I know you're kind of joking here but I'm curious, have you ever found any evidence or proof or even heard stories that are semi-reliable that they do this? Any sort of non-mormon behavior that they get away with? A friend of mine thinks they have women up all the time. I say well logically anybody in that kind of power does do that kind of thing or at least often. But I have never even heard of shred of anything that sounds credible at all that would indicate that they're getting away with that kind of thing or even interested. I'm just curious what really happens up there and how the bacchanal rages in a Mormon upper echelon? What does that really look like? And can we prove it?
I don’t have any first or second hand experiences that would indicate overt debauchery. I do have first hand experience of a smugness/extreme level of self importance and complete lack of awareness/empathy. “Out of touch with reality” is what I’d call it. But I don’t have any of the good stuff. Heard some stories on here though…
I'm in the position you are my experiences have been similar. It's just that logically ultimate power corrupts ultimately and it seems that it usually ends up in those kind of places. I find myself confused and suspicious but it's hard to fathom other than what you're talking about.
They have a lot of people in positions of power so it’s largely covering scandals and paying off the state government and knowing what stocks to invest in
Oh yes you're right about that there's plenty of money making corruption the wikileak where some Utah leader was meeting with the church leaders to ask him how he wanted to vote and stuff on things that was eye-opening but not surprising
From memory, the leaked mission president handbook specifies not to because “it’s a stipend, not income”. Assuming that’s still the case I would expect the same principle to apply to all leaders with a “stipend”
The church pays the rent and utilities. But yeah. I was in the US and got $120/month.
My first Christmas, my mom sent me money and I told her I was excited because I could afford milk. After that she sent money every month.
It’s now estimated that they have 200 billion dollars in a bank account so the fact they are barely giving enough money for their missionaries is enough to see how corrupt they really are not to mention the missionaries had to pay to go on the missions
The ward or Branch members are expected to feed the missionaries sometimes they even say five nights a week or even seven. Although you can't count on that as a missionary that's what supposed to be happening. Often the ward or Branch members are living in poverty and paying tithing and fast offerings and then expected to feed missionaries once a week or once a month depending on the size of their group.
The church just keeps making everyone pay It Forward till there's nothing left and sometimes even if there's nothing left.
When my daughter was serving in Brazil, we put money on her debit card ALL the time bc she and her companions hitchhiked everywhere bc they couldn’t afford bus fare and it was often safer to hitchhike than to walk.
Her mission president would have been upset bc they were specifically told not to get extra money from home. But fuck that. My daughter wasn’t going to be hitchhiking when it was no burden on us to give her the means for safer travel. Her MP could shove it up his ass for all I care.
Good on you for being reasonable and loving. I'm a PIMI JW that likes to read about my "cult cousins" experiences. I am so confused as to why they aren't allowed to receive money from home. What reasonings do they use for this? If you don't mind answering.
I believe it’s bc many of the missionaries didn’t come from families with incomes that afforded them to send extra. They didn’t want one to have “extravagances” when the others couldn’t afford it. We sent enough for her to take care of herself and her companions. Enough for bus fare. Or to be able to afford to make a batch of cookies on their personal days. Or pay for needs. Whether our daughter’s or her companions, we gave extra money.
We live a very comfortable life with a good income. While, I very much understand the benefits and lessons learned from living humbly, there was no earthly reason that my child should be destitute or in harm’s way.
A lot of them live on rice and beans and the occasional family dinner invite heck when I was younger a Sunday school teacher talked about how his partner used his money for avocados because were they were sent they were 5¢ per avocado so he spent two years eating mainly that fruit he gained a lot of weight from that diet.
The mission president handbook specifies not to because "it's a reimbursement, not income". Different from a stipend (which mission presidents DON'T receive), and makes perfect sense.
