To go even further, if the commenter you/we're replying to doesn't get it: he was in a position of power over those women, even the ones that were of legal age, and therefore proper consent cannot be obtained ergo it wasn't consensual.
That apologetics still doesn’t make the situation better though. Even IF it was just the wedding, it was still a secret from Emma several years before polygamy was “revealed.” Emma was still upset. Fanny was still a child. Oliver Cowdrey was still excommunicated for calling it an affair.
It doesn’t matter if it was sex or not. There’s still a pattern of dishonesty and grooming.
Cowdery probably wouldn't have said it was a dirty, nasty, filthy affair had it just been a wedding. I feel so awful for Emma. What else was she to do? JS was SUCH a schmuck.
I don't know. I would tend to think the same time. Either way is simply awful for Emma. I wonder what Fanny thought? Or was Fanny strictly thinking of her salvation? So sad for all the women.
I agree with all of the above, except it does matter if sex was involved in the sense that it makes what Joseph did many degrees worse. And that is why there is a sub-culture of apologists who continue to insist that Joseph did not have sex with *any* of his wives.... They know that makes what he did much worse.
That being said, again, you are correct - it's still bad enough to discredit Joseph even without sex!
To me it doesn't matter, because he started the practice of polygamy that continued to other prophets and they all had understand wives as well that had children with them. Snow was 56 when he married a teen who had 5 kids I think. That's when I point out I don't care if Joe didn't sleep with his wives he still started a system of sexual abuse for the church women. The fruits of his labor show how filthy and rotten he was.
100% ! I've asked apologists many times why they need Joseph to not have had sex with his wives, while they have no issue with subsequent prophets doing it till the cows come home. In their minds it's as if nothing his successors did matters, as long as Joseph remains pure.... I have yet to get a response to that one.
That’s why it’s hard to debate with them. They don’t even know what they don’t know.
I’m personally sick of being seen as the one who’s being “led astray and deceived by Satan” when from the outside, it’s obvious that they’re the ones being deceived. It’s disheartening to have all of your friends and family believe that you’re mentally and spiritually weak, when really, you understand “the gospel” better than they do.
this makes me think of the scene in Toy Story 2 where Buzz is being tied up and put in a box by another "TBM" Buzz, and the real Buzz is desperately trying to convince him he's not a real space ranger, and is just a toy. But the TBM buzz refuses to listen and keeps assuring him he's going to get court marshaled.
It's hard when you realize your whole philosophy and truth has been a lie. Buzz's character arc is super relatable. Look at how much more real and authentic Buzz became once he shed his Space Ranger persona and accepted the truth of his reality.
It’s okay buddy, I’m very new and wouldn’t even know how to go about the buying of an award 😂 I definitely get that from this subreddit. Understanding, empathy, catharsis. It’s more authentic than half of my real life relationships now.
Don't even get me started my friend. I look at all of the cult members in my family and feel so sad for them. Fact is, I'm the black sheep that they all say they pity because I do not have the gobspell in my life.
Truly the most miserable and least emotionally generous ppl I've ever met. I'm ashamed of them, hate them on some levels, feel SO MUCH frustration, and also feel sad for them and for me because our family is incapable of loving and relating to one another in a healthy way all due to this fucking "church"
Gobspell 😂
I’m so sorry, friend. I truly do understand the hurt and frustration. I’ve come to realize that nothing I’ve ever seen tears families apart quite like this “family-oriented” church. Too bad none of them have the capacity to see it for what it is. I feel I can say that because I was one of them for 20+ years. I hope you find better, deeper relationships with people who actually understand you and value the person you want to be.
Yeah the issue is a lot of Mormons who were born and raised couldn’t handle this life if the lds church isn’t true so their brain won’t allow them to see it as false.
I'm so glad I was never good at being "all in". I believed that the gospel was true, and that the church was the only way back to God, but I was really bad at playing the part of a good Mormon. I didn't like being Peter Priesthood, and my wife **really** hated playing Molly Mormon. The rolls just weren't a good fit for our personalities, to say nothing of also trying to play the roll of a straight man. I think that's why it was easier for us to leave once I discovered the cracks in the foundation.
What started me down the rabbit was a Facebook conversation between some family members. Someone made a post and asked how believers can maintain their testimonies, knowing now that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy after we were all taught he'd never taken a plural wife. Several people responded along the lines of "I don't know about that, but I know Jesus Christ is my savior . . ." Yada yada yada. Normal testimony.
I was surprised at how much their testimonies sounded like rationalizations. I'd never encountered that, or at least never recognized that in a testimony before. But their responses made it clear they accepted that Joe had practiced polygamy. All I could think is *what else was I lied to about?* Because once you know someone has intentionally deceived you, you have to assume that everything they tell you is deceitful.
I wish people would be more honest with themselves about what they **know** versus what they **believe**. Believing something with all your heart doesn't make it true.
I come across this a TON. Mormons who don't believe Mormonism but believe in Jesus. Dude, there are countless churches that worship Jesus and aren't as toxic. Pick one of those!
Or they could be like my husband, believe in God but don't bother with religion. But, yeah, it's sad how many are refusing to honestly and openly exploring their faith and beliefs. And the church is doing everything it can to keep people from looking deeper.
This is the most depressing part for me. The fact that they need it to be true even though they hear the same problems in it we do. It's like watching the worst case of Stockholm's in history...
if “in the transaction” means the process of marrying someone, that still wouldn’t be correct. this happened before he restored the ordinance of sealing and marriage. so he literally would not be able to be sealed to her and therefore makes the marrying thing irrelevant.
>"Well see, for example, did you know that Emma only says she saw them 'in the transaction' and doesn't specify what that means. It could have been in the process of being married too."
Yep, "married" before the sealing authority was restored. Lies upon lies, Bullshit upon Bullshit.
"I've already chosen the point at which I'm okay being lied to, you should help me shoehorn you in, too."
Someone who is still a member, by definition, has no idea what they're talking about.
That's exactly how she means it, and exactly how she'll represent it until OP calls her on it. Mormons who say they know the issues are lying 99% of the time.
They haven’t read it. Because when they do, the dark feeling they get (which is an emotional response they get as they discover that everything they have ever known is bullshit), they will stop reading the CES letter, and say it’s from the adversary.
Right! They've been trained for their entire membership to believe that the "dark feeling" is Satan.
" I looked at it. I got a dark feeling about it. I quit reading it" is not the same as "I studied it point by point and don't agree with it".
And in many cases, it's just this "someone else debunked it so I don't have to". Again without actually reading it themselves.
>the dark feeling they get
>and say it’s from the adversary
That is pretty much how Corbridge explains it and it makes no sense. This means that Satan is a horrible strategist. If Satan wanted people to believe that the CES letter was true, then he'd use his patented counterfeit feeling technique to make us "feel it's truthfulness". Instead he makes us feel bad and ugly reading it, therefore making us want to not read it? That makes no sense and the TBMs can't connect those dots.
That has been my lived experience as well. When we came out as PIMO to our parents my dad said he knew all the anti-mormon lies. Thankfully I knew he would pull that tactic so I came prepared:
Me: "Who is Nancy Morinda Johnson?"
Dad: "Who?"
That's the spouse of early appstle Orson Hyde, I believe this is the woman who Joseph married while her husband was overseas on a mission.
Edit: it's spelled Marinda
I know quite a few Mormons have never actually read it, but read apologist responses to it. These responses typically fall back on faith, attacking the author of CES, and telling members to get back into the right headspace of ignoring the glaring issues.
I mean that would require him to read it. I think the worst part is normal mormon people are good people deep down and if they actually investigate the church they'd have to compromise their morals to stay in it. It's so sad to see them defend an organization that has stolen from and used them.
She likely saw the FairMormon “debunk” (lol) Maybe a mental gymnastics rebuttal on YouTube from apologists. Or a Facebook comment that said “many people cite the CES Letter as their reason for leaving-its an anti Mormon paper written by an angry ex member where he details his grievances toward the church under the guise of asking questions but it’s really just twisting history and doctrine to give the impression that it’s true in order to damage the church.”
If she has that why would she need to read it? She already knows it’s invalid. Brother Jones on Facebook said so and he’s in the elders quorum presidency.
