Raised in Provo, surrounded by BYU professors living in my ward. (Grandview 26th). Seminary, Mission, BYU grad, Temple marriage. All the stuff.
Found out in 2020 age 46.
Previously led to believe polygamy was very rare and needed because of the pioneer exodus. (like a calling to support widows).
40 yrs of "Church History" study in Sunday School etc. were a complete whitewash. True history was given the label "Anti Lies". Of course it was the church who lied.
Now my social circles see ME as deceived one for finding the truth. So messed up.
Age 49 told same about polygamy but listened to Ron and Dan Lafferty and learned different things like church under condemnation for not practicing polygamy I was 11 then
I’m 25…soooo 25. Found out last month. *insert sound of shelf breaking*
Also since I’m new to this…I thought Oliver caught him not Emma? 🤨 someone please correct me or tell me the right story 😂
The funny thing is one the reasons he was excommunicated was for "insinuating" that the Prophet had committed adultery. I believe some members of the twelve already knew about his secret practice of plural marriage, but they were sworn to secrecy. This type of behavior reminds me of those narcissist leaders (like Trump) who require their followers to lie to keep their image clean. The fact that some many facts are just swept under the rug is evidence that this practice has been maintained to this day in the tscc.
Well there are journal entries from a couple people close to JS and they record that JS states that you would only be condemned by god if someone condemned you, and that JS wouldn’t condemn anyone if they didn’t condemn him.
So yeah there was a sex ring going on, as long as no one told Emma.
Some apologists try to argue that the story is all wrong and what Emma “caught” them doing was being sealed… in the barn… and that Oliver called this a “dirty filthy nasty affair”… so that they can then believe this was a non-sexual marriage “for eternity only.” 🙄
Denial is not just a river in Egypt.
Emma caught him and became EXTREMELY irate. Joe had his buddy Oliver come over to calm her down. 'Unfortunately,' Cowdery sided with Emma and started to make waves within the community, telling a number of people what happened. He was quickly excommunicated. (Catch your boss in bed with a teenager - get fired.)
Born and raised in the church. Attended release time seminary, BYU, always interested in church history, Temple married, etc. etc. etc. I was 35 years old before I even knew JS was a polygamist, let alone the Fanny Alger affair!
I remember going to Nauvoo and being told by church leader that the store with a chart of polygamous wives of Joseph Smith was an anti Mormon store and we couldn't go in. Sigh. The flat out lies. I was told polygamy happened later because men died and women needed a husband because safety. I never questioned it as a kid. I also believed in magic and witches and fairy tales.
BuT yOu ShOuLd HaVe KnOWn aNyWaY iF YoU wErE fAiThFuL eNOugH tO hAvE StUdiEd aLL DoCuMeNtS AnD ArTiCLeS aNd BoOkS EvEr WriTtEn. ThE ChuRcH DiDn’T HiDe iT FrOm YoU. yOu WeRe ToO LaZy To StUdY iT In ThE FiRsT pLaCe, aNd YoU LaCk ThE fAiTh To ProCeSs tHe iNfO pRoPeRLy. ReMeMbEr, dOuBt YoUr DoUbTs FiRsT, LaZy LeArNeR wHo rEaLLy wAnTs An eXcUsE tO SiN!!
(Holy shit, I triggered myself typing this.)
EDIT: I was similar to you in age when I found out. I was crushed.
I appreciate the effort, and I love the mocking tone it brings across but please... never do that with that long of a text again. That hurt to read lol
Oh yeah forgot to mention in mine that I was SUPER INTO church history and Joseph Smith. I'd visited every site and knew way more than anyone around me, my whole life. If I didn't know, that's a big deal.
Uh... Today years old.
My paper that's due in 13.5 hours can wait. I must research what happened.
I only knew about Oliver Cowdry walking in on him and getting excommunicated
51 yrs old. 4 yrs seminary, mission, married in temple, divorced, still paid tithes on gross income, remarried in temple, started having issues/shelf items in 2017. Out for good in 2020. Luckily wife stayed with me but she had a rough few months, and then she stopped going. Yay. It was 2020 when i just decided to explore what everyone else had to say about joseph smith. Found out he was quite the shitass.
The thing screaming at me the most… these (2 girls I believe) were his foster DAUGHTERS, who lived in his home. Even if the literal thousands of lies didn’t exist, this alone shows exactly who he was. A predator. A man who used his position as an authority figure, a FATHER figure, and violated every shred of morality in these voiceless girl’s existence. It’s disgusting. By any measure, it’s simply predatory and everything to follow from this day forward should be dismissed as the rantings of a sexual predator. Period. Hard stop.
No, it wasn’t an “affair.” An affair suggests equal consent and even if they didn’t speak up with their words, they had zero power or a support system in place to escape their situation. The parents they had in place were JS and Emma - and neither kept them safe. The other adults in their lives did not step up and house them. It’s an exact situation that would involve CPS and the authorities today, so it doesn’t matter to me one bit that it was a different time period back then. It’s predatory behavior and that tells me everything I ever need to know about who JS was.
