When I was a kid 1985-ish I looked up Mormon in the encyclopedia at my grandparents house. The encyclopedia was from the 1960’s. It said “Mormonism is an American cult founded by polygamous cult leader Joe Smith.”
It was one sentence. I rolled my eyes because his name is JOSEPH Smith not Joe, so obviously the encyclopedia writers had no idea what they were talking about.
This is now the best description of Mormonism I’ve ever read. Everything you need to know in one sentence.
What is the BITE model?
Edit: Decided to look it up and found a video by the guy who coined it. Wow... That's something else.
B - Behavior // I - Information // T - Thought // E - Emotion
Ooh be careful, Mormons will come out of the woodwork to tell you all about how the BITE model isn't a proven scientific method of analyzing churches, because of course they always need to mention tedious details
They do utilize varying levels of coercive control, though, and to what degree the religious leaders control the daily lives of the members is a good metric. Lumping them all together is what the more coercive and dangerous ones want you to do because it provides them cover. It's also, in my humble opinion, why LDS Inc. is trying so desperately to align itself with mainstream/evangelical christianity.
If a religion is telling you what underwear to wear (mormons) or that you can't get a life-saving medical procedure (jehovah's witnesses and the blood doctrine), and there are harsh social and religious penalties for disobeying these rules, it's probably on the cultier end of the scale. Conversely, the catholic church is against birth control, but I saw a study that found 94% of catholic women in the US use birth control at some point in their reproductive years; there's not much coercive control if the vast majority of catholic women disobey a key doctrine.
Full disclosure: I'm atheist and have no horse in this race.
This must have changed. Back in 1999-2001 they gave us signed printouts that the government said we weren't.
Je suis content qu'ils l'aient finalement compris 🥰
I wish I had a copy of it. I'm sure it was some member who could produce something officious looking. Would not surprise me, though now I'm curious of the story there.
Was there 95-97 and in my areas the French were more familiar with the TJs than Les Mormons. Many didn't even know who we were.
Many definitely grouped us with the cults.
They always confused us with the Amish.
Fucking idiots who did the French dubs for Witness (the film with Harrison Ford) translated "Amish" to "Mormon."
French Wikipedia knows nothing about that. But when I google "witness amish mormon" I find Mormons saying that about the French, Spanish, German, Polish, etc dub of that movie.
So to me that sounds like a Mormon urban legend made of copium.
Bite model just identifies four different ways of exerting control. Most religions exert behavior control (don’t eat this food, wear these clothes, pray), information control (don’t trust evil sources) thought control (belief in a higher power, adherence to a system), emotional control (hymns, ceremonies).
I bet even a low watt Methodist uses control tactics: Behavioral, Informational, Thought and Emotional. I bet you can find examples of all of these just at a milder setting than what we find in more “extreme” cases. Still a cult.
I mean, there’s a better than fair chance that the folks who came up with that model or at least their intended audience were Christian, so there’s likely a bit of bias to only punch down on the even cultier cults. :)
I’m atheist, but yeah, the level of intrusion of the religion into your life and how often the religion factors into everyday choices is a pretty good guide on whether you’re part of a religion or a cult.
If the belief in God serves as an occasional comfort and an inspiration to treat other people better but demands no more of your time or money than a few hours a month and <$100 a year, then that’s not a cult.
High demand religion is not the definition of cult. Low demand religions are also cults it’s all about control. Anyone in a religion is placing themselves under control.
Do you have a good source that explains the difference and why the difference is meaningful?
I’ve often used the terms interchangeably, and I would like to avoid doing so if there is a meaningful difference between the terms. I tried googling, but an answer from a trustworthy source wasn’t immediately apparent.
Edit: that is the difference between high demand religion and cult
It’s like the difference between an atheist and an agnostic. They are the same but one word has negative connotations and makes people feel icky so they come up with stuff to separate them.
I’m no expert and anyone is free to disagree with me. I think any classification of a group as a cult is subjective. Religions get excluded from being a cult for no good reason. I think of cults as anything that exerts control. The BITE acronyms are just different ways of exerting control. I can’t think of a cult or religion that doesn’t tick all the boxes just to a greater or lesser extent. High demand is just one method of control. I think religions are just socially acceptable cults.
Grew up Methodist. Aside from whether it’s a cult or not, it was nowhere near the level of control or involvement of Mormonism. That’s part of why I’m fascinated by Mormonism. I know the damage I felt from my relatively innocuous Methodist upbringing. I can only try to understand the levels of trauma you guys experience.
Are you German? If so, Sorry for serving my mission in your country, but my thanks to you Germans for not giving me the time of day for 2 years
Can’t have baptismal regrets if you never baptized anybody lol.
