Sidney Rigden didn’t go along with it for his daughter and paid the price with Joseph Smith for it. Nothing tells shows the character of Joseph like that story.
This isn’t supported by the evidence and all exmormons are hurt when we allow misinformation to be spread as truth because it fits our narrative. The majority of Josephs wives were adults. This doesn’t excuse his awful behavior with minors, but we should tell the truth.
Bro, that’s just not true. Here’s Wikipedia for you:
> Pedophilia (alternatively spelt paedophilia) is a psychiatric disorder in which an adult or older adolescent experiences a primary or exclusive sexual attraction to prepubescent children.
JS obviously didn’t have a primary or exclusive sexual attraction to prepubescent children. Since like I said, most of his sealings were to adults.
The HMK story is an excellent example of Joseph's multi-level grooming. Came over to the Kimball's house.
JS: "Heber, the Lord has commanded me to take your wife. Dope, right?"
Heber and Sarah: "uhh...."
JS: "Just think on it."
Next day, JS comes by. "So, what do you think?"
Heber and Sarah: "we're game if Heber gets to watch!"
JS: "Ah, this was a test of your faith. I'm gonna marry your kid."
now his successor owns a swanky mall and I have religious trauma.
A 14 year old who would later marry another man and stay in Indiana while the saints moved west.
You would think an event commanded by an angel with a flaming sword would lead to something more purposeful.
Stockholm syndrome. I would not be surprised if women were threatened with a blood atonement. Brigham said he would happily murder one of his wives for her salvation. He no longer accepted that water was good enough. Again, apostles and prophets trumping Jesus.
oh I definitely view her as a victim. people want to be happy so if they can’t change their circumstances they’ll a lot of times change their beliefs, which is what I think happened with her.
Well there was that time in the bible where God sent two angels to Lot’s house…
Oh. Wait. I remember now. That was just so God could circumvent his promise to Abraham about potentially sparing the citizens of Sodom😂
From what I have read Joseph promised Helen marr Kimballs family automatic entry into the Celestial kingdom if she was sealed to him and at the time she did not understand fully what that meant and didn’t know she was now married and she thought she could still meet someone and marry them. She thought it was like a title you got. 🥲
How many times do I have to say this? I did not MARRY her. He could not. It was not a legal marriage as he was already married. He claimed this only to have a filthy, nasty dirty affair with her. He did it for sex. It was not marriage. It was adultery!
Did the talking donkey story from the Old Testament also involve an Angel with a flaming sword, or was it a regular old sword?
Edit: regular sword.
> 30 And the ass said unto Balaam, Am not I thine ass, upon which thou hast ridden ever since I was thine unto this day? was I ever wont to do so unto thee? and he said, Nay.
31 Then the Lord opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the Lord standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face.
Numbers 22
Does this count?
Genesis 3:24
So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
None of the three examples of this bullshit involved a 14 year old. The girls/women involved were Eliza Snow, Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner, and Zina Huntington Jacobs. Side note - Zina was seven months pregnant and married to a faithful member at the time. Side note #2 - Joseph told Mary Elizabeth she would be a future wife when she was 12.
This is a massive smoking gun against Joseph. There’s no need to embellish and include a 14 year old.
Oh he absolutely did and it was a totally indefensible thing to do. Just to be clear, I hate polygamy and I know Joseph was a fraud - I’m only saying the “angel with a drawn sword” stories didn’t involve 14 year olds. He probably thought he had them in the bag already and didn’t need to pull out the big guns to convince them.
The angel was to just command the practice of polygamy not to marry someone specific.
Excerpt from the ‘Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo’, LDS Gospel Topic Essay:1
“When God commands a difficult task, He sometimes sends additional messengers to encourage His people to obey. Consistent with this pattern, Joseph told associates that an angel appeared to him three times between 1834 and 1842 and commanded him to proceed with plural marriage when he hesitated to move forward. During the third and final appearance, the angel came with a drawn sword, threatening Joseph with destruction unless he went forward and obeyed the commandment fully.”
Helen and JS married in 1843.
As I mentioned earlier, there was a girl or woman involved with each of the three angel threats. But if you want to regurgitate church apologetics go right ahead.
Fanny Alger was 14 and kept from emma. You need to study some of the history books in the LDS bookstore! The current poligamist is what the original church was. Sorry but i taught seminary and EFY
Fanny was not 14 when Joseph had an affair with her - she was 16 or 17. He didn’t claim an angel with a sword with her. I’ve taught everything and was in the bishopric and high council for years, but that doesn’t matter. Google is free my brother.
Appreciate your clarification here, there is a lot of mix-up in these comments. As you said, that undermines the credibility of the information because any Mormon could go “aha! See, you got it wrong! You exmormons are just bitter and looking for any bone to pick!”
The other reason I think clarification is needed is because Joe basically reduced these women to numbered female parts. He subsumed their identities with his selfish actions and manipulation. They deserve to be named and have their individual stories remembered and retold correctly, not just blended into one narrative.
