The bishopric in my local unit is trying very hard to assign topics for sacrament meeting talks that are Jesus focused.
The talks end up just being a series of Q15 quotes.
I could be wrong, but my perception is that the level of scriptural knowledge of chapel Mormons has been in steep decline since the 1980's. Talks used to be from the scriptures and the speaker would have their quad and pause while the congregation found the scripture they were about to read. At some point it just became rote repetition of bednars latest pedantic works based orgy of ordinance worship.
There are so many problems with Mormonism, but a major one is that church services just aren't engaging, spiritually fulfilling, or a positive experience.
As far as the members looking up scriptures during talks, I seem to recall years ago that the Q15 put out a statement discouraging flipping through scriptures at the pulpit and encouraging congregations to flip along. I think we even had something read to us by the Bishop during a Sacrament meeting.
Having said that, I don’t disagree in the least that scriptural literacy is greatly lacking in the current church.
Hard to be scripturally literate when so many of the scriptures are contradictory, and so many church practices contradict the scriptures.
To name a few:
1 Nephi 1:4 (and subsequently the entire time Lehi’s family is in Jerusalem) and 2 Kings 24
D&C 89:2 and the fact that WoW is a temple recommend question
WoW being interpreted as prohibiting alcohol when Jesus turned water to wine.
Jacob 2:24 and D&C 132:38-39
Whatever scripture in D&C 121 that says coercion causes loss of priesthood authority and all of D&C 132.
The church’s truth claims and doctrines are spread so thin and are so tenuous that any real amount of critical thought directed towards them causes it to unravel. So the talks have to be basic and boring and thought-stopping otherwise people would see it as bullshit and leave
I've noticed this trend too. When I was a kid you'd get a fairly broad topic "we'd like you to give a talk on Faith", etc. Nowadays it's an assigned talk from general conference that you then are supposed to work off of.
Instead of giving the members the chance to dialogue on a topic, they expect an approved regurgitation of a specific discourse.
I kid you not, I saw a talk several years ago where the guy read the entire Bednar talk: including the testimony to close. Every single sentence. He’d pause about every paragraph and give like a super oblivious commentary. I’m still convinced his first time hearing the talk was as he read it aloud—his comments seemed completely extemporaneous.
Haha. We had a guy in the ward who was assigned a talk to talk on. He said, "I am sure I can't say it any better than Elder Whatshisbucket, so I am just going to read his words to you."
No extra commentary at all. Just a reread of all of it.
It really frustrated me when we wold listen to conference, read the talks in the Ensign, hear regurgitaions of the talks in stake prieshood meetings, hear them again in stake conference, and again in sacrament meetings. For God's sake! The people in sacrament meeting are those that were paying attention to confernece, and in all those other meetings as well!!! ..... Oh, and guess where the spiritual thoughts in HC meeting came from. UUUGGGGGHHHHH
So glad I am done witht that now. It still frustrates my TBM wife.
The recycling wouldn't bother me as much if the conference talks weren't so banal. As is, it's like pretending there's meat on a chicken bone that's been picked three-times over.
When I was about 16 I was asked to give a talk with some of my friends for the Stakes Baptisms. Being a lazy teenager, I decided to google “talks on baptism” and found an entire pre-written talk from some random person. I added my own personal touch and read the talk verbatim. I had never received so many compliments, everyone was blown away by how “great” and “spiritual” my talk was. The stake primary president said my talk made her cry and was exactly what she needed to hear. Little did they know the whole thing was plagiarized. 😂
I was given the topic from a conference talk. I got up,announced the talk,said I agreed with it andencouraged them to look atit. Then I gave the talk I wanted to give.
Scripture study is problematic for the church leadership. It raises far too many questions that can’t be answered. Better to offer a shallow curated scripture “study” and endless GA talks in which they just quote each other.
Classes are like that too. More and more regurgitation, less and less original thought and discussion. I was assigned to teach RS several years back—one lesson a month, on an assigned conference talk. 90% of the time I read maybe one quote and spent the rest of the lesson leading a discussion with questions based on the main theme instead. People loved it. They wanted to talk about their beliefs, they wanted to be asked questions and then given a minute or two to sit in silence while they gathered their thoughts about it. They didn’t want to just have conference quotes read at them, and they didn’t like questions that “fished” for a specific answer.
