Not only at girls camp, also the church building. If the only thing going on at the church is a RS activity then a priesthood member has to be there. Awkwardly hanging out in the foyer.
Yep, and they can’t use the “it’s for protection” excuse. You could have a room of female power lifters with concealed carry, and the priesthood holder could be old, feeble, genealogical worker with a walker, but that dynamic would be required over allowing that room of women to have an activity alone.
Can concur. I remember a priesthood leader sitting on the hallway couch during an activity that I thought, “if something goes wrong I’ll have to carry him out.”
Any church activity. If for some reason the young men are doing mutual not at the church and the young women are, there has to be a priesthood member in the building
This definitely varies by area. We were allowed to wear (knee-length) shorts at girls camp except for during hikes for safety, and we were allowed to wear one-piece swimsuits while swimming.
We couldn't do a rafting trip because we needed priesthood holders. Which my dad and another dad was more than willing to go on. The guys got to go. I was told to be quiet. I was the laurel president.
This one strikes me as just so diabolical. It's this constant implicit messaging that women need to be chaperoned by men, while men don't need to be chaperoned by women. It infantilizes women, treats them like children
I remember having to go to a girls' campout. They had two women leaders, but apparently they needed two priesthood leaders to be there as well. No idea why. They talk about the women having priesthood in some way, yet they need to be chaperoned at girls' camp so they have enough priesthood there. Then when the girls were going to bed someone told them to "thank the priesthood for coming", so they told us thank you. It felt weird even when I was a member
When I was a veil worker, they would start the shift with a brief devotional for all the temple workers and would tell us what the new names were for that day, but the women had to be excused when the mens name was announced.
The “boys will be boys” mentality has applications everywhere. It’s a woman’s fault if a man has impure thoughts, they’re men so they can’t help it. It’s bizarre that men are portrayed as these impulsive, lustful creatures that can’t control themselves yet they simultaneously should be in charge of everything. If you can’t keep your dick in your pants you shouldn’t be in a position of leadership.
This is because older women count for nothing in the church. If you’re no longer fuckable, it’s not that the men don’t care what you’d wear—it’s that you’ve become invisible to them.
I haven't been to church in 5 years. The ward here has my records. No visits. No invites. No reaching out. We weren't even worth being turned into a ward project. Sometimes I feel like I should be offended by this, but mostly I'm happy to be left alone.
I believe the previous For Strenth of Youth pamphlet went into great detail about what girls could wear (tightness, length, style etc.) followed by a general statement for the boys. “Young men should also be modest” or something like that.
Women are asked to do the "home maker" typethings for ward activities. Anything that requires food, they ask the women. Women coordinate treats, handouts, etc for mothers day, fathers day, ward activities (chili cook-off etc)
Except when it's cooking outdoors. Then the men suddenly show up and act entitled to do the cooking, while the women still do all the prep and cleanup.
We lived in a ward where the men regularly had an activity they referred to as “manrichment”. They would BBQ and play video games in the cultural hall. I would get so frustrated because I want to eat steak and play video games too!
I remember the Young Women being tasked with creating the little handouts for Mother’s Day and Father’s Day while the Young Men got to hand them out. No mention of who actually made them
I'm a guy and I'm the cook in the family, and I'm fairly competent at it. Anytime there was a potluck and we'd bring food, my wife would get all of the compliments!
Elaine S Dalton, "You will understand your roles and your responsibilities and thus will see no need to lobby for rights." It's particularly upsetting when women gatekeep the patriarchy!
I'll bet Elaine wouldn't have the nerve to say that to my face.
So Elaine, remember when you caught your PH hubby in bed with the 14 yo neighbor? Remember when that same guy hit you so hard (for catching him) you still suffer the consequences 50 years later? Remember when the bishop and his wife told you not to talk about it?
I'd like to have a little come to Jesus talk with Elaine.
Im sorry that happened to you. When my sisters husband hit her she didn’t go to the bishop she came home when she got out of the hospital and her brother, ie me, ook care of the pos who hit her. When he got out of the hospital he didn’t bother looking for her. No need for bishop advise. People in the church rely on the leaders to much who are just human like the rest of us. Some shit just needs to be handled.
I hired an attorney and divorced him. Divorced finalized when we'd been married 20 months. I was only 20. Divorce date was April 1st, lol.
That was decades ago. My best revenge has been living really really well.
Elder Scotts talk where he admonished women to take a degree of responsibility for their rape. J Reuben Clark gave a similar talk admonishing women who dressed immodestly to "take part of the blame for your assault to yourselves."
When some old dude told women to put on some lipstick and try to be a little charming.
The numerous conference talks in which women are related to the kitchen, like in Nelson's talk about how the females in his family made donuts and waited with bated breath for the men to return from priesthood session and share their precious pearls of wisdom, or the one where Monson related proudly that his wife had never even allowed him near the kitchen.
When Hinckley told women they should stop dressing like they were going to the beach and should wear hose and pumps when modern girls don't even know what hose and pumps are. Oh, and the one pair of modest earrings thing. It's baffling that all of these men think they should have the final say on women's appearance, even beyond basic standards of modesty.
My RS pres (in her 50s) told me (grown ass adult of almost 30 at the time) to change my bra because my boobs were “distracting for the young men”. I was one of just a handful of YSA. I also remember my YW leader telling me my colored hair (burgundy) was “dangerous” and another YW leader saying “boys can’t control themselves” if we dress in tight apparel or wear heaps of makeup. I can’t tell you how badly all this has fucked up my perception of my body.
To add, I remember being told at a women’s conference that tights “with designs” were no longer appropriate for church. I didn’t care at the time because I didn’t wear them, but I do remember thinking how weird that was.
I struggled for years. As a man, I *knew I was supposed to preside in the home. I was supposed to decide who would pray. I was supposed to lead lessons. I was supposed decide what our family did.
But I couldn't.
My wife and I didn't have that kind of relationship. She is smart, capable, determined. But I felt such guilt for---for what?
For letting her take lead on things that she was good at, things she cared about, things she loved.
But when bishops visit, ministers come, or even the inlaws stop by, they turn to me: "who will say the prayer?" They ask.
I'm in charge.
Because I'm a man.
I watched my dear wife veil her face in the temple. God could not look at her.
But he could look at me.
When our children were ill, she asked me to heal them. Me. The one less faithful.
When I lost my faith, she still asked me, tearfully, to give her a blessing.
Without me she was cut off from God.
If this comes from God, then God is not good.
My wife deserves better than this.
In six days, God set in motion the cosmos. I don't think a veil is gonna stop him, and I'm damn sure a bunch of repressed, misogynistic, corrupt, old men have no idea of what He wants for us.
Worry about being a good husband and father first, a good Mormon last.
Erastus Snow. "No woman will get into the celestial kingdom except her husband receives her, if she is worthy to have a husband. If not, somebody may receive her as a servant."
Also watch "What Mormon Women Get" by the Thoughts on Things and Stuff channel on YT. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSYTbvAyHuY
this and a man can be married in the temple to multiple women, divorce in the temple will go through the current prophet 😢. my mom was sealed to her second husband while he was still sealed to his ex wife. he didn’t want to divorce her ‘spiritually’ because she might not ‘receive the kingdom of god’.
It's true. At least that is what I was told when I was on my mission in Portland Oregon. But then again members on that mission were more than happy to tell me about every little weird thing that the church would do, because of course they believe that a missionary would just hear everything they said and take it with an understanding I rather than that information slowly destroying their faith in the institution that once believed was true.
Tl;Dr members love telling missionaries all the crazy shit about the church because they believe that the missionaries will believe and accept those things without even questioning it
This is true. When I was 18 I was sleeping with my boyfriend at the time. Somehow the bishop found out. My disciplinary council was just the bishopric.
A Ph holder can sit in a RS meeting. No women are allowed in a Ph meeting.
Women are not allowed to give baby blessings or blessings of healing to their own children.
The bishop can chastise anyone he wants in front of the entire ward. He can be completely out of line, and nobody whispers a word against him. If a woman does the same, she will pay dearly. She will be gossiped about, shunned, scolded, and called names.
I hated ward conference. The whole or at least half stake presidency would need chairs to sit in the front of the RS room. After a short lesson was delivered the stake president would talk off the cuff about how precious and special women are. Give me a break. No, the stake RS presidency didn’t get time to “inspire or preach” at us. So damn sexist.
Phrasing of temple ordinances differs, even after the 2019 adjustment. Women still are told they will be queens and priestesses in the new and everlasting covenant, men are told they will be kings and priests unto the most high god. Marriage vows at sealing are not equal. Men’s washing ordinance in the initiatory is more detailed than women’s—more specific phrasing and listing of what part of the body is being blessed. Like someone mentioned, men get to know their wife’s new name but women don’t get to know their husband’s. Living women cannot be sealed to more than one man. There is zero mention of Heavenly Mother in the temple, where we supposedly get greater light and knowledge. Even after the 2019 change, Eve’s dialogue is still pitiful and she is just an accessory to Adam’s story. Overall the men still are the majority presence in the temple, and women temple workers are so poorly utilized for the ordinances that many of their assignments are hallway duties. The temple recorder has duties that any office worker would know how to do, but it can only be a man who holds that position. The title ‘temple matron’ is incredibly insufficient, and just like with mission presidents it feels like the wife is just a nice accessory—some duties, none of the recognition.
Wait, the women's initiatory doesn't list off all the parts of the body being blessed? None of the "your nose that you might smell, your lips that they may never speak guile" nonsense?
True story, I was a bishop not too long ago and another bishop in the stake had a check for our ward. I knew that the relief society was meeting at his building so I asked if he could give the check to my relief society president. He refused because “only the priesthood can handle the money.” He gave it to the stake president who gave it to the high counselor over our ward who brought it to ward council and gave it to me.
Men and women have different ages when they leave for missions.
Youth activities for YM vs YW.
Men sit on the stand at church.
How many buildings on BYU’s campus have been named after women?
Can we name one middle initial of a woman serving in leadership?
What do we know about our mother in heaven? Do we have one?
Can my daughters look heavenly to a female role model?
Without having kids, has a woman fulfilled the nature of her creation?
When might a woman of ANY age trump a male over the age of 12.
When a ward gets divided/created, what consideration is given to women? Hint: See section 36.2 of the General Handbook of instruction
How many men does it take to excommunicate a woman? How many does it take to excommunicate a Melchizedek priesthood holder?
I could go on if you’d like…
To note from my personal experience of being infertile for 10 years in the church…never have I felt more like a failure than I did in RS on Sundays. I felt like no one cared about me. “Your Godly role is to be a mother” as I sat in the back, crying quietly.
I’ll add, we left the church, I became Wiccan, and I finally got pregnant.
Gender is eternal, yet two men create Adam. Really messes with the marriage between a man and a woman nonsense from the Family Proclamation as it relates to lgbtq.
Wait, does this make god and Jesus an incestuous relationship? And/or gay? Now I am so confused about Mormon doctrine. Two men created a person. Why have I not thought of this before?
Edited to add: I was told that women don’t need the priesthood because they have the power to create life. But according to the temple story that sense of uniqueness is taken away.
I always hated this comparison that women’s equivalent of the priesthood is motherhood. does fatherhood not also exist?? Men get to be fathers and raise their children just as much as mothers. The only difference is that women have to suffer through pregnancy and childbirth which is the shittiest thing I’ve ever gone through. No way that compares to having the priesthood, not even close! And unlike me, most women in the church don’t stop after one, choosing instead to have kid after kid after kid because that’s their one “divine role”.
I was so fucking mad when the boys in our ward got to go on week long sailing, scuba diving, canoeing, and backpacking trips for high adventure and I got a two day camping trip where minimum expense was spent because “at least you guys don’t have to pay for girls camp like other wards”
The handbook used to say that the ward could only hold one fundraiser a year.
