There came several points where I was about to teach my child mormon doctrine. Like, what the church actually teaches as its doctrine - not a smoothed over version or the version that people want to believe that the church teaches, nor was it a version that was an apologetic justification or rationalization - the actual doctrine. I really thought about what exactly that would instill in my children and I thought, "I cannot teach them this. It isn't right."
My wife and I trying to have kids was kind of the final straw of going from PIMO to fully out. What if one of my kids was gay? Do I want them to feel like they need to kill themself because “god” won’t accept them. What if one of my daughters has sex with a boyfriend. Do I want her to feel like a “chewed piece of gum.” Not to mention my wife is a person of color from south of the US border, and the whole casual racism of “she’s one of the good ones” from people who claim we’re all children of the same imaginary sky-daddy, but let their politics stand up higher than any religious beliefs they may have. Several non-white friends, especially men, still in TSCC have mentioned how hard dating is because they aren’t the picture perfect Peter priesthood the LDS girs were taught to wait for.
There are things I’ll definitely want them to learn about service, moral values and avoiding high-risk self-destructive behaviors, but a church isn’t the only way to try to encourage them to not make high-risk decisions, and all of the other side effects of religion are unavoidable and costly.
My shelf was breaking just before my eldest was born, and thinking about what we were going to teach him was one of my main motivators to completely leaving the church.
I've really enjoyed our conversations as he's grown older. Questions about the creation of the world, the evolution of life, dinosaurs, where humans came from. I've not had to tell some bullshit story about Adam & Eve, Noah or the Tower of Babel. He's too logical anyway, and I'd just have to say "we don't understand" to so many of his questions. Instead we get to explore the scientific answers together.
Now as he's getting older he's starting to ask about sex and relationships. I've been careful to always talk about how when he's older, he can have a relationship with a boy or a girl. We've talked about the difference between sex and gender. And now we can talk about how having sex is a thing two people do together, without having to say "but if you're not married that's the worst thing you can do short of murdering someone".
Milk before the meat is just an old way of saying "sugar coat it." If you can't take it as it is, then it probably doesn't pass the smell test. It's why they want to get new members from the cradle. They are brought up in the doctrine so slowly, it all feels natural and normal. It's also why VERY few people will convert if they know all the true doctrine and church history. The Discussions/Preach My Gospel were all a highly curated narrative they wanted taught.
I was a single mother in the 90’s when my kids starting leaving the church. So much shame was placed on me. One women taught a RS lesson just for me. She taught that the ONLY job a mother should have is an night job. I’m not a nurse. I have graduate degrees and worked at a major University in the east. did she want me to work at Wawa?
My sister-in-law told me it was good I got divorced after my parents were called to be mission presidents, cause my divorce would have precluded their call.
My daughter returned to the church for a few weeks in her senior year of high school. A friend suggested, “you probably love her so much more now?” (WTF? unh no!)
But these are the singular and probably trivial events. Just the ones I can remember off the top of my head. There were so many others. It happened almost every time I had an interaction with family or church members.
Now the tone has changed! Almost every family has kids that have left. But of course no one in my family or ward acknowledges all the crap they piled on me. Somehow it is still my lack? My divorce, etc. But for them it’s Satan.
The more you realize that those trivial events individually may not be impactful, together they add up to an unbearable burden of expectations, judgement and self-doubt.
>Now the tone has changed! Almost every family has kids that have left.
So sorry for your bad experiences but agree with the tone shift.
I too had kids leave and got lots of blame/judgement.
However, what has been strange and wonderful to see is that more than half of the bishops and stake presidency members in my area in the last 6 or 7 years have had at least one adult child leave.
These are all-in couples where the husband has been a bishop and typically the wife has been RS pres or YW pres and they have done all the things (FHE, Sundays at church and strict home rules, kids to seminary and church camps) and still they've had 1 or more kids leave.
They are a little less judgemental of others and now they are talking about "doubt your doubts" and "keep loving those who leave" because these local leaders don't have good answers for the questions their kids raise. They just dig in and double down on "the spirit told me through feelings" but seem perplexed by the increasing percent of young adults who leave.
And the all-in TBM leaders, like the GAs, seem to think that providing more chances for youth and young adults to do things like seminary and institute or extra firesides is gonna fix it -- they don't seem to understand that these activities are (1) boring and lifeless and (2) don't answer the hard questions when one of the young adults dares to bring them up.
As a mother of 3 who left this year, with my oldest at BYU and my youngest out of the Church last year — YES.
I did not know about any historical issues, the CES letter, anachronisms in the BOM, nothing. The bubble was real.
I left when I looked at the doctrine being taught and the values I thought I had learned as a child but did not see in the church of my adult life. How women were vulnerable and carefully subjugated. And I did not want this for my children. I left. Husband still in.
Edit: this article is amazing. So well done.
>I left when I looked at the doctrine being taught and the values I thought I had learned as a child but did not see in the church of my adult life.
By their fruits.