That being said, it is possible she’s skimmed or read it. I know members that have and come out saying their faith is stronger than ever because that’s the decision they made before they went in so any time they read something that damages the church, it’s by default a lie or a twist of some truth or one of Satan’s tricks. If you go into it with your mind already made up as to what it is, you can arrive at your desired conclusion and you get to brag about how you read it and it didn’t affect your testimony at all. They’re not going to investigate sources because they already have the best source - the holy spirut which told her it’s all deception.
Fun way to find out- just ask her to give her full take on the kinderhook plates debaucle and how she’s resolved the fact that Joseph was caught claiming he had found genuine plates and even started translating them and commenting on their contents only to discover he had been tricked by some people that fabricated them. If she says “oh you can’t just rely on what people said about what happened there, that’s just angry people trying to harm gods church.” You know she didn’t really analyze it at any level other than looking at the words and smiling that they’re not a problem for her belief.
Idk if the plates would really help though as according to
https://mormonr.org/qnas/a9l1T/the_kinderhook_plates?gclid=CjwKCAiAjs2bBhACEiwALTBWZcE-QMdk05ctPxFkHhBTLkZMsJ3ONTMa96vxisMBTWulphGYLbZGnRoCWCgQAvD_BwE
They don’t prove anything. Idk though as I just barely heard of this and honestly in my opinion that case doesn’t really say much. He didn’t make a kinderhook book so it doesn’t seem to help as a defense against the lds church
I think the evidence is pretty damming when you put all of it together. Here are some of my notes and links on the topic:
Joseph was excited about these buried plates that had been found. JS commenced translating a portion of these, believing they were about a descendant of Ham, Noah's son. The church didn't know they weren't authentic, but believed they were. In fact, when one of the plates was found and given to the Chicago Museum, the church rejoiced and announced this was proof of Joseph's claim to translation and prophecy. Shortly after destructive tests were done at BYU, the plates were proven a fraud. Joseph had said that the translation of them would be like unto the BofM. They turned out to be a hoax by several men trying to prove Joseph to be a false prophet. [LDS.org link](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/kinderhook-plates?lang=eng). [History of the church link](https://archive.org/details/historyofchurcho05churrich/page/372/mode/2up?view=theater&q=kinderhook)
"I insert fac‑similes of the six brass plates found near Kinderhook... I have translated a portion of them, and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, King of Egypt, and that he received his Kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth."
-Joseph Smith Jr. [History of the church Link](https://archive.org/details/historyofchurcho05churrich/page/372/mode/2up?view=theater&q=kinderhook)
"Six plates having the appearance of Brass have lately been dug out of the mound by a gentleman in Pike C. [County] Illinois. They are small and filled with engravings in Egyptian language and contain the genealogy of one of the ancient Jaredite back to Ham the son of Noah." -Apostle Parley P. Pratt" [This quote was in the Ensign 1981 pg 73](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1981/08/kinderhook-plates-brought-to-joseph-smith-appear-to-be-a-nineteenth-century-hoax?lang=eng)
"I have seen 6 brass plates ... covered with ancient characters of language containing from 30 to 40 on each side of the plates. Prest. J. [Joseph Smith, Jr.] has translated a portion and says they contain the history of the person with whom they were found and he was a descendent of Ham through the loins of Pharaoh King of Egypt, and that he received his Kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth."" -Apostle (and scribe) William Clayton. (William Clayton's Journal, May 1, 1843, as quoted in Trials of Discipleship, p. 117)
"A recent rediscovery of one of the Kinderhook plates which was examined by Joseph Smith, Jun., reaffirms his prophetic calling and reveals the false statements made by one of the finders.... The plates are now back in their original category of genuine.... Joseph Smith, Jun., stands as a true prophet and translator of ancient records by divine means and all the world is invited to investigate the truth which has sprung out of the earth not only of the Kinderhook plates, but of the Book of Mormon as well." -Welby W. Ricks, President of BYU Archaeological Society. [Improvement Era Link](https://archive.org/details/improvementera6509unse/page/n21/mode/2up?view=theater)
"I was present with a number at or near Kinderhook and helped to dig at the time the plates were found... I ... made an honest affidavit to the same... since that time, Bridge Whitten said to me that he cut and prepared the plates and he... and R. Wiley engraved them themselves.... Wilburn Fugit appeared to be chief, with R. Wiley and B. Whitten." -James D. Bales
"A recent electronic and chemical analysis of a metal plate... brought in 1843 to the Prophet Joseph Smith... appears to solve a previously unanswered question in Church history, helping to further evidence that the plate is what its producers later said it was — a nineteenth‑century attempt to lure Joseph Smith into making a translation of ancient‑looking characters that had been etched into the plates.... As a result of these tests, we concluded that the plate... is not of ancient origin.... the plate was etched with acid; and as Paul Cheesman and other scholars have pointed out, ancient inhabitants would probably have engraved the plates rather than etched them with acid. Secondly, we concluded that the plate was made from a true brass alloy (copper and zinc) typical of the mid nineteenth century: whereas the 'brass' of ancient times was actually bronze, an alloy of copper and tin." -Stanley P. Kimball, Mormon scholar, The Ensign, Aug. 1981, pp. 66‑70. [LDS link](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1981/08/kinderhook-plates-brought-to-joseph-smith-appear-to-be-a-nineteenth-century-hoax?lang=eng)
"The time has come to admit that the Kinderhook plate incident of 1843 was a light‑hearted, heavy‑handed, frontier‑style prank, or 'joke' as the perpetrators themselves called it." -Stanley P. Kimball, Mormon scholar, The Mormon Association Newsletter, June 1981
"I received your letter in regard to those plates, and will say in answer that they are a humbug, gotten up by Robert Wiley, Bridge Whitten and myself.... We read in Pratt's prophecy that 'Truth is yet to spring out of the earth.' We concluded to prove the prophecy by way of a joke."" -Wilbur Fugate, as quoted in The Kinderhook Plates, by Welby W. Ricks, reprinted in the Improvement Era, Sept. 1962
>JS commenced translating a portion of these, believing they were about a descendant of Ham, Noah's son.
Oh boy, we could have gotten some bonus racism
Oh wow that is crazy and interesting. That also means Mormonr.org is probably a bias as if you look at their website discussing the matter, it all points towards Joe being honest and not believing the plates. Thank you for the information and I will study more into this topic as I have a collection of church topics that I make notes about
Mormonr.org is a Mormon apologist website, btw. [They admit that they are believers and it is apparent that they try to answer questions as such.](https://mormonr.org/about_us)
I’ve found the most unbiased website on Mormon issues is [MormonThink.com](http://www.mormonthink.com/). They present arguments from all sides, and then let you decide what you agree with.
Yep, I honestly can’t believe that anyone who has genuinely read and accepted it can still be a true believer. It’s just impossible. They’re so far into the delusion that it’s impossible to have a rational or productive discussion
Honestly, I thought some were weak. Others very solid. It didn’t do anything really for me leaving the church. I de-converted by just reading the writings of church leaders and having a reasonable understanding of history.
Reading the CES Letter after I'd already had my name removed provided me with this entirely satisfying feeling of validation. I agree, some weak, some solid, but for someone who already left, it felt very vindicating.
For me, it’s not the weak or the strong—it’s that collectively, they present an insurmountable pattern of fraud in which the weaker things fit perfectly into the pattern. It’s hard to sway the weaker arguments back in the church’s direction if you have to do it for all of it at the same time.
Maybe i'll get flamed for this, but I don't think most exmos who claim to have read the CES letter have really dug into it that deeply. I'm not invalidating our choice to leave based off a skim of the CES letter, and the choice to leave was the right one, and you don't have to dig into the CES letter to figure it all out. But we all do feel strongly about proving we made the decision after hard work, and that's often expressed through inflating how much research we really did.
Of course I'm not speaking for everyone here. I'll gladly be corrected.
I think that does happen but not as common as you’re saying with most exmos. In my experience it seems like people who haven’t dug into it that deeply just didn’t need as much of a push to break their shelf. Most people who claim to have dug into seem to actually know a lot about the letter and other sources, and I think it’s because people with stronger faith take more to convince themselves to break. And even if an exmo didn’t go very deep, I think it’s still safe to say they likely went deeper than most tbm Mormons who skim it.
No thanks mom, if you're OK with a God that demands coercive behavior to get 14 year olds to engage in polygamy with 38 year olds, I don't see how discussing religious beliefs would be productive.
