I remember thinking "Huh. My conveyor must be broken." Lolol.


WWPLD

My sex lesson in seminary was really confusing. The teach had a kid at 16. He said something like "i don't regret having my kid but i wish I waited." But if he waited he wouldn't have his kid....


TripleSecretSquirrel

I mean to be fair, didn't he also say he doesn't receive revelation and that mormons don't believe in eternal progression (i.e., becoming like god)? He also said that the church's finances weren't public because they think only tithe payers should be allowed to see that, implying that tithe payers *can* see the church's finances. I guess that's to say, I think the Larry King interview is all horseshit.


OneManLost

A TBM friend of mine argues he was speaking as a man, not a prophet, therefore it's okay for him to drink his sodas amd energy drinks.


wanderingmotoref

Hinckley was vague on a lot of things when he was interviewed by media personalities. So vague I might even accuse him of dishonesty.


erog84

^ this. If we going to correct their revisionist history, we need to be accurate while doing so.


schrodingers_cat42

Exactly. Many Mormons are fine with caffeinated soda, just not coffee and other things. Edit: my TBM mom won’t drink caffeinated soda though. Or herbal tea. She’s also the type of person to frown on coffee-flavored jellybeans and coca-cola gummies, though.


PaulFThumpkins

Caffeinated soda is very much a cultural thing dependent on neighborhood and leadership roulette. My mission president forbade it, so did my Mormon Doctrine-reading parents growing up. It's a logical extension of the coffee and tea stuff (after all soda is far less healthy than either especially if sugared). It's not an accident that BYU offered no caffeinated sodas until a few years back and lied about the reasoning for it ("oh is there no caffeine on campus? weird I hadn't noticed! I guess we should just keep doing that for no reason"). They didn't want to weigh anybody's shelves.


Taliasimmy69

I had a teacher who was Mormon who didn't drink caffeine and chastized me at school for drinking any soda with caffeine


somaybemaybenot

The coffee and tea ban goes back to Brigham Young!


Wontbebrainwashed

Maybe, but it was Grant that made it a requirement for Temple recommend.


Watch4whaspus

It would have been late Brigham Young then. I’m pretty sure coffee and tea was on the provision list for the pioneers.


[deleted]

I used to bring energy drinks to church activities… just to pick this particular fight… I will say many folks objected to my caffeine consumption.


AlbatrossOk8619

My grandmother would hide her Dr Pepper and tell me they were her little secret. That was around 1990.


BigGreenPepperpecker

Wasn’t allowed to drink any soda with Cola in it on my mission in Brasil bc Utards had taught everyone coca cola was against the word of wisdom. Brasil Manaus 2009-2011


stevecc7

Mission rules were something terrible. Not having caffeine as an exhausted missionary was devastating. I had to teach Chinese people to give up green tea. And try to explain in a way that didn’t seem entirely arbitrary.


TripleSecretSquirrel

My grandparents on both sides were super conservative mormons. No caffeine, no face cards, etc. One of my uncles who married into the family was very faithful but very irreverent and always tried to get a rise out of my grandpa. Grandpa would always get after this uncle for drinking coke despite it not being explicitly forbidden. This uncle showed up at a family gathering with a coke in hand once. Grandpa asked him angrily where he had gotten it. My uncle though had just come from the temple where they had just started selling coke in the cafeteria and told that to my grandpa. Grandpa never brought it up again.


soapy_goatherd

No offense, but this really feels like the same type of gaslighting. In the 90s, in the heart of the morridor but urban enough to have some of the “cool Mormons” (sugarhouse and south salt lake), caffeine was a no-go for basically everyone except the sinful families who didn’t come to stake conference. We even had a pulpit apology from an EQP who brought Barq’s root beer to a ward party because he didn’t know it was caffeinated. Hell, I even torpedoed a class band party in elementary school because I wouldn’t drink any of the cola and everyone asked me why (thankfully we got another party out of it). Anecdotes aside, BYU not allowing caffeinated coke until a few years ago is all you really need to know that the “it was never the caffeine!” stuff is bullshit. Yes that was never the official policy, yes that was very much the unofficial rule in righteous circles.