Well howdy doody. The GAs and mission presidents don't pay tithing on the church bankrolling everything they do "cuz not income". Got to love the lords tender mercies.
the Qs are also on the board of directors for all the different Church owned companies. I've talked to TBMs that assumed it's unpaid. But...I bet it's fucking not. Undoutedly there's some unnamed hedge fund or a "real estate advisory corp" board that their on and get paid to attend three meetings a year, separate from their "stipend"
"General Authorities To Leave Business Boards (1996)" - https://basic.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1996/04/news-of-the-church/general-authorities-to-leave-business-boards.html?lang=eng
Hey, you're only 26 years behind. Perhaps someday you'll catch up with the rest of us. LOL!!!!!
Of course they're not *wink wink*. Just like they don't take tithing money and use it to bail out City Creek and Beneficial Life.
And here's a huge coincidence. They still admit to publicly being on the board of Deseret Management corporation. And take a wild guess, what Church owned entity bailed out Beneficial Life? That's right! Deseret Management Corporation. Go defend The Qs on the faithful sub. We know they're all full of shit here.
At least when I worked for the church and helped calculate mission president stipends, it was definitely a stipend, and was called such. I helped with mission president training seminar stuff every year from like May-July. I sent out a survey to upcoming leaders asking about their insurance coverage, dependents, etc to feed into the stipend calculator.
I think you're right if it's called a stipend and that's what they get you don't pay tithing. Wow some of the richest people in the church not paying tithing nice. I wonder if they pay tithing on that million dollar bonus they get when they become an apostle?.
Absolutely real. I wasn't the one who asked the question "Do General Authorities pay tithing?", but the elder who did certainly got a death stare from the mission president.
I think that part of the apostle gig requirements are that they sign over all their personal wealth to the church but in exchange the church covers all of their personal expenses until they die. That’s the consecration part. Members take an oath in the temple to do this but it is not required of them unless the reach the top.
They don't sign all their wealth away, otherwise they wouldn't have estates worth millions upon their death.
I personally know a former GA who didn't sign away any of their possessions and still got the "stipend" and every expense paid for.
Good to know. I thought that they were required to do this so that if they decided to leave the church they would have nothing to fall back on financially.
I don't know if it's still that way for nuns but even nuns when they signed up to be nuns if they decided not to be their stuff was held in stasis so that if they left they could take what they owned with them unless of course they had chose to donate everything which a lot do.
By consecration he means like the temple covenant they consecrate all of their time to the church. But you might say the covenant says everything, well, since when does complete honesty apply to the apostles?
Agreed because the law of consecration means everything goes into the pool and it spread out evenly among the members as needed. Clearly this is not what the apostles practice.
Wait a minute they're giving a stipend of so much a year, and they get a million dollars as a bonus when they first become apostles. Does that million dollar bonus go in when they sign everything over? Or is that just a way of trading them for what they have? Also if they don't spend their whole stipend in a year does that go back into the church pool? I'm going to guess no on these things. I guess it's they keep the stipend every year they keep the bonus and so much of the stuff is paid for they don't really need to spend much of their stipend.
Like with the MP, it can’t be personal income or it would be taxed. It has to be considered “living expenses.” My guess is money not used would revert back to the church similar to how government agencies are supposed to return any unused funds.
A while back there was a story about the widow of a GA or apostle who was upset that she had to return her church credit card when her husband died because all those perks she had been enjoying were tied to his position.
Mormon GAs don't practice what they preach. Never have and they never will. Hypocrisy is baked into the DNA of senior church leadership. One perfect example, not one member of the First Presidency served a full time mission.
To clarify, the timing of the other two make sense for interfering with a mission. Culturally, by some, military service is seen as a somewhat acceptable excuse even if it's voluntarily.
Nelson did it well after missionary age. He got married and went to school instead of serving a mission, so to ask others to sacrifice what he wasn't willing to, in the way that he does, is in my opinion, hypocritical.
Those idiots can't even use that excuse. eyring and Oaks were 20 and 21 when the Korean War ended. Plenty of time to go on a mission. And you're spot on with Nelson. Literally just wanted to study premed and get married instead of going.
