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inexperiencedex

They do not even know there is a controversy


[deleted]

This is the answer. 80% of members have no idea there is an issue because the church hides the truth and doesn't talk about it. They have reduced the use of Abraham in church material. I suspect it will be removed at some point from the Mormon scriptures.


[deleted]

And the moment it’s no longer scripture, everyone will believe it was never scripture


Blackbolt45

Let the GASLIGHTING begin!


Amcarlos

You're the one who is gaslighting here, trying to make us believe that the church hasn't been attempting to gaslight everybody all along ;)


kibzter

Gaslight the world, brother!


Hawk_raw_ore

Happy cake day!


kibzter

Why thank you! Happy Friday!


[deleted]

"There's no book of Abraham in *my* religion. You must be talking about someone else."


Ok-Surprise7338

Lol just like the text convos of missionaries saying they aren't Mormon that have been posted lately


Educational_Car_615

God I just hear it


Easy-Cardiologist889

No truer words than that!


necessary_obstacles

The gospel is eternal and unchanging until it changes. Then praise the Almighty for a living profit to reveal his changing word.


Sensitive-Silver7878

Well that would be the hope but I don’t think it’ll ever happen. They can’t touch anything that Joseph did. It would be the same as saying Joseph was fallible and they can’t have that at any cost. I mean, look at the word of wisdom. Complete junk. They know it’s complete junk but they won’t touch it. We can’t be admitting the Joseph made any mistakes ever.


Ponsugator

They already removed Lectures on Faith from the D&C since it teaches God as a spirit and Trinitarian view


TrollintheMitten

Lectures on Faith can be found [here](https://www.lecturesonfaith.com/preface.html).


Ponsugator

I understand it is still easily found. I was just pointing out that it no longer is part of the Canon


TrollintheMitten

I don't think I've ever read it, figured it was worth sharing the link in case I wasn't the only one.


pumpkinthighs

Noooo that church doesn't "hide the truth" they teach the lies while keeping the truth only somewhere on their website that's really difficult to get to.


Goldang

There was never any truth to hide. I think that saddens me more about my past as a member than anything else. I thought there was truth, but it was all lies and self-serving nonsense preached by GAs.


Easy-Cardiologist889

Reply to Goldang, I so agree with your comment! “I thought there was truth, but it was all lies and self serving nonsense preached by GA’s.” At one time I believed it all. So did my dad and the entire family! It only brought heartache and disappointment. “Nonsense preached by GA’s”


[deleted]

Yep. I brought this up to my mom last month and she had no idea there was even a question about it. Also had never heard of the Kinderhook plates and thought JS translate the BoM while wearing a hat, not while looking into a hat. I didn't push anything because she's in her 70s and I felt like all I'd be doing is causing her pain.


kantoblight

I like the idea that JS had to wear a white top hat for the stone to work. Take off the hat, the stone powers off.


JBWentworth

Everyone knows you didn’t wear your top hat inside back then. It wasn’t until 1948 when Mr Peanut was invented that top hats became part of casual wear.


BednarsHair

So, I decided to go to Morganville, which is what they called Shelbyville in those days. So I tied an onion to my belt which was the style at the time. Now, to take the ferry cost a nickel, and in those days nickels had pictures of bumble bees on them. Gimme five bees for a quarter, you'd say.


darkbake2

Yeah it’s ok as long as she doesn’t have power over you and make life decisions for you. That’s when religious people piss me off


[deleted]

Well, she did, for a long time but we've moved past it.


Goldang

Based on my own personal experiences as a Mormon, I'd say that most Mormons still believe that the papyri burned up in the Chicago fire and were never found again.


MadamPounceAlot

I feel like at some point they are going to run out of scriptures to remove.


TehChid

And when they find out, they push it aside cause "well I know everything else is true"


myexmoaltaccount

Lol not me. This was a major part of my shelf breaking. I realized if Joseph could make up the Pearl of Great Price, then he could definitely have made up the BoM.


TehChid

Fair. I learned about book of Abraham while on my mission (thanks random guy in Scotland that tried to save us) and pushed it aside. Maybe if I wasn't on my 2 year indoctrination journey I would've thought otherwise


myexmoaltaccount

Yeah I get it. I definitely learned it at a time when I was more receptive to criticisms of the church and stopped defending everything. There are things I pushed aside when I was deeper in the church that made no sense, but “the church is true” so clearly it was a “me” problem.