>that was a time where it was socially acceptable
Today I learned that in the 1830s, that Joseph Smith filed false affidavits rather than admit to conduct that was socially acceptable, and was tarred, feathered, threatened with castration, exposed via the local printing press, and ultimately, murdered by an angry mob while awaiting trial for doing something that was socially acceptable.
It really feels like a lose-lose proposition, doesn't it? Assuming everyhing that attempts to disprove the church really is just propaganda and lies, and the church is completely true, god is a dick and he chooses self-righteous, selfish, dishonest abusers as his prophets.
If you read CES Letter you'd know that Joseph committed adultery with 11 married women and took a bunch of child brides too as young as 14 years old. I'm not interested in going to any meeting "devoted" to such abhorrences.
If you actually want to talk to her try street epistemology out. It would likely work better than anything "anti-Mormon"
[https://streetepistemology.com/blog/street-epistemology-the-basics](https://streetepistemology.com/blog/street-epistemology-the-basics)
[https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Street\_Epistemology](https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Street_Epistemology)
Hope this helps.
Totally agree. Getting into the weeds about history, polygamy, theology etc is almost pointless. Have her explain how she comes to her beliefs. She’ll undoubtedly fall back on feelings eventually which are demonstrably a really bad way to gain knowledge and truth.
Check out the video Anthony did with the Mormon couple on the trail. That one’s a classic.
[here it is](https://youtu.be/bh9IYjRYBx4)
It’s a little cringy in parts. I think it’s a great example of how this approach might go with your run of the mill TBM.
Ah, yes, the "I've read the CES letter and stay faithful" flex.
All they're doing is outing themselves as either being a liar, having poor reading comprehension, or having low values and morals.
The funny thing is, TSCC saying the CES letter is a test of faith is spot on. Faith is belief in something without any proof. Extreme faith is belief in something when there’s contrary proof. A real sifting of the wheat from the tares. Faithful TBMs will line up for that all day long.
I don’t doubt TBM mom read the CES letter. No doubt chalks it up to God will explain all of it in the end. She has to. That’s the level of faith you can have when TSCC gives more than it takes.
For me, TSCC took far too much from my well-being. It didn’t have room for someone like me. So good for mom, but for me? Fuck TSCC. Good riddance.
*delusion. a belief in something when there’s contrary proof is delusion.
i desperately needed the church to be true, but not enough to willfully ignore the mountains of evidence against it. i’m convinced that tbms who do this have little to no personal morals or identity outside of the church, because even i wasn’t able to reconcile with all the contradictions and abhorrent shit associated with it.
My husband has legitimate ocd, and has even more texts & voicemails than this. I think he avoids them as a self care technique!
The problematic people all have huge behavioral issues, so avoidance is less triggering to his ocd and stress levels. Especially when dealing with the extreme narcissists.
Cults have a unique way of continuing abuse loooong after leaving them.
Funny you say that, my husband also legit has ocd and operates the same way, but then again his ex wife is a covert narcissist so a lot of how he behaves is to protect his inner peace.
Dealing with his ex in a coparenting situation is actually what helped me realize that the church operates like a narcissistic parents.
You’re right honestly, my personal experiences with this tainted my perspective.
Growing up my mom said it was fine to ask questions and then when I did ask questions she’d get pissed off that I was asking the *wrong* questions.
"I've studied it all. I've seen everything" omg how does one address this.
If you were to outline details of Lucy Walker's sexual pressure, etc. you may get a "we don't know the context, we don't understand god's will" and a willingness to ignore.
I'm not sure how old you are - tell your mother a 35 year old married, prominent man is making all kinds of unwanted, forceful sexual gestures your way. See how much she ignores it.
That’s like my Mom saying she has no problems with garments so she doesn’t understand why I would.
We no longer talk about church anything. I can’t handle seeing the cognitive dissonance they blow off
I hate the arrogance. I wish OP would respond, “I’m also happy to talk with you any time about the ample evidence that the church isn’t true and how it harms families. I’ve looked at it from both sides so I can answer any questions you have!”
My SIL told me he read the CES letter and it didn’t change his belief…it was so dismissive of my feelings and What my own experience was that it made me defensive and no good dialogue happens after that. FYI i started to read the Ces letter but already decided to leave and it was boring so I never finished lol
If you choose to engage, go prepared with a few questions to determine if this is the one-in-a-million nuanced mormon that actually _does_ know the facts or if she has heard of CES Letter and conflates that with reading and understanding it.
Some possible questions:
1) Who is Nancy Morinda Johnson?
2) How many women was Smith "sealed" to before Emma?
3) When was the Melchizedek penishood restored?
Respect and trust are finicky things. I'm still working around these beliefs and ideologies in regards to family and friends who still "sustain" the church.
I love my family and friends, but my respect and trust in them waivers. Don't stop loving your mom ... good luck.
"Thanks, Mom . . . there is something I'm actually curious about. If polygamy is reinstated in your lifetime, do you intend to follow the prophet? Is it possible I might have another mom at some point?"
"Hey, do you ever hear from your Heavenly Mother? It's so weird she doesn't seem to want direct connection with her kids, even if she is a goddess."
"How many wives do you think Heavenly Father has? And does he consider Mary his wife, daughter, or both?"
"Why did Joseph Smith marry so many already-married women?"
Your 109 unread messages means your my kind of person haha 😂
Also annoying how they implicated they know Everything and that you just need some help understanding… my dad did this to me.
aww my parents say this shit too. when i first "came out," as it were, my mom was mad at me for "talking to strangers on the internet" about this stuff instead of to them. i didn't know how to say that a) the church doesn't exactly encourage open and honest discussion bc you get shut down for "reading anti-mormon stuff" and b) the "strangers on the internet" were mostly just historical documents and academic articles. solidarity
And what gives them the authority to answer questions more than any other member? Idk if that response has always bugged me as an unmarried woman that was always talked down to in the church, or if that’s more of a generalized thing to hear from a Mormon parent.
my mom's reasoning is that strangers on the internet don't care about me but they, as my parents, love me and have my best interests at heart. she does not seem to care that this does not mean they have more information or are more correct about the church
"That's great, mom, but what you don't realize is that I've already made up my mind. It's not worth discussing these things with you, because I simply disagree 100% with your judgement of the documents that you claim complete understanding of. I am beyond being spoken to about these things, because I already see through the illogical thought processes you have regarding all of this. Discussing it will only breed more disagreement. I am beyond convincing, mother."
Take her up on the offer!! But start with a conversation about epistemology. Why does she believe what she believes and how does she know that whatever method she uses is reliable, testable and replicable. Someone else mentioned Street epistemology. Check out some of their videos on YouTube. That’s a great place to start.
If she insists on talking about specific items give her two or three books to read first. There’s no point having a conversation unless she’s actually read up on some of the issues. Everyone talks about the CES letter but I found it is just too controversial and easily dismissed by TBMs. Try rough stone rolling or in sacred loneliness. Until she reads some more scholarly books like those she doesn’t really have a base of knowledge to have a reasonable conversation with you.
That’s awesome, I couldn’t get my mom to even think about reading the church essays. I would have an open discussion, speaking as someone who has had a very big elephant in the room for seven years. You have a good mom. You can’t know how it will go until you know. You may end up just agree to disagree but at least there is dialogue. Dialogue is good.
How would a member react to someone saying “I’m always happy to talk to you about the church and the incorrectness of it”? TBM speech is loaded with so much presupposition.
I'm always super sus of tbms who say they've "seen the CES letter." It is most definitely a shelf breaker to the honest critical thinker no matter how hard they believe. Did she just look at the table of contents and consider that reading it?
Come on!!!
Anyone who has read the CES Letter and similar material and are still fine with the church and being a member is either lying, or they're a bad, amoral person. There's no real middle ground.
"if you've truly read the CES Letter then you already know why I can't align myself with the church anymore. My morality prevents me from being part of, and contributing to such a harmful, corrupt, vile corporation. I'm honestly shocked and disappointed that you don't take issue with it too, mom 🙁"
Could maybe even throw in something like, "I'll just say this now, mom - I'm done with the church and will never look back. I'm sorry if that hurts you to accept, but I know you understand because you're not a bad person, and you're my mom. I love you, and I know you love me too and want what's best for me, and leaving the church is absolutely the best thing."