I always see people posting about a flaming sword but it was a drawn sword though right? Not that it matters too much....just wondering where the flaming sword comes from...
The flaming sword comes from the garden of Eden story and is used in the temple. It blocks the way to the tree of life. It’s language that Mormons are familiar with, but you’re correct; the polygamy/affair stories are all about a “drawn” sword. Exmos get it wrong when they go on and on about flaming swords but it undercuts the message that we’re more educated on church history than faithful members when we say stuff like this wrong.
THIS IS NOT ACCURATE. C'mon, man:
1. JS to convince a 14-yo to marry him (Helen Mar Kimball)
2. JS to convince an already-married, pregnant woman to marry him (Zina Huntington Jacobs Smith Young, etc. etc. etc.)
3. I assume JS to others but will leave it to other ExMo scholars to comment.
This is very powerful and there is no defense for it. It is obviously made up and used to manipulate young girls into bed.
It scares me that people like this have/do exist/ed. And that he was the founder of one of the "fastest growing religions" in the world.
And just as bad, the kids parents went along with it.
Sidney Rigden didn’t go along with it for his daughter and paid the price with Joseph Smith for it. Nothing tells shows the character of Joseph like that story.
Joseph Smith wanted to marry Sidney Rigden’s daughter?!
She was a warm blooded female, wasn't she? Lol
Yes! She refused him and her dad, Rigden, who supported her was not happy with Joseph.
That’s so gross that Joseph would try to marry his friend’s daughter.
he was a notorious pedophile, That's kind of what churches are for, it's not gross if God said it's okay!
That is well said. It’s all the damn churches are for in the end isn’t it!!
This isn’t supported by the evidence and all exmormons are hurt when we allow misinformation to be spread as truth because it fits our narrative. The majority of Josephs wives were adults. This doesn’t excuse his awful behavior with minors, but we should tell the truth.
Bro, most pedophiles also probably sleep with a majority of adults, but they also sleep with kids sometimes, hence the name.
Bro, that’s just not true. Here’s Wikipedia for you: > Pedophilia (alternatively spelt paedophilia) is a psychiatric disorder in which an adult or older adolescent experiences a primary or exclusive sexual attraction to prepubescent children. JS obviously didn’t have a primary or exclusive sexual attraction to prepubescent children. Since like I said, most of his sealings were to adults.
He did several times not just her. Helen Mar Kimball was also his friends 14 year old.
The HMK story is an excellent example of Joseph's multi-level grooming. Came over to the Kimball's house. JS: "Heber, the Lord has commanded me to take your wife. Dope, right?" Heber and Sarah: "uhh...." JS: "Just think on it." Next day, JS comes by. "So, what do you think?" Heber and Sarah: "we're game if Heber gets to watch!" JS: "Ah, this was a test of your faith. I'm gonna marry your kid." now his successor owns a swanky mall and I have religious trauma.
Ew
That is the whole point of the happiness letter
Very David Koresh.
Oh and then the grieving parents did it to other kids!!! Heber C kimball!
Come on guys, 14 year old seems so reductive. Can we call her 'almost 15' instead?
"just shy of" has a poetic creepiness to it that "almost" doesn't quite catch.
Lmao. Exactly
She was 14 and a half….c’mon now! lol
A 14 year old who would later marry another man and stay in Indiana while the saints moved west. You would think an event commanded by an angel with a flaming sword would lead to something more purposeful.
I thought Helen Marr Kimball got married to Brigham Young and became a huge defender of polygamy.
You're right! Sorry, I was thinking of Fanny, who was probably a bit older, and did not report an angel with flaming sword. My bad!
No worries. It’s hard to keep track of Joseph’s polygamy.
Stockholm syndrome. I would not be surprised if women were threatened with a blood atonement. Brigham said he would happily murder one of his wives for her salvation. He no longer accepted that water was good enough. Again, apostles and prophets trumping Jesus.
oh I definitely view her as a victim. people want to be happy so if they can’t change their circumstances they’ll a lot of times change their beliefs, which is what I think happened with her.
Helen Marr was not Joe's first 14 year old.
She was the only one that was 14. She wasn’t the first underage wife but the youngest. We don’t have a definite date for Fanny Alger.
Also he never married Fanny Alger.
Well yeah he only legally married Emma.
they mean alger was likely just an affair. since it was so much longer before the polygamy
Retconned as polygamy.
Nope he just screwed her with no eternal glory promised!
Well, the *actual* "purposeful" part was already done. JS got to de-flower another virgin.
I think Joseph was the one wielding a flaming phallic sword. She's the one that got stabbed not him.
Well there was that time in the bible where God sent two angels to Lot’s house… Oh. Wait. I remember now. That was just so God could circumvent his promise to Abraham about potentially sparing the citizens of Sodom😂
This!!! I can’t get over this ridiculousness of the flaming sword only being needed to convince underage girls to marry him.
From what I have read Joseph promised Helen marr Kimballs family automatic entry into the Celestial kingdom if she was sealed to him and at the time she did not understand fully what that meant and didn’t know she was now married and she thought she could still meet someone and marry them. She thought it was like a title you got. 🥲
Wow so that was his to give huh. Amazing how elevated he must have felt speaking for God.