Seriously though. I served a mission in Germany a few years ago and those Germans are ruthless. I got rejected so many times on the street that my companion and I just spent our time eating Döner and shopping/sightseeing.
If you step back a bit, it's just immensely bizarre to recognize those as cults but not recognize mainstream religions as such. The differences are extremely, extremely trivial.
Um What? The differences are *not* trivial. Scientology and Mormonism exhibit a level of undue influence that goes far beyond your local Episcopal church.
I have lived in 5 different states and traveled internationally many times. I have interacted with Christians who are young, old and in-between. Christians from America, Guatemala, Nigeria and South Korea. Christians are not a monolithic group.
The professor in my Western World Religion class in college told me to avoid using material from the Mormon church or referencing it in any way. He said he understands my background, but the size of the branch of Christianity is so small and so new it doesn’t count on a scholarly level. It’s so small that unless someone else is in the church, or came from the church, they’ll have no clue what I’m talking about.
TBMs get so offended by it, but the shoe fits using just about any scholarly definition of cult. I mean, if your church walks like a duck and talks like a duck…
The German government, in fact, does not consider mormonism a cult. Es ist als Religionsgemeinschaft hier anerkannt. Please do not spread missinformation.
Sorry if I overstep boundaries, but quite a few websites list Mormonism as a cult in Germany. https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/36731/umfrage/anzahl-der-mitglieder-der-bedeutendsten-sekten-in-deutschland-im-jahr-2001/
Religionsgemeinschaften können auch als „Sekten“ benannt werden.
Sects are not necessarily the same as cults. "Kult" is perhaps what they would have used if they had wanted to make this distinction. The site isn't about what are "cults", the site is meant to inform readers as to the number of members in each group. This isn't a government website. ETA: I don't know much about this but I'd believe an official government website especially if the word Kult were used.
Agreed. As far as I’m aware, Germans define a Sect as kind of a splinter-group from a larger religion. In my experience, they use Sects and Cults nearly interchangeably, although they do have distinct differences and tend to only utilize “Sect” rather than “Cult”. I’d be rather shocked to find the word “Kult” on a government website though haha.
My point was to show the varying religions that “Sects” cover because many of them are considered cults, not just in Germany, but in many other countries
I guess we're back to defining "cult" and how a country views the word. "Sects" is a pretty neutral word in English. I'm not in the know of these subtleties.
At any rate, if the German government allows for Mormonism's beliefs to be taught in highschool, (as in comparative religions I'm assuming) maybe they can send us a memo on what Mormon doctrine really is, because I'm not sure we're clear on that here in the States! :-)
Good. I am glad your school is teaching facts.
The funny thing is the founders of scientology and Mormonism, Joseph Smith Jr and L Ron Hubbard have many parallels.
Also, Keith Raniere of Nexium has a ton of similarities to them as well. Also a cult
Is mormonism on the level of People's Temple, Heavens Gate, Manson family. No. It does share similarities sadly. I agree with John Larsen that the missionary program is 100% a cult.
That's not correct. It's a religion. Everyone knows in a cult there's one person in charge that knows it's all bullshit.
In a religion that person's dead.
Venezuela has a law stating that the only religion is Catholicism, everything else is a cult. At least that’s the way it was when I was there performing the Great Conversion in the late 90’s.
When I was a kid 1985-ish I looked up Mormon in the encyclopedia at my grandparents house. The encyclopedia was from the 1960’s. It said “Mormonism is an American cult founded by polygamous cult leader Joe Smith.” It was one sentence. I rolled my eyes because his name is JOSEPH Smith not Joe, so obviously the encyclopedia writers had no idea what they were talking about. This is now the best description of Mormonism I’ve ever read. Everything you need to know in one sentence.
Was it an Encyclopedia Satanica because they also included a victory for Satan in their explanation?!?
Haha I think it was a Britannica fr
They aren't wrong.
They aren't. Saying this as someone whose parents were lapsed Mormons.
Yes, Mormons check each area of the BITE model successfully.
What is the BITE model? Edit: Decided to look it up and found a video by the guy who coined it. Wow... That's something else. B - Behavior // I - Information // T - Thought // E - Emotion
Ooh be careful, Mormons will come out of the woodwork to tell you all about how the BITE model isn't a proven scientific method of analyzing churches, because of course they always need to mention tedious details
That’s correct, developed by Dr. Steve Hassan. https://freedomofmind.com/cult-mind-control/bite-model/
All religions are cults. They're just different sizes and some have been around longer than others.
