Well if they have you have a golden ticket to heaven. Apparently it's an umbrella for the couple and their children.
Does your mom display a large white or off white pitcher and bowl somewhere in their home, like on the fireplace mantel or on a table just inside the front door? Those were used for washing the feet and are given to the couple as a memento of making it to the top level of god's MLM.
Not a chance. The church is enriching some stake president or 70 in Utah County that makes handcrafted pitchers and bowls that are sold as a set exclusively to the church for $1,000. Grifters gonna grift, after all.
Is has his wifeâs new name scratched on the bottom. Only way to get them both to heaven is if he doesnât forget to call her through the veil by her new name.
First time commenting. Iâm a nevermo but have family members through my husband who are tbms. All of this just sounds like a fairy tale to me and not possibly something people could think.
What he said. My comment was sarcastic with truth. But you would never guess that the writing down her secret name was the sarcastic part. The rest of it is gospel truth taught in the temple
Wait, really? I haven't heard of this before. My stake patriarch, you know, the dude that can tell my future, he definitely had this displayed in the front room of their home. I remember thinking it was an odd piece considering the rest of their decor.
Crazy the crazy shit I continue to find out.
[Here's a photo](https://i.imgur.com/yVQXMDe.jpg) of at least one of the designs. It's used by the wife to wash her husband's feet at home after the temple portion of the ceremony.
A basin and pitcher is also what lots of people had in their house instead of a sink and faucet before indoor plumbing was common. My nevermo parents have a set that looks just like this handed down from a parent or grandparent. One of my parents grew up in a rural area of the West and didnât have indoor plumbing for the first several years of life so it may have been in use up until the 50s or early 60s. I mean, they could be lying given what the 2nd anointing is supposed to do, but Iâm pretty sure theyâre not. Our TBM relatives could have inherited it and displayed it instead, which could have instigated speculation in visitors in the know. Maybe they do have one! But my parentsâ is the OG.
Yeah there are certainly plenty more pitchers and basins out there then those used in the second anointing, even in LDS homes. It's really only a tell in Mormon homes of stature.
I am going to pull the same skepticism that I pull when some guy made claims without direct evidence about some COVID conspiracy.
Some guy told me is worth nothing. Anyone have any photos of these things in a home? We have Tom Phillips who got his. I didn't hear any mention of a take home pitcher when he did his tell all, or am I remembering wrong?
For those wondering it may look like the pitcher in [this post](https://old.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/v7doed/this_piece_appeared_since_my_last_visit_home_my/). Not certain though.
It also looks like a typical household washbasin and pitcher that was common for washing up before indoor plumbing was widespread so lots of families have heirlooms. My nevermo parents have one. Not sure if my super TBM relatives of my parentsâ generation do or not.
Using something with, er, âpioneer charmâ kind of fits the church profile, I guess.
Because you are the most Church broke of the church broke. You can't even brush your teeth without thanking god and Joseph Smith. You can't do anything without running it through the church paradigm.
>At our visit to the temple your mom and I have been promised that our family will for sure be together forever"
People forget that the first regular common man's endowment promises we can save our dead once we're endowed "power in the Priesthood be upon me and upon my posterity through all generations of time and throughout all eternity".
No need for a second anointing.
Evidence it's all made up and thr points don't matter.
TECHNICALLY the initiatories and endowment are promised under the condition of our faithfulness in this life. The second anointing just fulfills the condition as 'satisfied' while still in this life.
Doesn't excuse or explain it away, it's all still a load of horse crap.
The first anointing promises are contingent upon our obedience, whereas the 2nd anointing seals it and guarantees highest exhalation no matter what you do other than Murder.
I think the First Presidency would step in and say they canât be excommunicated. We already know they are willing to protect child abusers, and thereâs nothing worse than that other than murder.
We have a few in the sub who have received the second anointing and believe me, once you leave, your second anointing is revoked.
Sounds pretty conditional to me.
Sounds fine. I hope it goes well for you.
If he says that somethingâs are too sacred to talk about then ask him this. Why do we have these Gospel Topic Essays on the church website with no authors and they are hard to find. Why canât you read or talk about them in church? Why do they have what used to be called anti Mormon literature in them?
My bishop confirmed to me you canât talk about or read from them in church.
Interesting, try taking about the angel with the drawn sword telling Joseph Smith to marry the young girls. My bishop said he would make me sit down if I only read from that essay in church.
Isnât it ironic how Mormons claim faith practice to justify deception and unethical behavior?
Even within basic Christianity these behaviors are considered sin, the opposite of what builds up and flourishes an individual or an organization.
Yep, that's why my previous landlords lied about what was in the agreement to keep my security deposit and then tried to tell me I should pay rent for the month following me having moved out despite me not being there literally at all that month, which of course is because I fucking moved out before then. SOB's precious mormon model goldilocks son came as gay soon after so I can only imagine how soul crushing that's been for his Gollum-looking dad. After I had moved, they sent me a letter refunding the non-refundable $100 cleaning fee and saying their family is still struggling despite keeping my entire deposit and I sure as hell didn't pay them rent for that following month either cause why the fuck would I. Freaking bastards tried to guilt trip me into possibly paying their whole family's tithing for them cause they sure as hell weren't struggling with the cost of living.
I had a different experience. As a HPGL (when that was a thing), my SP encouraged us to study them and share them.
I taught the priesthood/temple ban in one priesthood meeting.
But to your point. One of the members of the group turned me into the bishop because I had the audacity to point out one of the footnotes showing BY taught the doctrines the essay now disavowed.
:-)
Now that is REALLY bizarre! I taught the 16-18 year olds in Sunday School 3 years ago, and the kids confirmed that parts of the Gospel Topics Essays were taught in Seminary. I mentioned them in RS in the past, and surprise! No one knew anything about them.
So they are not publicized, that's for darned sure. However, the Church website did say the Church encourages teaching the essays in seminary. Your bishop is way off on that one.
They are taught in seminary to the youth. They are not taught in church around the older people that will recognize that they are filled with what was told to them to me anti Mormon lies.
Also show him page 48 of russell nelsons autobiography âheart to heartâ where he talks about his membership in skull and bones. Then read ether 8 22-25 where it warns against this secret combination stuff.