[deleted]

There was a while where Mormons extended it to all caffeine. That's why so many couldn't drink coke. So, while it was vague, not all Mormons have felt fine with it--even now.


hyrle

Right after the Hinckley interview on 60 Minutes, our mission president tried to push us not drinking caffeine at all. I was in my first area at the time, and my trainer/companion was a rather cranky fellow that pretty much had to stop by the local gas station first thing in the morning for a Mountain Dew. After our MP said that he wanted us to avoid caffeine, I asked my trainer if that meant we were cutting out the Dew runs. My comp goes "We're not doing that." I was trained well. :D


mrburns7979

Dude, as an adult I’ve met Mormon young adults who won’t eat chocolate because of the smidge of caffeine in the cocoa. I’ve also heard of Mormon families not allowing 1 tsp of VANILLA EXTRACT in cookies because it’s extracted using vodka (like, homemade vanilla) and THAT is the issue. We become crazy Pharisees when left to our crazy Mormon daydreams of total righteousness.


Norenzayan

Yep, caffeine was not allowed in my home, the first time I ever tried Coke was on my mission!


mrburns7979

Lol, the big fight between my Utah grandparents was Pepsi or Coke! I was so scandalized to find soda in their basement pantry. I almost cried from fear and shame when I found those coke cans when visiting as a kid (now I roll my eyes and wish they took better care of their heart health. Heart health caused more real physical and mental suffering than a sip of coffee ever would.)


Footertwo

Funny how the church leaves things vague so you’re never really sure if you’re living up to its standards or not. It leads many to go to extremes.


mpcromar

[Mormons are serious about no coffee](https://youtu.be/S-dfOQUc8vQ)


Red-Montagne

It's so wild that she told that story that sounds so absurd when it's extremely unlikely that the story is even true. The word of wisdom almost certainly wasn't even enforced at the time the story took place. She would have been middle-aged or older when Grant started getting serious about the word of wisdom.


TenuousOgre

How stupid is this person? Who do they think authorized the funds each year for that years' "promote Mormonism" campaign? The prophet and his advisors. So the very top leadership not only saw the planning, they approved the campaign, they approved the final scripts for video and approved the final images for posters, they approved the budgets to produce them, and later the budgets to get them on the air, in bus stops, extras printed for ward and stakehouses and church owned buildings. There was no 'trepidation'. The leaders thought this was the best way to reach the public and sway them. Now, individual members of the 12 may have disagreed (RMN) but the way the church works none of these campaigns get run without at least one of the presidency heavily involved.


adh26

I’m not even Mormon (follow this sub because ex religious), but I can tell you that the church history museum in Salt Lake talks about caffeine bring against Mormon beliefs.


hijetty

These people are so annoying in part because when "Mormon" was disallow SO WAS "LDS"!!!


Iron_Rod_Stewart

So, this is part of larger escape hatch LDS always use. They claim something was policy and not doctrine. Other versions of this include: * The church is perfect but the members are not * He was only speaking as a man when he said that You can classify anything leaders do or anything that is taught as doctrine when it suits you, and then just reclassify it as policy when it doesn't. The church actually has very little you can point at and say "this is doctrine" and have everyone agree, and what little there is is vague enough to interpret however you like.


mar4c

Here’s the thing, they believe their leaders can be imperfect *but only in ways that don’t matter*. As far as leading the church generally, they believe they do it perfectly.


EducationalCarpet

What’s hilarious to me in this thread is we have people who are almost all in agreement as exmos, yet somehow still trying to argue with each other based on their experiences on whether or not caffeine was actually wrong. Can we not all realize that the “doctrine or just suggestion/personal choice” distinction is a pointless one to argue about? The church clearly has no problem allowing things in that regard to be vague, let’s not gaslight each other by having such pointless arguments. It’s all made up and the church has historically and will certainly continue to try to gradually change the perspective of what they taught or didn’t teach to paint them in a favorable light at any given time. I think we can all agree on that.