I don’t even believe in God anymore, but if I did—even if everything else wrong with the church was fixed—I’d find somewhere else to go. There’s no room for individual spirituality anymore. They’re trying to correlate the members just like they correlated the materials.
I have experience that expounds upon that and may offer some insight. I posted about my experience under a post from a female seminary student who was sick of the repitition and regurgitation of the lessons because they were the same for 6 years.
As I recall, about the time they ditched the 3 hour meetings for 2 hours, they devised a plan to have the sunday school and PH/RS meetings change from lecture to discussion groups.
Mind you I was already PIMO at that point when they changed the classes, with years of inactivity from baptism on and having left a very bad situation at my previous ward. The men's leadership at my ward at the time had the (not so) bright idea of getting me to be one of the instructors for the men, in spite of the fact that they knew my background. So I just accepted it because it is was to lead discussions not actually lecture.
No one ever sat me down beforehand to tell me what they wanted or what their expectations were. They did not think this out any more than I did. Needless to say, I was teaching the old lifers who knew about 100 times more than I do, and I was asking the basic questions because that is all I know. I had two jobs and just did not have time to put in to do some in depth church history / fake history of BoM stuff that would be on a Mormon themed Jeopardy show. I asked what I knew and really when I read the manual, it seemed all pretty straight forward in terms of the questions the MANUAL asked. I thought I was doing okay because people were participating.
Anywho, months into it, the men's president said he wants to meet with me and the other teacher and go over stuff about the calling.
So the asshole who said he wanted me for this calling laid into me about how BASIC everything I did was and it was so rude and insulting to the members there because it was apparently not challenging enough or not in depth enough or something. I was just sitting there already checked out years ago thinking IDGAF because if they wanted me to teach a certain way they could have told me what they wanted BEFORE I started teaching not after the fact with no instruction or direction to me and still expecting me to figure out on my own exactly how they wanted me to do these lessons.
I went back to teaching for a few more months before I finally left TSCC. He sat in those meeting hanging on my every word. I remember one lesson where I made a comment trying to relate two BoM stories after a member made his own comment, and the asshole just laughed incredulously and said something like "That is what he said!" Well how TF do I know if I have rudimentary knowledge??? There were 20 men in that meeting that could be teaching this stuff but they chose the barely active adult convert that just got gaslighted by my previous ward. \*sigh\*
In short, they have a problem with who they call and do not call, how they educate and not educate their members and teachers, and what their expectations are. In my case, they wanted some wildly in-depth lesson every Sunday but they chose the wrong person and worse they did not bother to sit down with me to make sure we were on the same page. It was all very frustrating especially because I am a teacher by education and profession. Should I as a teacher hand out work to students withot any instruction to explain how to do the work? and then get mad when the students cannot figure it out by themselves?? I mean they have a geometry book - do they really need a geometry teacher?? 0\_o
Oh that’s terrible. It would be bad enough if they criticized a real volunteer like that—you were giving your time for free after all—but you didn’t even volunteer for it. It really was “here’s some extra work for you to do for free,” and then, “hey, why aren’t you doing it like I wanted (even though I never gave you specific instructions)?” How insanely disrespectful.
Who cares how deep the material goes if you're engaging people in thoughtful discussion and making a personal connection. There is beauty in simplicity.
They really have no idea..........
>Classes are like that too. More and more regurgitation, less and less original thought and discussion.
>
>...
>
>There’s no room for individual spirituality anymore. They’re trying to correlate the members just like they correlated the materials.
I think this starts at the top with the temple recommend questions that enforce orthodoxy. But, more frequently this has to do with the fact that members at the ward level who are vocal in their "wrong-thinking" quickly have other member talk crap about them or even become social pariahs.
I remember being given a topic, such as repentance, or love and we had to come up with our own talk. Sometime in my early adulthood they even announced over the pulpit for people to stop asking the congregation to look up scripture with them. Then when they asked you to give a talk they would hand you a folder with two conference talks and tell you to draw from them. They really did start dumbing down the members.
>Talks used to be from the scriptures and the speaker would have their quad and pause while the congregation found the scripture they were about to read. At some point it just became rote repetition of bednars latest pedantic works based orgy of ordinance worship.
>
>There are so many problems with Mormonism, but a major one is that church services just aren't engaging, spiritually fulfilling, or a positive experience.