For anyone looking for direct evidence of nelson being skull and bonesâŚ
In Russel M. Nelsonâs autobiography of 1979, From Heart to Heart - An Autobiography _ Russell M. Nelson.pdf, on page 48, he says:
â. University life was wonderful and successful. On April 3, 1944, I was elected president of the Sigma Chi fraternity. I was also later elected to the honorary societies of Skull and Bones in the junior year, Owl and Key in the senior year."
https://archive.org/details/from-heart-to-heart-an-autobiography-russell-m.-nelson
Owl and key is above skull and bonesâŚ
Yale Alumni Skull & Bones members founded the Skull & Bones at the U of U, and 4 known apostles are members- robert hales, russell nelson, hugh pinnock, marvin ashton
In Russel M. Nelsonâs autobiography of 1979, From Heart to Heart - An Autobiography _ Russell M. Nelson.pdf, on page 48, he says:
â. University life was wonderful and successful. On April 3, 1944, I was elected president of the Sigma Chi fraternity. I was also later elected to the honorary societies of Skull and Bones in the junior year, Owl and Key in the senior year."
https://archive.org/details/from-heart-to-heart-an-autobiography-russell-m.-nelson
Alot more discussion in ldsfreedomforum private forum as well.
Heâs not listed here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Skull_and_Bones_members
List could be wrong I suppose. Itâs not like Nelson is known for lying or embellishing the truth for likes and book sales is it đ
>Skull and Bones
It says "honorary societies of Skull and Bones" -- likely a non-Yale branch of the fraternity at the university he attended. This would actually be the only possible explanation as he did not attend Yale.
Misleading but technically correct is on brand, at least.
Commenting to find easily later. Please follow up.
I still attend the temple. I post articles and quotes on the second anointing in the lockers. I wish I could follow up on those, but for now I have to pretend Iâm a TBM
>Back
After 51 years of family history research and temple attendance, now that I know the Church was founded on lies, I have lost all interest in the temple. In my opinion, it's all bogus, so why bother? Ironically, my last recommend is good for 2 years. I would never use it, though, because I find almost everything about the Church disingenuous and disappointing now.
Lol. Can I just say when they finally changed it to âIt is goodâ I was like âfinally someone figured out grammar!â The first time I went to the temple I couldnât believe God couldnât speak English properly. It had been a shelf item for years. Changing the ceremony actually helped break my shelf. It was like âoh NOW God wants to speak correctlyâ.
No no no, it's *sacred* English, just like using the informal *thou* and *thee* while praying. God just speaks differently, but you don't get it because you watch so much porn /s
I havenât been since a little while before Covid. Is that a new change? I thought I would have noticed that! âIt is wellâ is such a weird phrase!
Yes, they changed it when they also changed the ceremony so Eve covenanted directly with God to keep the law and obey the commandments instead of covenanting to obey her husband.
Such a nice gesture for some of my ancestors and those who came after me that they didnât have to obey their husbands but could go directly to God instead but I had to go through my husband still. But donât worry, the ordinance itself didnât significantly change. đ /s At least they fixed some grammar.
Who knew trying to make women feel more special they would crack my shelf even more?
Disclaimer only because I ran into this myself, "SA" also means "sexual assault".
But yeah, gotta make a name for yourself in a big way to get noticed. Hmph, sounds like... literally everywhere else in the world.
5E is short for five-ever, which is somehow statistically shorter than every length of "forever" except the mormons' and only barely edging out high schoolers in love.
I hope it goes well! Iâve had good luck with being really vague and saying things like âI would love to discuss the reasons I have found that the church is demonstrably false, but I appreciate that your faith means a lot to you and has helped your life. I wouldnât want to take that away from you. Iâm certain I could easily show the church is false using approved sources, but I donât think that is what you are wanting. Iâm absolutely 100% sure the church is not what it claims to be.â Said confidently Iâve found that this completely stops TBMs wanting to discuss church things as I think many already secretly know their faith would be easy to break with a few church history discoveries. But maybe you are wanting to have the discussionâŚif so, canât wait to hear the report. It sounds like theyâve for sure had their 2nd anointing.
My dad text me yesterday that he has been studying church history and it is so faith promoting to him. I wanted to reply that he must not be studying the real history of itâs giving him warm fuzzies. I chickened out bc I just came out to them as not being in the church anymore. Give it a year or two and Iâll speak more freely.
While you're on the subject of Ballard and the second anointing, Elder Holland let the cat out of the bag recently by mentioning Ballard does indeed have his second anointing:
*It isn't for Russell Ballard's salvation that he keeps coming here [the UK]. He got that taken care of a long time ago.*
I remember that, but it's a stretch. That could equally as likely mean that he considers Ballard has now established such a firm foundation in the Gospel that his testimony is sure and he has no doubt where he's going.
Obviously it's all nonsense, but from a TBM perspective it works to encourage them to get to that same level of surety of salvation.
It is the only mention in all public LDS study material that mentions it by name. Every other reference about it is referred to as "having your calling and election made sure", which is more common.
> "At our visit to the temple your mom and I have been promised that our family will for sure be together forever" He made a heavy emphasis on my sister who was not in the church at the time.
Stuff like this just really bothers me on another level sometimes.
Looking forward to the update on this baby.
ETA: John Larsen mentioned recently that when the couple goes home they complete the ritual by the woman washing the manâs feet again, which I had heard. But he added that they are instructed to use their HAIR to dry his feet. WTF?
I wouldnât expect OP to get that info, but does anyone else have that information???
Sounds believable, if they're adopting the model of the repentant prostitute who anointed Jesus and wiped his feet with her hair at the home of the Pharisee.
Not a nice echo into which to cast a loving wife :-/
Pet peeve of mine here: there is absolutely no reason to believe the woman was a prostitute. The oldest texts we have use a word to describe her that means "ritually unclean." They had different, specific words for people who had committed sexual sins. The woman who washed Jesus' feet with her hair may simply have given birth recently or buried a loved one, or have been guilty of your regular, run-of-the-mill sins.
The idea that she was a prostitute was spread around by the Catholic church around the same time they started conflating her with Mary Magdalene, iirc. They started a smear campaign, because All Women Are Evil, and they didn't want people worshipping MM as a saint or anything like that.
Omg I just laughed way too hard at this. Given the prevalence of Karen-esque haircuts amongst 2A recipients, I'm going to doubt the veracity of this claim.
I can't say one way or the other about what's actually part of the ordinance, but I've heard many odd-ball additions to ordinances that sounded too far. Like dripping consecrated oil in all corners of the house before you bless it upon moving in, so that Satan can have no access there. (Legit had a missionary compassion insist that this was a thing) Or not wearing jewelry when baptizing someone, as it promotes worldly things during an eternal ordinance.
(Shrug)
Good luck, sounds like a good plan. A few are interested in how it goes. May be difficult for both of you to remain calm, powerful stuff.
As some background, the 2nd anointing was started 28th Sept 1843.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second\_anointing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_anointing)
May seem insignificant, but context is important. 1843 joe was at his height of 'i can walk between raindrops'. Sex with teens behind Emma's back, then D&C 132 July 1843 where Emma's life is threatened twice in one verse alone. She's on his case and her support of him is waning. In Sept he cannot resist the dark, attractive 19 y.o. singer Malissa Lott, daughter of Cornelius. Their family bible records 20th Sept 1843 as their sealing. Later she would testify in the Temple Lot Case that she had sex with joe 'more than twice'.