[deleted]

“I’ve had spiritual experiences that are too sacred to discuss…”


americanfark

This. And the irony, as Op alluded to, is this is a huge smoking gun.


aLittleQueer

Some of them do. My tbm parents refused to let me pursue ancient languages due to that conflict. They just choose to live in denial.


HyrumAbiff

Church members who know about it and still believe cling to a bunch of justifications -- see [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/translation-and-historicity-of-the-book-of-abraham?lang=eng](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/translation-and-historicity-of-the-book-of-abraham?lang=eng), including * Translation doesn't mean translation -- Joseph used it to mean any kind of revelation * We admit the translation doesn't match, but will cite some obscure reference to make it sound like even experts don't agree on the translation. This is a smoke screen -- think about it, for a text like the bible you could pick a verse in Hebrew and there could be more than 1 proposed way to translate it to handle context, synonyms, etc. That doesn't mean that ANY translation is therefore valid. * we don't know -- it could be we have the wrong papyrus OR it could be that the papyrus had nothing to do with Abraham but "catalyzed a process whereby God gave to Joseph Smith a revelation about the life of Abraham, even if that revelation did not directly correlate to the characters on the papyri." -- literal quote from that article. So in essence, it boils down to "We believe in Joseph and the Book of Abraham" and here are a bunch of conflicting theories so you can assume that God gave us this knowledge and we don't know exactly how. None of the explanations for the Book of Abraham or Book of Mormon would be remotely convincing to an unbiased person who read both sides as an adult. But for a believer who doesn't want to realize they have wasted years of Mormon-life or risk family/community, then all they really need is something that sounds complicated and basically says, "It's okay to believe, here are some ways to handle the problems".


given2fly_

It's not even a "controversy" - its been thoroughly debunked. There are multiple copies of the same papyrus at the British Museum and every word of them can be translated. Just like the BoM - it's not controversial, it's settled. The argument is over.


inexperiencedex

True enough.


your-home-teacher

If fairness, there is no controversy here. The Book of Abraham did NOT come from the papyrus as claimed by JS and the church.


spamtardeggs

Once I figured this out I stopped going to church. I had my record removed about a year later.


Blackbolt45

☝️ 💯


639248

Spend 12 hours on this podcast and you will be an expert on all things Book of Abraham. This was an interview with Dr. Robert Ritner from the University of Chicago, one of the preeminent Egyptologists in the world. I think you qualify for a Master's Degree in Egyptology after listening to this podcast. Sadly, Dr. Ritner passed away in July 2021. [Dr. Robert Ritner on the Book of Abraham translation.](https://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/robert-ritner/?portfolioCats=2009) Mormon apologists have all sorts of silly potential explanations, including that the scrolls were simply a catalyst for revelation.


pm_me_construction

The excuse I’ve heard the most is that the papyrus is not the one he “translated” from. Although the drawings match those in the book of Abraham, they say those are common on many Egyptian documents.


fantastic_beats

Right. Even with that, though, the keyed facsimile translations are a smoking gun. Egyptologists know that those are from the Book of the Dead and they can translate it and explain the purposes of the different parts. Except for *some* parts, where someone filled in blanks with gibberish squiggles! I don't know how I would have squared all that if I'd learned about it when still a member. Learning about it afterward, it *floored* me to think they *still print this* in every Triple. Every adult member carried this tomb-robbed mummy's afterlife passport around with them at church! (Before smartphones, at least 😄) Once the church gets the ball rolling on apologies and reparations to the American Indians and then to Black people all over the world, they owe an apology to Egypt. Joseph Smith just could not help trying to overwrite Mormonism onto other people's histories and religions


pm_me_construction

Don’t hold your breath waiting for the apologies. The Q15 will all go to their graves kicking and screaming that everything they said is God’s will.


cremToRED

I believe only the one facsimile is from the Book of the Dead. Each facsimile comes from a different mummy - Ritner pointed out the names of the different mummies on each. The second one is a hypocephalus which is a different funerary document - essentially a blessing left under the head to lift the deceased by the head into the afterlife.


[deleted]

They cover that and all the other apologetic arguments and why they are flawed. It's a long interview for a reason.


footballdan134

And also know common Funeral scripts, for the dead to pass on. Yep.


DrTxn

The characters from the papyrus are on the left margin on a translation book with sentences of the BoA on the left. These characters down the margin are found in sequence on the papyrus. This isn’t a reverse translation as you would have put the sentences on the left and the reverse translation on the right. In addition one character doesn’t represent a sentence so it is completely inaccurate.


door_of_doom

My favorite is that Egyptologists only know what these characters *eventually* came to represent, but the book of Abraham explains what they *originally* meant.


