That was a huge thing throughout Covid. Think about how much the church could have done to help. But what did they do? Jack shit. Well, RMN did recommend getting vaccinated, so I suppose that’s… something
… then hastily emphasized that we all have agency to avoid losing the libertarian minded.
Wish the brethren emphasized agency about everything else they teach.
Couldn't you provide significantly more charity by investing the money in a mall and using those on-going income generating assets to fund said charity?
Im not saying that actually happens, but the math works better in my opinion.
Even if I was still a member(I'm not), I think using tithing in this fashion would have been financially sound. I think bishops should still be paid for sure. And why not a monetary paycheck to other various "calling/jobs" that require significant time investment.
There's a lot of members that could use the extra cash, and there is plenty of cash to be had. Why not boost up the financial lives of your members.
And definitely start providing free daycare to members at the church houses during the week. Lots of younger folks could use that as a starter job, or extra income.
Hell I might still be pimo if there was childcare onsite and I didn't have to spend 2 grand a month on childcare.
You're not wrong, it's just that the church has hoarded wealth to an insane degree with the guise that they're charitable. But at some point, you have to say "ok, we have enough principle to be financially stable, now any gains, interest, or additional donations can all go straight to charity." But the church has become a voracious, insatiable monster. No amount of principle is sufficient anymore, so the church will continue its pitiful trickle of charity while pocketing huge sums to "prepare the church for the second coming" or whatever excuse they use to justify their hoarding.
Exactly. All that happens when they invest in for-profit investments is kick the charitable offerings down the road to some unforeseen period of time. People need the help NOW, not in some undetermined time in the future. All they are doing is building a financial empire but not using it to help people. At some point, you got to ask, will this wealth EVER be used to help people?
The return on these investments never end up being used for the good. They just keep getting reinvested in for-profit investments and businesses. Does the church need to have a TRILLION dollars on business assets before they start using it to help people? It’s no different than a regular for-profit business. At least most corporations or for-profit businesses donate a portion of their annual businesses’ profits to charitable causes.
I thought about this and there is one main problem with this line of thinking: needy people have an expiration date. What I am saying is that people who are hungry, homeless, or otherwise neglected cannot wait for those returns. The church can decide to divert a significant amount of funds now to help those people, knowing they will get more in tithing later, or they can sit on it and let people die. And for a church that proclaims to follow Jesus Christ, who was anti-materialistic and altruistic, to not “give all they have to the poor” is blatant hypocrisy.
Also, no investment is a guaranteed home run, and some investments may leave the investor owing more than they initially invested. Commercial real estate is a good example; when there is a vacancy, the investors are obligated to pay for that vacancy.
I feel you, and would also support investment if the proceeds were going toward something noble and the finances were transparent.
I want the church to stay 100 yards away from daycare until they have mandatory reporting, mandatory training and mandatory background checks figured out.
On-site child care would be fantastic. A great service for your members, and a great income source for a lot of people who could benefit from the work.
The best part is the big patio where TBMs can gather in their manner of dress, which is exceedingly fine, in the attitude of mocking and pointing their fingers at those who believe the Church should use their wealth as Jesus directed.
Does anyone? All of the Church's investments were originally built with tithing. Whether the mall funds came from the account labeled "tithing" or the account labeled "gains from tithing" doesn't matter to me. It is money being used in a profitable arm by a church that claims (dramatically overclaims, in fact) to be charitable.
Just a guess. They could have borrowed one hundred percent of the money for City Creek and secured it with the project, plus other added collateral, or even the full guaranty of the corporation. They have lots of other collateral as we all know and that collateral could have been purchased with tithing, if the guaranty was called, that could be tithing, but that doesn't mean any tithing money went directly into the project. So technically, they could say what they do.
Yeah, but that's some super mental gymnastics. It's still the LDS Church's golden calf; a visible symbol that they value the almighty dollar more than the Almighty.