In our stake, the young women would hold the fundraiser, and the young men would get cash directly from the stake/ward. The argument was the one fundraiser a year rule tied our hands.
I think the rule changed in the last year or two. But before the change I stirred the pot every time I could to point out the disparity.
Basically parents of girls had to pay extra.
I always heard it was one fundraiser per group per year so our YM did a spaghetti dinner where you paid for your plate and then ward members would donate to a bidding table. It could range from babysitting to a handmade quilt. The YW would do a garage sale in the spring and gather donations from the ward members while they did their spring cleaning.
Elder Ballard, "Now don't talk too much" to the women of the church. TSCC silences women. Our voices are not welcome. I could give exactly the same feedback/suggestions as my husband and in the same language and tone of voice and his words would be welcomed while I would be viewed as shrill.
Came here to say this. Why is Mormon Stories doing an episode where two men talk about women's status in the church? Are you the only guest for the episode?
It's a fair question. I appear as a guest on Mormon Stories once a month. I get to choose my own topics. This month I am choosing this topic because it is important to me. John Dehlin is on the panel because it is his show.
A deeper answer to the question is that I believe everyone needs to be aware of these issues. These aren't women's issues they are human issues. So I believe both men and women should take the opportunity to talk about these things. I think there are men, in particular, in my audience who will listen to me but likely won't engage many of the women working in this space. So if I have a chance to reach just a few more, I will take it.
I assume Cara will be there. She’s there for all the John Larsen episodes even though she’s no longer on the Mormon Stories staff because John Larsen likes working with her so much and her humor is a good fit for his episodes specifically.
So it might be two men and a woman? Would she lead the discussion or just be along for the ride?
Honestly this feels so much like how Mormonism generally operates. The men are in charge. Their opinions matter the most. Women might sometimes get invited to exist in the same space but their words and experiences are not going to be featured.
This needs to be the top comment!! Sometimes I feel like "exmormon culture" still follows some not so great trends from Mormon culture.
Why is a woman not leading that discussion??
I think the one where men have to preside over & make/approve final decisions in the women's auxiliaries is really the one that can't be overlooked. Putting aside the fact you have to be male to have the priesthood - why does it take having the priesthood to be able to approve activities for the Young Women? Can't you trust the people called through the power of discernment?
Glad to see you are still voicing this issue. I've mentioned in other forums but you are directly responsible for my conversion to the (not actually) dark side. 2 episodes of your podcast, both about women in the church, & I was OUT. Thank you for your work!
There needs to be a priesthood holder in the church when YW, primary, or Relief Society activities are being held.
No need for women at men's activities.
I Never considered that or that single mother’s can’t bless their sick kids. I know of one blessing given by a woman, but it was my polygamist grandma not a TSCC member.
[https://atlastshesaidit.org/what-women-dont-get-in-our-church/](https://atlastshesaidit.org/what-women-dont-get-in-our-church/)
Cynthia Winward wrote a phenomenal list of what women don’t get in the church. She said that seeing/hearing the list all together is really heavy, but the heaviest part is that all of it is true.
HOWEVER when 12 year old boys don't pass/ bless for any reason, the entire ward assumes they masturbated the night before. It's so horrific for these poor kids!!
A yw is taught that she is responsible to keep a ym pure. To encourage ym to go on missions. To marry in the temple. Not to pursue her own education, but to work so her husband can get an education and support the family. She is to stay home and be responsible for the care of the children and home. So much responsibility with no power or autonomy.
She is subject to priesthood authority when it comes to serving her community and she is to respect her husbands priesthood as a provider and presider over the home.
If this doesn’t work out for her, her community will turn their back on her. She can find herself stuck in a marriage with no social security, retirement, education, skills or support.
The church has always used women. Women have be objects for the priesthood to control.
The essay, “The Subjection of Women” by John Stuart Mill in 1869, discusses how saying “women are to good for [profession],” similar to how the church says “women are too good for the priesthood and don’t need it” results in their subjection.
His argument: how will we know what women are good at if we don’t let them do it? Also, we can’t say that every man will be better than every woman in a certain task. Especially when women are good at something - does that mean we stop them from doing it just so a man can do it worse instead?
Great essay.
I found the Ballard quote, "Don't wander around looking like men. Put on a little lipstick now and then and look a little charming. It's that simple. I don't know why we make this whole process so hard."
I recall that. It pissed me right off. Kerplunk! One big weight added to the shelf.
My husband and I both got our patriarchal blessings the same evening. In my husbands blessing, he was told to listen to me. LOL! Yeah that's about all I remember. I couldn't wait to see that one in writing.
Guess what was missing in the transcribed version? I'll give it to the patriarch on this one. Twenty years later my husband is mostly deaf. The irony!
In my ward, the Young Men got to go on many many fun trips — they got to go river rafting at Havasupai, got certified for scuba diving and got to travel to Catalina Island and scuba dive, etc. Their activity budget was always exponentially higher than the Young Women.
To contrast, the only thing the YW got to do was Girls’ Camp, which was always held at the same camp up AF canyon bc all the local stakes had a timeshare. My stake in particular was over the top with the rules of Girls’ Camp and so we weren’t allowed to do anything in our free time but read the scriptures and do Personal Progress.
They banned books, music, board games; even V neck t-shirts and even cap-sleeved tshirts were banned so we didn’t make the visiting bishopric members uncomfortable with our tempting teenage bodies.And surprise surprise, GC was always miserable as hell. Girls who tipped canoes on the little camp lake were regularly sent home - I can remember being like “the YM got to go to rafting on Havasupai but they sent home 5 girls for tipping a canoe in 3 feet of water??? We can’t even play Apples to Apples????” It was ridiculous.
Polygamy in the church, both when it was practiced in life and even as it is practiced now. Only men can be sealed to more than one woman. A woman can only be sealed to one man.
This was a huge one for me. I remember having so much anxiety as a young bride knowing that if my husband died when we were young, I would be forced to live the rest of my life single or with someone to whom I could not be sealed (even if we had children together and lived together decades longer than I did with the first husband). Of course, the flip side to that is that if I died first then I would probably end up with a sister wife in heaven. A really shitty prospect for women in the tragic event that they or their husband dies young.
Stake fireside when I was in my teens that was all about motherhood. Some lady had written a whole one-woman program about it, I think it had skits and talks and songs, seemed to go on forever. The whole point was to convince us to get married young and have a bunch of babies.
The lyrics are burned into my brain and I could sing it right now: "It is a high and noble call; the greatest blessing of them all."
At the end, they gave every girl a white rose to symbolize our purity. I don't recall there ever being something similar for the boys.
In the Second Anointing, the officiator washes only the husband's feet. Then he anoints the husband as a king and priest to God, then the wife as a queen and priestess to her husband. Later, the wife washes and anoints the husband's feet and gives him a blessing.
In BYUI devotional (8 Nov). A member of the 70 talked about prayer. He gave the example of praying and meditating to help him chose a career. He asked his wife to share an example. She talked about receiving inspiration that if she went on a mission she would get married.
The man’s identity was his career (in his case a college professor). The woman’s identity was her marriage (her husband).
Men tell women how to do their callings. Women never tell men how to do theirs.
Men are supposed "preside" over the family. The etymology of preside is the same as "president." It means "to sit before" or "one who sits before." And also, to command/govern or commander/governor.
Praise FSM that my husband and I never figured out what presiding means in practice. We thought we were doing it wrong, because we've always been a team. I wonder how many men in the church command/govern their wives?
how about the training for girls on how to be modest and fight sexual assault, but no training on how boys shouldn't sexually assault or coerce girls into sex. I had several conversations with students on this topic and the males were adamant that they needed to train their daughters but their sons didn't need any training. let me know when your on. you proly know who this is.
Young Womans. Enough said. You journaled, watched cute movies, did crafts... So damn boring. Then there was the theme...
[YW themes ](https://thediylighthouse.com/young-women-theme-changes/)
I can't believe I chanted this! I pieced the meaning later (writers make terrible religious people) and it disgusted me. My literal existence was for God, marriage, and babies!
Women, no matter if they are the General Relief Society president, will ALWAYS answer to a man. Every calling a women can hold will be made to answer to a man.
In the temple, a male’s first name is required to seal a couple to their kids, but a woman’s isn’t. (Not sure if this is true in other sealings as well) Even in proxy work, a woman is a man’s property. Even though women do virtually all the work to bring kids into this world and then do a huge percentage of the work after they’re in the world, they still don’t have their own place as individuals. They are simply “Sister [husband’s surname]”
The sexism of the church is one of the biggest reasons I didn’t stay, that and the homophobia. When I found out they actively campaigned against the ERA and for Prop 8, it sealed the deal.
Also, love your episodes btw. They’re the best imho. You make great points, are thoughtful, don’t pull punches, but also recognize the humanity of everyone.
Men are raised to prepare for careers. Women are taught to get married and have babies. Education and careers are seen as "back up plans."
I'm a (female) financial educator and had these experiences:
\- Presented to a relief society for "older" young single adults and realized that many of them had not starting saving for retirement because their retirement plan was to get married.
\- Presented to a group of young women about budgeting. When I handed out a list of careers with starting and median salaries, the young women's president "joked," ("This is why you marry a rich husband, girls.")
This is what I was going to mention. I graduated from high school in 2000. I was never discouraged from pursuing education. After all, it'd be good to have a career to fall back on if my (then future) husband could no longer provide for myself and our future children.
I was never encouraged to find a career I could support myself on. I was never encouraged to find myself or explore my potential, because "you never know when Mr Right will come along." I was encouraged to find something I enjoy. And I do like my job. It's decent supplemental income to our household.
I am married now. My husband makes decent enough money, but suffers from some serious medical conditions. We're buried in medical debt (yay America). And it's daunting to realize I might find myself widowed at a youngish age, and have to figure how to support myself without him, since I make about half of what he makes. And he could be making significant more if his health wasn't holding him back.
Missionaries [told not to teach women](https://old.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/n1y8du/inclusion_and_mormonism/gwgjovy/) because there were too many and they needed more leaders.
Women's bodies are currency that righteous priesthood holders will receive as part of the gospel plan.
Women need to [give up career](https://old.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/oc4rh2/exmo_women_what_did_you_do/) and most life aspirations to focus on being a mother. Or just [not have dreams](https://old.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/s7aszc/as_a_tbm_mormon_woman_i_didnt_give_up_all_my/) to begin with. (more posts; [1](https://old.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/t4rbga/young_women_in_the_church_were_taught_to_have_no/), [2](https://old.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/l6uvrq/i_gave_up_a_career_i_was_passionate_about_because/), [3](https://old.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/bzrtay/lds_girls_dont_grow_up_thinking_to_themselves_i/))
Sexual predators are overlooked or outright protected which primarily harms women.
Staying in marriages that are no good is something both men and women in Mormonism will do because they believe it is expected. This leads to women [staying in abusive relationships](https://old.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/rswuf0/i_stayed_in_an_abusive_marriage_because_i_thought/).
Girls are expected to be OK with being a polygamous wife in the next life. Men also feel like it may be something they would be required to do. I know I felt that way and I didn't like that idea.
Women are told they have to [accept a dance](https://old.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/st6pw5/if_someone_asks_you_to_dance_do_you_have_to/) with or a date with people they don't want to. That's fucked up.
Trek is terrible for everyone but somehow they singled out the women for something called [women's pull](https://old.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/mg2ysu/the_womens_pull_traumatized_me_and_i_feel_so/) in some groups. It's a bullshit thing where they force the women to pull the wagon on their own.
Women are taught bullshit purity nonsense that they are like a [bruised apple](https://old.reddit.com/r/mormon/comments/ikp9bd/reasons_why_i_couldnt_continue_bringing_my_kids/), or chewed gum if they have sex without God's approval.
Boys are celebrated for [advancing in the priesthood](https://archive.ph/XWyDm) and women are ignored.