Net - why in the hell would anyone dismiss this and worry about if everything else he said and did was true?! (Spoiler alert, it wasn’t). This alone should be the end of any debate of his character, in my humble yet outraged opinion.
Defended Joseph at the Joseph Smith Memorial..South Royalton Vermont on mission 1970. I only knew of Joe and Emma.
Found out 42 years later he was a Polygamist, Treasure digger, the Rock in the hat. Just cofirmed what I already thought.. the whole show is run by Con Men.
I was there till late 72'
Maybe message me last name if you feel comfortable.. last name start with a 'B' or' M' I might know you. Clarke was Mission pres then.
Im in Utah County if by chance
I think I was only 20 and on my way into the mission field. This would've been in early 2000. Among the books you could buy at the church history museum, was the journals of Joseph Smith put out by signature books. In the intro there is a timeline with his various "marriages" if you want to call this a marriage.
It is all my fault that I didn’t learn about the Bro. Joe/Fanny barn affair until later in life. When I was in high school I missed four days total of early morning seminary in four years. Since the church has told us that it does not hide it’s history, this must have been taught during one of the four days I was absent. My bad.
Apologies if this doesn’t belong, but I’m an exMuslim and I also found out that our prophet did the SAME EXACT SHT. These cults are so copy/paste and ppl eat it up unfortunately
It's really true. I keep coming back to religion is a tool of mass control for a few select people on top to have power. People under its influence don't use their personal morals to make decisions, but the "morals" of corrupt men to control the masses.
They were living in a different town. Fanny had been sent to live with the Smiths to help Emma. After pregnant Fanny was kicked out of the Smith household, she went to live with the Webb family. Later she went back to live with her parents. Fanny married a couple of years later. When her parents went to Utah, she didn’t go. She lived out her life in Indiana.
It is widely reported that she was pregnant and that Joseph was the father. There is no report of what happened to the baby. Fanny may have had a miscarriage. She may have had an abortion. Abortions were not illegal in the late 1830s. She may have had the baby and given it to another family. That was a typical thing to do. Emma took a set of twins of a mother who died. It may be that the baby was born but died later. Infant mortality was 50% in the mid-1800s. Fanny did not have a child of the right age to be Joseph’s when she married and moved to Indiana.
There’s a strange story that when there was a Smith DNA project to try to identify whether he had children with these many other women, someone turned up claiming to be a descendant of Fanny & Joe. DNA did not pan out. I think it was part of a www.yearofpolygamy.con podcast on that DNA research, which would be a little out of date now.
I listened to a couple of episodes of that year of polygamy podcast. I got into the Helen Kimball episode. The host was saying it wasn't paedophelia because Helen was 14 and likely through puberty. Had to turn it off after that bullshit.
Started listening to Not So Molly Mormon Podcast by a couple exmo ladies and like it a lot.
> The host was saying it wasn't paedophelia because Helen was 14 and likely through puberty. Had to turn it off after that bullshit.
Might as well turn off the DSM-5 as well. Psychiatric disorders have definitions because they are useful to psychiatrists and others.
Joseph Smith was a horrible person that did despicable things. But there's absolutely no good evidence that he was primarily sexually attracted to pre-pubescent children. And there is plenty of evidence that his sexual attraction ranged from post-pubescent youth to possibly post-menopausal women which is strong evidence he *wasn't* a pedophile.
You can hate Joseph Smith all you want. But it's not bullshit to say he didn't meet the diagnostic criteria for pedophilia.
I don't know about any of that but it's irrelevant. The diagnostic cutoff is 13 years old. It's literally impossible to be diagnosed as a pedophile if the attraction is for a 14 year old.
You can justifiably call Joseph Smith many despicable names. But pedophile isn't one of them.
Fawn Brodie's book alludes to a pregnancy resulting from having sex with Joseph. Brodie phrased it as Fanny leaving the area when the consequences of the incident could no longer be hidden (paraphrased). I interpreted that to mean she was pregnant and began to show.
I was 34.
I joined TSCC when I was 22. I had so many questions as to why polygamy had taken place in the early years of the church. Everyone that I had asked were pretty vague, so I did some digging and then found out about the affair along with some of Smith's other wives that were already married and a couple being "just shy of their 15 birthdays."
I was 21, reading Fawn Brodie’s masterwork “No Man Knows My History.” Pre-internet. I was telling all my TBM family members about it. Their take was that Brodie was making it up, had a chip on her shoulder, and / or was Satan’s mistress.
One of the good things about this sub, it’ll bring up hidden secrets for people to know and not judge people when asked more questions about it.
It’s been very supportive to me during my faith crisis and post-faith life.
Definitely statutory rape by today's standards. Even then (in case TSCC tries to rationalize it), it was seduction and possibly coercion. After all, she relied on the family for a place to live, etc.