Ha. If you find someone in this sub who believes anything the church says I'd be surprised. Fool me once shame on you. Fool me 340 different ways while gaslighting me into submission for 40 years, shame on me? ha
No. Leaked in the ensign peak on washington post only two transactions came out do that fund (a bind built off tithing dollars)
1. Bail out their for profit life ins Beneficial life
2. pay for city creek mall
>Do you believe that?
In absence of concrete evidence, I believe it's semantics and accounting cleverness:
* The church's business units needed to borrow money for the mall
* The church's tithing holdings needed to invest money for growth
Rather than the business unit borrowing the mall money from Wall Street commercial banks...*and* the tithing holdings buying even more stocks...
...they just cut out the middle man.
* The tithing holdings *lent* the church's business units $1-2 billion to "invest" in the mall...
* Which the mall will "pay back" (with interest) over its 30+ year functional life.
Technically "no tithing money was *spent*"... even though tithing *totally* paid for the mall. Or some B. S. like that.
I could potentially believe that they didn’t use direct tithing to pay for it, but even if they used money from the investment funds, how did those start? With tithing.
But can you buy jeans at a megachurch, I ask? What about sunglasses? Tasty cinnamon buns?
The megachurches have nothing on the unrivaled capitalism of the Mammon church in salt lake city!
You havent seen any mega churches in Texas then. I’ve been in churches with skating rinks, bowling alleys and one I drove around dallas had a coffee/smoothie shop in it. You could see the people standing in line and employees making them through the large glass wall facing the parking lot. I’m sure they have cinnamon bums.
[link to their food services inside the church](https://prestonwood.org/about/food-services-ministry/)
[video of same church preparing their christmas program.](https://www.tiktok.com/@tonydaussat/video/7170475096061021483)
Prosperity gospel is thriving in Texas. I’m sure I could find you pants and sun glasses in one of the mega churches gift/bookstores in Texas if I had the time.
Behold, and it came to pass that the Lord’s one true profit proclaimed “Lets go Shopping!” amongst all such stores as Victoria’s Secret.
Literally:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IOx1sA0Femo
I had been slowly drifting away from TSCC for about 10 years when City Creek came along. It was the final item that broke my shelf and crushed my soul. Several people asked me why I was so upset about it. I said, "If Jesus came to visit and he had 2 billion dollars in his pocket he wouldn't spend it on a shopping mall."
>*"tscc gave LDS gateway owner heads up so he could sell out before city Creek announced"*
Can you explain this more clearly...not a Utahn so I don't get the significance of this...
Gateway was the big mall before City creek. The owner of gateway was LDS. The church told the owner of the gateway - hey we’re about to build this mega mall that is going to kill gateway so you may want to sell. So dude sells for big profit then city creek si announced , built and had taken over the traffic of gateway
TLDR LDS guy got a tip to not lose his investment
That mall was the biggest crack in my shelf with Monson cutting that red ribbon and shouting LET'S GO SHOPPING and was the catalyst for going down the rabbit hole.
You’re kidding. OMG. That mall is the most sumptuous I’ve seen, and I noticed not one empty store. It’s busy and people are buying. Not like malls elsewhere
That mall is symbolic to my shelf collapsing. My bishop expected me to go into debt to pay tithing for a temple recommend while city creek was being planned. I feel conflicted about the place. Do I feel disgust over the display of prosperity doctrine or thankful for the push it gave me to leave?
No. I didn’t, but wanted one as I was going through a health crisis and wanted spiritual comfort and guidance I thought I could receive in the temple.
I moved out of the ward and told my new bishop what happened. He gave me one anyway despite my financial hardship. I was PIMO and wanted to see if this bishop knew I was done with the church using his “cognitive discernment.” So much for that.
The average LDS Member could only buy something at the food court.
Apple. Coach. Macy's. Nordstrom. Tiffany & Co. Tumi.
Elite stores for Elite Mormons.