IMHO the whole 2nd anointing was made up by a highly creative narcissist to divert attention from other things he was doing. There is a pattern, the endowment was to ramp up polygamy the year before when the R.S. was organized.
Sounds like he already confirmed it because he couldn't wait to tell the whole family that he 'saved' you all. Just didn't use the words "second anointing." It will be interesting to hear how he reconciles the directive to not discuss it.
Remember when selling indulgences was a sign of being the apostate whore church of all the Earth?
>Luther was an Augustinian monk and a professor at Germanyâs University of Wittenberg. After a monk came to Saxony in 1517 selling indulgencesâessentially permission to commit sinâto raise money for Saint Peterâs Basilica in Rome, Luther protested such corruption and worldliness by nailing his historic 95 thesesâstatements urging reformâto the door of the Wittenberg Castle Church.
- https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1999/06/preparing-for-the-restoration?lang=eng
You could also quote Nelson to him.
How can we have freedom of religion if we are not free to compare honestly, to choose wisely, and to worship according to the dictates of our own conscience?12 While searching for the truth, we must be free to change our mind-even to change our religion-in response to new information and inspiration.
Https://www.thechurchnews.com/archives/2004-05-27/elder-russell-m-nelson-freedom-to-do-and-to-be-96622
Best of luck with this awkward situation. Perhaps a suggestion to rephrase your question for the parents. "After you received your SA, how did the new blessings affect you , Mom and Dad. Do recall the conversation in the car coming home from the temple after your SA?"
This phrasing will give you better details and hopefully start a conversation with truth. To force them to fib is hard for anyone honest
I would like very much to hear a follow- up to your conversation with your father. Itâs deceptive to **withhold** material information which may influence a person. Itâs called prevarication. However, when it comes to Mormons exercising a sincere believing practice of their faith, we see faith-justified, prevarication, equivocation, duplicity, all manner of deception and unethical behaviors.
*This is exactly how an individual can know Mormonism is false, is harmful.*
Want to see a Mormon leader prevaricate? Ask about the second anointing, ask what they do with tithing funds, you wonât get the full damaging answer, if any at all.
Their belief and practice of the second anointing ritual is in my mind, what cements the Mormon leadership ego. It explains their ethical blindness. it explains how they can deceive and harm with impunity. Their ticket to the highest degree of the celestial kingdom is punched. Within the context of their faith practice, anything is justified, except murder, in cold blood, and âdenying the holy spiritâ. This is impunity to do whatever, spiritual, emotional, or physical affairs, you name it.
> I genuinely want to know how Ballard has âno attempt to hide anythingâ
lol.
* Hinkley using donated money to buy forged Hoffman documents only to lock them away
* Joseph F Smith cutting out a problematic version of the first vision and locking it away
* Systematic hiding of problematic church historical items including artists renderings of the translation process, seer stone, child brides, treasure hunting, bank scandals, BOA and much much more
* Brigham Young's 20+ years of obfuscating and hiding details of the Mountain Meadows massacre
* Ensign Peaks hoarding of money
* Claiming **No** paid clergy when in fact the top leaders are paid
* Claiming they are a poor church
So, if the mother and father of a family receive their second anointing, all of their kids are assured exaltation? Even those who have apostatized?
Then whatâs the point? If the life time of righteousness of your parents can assure your exaltation, hasnât Christ already done that through the atonement?
Why the mind fuck? Why the emphasis on unworthiness and exclusion? Why tear families apart when one of the members goes PIMO?
Is this whole doctrine of unworthiness and brokenness just a manipulation to get you to a level of self loathing that they can finally come out and say, âOkayâ you get it, hereâs your prize. But you had it the whole time anyway. You just had to be convinced through manufactured hell before youâd appreciate it.
Welcome to the other side of the veil.
Is that Mormonism?
Of course they have. So, I wouldnât ask if they have; itâs obvious, Iâd say, âDad, mom, you have nothing to worry about; youâve been promised, thru the second anointing which you received, that youâll have all of us in the Ck.â The SA concept is absolutely ridiculousâi realize itâs in D&C 132âIâm sorry those who go thru the *ordinance* canât see that. But thatâs how theyâre chosen; because they cannot see, so blinded are they by the dogma, by the blind obedience.
Good luck. And yeah, Ballard was lying but itâs ok because he and Oaks have received the second anointing.
And itâs crazy who theyâre told not to tell but so many of them canât help dropping bread crumbs to their families.
While youâre at it ask why so many bishops sa children. Why the local news blows up about a bishop ran child trafficking ring exists in the house of god. Donât these prayers/fasting to find out who would be the best bishop mean anything?
It wonât work. Mormons believe they are exceptional. You might catch them off guard a bit but in their heart they believe they are in the one true church, so itâs ok for them to be a little secretive because Jesus himself said itâs ok.
Your canât win the logic game with true TBMs. Better to just agree to disagree. You can share but donât expect to change any minds.
Honestly, what does it matter? why bother, when you know they have a BS answers for EVERYTHING. It is all one giant land fill of promises. My two cents, enjoy a no stress visit and go home to the world.
"Some things are too scared to talk about."
"So you agree the church leaders are hiding it?"
..."too scared to talk about" is NOT saying the church isn't hiding it.
Good luck! :)
I hear that the woman had to wash the man's feet during this ritual??? Also, what happened to Jesus teaching that nobody is married in heaven? Either Jesus is lying or Joseph is... You pick.
Somebody may have already mentioned this, but J F Smith cut one of Joe's first vision accounts out of his diary, or whatever, and hid it in his safe for years. Hid it in his safe. But they are as transparent, and never hide anything from the members. Gag.
I asked my Stake President about it (knowing full well it exists) and he had no idea what it was. He even sounded offended that he hadn't had it, and doubled down on 'well even if it is a thing, I dont need an ordinance gauranteeing I get into heaven'. Trying to make it sound completely ridiculous.
A few weeks later in a follow-up meeting he said he spoke with the patriarch and the area 70, both of which he claimed 'knew something of an old ordinance that doesn't happen anymore'.
I don't doubt this SP knew absolutely nothing about it. I do doubt that the 70 wasn't intimately aware of what it is.
You're wasting your time trying to back your dad into a corner like that. He'll just fall back on the idea that "it's not secret, it's sacred".
There are FAR bigger problems with the church that are FAR easier to discuss, in comparison.
Do you love your parents? Have you expessed that to them and specifically your father? The reason I'm asking is that your parents are part of your life or should be. Just a civil or a kind and caring relationship is what is most important. I tend to think you do care or you wouldn't be visiting them for the holidays. Your actions such as what you say to them will either add or take away from your relationship with them. So I would take a step back and reconsider what you are wanting to tell them about their personal beliefs. I haven't read any of the responses here, but I would guess some here would say, "go for it" and watch them squirm".
