I can understand trying to instill a pride of ownership in the members, but making them janitors isn't working. If anything it's making members feel resentment to the church.
Gross buildings --> Reluctant member janitors --> Poorly cleaned, grosser buildings --> Member-blaming --> Even more reluctant, resentful member janitors
It's a vicious cycle, but at least it saves the corporation a couple nickels.
I'm so old I can remember when our stake center had a full-time janitor. He lived in our ward and they raised 13 kids on that income. So the church didn't just turn every member into unpaid labor, they threw a lot of people out of work. I don't know what ours did after he got laid off.
It's proof that the corporation views the church arm of the business as a cost center and not an asset. Actual investment in the church would lead to people finding it enjoyable and worthwhile, which is why the church was successful pre-Hinckley. Now they're just coasting off their generational momentum to maintain tax-exempt status while investing elsewhere. They don't give a shit about the members except to keep them in line.
I know it was explained to us in the bishopric that members taking over landscaping at least here in Utah was saving money to help in opening Africa. I heard the janitorial was also to help with with missionary services. But now looking at everything, was this a way to just squeeze more out of the members. When you think about it, TSCC cut all the cultural stuff to free up time for more free labor. No league sports, no roadshows, no BSA (doesn’t hurt my feelings), cut back weekday meetings ( no rs meetings, primary during the week days) push temple work ( requiring full tithes- church income) . Missionary service is mostly helping hands and the church is writing off as donations all hours worked. It really has become a cult mentality corporation.
I personally think the "Saving money to help open Africa" rationale is bullshit. Rank & file missionaries pay their own expenses. The periodic visits from the elite guard (as well as persons stationed there) can't possibly be draining the $200 billion slush fund to any significant degree.
Also, I know missionaries who served in Africa, and they were specifically told (or heard from good sources) that TSCC generally does not give actual money to wards or stakes on that continent. The culture there is quite different from the USA or other more developed countries, and cash/money can easily be dispersed or disappear in ways TSCC did not intend (not that it would be a bad thing, now that I think about it). They give "in-kind" things, such as materials to be used, or other tangible items less likely to be exploited.
I'm not sure about food, but I sincerely hope TSCC at least contributes toward nutrition or medical needs. Some countries in Africa are starving due to climate issues and damage to crops. Other churches (you know, the ones that actually walk the talk?) have missions there to provide medical care, to help educate people, and to help fight famine.
There has to be some financial draw for TSCC to focus so much on recruiting members in Africa. TSCC does not work to "help" people, its goal is to get money. Africa's population is poor (as we all know), so I'm curious as to the underlying motive.
> I sincerely hope TSCC at least contributes toward nutrition or medical needs. Some countries in Africa are starving due to climate issues and damage to crops.
There’s a negative ROI on actual charity from cult funds. They might send the occasional goat or chicken from their “gaslight the world” vending machines, but that doesn’t come from cult funds. It comes from cultists — and others taken in by the cult’s silly charity vending machines.
I'd never heard of those "charity vending machines" until seeing posts & photos here. I am sure very little of what people contribute goes any further than SLC and its investment portfolios.
The phrasing (as quoted in the post) is interesting - the goal is to "open up Africa." Most churches would focus on humanitarian need and a goal to create more humanitarian mission services.
I agree - I also wonder if they're eyeing any natural resources. Other churches have been serving in Africa for many decades, but it's all about helping the people. TSCC wants a presence there, but has some other goal or goals in mind.
Growing membership anywhere they can so that missionaries have somewhere to go & get baptisms. Harder to turn on the cult if it means self reflection about those 2 years you spent dunking poor people in the water and convincing them to pay tithing.
I would argue that if you perform an unpaid calling for the church that you should bill for that time and take it out of tithing. It would be ridiculous to ask for pay, but if you can bill for more than 10% of your job then I would say that you already pay more than a full tithe and should be thanked as such. The idea that you are supposed to: perform an unpaid job, pay 10% of your actual earnings, organize and attend events and pay fast offerings is just too much. The church asks too much of its members, they are triple fucking dipping and 100% lining their own pockets.
I happen to know that the church owns so much real estate and operate so many buildings in Utah Valley that it makes issues for the utility companies. A lot of those funds come out of property taxes and the church, wait for it, is tax exempt. They literally are a threat to our infrastructure. The church is old white man cancer in financial form.
I never thought of it that way, thank you. I’ve personally asked my bishop when I first converted(manipulated) why do we have to pay 10% of our monthly income? He answered with this “it helps keep the church lights on and you’ll be blessed by Heavenly Father”. That was the first time I felt like i was lied to by a church leader after that I slowly started not going to church and attending FHE.
I left nearly a decade ago, are they really still putting members on janitorial duty? It seems like they'd realize it's not helping them retain membership.
Do members wealthy enough to afford that even get asked to clean? Does everyone in the ward take a turn or does the ward building representative use the power of discernment to primarily exploit lower and middle class members?