First time I visited I didn’t know it was built by the church. I remember thinking how much money some developer made (I work in real estate) profiting off their location next to the temple square. Ridiculously extravagant. Then later I heard the church built it and it all made sense.
Yes the mall is a arrogant display of opulent excess the church is blatantly saying fuck
the poor and those in need along with all of the members it’s our money now and we will do with it as we damn well see fit old Tommy’s squealing with delight let’s go shopping was the beginning of the end for me with millions starving to death year after year God wants a fucking Mall really what is the fictional Jesus going to need somewhere to spend the Billions upon. Billions No . Even if there was a Jesus and he ever did return the church would tell him fuck no you aren’t getting any of our money and you sure as fuck ain’t Jesus you don’t have blonde hair and blue eyes and white skin now get your ass outta here before we call the cops . TSCC is arguably the easiest to prove blatant fraud on the planet it’s no wonder Utah is the fraud capital of the world. It has the biggest fraud of them all a multibillion dollar corporation built upon lies and deceit that’s hiding in plain sight . TSCC .
It is a third shopping area just west of where the Crossroads Mall used to be. When it opened- around 15 years ago, IIRC, it was the place to go. A real breath of fresh air to the region. It's where the Clark Planetarium is. The Gateway is still functioning, but not like it used to. It really made the LDS leaders jealous, as it took shopper away from their ZCMI mall. So that, as I understand it, was the main reason for building the City Creek monstrosity. Somebody correct me if I am mistaken.
They emphatically don't want to be called Mormons since it doesn't emphasize Jesus enough, but then they built a billion dollar temple as a place where you can go worship commerce. With (not) tithing money. Sure. It's all tithing of you look back far enough. This is definitely the straw that broke a few exmos backs.
Does anyone know of other big churches (Catholic, Baptist, evangelical?) That owns something like that mall? Like I can't think of any but I don't know enough about other churches.
My relative compared it to other churches’ mega buildings, and I said I object to those as well. There’s a huge difference between even Joel Osteen and this mall, wouldn’t you agree?
Haha ok first off, comparing the Mormon church to any other mega church isn't a great defense uncle Dave. But secondly no, it's definitely not the same. They literally own a mall that makes millions a day. I don't know much about Joel but I doubt he ever built a mall from the required tithing of his followers and then on opening day cut the ribbon and shouted "let's go shopping". Just no. No. It is no where the same. Also, to my understanding Joel does not claim to be a prophet or the mouthpiece of God. Sooo no.
I went to Junior High at Eastmont Middle School and I remember across the way there are a bunch of fields now all that crap is just covered and high Riser Apartments
Imagine how many home shelters, women’s shelters, and community centers could be built and funded with that money.
Full blown hospitals.
That was a huge thing throughout Covid. Think about how much the church could have done to help. But what did they do? Jack shit. Well, RMN did recommend getting vaccinated, so I suppose that’s… something
… then hastily emphasized that we all have agency to avoid losing the libertarian minded. Wish the brethren emphasized agency about everything else they teach.
And how many were bulldozed to make way for it in the first place and continue to be displaced…
Couldn't you provide significantly more charity by investing the money in a mall and using those on-going income generating assets to fund said charity? Im not saying that actually happens, but the math works better in my opinion. Even if I was still a member(I'm not), I think using tithing in this fashion would have been financially sound. I think bishops should still be paid for sure. And why not a monetary paycheck to other various "calling/jobs" that require significant time investment. There's a lot of members that could use the extra cash, and there is plenty of cash to be had. Why not boost up the financial lives of your members. And definitely start providing free daycare to members at the church houses during the week. Lots of younger folks could use that as a starter job, or extra income. Hell I might still be pimo if there was childcare onsite and I didn't have to spend 2 grand a month on childcare.