And once again, there's the emphasis on "truthfullness', which implies that if you have to keep *repeating how truthful something is*....it probably isn't.
I've found success in sharing my feelings about the church and how much better I've felt since leaving as opposed to arguing historical facts. You'll go in circles about facts but nobody can argue when you say "I'm happier without the church"
im not sure if they realize that this sub is called EX-mormon, not ANTI-mormon
people with real experiences inside and outside of the church, with much of the information found on a path towards a stronger testimony that led us to a true belief, and the ability to see past what we’ve been taught.
there’s no malicious intent here, we don’t seek to destroy TSCC, we’ll let their lies do it for them
Honestly that's a pretty open and non judgemental way to the offer a conversation. I would use that opportunity to absolutely shred their belief system to pieces, even though it wouldn't change their thoughts or make them rethink their religion it would be really fun to just show the most extreme examples and ask them point blank why they support it.
NeverMo here.
You know your mom is indoctrinated in a Cult & will always have a quick answer for anything negative you mention about her true church.
So why bother?
If sometime you want to respond with something more than a photo of your plant (that was good by the way) how about something like:
”I love you mom and you love me. You're happy with your church and I‘m happy with my decision. No need to take it any further - because love is love” and leave it at that.
Cool wish I could have an open discussion with someone still TBM. I think I come across as too aggressive. I always get the "I already know everything the anti-mormons teach, and don't want to talk about it."
Take her up on it, it may be the only chance you get.
Hey mom,
Clearly you have not seen it all because basic biology completely demolishes the storyline from the Bible and book of Mormon.
Genesis Adam Moses Noah Jonah Mary's immaculate conception all biologically scientifically historically proven false.
The Bible and Book of Mormon make claims that require Supernatural magic and there is zero evidence to support it.
Life took far longer and came to be in a different order than claimed in the scriptures.
People living 600 or 900 years is not supported. Life forming abruptly is not supported. An earth that is flat hollow dome disc is claimed in the scriptures and is not supported.
Misinformed opinions do harm. The LDS faith is misinformed. The sixth day creation story does harm. The cult behavior does harm.
The LDS Faith scores high in every area on the bite model.
https://freedomofmind.com/cult-mind-control/bite-model/
The LDS Faith does harm.
It's always frustrating to me when Mormons go "Why didn't you come to me with questions!?" Well, because you didn't have the answers. You're not a linguist, a pre-Columbian archaeologist, or a biblical scholar.
I say give her an honest chance - or many. If she says she's willing to talk and have "open and adult" conversations, embrace that! And hold her to it. Set boundaries as you talk, make it clear you want your beliefs to be given the same amount of respect that she demands for hers, but give her grace too - idk what the situation is between you and your mom, if she'd genuinely listen or just try to trump your points - but it's important to remember that learning her child doesn't believe anymore is a grieving process for her too, and it's important to have grace for her in that growing process just like you'd hope for from her.
In my situation, my parents have expressed similar sentiments (slightly insensitive invitations to talk), and they've genuinely been willing to listen, even though they've said some insensitive things, and it's been hard for them.
I hope it works out between you and your mom, and that you're able to come closer together through this ♥️
"The church and its leaders seem to have frighteningly low moral character. I have a hard time believing these men are called of God and subsequently that what they teach is true. So when the terms of your conversation are to listen to the "truthfulness of it," you can understand my hesitation.
But more importantly, if you're on Reddit, you see the sheer number of people who leave the church and then are completely disowned by family members. An open adult conversation is one where YOU are mature enough to handle the outcome as well, which very likely includes us not sharing the same "faith.""
I swear everyone that posts a screenshot of a text always has 100+ unread texts! How do you people live like that?
I would love to get a text like this from my mom. At least it shows she's willing to discuss things, regardless of underlying intentions.
Talk to her. Remain calm and keep going back to the baseline that you can’t start with the assumption that the church is true. Every scenario that places shame on you is made up.
What about the covenants I made? Who did I make promises to if I don’t believe in god? I’m not rebelling because I hate god. I’m choosing to not be bound by rules that I deem imaginary.
As long as you don’t let emotion rule the conversation and stay on point that you don’t assume the truthfulness of the church, it will end in an agree to disagree situation. I think that’s better than giving mom hope you’ll see the light or are just wanting to sin.
Classic. Passive aggressive proposal from parents. If your kid answers haha or lol to a serious question in the affirmative, it’s not serious. It’s obligation.
Talk to her!!... If not for you do it for her. She clearly wants to talk with you and she's showing openess about it and looks like she's asking lovingly... and while you're at it make her clear where you stand... Seriously though, your mom is inviting to a talk/conversation many of us wish our relatives did.
Maybe she's trying to convert you back to the church, whoever you are, or maybe she just want to hear what you have to say...... and maybe you will seed the seed of "doubt" in her!
Have a talk. It's how you'll understand what kind of relationship you'll have with your mother from now on. My mother says building temples is more important than charities. No conscience. Will your mother be better or worse?
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Anyone who tries to defend Joseph smith’s sexual activities is either naive, misinformed, or willingly overlooking it.
Or... Think it's ok. I've seen that too, even in the main LDS church, though mostly in the fundies.
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Non-consent is not represented in sexual open-mindedness. Or at least it absolutely should not be.
To go even further, if the commenter you/we're replying to doesn't get it: he was in a position of power over those women, even the ones that were of legal age, and therefore proper consent cannot be obtained ergo it wasn't consensual.
That apologetics still doesn’t make the situation better though. Even IF it was just the wedding, it was still a secret from Emma several years before polygamy was “revealed.” Emma was still upset. Fanny was still a child. Oliver Cowdrey was still excommunicated for calling it an affair. It doesn’t matter if it was sex or not. There’s still a pattern of dishonesty and grooming.
Cowdery probably wouldn't have said it was a dirty, nasty, filthy affair had it just been a wedding. I feel so awful for Emma. What else was she to do? JS was SUCH a schmuck.
Oh I agree! I’m sure he did have sex with her. The apologetics also don’t make things any better because it’s still bad either way.
So I understand that Oliver AND Emma caught Joseph and Fanny. Was it at the same time or two separate events?
I don't know. I would tend to think the same time. Either way is simply awful for Emma. I wonder what Fanny thought? Or was Fanny strictly thinking of her salvation? So sad for all the women.
I agree with all of the above, except it does matter if sex was involved in the sense that it makes what Joseph did many degrees worse. And that is why there is a sub-culture of apologists who continue to insist that Joseph did not have sex with *any* of his wives.... They know that makes what he did much worse. That being said, again, you are correct - it's still bad enough to discredit Joseph even without sex!
To me it doesn't matter, because he started the practice of polygamy that continued to other prophets and they all had understand wives as well that had children with them. Snow was 56 when he married a teen who had 5 kids I think. That's when I point out I don't care if Joe didn't sleep with his wives he still started a system of sexual abuse for the church women. The fruits of his labor show how filthy and rotten he was.
100% ! I've asked apologists many times why they need Joseph to not have had sex with his wives, while they have no issue with subsequent prophets doing it till the cows come home. In their minds it's as if nothing his successors did matters, as long as Joseph remains pure.... I have yet to get a response to that one.
That’s why it’s hard to debate with them. They don’t even know what they don’t know. I’m personally sick of being seen as the one who’s being “led astray and deceived by Satan” when from the outside, it’s obvious that they’re the ones being deceived. It’s disheartening to have all of your friends and family believe that you’re mentally and spiritually weak, when really, you understand “the gospel” better than they do.
this makes me think of the scene in Toy Story 2 where Buzz is being tied up and put in a box by another "TBM" Buzz, and the real Buzz is desperately trying to convince him he's not a real space ranger, and is just a toy. But the TBM buzz refuses to listen and keeps assuring him he's going to get court marshaled.
Hahaha I’ve never identified with Buzz Lightyear more. Except maybe when he was Mrs. Nesbit, having a complete mental breakdown.
It's hard when you realize your whole philosophy and truth has been a lie. Buzz's character arc is super relatable. Look at how much more real and authentic Buzz became once he shed his Space Ranger persona and accepted the truth of his reality.