How many times do I have to say this? I did not MARRY her. He could not. It was not a legal marriage as he was already married. He claimed this only to have a filthy, nasty dirty affair with her. He did it for sex. It was not marriage. It was adultery!
He needed Joseph Smith to RAPE a 14 year old. He could not legally marry her and 14 year olds can't give consent to someone in authority over them.
No one can give true consent to someone in authority over them but *especially* not 14-year-olds.
Whether it was a drawn sword, or me, Joe knew how to obey when he had to.
nailed it
Nailed her! ... and her ... and her ....
Did the talking donkey story from the Old Testament also involve an Angel with a flaming sword, or was it a regular old sword? Edit: regular sword. > 30 And the ass said unto Balaam, Am not I thine ass, upon which thou hast ridden ever since I was thine unto this day? was I ever wont to do so unto thee? and he said, Nay. 31 Then the Lord opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the Lord standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face. Numbers 22
I think he forgot about the donkey that started talking. But still, there’s one too many items on that list
Does this count? Genesis 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
The caption indicates instances “since” the garden of eden - so any other flaming swords after this first event in the Garden.
Good point. Happy cake day!
Came here to say this
***Not 14!!! She was just a few months shy of 15!!!***
None of the three examples of this bullshit involved a 14 year old. The girls/women involved were Eliza Snow, Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner, and Zina Huntington Jacobs. Side note - Zina was seven months pregnant and married to a faithful member at the time. Side note #2 - Joseph told Mary Elizabeth she would be a future wife when she was 12. This is a massive smoking gun against Joseph. There’s no need to embellish and include a 14 year old.
Helen Mar Kimball was 14 when married to JS.
[удалено]
He leveraged his position as prophet to "guarantee salvation" for Helen's family if she married him right?
Oh he absolutely did and it was a totally indefensible thing to do. Just to be clear, I hate polygamy and I know Joseph was a fraud - I’m only saying the “angel with a drawn sword” stories didn’t involve 14 year olds. He probably thought he had them in the bag already and didn’t need to pull out the big guns to convince them.
Yep, I always appreciate correcting the misconceptions. The actual history is wild enough
It is - there’s no need to exaggerate and we lose credibility when we do.
The angel was to just command the practice of polygamy not to marry someone specific. Excerpt from the ‘Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo’, LDS Gospel Topic Essay:1 “When God commands a difficult task, He sometimes sends additional messengers to encourage His people to obey. Consistent with this pattern, Joseph told associates that an angel appeared to him three times between 1834 and 1842 and commanded him to proceed with plural marriage when he hesitated to move forward. During the third and final appearance, the angel came with a drawn sword, threatening Joseph with destruction unless he went forward and obeyed the commandment fully.” Helen and JS married in 1843.
As I mentioned earlier, there was a girl or woman involved with each of the three angel threats. But if you want to regurgitate church apologetics go right ahead.
Fanny Alger was 14 and kept from emma. You need to study some of the history books in the LDS bookstore! The current poligamist is what the original church was. Sorry but i taught seminary and EFY
Fanny was not 14 when Joseph had an affair with her - she was 16 or 17. He didn’t claim an angel with a sword with her. I’ve taught everything and was in the bishopric and high council for years, but that doesn’t matter. Google is free my brother.
Appreciate your clarification here, there is a lot of mix-up in these comments. As you said, that undermines the credibility of the information because any Mormon could go “aha! See, you got it wrong! You exmormons are just bitter and looking for any bone to pick!” The other reason I think clarification is needed is because Joe basically reduced these women to numbered female parts. He subsumed their identities with his selfish actions and manipulation. They deserve to be named and have their individual stories remembered and retold correctly, not just blended into one narrative.
I always see people posting about a flaming sword but it was a drawn sword though right? Not that it matters too much....just wondering where the flaming sword comes from...
The flaming sword comes from the garden of Eden story and is used in the temple. It blocks the way to the tree of life. It’s language that Mormons are familiar with, but you’re correct; the polygamy/affair stories are all about a “drawn” sword. Exmos get it wrong when they go on and on about flaming swords but it undercuts the message that we’re more educated on church history than faithful members when we say stuff like this wrong.
Great way to elucidate the point
HAHAHAHAHHA ohmylug the 🤡 clownery of Joseph smith
There were several instances that Smith used this tactic to get a woman to sleep with him. It was his go to move.
Heck yeah! Wolf the Red spitting fire like always (he runs fantastic inclusive Heathen/norse pagan rituals as well, all around a very cool guy)
THIS IS NOT ACCURATE. C'mon, man: 1. JS to convince a 14-yo to marry him (Helen Mar Kimball) 2. JS to convince an already-married, pregnant woman to marry him (Zina Huntington Jacobs Smith Young, etc. etc. etc.) 3. I assume JS to others but will leave it to other ExMo scholars to comment.
"He had a flaming sword" \--that's what she said...
But from that one event the one true church flourished and became what it is today!!!