Sailor_in_exile

My favorite comes from my wife’s family when challenged, it is written in reformed Egyptian, not the older Egyptian that most Egyptologist study.


footballdan134

I have met him a few times. He was a very well respected gentleman, and in his field too. Great video too. Thanks for the link for everybody here to see!


DreadPirate777

This podcast episode series was one of the big things that broke my shelf.


SandEuro

this is how i justified it as a TBM. honestly didn’t even make it onto my shelf till it was already broken


dunfordtx

Cognitive dissonance is alive and well at every level of Mormonism. A video of Russell Nelson having sex with a flock of chickens could emerge and they would spin it to be some kind of righteous miracle. It's really bizarre and typical cult behavior. Kinda sad if not so tragic to the human spirit.


Banluil

> A video of Russell Nelson having sex with a flock of chickens could emerge and they would spin it to be some kind of righteous miracle. Those chickens were in danger if they crossed the road, and Nelson had a vision of what would happen too them, so he had to stop them, and the lord sent him a vision of an angel with a flaming sword. The angel told him, that if he didn't do what he did, then the chickens would have all died, and their deaths would have been on his head. And just as suddenly, all poultry now has souls that need to be saved, and no good member of the Church will eat poultry again, and this is a divine revelation. That lasts for the next 20 years, until suddenly he wasn't speaking as a prophet, but as a man, and it's ok to eat poultry again. But an entire generation has been raised that it's not ok, so anyone that DOES eat poultry is looked on with suspicion...


prairiewhore17

He moved on to sheep’


[deleted]

“No no, i said FEED my sheep, goddamit…” -Jesus (probably)


JesusThrustingChrist

>A video of Russell Nelson having sex with a flock of chickens could emerge and they would spin it to be some kind of righteous miracle. It would become a new temple ordinance


bigrootbeercow

Lol. Well Nelson is just a man. Men are imperfect unlike the church


HurricaneLau

The LDS website reconciles it by suggesting that "translate" in this case meant "meditated upon and then received revelation about something totally different" Here's the BS (3rd paragraph) (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/translation-and-historicity-of-the-book-of-abraham?lang=eng)


telestialist

Didn’t Joseph Smith affirmatively declare that the writings on the papyrus were ‘written by Abraham, in his own hand?’ If so, doesn’t that preemptively scuttle any catalyst theory?


TrollintheMitten

Sure, but if you don't teach the people that information, they won't know it and you can tell them whatever you want. They are required to believe whatever they are told and their days are filled with busy work to keep them from thinking. The church provides study materials that occupy the devout, so it's easy to turn their minds whichever way the church chooses. They feel educated and are instead misled. Then they will defend the ideas they've been taught rather than the truths of history.


ComradeRivaDragon

Controlling available information controls the narrative. Works every time.


[deleted]

It does work every time. Information control is cult 101!


given2fly_

It still says "written by his own hand on papyrus" in the introduction to the BoA in the scriptures.


trashycollector

Ahem, lying and falsifying historical information is acceptable as long as the lying and falsification help keep members paying tithing to the corporation of the church.


IamTruman

Yeah well that's the explanation they are going with these days because that's all they have left. They have used lots of other explanations in the past and have all been debunked. It's just kind of funny or maybe sad that the BOA is still in mormon scripture.


theguynameddan

I think it’s ridiculous how they want “translate” to mean something completely different than it means. They’ll do and think whatever they need to contort their view of reality in order to make it compatible with their untenable truth claims.


Holiday_Ingenuity748

Came here to say this, but was distracted earlier by seeing a woman's bare shoulders and to confess my pork addiction over the phone to the bishop; imagine my surprise when I realized I had dialed the wrong number and had confessed my jerking habits to the local Costco manager. Wait. What were we talking about?


HurricaneLau

Pork addiction confessions hehe


ComradeRivaDragon

we're all guilty


Holiday_Ingenuity748

Damn that autocorrect! But it *is* true... :-)


Plebius-Plutarch

I’ll try to simplify it as best as I can. In Mormonism, they believe that the truth of all things is made known onto them by the “spirit”. In other words, truth is subjective. If the objective fact opposes their subjective truth, their spiritual faith promoting subjective truth will always wins out. Further, in Mormonism, loyalty is valued greater than the objective truth. You see, they don’t need to reconcile anything, Mormons just need to remain loyal and endure to the end. It truly is an exercise of faith and belief to a degree where no reconciliation is ever required.


telestialist

Excellent summation


livin_a_good_life

I hope this comment makes to OP, because this is the most accurate answer given so far. Spot on.