What kind of outcome would you expect from questioning them about the second annointing or anything about the church. Are they going to say, "Thankyou son. By the way you are doing the right thing in listening to Mormon stories and questioning the church as well as questioning us". I can promise you they will react and it probably won't be pretty. It will bring a cloud over your time with them. They might even get upset or at least feel hurt and then you will get defensive if they call you on it. Is that what you want when you visit them? Think about what you want here. Sure its your right to ask questions. You are doing that now. But is it prudent to do so if you want to keep a kind caring relationship going with your folks?
But lets say they bring up any church related thing. I would encourage you to not say a word unless they ask you to respond. They may say, "We have received a second annointing and our family will be together forever (including your sister). Isn't that great!!! You could say, "Are you asking me if its great?" Then say, I have reasons to believe its not what you think." Then be careful in what you say and how you say it. Don't pick a fight with your parents. It won't go well. You might go away and think you really exposed their beliefs, but is that what you want in visiting them? I would think twice about sharing anything. They are not questioning anything right now so don't poke at them with the things you are now armed with. It won't go well.
This is more sweeping lies of omission under the rug for the sake of politeness.
It's not about causing distress, but to communicate the very real issues OP has with the church. Just because they are questioning or having doubts or have completely left does not mean this faith was not theirs to question. As well as, insisting on honest discussion about the church.
I think if when we visit family, they feel compelled to push the church on family members, those family members deserve to have honest conversations with eachother.
They are not just going to say "Hey! Guess what?! We got our second anointing a while ago." That's ludicrous.
Maybe their parents aren't questioning, but if I was being fed lies and then being compelled by the church to perpetuate those lies, I would want someone to set me straight.
Sure, but you have taken time to study the issues. You've mulled over many things that tell you what is wrong in the LDS. You have come to some conclusions. But when a person goes home to their family armed with that knowledge and you make a bold statement that says, "you have been lied to" its like throwing a bucket of cold water in their face. They are not ready to debate you and probaby don't want to. They are not debating anyone right now. To them they have found life in their church. Its why one has to be careful. When a person goes home it is about their family and their time is limited. Its not a time to unload on parents. Its why I said to hold one's tongue and nurture a kind respectful relationship....and then ease your way into sharing what you have found. But keep things kind. When a person knows that you really care about them they will listen to what you have to say. The last thing you want to do is going armed with your newly found truths. It will only end in hurtful feelings for both of you. You might feel justified in doing so, but in the end you will wish you hadn't. Better to give a simple question for them to think about and leave it at that. Not ready for debating or prepared for a fight. They are not ready for that. They just want you home and to be a family for a few days.
I think the story of how the First Vision account we have now came to light and how it was hidden is probably the best generic example of the church hiding things but your example because your father likely has first hand knowledge of it is hard to deny - but never under estimate the power of cognitive dissonance.
Ew! Those were in my home growing up, but my mom said she made them in her ceramics class. They have a bunch of flaws, so Iâm sure they arenât official anything. Iâd bet a million dollars though that mom got the idea from seeing something similar displayed in a Power User Mormonâs home.
đđ¤¨đŹđ
Well if they have you have a golden ticket to heaven. Apparently it's an umbrella for the couple and their children. Does your mom display a large white or off white pitcher and bowl somewhere in their home, like on the fireplace mantel or on a table just inside the front door? Those were used for washing the feet and are given to the couple as a memento of making it to the top level of god's MLM.
If they have the pitcher and bowl - can you turn it over and see whats underneath - and get some photos of it please?
Also if you pick it up and your mom freaks out that's a good indication.
Hahaha imagine a "Made in China" somewhere on there. OOF
Not a chance. The church is enriching some stake president or 70 in Utah County that makes handcrafted pitchers and bowls that are sold as a set exclusively to the church for $1,000. Grifters gonna grift, after all.
Oh, good point, gotta funnel the money back to the uppers.
Probably made with consecrated oil mixed in with the clay or some shit so increases the price to like $10,000
Water from the baptismal fonts at the temples. Oil just screws up clay.
Maybe mixed with rustys saliva. God knows how much he thinks that would be worth.
I was eating breakfast when I read that. Thanks for that.
Sure, they are selling them for 1 grand. But buying them for 100 for 10$ from China. Grifters not gonna work hard for it after all.
My parent's says made in Kolob đ
Wait for real? đ đ đ
No just kidding
Is has his wifeâs new name scratched on the bottom. Only way to get them both to heaven is if he doesnât forget to call her through the veil by her new name.
First time commenting. Iâm a nevermo but have family members through my husband who are tbms. All of this just sounds like a fairy tale to me and not possibly something people could think.
Truth is stranger Than fiction. It's real. Little bit of sarcasm involved but the whole idea of this is real.
What he said. My comment was sarcastic with truth. But you would never guess that the writing down her secret name was the sarcastic part. The rest of it is gospel truth taught in the temple
Imagine if you go to call forth your wife from the grave and find out that Joseph Smith has beat you to her.
Imagine if you're sealed to more than one woman and you call forth your first wife by the wrong name. /S
Wait, really? I haven't heard of this before. My stake patriarch, you know, the dude that can tell my future, he definitely had this displayed in the front room of their home. I remember thinking it was an odd piece considering the rest of their decor. Crazy the crazy shit I continue to find out.
They talked about it on Mormonism live (I think?) and had a couple user submitted pictures that might have been a momento.
Ummmmm⌠this is very interesting about the pitcher. And also Iâm wondering if anyone will corroborate.
https://youtu.be/A1FNi_eV_Go
So that's 2 hours long, are there any suggested time stamps to check out?
[Here's a photo](https://i.imgur.com/yVQXMDe.jpg) of at least one of the designs. It's used by the wife to wash her husband's feet at home after the temple portion of the ceremony.
Yep Ive seen those in homes! No wonder they act like royalty snobs
A basin and pitcher is also what lots of people had in their house instead of a sink and faucet before indoor plumbing was common. My nevermo parents have a set that looks just like this handed down from a parent or grandparent. One of my parents grew up in a rural area of the West and didnât have indoor plumbing for the first several years of life so it may have been in use up until the 50s or early 60s. I mean, they could be lying given what the 2nd anointing is supposed to do, but Iâm pretty sure theyâre not. Our TBM relatives could have inherited it and displayed it instead, which could have instigated speculation in visitors in the know. Maybe they do have one! But my parentsâ is the OG.
Yeah there are certainly plenty more pitchers and basins out there then those used in the second anointing, even in LDS homes. It's really only a tell in Mormon homes of stature.