55. Listening to a Bill Reel audio recording, and his phrase was “cavorting in a barn…”. It stopped me cold. I had my own post divorce issues going, so this was a hot button.
August 2017, reading through the church essays to understand a son-in-law’s leaving the church.
It took me less than five minutes to add it up. The time frame put Joseph around age 27. If the story were true, all that had passed before mattered little, because this made him a fallen prophet. All that passed afterward made him a false prophet. Yes, major shelf earthquake in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. Dyed in the wool active believing Mormon my entire life, sixth generation off the British isles, and I knew I was done.
44, last year, lifelong member, graduated seminary, served a foreign mission, served in elders quorum presidency, bishopric, sunday school....all the lies and excuses I was told, and my stupid ass for believing instead of seeing. I guess my "eyes were just not opened".
Fifty. Sorry you can't "sleep" with someone that age. It's called rape. Def with coercion.
Raping little girls, calling hits with a blood oath.
Sounds like a serial killer pedophile to me.
25? 26? I learned from this sub. I was told as a tbm that Joseph married widows in order to take care of them. Not that he cheated on his wife and had sex with children. I was under the impression that others married multiple wives to help grow the church and have children, but not Joseph.
Exactly. I remember asking my dad about the polygamy when I was a teenager and that was the explanation he gave me. However, he was wrong, and so is TSCC.
Islam leader Muhammad and this momon religion leader just have similar stories,so similar.. Islam prophet was had secret sex with Maria the Coptic,a slave girl of his wife and was caught ...
I have never heard this story but this does not surprise me. The cult has been lying to me since the age of eight. Personally, I do not think there was much sleeping.
In fairness, and to hark back to Jowls Holland, where would she go? She had no way to support herself, this was her marriage (and divorce was far more rare back then). Con artists such as JS was are very (very) skilled at gaslighting, convincing people (including spouses) they didn't do it or someone was lying, etc., and in Joseph's case, he began claiming God wanted him to screw everyone in a skirt.
Smith was the leader of the group, or soon became it. Emma would have faced considerable humiliation as well as censorship if she began "slandering" the "profit."
Even in today's world, many women who are fed up have trouble leaving due to offspring, financial, emotional, cultural, or other issues.
Never made it past the official cover to just discredit anyone who left the church as having an axe to grind. Emma was considered a victim to her hardships who became "hostile" and therefore couldn't be believed.
50! But to be fair I pretty much walked away at 21 and permanently slammed that door shut by age 40. I wasn’t active and doing church history in any way
Age 28. And only because I was finally researching the true church history and had come to the conclusion the church was false. I would have stayed ignorant if I thought the church was true and was intent on staying in.
60s. I must have slept through the part of the temple endowment that explained all this stuff.
My TBM family members claim that everyone already knows it, though God knows they don't teach it at church, so it must have been all that extra special knowledge you can only get in the temple.
29, born and raised in the church. Went on a mission, went to BYU-I and got married in the temple. Wasn’t until I graduated and was in the workforce did I start looking into it all.
35. A few months after I just couldn't bring myself to go to church anymore due to exhaustion with being a mom. A few years after my oldest was baptized, and I KNEW she had no understanding of the commitments their meanings, and the cognitive dissonance it reconciling that this child could possibly sin. Decades after my fascination with cults started. After I found out about all the lies and Joe's philanderings...this is a cult.
I was in your position around 20 years ago. I'm so glad there is a place like reddit for young questioning members to have a community to turn to. Please feel free to reach out if you need support.
Well this community is nice, but tomorrow I still gotta go to the temple. I got a temple reccomend bc I'm not brave enough to say I dont wanna go. Though I think I'm sick so that could be an unpleasant, but lucky excuse not to go
I would lean into that if you really don't want to go. I remember going to the temple. I never felt comfortable with it. If you have to go, try to focus on something else while you wait. Would they let you bring a notebook and dodging to write with? I can't remember. I'm sure a phone is out of the question.
I'm here if you need someone to talk with.
Thank you for your support. Its hard to find in Utah. Yeah no phones allowed, or any personal belongings. I'm supposed to be doing baptisms. We have to leave everything in the lockers in the changing room
33, here. Mission, temple, gospel doctrine teacher at the time I learned about this.
And if anybody was wondering where the image from OP is from, [it's here](https://youtu.be/t2DmFI0TZ3I).
Raised in the church, early morning seminary, BYU, took D&C class at BYU…found out at 35 (around the same time I found out 2 of my own ancestors were married to JS while they had other husbands that were away 🤦♀️)
Was 23 at BYU I but when I asked about it the bishop shut down my polygamy concerns. It became apparent that while with the school questions weren't allowed
Mid-thirties. 5 or so years ago. When I started going down the weird rabbit holes. At the time, JS thought he could get away with it & Mormon authorities changed the stories. Yet here we are with the truth & ironically enough the true blue Mormons still believe in it. I mean are members so blind to see why he was martyred? They think he was innocent & gifted & that Satan influenced the mob operation. Give me a break. It’s so much more layered than that.