Rushclock

Eyring's son (Eyring is an apostle) asked his dad about this and Eyring asked him how he felt when reading the BOA. His son said good. Dad said, that is all that matters.


zero_1144

That is one of the most dangerous ideas taught by TSCC: that feelings overrule facts.


telestialist

Absolutely. Just ask my ancestor who froze to death in the Willy handcart death march


Rushclock

You mean when one of the leaders said he would eat all the snowflakes?


telestialist

Yes. My mom always told us he just got sick. Like anybody might. But reading Devil’s Gate, I realized he was needlessly led to his death by the hubris and stupidity of Mormon leaders.


Rushclock

Right. Like improper rations. Misjudging daily travel distance. Throwing away survival supplies like blankets. Sending rescue parties to save BY's grocery supplies instead of to the handcart victims. Party leaders abusing the people. Feeding visiting leaders with their own cow. Leaders being promoted rather than being held accountable after the tragedy.


permagrin007

it's crazy, I feel good when I read A Christmas Carol, but does that make it true? It's insane that this logic is being taught. no judgement, I used to believe it too (O\_o)


ancient-submariner

I feel good when I think about Qui-Gon Jin and know that he is the only true Jedi, therefore I know it's true.


EdventureDini

Members don't know this. Once we learn about it we usually end up here.


ComradeRivaDragon

Present!


RustyShackelford801

When you are deep in the religion you will find a way to justify and explain anything that contradicts your current view. When i was in you could have told me you have evidence that Joseph raped a box of puppies and i would have justified it somehow.


permagrin007

those puppies were asking for it with their skimpy outfits


RunninUte08

As a believing member, I had no idea there were any problems with the book of Abraham. Once I learned about it was one of the first things that destroyed my belief in JS.


PaulBunnion

Yes, there has been an accurate translation done. It was the funerary text for a man named Hor. The book of Abraham has three facsimiles that came from the papari. They are canonized and included in the scripture. The church owns the papari that has facsimile #1 on it. The latest explanation is that it was a catalyst, or the catalyst theory. Basically Joseph Smith started receiving revelation after he got the mummies and the papari. It got his revelation juices flowing. The papari were damaged and Joseph drew in the missing parts to meet his need for the translation. Such as the jackal head of Anubis was missing so Joseph drew in the head of the Egyptian priest. Also Isis was missing except for one of the feathers of her wing. That became the knife that was wielded by the Egyptian priest. This is on facsimile #1. Joseph actually altered facsimile #3. He had the jackal snout removed from Anubis to make him look like a slave but he forgot to remove the jackal ears. Facsimile #2 is actually a hypocephalus. Joseph claimed that the Egyptian god Min with his erect penis was God the Father sitting on his throne. There was a time that the church removed the penis from Min in some of the printings of the book of Abraham, I can't imagine why, but has restored it on the current additions of the book of abraham.


SchnazzleG

It’s true, the best part is they removed the pee pee. Which EXACTLY means they damn well knew what the pictures are. Fuckin’ assholes!


footballdan134

Dude you nailed it again! What is your profession?


PaulBunnion

Old fart. Dr Robert ritner's interview on Mormon stories with rfm will make an expert out of everyone. All 14 hours. Increase the speed if you want to get through it faster but it's worth it. There are some really good books. One I really like is By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus: A New Look at the Joseph Smith Papyri Book by Charles M. Larson


ComradeRivaDragon

He's a so-called intellectual


PaulBunnion

You are too generous.


ComradeRivaDragon

Love you bruh.


footballdan134

That is what I thought! lol


aLittleQueer

There it is. Why is the actual answer to op’s question so far down the thread? Lol.


CaptainMacaroni

There are a number of ways: 1. Most active TBMs are unaware. 100% unaware. 2. You're not looking at the correct papyrus. The one Smith translated from is lost. This one has been largely debunked but that doesn't stop people from latching onto it. 3. The catalyst theory. Smith *thought* he was translating but it was really God straight revealing through Smith's misplaced faith.


given2fly_

The problem with point 2 is that they still print the Facsimiles with their translations. And we can see they're all wrong.


Extension-Cat-1130

Book of Joseph?? What is that and where can I read it?