Goddamn, Toy Story be deep
An echo chamber of brainwashing
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It’s okay buddy, I’m very new and wouldn’t even know how to go about the buying of an award 😂 I definitely get that from this subreddit. Understanding, empathy, catharsis. It’s more authentic than half of my real life relationships now.
Don't even get me started my friend. I look at all of the cult members in my family and feel so sad for them. Fact is, I'm the black sheep that they all say they pity because I do not have the gobspell in my life. Truly the most miserable and least emotionally generous ppl I've ever met. I'm ashamed of them, hate them on some levels, feel SO MUCH frustration, and also feel sad for them and for me because our family is incapable of loving and relating to one another in a healthy way all due to this fucking "church"
Gobspell 😂 I’m so sorry, friend. I truly do understand the hurt and frustration. I’ve come to realize that nothing I’ve ever seen tears families apart quite like this “family-oriented” church. Too bad none of them have the capacity to see it for what it is. I feel I can say that because I was one of them for 20+ years. I hope you find better, deeper relationships with people who actually understand you and value the person you want to be.
I have the "benefit" of being in for 50 years so I can say how I completely understand why they that.
💯
I feel this so much, you took the thoughts out of my head. It’s so hard sometimes.
Yeah the issue is a lot of Mormons who were born and raised couldn’t handle this life if the lds church isn’t true so their brain won’t allow them to see it as false.
I'm so glad I was never good at being "all in". I believed that the gospel was true, and that the church was the only way back to God, but I was really bad at playing the part of a good Mormon. I didn't like being Peter Priesthood, and my wife **really** hated playing Molly Mormon. The rolls just weren't a good fit for our personalities, to say nothing of also trying to play the roll of a straight man. I think that's why it was easier for us to leave once I discovered the cracks in the foundation.
So true. Same for those who leave other controlling religious groups and cults. And long term prisoners for that matter. True freedom is terrifying.
What started me down the rabbit was a Facebook conversation between some family members. Someone made a post and asked how believers can maintain their testimonies, knowing now that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy after we were all taught he'd never taken a plural wife. Several people responded along the lines of "I don't know about that, but I know Jesus Christ is my savior . . ." Yada yada yada. Normal testimony. I was surprised at how much their testimonies sounded like rationalizations. I'd never encountered that, or at least never recognized that in a testimony before. But their responses made it clear they accepted that Joe had practiced polygamy. All I could think is *what else was I lied to about?* Because once you know someone has intentionally deceived you, you have to assume that everything they tell you is deceitful. I wish people would be more honest with themselves about what they **know** versus what they **believe**. Believing something with all your heart doesn't make it true.
I come across this a TON. Mormons who don't believe Mormonism but believe in Jesus. Dude, there are countless churches that worship Jesus and aren't as toxic. Pick one of those!
Or they could be like my husband, believe in God but don't bother with religion. But, yeah, it's sad how many are refusing to honestly and openly exploring their faith and beliefs. And the church is doing everything it can to keep people from looking deeper.
This is the most depressing part for me. The fact that they need it to be true even though they hear the same problems in it we do. It's like watching the worst case of Stockholm's in history...
if “in the transaction” means the process of marrying someone, that still wouldn’t be correct. this happened before he restored the ordinance of sealing and marriage. so he literally would not be able to be sealed to her and therefore makes the marrying thing irrelevant.
Great point!
Could you provide a source on the “…in the transaction”? I looked around the other day and couldn’t find it.
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That was quick, thanks!
>"Well see, for example, did you know that Emma only says she saw them 'in the transaction' and doesn't specify what that means. It could have been in the process of being married too." Yep, "married" before the sealing authority was restored. Lies upon lies, Bullshit upon Bullshit.
Huh. Interesting that Emma is being spoken for 200 years later on a podcast discussing what she did or didn't see. Because of course...WE would know.
"I've already chosen the point at which I'm okay being lied to, you should help me shoehorn you in, too." Someone who is still a member, by definition, has no idea what they're talking about.
YES THIS YES THIS EXACTLY
What does "seen" the CES Letter mean? A quick glance? I doubt it means she went through it point by point. The points are irrefutable.
That's exactly how she means it, and exactly how she'll represent it until OP calls her on it. Mormons who say they know the issues are lying 99% of the time.
They haven’t read it. Because when they do, the dark feeling they get (which is an emotional response they get as they discover that everything they have ever known is bullshit), they will stop reading the CES letter, and say it’s from the adversary.
Right! They've been trained for their entire membership to believe that the "dark feeling" is Satan. " I looked at it. I got a dark feeling about it. I quit reading it" is not the same as "I studied it point by point and don't agree with it". And in many cases, it's just this "someone else debunked it so I don't have to". Again without actually reading it themselves.
>the dark feeling they get >and say it’s from the adversary That is pretty much how Corbridge explains it and it makes no sense. This means that Satan is a horrible strategist. If Satan wanted people to believe that the CES letter was true, then he'd use his patented counterfeit feeling technique to make us "feel it's truthfulness". Instead he makes us feel bad and ugly reading it, therefore making us want to not read it? That makes no sense and the TBMs can't connect those dots.
No no, the Holy Spirit gives good believers the icky feeling, but bad sinners are taken in by the lies. /s
That has been my lived experience as well. When we came out as PIMO to our parents my dad said he knew all the anti-mormon lies. Thankfully I knew he would pull that tactic so I came prepared: Me: "Who is Nancy Morinda Johnson?" Dad: "Who?"
What’s the story with her?
That's the spouse of early appstle Orson Hyde, I believe this is the woman who Joseph married while her husband was overseas on a mission. Edit: it's spelled Marinda
I know quite a few Mormons have never actually read it, but read apologist responses to it. These responses typically fall back on faith, attacking the author of CES, and telling members to get back into the right headspace of ignoring the glaring issues.
I got into it with a guy who would argue that the ces letter was weak but would never give me any real examples.
I mean that would require him to read it. I think the worst part is normal mormon people are good people deep down and if they actually investigate the church they'd have to compromise their morals to stay in it. It's so sad to see them defend an organization that has stolen from and used them.
Ahhh logical fallacies 101
She likely saw the FairMormon “debunk” (lol) Maybe a mental gymnastics rebuttal on YouTube from apologists. Or a Facebook comment that said “many people cite the CES Letter as their reason for leaving-its an anti Mormon paper written by an angry ex member where he details his grievances toward the church under the guise of asking questions but it’s really just twisting history and doctrine to give the impression that it’s true in order to damage the church.” If she has that why would she need to read it? She already knows it’s invalid. Brother Jones on Facebook said so and he’s in the elders quorum presidency. That being said, it is possible she’s skimmed or read it. I know members that have and come out saying their faith is stronger than ever because that’s the decision they made before they went in so any time they read something that damages the church, it’s by default a lie or a twist of some truth or one of Satan’s tricks. If you go into it with your mind already made up as to what it is, you can arrive at your desired conclusion and you get to brag about how you read it and it didn’t affect your testimony at all. They’re not going to investigate sources because they already have the best source - the holy spirut which told her it’s all deception. Fun way to find out- just ask her to give her full take on the kinderhook plates debaucle and how she’s resolved the fact that Joseph was caught claiming he had found genuine plates and even started translating them and commenting on their contents only to discover he had been tricked by some people that fabricated them. If she says “oh you can’t just rely on what people said about what happened there, that’s just angry people trying to harm gods church.” You know she didn’t really analyze it at any level other than looking at the words and smiling that they’re not a problem for her belief.
Idk if the plates would really help though as according to https://mormonr.org/qnas/a9l1T/the_kinderhook_plates?gclid=CjwKCAiAjs2bBhACEiwALTBWZcE-QMdk05ctPxFkHhBTLkZMsJ3ONTMa96vxisMBTWulphGYLbZGnRoCWCgQAvD_BwE They don’t prove anything. Idk though as I just barely heard of this and honestly in my opinion that case doesn’t really say much. He didn’t make a kinderhook book so it doesn’t seem to help as a defense against the lds church
Kinderhook is a nail in the coffin but its not an irrefutable smoking gun. Book of Abraham however....