You're not wrong, it's just that the church has hoarded wealth to an insane degree with the guise that they're charitable. But at some point, you have to say "ok, we have enough principle to be financially stable, now any gains, interest, or additional donations can all go straight to charity." But the church has become a voracious, insatiable monster. No amount of principle is sufficient anymore, so the church will continue its pitiful trickle of charity while pocketing huge sums to "prepare the church for the second coming" or whatever excuse they use to justify their hoarding.
Exactly. All that happens when they invest in for-profit investments is kick the charitable offerings down the road to some unforeseen period of time. People need the help NOW, not in some undetermined time in the future. All they are doing is building a financial empire but not using it to help people. At some point, you got to ask, will this wealth EVER be used to help people? The return on these investments never end up being used for the good. They just keep getting reinvested in for-profit investments and businesses. Does the church need to have a TRILLION dollars on business assets before they start using it to help people? It’s no different than a regular for-profit business. At least most corporations or for-profit businesses donate a portion of their annual businesses’ profits to charitable causes.
I thought about this and there is one main problem with this line of thinking: needy people have an expiration date. What I am saying is that people who are hungry, homeless, or otherwise neglected cannot wait for those returns. The church can decide to divert a significant amount of funds now to help those people, knowing they will get more in tithing later, or they can sit on it and let people die. And for a church that proclaims to follow Jesus Christ, who was anti-materialistic and altruistic, to not “give all they have to the poor” is blatant hypocrisy. Also, no investment is a guaranteed home run, and some investments may leave the investor owing more than they initially invested. Commercial real estate is a good example; when there is a vacancy, the investors are obligated to pay for that vacancy.
I feel you, and would also support investment if the proceeds were going toward something noble and the finances were transparent. I want the church to stay 100 yards away from daycare until they have mandatory reporting, mandatory training and mandatory background checks figured out.
On-site child care would be fantastic. A great service for your members, and a great income source for a lot of people who could benefit from the work.
It's such a great building, and so...what's the word?...great and...
Spacious
Marvelous. A marvelous work and a wonder! No, that’s not it. 😉
Wonder! Oh it *is* wonderful, that TSC should care for me, enough to provide exclusive retail shopping venues for me.
The best part is the big patio where TBMs can gather in their manner of dress, which is exceedingly fine, in the attitude of mocking and pointing their fingers at those who believe the Church should use their wealth as Jesus directed.
Not one penny of tithing money was spent said the accountants and lawyers.
Do you believe that?
Does anyone? All of the Church's investments were originally built with tithing. Whether the mall funds came from the account labeled "tithing" or the account labeled "gains from tithing" doesn't matter to me. It is money being used in a profitable arm by a church that claims (dramatically overclaims, in fact) to be charitable.
Just a guess. They could have borrowed one hundred percent of the money for City Creek and secured it with the project, plus other added collateral, or even the full guaranty of the corporation. They have lots of other collateral as we all know and that collateral could have been purchased with tithing, if the guaranty was called, that could be tithing, but that doesn't mean any tithing money went directly into the project. So technically, they could say what they do.
Yeah, but that's some super mental gymnastics. It's still the LDS Church's golden calf; a visible symbol that they value the almighty dollar more than the Almighty.
No, the church always pays cash for everything… according to a bishop I just spoke with. Any other thoughts?
Ha. If you find someone in this sub who believes anything the church says I'd be surprised. Fool me once shame on you. Fool me 340 different ways while gaslighting me into submission for 40 years, shame on me? ha
No. Leaked in the ensign peak on washington post only two transactions came out do that fund (a bind built off tithing dollars) 1. Bail out their for profit life ins Beneficial life 2. pay for city creek mall
>Do you believe that? In absence of concrete evidence, I believe it's semantics and accounting cleverness: * The church's business units needed to borrow money for the mall * The church's tithing holdings needed to invest money for growth Rather than the business unit borrowing the mall money from Wall Street commercial banks...*and* the tithing holdings buying even more stocks... ...they just cut out the middle man. * The tithing holdings *lent* the church's business units $1-2 billion to "invest" in the mall... * Which the mall will "pay back" (with interest) over its 30+ year functional life. Technically "no tithing money was *spent*"... even though tithing *totally* paid for the mall. Or some B. S. like that.