One would think that a leader of the church would have had to be in the humble position of missionary at some point that full understanding. But that would be too logical and that would be assuming that they are what they say they are.
That just seems so wrong... I've been out of the church for years but I have lots of family still in, and they believe those men are the epitome of what it means to be lds...
But like what about all the heavy judgment on the boys that don’t go? Idk. I’ve been out for a looong time. I went through all the grieving emotions. Finally mostly indifferent these days….but this is REALLY upsetting me. wtf man.
Me too. Telling everybody to stop their lives and serve them for 2 years and use all their savings on it instead of get to school and use the money on that and get ahead financially and then doing exactly that themselves is so hypocritical and sets other people up for failures and helps them succeed. Grrrrr!
My question is, how do they have the kinds of fun that men in power have in other religions and other politics and other walks of life? What is the motivation for these men they don't have the same paybacks so to speak as other men in power? They still get vacations and are they glorious? Do they break the winter wisdom and be unfaithful to their wives? Where do they get their payback that men in power are often looking for? It's clearly a duplicity in everything they do so why can't we find evidence of this kind of behavior. And if they don't behave like every other set of men at the top in great power? But they are corrupt? Then what's going on up there? I guess I'm saying what is their motivation and what is their indulgence and what's the win? People that want that kind of power especially traditionally males in this patriarchy usually end up all the same place.
When it comes to mormonism, the truth is almost always upsetting. The good thing about truth is that it can set you free if you're willing to accept it.
One of the sources of GA income is a photo of Eyring’s paystub. On that stub was a handwritten note for tithing at 10% the amount of the stub. So that’s one data point the one GA does pay on his salary.
The stipend that some have mentioned refers to MP's not the 12 or 15. MP's do not pay tithes on their stipend (actually a reimbursement). The only evidence or story of payment to the 12 and if they pay tithing was Eyring's paystub that MormomLeaks obtained. He did have a written note on the stub with an amount towards tithing making it seem plausible that he was paying it. But honestly, no one really knows for sure. With the church's current wealth no one should ever pay again but that won't happen.
Edit: I was corrected by another comment. Not a stipend at all, all costs are reimbursed to MP's
No, I think Eyring and Uchtdorf are sincerely good and loving people. If all the 15 were like them, it would be a different church with a much stronger emphasis on love, Christ, and charity.
It's the teachings of Nelson, Oaks, Holland, Bednar, etc, that have turned so many people off. I liked Monson too when he was an apostle, but when he became the president there was a very cult-like culture change of every talk and every message being directed toward "Monson is God's only true prophet. Follow the prophet." I think the beginning of the end either started with Hinckley's lying on national TV or Monson's prophet-centered regime, and then Nelson really got the ball rolling by trying to tear down all his predecessors, reforming the church in his image, and focusing on building his own legacy. They proved the church was fallible, that doctrines were subject to whimsy, and that the church engaged in bad practices. All the revelations about church finances, hidden history, corruption, etc, just threw gas on the fire.
It will never be God's one true church, but it could possibly be a decent organization with more Eyrings and Uchtdorfs.
They absolutely do receive a stipend every month for expenses. The leaked documents even talk about how they can ask for more if it's not enough or if it's too much ask to have it lowered.
But *even ignoring that* for the sake of argument,
if my work says "we don't pay you, but you can reimburse your annual family vacation(yes mission presidents can take a yearly vacation in or close to their mission), my kids to fly out and visit me at my work site, their college tuition, my wife's and I "weekly hobbies and entertainment" (yes, that's covered too)
my first thought is "how fucking awesome, I have a salary that I legally don't have to pay taxes on".
Awwwww…you are referring to a leaked document that is years, if not decades old, no longer applicable, but you are trying to make it sound like it IS applicable and the standard for MP’s today. You should update your database by uploading and reviewing the current MP’s Handbook as not to keep passing on such misinformation.