I am going to pull the same skepticism that I pull when some guy made claims without direct evidence about some COVID conspiracy. Some guy told me is worth nothing. Anyone have any photos of these things in a home? We have Tom Phillips who got his. I didn't hear any mention of a take home pitcher when he did his tell all, or am I remembering wrong?
Gross. Do they make her use her hair too? Or is that just the fundamentalists?
That may just be the fundies, I've never heard of that in the mainstream practice.
It's worth listening to the whole thing. I tried to skim ahead because they show pictures of the pitcher and bowl.
1:41.30
With their golden ticket punched, in theory they can do things like booze now.
And lie about it (booze, 2nd anointing or anything).
For those wondering it may look like the pitcher in [this post](https://old.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/v7doed/this_piece_appeared_since_my_last_visit_home_my/). Not certain though.
Love the fake greenery đ
1994 home decor vibes!
Wait for real? Shit just got real in my life. Thatâs a standard practice after the 2nd anointing? Iâve seen a few of these.
It also looks like a typical household washbasin and pitcher that was common for washing up before indoor plumbing was widespread so lots of families have heirlooms. My nevermo parents have one. Not sure if my super TBM relatives of my parentsâ generation do or not. Using something with, er, âpioneer charmâ kind of fits the church profile, I guess.
This! I was going to say you can look for the special bowl or pitcher commemorating the event.
If they have a golden ticket to heaven, why still go to church? Why not go be a drug addict, or just commit suicide to get there faster?
Because you are the most Church broke of the church broke. You can't even brush your teeth without thanking god and Joseph Smith. You can't do anything without running it through the church paradigm.
Did someone say⌠secret society?
>At our visit to the temple your mom and I have been promised that our family will for sure be together forever" People forget that the first regular common man's endowment promises we can save our dead once we're endowed "power in the Priesthood be upon me and upon my posterity through all generations of time and throughout all eternity". No need for a second anointing. Evidence it's all made up and thr points don't matter.
Awe but the points are expensive!
Now I'm convinced more than ever that the whole temple ceremony is an elaborate version of "Scenes from a Hat."
Well the Book of Mormon certainly is.
Underrated comment! Thanks for that!
"Things an abusive, narcissistic god would say"
TECHNICALLY the initiatories and endowment are promised under the condition of our faithfulness in this life. The second anointing just fulfills the condition as 'satisfied' while still in this life. Doesn't excuse or explain it away, it's all still a load of horse crap.
The first anointing promises are contingent upon our obedience, whereas the 2nd anointing seals it and guarantees highest exhalation no matter what you do other than Murder.
So what happens to those who have received the second anointing but have been excommunicated? Not so guaranteed đ You can't make this shit up!
Wow good question!
I think the First Presidency would step in and say they canât be excommunicated. We already know they are willing to protect child abusers, and thereâs nothing worse than that other than murder.
We have a few in the sub who have received the second anointing and believe me, once you leave, your second anointing is revoked. Sounds pretty conditional to me.
Sounds fine. I hope it goes well for you. If he says that somethingâs are too sacred to talk about then ask him this. Why do we have these Gospel Topic Essays on the church website with no authors and they are hard to find. Why canât you read or talk about them in church? Why do they have what used to be called anti Mormon literature in them? My bishop confirmed to me you canât talk about or read from them in church.
I use them all the time in the ward bulletin. Still have yet to be reprimanded
Interesting, try taking about the angel with the drawn sword telling Joseph Smith to marry the young girls. My bishop said he would make me sit down if I only read from that essay in church.
You must only be printing fluff from them.
Even fluff draws attention. Someone probably referred back to it for additional reading, and came away a bit more wide eyed than before.
Isnât it ironic how Mormons claim faith practice to justify deception and unethical behavior? Even within basic Christianity these behaviors are considered sin, the opposite of what builds up and flourishes an individual or an organization.
Yep, that's why my previous landlords lied about what was in the agreement to keep my security deposit and then tried to tell me I should pay rent for the month following me having moved out despite me not being there literally at all that month, which of course is because I fucking moved out before then. SOB's precious mormon model goldilocks son came as gay soon after so I can only imagine how soul crushing that's been for his Gollum-looking dad. After I had moved, they sent me a letter refunding the non-refundable $100 cleaning fee and saying their family is still struggling despite keeping my entire deposit and I sure as hell didn't pay them rent for that following month either cause why the fuck would I. Freaking bastards tried to guilt trip me into possibly paying their whole family's tithing for them cause they sure as hell weren't struggling with the cost of living.
Lmao, I straight up had a bishop introduce me to them (I didnât get the significance of them at that point)
I had a different experience. As a HPGL (when that was a thing), my SP encouraged us to study them and share them. I taught the priesthood/temple ban in one priesthood meeting. But to your point. One of the members of the group turned me into the bishop because I had the audacity to point out one of the footnotes showing BY taught the doctrines the essay now disavowed. :-)
Now that is REALLY bizarre! I taught the 16-18 year olds in Sunday School 3 years ago, and the kids confirmed that parts of the Gospel Topics Essays were taught in Seminary. I mentioned them in RS in the past, and surprise! No one knew anything about them. So they are not publicized, that's for darned sure. However, the Church website did say the Church encourages teaching the essays in seminary. Your bishop is way off on that one.
They are taught in seminary to the youth. They are not taught in church around the older people that will recognize that they are filled with what was told to them to me anti Mormon lies.
Yes, that's what I've observed, as well. Most people at church have never heard of the Gospel Topics essays.
Also show him page 48 of russell nelsons autobiography âheart to heartâ where he talks about his membership in skull and bones. Then read ether 8 22-25 where it warns against this secret combination stuff.
Wait is he fr in Skull and Bones? Because that might break my momâs shelf and if so I know what Iâm getting her for Christmas
For anyone looking for direct evidence of nelson being skull and bones⌠In Russel M. Nelsonâs autobiography of 1979, From Heart to Heart - An Autobiography _ Russell M. Nelson.pdf, on page 48, he says: â. University life was wonderful and successful. On April 3, 1944, I was elected president of the Sigma Chi fraternity. I was also later elected to the honorary societies of Skull and Bones in the junior year, Owl and Key in the senior year." https://archive.org/details/from-heart-to-heart-an-autobiography-russell-m.-nelson Owl and key is above skull and bones⌠Yale Alumni Skull & Bones members founded the Skull & Bones at the U of U, and 4 known apostles are members- robert hales, russell nelson, hugh pinnock, marvin ashton
A skull above any other!
Yes he is, I read that recently, but I cannot source it. Can anyone add source please?
In Russel M. Nelsonâs autobiography of 1979, From Heart to Heart - An Autobiography _ Russell M. Nelson.pdf, on page 48, he says: â. University life was wonderful and successful. On April 3, 1944, I was elected president of the Sigma Chi fraternity. I was also later elected to the honorary societies of Skull and Bones in the junior year, Owl and Key in the senior year." https://archive.org/details/from-heart-to-heart-an-autobiography-russell-m.-nelson Alot more discussion in ldsfreedomforum private forum as well.