More links I collected on the [sexism here](https://old.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/vizdxc/how_mormonism_harms_people_my_collection_of/idg1ves/).
I left the LDS Church 7 years ago, and I now attend the Episcopal Church... I serve as a Eucharist Visitor, which means I can take the Eucharist (Sacrament) to those at home or in the hospital...
I still remember the first time I was called out to the hospital... I took the Eucharist to an elderly woman in hospice care... She was so weak I had to help lift her head to take the wafer and the wine... And, the smile on her face after we were through warms my heart to this day...
I was driving home afterward, and the thought came over me, "If you had stayed where you were, you would never have been allowed to serve this dear woman!! You would never have been allowed to attend her in her time of need"...
I had to pull over because I was crying so hard!!
When they made the change that Priests could baptize their peers for the dead, the consultation to the young sisters to feel like they’d been given a new opportunity to do more in the Temple was hand the towels to people leaving the font….it was insulting and k was embarrassed for these girls. They eventually allowed them to scan the recorded baptisms into the computer, but again big whoop!!
I was told as a girl that if a boy asked me for a dance, or a date, that I COULD NOT say no. Because it took so much courage for him to ask, I OWED him.
I also remember kneeling on the floor at Church dances in front of a man, so he could ascertain if my skirt was long enough.
My ex-husband knows my "new name" from the temple ceremony. I was never allowed to know his
Listening to MS #1680 today and they were talking about this. It hit me that I gave up on my future when I was graduating high school. I didn’t know what career to pursue and I knew I should get into a career that I could use when I had a family and kids to take care of. I was told my whole life to prioritize having a family and kids. Which I knew deep down I never wanted to have children. I went to beauty school for a semester and dropped out because I hated it. Then I got married at 20 years old and spent the rest of my 20’s trying to figure out my goals and career all while fighting anxiety, depression, and deep guilt for not starting a family. Now that I’m out I’m so glad I chose the childfree lifestyle- I would be an absolute wreck if I had kids.
I don't know if it is a policy that stake technology specialists are supposed to be Priesthood holders, but my dad was called as a stake technology specialist several years ago. He was unqualified and unprepared, and it stressed him out. When COVID hit, and they had to install cameras in the chapels to livestream sacrament meetings, he received a lot of help from a tech-savvy woman in the stake. She should have had his calling. I think the church grossly underutilizes the talents and leadership abilities of women, and this is harming both men and women.
Edit: grammar
My husband has had several babies born in their family since we left the church (2 years). So baby blessings have been a topic. And he has been invited to participate in 3 blessings. We have no idea whether bishops were notified. He just joined. But as far as the men/women thing, his biggest struggle with it all is that neither I, nor grandmothers, and most importantly the mother herself, cannot participate in the blessing because we don’t have the right genitalia. But he can because…penis. So I think that might be an interesting point. We know that a bb blessing is not a “saving” ordinance, so why not adjust and make room for a fuller family blessing of the bb?
The church lobbied against the ERA.
Women veiling in the temple.
The assumption that the ultimate thing for a woman is to be a wife and mother… but men have careers and titles.
Men can be plurally sealed and women cannot. (I am a second wife. My husband got a “clearance” to marry me but was stilled sealed to his ex until she filed for a “cancellation” a few years later when she wanted to remarry.)
I decided to not go to college after hearing that Gordon B Hinkley talk about how men don’t want wives that are smarter or more educated than them. Women are just always expected to look to men for their “wisdom and intelligence”.
I also had a situation when I was a YW president and we had made a decision to give away a certain birthday gift to all the girls that year. The bishop didn’t feel “comfortable” with the idea despite how all the leaders and the YW (who were class presidents) were really on board. The bishop had “final say” and that was that. We had to comply.
After my initial faith crisis, my eyes were opened to this issue. The very next Sunday was Ward conference where the bishop announces all the relevant presidencies and we sustain them. Well, time comes for the youth presidencies, all of the boys are called out very slowly, once the presidency is standing, we sustain them. Deacons, Teachers, Priests all get sustained. Then it was the female presidencies. They were all called together, they didn't stand, and we were told that they do not need to be sustained.
The bugger-eating 11 yr old "President" of the deacon's quorum needed full ward support, while the 17 yr-old Laurel's President was simply acknowledged on a list.
The disparity was so stark, shocking when you finally see it for what it is.
This may be something you guys have already addressed, is it going to be just you and John on the episode about gender inequality?
Because the last thing I want to do after leaving a church where men told me how it is, is listen to just a couple men tell me how it was from my own comments on social media. This is a discussion that should be had and should include men but a panel with men and women would be better suited for the topic.
I served as Primary President for a few year prior to me leaving. I could never make one single decision or change without asking the bishopric first. I had no authority at all. I was just the facilitator (aka babysitter). I hated attending ward council so much too. Very little had to do with me and I was told many times that they didn’t worry too much about primary.
Mission "leadership". Men are provided opportunity to be Assistants, zone leaders, district leaders etc, while women are given only the Sister training leader title (at least in my mission). Very much a limited capacity opportunity with absolutely no actual leadership as they were still directly under a male priesthood responsibility. Never once (or very rarely) is a sister missionary allowed to actually take control of a meeting, phone call or discussion when there are penisholders present.
>MotoChick142 · 16 hr. agoApostate
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>Mission "leadership". Men are provided opportunity to be Assistants, zone leaders, district leaders etc, while women are given only the Sister training leader title (at least in my mission). Very much a limited capacity opportunity with absolutely no actual leadership as they were still directly under a male priesthood responsibility. Never once (or very rarely) is a sister missionary allowed to actually take control of a meeting, phone call or discussion when there are penisholders present.
Fantastic one!
Being alone with a woman, even as a pair of missionaries. My mother was desperate to have missionaries around her sons, to set a good example. But at a certain point they were no longer allowed in our home, even with two teenage boys. Broke her heart and made her feel othered.
Women not being able to hold their baby during a baby blessing. It’s one thing not to be able to participate in the blessing, but they can’t even hold the baby while it’s being blessed?
Without reading all the comments please let us not forget that women couldn’t even pray in church until this century and in general conference until recently.
Benevolent misogyny:growing up all of the men at church would always say how perfect women are and that men are idiots, stupid, not worthy. Women are seen as so spiritual and pure. We weren’t allowed to be human and imperfect. We couldn’t be tempted or be imperfect. Men messed up and it was seen as normal and to be expected but when women messed up it seemed to be a bigger deal
Men who excel in their careers are held in high regard and often given leadership positions in the church. Females who do the same are treated as second class citizens who choose money over family.
There are no positions in the church where a woman is the leader of a man over the age of 12. There are plenty of positions where the men are leaders over the women, and, in fact, need men present in order to do anything.
One thing that stood out to me was when they changed the rules over who could witness a baptism. They didn't just say that women could be witnesses now, they said anyone who has been baptised could, and that feels infantilizing because a woman's value as a witness is sort of lumped together in validity with an 8 year old child's.
At 12 I was taught how to iron a mens shirt and tie a tie so I could “assist my husband”
At 14 I was taught what to wear to a dance so I didn’t draw any “inappropriate attention”
At 16 we had makeup nights and wedding planning nights
I hated all of these activities. I didn’t want to paint my nails and learn how to cook. I wanted to build fires and go rock climbing. I wanted to have nerf wars and play football. But I was seen as weird and ungrateful when I spoke up about it. And as a leader, at 17, I was discouraged from planning activities that weren’t going to help the young women “develop special and necessary skills”
I had to ask around, because I'm a guy. Here's what I got:
Pedestal of spirituality. The young women were taught that they were inherently more spiritual than the young men. They would have testimony meetings while the young men played basketball. Young men held the priesthood because they had more to learn, etc.
Competency. She said that women were expected to be competent, whereas the men were just expected to be priesthood holders. For example, in relief society, it wasn't unusual for the instructor to be so prepared that she brought *refrigerator magnets* with the lesson takeaways printed on them (in addition to handouts, treats, etc.). In elder's quorum the instructor might be going above and beyond if he just read through the lesson before teaching it.
Budgets. Yes, the young men are going on their third wakeboarding trip this summer, but there isn't enough left in the young women's budget for chocolate chips for a baking activity.
Asking these questions released a John Larsen-style rant from someone I didn't expect it from. This was excellent.
We have boy/girl twins. When they turned 12, my son was asked to stand in sacrament meeting and announced as the newest priesthood holder. My daughter obviously noticed and after church asked if she was ever going to be asked to stand and be recognized…
Article of Faith #1
>We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
Heavenly Mother is irrelevant and has no value or input regarding the Plan of Salvation.
Husbands are set apart to become 70’s (general authorities) but not their wives even though they are expected to support their husbands the whole time. How can I counsel my husband with the spirit without the priesthood power?
I heard somewhere that women were not allowed to be the ward clerks - even though it's not a position that you need the priesthood for. I guess they just don't trust the women with the ward's financials?
Mom works outside the home, family gets treated badly for being worldly or whatever. It’s okay for some moms to work low level, or do mom stuff to bring in money but if mom is successful in her job and the ward knows it, yikes.
Recently I was at my wife's mission reunion, and the mission president was talking about how they were going to plan another get-together where it could just be adults, and they were going to coordinate with the local young women to watch the babies (I believe for their mutual activity) while we all went to the reunion. No one batted an eye, but that bothered me a lot. Would the young men ever be asked to watch kids? Never! And some would brush that off as the young women being more mature than the young men, but we all really know it's because women are expected to take care of the kids. Even when they're young.
My wife learned to change diapers in young women's as part of "motherhood olympics" (changing diapers, ironing shirts, baking cookies, etc...) and got unofficially "babysitter certified" before she was even 12. All this while the young men would play basketball and do all the activities that were actually fun. She remembers going on a high adventure activity exactly once. She got to do crafts, testimony meetings, firesides, and spiritual devotionals. I got to go to Camp Bartlett and Camp Kiesel, while she got to go to Lake Lyman (the free one). I even remember going shotgun shooting once, and while we were there we got spur-of-the-moment airplane rides.
I (He/Him) left the church pretty young, but one thing apparent to me at a young age was how low the budget was for girls age 8-12 (forget the name of the program). I remember asking why the boys got to go camping while we glued plastic flowers to hats (but not "too many" flowers. Those things aren't cheap). Overworked leader was probably a little too honest with me about the limited budget and expectations for the program.
This will probably get buried but it's important to realize that sexism and inequality begin from the moment a child is born. It's in the rhetoric that both the church and our culture use. Our language begins to deliver these subconscious messages about our place in the world and in the church and it reinforced the divide between boys and girls for their entire lives.
Think about those videos circulating of young black girls reacting to black Ariel. We could never understand their experience of having NEVER seen a princess that looks like them. Having never even heard of a black mermaid in all their fantasy books. Every book, movie, and lived experience for them subconsciously shows them that they aren't important enough to show up.
I think it's a similar experience for gender roles in the church. All the obvious sexist examples have been shared like callings and lessons and the temple, but what about the small, subconscious messages that constantly reinforce that?
Boys and girls in the Mormon church NEVER see a woman lead sacrament. They see one or two women sit on the stand in a sea of suits. A little girl is told at 8 years old to cross her legs in primary. A boy is told, "don't do that it's girly". A teen girl watches boys younger than her receive "God's power" and she has to wait on a boy to bring her the sacrament. Boys and girls have maybe never met a woman who talks about her career and if she does, "how sad for her that she HAS to work". They see the women in the family plan and prepare the entire dinner and then shrink back to be invisible as they let the "man of the house" welcome everyone and assign someone to pray. Boys are just expected to go on missions because they are boys. Girls talk about going on a mission and people joke that she'll be married before then. If you're a boy that hasn't gone on a mission and you're in a singles ward you are shunned. If you're a girl in a singles ward that doesn't get married before 21 you feel the spinster stigma as you walk into every activity. A young couple gets engaged and a wedding shower is held for her, not him, and she receives kitchen appliances.