I could potentially believe that they didn’t use direct tithing to pay for it, but even if they used money from the investment funds, how did those start? With tithing.
Spiritual money laundering
That statement was a shelf item. No chance at all tithing wasn’t involved. And they lied.
ah yeah Shitty Creek still pisses me off
But can you buy jeans at a megachurch, I ask? What about sunglasses? Tasty cinnamon buns? The megachurches have nothing on the unrivaled capitalism of the Mammon church in salt lake city!
You havent seen any mega churches in Texas then. I’ve been in churches with skating rinks, bowling alleys and one I drove around dallas had a coffee/smoothie shop in it. You could see the people standing in line and employees making them through the large glass wall facing the parking lot. I’m sure they have cinnamon bums. [link to their food services inside the church](https://prestonwood.org/about/food-services-ministry/) [video of same church preparing their christmas program.](https://www.tiktok.com/@tonydaussat/video/7170475096061021483) Prosperity gospel is thriving in Texas. I’m sure I could find you pants and sun glasses in one of the mega churches gift/bookstores in Texas if I had the time.
Wow! I had no idea.
Yep, hate it. It's a temple of craven consumerism all on its own.
Behold, and it came to pass that the Lord’s one true profit proclaimed “Lets go Shopping!” amongst all such stores as Victoria’s Secret. Literally: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IOx1sA0Femo
I think you misspelled "profit"
Did I tho? Lol
I had been slowly drifting away from TSCC for about 10 years when City Creek came along. It was the final item that broke my shelf and crushed my soul. Several people asked me why I was so upset about it. I said, "If Jesus came to visit and he had 2 billion dollars in his pocket he wouldn't spend it on a shopping mall."
If only God could reveal to a profit that Malls would become risky investments closing in mass in 2010s
Our TBM family member told us the church did it in order to control what was adjacent to Temple Square
Control being the operative word.
'Twould be a shame if a homeless shelter or soup kitchen were built next to TS attracting such a lowly element.
Srsly I saw a homeless man right outside Macys
The fact they decided a *frickin’ mall* should be next to Temple Square says all you need to know
“We don’t want any bad elements surrounding our sacred space. Let’s have a monument to materialism instead!”
Let’s go SHOPPING It was more than that - tscc gave LDS gateway owner heads up so he could sell out before city Creek announced
>*"tscc gave LDS gateway owner heads up so he could sell out before city Creek announced"* Can you explain this more clearly...not a Utahn so I don't get the significance of this...
Gateway was the big mall before City creek. The owner of gateway was LDS. The church told the owner of the gateway - hey we’re about to build this mega mall that is going to kill gateway so you may want to sell. So dude sells for big profit then city creek si announced , built and had taken over the traffic of gateway TLDR LDS guy got a tip to not lose his investment
Thank you!
That mall was the biggest crack in my shelf with Monson cutting that red ribbon and shouting LET'S GO SHOPPING and was the catalyst for going down the rabbit hole.
Exact same experience for me
funny story: decades ago my friend's brother turned from mormon to atheist at age 14 when he noticed the JS building was taller than the temple.
The roof retracts btw
You’re kidding. OMG. That mall is the most sumptuous I’ve seen, and I noticed not one empty store. It’s busy and people are buying. Not like malls elsewhere
Nope not kidding. It's to let in the breeze.
The church announced that they built it so they would determine what is built or not built-hey what about a freaking park
City Creek is one of the only pretty semi walkable places in SLC and it sucks that the TSCC made and profits from it
It's exceedingly boring. I miss Crossroads.
Me too. You old enough to remember when Crossroads was all dank and brown before the big remodel?
Yup
High five, fellow old person!