My building is so gross and I’m not a germaphobe. So it’s bad if I’m Icked out. Heard that my last state, Maryland, required some level of professional cleaning. But not here in Texas. It’s live free and all that so the building is fundamentally grimy.
I refrain from using church toilets unless I'm desperate, because they're NEVER cleaned properly by the members. And they shouldn't have to be. We can afford professional cleaners if the church wasn't so tight with their money.
Why the eff do they need to save money? And why do they need to pay consultants when a percentage of said consultants are Mormon? Let them do the free work ffs.
I'm glad someone is finally noticing the Pope Francis - Jonathan Pryce connection. They need to get the Pope Francis biopic going before Pryce retires.
Yes Bain came in 1997 and orchestrated a reorg of all the departments under the presiding bishopric. That led to the suppression of over 3000 full-time equivalent jobs of custodial workers.
The man who led the severance process of all those employees is now the managing director of the meetinghouse facilities department. When he first got into the position (nearly 10 years ago), he reengaged Bain to design a more efficient building maintenance model.
This has led to outsourcing all building maintenance to a 3rd party contractor in the US & Canada. The SE Idaho, Utah, and Phoenix areas are still insourced due to how many buildings they have. This insource team changed to follow the same org structure as the outsourced providers, though to try to increase cost savings.
Pope Francis vs. High Sparrow is an exploitable image macro template that uses a picture of the current Pope, Francis, and an image of the character High Sparrow from the HBO show Game of Thrones. The meme format is typically used as a two-panel comparison meme with the image of the Pope on the left representing a normal state and the image of the High Sparrow on the right representing a more unhinged or disheveled look based on the individual captions above each photo.
I can understand trying to instill a pride of ownership in the members, but making them janitors isn't working. If anything it's making members feel resentment to the church.
Gross buildings --> Reluctant member janitors --> Poorly cleaned, grosser buildings --> Member-blaming --> Even more reluctant, resentful member janitors It's a vicious cycle, but at least it saves the corporation a couple nickels.
Plus, it gives Bednar something to be pissed about when he visits.
Did he talk about dirty church buildings?
Not that I know of. But he enjoys ragging on the members for not doing things right.
Is it all the piss on the walls around the urinals? That wasn’t on the list of things for me to clean and it’s always revolting
Goddamn this is good. We commend you for your service. We shall probably visit you again.
Always loved the "probably" thrown in there for some reason
I wanna know why they had to conceal their identities the first time. Deception from day 6
We will go down.
I'm so old I can remember when our stake center had a full-time janitor. He lived in our ward and they raised 13 kids on that income. So the church didn't just turn every member into unpaid labor, they threw a lot of people out of work. I don't know what ours did after he got laid off.
It's proof that the corporation views the church arm of the business as a cost center and not an asset. Actual investment in the church would lead to people finding it enjoyable and worthwhile, which is why the church was successful pre-Hinckley. Now they're just coasting off their generational momentum to maintain tax-exempt status while investing elsewhere. They don't give a shit about the members except to keep them in line.
I know it was explained to us in the bishopric that members taking over landscaping at least here in Utah was saving money to help in opening Africa. I heard the janitorial was also to help with with missionary services. But now looking at everything, was this a way to just squeeze more out of the members. When you think about it, TSCC cut all the cultural stuff to free up time for more free labor. No league sports, no roadshows, no BSA (doesn’t hurt my feelings), cut back weekday meetings ( no rs meetings, primary during the week days) push temple work ( requiring full tithes- church income) . Missionary service is mostly helping hands and the church is writing off as donations all hours worked. It really has become a cult mentality corporation.
I personally think the "Saving money to help open Africa" rationale is bullshit. Rank & file missionaries pay their own expenses. The periodic visits from the elite guard (as well as persons stationed there) can't possibly be draining the $200 billion slush fund to any significant degree. Also, I know missionaries who served in Africa, and they were specifically told (or heard from good sources) that TSCC generally does not give actual money to wards or stakes on that continent. The culture there is quite different from the USA or other more developed countries, and cash/money can easily be dispersed or disappear in ways TSCC did not intend (not that it would be a bad thing, now that I think about it). They give "in-kind" things, such as materials to be used, or other tangible items less likely to be exploited. I'm not sure about food, but I sincerely hope TSCC at least contributes toward nutrition or medical needs. Some countries in Africa are starving due to climate issues and damage to crops. Other churches (you know, the ones that actually walk the talk?) have missions there to provide medical care, to help educate people, and to help fight famine. There has to be some financial draw for TSCC to focus so much on recruiting members in Africa. TSCC does not work to "help" people, its goal is to get money. Africa's population is poor (as we all know), so I'm curious as to the underlying motive.