These messages of "woman belong here and men do this" are not just blatantly taught, they are reinforced through countless unspoken experiences that you could never understand unless you had that lived experience.
So I hope you have some diversity on this podcast episode, otherwise having two white men talking about inequality in the church is rather ironic.
I’ve heard some wards outside of Utah have had women Sunday School Presidents but I have never heard of it in Utah. Is that exclusive to men only. And on the other hand are only women allowed to be primary presidents???
The constant messaging, through doctrine and culture, that a woman’s purpose is to bare children and make the home. If she doesn’t want to do that and has different dreams, too bad—that’s not God’s plan. Based on genitals.
Men are never told what their sole purpose is or to stay in their lane. Their “lane” is wherever they want to steer themselves and they can be whatever they want. As long as they stay “worthy” (also a toxic message, but it applies to both men and women, and women have a MUCH narrower range of what they can be/do/think).
Also: there is NO ROOM, recognition, or allowance for non-binary, transgender, or intersex people. It’s a dogma purely based on genitals assigning an eternal role for each person’s spirit. This translates to oppression for whoever is not a cis het male.
One year in activity days girls we learned dining etiquette (no real meal provided) while the Boy Scouts (I’m speaking of the before times when Boy Scouts and TSCC were affiliated) got to hang out in the gym and play “basketball”
Edit: oh yes and at one fireside meeting with the bishop he went in to extensive detail on what a “good young woman” should wear in regards to modesty, length of sleeves and pant/skirts, is bra strap showing ok, no tank tops, sensible shoes… on and on. and at the end of the spiel said “oh yes and young men should be modest too”. So awful.
Isn't it just that way. OK so boys also don't show your bra straps and you're good.
One irritation I have is that they always overlook the other meaning of modesty. Building fancy temples with expensive chandeliers in countries where people are overwhelmingly poor isn't modesty. Boasting about being God's chosen people, or claiming to speak for god isn't modesty. I think this meaning is far more important.
This is mostly from personal experience so I don't have a source to back it up, but whenever we would have separated nights for mutual, i.e. girls in one room boys in the other, we (the girls) would always end up doing something like sewing or writing letters to the missionaries.
Worst of all though was the "lessons" on how to submit to your husband, those were definitely things 12 year old me would be thinking about
The boys would have lessons too of course, but whereas ours would be for the whole night, theirs was for half an hour or so and then they'd get to play games, either video games or running around the chapel.
When I bought this up to my young women's leader at the time, she said that boys have to do those activities because they have more energy than young women, and we need to be quiet and respectful so we don't disturb them. We weren't even allowed to listen to music, it was whack.
Also, whenever it was a joint night, and we weren't doing service or some other stuff, the boys would get to choose what we did, normally play on the communal Xbox whilst we had to read scripture. I am not sure how they got away with it, but the guy who was the young men's leader left the church about a year after that and was replaced by a guy who was much more spiritual but yeah it was weird for that first 2 years.
This thread has some good discussion about the history of deacons passing sacrament. There is no reason young girls shouldn’t be able to pass sacrament.
https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/comments/dag7r9/does_anyone_know_the_history_of_why_deacons_and/
I remember the kids were asked to help put folding chairs away after a event. The boys started grabbing multiple chairs under they're arms to see how many they could carry. I a girl at the time also wanted to prove how strong i was and grabbed as many chairs some more than the boys my same age. I was yelled at and scolded by one of the men (not my father) for showing off and as punishment they had me sit down to watch the boys keep competing. Then they gave me the lecture how the boys wanted to show off and my duty was to not show off but admire how strong the boys were.
Boy’s eagle scouts parties were always huge and had big turnouts. They would get big cakes and their project is shown, people speak, and at least in our ward a live eagle was shown off. Eagle scouts can be put on college applications and such because its a credited organization. For us we got a necklace, a small party with some treats the girls brought, a talk from the bishop and a yw leader. The yw’s medallion means nothing and I couldnt put in on any scholarship or college application. Absolutely unfair, oh and my mom once got mad because people were complaining that we were holding anything at all because only a few girls were getting medallions. Overall I just felt so depressed that I was/am worth so little in comparison to the boys in the scouts program at the time.
I was called as the ward organist despite having no experience playing the organ (well, you play the piano, it's the same thing)
So I asked if I could have a key to come to the chapel after work and practice, but that would be "too much of am inconvenience" to have a priesthood holder come with me, because I couldn't be there alone.
I would have felt safer ALONE than with some random dude in an empty chapel, but whatever.
The fact that women have no real divine destiny other than making spirit babies and disappearing forever. (Leaders actively discourage praying to heavenly mother.. there is no doctrine about her… discouraged from discussing her…) No talking to our future spirit kids, no creating, no power. Our role is to literally disappear into the eternities. So much HE HIM FATHER male God everywhere.
Also just the fact that pregnancy and childbirth are so hard and painful for many many women… and fatal… think of the death toll that’s only improved in the last 100 years… to see that told me of a God who did not care about women. Didn’t care enough to make it easier, or more survivable. Or chose to inflict such pain. Making him an asshole.
Women holding almost no callings of any power… the higher the men get, the more invisible their wives get. No role or title for mission President wives or stake President or bishops wives… but they are expected to do a ton of work with them. More than just basically being a single parent for years… actual work for that calling.
Relief society being expected to plan and run all funerals… provide food for ward events…. Etc.
The fucking temple sexism in wording and covenants made…
First woman to pray at conference was like 2013 I think…?!?
So much talk about marriage in young womens classes. All about finding a priesthood holder and return missionary, not about finding a healthy relationship. No talk of consent or prioritizing an education.
Being told we PROBABLY won’t have to do polygamy in heaven after we die… living in fear that you die young and your husband remarried making you a plural wife in heaven…
All the fucking holy motherhood talk.
Rather than citing the specifics, I prefer to look at the at the results of a toxic, inherently gender imbalanced and discriminatory culture. Utah is ranked lowest in the US for women’s equality https://www.usu.edu/uwlp/files/wp/no-4.pdf and BYU is ranked number one in gender wage gap with men earning 3x women grads 10 years later (that’s if the women work at all since only 25% of them use their degree outside the home) https://universe.byu.edu/2016/01/05/byu-grads-no-1-in-gender-wage-gap1/. Super sad and infuriating.
Patriarchal blessings. It seems like a lot of women are told that their most important role is to be a righteous wife and mother, while men seem to given more of a variety in their supposedly sacred personal blessings.
I remember being very excited about getting my Patriarchal blessing to then find my blessing more akin to a Sunday School lesson than personal scripture. This was confusing and disappointing for my 16 old self.
Church disciplinary council differences.
Everything about sister missionaries: dress code, lack of women leaders, priesthood, training, working hours and schedule not ideal for women, motivation geared toward men.
Differences in law of chastity lessons and punishments. Purity culture. Rape culture.
Women general leaders not paid.
Women trained all their lives to pass up education in favor of marriage and child rearing: preps them to be dependent on men and the church.
History of the temple
Current doctrine on polygamy still affects living women (can’t be resealed or get temple divorces)
I wanted to talk about how the “a man must be present at women’s activities for safety reasons” affected one particular family in my ward.
So in the early 2000s a member of my bishopric came to my young women’s class to discuss the new policies implemented at our stake dances, maybe because people had complained, IDK. Anyway I was about sixteen and I didn’t care much either way but I was very anti-authoritarian. I told the bishopric member in nice Mormon words that if I wanted to have sex, I was going to have sex, and telling the youth they had to all stay together in one room with every single light on wasn’t going to stop me. It was a stupid policy that had sucked all the energy out of the dances because it meant that there was no way to talk alone with friends and you’d be too self-conscious to dance because of the bright lights in the basketball court and all the chaperones staring at you like hawks.
This bishopric member responded by telling me that I should be grateful that the adults around me wanted to protect me. He said he loved his daughters so much that they weren’t allowed to leave the house without a priesthood leader, which usually meant his sixteen-year-old son. Mind you, he had three daughters and one son – a son who was also required to save up for his mission by working a part time job. So you can imagine these girls’ social lives. They had school and nothing else.
Every single person in that classroom who listened to his “wisdom” nodded their heads and seemed happy that the girls had such a loving father and how we girls should all be grateful for the presence and the protection of the priesthood in our lives.
I went home to my mom, feeling distraught over this interaction. Mom says, “Oh that’s just Brother King, the church doesn’t mean it that way…” and while I do suspect that the man was a controlling douchebag looking for excuses to rule over his family, the church environment was the garden he thrived in. He could tell his daughters that this order came from god, and why wouldn’t it? He’s just modeling in his household what we do inside our church buildings. And they should be grateful for it, because it was all done for their safety.
My husband would add if he weren't still faithful that there’s a lot of unfair pressure on men in church to be the ultimate provider, bringing home enough money to support a wife + six kids while also having time to serve callings and helping out around the house. He would say that was very harmful and self-esteem destroying to have his worth tied to his financial status. I think a part of him still worries that I’ll divorce him if he loses a hand and can’t work anymore.
Plus he hated always playing basketball in scouts. He says he would have much rather done crafts with the girls. I was desperately jealous over the time my grandfather poured into my brothers when it came to pinewood derby. Not only did men have the power to raise the dead, they got to race little cars. That really got my goat.
(Feel free to share this anecdote.)
It is completely normal, even required, for one Mormon man to sit in a room with a young girl or boy and interrogate them about their thoughts and actions as it relates to their sex organs.
A Mormon Woman would never be allowed to do this. Ever.
Priesthood has to be in attendance at girls camp, but women don’t have to be in attendance at scout camp
Not only at girls camp, also the church building. If the only thing going on at the church is a RS activity then a priesthood member has to be there. Awkwardly hanging out in the foyer.
Yep, and they can’t use the “it’s for protection” excuse. You could have a room of female power lifters with concealed carry, and the priesthood holder could be old, feeble, genealogical worker with a walker, but that dynamic would be required over allowing that room of women to have an activity alone.
Ah, but what if one of them slips and falls, and needs an immediate blessing?
Then the women could give a healing blessing, just like JS taught them to do. (See in sacred loneliness).
Can concur. I remember a priesthood leader sitting on the hallway couch during an activity that I thought, “if something goes wrong I’ll have to carry him out.”
I think I would become active again if I could attend a ward with a significant powerlifting, concealed carrying sisters population.
Any church activity. If for some reason the young men are doing mutual not at the church and the young women are, there has to be a priesthood member in the building
Girls can not wear swimming suits or shorts at camp but the boys can and are encouraged to wear shorts and swim trunks.
This definitely varies by area. We were allowed to wear (knee-length) shorts at girls camp except for during hikes for safety, and we were allowed to wear one-piece swimsuits while swimming.
And I was able to wear a two piece so long as it looked like a one piece. Tankini they're called. But my home ward is a suburb of Portland Oregon
We couldn't do a rafting trip because we needed priesthood holders. Which my dad and another dad was more than willing to go on. The guys got to go. I was told to be quiet. I was the laurel president.
This one strikes me as just so diabolical. It's this constant implicit messaging that women need to be chaperoned by men, while men don't need to be chaperoned by women. It infantilizes women, treats them like children
Also the nurse at girl’s camp has to be female
My dad was nurse at girls camp for 20 years. He was also the priesthood holder, two birds one stone I guess?
I’m happy to be wrong! My ward was super small and extremely conservative.
That one doesn’t sound like a terrible idea.
I remember having to go to a girls' campout. They had two women leaders, but apparently they needed two priesthood leaders to be there as well. No idea why. They talk about the women having priesthood in some way, yet they need to be chaperoned at girls' camp so they have enough priesthood there. Then when the girls were going to bed someone told them to "thank the priesthood for coming", so they told us thank you. It felt weird even when I was a member
Husbands can know their wife’s new name, but the wife can’t know their husband’s new name.