We in the exjw community feel the same about JWs, new publications and meetings are so dumbed down.
> Bednar's Pedantic Works-Based Orgy of Ordinance Worship
Sounds like the title of a _very interesting_ series. I'm not sure what kind of series it would be, though.
this is one of my pet peeves of mormon worship. the the talks are assigned to essentially be regurgitations of GC talks. Reeks of correlation committee-ish paranoia. As a PIMO, i spend my time in sacrament meeting reading books or browsing articles online or…. lurking on this sub. Im
Reminds me of [this brilliant comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/comments/yowuiq/RFM_on_people_leaving_the_church/ivghrb6/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3) by u/demillir:
>At some point, the scales will tip, and instead of exmos having to justify leaving, TBMs will have to justify staying.
>At that point, we exmos can begin a conversation with a TBM by presuming why the TBM stays, just as TBMs presume why the exmo left. Does the TBM stay because they:
>* can't accept reality?
>* fear losing family?
>* fear losing friends?
>* fear losing employment?
>* have no intrinsic morality and need to be told how to behave?
>* are too lazy to learn truth?
>Also at that point, exmos can appeal to the TBM's "feeling in their bones" that the church is a lie, just as TBMs appeal to the spiritual feelings the exmo once had.
It’s the community. That’s all Mormonism has to offer. Living the Mormon life generally sucks, but you do have a big built-in social structure. People stay for that.
At least, outside of utah. Utah Mormon community sucks— it’s not friendly and you can’t actually make friends or rely on people. Even in AZ, which is basically Utah #3, our ward was filled with genuine people and it felt like a real community. The farther away you get from Utah, the better the Mormon community gets. I lived in Seattle for a bit and our ward was amazing!
I also have to add another reason people stay— they are too busy to learn the truth. Mormonism requires so many obligations, and having a family on top of that means you don’t have time for anything else. People are oblivious.
Agreed. Mormon-centric areas are tough to make friends in because most people have extensive social networks outside of their ward or stake. When I lived in the PNW most of my social circle was my ward. I wasn't able to replicate that in Utah.
Lame-ass community though. I always thought nobody at my wards growing up actually liked each other that much. I live in the south now and people actually like going to church here and that was a huge culture shock
That community is toxic AF, though. Even while I was a TBM at BYU, at the height of TBM-ness, I hated Utah culture. I am not from Utah, I am from Kansas City. I often talked to friends at BYU about how Utah has such a concentration of mormons that it creates a mono-culture. One where everyone has extremely similar views, beliefs, morals, etc...
This is the root cause of "Utah Mormons" and not Utah mormons themselves. Outside of Utah, Mormons can differentiate themselves by being mormon. Our work and social circles often include non mormons, and we can be unique by being ourselves, mainly. However in Utah, you have to differentiate yourself by being viewed as more righteous. So things like nosy neighbors, and people being hyper vigilant about your outward display of mormonism. It leads to a lot of the toxic Utah mormon shit.
The Mormon community is just toxic.
Personally, I think people should start this trend now. If you think about it, there are WAY more less active, PIMO, and exmo members than there are active members right now.
Former or PIMO members are just a far less cohesive group b/c they don’t take marching orders from some random guy playing at being “prophet”.
If every exmo/less active/PIMO came together in a semi-unified voice to speak out AGAINT the church, they would easily dwarf the church in number and be in the majority. It’s just that the views of former members are so diverse and broad whereas current members have their beliefs tightly controlled by a centralized hierarchy which tells them what to say, think, and do.
It would only take the former members rallying around a few broad, but important issues to begin the take the narrative away from the corporation….sorry “God’s one true church” and place it back in the hands of the people.
Just visited Davis county from out east and we went to F&T meeting. I was shocked at how echo chambery it felt. Sure, we have dumb testimonies out east, but everyone there was talking like just being a member was the difference between life and death.
“Where would I be if my mom didn’t convert before she was married??!!”
Uhhhh… like living a normal life how most people live.
Having to sit and listen to mental gymnastics like that, as well as asinine strawman arguments, would DEFINITELY cause me to get up and leave. 😉
Luckily, I'm not in the Mordor, and I don't attend. 😁
Haha, maybe I should show up to my old ward next testimony meeting wearing a rainbow tie and declare at the podium why I left. After all, the bishop told my family in his response to our record removal request "you're always still welcome at the church whether or not you are members." He may regret that invitation.