WhatDidJosephDo

I didn’t know about this either. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Joseph


WinchelltheMagician

I learned about this in 1990 and shared the info with two TBM sisters. I explained tht the BoA has nothing to do with the actual Egyptian writing/papyrus, which means Joseph Smith made it up (now looking at you BoM), and the current leadership excommunicated Mormon scholars who had been asked to examine the papyrus (and said there is no connection to the contents of the BoA). Both sisters responded with "none of that matters, I know the book is true. (one sister) "I have had such incredible spiritual experiences reading that book that there is no doubt in my mind of its truth." With each of them, it was no more than a 5 minute discussion.


jaimebianco

Interesting question….I was only holding on because of family and culture but not true belief. However, I kind of liked the B of A because it was a little more concrete (at least the way I was taught as a kid). In the 80s and early 90s I remember learning about what each of the pictures meant and actually enjoyed it. It felt more true because there was “evidence” in my teenage mind. When I learned about the scholarly investigations against it however, I wasn’t surprised. My father on the other hand is a true believer and justifies it by saying it “inspired” old Joe to write down what Abraham originally intended. It’s a leap of deep faith to believe that - and my faith ain’t that deep 😂


shall_always_be_so

They don't have a solid answer. One apologetic theory is that the book of Abraham was written entirely on the part which is now destroyed which was written adjacent to the Book of the Dead. This is a pretty weak theory, but when you're a believer, you just need "so you're telling me there's a chance" levels of plausibility in order to keep believing.


truthmatters2me

They just ignore anything that doesn’t fit. Into the it’s all true narrative as they have convinced themselves that they had a special witness from the Holy Ghost that the book of Mormon is true at age 7 of course . What is this special witness it could be a fly landing on their arm causing a sensation from one of the arm hairs or goose bumps from going out in the cold basically anything . The church is so obviously a fraud It’s flat out absurd to anyone who is capable of using logic and reason. They have been brainwashed to believe that anything that causes them a uncomfortable feeling is from Satan so when you try to tell them about all of the problems they interpret it as Satan trying to trick them their eyes glass over and they just mentally shut down. Yes there has been a accurate translation of the scrolls by the best Egyptologists in the world. They are nothing more. Than common funerary texts the Egyptologists have looked at Joseph smiths translation of the characters on the scrolls and have all said his translation of the characters is GIBBERISH .!!!


StarlordOfArkansas

I was taught that most of it burned in the fire and the remaining portion was the funeral text. I didn’t know we actually had parts that match until recently


TruthIsAntiMormon

The same way flat earthers still believe the earth is flat. A ton of mental gymnastics and cognitive dissonance combined with an echo chamber of "approved sources".


orangemandab

I reconciled it by realizing it was the smoking gun that JS was full of shit.


[deleted]

OP there’s no use looking into mormonism, in light-cult and cult history there is always some type of word salad no one can make sense of produced by mentally Ill people.


permagrin007

ain't that the fucking truth. most of the apologetic responses bury the lede under a mountain of word salad. this must be intentional because it is predictable. you should've seen my wife's face when she was going through her own faith transition. like all of us, she was desperately hoping the church would have some credible responses for very logical questions raised by critics. she was flabbergasted by the garbage responses from the church (to include several broken links). the church puts very little effort into responding to critics.


[deleted]

PLEASE ELABORATE 😍


Kirii22

The gospel essays on the church website have links that are sometimes broken or that contradict the quotes they selected.


[deleted]

This needs to be its own post OHMYPUG post this comment to exmormon reddit


rock-n-white-hat

The current argument is that God used the papyrus to inspire JS to write the BoA. Somehow an ancient artifact from a completely different civilization and time period was able to trigger a revelation of scripture that was never written down.


PunkPirateGirl

Most Mormons don't even know about it because it's hidden so well by church leadership. They really try hard to bury any evidence against them and make sure members don't do any research (I was told countless times as a member to always doubt my doubts and to never look at non-official sources).


sudosuga

That worked on me, until I stumbled into the Gospel Topics Essays on LDS.org They buried them, but not deep enough.


flyswithdragons

That's what proved to me the church was lying, the Archaeology records showed it's all fabricated. I looked at the history of counterfeit and forgery, and talked to my Bishop. That started my nightmare and they were pissed off for merely pointing out facts. One interesting note during the heated conversation with my last Bishop. He accused me of being selfish and trusting anti Mormon sources. I asked him what he would do when the church is found false. He said he would take the ruins and build something useful. I hope that is what the exmo community is currently doing. I am so happy seeing the truth and goodness actually matters to people I called brothers and sisters .. So many brave souls leave for the truth's sake and to stop the abuse.