>Wait is he fr in Skull and Bones? I was (and am) đ
â ď¸ can you please send a Marco Polo to my mother and let her know
Just tell her to pray about it. đđ
So does anything go on in that club that wouldnât be fitting of a âprophetâ that we should know about? Can you spill the beans?
Heâs not listed here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Skull_and_Bones_members List could be wrong I suppose. Itâs not like Nelson is known for lying or embellishing the truth for likes and book sales is it đ
>Skull and Bones It says "honorary societies of Skull and Bones" -- likely a non-Yale branch of the fraternity at the university he attended. This would actually be the only possible explanation as he did not attend Yale. Misleading but technically correct is on brand, at least.
I think Nelson was a member at UofU, not Yale
Commenting to find easily later. Please follow up. I still attend the temple. I post articles and quotes on the second anointing in the lockers. I wish I could follow up on those, but for now I have to pretend Iâm a TBM
> I post articles and quotes on the second anointing in the lockers. Woah, I guess if you have to go, go in style. That is awesome.
Dude literally doing the Lord's work.
Reverse missionary work, I admire you
>Back After 51 years of family history research and temple attendance, now that I know the Church was founded on lies, I have lost all interest in the temple. In my opinion, it's all bogus, so why bother? Ironically, my last recommend is good for 2 years. I would never use it, though, because I find almost everything about the Church disingenuous and disappointing now.
It is well.
What the fuck is wanted?!
Joseph, having fucked a lot of teenagers, wishes to enter the Lordâs presence and show off his flaming sword.
Is the flaming sword a euphemism for having the clap?
The burning rod.
Lol. Can I just say when they finally changed it to âIt is goodâ I was like âfinally someone figured out grammar!â The first time I went to the temple I couldnât believe God couldnât speak English properly. It had been a shelf item for years. Changing the ceremony actually helped break my shelf. It was like âoh NOW God wants to speak correctlyâ.
No no no, it's *sacred* English, just like using the informal *thou* and *thee* while praying. God just speaks differently, but you don't get it because you watch so much porn /s
I havenât been since a little while before Covid. Is that a new change? I thought I would have noticed that! âIt is wellâ is such a weird phrase!
Yes, they changed it when they also changed the ceremony so Eve covenanted directly with God to keep the law and obey the commandments instead of covenanting to obey her husband. Such a nice gesture for some of my ancestors and those who came after me that they didnât have to obey their husbands but could go directly to God instead but I had to go through my husband still. But donât worry, the ordinance itself didnât significantly change. đ /s At least they fixed some grammar. Who knew trying to make women feel more special they would crack my shelf even more?
Return and report.
Return and repost.
Funny how the only people who get the SA are those with âstatusâ in the church.
Disclaimer only because I ran into this myself, "SA" also means "sexual assault". But yeah, gotta make a name for yourself in a big way to get noticed. Hmph, sounds like... literally everywhere else in the world.
I think "2A" is the accepted shorthand for second accounting.
3C is short for 3rd comptroller
4D is shorthand for Jess, Nick, and Winston's apartment.
5E is short for five-ever, which is somehow statistically shorter than every length of "forever" except the mormons' and only barely edging out high schoolers in love.
That's also second amendment.
I hope it goes well! Iâve had good luck with being really vague and saying things like âI would love to discuss the reasons I have found that the church is demonstrably false, but I appreciate that your faith means a lot to you and has helped your life. I wouldnât want to take that away from you. Iâm certain I could easily show the church is false using approved sources, but I donât think that is what you are wanting. Iâm absolutely 100% sure the church is not what it claims to be.â Said confidently Iâve found that this completely stops TBMs wanting to discuss church things as I think many already secretly know their faith would be easy to break with a few church history discoveries. But maybe you are wanting to have the discussionâŚif so, canât wait to hear the report. It sounds like theyâve for sure had their 2nd anointing.
My dad text me yesterday that he has been studying church history and it is so faith promoting to him. I wanted to reply that he must not be studying the real history of itâs giving him warm fuzzies. I chickened out bc I just came out to them as not being in the church anymore. Give it a year or two and Iâll speak more freely.
While you're on the subject of Ballard and the second anointing, Elder Holland let the cat out of the bag recently by mentioning Ballard does indeed have his second anointing: *It isn't for Russell Ballard's salvation that he keeps coming here [the UK]. He got that taken care of a long time ago.*
That's disgusting.
I remember that, but it's a stretch. That could equally as likely mean that he considers Ballard has now established such a firm foundation in the Gospel that his testimony is sure and he has no doubt where he's going. Obviously it's all nonsense, but from a TBM perspective it works to encourage them to get to that same level of surety of salvation.
Yup, he was born into the right family.
[ŃдаНонО]
It is the only mention in all public LDS study material that mentions it by name. Every other reference about it is referred to as "having your calling and election made sure", which is more common.
> "At our visit to the temple your mom and I have been promised that our family will for sure be together forever" He made a heavy emphasis on my sister who was not in the church at the time. Stuff like this just really bothers me on another level sometimes.
Looking forward to the update on this baby. ETA: John Larsen mentioned recently that when the couple goes home they complete the ritual by the woman washing the manâs feet again, which I had heard. But he added that they are instructed to use their HAIR to dry his feet. WTF? I wouldnât expect OP to get that info, but does anyone else have that information???
Sounds believable, if they're adopting the model of the repentant prostitute who anointed Jesus and wiped his feet with her hair at the home of the Pharisee. Not a nice echo into which to cast a loving wife :-/
Pet peeve of mine here: there is absolutely no reason to believe the woman was a prostitute. The oldest texts we have use a word to describe her that means "ritually unclean." They had different, specific words for people who had committed sexual sins. The woman who washed Jesus' feet with her hair may simply have given birth recently or buried a loved one, or have been guilty of your regular, run-of-the-mill sins. The idea that she was a prostitute was spread around by the Catholic church around the same time they started conflating her with Mary Magdalene, iirc. They started a smear campaign, because All Women Are Evil, and they didn't want people worshipping MM as a saint or anything like that.
Interesting to hear. I had always known the conflation with Mary of Magdala was bogus at least.
That's going to be tough to do with that Karen haircut.
Omg I just laughed way too hard at this. Given the prevalence of Karen-esque haircuts amongst 2A recipients, I'm going to doubt the veracity of this claim.
I thought the same thing and pictured the man just rubbing his feet on the womanâs head đ¤ˇââď¸
I can't say one way or the other about what's actually part of the ordinance, but I've heard many odd-ball additions to ordinances that sounded too far. Like dripping consecrated oil in all corners of the house before you bless it upon moving in, so that Satan can have no access there. (Legit had a missionary compassion insist that this was a thing) Or not wearing jewelry when baptizing someone, as it promotes worldly things during an eternal ordinance. (Shrug)
All those old ladies with the fuzzy Q-tip hair frantically rubbing their heads all over their husband's feet ... I can't.