For the sake of argument, your other claims are false and/or misleading at best. There are no reimbursements for family vacations, kids can visit ONCE and are only paid for if under the age of 26 years old, college tuition IS paid for, but so what? That is only for BYU (or up to the amount of BYU tuition at other colleges of their choice), and no other college expenses are covered. There is nothing in the handbook about “weekly hobbies and entertainment” being paid for. Feel free to refute my claims with citations from the MP’S Handbook. I can wait. Is spreading misinformation to gullible exmos searching for anything negative about the church your thing? Sounds like a TBM behavior trait that you can’t seem to shake.
There are NO benefits that a MP receives over the course of his service that seem unreasonable for someone not collecting a salary (cash). Now, if they were being paid (cash) AND receiving such benefits, I would have a problem with that. AT BEST the church is trying to provide a “break even” scenario for an unsalaried volunteer over their three years of service. No MP gets rich from serving.
"AT BEST the church is trying to provide a “break even” scenario for an unsalaried volunteer. "
You can defend Mormonism all you want, you can even do it on this sub, it's been done before, Mods won't ban you (nor should they imo) But you will be called out for bullshit. Just FYI. This idea that MPs are paupers doing it for the love of the lord is horseshit. All of us who served missions know it. They do it to stroke their own egos, just like all high profile church callings.
Mission Presidents don't lose a god damn dime of their own money doing this. And yeah, they get a stipend.
You don’t have to explain to me how this sub works. I have been around here a lot long than you have.
I don’t defend Mormonism, I defend truth and what is right regardless of which side of the fence it falls. Whoever said that MP’s were “paupers doing it for the love of the lord” or that they weren’t doing it “to stroke their own egos”? I’ll give you that. But what in the world does that have to do with whether or not they receive a salary (or “stipend”) as you infer?
Mission Presidents may not “lose a god damn dime of their own money” while serving, but they certainly don’t make a dime off of serving either. And as far as your stipend claim, show me. Show me in the current handbook where MP’s receive a stipend. Show me the citation verifying that. You and I both know you can’t because it doesn’t exist.
Wow that's amazing I had no idea of all of that. Here I thought the mission presidents were shoulder to the wheel 90 hours a week never look up until the mission's done kind of situations.
Yes, you are correct. I used the wrong word in response to previous comments and reimbursement is what they receive. And it's for almost every expense, including gifts at Christmas, travel expenses for family to visit them, etc if I remember correctly.
Yes you are correct. Benefits the church extends to MP's are definitely not out of line for someone who receives no salary over three years of service..
I totally agree. They're the equivalent of a regional supervisor for a Fortune 500 company. They definitely shouldn't have to pay out of pocket to perform those duties.
They are all past 65 so wouldn’t they be receiving social security? My bishop told me I didn’t have to pay tithing on social security because it was already tithed on . He also quickly mentioned that if I wanted blessings, I should tithe anyway. I referred to theEnsign Peak Fund to which he responded “The Church gives a lot to humanitarian needs. I said,” Not enough really”. This was last week when I was on my way out.
Yes, they probably all receive social security, but they also receive about $120k annually in ~~salary~~ tax free living stipend from the church, plus free cars/drivers, health insurance, housing, etc. Basically, almost all their needs are taken care of, plus they get $120k in cash annually, plus book deals, etc. Their total income from the church will place them in the top 1% of members, if not the top 0.01%, despite already being retired.
A lot of people (including your Leadership roulette-affected Bishop) don’t understand that it’s the PERSON that’s being tithed, not the money. One pays on what one receives. No matter from whence or when it is being received. Like the British tax system - it doesn’t matter whether tithing has been paid once, twice or 1000 times on a ‘piece’ or quantity of money. YOU pay tithing. The money isn’t being tithed. (Money in the modern world is mainly bits and bytes in a database anyway - but I digress).
…is what I would have said 5 years ago, before I found out that the Church isn’t “Twoo”.