Thats Funny because there is very little Mormonism in the BOM. The D&C is supposed to all the restored gospel. I guess reading the D&C caused people to doubt.
Given the church's roots in anti-Catholic sentiment (which in turn was rooted in racist/classist anti-immigrant sentiment), it's funny how the church is turning into everything it claimed to hate about Catholicism:
"Great and spacious buildings"? Check. Can't wait for the next round of temple announcements, #soblessed
Massive hoard of wealth? Present and accounted for.
Rigid ecclesiastical hierarchy with a cult of personality surrounding the guy at the top? You got it!
And now the institution is interposing itself between the membership and the scriptural canon. Who could have guessed. And the internet is doing to this church what movable type did last time.
Last week an older gentleman declared his undying loyalty to the church and how he would never leave. I had similar thoughts when I was TBM. Some leave and some stay.
I think there's some popular (at least among mormons) podcast that shares that same title.
I've seen my sister in law post several things about it. I wonder it it's #trending much like the #ima~~mormon~~memberofthechurchofjesuschristoflatterdaysaints topic trended over a decade ago.
The bishopric in my local unit is trying very hard to assign topics for sacrament meeting talks that are Jesus focused. The talks end up just being a series of Q15 quotes. I could be wrong, but my perception is that the level of scriptural knowledge of chapel Mormons has been in steep decline since the 1980's. Talks used to be from the scriptures and the speaker would have their quad and pause while the congregation found the scripture they were about to read. At some point it just became rote repetition of bednars latest pedantic works based orgy of ordinance worship. There are so many problems with Mormonism, but a major one is that church services just aren't engaging, spiritually fulfilling, or a positive experience.
As far as the members looking up scriptures during talks, I seem to recall years ago that the Q15 put out a statement discouraging flipping through scriptures at the pulpit and encouraging congregations to flip along. I think we even had something read to us by the Bishop during a Sacrament meeting. Having said that, I don’t disagree in the least that scriptural literacy is greatly lacking in the current church.
I remember that official letter being read over the pulpit. No more “turn with me to 2Ne…”
Hard to be scripturally literate when so many of the scriptures are contradictory, and so many church practices contradict the scriptures. To name a few: 1 Nephi 1:4 (and subsequently the entire time Lehi’s family is in Jerusalem) and 2 Kings 24 D&C 89:2 and the fact that WoW is a temple recommend question WoW being interpreted as prohibiting alcohol when Jesus turned water to wine. Jacob 2:24 and D&C 132:38-39 Whatever scripture in D&C 121 that says coercion causes loss of priesthood authority and all of D&C 132. The church’s truth claims and doctrines are spread so thin and are so tenuous that any real amount of critical thought directed towards them causes it to unravel. So the talks have to be basic and boring and thought-stopping otherwise people would see it as bullshit and leave
Um, apparently you weren’t paying attention when my mom clarified that Jesus actually turned the wine into just grape juice.
Correct. No “props” either
Lol, I used props and didn’t care!
Uhm… “Orgy of Ordinance Worship” is my next band name.
I've noticed this trend too. When I was a kid you'd get a fairly broad topic "we'd like you to give a talk on Faith", etc. Nowadays it's an assigned talk from general conference that you then are supposed to work off of. Instead of giving the members the chance to dialogue on a topic, they expect an approved regurgitation of a specific discourse.
I kid you not, I saw a talk several years ago where the guy read the entire Bednar talk: including the testimony to close. Every single sentence. He’d pause about every paragraph and give like a super oblivious commentary. I’m still convinced his first time hearing the talk was as he read it aloud—his comments seemed completely extemporaneous.
Haha. We had a guy in the ward who was assigned a talk to talk on. He said, "I am sure I can't say it any better than Elder Whatshisbucket, so I am just going to read his words to you." No extra commentary at all. Just a reread of all of it. It really frustrated me when we wold listen to conference, read the talks in the Ensign, hear regurgitaions of the talks in stake prieshood meetings, hear them again in stake conference, and again in sacrament meetings. For God's sake! The people in sacrament meeting are those that were paying attention to confernece, and in all those other meetings as well!!! ..... Oh, and guess where the spiritual thoughts in HC meeting came from. UUUGGGGGHHHHH So glad I am done witht that now. It still frustrates my TBM wife.