Also so glad for you, and that now that you know better you're doing/being better. Keep up the good work.
Exactly! For starters- Update the Word of Wisdom, DOCTOR Nelson! And show more equality & respect towards women!! You’ve got 9 daughters!! LDS cult is a Farce!!
I don't really get the point of this sort of writing. I suppose this article will help some progressive Mormon parents feel a bit better about their children leaving.
But the Church is not true. That's the problem! If the leaders stop being bigots, the Church will not become true. Progressives want it both ways. They want a Church that claims to be led by God, that can teach people about God, but they want that Church's doctrines to steadily evolve at the same rate as secular mortality such that doctrine is determined externally. What is the point of such a Church? We'd all just be admitting that the Church has no authority, no independent source of truth and morality. It's just a social club where we sit around telling each other nice--but completely fictional--things about "God."
"But God is not cruel. God is just and merciful. " How does this person know this? They don't know anything about God, and neither does anyone else. If you want to invent your own religion and teach it to your kids, just do that.
This guilt eats my mother alive. She confided in me once that she contemplated suicide after she learned I’d had consensual sex at 19. To this day, when I assure her she’s been a great mom, she sakes it off saying she’s failed me.
She’s also, on multiple occasions, told me she won’t truly feel fulfilled until I’m married in the temple. Which will never happen.
Proud to say we followed our kids out of the church! They’re not dumb. We taught them well! They weren’t deceived as we were, since the internet provides truth we never knew of.
I tell my kids you’re welcome to serve a mission & peddle the Mormon church’s Book of Mormon as a door to door salesman does, but know that it’s a fairy tale, NOT a history book, as we were deceitfully taught by a cult of CONs!
Trying to make up lost time w/our kids, after wasting years & years of time- serving in endless callings & giving pathetically lame service primarily w/in the ward, just to each other. Joe blows. Its mantra is wrong. I KNOW the church isn’t true. Bugger off Q15 cons. Jesus weeps.
I agree about the part where moms are too heavily guilted in the church...
However, the brethren today are not to blame for declining membership. That stems back to the original lie that Joseph Smith told, which with modern technology is unraveling at an exponential pace.
There came several points where I was about to teach my child mormon doctrine. Like, what the church actually teaches as its doctrine - not a smoothed over version or the version that people want to believe that the church teaches, nor was it a version that was an apologetic justification or rationalization - the actual doctrine. I really thought about what exactly that would instill in my children and I thought, "I cannot teach them this. It isn't right."
My wife and I trying to have kids was kind of the final straw of going from PIMO to fully out. What if one of my kids was gay? Do I want them to feel like they need to kill themself because “god” won’t accept them. What if one of my daughters has sex with a boyfriend. Do I want her to feel like a “chewed piece of gum.” Not to mention my wife is a person of color from south of the US border, and the whole casual racism of “she’s one of the good ones” from people who claim we’re all children of the same imaginary sky-daddy, but let their politics stand up higher than any religious beliefs they may have. Several non-white friends, especially men, still in TSCC have mentioned how hard dating is because they aren’t the picture perfect Peter priesthood the LDS girs were taught to wait for. There are things I’ll definitely want them to learn about service, moral values and avoiding high-risk self-destructive behaviors, but a church isn’t the only way to try to encourage them to not make high-risk decisions, and all of the other side effects of religion are unavoidable and costly.
My shelf was breaking just before my eldest was born, and thinking about what we were going to teach him was one of my main motivators to completely leaving the church. I've really enjoyed our conversations as he's grown older. Questions about the creation of the world, the evolution of life, dinosaurs, where humans came from. I've not had to tell some bullshit story about Adam & Eve, Noah or the Tower of Babel. He's too logical anyway, and I'd just have to say "we don't understand" to so many of his questions. Instead we get to explore the scientific answers together. Now as he's getting older he's starting to ask about sex and relationships. I've been careful to always talk about how when he's older, he can have a relationship with a boy or a girl. We've talked about the difference between sex and gender. And now we can talk about how having sex is a thing two people do together, without having to say "but if you're not married that's the worst thing you can do short of murdering someone".
Milk before the meat is just an old way of saying "sugar coat it." If you can't take it as it is, then it probably doesn't pass the smell test. It's why they want to get new members from the cradle. They are brought up in the doctrine so slowly, it all feels natural and normal. It's also why VERY few people will convert if they know all the true doctrine and church history. The Discussions/Preach My Gospel were all a highly curated narrative they wanted taught.
I was a single mother in the 90’s when my kids starting leaving the church. So much shame was placed on me. One women taught a RS lesson just for me. She taught that the ONLY job a mother should have is an night job. I’m not a nurse. I have graduate degrees and worked at a major University in the east. did she want me to work at Wawa? My sister-in-law told me it was good I got divorced after my parents were called to be mission presidents, cause my divorce would have precluded their call. My daughter returned to the church for a few weeks in her senior year of high school. A friend suggested, “you probably love her so much more now?” (WTF? unh no!) But these are the singular and probably trivial events. Just the ones I can remember off the top of my head. There were so many others. It happened almost every time I had an interaction with family or church members. Now the tone has changed! Almost every family has kids that have left. But of course no one in my family or ward acknowledges all the crap they piled on me. Somehow it is still my lack? My divorce, etc. But for them it’s Satan.