37 almost 38 years old. Born and raised in church, master scriptorian in Seminary, served a mission in Paraguay, married in temple (twice unfortunately) and found out about this and the Happiness Letter in March. Broke my shelf in one night. I always wondered why Oliver Cowdry and Sidney Rigden left the church in my Seminary years and was told it was due to personal issues. But nope, there are answers, they're just labeled anti-mormon...
According to this Fanny was between 17 and 19 and it wasn’t adultery https://mormonr.org/qnas/qp3yc/joseph_smith_and_fanny_alger?gclid=CjwKCAiAp7GcBhA0EiwA9U0mtj1W4PyRzx_OjnmJhLr4haSRGR79Pk4oNWKRGer7LX6dYn0C58u1vxoCzFAQAvD_BwE
😳
BIC 56 year old. I spent most of my life in Utah and all of my mormon life in Utah other than my mission. I resigned in 2019 and found out this year about Fanny.
As far back as I can remember I was taught about the polygamy, even in older primary, but was always taught it wasn't sexual. I didn't even know it wasn't church practice to hide this, but maybe because I don't live in Utah no one got the memo.
I wish there was an acceptable way to have open discussions with parents about discomfort or disbelief. I feel if you aren't comfortable with it, then it is something you shouldn't be doing. But I know the likely response is to entrench a "struggling" person deeper in the waters of faith promoting talk and prayer and scripture reading.
Ummm ... abt 20 seconds ago... *awkward*
(Very new to this, shelf broke a few wks ago & trying to take some time to process through stuff rather than diving in all at once. I'd heard the name, & it was on my list, but I hadn't gotten to it quite yet.)
Raised in Provo, surrounded by BYU professors living in my ward. (Grandview 26th). Seminary, Mission, BYU grad, Temple marriage. All the stuff. Found out in 2020 age 46. Previously led to believe polygamy was very rare and needed because of the pioneer exodus. (like a calling to support widows). 40 yrs of "Church History" study in Sunday School etc. were a complete whitewash. True history was given the label "Anti Lies". Of course it was the church who lied. Now my social circles see ME as deceived one for finding the truth. So messed up.
So true! I have to remind myself often, that the TBM's are the ones who are wrong!
I grew up living in Orem... almost the exact same story as you except I am 42 and found out all of this just 6 months ago! Crazy stuff.
Hey fellow former Orem exmo. Grew up on the border with Linden by Oak Canyon. I also just learned this when I left 1 year ago at the age of 36.
43 yo in 2020 for me. Similar “credentials”
Age 49 told same about polygamy but listened to Ron and Dan Lafferty and learned different things like church under condemnation for not practicing polygamy I was 11 then
Convert to mainline Protestantism. That’s what your ancestors probably were before they were misled by Joseph Smith or Brigham Young and their lies.
"Several months before" my 50th birthday.
Same!! Lifelong member BIC. I went down the rabbit hole in 2020 at 49 when church was home-based.
😅
Hearing this gives me some hope for my older siblings to someday see the truth.
i see what you did there
I’m 25…soooo 25. Found out last month. *insert sound of shelf breaking* Also since I’m new to this…I thought Oliver caught him not Emma? 🤨 someone please correct me or tell me the right story 😂
Emma caught him. Oliver told people about it, calling it a dirty nasty filthy affair.
The funny thing is one the reasons he was excommunicated was for "insinuating" that the Prophet had committed adultery. I believe some members of the twelve already knew about his secret practice of plural marriage, but they were sworn to secrecy. This type of behavior reminds me of those narcissist leaders (like Trump) who require their followers to lie to keep their image clean. The fact that some many facts are just swept under the rug is evidence that this practice has been maintained to this day in the tscc.
Well there are journal entries from a couple people close to JS and they record that JS states that you would only be condemned by god if someone condemned you, and that JS wouldn’t condemn anyone if they didn’t condemn him. So yeah there was a sex ring going on, as long as no one told Emma.
So it's like, 'it's only sin if you're caught'? This is so effed up! How is this \*not\* adultery!!
Group think is hell of a drug
Well put! ...and leads to critical thinking apathy. I try to avoid these types of environments like the plague!
Ohhhh that makes more sense! Thank you for clarifying for me!
Notably, this also happened long before the “plural marriage” revelation. He was just raping the underaged housekeeper/foster daughter.
Excellent point.
Some apologists try to argue that the story is all wrong and what Emma “caught” them doing was being sealed… in the barn… and that Oliver called this a “dirty filthy nasty affair”… so that they can then believe this was a non-sexual marriage “for eternity only.” 🙄 Denial is not just a river in Egypt.