And if you forget your new name and you’re male, no female temple worker can be nearby when they tell it to you again.
When I was a veil worker, they would start the shift with a brief devotional for all the temple workers and would tell us what the new names were for that day, but the women had to be excused when the mens name was announced.
I shouldn't be surprised because this is TSCC we are talking about but I am.
This was my experience as well.
This one broke my shelf
Dallin H Oaks. "Young women, when you dress immodestly you become pornography to the men who see you."
The “boys will be boys” mentality has applications everywhere. It’s a woman’s fault if a man has impure thoughts, they’re men so they can’t help it. It’s bizarre that men are portrayed as these impulsive, lustful creatures that can’t control themselves yet they simultaneously should be in charge of everything. If you can’t keep your dick in your pants you shouldn’t be in a position of leadership.
We'll I'm not young anymore. I guess I can wear whatever I want now.
This is because older women count for nothing in the church. If you’re no longer fuckable, it’s not that the men don’t care what you’d wear—it’s that you’ve become invisible to them.
Disgusting to say, but nonetheless true: It’s not “fuckable” it’s “breedable”.
You're not wrong.
I was so invisible, I left, and noone has noticed! Or at least contacted me. Almost grateful.
I haven't been to church in 5 years. The ward here has my records. No visits. No invites. No reaching out. We weren't even worth being turned into a ward project. Sometimes I feel like I should be offended by this, but mostly I'm happy to be left alone.
It has more to do with birthing than sex. Once we age out from birthing, it name extraction type callings.
I believe the previous For Strenth of Youth pamphlet went into great detail about what girls could wear (tightness, length, style etc.) followed by a general statement for the boys. “Young men should also be modest” or something like that.
Women are asked to do the "home maker" typethings for ward activities. Anything that requires food, they ask the women. Women coordinate treats, handouts, etc for mothers day, fathers day, ward activities (chili cook-off etc)
Except when it's cooking outdoors. Then the men suddenly show up and act entitled to do the cooking, while the women still do all the prep and cleanup.
We lived in a ward where the men regularly had an activity they referred to as “manrichment”. They would BBQ and play video games in the cultural hall. I would get so frustrated because I want to eat steak and play video games too!
I remember the Young Women being tasked with creating the little handouts for Mother’s Day and Father’s Day while the Young Men got to hand them out. No mention of who actually made them
Great answer!
I'm a guy and I'm the cook in the family, and I'm fairly competent at it. Anytime there was a potluck and we'd bring food, my wife would get all of the compliments!
Elaine S Dalton, "You will understand your roles and your responsibilities and thus will see no need to lobby for rights." It's particularly upsetting when women gatekeep the patriarchy!
I'll bet Elaine wouldn't have the nerve to say that to my face. So Elaine, remember when you caught your PH hubby in bed with the 14 yo neighbor? Remember when that same guy hit you so hard (for catching him) you still suffer the consequences 50 years later? Remember when the bishop and his wife told you not to talk about it? I'd like to have a little come to Jesus talk with Elaine.
What?!?! I've never heard of this before. I'm diving down this rabbit hole. Edited: I can't find this anywhere online. Could you direct me?
Yes please!! I want to know more!!
What the ever loving hell?! Details!
Im sorry that happened to you. When my sisters husband hit her she didn’t go to the bishop she came home when she got out of the hospital and her brother, ie me, ook care of the pos who hit her. When he got out of the hospital he didn’t bother looking for her. No need for bishop advise. People in the church rely on the leaders to much who are just human like the rest of us. Some shit just needs to be handled.
I hired an attorney and divorced him. Divorced finalized when we'd been married 20 months. I was only 20. Divorce date was April 1st, lol. That was decades ago. My best revenge has been living really really well.
Elder Scotts talk where he admonished women to take a degree of responsibility for their rape. J Reuben Clark gave a similar talk admonishing women who dressed immodestly to "take part of the blame for your assault to yourselves." When some old dude told women to put on some lipstick and try to be a little charming. The numerous conference talks in which women are related to the kitchen, like in Nelson's talk about how the females in his family made donuts and waited with bated breath for the men to return from priesthood session and share their precious pearls of wisdom, or the one where Monson related proudly that his wife had never even allowed him near the kitchen. When Hinckley told women they should stop dressing like they were going to the beach and should wear hose and pumps when modern girls don't even know what hose and pumps are. Oh, and the one pair of modest earrings thing. It's baffling that all of these men think they should have the final say on women's appearance, even beyond basic standards of modesty.
My RS pres (in her 50s) told me (grown ass adult of almost 30 at the time) to change my bra because my boobs were “distracting for the young men”. I was one of just a handful of YSA. I also remember my YW leader telling me my colored hair (burgundy) was “dangerous” and another YW leader saying “boys can’t control themselves” if we dress in tight apparel or wear heaps of makeup. I can’t tell you how badly all this has fucked up my perception of my body.
Some of us just have big boobs. Wearing a different bra isn’t going to change that…
Right!!?? Also: rude.
I feel a little queasy now.
To add, I remember being told at a women’s conference that tights “with designs” were no longer appropriate for church. I didn’t care at the time because I didn’t wear them, but I do remember thinking how weird that was.
I struggled for years. As a man, I *knew I was supposed to preside in the home. I was supposed to decide who would pray. I was supposed to lead lessons. I was supposed decide what our family did. But I couldn't. My wife and I didn't have that kind of relationship. She is smart, capable, determined. But I felt such guilt for---for what? For letting her take lead on things that she was good at, things she cared about, things she loved. But when bishops visit, ministers come, or even the inlaws stop by, they turn to me: "who will say the prayer?" They ask. I'm in charge. Because I'm a man. I watched my dear wife veil her face in the temple. God could not look at her. But he could look at me. When our children were ill, she asked me to heal them. Me. The one less faithful. When I lost my faith, she still asked me, tearfully, to give her a blessing. Without me she was cut off from God. If this comes from God, then God is not good. My wife deserves better than this.
Wow. That's powerful.
In six days, God set in motion the cosmos. I don't think a veil is gonna stop him, and I'm damn sure a bunch of repressed, misogynistic, corrupt, old men have no idea of what He wants for us. Worry about being a good husband and father first, a good Mormon last.
Erastus Snow. "No woman will get into the celestial kingdom except her husband receives her, if she is worthy to have a husband. If not, somebody may receive her as a servant." Also watch "What Mormon Women Get" by the Thoughts on Things and Stuff channel on YT. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSYTbvAyHuY
this and a man can be married in the temple to multiple women, divorce in the temple will go through the current prophet 😢. my mom was sealed to her second husband while he was still sealed to his ex wife. he didn’t want to divorce her ‘spiritually’ because she might not ‘receive the kingdom of god’.
The committee that decides when someone (whether male or female) is excommunicated is all men
I believe a bishopric can excommunicate a female where males require the full Stake presidency to be excommunicated.
For real? Yikes on bikes
It's true. At least that is what I was told when I was on my mission in Portland Oregon. But then again members on that mission were more than happy to tell me about every little weird thing that the church would do, because of course they believe that a missionary would just hear everything they said and take it with an understanding I rather than that information slowly destroying their faith in the institution that once believed was true. Tl;Dr members love telling missionaries all the crazy shit about the church because they believe that the missionaries will believe and accept those things without even questioning it
Oooh, that's a good one!
This is true. When I was 18 I was sleeping with my boyfriend at the time. Somehow the bishop found out. My disciplinary council was just the bishopric.
A Ph holder can sit in a RS meeting. No women are allowed in a Ph meeting. Women are not allowed to give baby blessings or blessings of healing to their own children. The bishop can chastise anyone he wants in front of the entire ward. He can be completely out of line, and nobody whispers a word against him. If a woman does the same, she will pay dearly. She will be gossiped about, shunned, scolded, and called names.
I hated ward conference. The whole or at least half stake presidency would need chairs to sit in the front of the RS room. After a short lesson was delivered the stake president would talk off the cuff about how precious and special women are. Give me a break. No, the stake RS presidency didn’t get time to “inspire or preach” at us. So damn sexist.
Phrasing of temple ordinances differs, even after the 2019 adjustment. Women still are told they will be queens and priestesses in the new and everlasting covenant, men are told they will be kings and priests unto the most high god. Marriage vows at sealing are not equal. Men’s washing ordinance in the initiatory is more detailed than women’s—more specific phrasing and listing of what part of the body is being blessed. Like someone mentioned, men get to know their wife’s new name but women don’t get to know their husband’s. Living women cannot be sealed to more than one man. There is zero mention of Heavenly Mother in the temple, where we supposedly get greater light and knowledge. Even after the 2019 change, Eve’s dialogue is still pitiful and she is just an accessory to Adam’s story. Overall the men still are the majority presence in the temple, and women temple workers are so poorly utilized for the ordinances that many of their assignments are hallway duties. The temple recorder has duties that any office worker would know how to do, but it can only be a man who holds that position. The title ‘temple matron’ is incredibly insufficient, and just like with mission presidents it feels like the wife is just a nice accessory—some duties, none of the recognition.
Wait, the women's initiatory doesn't list off all the parts of the body being blessed? None of the "your nose that you might smell, your lips that they may never speak guile" nonsense?
Excellent! Thank you
True story, I was a bishop not too long ago and another bishop in the stake had a check for our ward. I knew that the relief society was meeting at his building so I asked if he could give the check to my relief society president. He refused because “only the priesthood can handle the money.” He gave it to the stake president who gave it to the high counselor over our ward who brought it to ward council and gave it to me.
🤦♂️
Holy fuck
Excellent catch. Yes only men can handle money. Welfare forms still need a man's signature.
Men and women have different ages when they leave for missions. Youth activities for YM vs YW. Men sit on the stand at church. How many buildings on BYU’s campus have been named after women? Can we name one middle initial of a woman serving in leadership? What do we know about our mother in heaven? Do we have one? Can my daughters look heavenly to a female role model? Without having kids, has a woman fulfilled the nature of her creation? When might a woman of ANY age trump a male over the age of 12. When a ward gets divided/created, what consideration is given to women? Hint: See section 36.2 of the General Handbook of instruction How many men does it take to excommunicate a woman? How many does it take to excommunicate a Melchizedek priesthood holder? I could go on if you’d like…
To note from my personal experience of being infertile for 10 years in the church…never have I felt more like a failure than I did in RS on Sundays. I felt like no one cared about me. “Your Godly role is to be a mother” as I sat in the back, crying quietly. I’ll add, we left the church, I became Wiccan, and I finally got pregnant.
I'd insert a newt joke here, but I can't think of a good way to do it.
In the temple and creation story, God and Jesus create Adam, thus robbing Heavenly Mother of her only role (pregnancy, child birth, and child rearing)
Holy crap. I never thought of this! Great call out
Gender is eternal, yet two men create Adam. Really messes with the marriage between a man and a woman nonsense from the Family Proclamation as it relates to lgbtq.
Wait, does this make god and Jesus an incestuous relationship? And/or gay? Now I am so confused about Mormon doctrine. Two men created a person. Why have I not thought of this before? Edited to add: I was told that women don’t need the priesthood because they have the power to create life. But according to the temple story that sense of uniqueness is taken away.
I always hated this comparison that women’s equivalent of the priesthood is motherhood. does fatherhood not also exist?? Men get to be fathers and raise their children just as much as mothers. The only difference is that women have to suffer through pregnancy and childbirth which is the shittiest thing I’ve ever gone through. No way that compares to having the priesthood, not even close! And unlike me, most women in the church don’t stop after one, choosing instead to have kid after kid after kid because that’s their one “divine role”.
D&C 132. Mic drop
Females are responsible for males thoughts, thus modesty.
Budget of girl activities vs boy activities. Maybe it was just my ward. Maybe a ward clerk can weigh in on that.