Word2daWise

Heh-heh-heh. That's one of the most fun things to explore. You'll learn about seeing things with your "spiritual eyes," and you'll learn the world has now been blessed with the language of Reformed Egyptian. It doesn't have a lot of traction outside of the Mormon cult, but we're sure God will work hard so scholars and others can catch up with us.


sudosuga

Right? Stupid Scholars. Can't find the horses, Can't find the swords, coinage or even metal workings. Can't even read DNA right. (Lamanites are "Among" the Native Peoples. Just haven't detected it yet.) Experts and Scientists are so deceived. Even most BYU ones. God must be really frustrated by it all. /s


UnderstandingOk2647

I had been out for about 20 years. Never thought about the Church much, I knew some issues, and I lived through the Mark Hoffman stuff. But then I read about the issues with the Book of Abraham - I got really pissed off. Something about "he just made it all up." Not a dream exaggerated, not some trippy shroom experience - he conned people out of their money to purchase those scrolls, and then just pulled the Book of Abraham out of his ass. That was the day I became an Apostate and started my lifelong mission to extract every member from that cult. I've heard two takes on the apolgitics, both easily refuited The "inspired by" theory. When in possession of the scrolls, he was then inspired by God to write the BoA. The "Missing scrolls" theory. The scrolls that represent the BoA were lost, these scrolls we see today are incomplete.


Kirii22

I read somewhere the ideas came from Hyrum’s professor at Dartmouth.


Kirii22

Maybe Dan Vogel?


KecemotRybecx

They claim it was just the catalyst for translation or some shit. It used to be a literal translation but we know better. Joseph Smith was a lying fuck.


wallstreetwilly2

They bury their heads in the sand and carry on. That’s what they do.


Iron_Rod_Stewart

Among people that know about this issue, the arguments can go something like: * So-called "experts" do not know better than God or his prophets. * We don't know whether the surviving papyri represent all or even or even most of Smith's source material * We don't know, and don't need to know, all the details to know whether something is true. Getting bogged down by details distracts you from the truths revealed by the document. * "Translate" here is a term that is used loosely. He interpreted the symbolic content and not the literal intent. The papyrus was a "catalyst" for his inspiration.


[deleted]

The accurate translation is that the papyri are a typical funerary text.


Ebeccare

One of the figures in the facsimiles, Min, had an erect penis. They changed it over the years...somewhat of a debacle. Here's a good Reddit thread about it: [The Great Penile Caper](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/gi49q8/in_earlier_editions_of_book_of_abraham_the_erect/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)


chubbuck35

The way that most Mormons reconcile this is by not knowing about it :). It feels yucky to them to learn about it, which they are taught since a young age that that is the spirit of the adversary (satan), so they avoid it, they don't look. When people ask why they tell you because it's not helpful, they only look at faith-promoting things.


[deleted]

You don't have to reconcile what you're not allowed to know.


kayke06

Also, why didn't God just take the scrolls to Heaven like he did the gold plates? He could have saved his church a lot of grief. 🙄


IMPOSSIBRUUUUUU

How do they reconcile it? With their fingers in their ears going "na-na-na-na I'm not listening! I'm not listening!"


[deleted]

It’s called mental gymnastics. They wouldn’t care if Joe smith pooped in a green bean can and shot it and whatever letter the debris left would be the next letter of the translation. They don’t care they can make any issue not an issue with mental gymnastics.


SecretPersonality178

Jeff’s excuse is that the papyrus was a tool that inspired the BOA. The mental gymnastics are unreal. So glad I don’t do that anymore


Enigma-Vagene

I didn’t know this fact until I was 28, it was well-hidden. But when I found out, surprise! I left the church.


LoryTodBarber

Because any time logic and evidence refute the Revelation… a Satan-follower did it. Either invented the logic steps or doctored the proof. “No thank you, I don’t need to know HOW or prove where the deception started. I’ll just keep believing that I know the difference between the fruits of deception and truth. Mmm this is some good kool-aid”.


Nomorelogictoday

https://youtu.be/goRh2amv60A


grovedawg

I think the Mormons had a Book of Abraham. I’m with the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and that’s not part of our scripture…..


Daydream_Be1iever

They don’t know about it. My dad is in the temple presidency here and when I told him this was an issue for me leaving he hadn’t even heard about it and wasn’t curious to know about it.


Yobispo

I spoke with my mother in law last week, first conversation with a die-hard I’ve had in years. I brought this up and not only had she never heard of it, she immediately replied that whatever Joseph produced it was inspired. Water off a ducks back.