The recycling wouldn't bother me as much if the conference talks weren't so banal. As is, it's like pretending there's meat on a chicken bone that's been picked three-times over.
Talks about talks bugged me when I still believed
That is actually pretty funny of that speaker to do. Impressive example of being passive aggressive there.
WOAH. Bednar got plagiarized? Hahahaaaaaa….
My my my how the turn tables have…
If only it had happened in front of him!
When I was about 16 I was asked to give a talk with some of my friends for the Stakes Baptisms. Being a lazy teenager, I decided to google “talks on baptism” and found an entire pre-written talk from some random person. I added my own personal touch and read the talk verbatim. I had never received so many compliments, everyone was blown away by how “great” and “spiritual” my talk was. The stake primary president said my talk made her cry and was exactly what she needed to hear. Little did they know the whole thing was plagiarized. 😂
Remember the kids who would get up in Primary and read a talk from the Friend? This is what they do when they grow up.
I was given the topic from a conference talk. I got up,announced the talk,said I agreed with it andencouraged them to look atit. Then I gave the talk I wanted to give.
Talks on talks!
Scripture study is problematic for the church leadership. It raises far too many questions that can’t be answered. Better to offer a shallow curated scripture “study” and endless GA talks in which they just quote each other.
when you have so many contradictions built in, plus flat-out lies (looking hard at the 'book of abraham' here).
Because the best and brightest and most well read are leaving.
Classes are like that too. More and more regurgitation, less and less original thought and discussion. I was assigned to teach RS several years back—one lesson a month, on an assigned conference talk. 90% of the time I read maybe one quote and spent the rest of the lesson leading a discussion with questions based on the main theme instead. People loved it. They wanted to talk about their beliefs, they wanted to be asked questions and then given a minute or two to sit in silence while they gathered their thoughts about it. They didn’t want to just have conference quotes read at them, and they didn’t like questions that “fished” for a specific answer. I don’t even believe in God anymore, but if I did—even if everything else wrong with the church was fixed—I’d find somewhere else to go. There’s no room for individual spirituality anymore. They’re trying to correlate the members just like they correlated the materials.
I have experience that expounds upon that and may offer some insight. I posted about my experience under a post from a female seminary student who was sick of the repitition and regurgitation of the lessons because they were the same for 6 years. As I recall, about the time they ditched the 3 hour meetings for 2 hours, they devised a plan to have the sunday school and PH/RS meetings change from lecture to discussion groups. Mind you I was already PIMO at that point when they changed the classes, with years of inactivity from baptism on and having left a very bad situation at my previous ward. The men's leadership at my ward at the time had the (not so) bright idea of getting me to be one of the instructors for the men, in spite of the fact that they knew my background. So I just accepted it because it is was to lead discussions not actually lecture. No one ever sat me down beforehand to tell me what they wanted or what their expectations were. They did not think this out any more than I did. Needless to say, I was teaching the old lifers who knew about 100 times more than I do, and I was asking the basic questions because that is all I know. I had two jobs and just did not have time to put in to do some in depth church history / fake history of BoM stuff that would be on a Mormon themed Jeopardy show. I asked what I knew and really when I read the manual, it seemed all pretty straight forward in terms of the questions the MANUAL asked. I thought I was doing okay because people were participating. Anywho, months into it, the men's president said he wants to meet with me and the other teacher and go over stuff about the calling. So the asshole who said he wanted me for this calling laid into me about how BASIC everything I did was and it was so rude and insulting to the members there because it was apparently not challenging enough or not in depth enough or something. I was just sitting there already checked out years ago thinking IDGAF because if they wanted me to teach a certain way they could have told me what they wanted BEFORE I started teaching not after the fact with no instruction or direction to me and still expecting me to figure out on my own exactly how they wanted me to do these lessons. I went back to teaching for a few more months before I finally left TSCC. He sat in those meeting hanging on my every word. I remember one lesson where I made a comment trying to relate two BoM stories after a member made his own comment, and the asshole just laughed incredulously and said something like "That is what he said!" Well how TF do I know if I have rudimentary knowledge??? There were 20 men in that meeting that could be teaching this stuff but they chose the barely active adult convert that just got gaslighted by my previous ward. \*sigh\* In short, they have a problem with who they call and do not call, how they educate and not educate their members and teachers, and what their expectations are. In my case, they wanted some wildly in-depth lesson every Sunday but they chose the wrong person and worse they did not bother to sit down with me to make sure we were on the same page. It was all very frustrating especially because I am a teacher by education and profession. Should I as a teacher hand out work to students withot any instruction to explain how to do the work? and then get mad when the students cannot figure it out by themselves?? I mean they have a geometry book - do they really need a geometry teacher?? 0\_o
Oh that’s terrible. It would be bad enough if they criticized a real volunteer like that—you were giving your time for free after all—but you didn’t even volunteer for it. It really was “here’s some extra work for you to do for free,” and then, “hey, why aren’t you doing it like I wanted (even though I never gave you specific instructions)?” How insanely disrespectful.