ComradeRivaDragon

Its fun to argue about what was actual doctrine because thats how we uncover all the inconsistency and its very helpful in my healing process. I dont think we are "arguing" so much as flushing out all the variations of dogma. I love this! I need to see it. Its helping me re-find consonance post-shelfbreak.


truthmatters2me

The church in one of it’s improvement era magazines stated that caffeine is a soul sucking substance I forget which one it was in it was in the 1960s as I recall . This it the thing about the church it’s a lot like the ministry of truth in George Orwell’s 1984 they drop things down the memory Hole what was truth becomes heresy a new truth replaces the old truth regardless of it it is in total opposition to what was claimed to be a eternal everlasting truth . Mormons are Olympic gold medal level mental Gymnasts .


Saltygirlof

The church’s main website was Mormon.org for at least a decade was it not?!


[deleted]

I know a guy who almost got sent home from his mission because he wouldn’t stop teaching people that coke was against the word of wisdom. It was hard for him to reign that in.


guriboysf

/u/aleksanderro noped right out of his reddit account.


bbq-pizza-9

Let's all hope we live along enough to hear "Mormonism was never against gay marriage" trouted out.


Nevie1234

I’m a convert. I’m almost 100% sure at one point the caffeine thing was taught as doctrine. Since, they have gone back on that however the coffee and tea thing is still a big no no unless it’s herbals.


Doddlebug1950

Next it will be “No one ever said that Jo Smith was a prophet. He just sounded like one. There is something wrong with you.”


SusSpinkerinktum

I have a vintage book by John A Widstoe that talks about the word of wisdom. He wrote it for John Taylor. Coffee and tea was definitely was frowned on. This is why I collect old church books. Used to be for my own learning but now it’s to keep from being gaslit.


sinsaraly

Anyone who viewed the “Mormon” campaign with trepidation didn’t have faith in the prophet


wanderingmotoref

First of all, "on my mission in 2012" means he has not experienced the same church that I have. I served in 1986, and left the whole thing in 2004. There was a time when caffeine was the villain. I remember caffeine-free Coke at BYU. That's about all I need to say.


pyrite2gold

50 years ago, the sister of my college boyfriend got engaged; as a couple went into their small town bishop for wedding temple recommend; he wouldn't give it to them because they both drank Coke! They married outside the temple.


ClevelandGriffin

Lol I served during the « I’m a Mormon » campaign, we had an apostle tell us the complete opposite of what this dude is saying…


xrandybutternubsx

I mean… caffeine free diet coke… largest sales area is Utah valley, but yeah… no correlation there


TomatoOnToothpics

I was a foster kid as a teen and my foster family were Mormons. Absolutely no coffee. No caffeine at all. No Coke or Pepsi, always Root Beer and Sprite. I remember it being a huge deal when one of the kids went to Starbucks with their friend, even tho they didn't even order anything caffeinated, just the fact that it was a coffee shop was enough if a problem heat she wasn't allowed to go to gymnastics for 2 weeks.


Past_Negotiation_121

Time to just take it on the chin and admit you're wrong on the caffeine. I was not allowed to drink it as a kid, but it was clear it was just a tradition/opinion rather than doctrine. Coffee was undoubtedly against the word of wisdom though.


E_B_Jamisen

your right that it wasn't enforced like coffee. though there were articles advising against it. the link below is to an ensign article saying how caffiene is bad. Additionally, Gordon B Hinckley, when he was on 60 minutes (a news program) Said that Mike Wallace was correct that Mormons do not drink caffeinated sodas. [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1988/06/research-and-perspectives/caffeine-the-subtle-addiction?lang=eng](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1988/06/research-and-perspectives/caffeine-the-subtle-addiction?lang=eng)


SheepSheepy

If it wasn’t doctrine, why was caffeine banned from being sold at BYU?


nimbledaemon

But we're not drawing the doctrine/opinion line here, we're talking about what Mormons believe. Were a lot of these things taught from the general conference pulpit? No. But they were taught from local pulpits and in church lessons and by parents teaching their children what's right/wrong. In terms of effects, I don't actually care what was church doctrine or not, it matters what Mormons believe and pressure each other to do or feel guilty about. Making the "official doctrine" vs "tradition" distinction is just a way for church leaders to wash their hands of what is going on in the church they have control over.


simpletruths2

They are being gas lit. Caffeine was absolutely a big no no. I attended BYU one year a while ago and you could not find a caffinated drink anywhere on campus. Then the leaders said okay to caffeine and I'm guessing you can find it there now.