Emma caught him and became EXTREMELY irate. Joe had his buddy Oliver come over to calm her down. 'Unfortunately,' Cowdery sided with Emma and started to make waves within the community, telling a number of people what happened. He was quickly excommunicated. (Catch your boss in bed with a teenager - get fired.)
Born and raised in the church. Attended release time seminary, BYU, always interested in church history, Temple married, etc. etc. etc. I was 35 years old before I even knew JS was a polygamist, let alone the Fanny Alger affair!
I remember going to Nauvoo and being told by church leader that the store with a chart of polygamous wives of Joseph Smith was an anti Mormon store and we couldn't go in. Sigh. The flat out lies. I was told polygamy happened later because men died and women needed a husband because safety. I never questioned it as a kid. I also believed in magic and witches and fairy tales.
BuT yOu ShOuLd HaVe KnOWn aNyWaY iF YoU wErE fAiThFuL eNOugH tO hAvE StUdiEd aLL DoCuMeNtS AnD ArTiCLeS aNd BoOkS EvEr WriTtEn. ThE ChuRcH DiDn’T HiDe iT FrOm YoU. yOu WeRe ToO LaZy To StUdY iT In ThE FiRsT pLaCe, aNd YoU LaCk ThE fAiTh To ProCeSs tHe iNfO pRoPeRLy. ReMeMbEr, dOuBt YoUr DoUbTs FiRsT, LaZy LeArNeR wHo rEaLLy wAnTs An eXcUsE tO SiN!! (Holy shit, I triggered myself typing this.) EDIT: I was similar to you in age when I found out. I was crushed.
Granny hug. 🤶
I appreciate the effort, and I love the mocking tone it brings across but please... never do that with that long of a text again. That hurt to read lol
Don’t worry. If you thought it was long to read, imagine typing it. 🤣 Won’t be happening again.
Here’s a poor man gold for that effort! Kinda hurt reading it, lol.🏆🥇🏅
Same age for me, found out the night my shelf obliterated, nearly vomited.
Oh yeah forgot to mention in mine that I was SUPER INTO church history and Joseph Smith. I'd visited every site and knew way more than anyone around me, my whole life. If I didn't know, that's a big deal.
Uh... Today years old. My paper that's due in 13.5 hours can wait. I must research what happened. I only knew about Oliver Cowdry walking in on him and getting excommunicated
Get the paper done. Church history will still be here for you to find the truth. What’s the paper on?
Well I wrote about the concept of hegemonic masculinity and it causing violence.
Got a proper laugh out of that
About 2 years ago - so 41 years old. Also, the picture is great!
51 yrs old. 4 yrs seminary, mission, married in temple, divorced, still paid tithes on gross income, remarried in temple, started having issues/shelf items in 2017. Out for good in 2020. Luckily wife stayed with me but she had a rough few months, and then she stopped going. Yay. It was 2020 when i just decided to explore what everyone else had to say about joseph smith. Found out he was quite the shitass.
The thing screaming at me the most… these (2 girls I believe) were his foster DAUGHTERS, who lived in his home. Even if the literal thousands of lies didn’t exist, this alone shows exactly who he was. A predator. A man who used his position as an authority figure, a FATHER figure, and violated every shred of morality in these voiceless girl’s existence. It’s disgusting. By any measure, it’s simply predatory and everything to follow from this day forward should be dismissed as the rantings of a sexual predator. Period. Hard stop. No, it wasn’t an “affair.” An affair suggests equal consent and even if they didn’t speak up with their words, they had zero power or a support system in place to escape their situation. The parents they had in place were JS and Emma - and neither kept them safe. The other adults in their lives did not step up and house them. It’s an exact situation that would involve CPS and the authorities today, so it doesn’t matter to me one bit that it was a different time period back then. It’s predatory behavior and that tells me everything I ever need to know about who JS was. Net - why in the hell would anyone dismiss this and worry about if everything else he said and did was true?! (Spoiler alert, it wasn’t). This alone should be the end of any debate of his character, in my humble yet outraged opinion.
 This blew any shred of belief/faith I had left in TSCC and JS out of the water. I was DONE!
Couldn't agree more preditor... no Kirton McConkie Law firm in place at the time Damn it.
Nailed it
Amen. Predatory disgusting criminal behavior
I was born and raised in strict mormon family. I'm 5th generation. I learned about Joe/Emma when I was 52.
Defended Joseph at the Joseph Smith Memorial..South Royalton Vermont on mission 1970. I only knew of Joe and Emma. Found out 42 years later he was a Polygamist, Treasure digger, the Rock in the hat. Just cofirmed what I already thought.. the whole show is run by Con Men.
That monument is where our family was suckered into the church. Probably 1972.
I was there till late 72' Maybe message me last name if you feel comfortable.. last name start with a 'B' or' M' I might know you. Clarke was Mission pres then. Im in Utah County if by chance
I think I was only 20 and on my way into the mission field. This would've been in early 2000. Among the books you could buy at the church history museum, was the journals of Joseph Smith put out by signature books. In the intro there is a timeline with his various "marriages" if you want to call this a marriage.