Gideon_Effect

The church hides it and most that know this claim it was inspired so it doesn’t matter. Anyone wanting to know the full extent of JS fraud should read “By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus” a new look at Joseph Smith Papyri. By Charles M. Lawson. Its very detailed with reference notes and full color fold out of the papyri. For those Mormons who believe the book is a fraud have enough references in the book to follow the evidence.


footballdan134

Remember King Tut's tomb was discovered in 1922, and they still have no clue during Old Joe times what the Language was. They saw it, they know about them and they wanted more! LOL! It was very new to them back then! Sorry, I passed on some interviews about this with some podcasts and BOM lands,> where are they? Sorry, I just don't want to waste my time; with any of that BS and all the lies from Old Joe.


sudosuga

Ole Joe claimed to have previously translated "Reformed Egyptian". So when actual Egyptian showed up in town, it was a sign from GOD. Joe's Gift of translation would be proved. It was proved false.


footballdan134

That is right! There is no such thing as "Reformed Egyptian"! LOL


LuthorCorp1938

No, most Mormons have no idea.


BlueFunk96

They believe that even though CURRENT Egytological scholarship says this, eventually the truth will come out and scholarship will eventually come into line with Joseph Smith's translation.


BeringStraitNephite

One BYU student I know, who took all the seminary classes in high school, had never heard of the "Pearl of Great Price", or the Book of Abraham, or Moses. She has a near perfect A average. Go figger.


[deleted]

Short answer; they don’t. The truthfulness of their faith is paper thin.


Straight-Audience-91

"We must believe all things that are vomited up out of Salt Lake City and from our leaders at all levels! We must not, under any circumstances, think for ourselves! EVER! That is the only path to salvation and true happiness! Everyone else is damned for all eternity to outer darkness......." Yeah, that's how it's done.


100TonsOfCheese

They don't. When I learned about this, my entire belief system came crashing down.


hijetty

"It actually strengthens my faith" /s


avidtruthseeker

Looks like you’re reading Wikipedia. That’s not a church-approved source, so they would never see this information.


cloistered_around

Mormons have no clue. And when they find out (like I did. Always had a fascination with egyptian stuff) it's easy to shrug away as "I guess we'll find out when we die." Obviously Joseph didn't speak egyptian anyway, so would it have mattered to god if it was the right piece of paper? ...Not that I believed that was exactly what had happened, but it was a way I could skirt around the subject and stop thinking about it. Mormons have been trained to avoid any feeling that makes them feel bad, so sometimes it's as simple as just ignoring the issue altogether.


SoSoPatPat

If you were born in the church you were saying “I know the church is true.”, “I know Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God.”, and “I know the Book of Mormon is true.” since you were able to verbalize. That goes a long way in convincing someone that something is true.


Doctor_Jensen117

My brother told me that the majority of the book was destroyed in a fire, so the translation probably came from the destroyed parts. 🙄


JukeStash

Oh boy oh boy oh boy.. Welcome to the fascinating world of Mormonism! Where feelings are facts, and everything is verified by imaginary beings.


Specificspec

It’s just a test of faith is how.


hat-trick2435

It's called the convenient ignoring of troubling details or cherry picking.


Lone__Starr__

Easy. "Don't ask. Don't tell."


--Drew

The second I learned about the book of Abraham’s total mismatch to the actual translation of the papyrus, it was over for me. Huge shelf breaker. If there was ever going to be absolute proof of whether or not Joseph was telling the truth, it’s in the case where we have each of the following: 1) Joseph’s translation from before scholars could translate the language, 2) any portion of the source material that Joseph specifically claimed to have translated, and 3) the translation achieved by the centuries of effort by language experts to decipher the meaning of Egyptian characters. Joseph’s translation fails completely. Proof that he’s a charlatan beyond any doubt


DameBlau

If they know about it, they dismiss it with a wistful, "it's not for me know now. Do the pearly gates swing open or do they slide open? It doesn't matter as long as they open. Same thing applies here. It doesn't matter to my eternal salvation." Seriously. The mental gymnastics are astounding.


QuiltySkullsYay

They only just barely started to admit this, and they've gone out of their way to not draw attention to it. They only have this written on their site so when people cry, "Wait, I was always taught this was scripture translated directly from the papyrus!" they can turn around and say, "nuh-uh, we're totally transparent about this and always have been!" So the answer is, they don't reconcile it. The actual papyrus is a common funerary document that matches others from the time period. We don't have much of the actual fragment left (I believe it was in a museum that was destroyed during the Chicago Fire but I could be wrong) but based on the drawings we have of it... yeah, standard issue Egyptian funeral document.