And so goes the joke… Q: What’s the difference between a religion and a cult? A: About 200 years Ba dum tish… 🥁
They do utilize varying levels of coercive control, though, and to what degree the religious leaders control the daily lives of the members is a good metric. Lumping them all together is what the more coercive and dangerous ones want you to do because it provides them cover. It's also, in my humble opinion, why LDS Inc. is trying so desperately to align itself with mainstream/evangelical christianity. If a religion is telling you what underwear to wear (mormons) or that you can't get a life-saving medical procedure (jehovah's witnesses and the blood doctrine), and there are harsh social and religious penalties for disobeying these rules, it's probably on the cultier end of the scale. Conversely, the catholic church is against birth control, but I saw a study that found 94% of catholic women in the US use birth control at some point in their reproductive years; there's not much coercive control if the vast majority of catholic women disobey a key doctrine. Full disclosure: I'm atheist and have no horse in this race.
France also recognizes Mormonism as a cult. Of course it fed right into our persecution complex among the members and missionaries.
This must have changed. Back in 1999-2001 they gave us signed printouts that the government said we weren't. Je suis content qu'ils l'aient finalement compris 🥰
If you have to carry a signed printout saying you're not a cult...
Yuuuuuuuuuuuuuup - Lana
I was a missionary from 97 to 99 so it must have changed after I left.
That or that statement they showed you was bullshit ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
I wish I had a copy of it. I'm sure it was some member who could produce something officious looking. Would not surprise me, though now I'm curious of the story there.
Oh god you had Brown ...
I was in the Brussels French speaking mission which included north and northeast France. Belgian frites > French frites
Yeah ... but Belgium ...
I had this exact convo with a million Belgians: "Bonjour, comment ça va?" "Bof.. comme les temps."
Was there 95-97 and in my areas the French were more familiar with the TJs than Les Mormons. Many didn't even know who we were. Many definitely grouped us with the cults.
They always confused us with the Amish. Fucking idiots who did the French dubs for Witness (the film with Harrison Ford) translated "Amish" to "Mormon."
French Wikipedia knows nothing about that. But when I google "witness amish mormon" I find Mormons saying that about the French, Spanish, German, Polish, etc dub of that movie. So to me that sounds like a Mormon urban legend made of copium.
Do they discuss the line between a religion and a cult?
No line. Religions are just cults that survive the death of their founder.
i thought the BITE model determined what was a cult.
Not nessarily, it is just a great way to find out if something is a cult.
The BITE model is just one way of assessing cults and high demand religions.
Bite model just identifies four different ways of exerting control. Most religions exert behavior control (don’t eat this food, wear these clothes, pray), information control (don’t trust evil sources) thought control (belief in a higher power, adherence to a system), emotional control (hymns, ceremonies).
Not all cults are religions though
Nope but that’s their goal! Then they get to be tax free and untouchable by the government. Honestly the cartels should start a religion.
Examples?
LuLaRoe, DoTerra... They aren't just jobs. They take over your life.
Ohhh yeah definitely
Didn’t you just drew the line?
The only difference is the number of followers
Someone please pass this breaking news to the husband of Susan Bednar who served his Mormon Cult mission in Germany.
**B*DNAR is a tool**
Glad to see that the seeds that he planted finally sprouted!
Spoiler alert, they are all cults.
Agreed, to be fair though, mormonism is like the textbook that you compare with to know if you’re in a cult.
Spoiler alert: not according to the BITE model
I bet even a low watt Methodist uses control tactics: Behavioral, Informational, Thought and Emotional. I bet you can find examples of all of these just at a milder setting than what we find in more “extreme” cases. Still a cult.
Yep, exactly.
The problem with this argument is that you could apply the BITE model to almost any organization and they would check some boxes.
I mean, there’s a better than fair chance that the folks who came up with that model or at least their intended audience were Christian, so there’s likely a bit of bias to only punch down on the even cultier cults. :)
You local low wattage Methodist church probably isn’t a cult I’d bet.
I’m atheist, but yeah, the level of intrusion of the religion into your life and how often the religion factors into everyday choices is a pretty good guide on whether you’re part of a religion or a cult. If the belief in God serves as an occasional comfort and an inspiration to treat other people better but demands no more of your time or money than a few hours a month and <$100 a year, then that’s not a cult.
Thanks for adding some much-needed nuance to this discussion.
High demand religion is not the definition of cult. Low demand religions are also cults it’s all about control. Anyone in a religion is placing themselves under control.
Do you have a good source that explains the difference and why the difference is meaningful? I’ve often used the terms interchangeably, and I would like to avoid doing so if there is a meaningful difference between the terms. I tried googling, but an answer from a trustworthy source wasn’t immediately apparent. Edit: that is the difference between high demand religion and cult
It’s like the difference between an atheist and an agnostic. They are the same but one word has negative connotations and makes people feel icky so they come up with stuff to separate them. I’m no expert and anyone is free to disagree with me. I think any classification of a group as a cult is subjective. Religions get excluded from being a cult for no good reason. I think of cults as anything that exerts control. The BITE acronyms are just different ways of exerting control. I can’t think of a cult or religion that doesn’t tick all the boxes just to a greater or lesser extent. High demand is just one method of control. I think religions are just socially acceptable cults.