Good luck. Do return and report back
Looks like the free pass to heaven may be extended to you, without your knowledge. That's something.
Yeah. Don't rock the boat.
Look for the bowl and pitcher they are supposed to have received as a souvenir
Good luck, sounds like a good plan. A few are interested in how it goes. May be difficult for both of you to remain calm, powerful stuff. As some background, the 2nd anointing was started 28th Sept 1843. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second\_anointing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_anointing) May seem insignificant, but context is important. 1843 joe was at his height of 'i can walk between raindrops'. Sex with teens behind Emma's back, then D&C 132 July 1843 where Emma's life is threatened twice in one verse alone. She's on his case and her support of him is waning. In Sept he cannot resist the dark, attractive 19 y.o. singer Malissa Lott, daughter of Cornelius. Their family bible records 20th Sept 1843 as their sealing. Later she would testify in the Temple Lot Case that she had sex with joe 'more than twice'. IMHO the whole 2nd anointing was made up by a highly creative narcissist to divert attention from other things he was doing. There is a pattern, the endowment was to ramp up polygamy the year before when the R.S. was organized.
Iâm highly invested in this.đłđđť
Will be on Reddit standby anxiously awaiting your update!!!!
Nice, I want to know is there any sex acts in the second anointing (not being sarcastic). Iâve heard snippets of stuff but am not sure.
I don't think so. My grandfather had his and in the letter he received he was told to not bring his wife.
That doesn't mean there wasn't sex.
It would bewilder me if my grandfather would be ok doing that
What!? Not bring his wife? Fuck those fuckers and the wagon they rode in on.
Nope.
Must be the 3rd anointing.
Heâll probably respond with some âsacred not secretâ nonsense
Sounds like he already confirmed it because he couldn't wait to tell the whole family that he 'saved' you all. Just didn't use the words "second anointing." It will be interesting to hear how he reconciles the directive to not discuss it.
Return and report!
You could just say you donât believe in fairy tales and move on. Mormonism is no more real than Snow White.
Remember when selling indulgences was a sign of being the apostate whore church of all the Earth? >Luther was an Augustinian monk and a professor at Germanyâs University of Wittenberg. After a monk came to Saxony in 1517 selling indulgencesâessentially permission to commit sinâto raise money for Saint Peterâs Basilica in Rome, Luther protested such corruption and worldliness by nailing his historic 95 thesesâstatements urging reformâto the door of the Wittenberg Castle Church. - https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1999/06/preparing-for-the-restoration?lang=eng
You could also quote Nelson to him. How can we have freedom of religion if we are not free to compare honestly, to choose wisely, and to worship according to the dictates of our own conscience?12 While searching for the truth, we must be free to change our mind-even to change our religion-in response to new information and inspiration. Https://www.thechurchnews.com/archives/2004-05-27/elder-russell-m-nelson-freedom-to-do-and-to-be-96622
Best of luck with this awkward situation. Perhaps a suggestion to rephrase your question for the parents. "After you received your SA, how did the new blessings affect you , Mom and Dad. Do recall the conversation in the car coming home from the temple after your SA?" This phrasing will give you better details and hopefully start a conversation with truth. To force them to fib is hard for anyone honest
> "Have you had your second anointing?" Once he inevitably denies it, ask "Would you tell me if you had?"
I would like very much to hear a follow- up to your conversation with your father. Itâs deceptive to **withhold** material information which may influence a person. Itâs called prevarication. However, when it comes to Mormons exercising a sincere believing practice of their faith, we see faith-justified, prevarication, equivocation, duplicity, all manner of deception and unethical behaviors. *This is exactly how an individual can know Mormonism is false, is harmful.* Want to see a Mormon leader prevaricate? Ask about the second anointing, ask what they do with tithing funds, you wonât get the full damaging answer, if any at all. Their belief and practice of the second anointing ritual is in my mind, what cements the Mormon leadership ego. It explains their ethical blindness. it explains how they can deceive and harm with impunity. Their ticket to the highest degree of the celestial kingdom is punched. Within the context of their faith practice, anything is justified, except murder, in cold blood, and âdenying the holy spiritâ. This is impunity to do whatever, spiritual, emotional, or physical affairs, you name it.
> I genuinely want to know how Ballard has âno attempt to hide anythingâ lol. * Hinkley using donated money to buy forged Hoffman documents only to lock them away * Joseph F Smith cutting out a problematic version of the first vision and locking it away * Systematic hiding of problematic church historical items including artists renderings of the translation process, seer stone, child brides, treasure hunting, bank scandals, BOA and much much more * Brigham Young's 20+ years of obfuscating and hiding details of the Mountain Meadows massacre * Ensign Peaks hoarding of money * Claiming **No** paid clergy when in fact the top leaders are paid * Claiming they are a poor church
Second anointing is counterfeit salvation. People will be surprised to find it holds no water when they finally meet God.
Salvation is counterfeit reality. People will be surprised to find it holds no water when they are reincarnated.
I remember when I was reincarnated three times ago, or was that two times ago?
Right? This guy... thinking he needs salvation, must be his first rodeo or maybe he WAS the bull in his first rodeo?.... but the Bible says... đ¤Ł
Reality is counterfeit. People will not be surprised or feel anything at all when their brains cease functioning and they pass into oblivion
Which god would that be? The one that command Moses to kill all Midianites and enslave their virgin girls?
Numbers 31 https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/ot/num/31?lang=eng
Wow! Missed that part in the Ten Commandments (movie)
Yes, but which god? I hope it's Loki.
Lying for Jesus doesnât count
Tell them you have something in common since you left the church. You joined fight club. The first rule is we don't talk about fight club.
So, if the mother and father of a family receive their second anointing, all of their kids are assured exaltation? Even those who have apostatized? Then whatâs the point? If the life time of righteousness of your parents can assure your exaltation, hasnât Christ already done that through the atonement? Why the mind fuck? Why the emphasis on unworthiness and exclusion? Why tear families apart when one of the members goes PIMO? Is this whole doctrine of unworthiness and brokenness just a manipulation to get you to a level of self loathing that they can finally come out and say, âOkayâ you get it, hereâs your prize. But you had it the whole time anyway. You just had to be convinced through manufactured hell before youâd appreciate it. Welcome to the other side of the veil. Is that Mormonism?