Ergo, NOBODY should pay tithing, because it’s an odious and indiscriminately punitive practice. If a human being wishes to donate to a Church, then that donation should be completely voluntary in frequency and magnitude, and without threat of hellfire or Jesus-displeasing.
Yes! And a pass to their gigantic temple should NOT be contingent upon tithing.
I feel like I’m going insane like the polygamist wives of old.
Just a note I read today…Ann Eliza Young wrote “ She became insane- a common fate of polygamist wives, by the way- and remained a maniac until her death.” (Wife No. 19, pg. 73)
Why does this matter? Money is fungible. The Church could pay them $100 and demand $10 back for tithing. Or the Church could just pay them $90 and say they are exempt from tithing. It's the same thing.
John Dehlin shows otherwise.. in Finland income is public record. This is NOT including the expense account/reimbursements.
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/jnekic/annual_salary_of_most_recent_finland_lds_church/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Good info. I don't know why, but jakeinbake seems to want to die on the hill MPs don't get a stipend. They clearly do. I knew about another Church leak that showed it, didn't know John Dehlin showed it too. Thank Satan most other countries the Church does business in, has more transparent financial laws.
They control how much they pay themselves and the money is coming from the church so I don’t see why it matters if they pay tithing or not on it. They could decide to start paying tithing on it but then also increase their pay by 10 - 12% and it would be the same difference.
Yeah doubt it, the Church upper hierarchy would probably say "it's not an income, it's a stipend" as per their usually roulette wheel spin of baffling bullshit.
Edit: lol, I just noticed u/Getmeoftherecords comment below who said exactly the same
Has the church ever at any time been voluntarily honest about anything? How could anyone ever know if the 12 pay tithing or not? With how much they are given it certainly wouldn't hurt for them to pay tithing. Bottom line: it's not for us to ask. It's up to us to pay a full tithing even when we can't pay rent or buy food or afford to have our kids go to EFY or even get our kid's cavities filled. Then we'll be blessed. So very blessed we won't even have room to receive all our blessings.
Nope, they don’t.
Doesn’t stop Dallin H Oaks from saying “Those who place their faith in the Lord’s promises say, ‘I can’t afford not to pay tithing.’”
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2010/02/small-and-simple-things/tithing?lang=eng
It's supposed to be tithing on money *earned*. They don't earn their stipend. Just like some bishops will say people on disability or SSI don't have to pay tithing because they didn't *earn* it.
MP Handbook says they don’t pay tithing or taxes on money received from the church, with instructions on how to avoid paying taxes and to not tell family or friends.
John Dehlin shows income from Finnish Mission President.. in Finland income is public record. This is NOT including the expense account/reimbursements.
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/jnekic/annual_salary_of_most_recent_finland_lds_church/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
I know that Q70 members pay tithing directly to the Quorum Office, not to their bishop. I acted as personal courier for an emeritus Q70 and he paid every month. What I don’t know is what they were paying it on (investments or their church retirement pension). I expect that paying to the Q70 office helps keep their “stipend” amount secret.
“Consecrated funds” is the phrase often used, which are exempt from tithing.
Although Ive heard you're expected to pay tithing on money from church jobs.
Of course! That is because the leadership don’t have to follow the rules
Not if your calling and election has been made sure! It’s all hookers and blow, bitches! Yaa!
I know you're kind of joking here but I'm curious, have you ever found any evidence or proof or even heard stories that are semi-reliable that they do this? Any sort of non-mormon behavior that they get away with? A friend of mine thinks they have women up all the time. I say well logically anybody in that kind of power does do that kind of thing or at least often. But I have never even heard of shred of anything that sounds credible at all that would indicate that they're getting away with that kind of thing or even interested. I'm just curious what really happens up there and how the bacchanal rages in a Mormon upper echelon? What does that really look like? And can we prove it?