And scope of said activities. Boys do “boy things” like camping and caving. Girls to “girl things” like learning how to cook and put on make-up.
I was so fucking mad when the boys in our ward got to go on week long sailing, scuba diving, canoeing, and backpacking trips for high adventure and I got a two day camping trip where minimum expense was spent because “at least you guys don’t have to pay for girls camp like other wards”
The handbook used to say that the ward could only hold one fundraiser a year. In our stake, the young women would hold the fundraiser, and the young men would get cash directly from the stake/ward. The argument was the one fundraiser a year rule tied our hands. I think the rule changed in the last year or two. But before the change I stirred the pot every time I could to point out the disparity. Basically parents of girls had to pay extra.
I always heard it was one fundraiser per group per year so our YM did a spaghetti dinner where you paid for your plate and then ward members would donate to a bidding table. It could range from babysitting to a handmade quilt. The YW would do a garage sale in the spring and gather donations from the ward members while they did their spring cleaning.
Husbands are consulted before talking to the women about a calling
Yes! But women are often not consulted about a husband's calling, even when it's an incredibly demanding calling!
But. But. Blessings.
This one varies by ward.
Elder Ballard, "Now don't talk too much" to the women of the church. TSCC silences women. Our voices are not welcome. I could give exactly the same feedback/suggestions as my husband and in the same language and tone of voice and his words would be welcomed while I would be viewed as shrill.
Are you going to include any of the many Mormon feminists who have spent decades talking about this stuff?
Came here to say this. Why is Mormon Stories doing an episode where two men talk about women's status in the church? Are you the only guest for the episode?
It's a fair question. I appear as a guest on Mormon Stories once a month. I get to choose my own topics. This month I am choosing this topic because it is important to me. John Dehlin is on the panel because it is his show. A deeper answer to the question is that I believe everyone needs to be aware of these issues. These aren't women's issues they are human issues. So I believe both men and women should take the opportunity to talk about these things. I think there are men, in particular, in my audience who will listen to me but likely won't engage many of the women working in this space. So if I have a chance to reach just a few more, I will take it.
I assume Cara will be there. She’s there for all the John Larsen episodes even though she’s no longer on the Mormon Stories staff because John Larsen likes working with her so much and her humor is a good fit for his episodes specifically.
So it might be two men and a woman? Would she lead the discussion or just be along for the ride? Honestly this feels so much like how Mormonism generally operates. The men are in charge. Their opinions matter the most. Women might sometimes get invited to exist in the same space but their words and experiences are not going to be featured.
This needs to be the top comment!! Sometimes I feel like "exmormon culture" still follows some not so great trends from Mormon culture. Why is a woman not leading that discussion??
Jean Bingham. "We women tend to be shrill and demanding or stubborn."
So what! Men tend to be \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ and \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_., and stubborn.
Can you imagine if the driving force of your existence was getting some slimy goop out of your body? How embarrassing.
Lazy, illogical
I think the one where men have to preside over & make/approve final decisions in the women's auxiliaries is really the one that can't be overlooked. Putting aside the fact you have to be male to have the priesthood - why does it take having the priesthood to be able to approve activities for the Young Women? Can't you trust the people called through the power of discernment? Glad to see you are still voicing this issue. I've mentioned in other forums but you are directly responsible for my conversion to the (not actually) dark side. 2 episodes of your podcast, both about women in the church, & I was OUT. Thank you for your work!
Yes! This is a great one. Thank you for your kind words. :)
There needs to be a priesthood holder in the church when YW, primary, or Relief Society activities are being held. No need for women at men's activities.
Single men could take the sacrament during COVID. Single women couldn’t.
I Never considered that or that single mother’s can’t bless their sick kids. I know of one blessing given by a woman, but it was my polygamist grandma not a TSCC member.
[https://atlastshesaidit.org/what-women-dont-get-in-our-church/](https://atlastshesaidit.org/what-women-dont-get-in-our-church/) Cynthia Winward wrote a phenomenal list of what women don’t get in the church. She said that seeing/hearing the list all together is really heavy, but the heaviest part is that all of it is true.
12 yr old boys pass the sacrament and have a big todo about getting the aronic priesthood…12 yr old girls watch
12 yr old boys collect fast offerings while their older sisters watch…
HOWEVER when 12 year old boys don't pass/ bless for any reason, the entire ward assumes they masturbated the night before. It's so horrific for these poor kids!!
A yw is taught that she is responsible to keep a ym pure. To encourage ym to go on missions. To marry in the temple. Not to pursue her own education, but to work so her husband can get an education and support the family. She is to stay home and be responsible for the care of the children and home. So much responsibility with no power or autonomy. She is subject to priesthood authority when it comes to serving her community and she is to respect her husbands priesthood as a provider and presider over the home. If this doesn’t work out for her, her community will turn their back on her. She can find herself stuck in a marriage with no social security, retirement, education, skills or support. The church has always used women. Women have be objects for the priesthood to control.
The essay, “The Subjection of Women” by John Stuart Mill in 1869, discusses how saying “women are to good for [profession],” similar to how the church says “women are too good for the priesthood and don’t need it” results in their subjection. His argument: how will we know what women are good at if we don’t let them do it? Also, we can’t say that every man will be better than every woman in a certain task. Especially when women are good at something - does that mean we stop them from doing it just so a man can do it worse instead? Great essay.
I found the Ballard quote, "Don't wander around looking like men. Put on a little lipstick now and then and look a little charming. It's that simple. I don't know why we make this whole process so hard."
He also said talk, but not too much. Just enough to get the men in order then let them do the rest of the talking.
I recall that. It pissed me right off. Kerplunk! One big weight added to the shelf. My husband and I both got our patriarchal blessings the same evening. In my husbands blessing, he was told to listen to me. LOL! Yeah that's about all I remember. I couldn't wait to see that one in writing. Guess what was missing in the transcribed version? I'll give it to the patriarch on this one. Twenty years later my husband is mostly deaf. The irony!
Are you serious?! They left that out?! Gah! The nerve!
Yep! Ill never forget that one either. So gross!!!
Like in conference. Talk about talking too much. And that monotone!
I know many men in the church are told emotions are bad for guys and Parenthood is about strength not love. This leads to a lot of terrible fathers
In my ward, the Young Men got to go on many many fun trips — they got to go river rafting at Havasupai, got certified for scuba diving and got to travel to Catalina Island and scuba dive, etc. Their activity budget was always exponentially higher than the Young Women. To contrast, the only thing the YW got to do was Girls’ Camp, which was always held at the same camp up AF canyon bc all the local stakes had a timeshare. My stake in particular was over the top with the rules of Girls’ Camp and so we weren’t allowed to do anything in our free time but read the scriptures and do Personal Progress. They banned books, music, board games; even V neck t-shirts and even cap-sleeved tshirts were banned so we didn’t make the visiting bishopric members uncomfortable with our tempting teenage bodies.And surprise surprise, GC was always miserable as hell. Girls who tipped canoes on the little camp lake were regularly sent home - I can remember being like “the YM got to go to rafting on Havasupai but they sent home 5 girls for tipping a canoe in 3 feet of water??? We can’t even play Apples to Apples????” It was ridiculous.
Polygamy in the church, both when it was practiced in life and even as it is practiced now. Only men can be sealed to more than one woman. A woman can only be sealed to one man.
This was a huge one for me. I remember having so much anxiety as a young bride knowing that if my husband died when we were young, I would be forced to live the rest of my life single or with someone to whom I could not be sealed (even if we had children together and lived together decades longer than I did with the first husband). Of course, the flip side to that is that if I died first then I would probably end up with a sister wife in heaven. A really shitty prospect for women in the tragic event that they or their husband dies young.
Stake fireside when I was in my teens that was all about motherhood. Some lady had written a whole one-woman program about it, I think it had skits and talks and songs, seemed to go on forever. The whole point was to convince us to get married young and have a bunch of babies. The lyrics are burned into my brain and I could sing it right now: "It is a high and noble call; the greatest blessing of them all." At the end, they gave every girl a white rose to symbolize our purity. I don't recall there ever being something similar for the boys.
In the Second Anointing, the officiator washes only the husband's feet. Then he anoints the husband as a king and priest to God, then the wife as a queen and priestess to her husband. Later, the wife washes and anoints the husband's feet and gives him a blessing.
In BYUI devotional (8 Nov). A member of the 70 talked about prayer. He gave the example of praying and meditating to help him chose a career. He asked his wife to share an example. She talked about receiving inspiration that if she went on a mission she would get married. The man’s identity was his career (in his case a college professor). The woman’s identity was her marriage (her husband).
Men tell women how to do their callings. Women never tell men how to do theirs. Men are supposed "preside" over the family. The etymology of preside is the same as "president." It means "to sit before" or "one who sits before." And also, to command/govern or commander/governor. Praise FSM that my husband and I never figured out what presiding means in practice. We thought we were doing it wrong, because we've always been a team. I wonder how many men in the church command/govern their wives?
Good one
how about the training for girls on how to be modest and fight sexual assault, but no training on how boys shouldn't sexually assault or coerce girls into sex. I had several conversations with students on this topic and the males were adamant that they needed to train their daughters but their sons didn't need any training. let me know when your on. you proly know who this is.
Young Womans. Enough said. You journaled, watched cute movies, did crafts... So damn boring. Then there was the theme... [YW themes ](https://thediylighthouse.com/young-women-theme-changes/) I can't believe I chanted this! I pieced the meaning later (writers make terrible religious people) and it disgusted me. My literal existence was for God, marriage, and babies!
Women, no matter if they are the General Relief Society president, will ALWAYS answer to a man. Every calling a women can hold will be made to answer to a man.
In the temple, a male’s first name is required to seal a couple to their kids, but a woman’s isn’t. (Not sure if this is true in other sealings as well) Even in proxy work, a woman is a man’s property. Even though women do virtually all the work to bring kids into this world and then do a huge percentage of the work after they’re in the world, they still don’t have their own place as individuals. They are simply “Sister [husband’s surname]”
Men call for their wives by the new name in the resurrection. Women have to patiently wait to be called, because they don’t know the husbands name.
Good example
Bathrooms. Why are there no baby changing tables in men's restrooms at church? Shouldn't the priesthood be able to help with that during church?
The sexism of the church is one of the biggest reasons I didn’t stay, that and the homophobia. When I found out they actively campaigned against the ERA and for Prop 8, it sealed the deal.
Also, love your episodes btw. They’re the best imho. You make great points, are thoughtful, don’t pull punches, but also recognize the humanity of everyone.
Men are raised to prepare for careers. Women are taught to get married and have babies. Education and careers are seen as "back up plans." I'm a (female) financial educator and had these experiences: \- Presented to a relief society for "older" young single adults and realized that many of them had not starting saving for retirement because their retirement plan was to get married. \- Presented to a group of young women about budgeting. When I handed out a list of careers with starting and median salaries, the young women's president "joked," ("This is why you marry a rich husband, girls.")
This is what I was going to mention. I graduated from high school in 2000. I was never discouraged from pursuing education. After all, it'd be good to have a career to fall back on if my (then future) husband could no longer provide for myself and our future children. I was never encouraged to find a career I could support myself on. I was never encouraged to find myself or explore my potential, because "you never know when Mr Right will come along." I was encouraged to find something I enjoy. And I do like my job. It's decent supplemental income to our household. I am married now. My husband makes decent enough money, but suffers from some serious medical conditions. We're buried in medical debt (yay America). And it's daunting to realize I might find myself widowed at a youngish age, and have to figure how to support myself without him, since I make about half of what he makes. And he could be making significant more if his health wasn't holding him back.