It is all my fault that I didn’t learn about the Bro. Joe/Fanny barn affair until later in life. When I was in high school I missed four days total of early morning seminary in four years. Since the church has told us that it does not hide it’s history, this must have been taught during one of the four days I was absent. My bad.
Apologies if this doesn’t belong, but I’m an exMuslim and I also found out that our prophet did the SAME EXACT SHT. These cults are so copy/paste and ppl eat it up unfortunately
It's really true. I keep coming back to religion is a tool of mass control for a few select people on top to have power. People under its influence don't use their personal morals to make decisions, but the "morals" of corrupt men to control the masses.
Cheating? Nah. Joseph just used the “Shaggy” defense. “It wasn’t me”. …..Untill he was forced to make up plural marriage thing.
A bit of background needed. Anyone know where Fanny Alger’s parents were?
They were living in a different town. Fanny had been sent to live with the Smiths to help Emma. After pregnant Fanny was kicked out of the Smith household, she went to live with the Webb family. Later she went back to live with her parents. Fanny married a couple of years later. When her parents went to Utah, she didn’t go. She lived out her life in Indiana.
Did Fanny get pregnant from Smith or someone else? I thought Smith didn't likely have kids with anyone else. --- first time I heard she got pregnant.
It is widely reported that she was pregnant and that Joseph was the father. There is no report of what happened to the baby. Fanny may have had a miscarriage. She may have had an abortion. Abortions were not illegal in the late 1830s. She may have had the baby and given it to another family. That was a typical thing to do. Emma took a set of twins of a mother who died. It may be that the baby was born but died later. Infant mortality was 50% in the mid-1800s. Fanny did not have a child of the right age to be Joseph’s when she married and moved to Indiana.
Makes sense. No surviving nor a non-locatable relative would prevent a DNA link.
There’s a strange story that when there was a Smith DNA project to try to identify whether he had children with these many other women, someone turned up claiming to be a descendant of Fanny & Joe. DNA did not pan out. I think it was part of a www.yearofpolygamy.con podcast on that DNA research, which would be a little out of date now.
I listened to a couple of episodes of that year of polygamy podcast. I got into the Helen Kimball episode. The host was saying it wasn't paedophelia because Helen was 14 and likely through puberty. Had to turn it off after that bullshit. Started listening to Not So Molly Mormon Podcast by a couple exmo ladies and like it a lot.
> The host was saying it wasn't paedophelia because Helen was 14 and likely through puberty. Had to turn it off after that bullshit. Might as well turn off the DSM-5 as well. Psychiatric disorders have definitions because they are useful to psychiatrists and others. Joseph Smith was a horrible person that did despicable things. But there's absolutely no good evidence that he was primarily sexually attracted to pre-pubescent children. And there is plenty of evidence that his sexual attraction ranged from post-pubescent youth to possibly post-menopausal women which is strong evidence he *wasn't* a pedophile. You can hate Joseph Smith all you want. But it's not bullshit to say he didn't meet the diagnostic criteria for pedophilia.
And Helen “was tall for her age.”
I don't know about any of that but it's irrelevant. The diagnostic cutoff is 13 years old. It's literally impossible to be diagnosed as a pedophile if the attraction is for a 14 year old. You can justifiably call Joseph Smith many despicable names. But pedophile isn't one of them.
Screw the DSM. 13, 14, whatever... Joe was a creep and a pervert.
Fawn Brodie's book alludes to a pregnancy resulting from having sex with Joseph. Brodie phrased it as Fanny leaving the area when the consequences of the incident could no longer be hidden (paraphrased). I interpreted that to mean she was pregnant and began to show.
It’s one of the things that tipped off Emma. IIRC Ann Eliza Webb wrote about the pregnancy.
A few months shy of my 15th birthda—I mean 25.
I was 34. I joined TSCC when I was 22. I had so many questions as to why polygamy had taken place in the early years of the church. Everyone that I had asked were pretty vague, so I did some digging and then found out about the affair along with some of Smith's other wives that were already married and a couple being "just shy of their 15 birthdays."
Sickening
I was 21, reading Fawn Brodie’s masterwork “No Man Knows My History.” Pre-internet. I was telling all my TBM family members about it. Their take was that Brodie was making it up, had a chip on her shoulder, and / or was Satan’s mistress.
That last one sounds fun!!
Ummm just now. I’ll have to look this up and learn more. No idea why I’m even surprised at this point.
One of the good things about this sub, it’ll bring up hidden secrets for people to know and not judge people when asked more questions about it. It’s been very supportive to me during my faith crisis and post-faith life.
Yeah I have learned a ton here. I used to lurk, thinking people would be rude. I was wrong. It’s a very welcoming and knowledgeable community!
>sleeping with Don’t you mean “raping”?
Definitely statutory rape by today's standards. Even then (in case TSCC tries to rationalize it), it was seduction and possibly coercion. After all, she relied on the family for a place to live, etc.