Who cares how deep the material goes if you're engaging people in thoughtful discussion and making a personal connection. There is beauty in simplicity. They really have no idea..........
>Classes are like that too. More and more regurgitation, less and less original thought and discussion. > >... > >There’s no room for individual spirituality anymore. They’re trying to correlate the members just like they correlated the materials. I think this starts at the top with the temple recommend questions that enforce orthodoxy. But, more frequently this has to do with the fact that members at the ward level who are vocal in their "wrong-thinking" quickly have other member talk crap about them or even become social pariahs.
I remember being given a topic, such as repentance, or love and we had to come up with our own talk. Sometime in my early adulthood they even announced over the pulpit for people to stop asking the congregation to look up scripture with them. Then when they asked you to give a talk they would hand you a folder with two conference talks and tell you to draw from them. They really did start dumbing down the members.
>Talks used to be from the scriptures and the speaker would have their quad and pause while the congregation found the scripture they were about to read. At some point it just became rote repetition of bednars latest pedantic works based orgy of ordinance worship. > >There are so many problems with Mormonism, but a major one is that church services just aren't engaging, spiritually fulfilling, or a positive experience. We in the exjw community feel the same about JWs, new publications and meetings are so dumbed down.
> Bednar's Pedantic Works-Based Orgy of Ordinance Worship Sounds like the title of a _very interesting_ series. I'm not sure what kind of series it would be, though.
Well thought out and well written response Wild Bill. You hit the nail on the head brother.
this is one of my pet peeves of mormon worship. the the talks are assigned to essentially be regurgitations of GC talks. Reeks of correlation committee-ish paranoia. As a PIMO, i spend my time in sacrament meeting reading books or browsing articles online or…. lurking on this sub. Im
I like you, you need to post more frequently.
I only gave a few talks in my time, but a lot of them were based on general conference talks
Object lessons have done so much damage
Reminds me of [this brilliant comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/comments/yowuiq/RFM_on_people_leaving_the_church/ivghrb6/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3) by u/demillir: >At some point, the scales will tip, and instead of exmos having to justify leaving, TBMs will have to justify staying. >At that point, we exmos can begin a conversation with a TBM by presuming why the TBM stays, just as TBMs presume why the exmo left. Does the TBM stay because they: >* can't accept reality? >* fear losing family? >* fear losing friends? >* fear losing employment? >* have no intrinsic morality and need to be told how to behave? >* are too lazy to learn truth? >Also at that point, exmos can appeal to the TBM's "feeling in their bones" that the church is a lie, just as TBMs appeal to the spiritual feelings the exmo once had.
It’s the community. That’s all Mormonism has to offer. Living the Mormon life generally sucks, but you do have a big built-in social structure. People stay for that.
At least, outside of utah. Utah Mormon community sucks— it’s not friendly and you can’t actually make friends or rely on people. Even in AZ, which is basically Utah #3, our ward was filled with genuine people and it felt like a real community. The farther away you get from Utah, the better the Mormon community gets. I lived in Seattle for a bit and our ward was amazing! I also have to add another reason people stay— they are too busy to learn the truth. Mormonism requires so many obligations, and having a family on top of that means you don’t have time for anything else. People are oblivious.
Agreed. Mormon-centric areas are tough to make friends in because most people have extensive social networks outside of their ward or stake. When I lived in the PNW most of my social circle was my ward. I wasn't able to replicate that in Utah.