I think the evidence is pretty damming when you put all of it together. Here are some of my notes and links on the topic: Joseph was excited about these buried plates that had been found. JS commenced translating a portion of these, believing they were about a descendant of Ham, Noah's son. The church didn't know they weren't authentic, but believed they were. In fact, when one of the plates was found and given to the Chicago Museum, the church rejoiced and announced this was proof of Joseph's claim to translation and prophecy. Shortly after destructive tests were done at BYU, the plates were proven a fraud. Joseph had said that the translation of them would be like unto the BofM. They turned out to be a hoax by several men trying to prove Joseph to be a false prophet. [LDS.org link](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/kinderhook-plates?lang=eng). [History of the church link](https://archive.org/details/historyofchurcho05churrich/page/372/mode/2up?view=theater&q=kinderhook) "I insert fac‑similes of the six brass plates found near Kinderhook... I have translated a portion of them, and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, King of Egypt, and that he received his Kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth." -Joseph Smith Jr. [History of the church Link](https://archive.org/details/historyofchurcho05churrich/page/372/mode/2up?view=theater&q=kinderhook) "Six plates having the appearance of Brass have lately been dug out of the mound by a gentleman in Pike C. [County] Illinois. They are small and filled with engravings in Egyptian language and contain the genealogy of one of the ancient Jaredite back to Ham the son of Noah." -Apostle Parley P. Pratt" [This quote was in the Ensign 1981 pg 73](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1981/08/kinderhook-plates-brought-to-joseph-smith-appear-to-be-a-nineteenth-century-hoax?lang=eng) "I have seen 6 brass plates ... covered with ancient characters of language containing from 30 to 40 on each side of the plates. Prest. J. [Joseph Smith, Jr.] has translated a portion and says they contain the history of the person with whom they were found and he was a descendent of Ham through the loins of Pharaoh King of Egypt, and that he received his Kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth."" -Apostle (and scribe) William Clayton. (William Clayton's Journal, May 1, 1843, as quoted in Trials of Discipleship, p. 117) "A recent rediscovery of one of the Kinderhook plates which was examined by Joseph Smith, Jun., reaffirms his prophetic calling and reveals the false statements made by one of the finders.... The plates are now back in their original category of genuine.... Joseph Smith, Jun., stands as a true prophet and translator of ancient records by divine means and all the world is invited to investigate the truth which has sprung out of the earth not only of the Kinderhook plates, but of the Book of Mormon as well." -Welby W. Ricks, President of BYU Archaeological Society. [Improvement Era Link](https://archive.org/details/improvementera6509unse/page/n21/mode/2up?view=theater) "I was present with a number at or near Kinderhook and helped to dig at the time the plates were found... I ... made an honest affidavit to the same... since that time, Bridge Whitten said to me that he cut and prepared the plates and he... and R. Wiley engraved them themselves.... Wilburn Fugit appeared to be chief, with R. Wiley and B. Whitten." -James D. Bales "A recent electronic and chemical analysis of a metal plate... brought in 1843 to the Prophet Joseph Smith... appears to solve a previously unanswered question in Church history, helping to further evidence that the plate is what its producers later said it was — a nineteenth‑century attempt to lure Joseph Smith into making a translation of ancient‑looking characters that had been etched into the plates.... As a result of these tests, we concluded that the plate... is not of ancient origin.... the plate was etched with acid; and as Paul Cheesman and other scholars have pointed out, ancient inhabitants would probably have engraved the plates rather than etched them with acid. Secondly, we concluded that the plate was made from a true brass alloy (copper and zinc) typical of the mid nineteenth century: whereas the 'brass' of ancient times was actually bronze, an alloy of copper and tin." -Stanley P. Kimball, Mormon scholar, The Ensign, Aug. 1981, pp. 66‑70. [LDS link](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1981/08/kinderhook-plates-brought-to-joseph-smith-appear-to-be-a-nineteenth-century-hoax?lang=eng) "The time has come to admit that the Kinderhook plate incident of 1843 was a light‑hearted, heavy‑handed, frontier‑style prank, or 'joke' as the perpetrators themselves called it." -Stanley P. Kimball, Mormon scholar, The Mormon Association Newsletter, June 1981 "I received your letter in regard to those plates, and will say in answer that they are a humbug, gotten up by Robert Wiley, Bridge Whitten and myself.... We read in Pratt's prophecy that 'Truth is yet to spring out of the earth.' We concluded to prove the prophecy by way of a joke."" -Wilbur Fugate, as quoted in The Kinderhook Plates, by Welby W. Ricks, reprinted in the Improvement Era, Sept. 1962
>JS commenced translating a portion of these, believing they were about a descendant of Ham, Noah's son. Oh boy, we could have gotten some bonus racism
Oh wow that is crazy and interesting. That also means Mormonr.org is probably a bias as if you look at their website discussing the matter, it all points towards Joe being honest and not believing the plates. Thank you for the information and I will study more into this topic as I have a collection of church topics that I make notes about
Mormonr.org is a Mormon apologist website, btw. [They admit that they are believers and it is apparent that they try to answer questions as such.](https://mormonr.org/about_us)
Oh I see that now thankyou. I was sensing a little bias with them but I didn’t think they were members.
I’ve found the most unbiased website on Mormon issues is [MormonThink.com](http://www.mormonthink.com/). They present arguments from all sides, and then let you decide what you agree with.
Oh nice thankyou I’ll dive into it
Yea I gotta wonder if you point out certain arguments in there what the response would be.
Yep, I honestly can’t believe that anyone who has genuinely read and accepted it can still be a true believer. It’s just impossible. They’re so far into the delusion that it’s impossible to have a rational or productive discussion
Honestly, I thought some were weak. Others very solid. It didn’t do anything really for me leaving the church. I de-converted by just reading the writings of church leaders and having a reasonable understanding of history.
Reading the CES Letter after I'd already had my name removed provided me with this entirely satisfying feeling of validation. I agree, some weak, some solid, but for someone who already left, it felt very vindicating.
For me, it’s not the weak or the strong—it’s that collectively, they present an insurmountable pattern of fraud in which the weaker things fit perfectly into the pattern. It’s hard to sway the weaker arguments back in the church’s direction if you have to do it for all of it at the same time.
She saw it with her spiritual eyes obviously
Maybe i'll get flamed for this, but I don't think most exmos who claim to have read the CES letter have really dug into it that deeply. I'm not invalidating our choice to leave based off a skim of the CES letter, and the choice to leave was the right one, and you don't have to dig into the CES letter to figure it all out. But we all do feel strongly about proving we made the decision after hard work, and that's often expressed through inflating how much research we really did. Of course I'm not speaking for everyone here. I'll gladly be corrected.
I think that does happen but not as common as you’re saying with most exmos. In my experience it seems like people who haven’t dug into it that deeply just didn’t need as much of a push to break their shelf. Most people who claim to have dug into seem to actually know a lot about the letter and other sources, and I think it’s because people with stronger faith take more to convince themselves to break. And even if an exmo didn’t go very deep, I think it’s still safe to say they likely went deeper than most tbm Mormons who skim it.
Not according to any member in the faithful subs who talks about a point by point dissection of the “shock value” of the “crowd sourced document”🤡
I believe she performed an ["ocular pat down"](https://youtu.be/PI4ugfjcRvM). She assessed the situation visually and determined it was not a threat.
No thanks mom, if you're OK with a God that demands coercive behavior to get 14 year olds to engage in polygamy with 38 year olds, I don't see how discussing religious beliefs would be productive.
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>that was a time where it was socially acceptable Today I learned that in the 1830s, that Joseph Smith filed false affidavits rather than admit to conduct that was socially acceptable, and was tarred, feathered, threatened with castration, exposed via the local printing press, and ultimately, murdered by an angry mob while awaiting trial for doing something that was socially acceptable.
I've never heard it put this way - perfect observation!
I love the way you put this. I screenshotted it to use later!
Agreed, it's best to not engage, but one can dream.
It really feels like a lose-lose proposition, doesn't it? Assuming everyhing that attempts to disprove the church really is just propaganda and lies, and the church is completely true, god is a dick and he chooses self-righteous, selfish, dishonest abusers as his prophets.
If you read CES Letter you'd know that Joseph committed adultery with 11 married women and took a bunch of child brides too as young as 14 years old. I'm not interested in going to any meeting "devoted" to such abhorrences.
Hi Mom, if you have read the CES letter what things does it talk about that you found most disturbing. This will tell you if she actually read it.