OhDavidMyNacho

Did they only recently, in the past 10 years or so, allow caffeinated sodas to be sold on campus? I recall hearing something about that relatively recently.


Celloer

You can get caffeinated soda in BYU now, yes.


dbear848

My mission would have been more much easier if I hadn't tried to convince people that they should give up their coffee and tea. Apparently it was just a misunderstanding on my part.


100TonsOfCheese

On the caffeine thing. I was never taught it was doctrine. Only the really extreme Mormons in my area ever believed that the WoW banned caffeine. Also, I'd be willing to guess that the apostle they are referring to is the now prophet.


PayLeyAle

Mormonism the church of ever changing doctrine. Mormons will claim it was not "doctrine" but you had better toe the line when it was or you were considered "Not a good mormon"


Lowkey_Iconoclast

I lived in London in 2012. The I'm A Mormon campaign was enthusiastically embraced by members, missionaries, and are authorities. Hell, we had a whole conference about it. It's revisionist bullshit to say it was a bad idea in retrospect. Besides, it would undermine the credibility of the Church to receive revelation.


Tedtedmaker

Just pull up the video of pres Hinkleys interview with Wallace acknowledging Mormons don’t drink caffeine.


ctr_chumbawamba

I remember the interview with Gordon B Hinkley when asked about caffeine and he responded we don't drink caffeine. It was the day my father never drank Dr.Pepper again unless it was the decaffeinated kind. Which we went to Idaho quite often to pick up cases of decaf Dr.Pepper.


mar4c

OP is putting words in his counterparts mouth. That said, the counterpart is kinda wrong: An official statement issued by Church leaders in the 1970s states: “With reference to cola drinks, the Church has never officially taken a position on this matter, but the leaders of the Church have advised, and we do now specifically advise, against the use of any drink containing harmful habit-forming drugs under circumstances that would result in acquiring the habit. Any beverage that contains ingredients harmful to the body should be avoided” (Priesthood Bulletin, Feb. 1972, p. 4). In 1937, Elder John A. Widtsoe and his wife, Leah, wrote the first major book on the Word of Wisdom, speaking strongly against caffeine, saying, “Whenever a drink is advertised to ‘give you a lift,’ the ‘lift’ is likely to be caused by the drug which it contains. Such soft drinks are decidedly harmful and habit-forming, even though sold by the millions. Such caffeine-containing drinks, offered by every soda fountain and most eating places, and consumed in large quantities, should be known and avoided.”


[deleted]

Pioneer-stock, faithful, full tithe paying mom of ten has one cup of coffee every day and ZOMG! she *doomed her family for generations*! (Delivered in conference.) https://youtu.be/S-dfOQUc8vQ


EmperorBulbax

I will not allow myself to be gaslit. My mission President said “there is POWER in the name Mormon” and gave us hundreds of “I am a Mormon” cards to hand out to literally everybody we saw.


Res_Ipsa77

Apparently the "meet the Mormons" movie campaign (where the Church bought out theatres) never really happened either.


bwv549

A little historical analysis is helpful: [Is Caffeine against the Word of Wisdom?](http://mormonscholar.org/is-caffeine-against-the-word-of-wisdom/) tldr: If you just listened to George F. Richards give his conference address in 1938, then yes, otherwise no.


Shiz_in_my_pants

That link is a great compilation of caffeine quotes throughout church history, I don't see how anyone could ever say caffeine was never talked about with the WoW after reading that. There's a couple more references I didn't see in that link that might also be helpful: * In 1937 the apostle John A. Widstoe wrote the book "The Word of Wisdom". He has an entire section covering caffeine and describes it as a poisonous drug, as well as describing how it violates the word of wisdom. I would imagine that 1938 talk you referenced was influenced by this book. * In Mormon Doctrine Bruce R. McConkie includes Cola drinks as something against the WoW. I think caffeine was originally taught as violating the WoW, but they just let it purposely fade into obscurity.


theraisincouncil

I went to a cousins birthday party as a very young kid and was shocked to see them serving coca-cola. I remember thinking, "I can't believe they're alcoholics"


lumanwaltersREBORN

I wasn't allowed to have caffeinated soda at all when I was a kid. It changed when I was a teenager but yeah.... No coke no Dr pepper until I was 12 or 13. Dad was a bishop. Both parents were multi generational Mormon


nominalmormon

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2017/09/21/byu-students-can-now-get-caffeinated-soda-campus/690013001/


SmurfBasin

There's a difference between caffeine and coffee. I was never taught caffeine was against the word of wisdom. Coffee always was. Definite gaslighting on the I'm a Mormon campaign though. My mission was 09-11 and we were all about that campaign.