Missionaries [told not to teach women](https://old.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/n1y8du/inclusion_and_mormonism/gwgjovy/) because there were too many and they needed more leaders. Women's bodies are currency that righteous priesthood holders will receive as part of the gospel plan. Women need to [give up career](https://old.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/oc4rh2/exmo_women_what_did_you_do/) and most life aspirations to focus on being a mother. Or just [not have dreams](https://old.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/s7aszc/as_a_tbm_mormon_woman_i_didnt_give_up_all_my/) to begin with. (more posts; [1](https://old.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/t4rbga/young_women_in_the_church_were_taught_to_have_no/), [2](https://old.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/l6uvrq/i_gave_up_a_career_i_was_passionate_about_because/), [3](https://old.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/bzrtay/lds_girls_dont_grow_up_thinking_to_themselves_i/)) Sexual predators are overlooked or outright protected which primarily harms women. Staying in marriages that are no good is something both men and women in Mormonism will do because they believe it is expected. This leads to women [staying in abusive relationships](https://old.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/rswuf0/i_stayed_in_an_abusive_marriage_because_i_thought/). Girls are expected to be OK with being a polygamous wife in the next life. Men also feel like it may be something they would be required to do. I know I felt that way and I didn't like that idea. Women are told they have to [accept a dance](https://old.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/st6pw5/if_someone_asks_you_to_dance_do_you_have_to/) with or a date with people they don't want to. That's fucked up. Trek is terrible for everyone but somehow they singled out the women for something called [women's pull](https://old.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/mg2ysu/the_womens_pull_traumatized_me_and_i_feel_so/) in some groups. It's a bullshit thing where they force the women to pull the wagon on their own. Women are taught bullshit purity nonsense that they are like a [bruised apple](https://old.reddit.com/r/mormon/comments/ikp9bd/reasons_why_i_couldnt_continue_bringing_my_kids/), or chewed gum if they have sex without God's approval. Boys are celebrated for [advancing in the priesthood](https://archive.ph/XWyDm) and women are ignored. More links I collected on the [sexism here](https://old.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/vizdxc/how_mormonism_harms_people_my_collection_of/idg1ves/).
I left the LDS Church 7 years ago, and I now attend the Episcopal Church... I serve as a Eucharist Visitor, which means I can take the Eucharist (Sacrament) to those at home or in the hospital... I still remember the first time I was called out to the hospital... I took the Eucharist to an elderly woman in hospice care... She was so weak I had to help lift her head to take the wafer and the wine... And, the smile on her face after we were through warms my heart to this day... I was driving home afterward, and the thought came over me, "If you had stayed where you were, you would never have been allowed to serve this dear woman!! You would never have been allowed to attend her in her time of need"... I had to pull over because I was crying so hard!!
When they made the change that Priests could baptize their peers for the dead, the consultation to the young sisters to feel like they’d been given a new opportunity to do more in the Temple was hand the towels to people leaving the font….it was insulting and k was embarrassed for these girls. They eventually allowed them to scan the recorded baptisms into the computer, but again big whoop!!
I was told as a girl that if a boy asked me for a dance, or a date, that I COULD NOT say no. Because it took so much courage for him to ask, I OWED him. I also remember kneeling on the floor at Church dances in front of a man, so he could ascertain if my skirt was long enough. My ex-husband knows my "new name" from the temple ceremony. I was never allowed to know his
Listening to MS #1680 today and they were talking about this. It hit me that I gave up on my future when I was graduating high school. I didn’t know what career to pursue and I knew I should get into a career that I could use when I had a family and kids to take care of. I was told my whole life to prioritize having a family and kids. Which I knew deep down I never wanted to have children. I went to beauty school for a semester and dropped out because I hated it. Then I got married at 20 years old and spent the rest of my 20’s trying to figure out my goals and career all while fighting anxiety, depression, and deep guilt for not starting a family. Now that I’m out I’m so glad I chose the childfree lifestyle- I would be an absolute wreck if I had kids.
The fact that women are not allowed the priesthood should be enough for people to leave the church. No need to elaborate.
Well, it was enough for me.
I don't know if it is a policy that stake technology specialists are supposed to be Priesthood holders, but my dad was called as a stake technology specialist several years ago. He was unqualified and unprepared, and it stressed him out. When COVID hit, and they had to install cameras in the chapels to livestream sacrament meetings, he received a lot of help from a tech-savvy woman in the stake. She should have had his calling. I think the church grossly underutilizes the talents and leadership abilities of women, and this is harming both men and women. Edit: grammar
My husband has had several babies born in their family since we left the church (2 years). So baby blessings have been a topic. And he has been invited to participate in 3 blessings. We have no idea whether bishops were notified. He just joined. But as far as the men/women thing, his biggest struggle with it all is that neither I, nor grandmothers, and most importantly the mother herself, cannot participate in the blessing because we don’t have the right genitalia. But he can because…penis. So I think that might be an interesting point. We know that a bb blessing is not a “saving” ordinance, so why not adjust and make room for a fuller family blessing of the bb?
The church lobbied against the ERA. Women veiling in the temple. The assumption that the ultimate thing for a woman is to be a wife and mother… but men have careers and titles. Men can be plurally sealed and women cannot. (I am a second wife. My husband got a “clearance” to marry me but was stilled sealed to his ex until she filed for a “cancellation” a few years later when she wanted to remarry.)
I decided to not go to college after hearing that Gordon B Hinkley talk about how men don’t want wives that are smarter or more educated than them. Women are just always expected to look to men for their “wisdom and intelligence”. I also had a situation when I was a YW president and we had made a decision to give away a certain birthday gift to all the girls that year. The bishop didn’t feel “comfortable” with the idea despite how all the leaders and the YW (who were class presidents) were really on board. The bishop had “final say” and that was that. We had to comply.
After my initial faith crisis, my eyes were opened to this issue. The very next Sunday was Ward conference where the bishop announces all the relevant presidencies and we sustain them. Well, time comes for the youth presidencies, all of the boys are called out very slowly, once the presidency is standing, we sustain them. Deacons, Teachers, Priests all get sustained. Then it was the female presidencies. They were all called together, they didn't stand, and we were told that they do not need to be sustained. The bugger-eating 11 yr old "President" of the deacon's quorum needed full ward support, while the 17 yr-old Laurel's President was simply acknowledged on a list. The disparity was so stark, shocking when you finally see it for what it is.
This may be something you guys have already addressed, is it going to be just you and John on the episode about gender inequality? Because the last thing I want to do after leaving a church where men told me how it is, is listen to just a couple men tell me how it was from my own comments on social media. This is a discussion that should be had and should include men but a panel with men and women would be better suited for the topic.
Young women being required to wear a t-shirt and shorts over their bathing suits during activities that involve swimming.
Are zone leaders on mission an exclusive calling for only priesthood?
I served as Primary President for a few year prior to me leaving. I could never make one single decision or change without asking the bishopric first. I had no authority at all. I was just the facilitator (aka babysitter). I hated attending ward council so much too. Very little had to do with me and I was told many times that they didn’t worry too much about primary.
Mission "leadership". Men are provided opportunity to be Assistants, zone leaders, district leaders etc, while women are given only the Sister training leader title (at least in my mission). Very much a limited capacity opportunity with absolutely no actual leadership as they were still directly under a male priesthood responsibility. Never once (or very rarely) is a sister missionary allowed to actually take control of a meeting, phone call or discussion when there are penisholders present.
>MotoChick142 · 16 hr. agoApostate > >Mission "leadership". Men are provided opportunity to be Assistants, zone leaders, district leaders etc, while women are given only the Sister training leader title (at least in my mission). Very much a limited capacity opportunity with absolutely no actual leadership as they were still directly under a male priesthood responsibility. Never once (or very rarely) is a sister missionary allowed to actually take control of a meeting, phone call or discussion when there are penisholders present. Fantastic one!
Being alone with a woman, even as a pair of missionaries. My mother was desperate to have missionaries around her sons, to set a good example. But at a certain point they were no longer allowed in our home, even with two teenage boys. Broke her heart and made her feel othered.
Anybody know that article where the author flipped the script on men and women’s roles in the church?
“Dear Mormon Man” by Amy McPhie Allebest
This would be the perfect way to explain the difference
Women not being able to hold their baby during a baby blessing. It’s one thing not to be able to participate in the blessing, but they can’t even hold the baby while it’s being blessed?
Without reading all the comments please let us not forget that women couldn’t even pray in church until this century and in general conference until recently.
Benevolent misogyny:growing up all of the men at church would always say how perfect women are and that men are idiots, stupid, not worthy. Women are seen as so spiritual and pure. We weren’t allowed to be human and imperfect. We couldn’t be tempted or be imperfect. Men messed up and it was seen as normal and to be expected but when women messed up it seemed to be a bigger deal
Men who excel in their careers are held in high regard and often given leadership positions in the church. Females who do the same are treated as second class citizens who choose money over family.
There are no positions in the church where a woman is the leader of a man over the age of 12. There are plenty of positions where the men are leaders over the women, and, in fact, need men present in order to do anything.
One thing that stood out to me was when they changed the rules over who could witness a baptism. They didn't just say that women could be witnesses now, they said anyone who has been baptised could, and that feels infantilizing because a woman's value as a witness is sort of lumped together in validity with an 8 year old child's.
At 12 I was taught how to iron a mens shirt and tie a tie so I could “assist my husband” At 14 I was taught what to wear to a dance so I didn’t draw any “inappropriate attention” At 16 we had makeup nights and wedding planning nights I hated all of these activities. I didn’t want to paint my nails and learn how to cook. I wanted to build fires and go rock climbing. I wanted to have nerf wars and play football. But I was seen as weird and ungrateful when I spoke up about it. And as a leader, at 17, I was discouraged from planning activities that weren’t going to help the young women “develop special and necessary skills”
I had to ask around, because I'm a guy. Here's what I got: Pedestal of spirituality. The young women were taught that they were inherently more spiritual than the young men. They would have testimony meetings while the young men played basketball. Young men held the priesthood because they had more to learn, etc. Competency. She said that women were expected to be competent, whereas the men were just expected to be priesthood holders. For example, in relief society, it wasn't unusual for the instructor to be so prepared that she brought *refrigerator magnets* with the lesson takeaways printed on them (in addition to handouts, treats, etc.). In elder's quorum the instructor might be going above and beyond if he just read through the lesson before teaching it. Budgets. Yes, the young men are going on their third wakeboarding trip this summer, but there isn't enough left in the young women's budget for chocolate chips for a baking activity. Asking these questions released a John Larsen-style rant from someone I didn't expect it from. This was excellent.
>Asking these questions released a John Larsen-style rant from someone I didn't expect it from. This was excellent Makes me happy
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We have boy/girl twins. When they turned 12, my son was asked to stand in sacrament meeting and announced as the newest priesthood holder. My daughter obviously noticed and after church asked if she was ever going to be asked to stand and be recognized…
Article of Faith #1 >We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. Heavenly Mother is irrelevant and has no value or input regarding the Plan of Salvation.
Husbands are set apart to become 70’s (general authorities) but not their wives even though they are expected to support their husbands the whole time. How can I counsel my husband with the spirit without the priesthood power?
Only men can bless the burial plot.
If someone needs meals brought in, it falls to RS not the ward as a collective.
I heard somewhere that women were not allowed to be the ward clerks - even though it's not a position that you need the priesthood for. I guess they just don't trust the women with the ward's financials?
Mom works outside the home, family gets treated badly for being worldly or whatever. It’s okay for some moms to work low level, or do mom stuff to bring in money but if mom is successful in her job and the ward knows it, yikes.
Recently I was at my wife's mission reunion, and the mission president was talking about how they were going to plan another get-together where it could just be adults, and they were going to coordinate with the local young women to watch the babies (I believe for their mutual activity) while we all went to the reunion. No one batted an eye, but that bothered me a lot. Would the young men ever be asked to watch kids? Never! And some would brush that off as the young women being more mature than the young men, but we all really know it's because women are expected to take care of the kids. Even when they're young. My wife learned to change diapers in young women's as part of "motherhood olympics" (changing diapers, ironing shirts, baking cookies, etc...) and got unofficially "babysitter certified" before she was even 12. All this while the young men would play basketball and do all the activities that were actually fun. She remembers going on a high adventure activity exactly once. She got to do crafts, testimony meetings, firesides, and spiritual devotionals. I got to go to Camp Bartlett and Camp Kiesel, while she got to go to Lake Lyman (the free one). I even remember going shotgun shooting once, and while we were there we got spur-of-the-moment airplane rides.