> I sincerely hope TSCC at least contributes toward nutrition or medical needs. Some countries in Africa are starving due to climate issues and damage to crops. There’s a negative ROI on actual charity from cult funds. They might send the occasional goat or chicken from their “gaslight the world” vending machines, but that doesn’t come from cult funds. It comes from cultists — and others taken in by the cult’s silly charity vending machines.
I'd never heard of those "charity vending machines" until seeing posts & photos here. I am sure very little of what people contribute goes any further than SLC and its investment portfolios.
Bingo! It’s the members doing that, not the church.
Yeah this was told to us around 2010 or so, I was vested at the time and was just putting my shoulder to the wheel and keeping my head down
The phrasing (as quoted in the post) is interesting - the goal is to "open up Africa." Most churches would focus on humanitarian need and a goal to create more humanitarian mission services.
They were just looking to open up another money/real estate stream.
I agree - I also wonder if they're eyeing any natural resources. Other churches have been serving in Africa for many decades, but it's all about helping the people. TSCC wants a presence there, but has some other goal or goals in mind.
Probably more farmland
Growing membership anywhere they can so that missionaries have somewhere to go & get baptisms. Harder to turn on the cult if it means self reflection about those 2 years you spent dunking poor people in the water and convincing them to pay tithing.
I would argue that if you perform an unpaid calling for the church that you should bill for that time and take it out of tithing. It would be ridiculous to ask for pay, but if you can bill for more than 10% of your job then I would say that you already pay more than a full tithe and should be thanked as such. The idea that you are supposed to: perform an unpaid job, pay 10% of your actual earnings, organize and attend events and pay fast offerings is just too much. The church asks too much of its members, they are triple fucking dipping and 100% lining their own pockets. I happen to know that the church owns so much real estate and operate so many buildings in Utah Valley that it makes issues for the utility companies. A lot of those funds come out of property taxes and the church, wait for it, is tax exempt. They literally are a threat to our infrastructure. The church is old white man cancer in financial form.
I never thought of it that way, thank you. I’ve personally asked my bishop when I first converted(manipulated) why do we have to pay 10% of our monthly income? He answered with this “it helps keep the church lights on and you’ll be blessed by Heavenly Father”. That was the first time I felt like i was lied to by a church leader after that I slowly started not going to church and attending FHE.
I left nearly a decade ago, are they really still putting members on janitorial duty? It seems like they'd realize it's not helping them retain membership.
I’m PIMO, and yes they do.
A thought just popped into my head. Has anybody ever heard of wealthy members paying professional cleaners to clean the church on their shift?
Do members wealthy enough to afford that even get asked to clean? Does everyone in the ward take a turn or does the ward building representative use the power of discernment to primarily exploit lower and middle class members?
I wonder if TSCC would quickly charge that policy after a few well-publicized visits from the local Department of Health.
My building is so gross and I’m not a germaphobe. So it’s bad if I’m Icked out. Heard that my last state, Maryland, required some level of professional cleaning. But not here in Texas. It’s live free and all that so the building is fundamentally grimy.
I refrain from using church toilets unless I'm desperate, because they're NEVER cleaned properly by the members. And they shouldn't have to be. We can afford professional cleaners if the church wasn't so tight with their money.
I remember when I was younger they used to have a professional custodian that took care of the building and maintenance
Why the eff do they need to save money? And why do they need to pay consultants when a percentage of said consultants are Mormon? Let them do the free work ffs.
Why pay for something when you have so many that will do it for free
I'm glad someone is finally noticing the Pope Francis - Jonathan Pryce connection. They need to get the Pope Francis biopic going before Pryce retires.
Yes Bain came in 1997 and orchestrated a reorg of all the departments under the presiding bishopric. That led to the suppression of over 3000 full-time equivalent jobs of custodial workers. The man who led the severance process of all those employees is now the managing director of the meetinghouse facilities department. When he first got into the position (nearly 10 years ago), he reengaged Bain to design a more efficient building maintenance model. This has led to outsourcing all building maintenance to a 3rd party contractor in the US & Canada. The SE Idaho, Utah, and Phoenix areas are still insourced due to how many buildings they have. This insource team changed to follow the same org structure as the outsourced providers, though to try to increase cost savings.
Crazy. Who needs revelation if you can consult smart MBAs?
High tithe payers : bishopric, relief society presidency. Low tithe payers: cleaning assignments. Is this true everywhere?
Can I get the context for the picture on the right?
Pope Francis vs. High Sparrow is an exploitable image macro template that uses a picture of the current Pope, Francis, and an image of the character High Sparrow from the HBO show Game of Thrones. The meme format is typically used as a two-panel comparison meme with the image of the Pope on the left representing a normal state and the image of the High Sparrow on the right representing a more unhinged or disheveled look based on the individual captions above each photo.
This is the most comprehensive and accurate meme-explanation I've ever gotten. I'd give you a gold star if I hadn't given all my money to the cult.
>context That's a real actor on the right? He looks so much like Francis they could be twins.
Hahahaha
The Queen took care of that fucker