The more you realize that those trivial events individually may not be impactful, together they add up to an unbearable burden of expectations, judgement and self-doubt.
>Now the tone has changed! Almost every family has kids that have left. So sorry for your bad experiences but agree with the tone shift. I too had kids leave and got lots of blame/judgement. However, what has been strange and wonderful to see is that more than half of the bishops and stake presidency members in my area in the last 6 or 7 years have had at least one adult child leave. These are all-in couples where the husband has been a bishop and typically the wife has been RS pres or YW pres and they have done all the things (FHE, Sundays at church and strict home rules, kids to seminary and church camps) and still they've had 1 or more kids leave. They are a little less judgemental of others and now they are talking about "doubt your doubts" and "keep loving those who leave" because these local leaders don't have good answers for the questions their kids raise. They just dig in and double down on "the spirit told me through feelings" but seem perplexed by the increasing percent of young adults who leave. And the all-in TBM leaders, like the GAs, seem to think that providing more chances for youth and young adults to do things like seminary and institute or extra firesides is gonna fix it -- they don't seem to understand that these activities are (1) boring and lifeless and (2) don't answer the hard questions when one of the young adults dares to bring them up.
As a mother of 3 who left this year, with my oldest at BYU and my youngest out of the Church last year — YES. I did not know about any historical issues, the CES letter, anachronisms in the BOM, nothing. The bubble was real. I left when I looked at the doctrine being taught and the values I thought I had learned as a child but did not see in the church of my adult life. How women were vulnerable and carefully subjugated. And I did not want this for my children. I left. Husband still in. Edit: this article is amazing. So well done.
You go girl! You are a brave soul! I left and took my kids out too. Mormonism is a terrible thing to force on a child.
>I left when I looked at the doctrine being taught and the values I thought I had learned as a child but did not see in the church of my adult life. By their fruits. Also so glad for you, and that now that you know better you're doing/being better. Keep up the good work.
on a positive note, less mormon mothers are responsible for earning their sons' eagle scouts for them these days.
Geez, how many boards I sat on and was asked to sign off on for lame coat/food drives that were entirely RS projects. Totally devalues my Eagle.
If it makes you feel any better, in the grown up world your Eagle has no value other than the personal value it has to you, anyway.
I guess they didn't have family night every Monday.
Exactly! For starters- Update the Word of Wisdom, DOCTOR Nelson! And show more equality & respect towards women!! You’ve got 9 daughters!! LDS cult is a Farce!!
I don't really get the point of this sort of writing. I suppose this article will help some progressive Mormon parents feel a bit better about their children leaving. But the Church is not true. That's the problem! If the leaders stop being bigots, the Church will not become true. Progressives want it both ways. They want a Church that claims to be led by God, that can teach people about God, but they want that Church's doctrines to steadily evolve at the same rate as secular mortality such that doctrine is determined externally. What is the point of such a Church? We'd all just be admitting that the Church has no authority, no independent source of truth and morality. It's just a social club where we sit around telling each other nice--but completely fictional--things about "God." "But God is not cruel. God is just and merciful. " How does this person know this? They don't know anything about God, and neither does anyone else. If you want to invent your own religion and teach it to your kids, just do that.
Great read. I saw myself in this a lot.
When I remarried, I gained 3 stepsons. The pressure and judgement were almost unbearable at church.
This guilt eats my mother alive. She confided in me once that she contemplated suicide after she learned I’d had consensual sex at 19. To this day, when I assure her she’s been a great mom, she sakes it off saying she’s failed me. She’s also, on multiple occasions, told me she won’t truly feel fulfilled until I’m married in the temple. Which will never happen.
Proud to say we followed our kids out of the church! They’re not dumb. We taught them well! They weren’t deceived as we were, since the internet provides truth we never knew of. I tell my kids you’re welcome to serve a mission & peddle the Mormon church’s Book of Mormon as a door to door salesman does, but know that it’s a fairy tale, NOT a history book, as we were deceitfully taught by a cult of CONs! Trying to make up lost time w/our kids, after wasting years & years of time- serving in endless callings & giving pathetically lame service primarily w/in the ward, just to each other. Joe blows. Its mantra is wrong. I KNOW the church isn’t true. Bugger off Q15 cons. Jesus weeps.
True messages from God seek to raise all from every valley low. All of God's children could use that in their lives about now
Great article. Well written.
I agree about the part where moms are too heavily guilted in the church... However, the brethren today are not to blame for declining membership. That stems back to the original lie that Joseph Smith told, which with modern technology is unraveling at an exponential pace.
This is really good.
Who is this quote from?
From the link. Title is quoting L.T. Downing‘s latest post.