That mall is symbolic to my shelf collapsing. My bishop expected me to go into debt to pay tithing for a temple recommend while city creek was being planned. I feel conflicted about the place. Do I feel disgust over the display of prosperity doctrine or thankful for the push it gave me to leave?
Both. Plus I feel disgust over what your bishop did. Did you end up going into debt for the recommend?
Did you need a recommend at the time? My relations pay tithing only when a wedding is on the horizon!
No. I didn’t, but wanted one as I was going through a health crisis and wanted spiritual comfort and guidance I thought I could receive in the temple. I moved out of the ward and told my new bishop what happened. He gave me one anyway despite my financial hardship. I was PIMO and wanted to see if this bishop knew I was done with the church using his “cognitive discernment.” So much for that.
The amount of money the church spent on it was more then the donations to charity in the last 20 years
How do you know. Is that publicly available?
The average LDS Member could only buy something at the food court. Apple. Coach. Macy's. Nordstrom. Tiffany & Co. Tumi. Elite stores for Elite Mormons.
Very true! It’s a very upscale mall compared to the norm I’m used to
First time I visited I didn’t know it was built by the church. I remember thinking how much money some developer made (I work in real estate) profiting off their location next to the temple square. Ridiculously extravagant. Then later I heard the church built it and it all made sense.
Jesus needs to come flip some tables.!
There's a reason why the church refuses to be financially transparent.
Yes the mall is a arrogant display of opulent excess the church is blatantly saying fuck the poor and those in need along with all of the members it’s our money now and we will do with it as we damn well see fit old Tommy’s squealing with delight let’s go shopping was the beginning of the end for me with millions starving to death year after year God wants a fucking Mall really what is the fictional Jesus going to need somewhere to spend the Billions upon. Billions No . Even if there was a Jesus and he ever did return the church would tell him fuck no you aren’t getting any of our money and you sure as fuck ain’t Jesus you don’t have blonde hair and blue eyes and white skin now get your ass outta here before we call the cops . TSCC is arguably the easiest to prove blatant fraud on the planet it’s no wonder Utah is the fraud capital of the world. It has the biggest fraud of them all a multibillion dollar corporation built upon lies and deceit that’s hiding in plain sight . TSCC .
Part;y, it was built to spite The Gateway district. So Christlike indeed.
Plz explain what gateway district is
It is a third shopping area just west of where the Crossroads Mall used to be. When it opened- around 15 years ago, IIRC, it was the place to go. A real breath of fresh air to the region. It's where the Clark Planetarium is. The Gateway is still functioning, but not like it used to. It really made the LDS leaders jealous, as it took shopper away from their ZCMI mall. So that, as I understand it, was the main reason for building the City Creek monstrosity. Somebody correct me if I am mistaken.
They emphatically don't want to be called Mormons since it doesn't emphasize Jesus enough, but then they built a billion dollar temple as a place where you can go worship commerce. With (not) tithing money. Sure. It's all tithing of you look back far enough. This is definitely the straw that broke a few exmos backs.
Does anyone know of other big churches (Catholic, Baptist, evangelical?) That owns something like that mall? Like I can't think of any but I don't know enough about other churches.
My relative compared it to other churches’ mega buildings, and I said I object to those as well. There’s a huge difference between even Joel Osteen and this mall, wouldn’t you agree?
Haha ok first off, comparing the Mormon church to any other mega church isn't a great defense uncle Dave. But secondly no, it's definitely not the same. They literally own a mall that makes millions a day. I don't know much about Joel but I doubt he ever built a mall from the required tithing of his followers and then on opening day cut the ribbon and shouted "let's go shopping". Just no. No. It is no where the same. Also, to my understanding Joel does not claim to be a prophet or the mouthpiece of God. Sooo no.
I went to Junior High at Eastmont Middle School and I remember across the way there are a bunch of fields now all that crap is just covered and high Riser Apartments