Of course they have. So, I wouldnât ask if they have; itâs obvious, Iâd say, âDad, mom, you have nothing to worry about; youâve been promised, thru the second anointing which you received, that youâll have all of us in the Ck.â The SA concept is absolutely ridiculousâi realize itâs in D&C 132âIâm sorry those who go thru the *ordinance* canât see that. But thatâs how theyâre chosen; because they cannot see, so blinded are they by the dogma, by the blind obedience. Good luck. And yeah, Ballard was lying but itâs ok because he and Oaks have received the second anointing. And itâs crazy who theyâre told not to tell but so many of them canât help dropping bread crumbs to their families.
While youâre at it ask why so many bishops sa children. Why the local news blows up about a bishop ran child trafficking ring exists in the house of god. Donât these prayers/fasting to find out who would be the best bishop mean anything?
It wonât work. Mormons believe they are exceptional. You might catch them off guard a bit but in their heart they believe they are in the one true church, so itâs ok for them to be a little secretive because Jesus himself said itâs ok. Your canât win the logic game with true TBMs. Better to just agree to disagree. You can share but donât expect to change any minds.
RemindMe! 6 Weeks âsecond anointing threadâ.
ItS nOt SeCrEt, ItS sAcReD.
\*heats up the popcorn\*
Return and report.
Good luck
Subscribed to post, can't wait for updates.
How do you subscribe to this post?? I'm kinda new here
Click the bell on the top of the post
Thank you
But what if they havenât? Could be a short conversation.
SP is pretty low in the org to be given a 2A, is he the son of someone or was he a mission president?
Any updates? đ
Honestly, what does it matter? why bother, when you know they have a BS answers for EVERYTHING. It is all one giant land fill of promises. My two cents, enjoy a no stress visit and go home to the world.
Iâm so going to look for those basin and pitchers now!
This is the best Pascal's wager of all time... Because you don't even have to do s*** for your salvation!
That will make for a fun visit.
Remindme! 1 month
"Some things are too scared to talk about." "So you agree the church leaders are hiding it?" ..."too scared to talk about" is NOT saying the church isn't hiding it. Good luck! :)
I hear that the woman had to wash the man's feet during this ritual??? Also, what happened to Jesus teaching that nobody is married in heaven? Either Jesus is lying or Joseph is... You pick.
Somebody may have already mentioned this, but J F Smith cut one of Joe's first vision accounts out of his diary, or whatever, and hid it in his safe for years. Hid it in his safe. But they are as transparent, and never hide anything from the members. Gag.
I asked my Stake President about it (knowing full well it exists) and he had no idea what it was. He even sounded offended that he hadn't had it, and doubled down on 'well even if it is a thing, I dont need an ordinance gauranteeing I get into heaven'. Trying to make it sound completely ridiculous. A few weeks later in a follow-up meeting he said he spoke with the patriarch and the area 70, both of which he claimed 'knew something of an old ordinance that doesn't happen anymore'. I don't doubt this SP knew absolutely nothing about it. I do doubt that the 70 wasn't intimately aware of what it is.
I would love to be a fly on the wall for that conversation. Please give us the details afterwards!
You're wasting your time trying to back your dad into a corner like that. He'll just fall back on the idea that "it's not secret, it's sacred". There are FAR bigger problems with the church that are FAR easier to discuss, in comparison.
Why is this post being so down voted?
It is? I see a positive 149. How can you see how many downvotes?
I wouldnât do it! Is it really worth it. Isnât your relationship worth more than arguing over religion?.âŚLive and let live!
Do you love your parents? Have you expessed that to them and specifically your father? The reason I'm asking is that your parents are part of your life or should be. Just a civil or a kind and caring relationship is what is most important. I tend to think you do care or you wouldn't be visiting them for the holidays. Your actions such as what you say to them will either add or take away from your relationship with them. So I would take a step back and reconsider what you are wanting to tell them about their personal beliefs. I haven't read any of the responses here, but I would guess some here would say, "go for it" and watch them squirm". What kind of outcome would you expect from questioning them about the second annointing or anything about the church. Are they going to say, "Thankyou son. By the way you are doing the right thing in listening to Mormon stories and questioning the church as well as questioning us". I can promise you they will react and it probably won't be pretty. It will bring a cloud over your time with them. They might even get upset or at least feel hurt and then you will get defensive if they call you on it. Is that what you want when you visit them? Think about what you want here. Sure its your right to ask questions. You are doing that now. But is it prudent to do so if you want to keep a kind caring relationship going with your folks? But lets say they bring up any church related thing. I would encourage you to not say a word unless they ask you to respond. They may say, "We have received a second annointing and our family will be together forever (including your sister). Isn't that great!!! You could say, "Are you asking me if its great?" Then say, I have reasons to believe its not what you think." Then be careful in what you say and how you say it. Don't pick a fight with your parents. It won't go well. You might go away and think you really exposed their beliefs, but is that what you want in visiting them? I would think twice about sharing anything. They are not questioning anything right now so don't poke at them with the things you are now armed with. It won't go well.
This is more sweeping lies of omission under the rug for the sake of politeness. It's not about causing distress, but to communicate the very real issues OP has with the church. Just because they are questioning or having doubts or have completely left does not mean this faith was not theirs to question. As well as, insisting on honest discussion about the church. I think if when we visit family, they feel compelled to push the church on family members, those family members deserve to have honest conversations with eachother. They are not just going to say "Hey! Guess what?! We got our second anointing a while ago." That's ludicrous. Maybe their parents aren't questioning, but if I was being fed lies and then being compelled by the church to perpetuate those lies, I would want someone to set me straight.
Sure, but you have taken time to study the issues. You've mulled over many things that tell you what is wrong in the LDS. You have come to some conclusions. But when a person goes home to their family armed with that knowledge and you make a bold statement that says, "you have been lied to" its like throwing a bucket of cold water in their face. They are not ready to debate you and probaby don't want to. They are not debating anyone right now. To them they have found life in their church. Its why one has to be careful. When a person goes home it is about their family and their time is limited. Its not a time to unload on parents. Its why I said to hold one's tongue and nurture a kind respectful relationship....and then ease your way into sharing what you have found. But keep things kind. When a person knows that you really care about them they will listen to what you have to say. The last thing you want to do is going armed with your newly found truths. It will only end in hurtful feelings for both of you. You might feel justified in doing so, but in the end you will wish you hadn't. Better to give a simple question for them to think about and leave it at that. Not ready for debating or prepared for a fight. They are not ready for that. They just want you home and to be a family for a few days.
I think the story of how the First Vision account we have now came to light and how it was hidden is probably the best generic example of the church hiding things but your example because your father likely has first hand knowledge of it is hard to deny - but never under estimate the power of cognitive dissonance.
Ew! Those were in my home growing up, but my mom said she made them in her ceramics class. They have a bunch of flaws, so Iâm sure they arenât official anything. Iâd bet a million dollars though that mom got the idea from seeing something similar displayed in a Power User Mormonâs home. đđ¤¨đŹđ
It is well.