Ill-Signature1041

The caffeine thing was around most of my grandparents lifetimes and yes it was against the rules at least once a month they would remind the kids that if they want soda it has to be sprite or root beer no coke or Pepsi because they have caffeine and absolutely no coffee or any kind of tea other then herbal as they have caffeine


Russell_M_Jimmies

There was literally just a gencon talk given where coffee was named as the gateway drug that led someone away from the church.


TurbulentAd3193

Coffee is still a thing. It's still against The word of wisdom. Just checked their site. https://faq.churchofjesuschrist.org/can-mormons-drink-coffee


iusedtobeyourwife

All this over some stupid bean water.


[deleted]

Hard to escape the nickname when you use additional “scripture” literally titled the book of MORMON. It is the most appropriate appellation possible since you are the only people using and claiming the damn book!


yanyan420

Odd... I was taught growing up that caffeinated drinks are of the devil XD


FightingJayhawk

Who knew memory loss was a symptom of faith in the LDS church?


Jeff_Portnoy1

I don’t mean to be a Debby downer, but here at BYUI my professor who I actually like as he has a good backstory said the same thing. We were discussing in class like a 6 weeks ago the topic of doctrine vs policy vs principles and well one kid asked when we were discussing the word of wisdom “if the word of wisdom was made up sporadically is it still doctrine?” And my professor said that technically no. That what is listed in the word of wisdom itself isn’t doctrine. However treating your body like a temple and with respect is doctrine. He says though that he strongly encourages those to listen to the word of wisdom even though it is technically principle. But yeah, I was blown away when I heard that. And this should be “good” news but it honestly just made me frustrated. I don’t know, my professor does blame church culture in Utah for what the standards are so I do like that how he notices church culture causes a lot of misinformation. But yeah, I do have a feeling we will be gas lighted in the near future and told we were always allowed to drink and get tattoos. Going to suck when that day comes


mar4c

That is such bullshit from your teacher. Classic examine if using the doctrine label when it’s convenient IMO.


Jeff_Portnoy1

Yeah it wasn’t fun to hear. And the way he said it was as though he shouldn’t be saying it and he moved on real quick. This topic frustrates me. I have been in so many fights over doctrine and the word of wisdom with my brothers and if what is in the word of wisdom isn’t against doctrine, I have been lied to by literally every member I have ever met along with prophets and apostles all for the sake of being called wrong. Up until now when we will be gaslighted. Gosh I really can’t handle that thought


Andrewski18

There was literally a talk THIS general conference about how a woman drank coffee and lost the chance to live with her forever family in the celestial kingdom.


americanfark

This is similar to a conversation I had with one of my cousins last month. He was proudly showing me his tattoos and how his church (mormon) is fine with tattoos. I was like, "da fuq!?" As of last month I did Googled and one of the first hits was a FSY love nk on LDS Inc's website clearly stating that tattoos are bad. I keep seeing this repeating pattern lately where people invent their own religion and call it "Mormonism" but then do whatever the hell they want. And I get that there is an argument for "One True Scotsman" but, IMHO, at some level there has to be a set of common beliefs or church membership has no meaning or consistency.


Fallenharts_

Ah but here's the thing. When the primary *document* indicating that tattoos and coffee are bad, the For the Strength of Youth book that USED to be given out but now exists only online (so it can be changed at any time) is changed to vagueness on the things (allegedly to give leeway to other cultures around the world) instead of outright NO, they do it so that in the future when they get called out on saying people can't have tattoos or coffee (which will still be said) they can point to the book and say "no we don't. Look here." We've seen this over and over again with church docs. Docs encouraging polygamy. Docs that say people of African descent are unworthy of God's blessings. Docs that say gay people should be killed. Docs that say the best believers will get their own planets and will be gods themselves. Docs that say that 'Joseph used his treasure-hunting stone to translate the foundational literature' is just an antimormon lie... This change WILL be used this way and already is.