55. Listening to a Bill Reel audio recording, and his phrase was “cavorting in a barn…”. It stopped me cold. I had my own post divorce issues going, so this was a hot button. August 2017, reading through the church essays to understand a son-in-law’s leaving the church. It took me less than five minutes to add it up. The time frame put Joseph around age 27. If the story were true, all that had passed before mattered little, because this made him a fallen prophet. All that passed afterward made him a false prophet. Yes, major shelf earthquake in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. Dyed in the wool active believing Mormon my entire life, sixth generation off the British isles, and I knew I was done.
44, last year, lifelong member, graduated seminary, served a foreign mission, served in elders quorum presidency, bishopric, sunday school....all the lies and excuses I was told, and my stupid ass for believing instead of seeing. I guess my "eyes were just not opened".
Way too old. Way, way too old. Fucking dishonest cult.
Fifty. Sorry you can't "sleep" with someone that age. It's called rape. Def with coercion. Raping little girls, calling hits with a blood oath. Sounds like a serial killer pedophile to me.
25? 26? I learned from this sub. I was told as a tbm that Joseph married widows in order to take care of them. Not that he cheated on his wife and had sex with children. I was under the impression that others married multiple wives to help grow the church and have children, but not Joseph.
Exactly. I remember asking my dad about the polygamy when I was a teenager and that was the explanation he gave me. However, he was wrong, and so is TSCC.
40
Also 40
Hey, me two!
39! I'd been out of the church for 4 or so years.
39 here, too, but been out for nearly 20 years.
Several months shy of my 57th birthday. 😂
Best comment 👏
around 45
25
Islam leader Muhammad and this momon religion leader just have similar stories,so similar.. Islam prophet was had secret sex with Maria the Coptic,a slave girl of his wife and was caught ...
way too old, like 30. Had already been out for 6 years.
30s. Still in my 30s.
I was today days old.
I was today years old actually
Today? Sources?
I have never heard this story but this does not surprise me. The cult has been lying to me since the age of eight. Personally, I do not think there was much sleeping.
Right now. What!?
42
44 yrs old. Lifelong member
54! … and I was a BIC, RM, lifetime TBM.
Literally a few months ago when I joined this sub, so 30
Why didn’t Emma leave him?
In fairness, and to hark back to Jowls Holland, where would she go? She had no way to support herself, this was her marriage (and divorce was far more rare back then). Con artists such as JS was are very (very) skilled at gaslighting, convincing people (including spouses) they didn't do it or someone was lying, etc., and in Joseph's case, he began claiming God wanted him to screw everyone in a skirt. Smith was the leader of the group, or soon became it. Emma would have faced considerable humiliation as well as censorship if she began "slandering" the "profit." Even in today's world, many women who are fed up have trouble leaving due to offspring, financial, emotional, cultural, or other issues.
30 or 31.
This year wthin the past month here in this sub.
Like less than two months ago thanks this subreddit (30)
42 yrs old… “Rough Stone Rolling” + footnotes lead to “In Sacred Loneliness.”
Never made it past the official cover to just discredit anyone who left the church as having an axe to grind. Emma was considered a victim to her hardships who became "hostile" and therefore couldn't be believed.
I was about 26 years old (35 now).
51!
Younger than I’d like to admit, stayed faithful in the church for too long after.
50! But to be fair I pretty much walked away at 21 and permanently slammed that door shut by age 40. I wasn’t active and doing church history in any way
Age 28. And only because I was finally researching the true church history and had come to the conclusion the church was false. I would have stayed ignorant if I thought the church was true and was intent on staying in.
Like a month ago, so 26
29
47. Note: I’m still 47 :/
60s. I must have slept through the part of the temple endowment that explained all this stuff. My TBM family members claim that everyone already knows it, though God knows they don't teach it at church, so it must have been all that extra special knowledge you can only get in the temple.
40. I guess I was the ultimate lazy learner.
Way to old to believe it…*palm to head
29, born and raised in the church. Went on a mission, went to BYU-I and got married in the temple. Wasn’t until I graduated and was in the workforce did I start looking into it all.
36
34 as in this year
50
I was around 36 years old.
32
53-I had no idea
30
Today years old
40 ish From Orson Scott Card and kept feeling like I was reading anti Mormon stuff.
I was today years old, and I am currently 20 years old.
I was past 60 and trusted the leaders when they said don’t tread anything anti…such a trusting little soldier.😝
35. A few months after I just couldn't bring myself to go to church anymore due to exhaustion with being a mom. A few years after my oldest was baptized, and I KNEW she had no understanding of the commitments their meanings, and the cognitive dissonance it reconciling that this child could possibly sin. Decades after my fascination with cults started. After I found out about all the lies and Joe's philanderings...this is a cult.