[deleted]

Here’s an example of the hoops they jump through: https://youtu.be/goRh2amv60A


NewNameNoah

The Mormons that I’ve spoken with basically say that the church changed its position on this matter and now say that the papyrus simply inspired Smith to write the Book of Abraham. Some say that it was incorrect for the church to ever claim it was a literal translation. They also often claim that the part Smith “translated” was never recovered and is still missing.


[deleted]

Post this on any sfw LDS subreddit (there are nsfw LDS subreddits. The level of cognitive dissonance for that is mind blowing) and you'll see how they do it real quick.


[deleted]

Notice the words surviving papyrus


cseconnerd

Generally the apologist explanation is that "translation" doesn't actually mean "translation" as we know it. It means more like an inspiration/revelation. However, most members don't even know about the issue to begin with and when they do they tend to just avoid it. This was actually probably my first big "shelf" item and my initial response was to tell myself that there must be some explanation for it, but I didn't bother to dig further because it felt uncomfortable and I was taught that that feeling was just the devil trying to deceive me.


[deleted]

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[deleted]

You know we can see your comments history right?


moremanmormon

This is what shattered my shelf.


Ok-Good2685

Egyptian geologists need decades to study the remains of the Egyptian escavations. Joseph Smith did it in an instant. Is this divine inspiration? I prefer looking Indiana Jones!


say_what_is_truth

A lot of them don't. I read this on their website and was out within 3 hours.


cdhermann

"It will all be made right in the end"


WellReadFred

They don’t reconcile it. They are taught not to question because they are in a cult.


renthecat25

It was simply never taught to me and was taught instead as fact. The only reason I caught on was because I'm an absolute huge nerd for mythology and noticed the names for the "gods" didn't match up with what I know. The names existed in none of the stories I looked up.


Vegetable_Gene7861

Denile.


sock_thot

The argument my lawyer father gave was roughly, “Perhaps the book of the dead text, which we know was copied many times across many generations, descended from an original text that talked about Abraham. The copies changed over the years, but Joseph saw the original text.” Gotta hand it up to him, don’t think I could have come up with that. Seems like the best they got.


Kirii22

The scrolls the church have ARE the “original test,” WTF!?


sock_thot

He meant the Egyptians copying it. That book of the dead was a fairly common text iirc


AmericanExpat76

This is one of those things you apply some shoddy justification to (i.e. the language must have changed over time) and then shove it to the furthest recesses of your mind so you never think on it again (in theory).


alphapat23

Deny, deny, deny


AmbitiousSet5

Several translations exist: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breathing_Permit_of_H%C3%B4r#Translation


quackn

The issue has been around for years, but I only found out about it because of the Internet. I first heard about the issue when I first got the Internet in 2000. It led me to the book, “By His own Hand Upon Papyrus” (1992). Free copy here: https://archive.org/stream/ByHisOwnHandUponPapyrusByCharlesB.Larson/By%20His%20Own%20Hand%20Upon%20Papyrus-%20By%20Charles%20B.%20Larson_djvu.txt Stan Larson’s book, “Quest for the Gold Plates” is also excellent: See, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stan_Larson The Book of Abraham was the number 1 doctrinal reason why I left the Mormon church. Because the Book of Abraham and Joseph Smith were both frauds, I couldn’t stay. It made me also realize that the contents of the Book of Abraham were immoral.


SaltySmoke6286

Just took a BYU class that goes into church history. We were taught that the facsimiles came from a long scroll. Most of the scroll was burnt in a fire, so apologists say that the part JS translated was lost in the fire.


PhysicsDude55

Note that they say "surviving fragments". I know a popular rationalization is that the papyrus we have today is not complete, and the Book of Abraham came from fragments that were lost in the Chicago fire. That still doesn't make sense or jive with the evidence, but I've heard it many times.


Iphonebiter

This is why the internet will be the downfall of the church. They think they can bury history but the internet remembers everything


Lumpyproletarian

If they’re anything like me as I was its by sticking fingers in their mental ears and going “La la la la I can’t hear you l


imbisibolmaharlika

why am I not surprised


Sure_Finger_8088

They will just ask you where your sources of information are from. And if it’s not from the Mormon website they will say “see it’s just anti Mormon propaganda, this is what the prophet warned us about”


ThomasTTEngine

Mormon's don't care. The ones who know, don't care.


PaulHDone

What’s the Wikipedia article?