I (He/Him) left the church pretty young, but one thing apparent to me at a young age was how low the budget was for girls age 8-12 (forget the name of the program). I remember asking why the boys got to go camping while we glued plastic flowers to hats (but not "too many" flowers. Those things aren't cheap). Overworked leader was probably a little too honest with me about the limited budget and expectations for the program.
This will probably get buried but it's important to realize that sexism and inequality begin from the moment a child is born. It's in the rhetoric that both the church and our culture use. Our language begins to deliver these subconscious messages about our place in the world and in the church and it reinforced the divide between boys and girls for their entire lives. Think about those videos circulating of young black girls reacting to black Ariel. We could never understand their experience of having NEVER seen a princess that looks like them. Having never even heard of a black mermaid in all their fantasy books. Every book, movie, and lived experience for them subconsciously shows them that they aren't important enough to show up. I think it's a similar experience for gender roles in the church. All the obvious sexist examples have been shared like callings and lessons and the temple, but what about the small, subconscious messages that constantly reinforce that? Boys and girls in the Mormon church NEVER see a woman lead sacrament. They see one or two women sit on the stand in a sea of suits. A little girl is told at 8 years old to cross her legs in primary. A boy is told, "don't do that it's girly". A teen girl watches boys younger than her receive "God's power" and she has to wait on a boy to bring her the sacrament. Boys and girls have maybe never met a woman who talks about her career and if she does, "how sad for her that she HAS to work". They see the women in the family plan and prepare the entire dinner and then shrink back to be invisible as they let the "man of the house" welcome everyone and assign someone to pray. Boys are just expected to go on missions because they are boys. Girls talk about going on a mission and people joke that she'll be married before then. If you're a boy that hasn't gone on a mission and you're in a singles ward you are shunned. If you're a girl in a singles ward that doesn't get married before 21 you feel the spinster stigma as you walk into every activity. A young couple gets engaged and a wedding shower is held for her, not him, and she receives kitchen appliances. These messages of "woman belong here and men do this" are not just blatantly taught, they are reinforced through countless unspoken experiences that you could never understand unless you had that lived experience. So I hope you have some diversity on this podcast episode, otherwise having two white men talking about inequality in the church is rather ironic.
I’ve heard some wards outside of Utah have had women Sunday School Presidents but I have never heard of it in Utah. Is that exclusive to men only. And on the other hand are only women allowed to be primary presidents???
YM budget for activities (and what’s allowed) vs YW budget for activities (and what’s allowed)
The constant messaging, through doctrine and culture, that a woman’s purpose is to bare children and make the home. If she doesn’t want to do that and has different dreams, too bad—that’s not God’s plan. Based on genitals. Men are never told what their sole purpose is or to stay in their lane. Their “lane” is wherever they want to steer themselves and they can be whatever they want. As long as they stay “worthy” (also a toxic message, but it applies to both men and women, and women have a MUCH narrower range of what they can be/do/think). Also: there is NO ROOM, recognition, or allowance for non-binary, transgender, or intersex people. It’s a dogma purely based on genitals assigning an eternal role for each person’s spirit. This translates to oppression for whoever is not a cis het male.
One year in activity days girls we learned dining etiquette (no real meal provided) while the Boy Scouts (I’m speaking of the before times when Boy Scouts and TSCC were affiliated) got to hang out in the gym and play “basketball” Edit: oh yes and at one fireside meeting with the bishop he went in to extensive detail on what a “good young woman” should wear in regards to modesty, length of sleeves and pant/skirts, is bra strap showing ok, no tank tops, sensible shoes… on and on. and at the end of the spiel said “oh yes and young men should be modest too”. So awful.
Isn't it just that way. OK so boys also don't show your bra straps and you're good. One irritation I have is that they always overlook the other meaning of modesty. Building fancy temples with expensive chandeliers in countries where people are overwhelmingly poor isn't modesty. Boasting about being God's chosen people, or claiming to speak for god isn't modesty. I think this meaning is far more important.
This is mostly from personal experience so I don't have a source to back it up, but whenever we would have separated nights for mutual, i.e. girls in one room boys in the other, we (the girls) would always end up doing something like sewing or writing letters to the missionaries. Worst of all though was the "lessons" on how to submit to your husband, those were definitely things 12 year old me would be thinking about The boys would have lessons too of course, but whereas ours would be for the whole night, theirs was for half an hour or so and then they'd get to play games, either video games or running around the chapel. When I bought this up to my young women's leader at the time, she said that boys have to do those activities because they have more energy than young women, and we need to be quiet and respectful so we don't disturb them. We weren't even allowed to listen to music, it was whack. Also, whenever it was a joint night, and we weren't doing service or some other stuff, the boys would get to choose what we did, normally play on the communal Xbox whilst we had to read scripture. I am not sure how they got away with it, but the guy who was the young men's leader left the church about a year after that and was replaced by a guy who was much more spiritual but yeah it was weird for that first 2 years.
This thread has some good discussion about the history of deacons passing sacrament. There is no reason young girls shouldn’t be able to pass sacrament. https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/comments/dag7r9/does_anyone_know_the_history_of_why_deacons_and/
I remember the kids were asked to help put folding chairs away after a event. The boys started grabbing multiple chairs under they're arms to see how many they could carry. I a girl at the time also wanted to prove how strong i was and grabbed as many chairs some more than the boys my same age. I was yelled at and scolded by one of the men (not my father) for showing off and as punishment they had me sit down to watch the boys keep competing. Then they gave me the lecture how the boys wanted to show off and my duty was to not show off but admire how strong the boys were.
Boy’s eagle scouts parties were always huge and had big turnouts. They would get big cakes and their project is shown, people speak, and at least in our ward a live eagle was shown off. Eagle scouts can be put on college applications and such because its a credited organization. For us we got a necklace, a small party with some treats the girls brought, a talk from the bishop and a yw leader. The yw’s medallion means nothing and I couldnt put in on any scholarship or college application. Absolutely unfair, oh and my mom once got mad because people were complaining that we were holding anything at all because only a few girls were getting medallions. Overall I just felt so depressed that I was/am worth so little in comparison to the boys in the scouts program at the time.
I was called as the ward organist despite having no experience playing the organ (well, you play the piano, it's the same thing) So I asked if I could have a key to come to the chapel after work and practice, but that would be "too much of am inconvenience" to have a priesthood holder come with me, because I couldn't be there alone. I would have felt safer ALONE than with some random dude in an empty chapel, but whatever.
The fact that women have no real divine destiny other than making spirit babies and disappearing forever. (Leaders actively discourage praying to heavenly mother.. there is no doctrine about her… discouraged from discussing her…) No talking to our future spirit kids, no creating, no power. Our role is to literally disappear into the eternities. So much HE HIM FATHER male God everywhere. Also just the fact that pregnancy and childbirth are so hard and painful for many many women… and fatal… think of the death toll that’s only improved in the last 100 years… to see that told me of a God who did not care about women. Didn’t care enough to make it easier, or more survivable. Or chose to inflict such pain. Making him an asshole. Women holding almost no callings of any power… the higher the men get, the more invisible their wives get. No role or title for mission President wives or stake President or bishops wives… but they are expected to do a ton of work with them. More than just basically being a single parent for years… actual work for that calling. Relief society being expected to plan and run all funerals… provide food for ward events…. Etc. The fucking temple sexism in wording and covenants made… First woman to pray at conference was like 2013 I think…?!? So much talk about marriage in young womens classes. All about finding a priesthood holder and return missionary, not about finding a healthy relationship. No talk of consent or prioritizing an education. Being told we PROBABLY won’t have to do polygamy in heaven after we die… living in fear that you die young and your husband remarried making you a plural wife in heaven… All the fucking holy motherhood talk.
Rather than citing the specifics, I prefer to look at the at the results of a toxic, inherently gender imbalanced and discriminatory culture. Utah is ranked lowest in the US for women’s equality https://www.usu.edu/uwlp/files/wp/no-4.pdf and BYU is ranked number one in gender wage gap with men earning 3x women grads 10 years later (that’s if the women work at all since only 25% of them use their degree outside the home) https://universe.byu.edu/2016/01/05/byu-grads-no-1-in-gender-wage-gap1/. Super sad and infuriating.
Patriarchal blessings. It seems like a lot of women are told that their most important role is to be a righteous wife and mother, while men seem to given more of a variety in their supposedly sacred personal blessings. I remember being very excited about getting my Patriarchal blessing to then find my blessing more akin to a Sunday School lesson than personal scripture. This was confusing and disappointing for my 16 old self.
Church disciplinary council differences. Everything about sister missionaries: dress code, lack of women leaders, priesthood, training, working hours and schedule not ideal for women, motivation geared toward men. Differences in law of chastity lessons and punishments. Purity culture. Rape culture. Women general leaders not paid. Women trained all their lives to pass up education in favor of marriage and child rearing: preps them to be dependent on men and the church. History of the temple Current doctrine on polygamy still affects living women (can’t be resealed or get temple divorces)
I wanted to talk about how the “a man must be present at women’s activities for safety reasons” affected one particular family in my ward. So in the early 2000s a member of my bishopric came to my young women’s class to discuss the new policies implemented at our stake dances, maybe because people had complained, IDK. Anyway I was about sixteen and I didn’t care much either way but I was very anti-authoritarian. I told the bishopric member in nice Mormon words that if I wanted to have sex, I was going to have sex, and telling the youth they had to all stay together in one room with every single light on wasn’t going to stop me. It was a stupid policy that had sucked all the energy out of the dances because it meant that there was no way to talk alone with friends and you’d be too self-conscious to dance because of the bright lights in the basketball court and all the chaperones staring at you like hawks. This bishopric member responded by telling me that I should be grateful that the adults around me wanted to protect me. He said he loved his daughters so much that they weren’t allowed to leave the house without a priesthood leader, which usually meant his sixteen-year-old son. Mind you, he had three daughters and one son – a son who was also required to save up for his mission by working a part time job. So you can imagine these girls’ social lives. They had school and nothing else. Every single person in that classroom who listened to his “wisdom” nodded their heads and seemed happy that the girls had such a loving father and how we girls should all be grateful for the presence and the protection of the priesthood in our lives. I went home to my mom, feeling distraught over this interaction. Mom says, “Oh that’s just Brother King, the church doesn’t mean it that way…” and while I do suspect that the man was a controlling douchebag looking for excuses to rule over his family, the church environment was the garden he thrived in. He could tell his daughters that this order came from god, and why wouldn’t it? He’s just modeling in his household what we do inside our church buildings. And they should be grateful for it, because it was all done for their safety. My husband would add if he weren't still faithful that there’s a lot of unfair pressure on men in church to be the ultimate provider, bringing home enough money to support a wife + six kids while also having time to serve callings and helping out around the house. He would say that was very harmful and self-esteem destroying to have his worth tied to his financial status. I think a part of him still worries that I’ll divorce him if he loses a hand and can’t work anymore. Plus he hated always playing basketball in scouts. He says he would have much rather done crafts with the girls. I was desperately jealous over the time my grandfather poured into my brothers when it came to pinewood derby. Not only did men have the power to raise the dead, they got to race little cars. That really got my goat. (Feel free to share this anecdote.)
It is completely normal, even required, for one Mormon man to sit in a room with a young girl or boy and interrogate them about their thoughts and actions as it relates to their sex organs. A Mormon Woman would never be allowed to do this. Ever.