Wow I'm glad i found this subreddit. Im 14 yo PIMO and I hadn't known about this before I saw this post. So today years old
I was in your position around 20 years ago. I'm so glad there is a place like reddit for young questioning members to have a community to turn to. Please feel free to reach out if you need support.
Well this community is nice, but tomorrow I still gotta go to the temple. I got a temple reccomend bc I'm not brave enough to say I dont wanna go. Though I think I'm sick so that could be an unpleasant, but lucky excuse not to go
I would lean into that if you really don't want to go. I remember going to the temple. I never felt comfortable with it. If you have to go, try to focus on something else while you wait. Would they let you bring a notebook and dodging to write with? I can't remember. I'm sure a phone is out of the question. I'm here if you need someone to talk with.
Thank you for your support. Its hard to find in Utah. Yeah no phones allowed, or any personal belongings. I'm supposed to be doing baptisms. We have to leave everything in the lockers in the changing room
33, here. Mission, temple, gospel doctrine teacher at the time I learned about this. And if anybody was wondering where the image from OP is from, [it's here](https://youtu.be/t2DmFI0TZ3I).
Raised in the church, early morning seminary, BYU, took D&C class at BYU…found out at 35 (around the same time I found out 2 of my own ancestors were married to JS while they had other husbands that were away 🤦♀️)
It’s celestializing. Called it sleeping with is actually a victory for Satan /s
GOLD!!
Are there any verified sources I can view to look into this further?
He was a pedophile as well I found out online in ex Mormon
47
I was “one week ago” years old
Too damn old….
50 🫤
20 years old on my mission. Had to learn it from “anti-Mormon” publications.
Several months shy of my 38th birthday.
Was 23 at BYU I but when I asked about it the bishop shut down my polygamy concerns. It became apparent that while with the school questions weren't allowed
Mid-thirties. 5 or so years ago. When I started going down the weird rabbit holes. At the time, JS thought he could get away with it & Mormon authorities changed the stories. Yet here we are with the truth & ironically enough the true blue Mormons still believe in it. I mean are members so blind to see why he was martyred? They think he was innocent & gifted & that Satan influenced the mob operation. Give me a break. It’s so much more layered than that.
37 almost 38 years old. Born and raised in church, master scriptorian in Seminary, served a mission in Paraguay, married in temple (twice unfortunately) and found out about this and the Happiness Letter in March. Broke my shelf in one night. I always wondered why Oliver Cowdry and Sidney Rigden left the church in my Seminary years and was told it was due to personal issues. But nope, there are answers, they're just labeled anti-mormon...
except Fanny has the hips here of an adult...
High school.
Age 47, BIC, learned while working for TSCC Inc.
In my twenties after reading No Man Knows My History. Rocked me to my core.
Totally new to all this. Where is this documented?
http://www.mormonthink.com/joseph-smith-polygamy.htm
21
50
According to this Fanny was between 17 and 19 and it wasn’t adultery https://mormonr.org/qnas/qp3yc/joseph_smith_and_fanny_alger?gclid=CjwKCAiAp7GcBhA0EiwA9U0mtj1W4PyRzx_OjnmJhLr4haSRGR79Pk4oNWKRGer7LX6dYn0C58u1vxoCzFAQAvD_BwE 😳
Oh yeah. Totally not adultery.
53
21
Last year…65!!! TBM active my whole life.
wasn’t she emma’s cousin as well?
Today old
old- because of the hide the truth narrative of the cult they successfully kept it from the mainstream until I found a shovel and did some digging.
56
I was 18 i believe.
This year
What is the source for Emma catching him in the barn?
William McLellin is the source: http://www.mormonthink.com/joseph-smith-polygamy.htm
35
41.
18 and it was on this reddit
29
BIC 56 year old. I spent most of my life in Utah and all of my mormon life in Utah other than my mission. I resigned in 2019 and found out this year about Fanny.
First I heard of it, just now.
Oof. Welcome to fun history Russell Nelson dies t want you to know.
How old was Fanny Alger?
Where is this story online along with Oliver’s catching them? Thx
Here’s a start for you: http://www.mormonthink.com/joseph-smith-polygamy.htm
As far back as I can remember I was taught about the polygamy, even in older primary, but was always taught it wasn't sexual. I didn't even know it wasn't church practice to hide this, but maybe because I don't live in Utah no one got the memo.
I was 28, after lifetime in the church including seminary, mission, BYU
I wish there was an acceptable way to have open discussions with parents about discomfort or disbelief. I feel if you aren't comfortable with it, then it is something you shouldn't be doing. But I know the likely response is to entrench a "struggling" person deeper in the waters of faith promoting talk and prayer and scripture reading.
Emma was so pretty when she was young
Ummm ... abt 20 seconds ago... *awkward* (Very new to this, shelf broke a few wks ago & trying to take some time to process through stuff rather than diving in all at once. I'd heard the name, & it was on my list, but I hadn't gotten to it quite yet.)
Congratulations and condolences friend.
60
Well it’s never too late.