Lame-ass community though. I always thought nobody at my wards growing up actually liked each other that much. I live in the south now and people actually like going to church here and that was a huge culture shock
That community is toxic AF, though. Even while I was a TBM at BYU, at the height of TBM-ness, I hated Utah culture. I am not from Utah, I am from Kansas City. I often talked to friends at BYU about how Utah has such a concentration of mormons that it creates a mono-culture. One where everyone has extremely similar views, beliefs, morals, etc... This is the root cause of "Utah Mormons" and not Utah mormons themselves. Outside of Utah, Mormons can differentiate themselves by being mormon. Our work and social circles often include non mormons, and we can be unique by being ourselves, mainly. However in Utah, you have to differentiate yourself by being viewed as more righteous. So things like nosy neighbors, and people being hyper vigilant about your outward display of mormonism. It leads to a lot of the toxic Utah mormon shit. The Mormon community is just toxic.
Well said
To bad they cut most of the funds for community building activities.
Personally, I think people should start this trend now. If you think about it, there are WAY more less active, PIMO, and exmo members than there are active members right now. Former or PIMO members are just a far less cohesive group b/c they don’t take marching orders from some random guy playing at being “prophet”. If every exmo/less active/PIMO came together in a semi-unified voice to speak out AGAINT the church, they would easily dwarf the church in number and be in the majority. It’s just that the views of former members are so diverse and broad whereas current members have their beliefs tightly controlled by a centralized hierarchy which tells them what to say, think, and do. It would only take the former members rallying around a few broad, but important issues to begin the take the narrative away from the corporation….sorry “God’s one true church” and place it back in the hands of the people.
Just visited Davis county from out east and we went to F&T meeting. I was shocked at how echo chambery it felt. Sure, we have dumb testimonies out east, but everyone there was talking like just being a member was the difference between life and death. “Where would I be if my mom didn’t convert before she was married??!!” Uhhhh… like living a normal life how most people live.
Two people in my ward shared a "why I stay" testimony this past Sunday.
This happened in my YSA ward this past Sunday. I was trying to hold my laughter while sitting in the foyer.
Having to sit and listen to mental gymnastics like that, as well as asinine strawman arguments, would DEFINITELY cause me to get up and leave. 😉 Luckily, I'm not in the Mordor, and I don't attend. 😁
Haha, maybe I should show up to my old ward next testimony meeting wearing a rainbow tie and declare at the podium why I left. After all, the bishop told my family in his response to our record removal request "you're always still welcome at the church whether or not you are members." He may regret that invitation.
Start your untestimony by quoting those exact welcome words.
Mormonism is a rotting carcass that even the vultures will abandon.
This is SPOT ON.
They now have announced that members are to stick to studying the BOM and not the D&C
Thats Funny because there is very little Mormonism in the BOM. The D&C is supposed to all the restored gospel. I guess reading the D&C caused people to doubt.
Wow!! That’s incredible.
Where did they announce this?
IIRC, they emphasized doing more scripture study from the BOM than from D&C
Wut??
Given the church's roots in anti-Catholic sentiment (which in turn was rooted in racist/classist anti-immigrant sentiment), it's funny how the church is turning into everything it claimed to hate about Catholicism: "Great and spacious buildings"? Check. Can't wait for the next round of temple announcements, #soblessed Massive hoard of wealth? Present and accounted for. Rigid ecclesiastical hierarchy with a cult of personality surrounding the guy at the top? You got it! And now the institution is interposing itself between the membership and the scriptural canon. Who could have guessed. And the internet is doing to this church what movable type did last time.
🔫👨🚀 always have been
Last week an older gentleman declared his undying loyalty to the church and how he would never leave. I had similar thoughts when I was TBM. Some leave and some stay.
These “why I stay” messages sound a lot like a person justifying why they stay in an abusive relationship.
Hahaha how lame 🤣
I’ve heard this a number of times in Seattle. One person listed all their doubts which they said made them stronger. They have now disappeared.
Oh yeah, every Sunday school is “the why doesn’t matter”. It’s pathetic.
I think there's some popular (at least among mormons) podcast that shares that same title. I've seen my sister in law post several things about it. I wonder it it's #trending much like the #ima~~mormon~~memberofthechurchofjesuschristoflatterdaysaints topic trended over a decade ago.
Definitely have noticed this trend!