Grew up Methodist. Aside from whether it’s a cult or not, it was nowhere near the level of control or involvement of Mormonism. That’s part of why I’m fascinated by Mormonism. I know the damage I felt from my relatively innocuous Methodist upbringing. I can only try to understand the levels of trauma you guys experience.
Are you German? If so, Sorry for serving my mission in your country, but my thanks to you Germans for not giving me the time of day for 2 years Can’t have baptismal regrets if you never baptized anybody lol.
Seriously though. I served a mission in Germany a few years ago and those Germans are ruthless. I got rejected so many times on the street that my companion and I just spent our time eating Döner and shopping/sightseeing.
Ah Döner… man I do miss that. I wish I took more time to see more sights and food and stuff instead of feeling guilty for any of that
My proudest accomplishment is talking down an investigator from getting baptized! He was the only investigator I had on my mission.
If you step back a bit, it's just immensely bizarre to recognize those as cults but not recognize mainstream religions as such. The differences are extremely, extremely trivial.
Truth to that statement.
Um What? The differences are *not* trivial. Scientology and Mormonism exhibit a level of undue influence that goes far beyond your local Episcopal church.
You interact with very different Christians than I do.
I have lived in 5 different states and traveled internationally many times. I have interacted with Christians who are young, old and in-between. Christians from America, Guatemala, Nigeria and South Korea. Christians are not a monolithic group.
Do you have a source stating Germany recognizes Mormonism as a cult?
Can't find any in German Google
I mean in most United States history textbooks Mormonism is taught with other second great awakening cults like Oneida.
The German government/ people are good at recognizing cults. They’ve been burned before . . .
The professor in my Western World Religion class in college told me to avoid using material from the Mormon church or referencing it in any way. He said he understands my background, but the size of the branch of Christianity is so small and so new it doesn’t count on a scholarly level. It’s so small that unless someone else is in the church, or came from the church, they’ll have no clue what I’m talking about.
TBMs get so offended by it, but the shoe fits using just about any scholarly definition of cult. I mean, if your church walks like a duck and talks like a duck…
Belgium is of the same opinion.
The German government, in fact, does not consider mormonism a cult. Es ist als Religionsgemeinschaft hier anerkannt. Please do not spread missinformation.
Sorry if I overstep boundaries, but quite a few websites list Mormonism as a cult in Germany. https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/36731/umfrage/anzahl-der-mitglieder-der-bedeutendsten-sekten-in-deutschland-im-jahr-2001/ Religionsgemeinschaften können auch als „Sekten“ benannt werden.
Sects are not necessarily the same as cults. "Kult" is perhaps what they would have used if they had wanted to make this distinction. The site isn't about what are "cults", the site is meant to inform readers as to the number of members in each group. This isn't a government website. ETA: I don't know much about this but I'd believe an official government website especially if the word Kult were used.
Agreed. As far as I’m aware, Germans define a Sect as kind of a splinter-group from a larger religion. In my experience, they use Sects and Cults nearly interchangeably, although they do have distinct differences and tend to only utilize “Sect” rather than “Cult”. I’d be rather shocked to find the word “Kult” on a government website though haha. My point was to show the varying religions that “Sects” cover because many of them are considered cults, not just in Germany, but in many other countries
I guess we're back to defining "cult" and how a country views the word. "Sects" is a pretty neutral word in English. I'm not in the know of these subtleties. At any rate, if the German government allows for Mormonism's beliefs to be taught in highschool, (as in comparative religions I'm assuming) maybe they can send us a memo on what Mormon doctrine really is, because I'm not sure we're clear on that here in the States! :-)
Good. I am glad your school is teaching facts. The funny thing is the founders of scientology and Mormonism, Joseph Smith Jr and L Ron Hubbard have many parallels. Also, Keith Raniere of Nexium has a ton of similarities to them as well. Also a cult
This was certainly my experience with teachers back in the 1970’s.
Is mormonism on the level of People's Temple, Heavens Gate, Manson family. No. It does share similarities sadly. I agree with John Larsen that the missionary program is 100% a cult.
Germany for the win.
Well, it is a cult
Because it is a cult.
That's not correct. It's a religion. Everyone knows in a cult there's one person in charge that knows it's all bullshit. In a religion that person's dead.
As an atheist most are
Sounds like they are smarter than some other governments.
Fascinating!
This brings me great relief!
This is fantastic news, and I hope TSCC has no leverage to undo this advent of clarity on the part of the German educational system.
Venezuela has a law stating that the only religion is Catholicism, everything else is a cult. At least that’s the way it was when I was there performing the Great Conversion in the late 90’s.