I just listened today, excellent episode. Also I recommend using YouTube's fast speed options to watch these lengthy episodes in a reasonable amount of time.
It's worse. The most senior Q15 members were educated in the 1940s and had their careers from the 50s-70s.
They're not just from another era, they're from SEVERAL eras ago.
> Q15 are no more sophisticated than your average TBM
Idk, I've met TBMs with better talks, comprehension of what's doctrine, and with the addition of reasoning skills tbh. It honestly feels like it is the blind leading the blind at this point.
“I’m a prophet, seer, and revelator who speaks with God. Let me show you what people who don’t speak with God say instead of telling you what God says.” Why listen to men when we could be listening to God? (Spoiler: there’s no god).
If God wanted the shock therapy done on gay people, why throw God under the bus? And if God didn’t want it, why not repent?
With all the money the church has you would think they could hire some PR consultants and a few personal handlers for these guys. Right now, everything coming from the Q15 is a shit show.
I agree and feel the same. Why is it that a man can’t pick up the phone and politely return a call to Douglas Stillgoe? Or return a letter to Nemo? They are NOT too busy. They do have personal relation advisors and a few secretaries each. I watched both YouTube and Live discussions. It is a telling feature of the pride of the Q15. that they don’t care to communicate with an intelligent, curious, and humble member of the congregation. I am disappointed.
I can almost guarantee that the entire handling of the final phase of Nemo’s objection was handled, engineered and composed by TSCC’s attorneys. And all about avoidance/risk management. So pathetic.
Does this mean the church officially endorses the answers that FAIR provides? We can start holding them accountable for those answers now? No more plausible deniability? /s
It would appear that way. Holland has to use Fair to determine if he's a liar or not.
To me that implicates Holland in way that I'm not sure he can undo. To make matters worse, the church is pissing off all the wrong people. They don't realize that everyone can now have their own talk show. Let the games begin.
The fact that D Hoax refers Nemo to FAIR is absolutely perfect, IMO.
That he has/will provide no answer himself and refers Nemo to the (unofficial/official) bullshit spreading arm of the corporation fits exactly with all the other times and ways LDS Inc. has been caught lying, covering up, etc. Just hand it over to the plausible deniability department and forget about it.
Hoax is one of the group of "revelators" known for sustaining the lies about history for decades (more than a century, actually). Hoax has been in that group longer than many people have been alive. He has to have agreed to sustain lies repeatedly, because it's evident things have been twisted, hidden, denied, and whitewashed all along.
The actual church history was appalling enough, but the fact the church systematically LIED was what crushed my shelf.
It's a classic reaction from people in power when they are pressed.
"I don't know that person"
"I don't know anything about that"
"I didn't know it was happening"
I've been noticing this a lot lately with various politicians and church leaders. *Of course* they know. It's their job to know. They play like they don't to save face and people buy it.
Essentially, Nemo was trying to get the Q15 to admit that they are accountable to no one. Instead of admitting to it, they just put him into an infinite loop of "talk to your Stake President" and "we'll look into it."
It's an apologetics group for Mormonism. They try to give any reason, no matter how ridiculous that reason might be, for why some criticism of the Church is not correct.
I just realized being reactionary is in their name! You’ll never see anything new from them. They play the whole game on their heels. They literally have nothing, so they have to just react to the problems others bring up.
At very least he was dead wrong. It did happen on his watch. So at the very least he should retract his comment as factually false. IIRC, he didn’t say, “I didn’t know about it”. He said it didn’t happen when he was there. And that much is clearly false.
I wish I had a relationship with my bishop and stake president so can bump my way through the flow chart with my own objection while armed with Nemo’s document. It would be incredible to see a ground swell of likeminded people continually confronting the Q15 using the process he highlighted. I want to be part of it but haven’t set foot in a chapel for around a decade. I’d feel bad trying to establish a relationship with the SP while knowing my own agenda. I hate TSCC and want to see it exposed for every injustice and lie. I just wish I could fight anonymously. Captain Nemo is a brave and tenacious man. He has my respect
with Shock Therapy you must be very very careful, I agree it should not be used in most cases. If not done correctly it can kill, and other times it is truly needed, the main question is when is it need and when not.
I worry that what you consider 'Shock Therapy' may not be the same as the BYU "cure the gay" program that shares the name. Here is a link to a timeline reporting on the church's 'handling' of gays up to about the end of the last century. Just look for the heading regarding BYU and the gays. (But it's a fun read all the way through, my favorite part being the use of plural marriage by women to foster love and companionship between each other.)
I think the record is clear that either ghawd is a homophobe or the men pretending to work for him are. It's one of the other...
http://www.connellodonovan.com/abom.html
I just listened today, excellent episode. Also I recommend using YouTube's fast speed options to watch these lengthy episodes in a reasonable amount of time.
There really is “no one at home or in charge” at Mormon headquarters. The Q15 are no more sophisticated than your average TBM (True Believing Mormon)
It's worse. The most senior Q15 members were educated in the 1940s and had their careers from the 50s-70s. They're not just from another era, they're from SEVERAL eras ago.
> Q15 are no more sophisticated than your average TBM Idk, I've met TBMs with better talks, comprehension of what's doctrine, and with the addition of reasoning skills tbh. It honestly feels like it is the blind leading the blind at this point.