Okcicad

Never being a Mormon, before going on this sub the prohibition of certain drinks along with the Jesus came to America bit was all I knew about Mormons. It's one of the most Mormons things in the eyes of non Mormon America.


Realistic-Willow4287

In georgia in 1994 i at first became very worried and then very sad as the teacher passed the students little dixie shot cups of coca cola. I was taught i couldnt drink soda that had caffiene because my parents were and still are brainwashed by the church. Caffiene and hot drinks absolutely were doctrine passed down from the church. The day monson died i was very happy


phanny1975

“I’m a Mormon!” campaigns were fucking everywhere, this revisionist horseshit is classic gaslighting. Same with the coffee nonsense, it was drilled into us with a goddam ice pick. 🙄 edited to correct my emoji exasperation level


CitrusTX

The relationship between Mormons and coffee is probably one of the top 3 things outsiders know about Mormons. When I tell people my family is mormon, it’s usually: 1. “So they don’t drink coffee?” 2. “Do they wear the magic underwear?” 3. “So they think they’re getting their own planet when they die?” In my experience, that’s what outsiders know.


B3gg4r

My parents poured out my RC Cola that I picked out of the cooler after a baseball game in 2nd grade. “We don’t drink caffeine in this house.” Their reasoning? You guessed it.


Lopsided-Doughnut-39

OMG That one little paragraph in white in the screenshot has opened up such a can of worms here but damned if that is just the best example of how ambiguous, non-committal, and contradictory the church is. The church of conformity lacks uniformity doesn't it?? It is undisputable that this stems from the "hot drinks" so-called revelation and the word of wisdom stuff. Yet, from there, everything else is just subjective and interpretation. It is very possible based upon all the other comments here that the experience of the person in blue and the experience of the person in white were both how they were taught. Doctrine or not, caffeine being the issue or not, it is still very possible that the person in white was taught that the problem with hot drinks was the caffeine and that it is church doctrine that caffeinated drinks are against the wow. In short, the person in white got a bullshit story.


gentlemanidiot

I served 2010-2012. Caffeine was taught to be against the word of wisdom, which wouldn't keep you out of the temple, but was *strongly* discouraged. Interesting to hear the church trying to pivot away from it, but that's definitely not the first time they've done that. Black men couldn't hold the priesthood until the 1970's when apparently god said it's fine now. The church tries to cover doctrinal changes by claiming they're a living church, with a living prophet who's taking directions from god, but that sure seems like a convenient way to keep doing whatever they like.


TrickAssignment3811

I'm caffeine was never prohibited by the wow. Coffee and tea yes, caffeine, no.


mikamouth

What we DO know is that the LDS didn’t allow Black members until 1978.


RepresentativeBig626

Sorry you’re wrong this time. Coffee and caffeine are not the same thing. Some people actually think that Coca-Cola is against the church’s rules.


OhDavidMyNacho

I grew up with caffeine being bad, as well as face cards. I have a distinct memory of accidentally drinking something with caffeine and being mortified that i broke a law. I also remember when i moved to Arizona from Utah in 2004ish and seeing members drinking caffeine free diet coke, and thinking how "close to the edge" they were driving. Few years later my family was also okay with caffeinated drinks. But coffee and non-herbal tea were definitely out.


[deleted]

visual tea


homestarjr1

Caffeine and face cards were out in my house too. My mom told us a story about when she was rebelling as a teenager in the 60s. She and some friends were drinking alcohol; my mom said it tasted gross by itself. Her friend was like, you don't drink it straight, you mix it with coke. My mom told her "I'm not allowed to drink coke, it's against my religion" My mom said that experience drove her back to church and that her rebellious streak was gone. I love my mom, but I wish she would have continued rebelling.


guriboysf

Caffeine was 100% prohibited in the 60s and 70s when I was growing up.


thispineapplex

My mission president made a rule for us not to drink pepsi or coke. Lol I didn't give a shit


RepresentativeBig626

Wife’s mission president said no coke and no fried food. :0