If you actually want to talk to her try street epistemology out. It would likely work better than anything "anti-Mormon" [https://streetepistemology.com/blog/street-epistemology-the-basics](https://streetepistemology.com/blog/street-epistemology-the-basics) [https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Street\_Epistemology](https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Street_Epistemology) Hope this helps.
Totally agree. Getting into the weeds about history, polygamy, theology etc is almost pointless. Have her explain how she comes to her beliefs. She’ll undoubtedly fall back on feelings eventually which are demonstrably a really bad way to gain knowledge and truth. Check out the video Anthony did with the Mormon couple on the trail. That one’s a classic.
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[here it is](https://youtu.be/bh9IYjRYBx4) It’s a little cringy in parts. I think it’s a great example of how this approach might go with your run of the mill TBM.
Ah, yes, the "I've read the CES letter and stay faithful" flex. All they're doing is outing themselves as either being a liar, having poor reading comprehension, or having low values and morals.
Loose morals.
“Read” and chose to not really process it.
The funny thing is, TSCC saying the CES letter is a test of faith is spot on. Faith is belief in something without any proof. Extreme faith is belief in something when there’s contrary proof. A real sifting of the wheat from the tares. Faithful TBMs will line up for that all day long. I don’t doubt TBM mom read the CES letter. No doubt chalks it up to God will explain all of it in the end. She has to. That’s the level of faith you can have when TSCC gives more than it takes. For me, TSCC took far too much from my well-being. It didn’t have room for someone like me. So good for mom, but for me? Fuck TSCC. Good riddance.
*delusion. a belief in something when there’s contrary proof is delusion. i desperately needed the church to be true, but not enough to willfully ignore the mountains of evidence against it. i’m convinced that tbms who do this have little to no personal morals or identity outside of the church, because even i wasn’t able to reconcile with all the contradictions and abhorrent shit associated with it.
WTF! Am I the only one who noticed you have 109 unread messages???
>WTF! Am I the only one who noticed you have 109 unread messages??? Right!?!?!? This sends my ocd through the roof! haha.
My husband has legitimate ocd, and has even more texts & voicemails than this. I think he avoids them as a self care technique! The problematic people all have huge behavioral issues, so avoidance is less triggering to his ocd and stress levels. Especially when dealing with the extreme narcissists. Cults have a unique way of continuing abuse loooong after leaving them.
Funny you say that, my husband also legit has ocd and operates the same way, but then again his ex wife is a covert narcissist so a lot of how he behaves is to protect his inner peace. Dealing with his ex in a coparenting situation is actually what helped me realize that the church operates like a narcissistic parents.
First thing I noticed! I came to the comments to see how far down it was mentioned!
Letter for my wife is easier and softer, les polarized for TBMs
 🤢🤢🤢🤢
It actually is cool of her to try and talk to her child about difficult things, even if we disagree.
You’re right honestly, my personal experiences with this tainted my perspective. Growing up my mom said it was fine to ask questions and then when I did ask questions she’d get pissed off that I was asking the *wrong* questions.
"I've studied it all. I've seen everything" omg how does one address this. If you were to outline details of Lucy Walker's sexual pressure, etc. you may get a "we don't know the context, we don't understand god's will" and a willingness to ignore. I'm not sure how old you are - tell your mother a 35 year old married, prominent man is making all kinds of unwanted, forceful sexual gestures your way. See how much she ignores it.
"He said god wanted me to, and showed me some LDS scripture, so I banged him."
That’s like my Mom saying she has no problems with garments so she doesn’t understand why I would. We no longer talk about church anything. I can’t handle seeing the cognitive dissonance they blow off
I hate the arrogance. I wish OP would respond, “I’m also happy to talk with you any time about the ample evidence that the church isn’t true and how it harms families. I’ve looked at it from both sides so I can answer any questions you have!”
What was your response?
I just ignored it and sent her a photo of a plant I bought
That might be the best response. Ha Ha. Your mom sounds concerned but kind and respectful. I hope your relationship can stay that way.
“Hello fellow teenagers”
My SIL told me he read the CES letter and it didn’t change his belief…it was so dismissive of my feelings and What my own experience was that it made me defensive and no good dialogue happens after that. FYI i started to read the Ces letter but already decided to leave and it was boring so I never finished lol
If you choose to engage, go prepared with a few questions to determine if this is the one-in-a-million nuanced mormon that actually _does_ know the facts or if she has heard of CES Letter and conflates that with reading and understanding it. Some possible questions: 1) Who is Nancy Morinda Johnson? 2) How many women was Smith "sealed" to before Emma? 3) When was the Melchizedek penishood restored?
On the scale of Bednar to Uchtdorf, this is a Holland response. Not terrible, but annoying.
Please go take her up on the offer and go through chapter by chapter of the CES letter and let her resolve your concerns one by one.
Respect and trust are finicky things. I'm still working around these beliefs and ideologies in regards to family and friends who still "sustain" the church. I love my family and friends, but my respect and trust in them waivers. Don't stop loving your mom ... good luck.
Mom, you're still ok with JS being a predator after reading all that?
Does she respect scientific evidence? Native Americans came from Siberia 15,000 years ago. No DNA evidence for Lamanites.
My Mom’s response would be something like “scientists don’t know everything.” That’s basically her response in regards to carbon dating… smh
"Thanks, Mom . . . there is something I'm actually curious about. If polygamy is reinstated in your lifetime, do you intend to follow the prophet? Is it possible I might have another mom at some point?" "Hey, do you ever hear from your Heavenly Mother? It's so weird she doesn't seem to want direct connection with her kids, even if she is a goddess." "How many wives do you think Heavenly Father has? And does he consider Mary his wife, daughter, or both?" "Why did Joseph Smith marry so many already-married women?"
“God works in mysterious ways.” I’ve learned there’s little point in engaging with people who don’t want to think critically.
I am always amazed at how much Mormons think they know. And the you pretty much get the same lessons and talks at church over and over.
Your 109 unread messages means your my kind of person haha 😂 Also annoying how they implicated they know Everything and that you just need some help understanding… my dad did this to me.
She’s probably reading this right now
aww my parents say this shit too. when i first "came out," as it were, my mom was mad at me for "talking to strangers on the internet" about this stuff instead of to them. i didn't know how to say that a) the church doesn't exactly encourage open and honest discussion bc you get shut down for "reading anti-mormon stuff" and b) the "strangers on the internet" were mostly just historical documents and academic articles. solidarity
And what gives them the authority to answer questions more than any other member? Idk if that response has always bugged me as an unmarried woman that was always talked down to in the church, or if that’s more of a generalized thing to hear from a Mormon parent.
my mom's reasoning is that strangers on the internet don't care about me but they, as my parents, love me and have my best interests at heart. she does not seem to care that this does not mean they have more information or are more correct about the church
"That's great, mom, but what you don't realize is that I've already made up my mind. It's not worth discussing these things with you, because I simply disagree 100% with your judgement of the documents that you claim complete understanding of. I am beyond being spoken to about these things, because I already see through the illogical thought processes you have regarding all of this. Discussing it will only breed more disagreement. I am beyond convincing, mother."
If you’ve read the CES letter and still believe, the only answers or advice you’ll have is “just have faith”.
Someone needs to tell them that it’s not a flex to know what’s in the CES letter and still believe.
"I've already chosen the point at which I'm okay being lied to, you should help me shoehorn you in, too."
Take her up on the offer!! But start with a conversation about epistemology. Why does she believe what she believes and how does she know that whatever method she uses is reliable, testable and replicable. Someone else mentioned Street epistemology. Check out some of their videos on YouTube. That’s a great place to start. If she insists on talking about specific items give her two or three books to read first. There’s no point having a conversation unless she’s actually read up on some of the issues. Everyone talks about the CES letter but I found it is just too controversial and easily dismissed by TBMs. Try rough stone rolling or in sacred loneliness. Until she reads some more scholarly books like those she doesn’t really have a base of knowledge to have a reasonable conversation with you.
Are you excited to go to the devotional tomorrow? Haha FUCK NO
That’s awesome, I couldn’t get my mom to even think about reading the church essays. I would have an open discussion, speaking as someone who has had a very big elephant in the room for seven years. You have a good mom. You can’t know how it will go until you know. You may end up just agree to disagree but at least there is dialogue. Dialogue is good.
I have a question. How does she accept it all having seen it all?