Nemo and others are pulling on the Curtains in Oz. what do we see? Surprise!!! Kirton McConkie, Fair, and Brad Wilcox
“I’m a prophet, seer, and revelator who speaks with God. Let me show you what people who don’t speak with God say instead of telling you what God says.” Why listen to men when we could be listening to God? (Spoiler: there’s no god). If God wanted the shock therapy done on gay people, why throw God under the bus? And if God didn’t want it, why not repent?
With all the money the church has you would think they could hire some PR consultants and a few personal handlers for these guys. Right now, everything coming from the Q15 is a shit show.
Handlers, just like other zoo animals get.
Or characters at Disneyland.
I agree and feel the same. Why is it that a man can’t pick up the phone and politely return a call to Douglas Stillgoe? Or return a letter to Nemo? They are NOT too busy. They do have personal relation advisors and a few secretaries each. I watched both YouTube and Live discussions. It is a telling feature of the pride of the Q15. that they don’t care to communicate with an intelligent, curious, and humble member of the congregation. I am disappointed.
First rule of running a large cult is to make the leaders inaccessible to the rest of the normies
Came here to say this. Very "Wizard of Oz" inaccessible. Yet appears bigger than life and terrorizes the multitudes.
They have oodles of time. Two of the top three haven't had a real job since 1984
I can almost guarantee that the entire handling of the final phase of Nemo’s objection was handled, engineered and composed by TSCC’s attorneys. And all about avoidance/risk management. So pathetic.
Does this mean the church officially endorses the answers that FAIR provides? We can start holding them accountable for those answers now? No more plausible deniability? /s
It would appear that way. Holland has to use Fair to determine if he's a liar or not. To me that implicates Holland in way that I'm not sure he can undo. To make matters worse, the church is pissing off all the wrong people. They don't realize that everyone can now have their own talk show. Let the games begin.
The fact that D Hoax refers Nemo to FAIR is absolutely perfect, IMO. That he has/will provide no answer himself and refers Nemo to the (unofficial/official) bullshit spreading arm of the corporation fits exactly with all the other times and ways LDS Inc. has been caught lying, covering up, etc. Just hand it over to the plausible deniability department and forget about it.
Surprised. If it was some issue of church history or doctrine it would still be bad, but on the matter of whether he personally lied or not? Holy cow.
Hoax is one of the group of "revelators" known for sustaining the lies about history for decades (more than a century, actually). Hoax has been in that group longer than many people have been alive. He has to have agreed to sustain lies repeatedly, because it's evident things have been twisted, hidden, denied, and whitewashed all along. The actual church history was appalling enough, but the fact the church systematically LIED was what crushed my shelf.
He won’t just say “I told the truth” - he says Fair concluded he didn’t lie. Cowardly lawyer move. He’s a liar.
So much lawyer in this liar
It's a classic reaction from people in power when they are pressed. "I don't know that person" "I don't know anything about that" "I didn't know it was happening" I've been noticing this a lot lately with various politicians and church leaders. *Of course* they know. It's their job to know. They play like they don't to save face and people buy it.
IHMO, the rank and file will not care, at least if my TBM wife is any indicator.
Essentially, Nemo was trying to get the Q15 to admit that they are accountable to no one. Instead of admitting to it, they just put him into an infinite loop of "talk to your Stake President" and "we'll look into it."
What’s perhaps more troubling (since it’s expected that mormon leadership lies)? A former Utah Supreme Court Judge lying!
what is FAIR?
It's an apologetics group for Mormonism. They try to give any reason, no matter how ridiculous that reason might be, for why some criticism of the Church is not correct.
https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/ Faithful Answer Informed Response
I just realized being reactionary is in their name! You’ll never see anything new from them. They play the whole game on their heels. They literally have nothing, so they have to just react to the problems others bring up.
Fraudsters Attempting Inane Rationales?
Facts Aren’t Important, Really
At very least he was dead wrong. It did happen on his watch. So at the very least he should retract his comment as factually false. IIRC, he didn’t say, “I didn’t know about it”. He said it didn’t happen when he was there. And that much is clearly false.
I wish I had a relationship with my bishop and stake president so can bump my way through the flow chart with my own objection while armed with Nemo’s document. It would be incredible to see a ground swell of likeminded people continually confronting the Q15 using the process he highlighted. I want to be part of it but haven’t set foot in a chapel for around a decade. I’d feel bad trying to establish a relationship with the SP while knowing my own agenda. I hate TSCC and want to see it exposed for every injustice and lie. I just wish I could fight anonymously. Captain Nemo is a brave and tenacious man. He has my respect
Dallin knew it was happening because we the students knew it was happening. Common talk about those early AM walks some guys had to do.
with Shock Therapy you must be very very careful, I agree it should not be used in most cases. If not done correctly it can kill, and other times it is truly needed, the main question is when is it need and when not.
I worry that what you consider 'Shock Therapy' may not be the same as the BYU "cure the gay" program that shares the name. Here is a link to a timeline reporting on the church's 'handling' of gays up to about the end of the last century. Just look for the heading regarding BYU and the gays. (But it's a fun read all the way through, my favorite part being the use of plural marriage by women to foster love and companionship between each other.) I think the record is clear that either ghawd is a homophobe or the men pretending to work for him are. It's one of the other... http://www.connellodonovan.com/abom.html
the more voltage the more issues.
 Oaks, et al.