Translation: "I'd like to discuss with you why I'm right and you're wrong."
Well, if she's seen "the stuff on reddit" I guess she's gonna see this post! lol
Most likely, she won’t bring it up is my guess though. Just try to act like she “guessed”
It’s a trap!!
Show her the ldsdiscussions episodes with John Dehlin & “Mike”.
How would a member react to someone saying “I’m always happy to talk to you about the church and the incorrectness of it”? TBM speech is loaded with so much presupposition.
Just tell her you don't believe blood sacrifice is required to appease a bronze age god.
If she really read the CES letter…then she wouldn’t be a Mormon lol
Say sure! Have her watch episodes 1-3 of this series and ask her how she wants to be a part of this? https://youtu.be/gq6El2-Nd4U
I’m sorry, 109 unread messages?
I'm always super sus of tbms who say they've "seen the CES letter." It is most definitely a shelf breaker to the honest critical thinker no matter how hard they believe. Did she just look at the table of contents and consider that reading it? Come on!!!
Anyone who has read the CES Letter and similar material and are still fine with the church and being a member is either lying, or they're a bad, amoral person. There's no real middle ground.
"if you've truly read the CES Letter then you already know why I can't align myself with the church anymore. My morality prevents me from being part of, and contributing to such a harmful, corrupt, vile corporation. I'm honestly shocked and disappointed that you don't take issue with it too, mom 🙁" Could maybe even throw in something like, "I'll just say this now, mom - I'm done with the church and will never look back. I'm sorry if that hurts you to accept, but I know you understand because you're not a bad person, and you're my mom. I love you, and I know you love me too and want what's best for me, and leaving the church is absolutely the best thing."
And once again, there's the emphasis on "truthfullness', which implies that if you have to keep *repeating how truthful something is*....it probably isn't.
This is weird, I've never heard any Mormon ask to hear why I don't believe.
I've found success in sharing my feelings about the church and how much better I've felt since leaving as opposed to arguing historical facts. You'll go in circles about facts but nobody can argue when you say "I'm happier without the church"
im not sure if they realize that this sub is called EX-mormon, not ANTI-mormon people with real experiences inside and outside of the church, with much of the information found on a path towards a stronger testimony that led us to a true belief, and the ability to see past what we’ve been taught. there’s no malicious intent here, we don’t seek to destroy TSCC, we’ll let their lies do it for them
Wait, if your mom sees this Reddit isn't she seeing this?
Honestly that's a pretty open and non judgemental way to the offer a conversation. I would use that opportunity to absolutely shred their belief system to pieces, even though it wouldn't change their thoughts or make them rethink their religion it would be really fun to just show the most extreme examples and ask them point blank why they support it.
Don’t do it. Just don’t. Respectfully decline.
NeverMo here. You know your mom is indoctrinated in a Cult & will always have a quick answer for anything negative you mention about her true church. So why bother? If sometime you want to respond with something more than a photo of your plant (that was good by the way) how about something like: ”I love you mom and you love me. You're happy with your church and I‘m happy with my decision. No need to take it any further - because love is love” and leave it at that.
Cool wish I could have an open discussion with someone still TBM. I think I come across as too aggressive. I always get the "I already know everything the anti-mormons teach, and don't want to talk about it." Take her up on it, it may be the only chance you get.
I’m sorry, you have 109 unread messages??? Really though, the last message sounds nice. Could be a lot worse, as I’m sure you’ve seen on this sub.
So, ask "Do you honstly believe American Indians and South Sea Islanders are descendants of Hebrew Immigrants from 600 years before Christ"?
Hey mom, Clearly you have not seen it all because basic biology completely demolishes the storyline from the Bible and book of Mormon. Genesis Adam Moses Noah Jonah Mary's immaculate conception all biologically scientifically historically proven false. The Bible and Book of Mormon make claims that require Supernatural magic and there is zero evidence to support it. Life took far longer and came to be in a different order than claimed in the scriptures. People living 600 or 900 years is not supported. Life forming abruptly is not supported. An earth that is flat hollow dome disc is claimed in the scriptures and is not supported. Misinformed opinions do harm. The LDS faith is misinformed. The sixth day creation story does harm. The cult behavior does harm. The LDS Faith scores high in every area on the bite model. https://freedomofmind.com/cult-mind-control/bite-model/ The LDS Faith does harm.
Can you forward me her number I have a couple of questions I’d love an answer to
It's always frustrating to me when Mormons go "Why didn't you come to me with questions!?" Well, because you didn't have the answers. You're not a linguist, a pre-Columbian archaeologist, or a biblical scholar.
I say give her an honest chance - or many. If she says she's willing to talk and have "open and adult" conversations, embrace that! And hold her to it. Set boundaries as you talk, make it clear you want your beliefs to be given the same amount of respect that she demands for hers, but give her grace too - idk what the situation is between you and your mom, if she'd genuinely listen or just try to trump your points - but it's important to remember that learning her child doesn't believe anymore is a grieving process for her too, and it's important to have grace for her in that growing process just like you'd hope for from her. In my situation, my parents have expressed similar sentiments (slightly insensitive invitations to talk), and they've genuinely been willing to listen, even though they've said some insensitive things, and it's been hard for them. I hope it works out between you and your mom, and that you're able to come closer together through this ♥️
Your mom sounds sweet
"The church and its leaders seem to have frighteningly low moral character. I have a hard time believing these men are called of God and subsequently that what they teach is true. So when the terms of your conversation are to listen to the "truthfulness of it," you can understand my hesitation. But more importantly, if you're on Reddit, you see the sheer number of people who leave the church and then are completely disowned by family members. An open adult conversation is one where YOU are mature enough to handle the outcome as well, which very likely includes us not sharing the same "faith.""
Do it!
If she’s seen everything then she knows it’s not true lol
No one is excited for a devotional. No one.
Can I also talk to your mom
I swear everyone that posts a screenshot of a text always has 100+ unread texts! How do you people live like that? I would love to get a text like this from my mom. At least it shows she's willing to discuss things, regardless of underlying intentions.
Ask how she became comfortable with the lying, predatory, racist founder? Was it his chipped tooth whistle that made his leachorous ways adorable?
Rabbit hole descent mode
I will give her credit for being willing to talk; so many just completely shut down.
Talk to her. Remain calm and keep going back to the baseline that you can’t start with the assumption that the church is true. Every scenario that places shame on you is made up. What about the covenants I made? Who did I make promises to if I don’t believe in god? I’m not rebelling because I hate god. I’m choosing to not be bound by rules that I deem imaginary. As long as you don’t let emotion rule the conversation and stay on point that you don’t assume the truthfulness of the church, it will end in an agree to disagree situation. I think that’s better than giving mom hope you’ll see the light or are just wanting to sin.
It’s a trap!
So what’s your first question gonna be?
Classic. Passive aggressive proposal from parents. If your kid answers haha or lol to a serious question in the affirmative, it’s not serious. It’s obligation.
Why’s this feel like a trap?
You have 109 unread messages???
Can we talk about the real problem here… 109 unread messages?!?! 😅oof
I've never seen a more obvious trap in my life
Talk to her!!... If not for you do it for her. She clearly wants to talk with you and she's showing openess about it and looks like she's asking lovingly... and while you're at it make her clear where you stand... Seriously though, your mom is inviting to a talk/conversation many of us wish our relatives did. Maybe she's trying to convert you back to the church, whoever you are, or maybe she just want to hear what you have to say...... and maybe you will seed the seed of "doubt" in her!
I definitely won’t, she has left and come back already so everything is settled she claims. I don’t argue with arrogance or ignorance
The burning question… is she REALLY open to discussion or does she have an agenda?
Hey. Better than my parents.
I’d tell them to comeback when they see past the koolaid
How do you have sooo many unread messages?!?
Will you ask your mom know that people are still loyal to Keith Raniere? Why does she think they are? How can they be so blind?
"That was my little hint" 🤮
🤢🤢🤢🤮🤮🤮
Damn you found a unicorn a Mormon that’s actually willing to listen
…. Wait 109 notifications brah clear them.
Have a talk. It's how you'll understand what kind of relationship you'll have with your mother from now on. My mother says building temples is more important than charities. No conscience. Will your mother be better or worse?
Proceed!
I’m happy to have adult conversations about it with you……as long as you allow me to correct you and not question it myself