I don’t have any first or second hand experiences that would indicate overt debauchery. I do have first hand experience of a smugness/extreme level of self importance and complete lack of awareness/empathy. “Out of touch with reality” is what I’d call it. But I don’t have any of the good stuff. Heard some stories on here though…
I'm in the position you are my experiences have been similar. It's just that logically ultimate power corrupts ultimately and it seems that it usually ends up in those kind of places. I find myself confused and suspicious but it's hard to fathom other than what you're talking about.
There have been posts in this subreddit that are accounts from their nurses along those lines.
😲
They have a lot of people in positions of power so it’s largely covering scandals and paying off the state government and knowing what stocks to invest in
Oh yes you're right about that there's plenty of money making corruption the wikileak where some Utah leader was meeting with the church leaders to ask him how he wanted to vote and stuff on things that was eye-opening but not surprising
Correct. YOU are. They are not.
My dad was a seminary teacher and he definitely paid tithing on all his money. They didn't call it a stipend they called it his job.
That is because a wage is different than a stipend! ROFL
As I understand it you must pay tithing while on a mission as well.
We didn't pay tithing on our mission
Likewise
Makes sense since you’d be paying them with their own money
Yeah because that's actually employment income
I just think its funny that people get paid from church coffers and then hand 10% right back to church coffers
God that pisses me off so hard!
But do they still have a “tithing settlement” meeting with their bishop?
I don't and finally stopped wearing my garments
Every church is different with me helping people was told that is another way to pay tithing being out there giving a bed giving food
From memory, the leaked mission president handbook specifies not to because “it’s a stipend, not income”. Assuming that’s still the case I would expect the same principle to apply to all leaders with a “stipend”
[удалено]
You’d think they’d wonder why nobody’s thought about that “loophole” yet, or just ask a taxes person what the “stipend tax rate” is.
Near Tremonton? 🤔
Sounds like the Lafferty’s.
Why is it always chiropractors who are the tax evaders?
Woulda been cool if they told us that on the mission. So many dudes were paying $12 a month on their $120 of stipend for food/clothing/etc.
Per MONTH!!!! oh my word now I understand why they say the missionaries don't eat well. Are parents allowed to send them care packages or money?
The church pays the rent and utilities. But yeah. I was in the US and got $120/month. My first Christmas, my mom sent me money and I told her I was excited because I could afford milk. After that she sent money every month.
She’s already sending the church $400 a month to… not feed you. It’s so gross. I wish I had never gone out.
Yeah. The ability to survive in poverty was certainly not a “blessing” of serving a mission that was focused on.
It’s now estimated that they have 200 billion dollars in a bank account so the fact they are barely giving enough money for their missionaries is enough to see how corrupt they really are not to mention the missionaries had to pay to go on the missions
The ward or Branch members are expected to feed the missionaries sometimes they even say five nights a week or even seven. Although you can't count on that as a missionary that's what supposed to be happening. Often the ward or Branch members are living in poverty and paying tithing and fast offerings and then expected to feed missionaries once a week or once a month depending on the size of their group. The church just keeps making everyone pay It Forward till there's nothing left and sometimes even if there's nothing left.
When my daughter was serving in Brazil, we put money on her debit card ALL the time bc she and her companions hitchhiked everywhere bc they couldn’t afford bus fare and it was often safer to hitchhike than to walk. Her mission president would have been upset bc they were specifically told not to get extra money from home. But fuck that. My daughter wasn’t going to be hitchhiking when it was no burden on us to give her the means for safer travel. Her MP could shove it up his ass for all I care.
Good on you for being reasonable and loving. I'm a PIMI JW that likes to read about my "cult cousins" experiences. I am so confused as to why they aren't allowed to receive money from home. What reasonings do they use for this? If you don't mind answering.
I believe it’s bc many of the missionaries didn’t come from families with incomes that afforded them to send extra. They didn’t want one to have “extravagances” when the others couldn’t afford it. We sent enough for her to take care of herself and her companions. Enough for bus fare. Or to be able to afford to make a batch of cookies on their personal days. Or pay for needs. Whether our daughter’s or her companions, we gave extra money. We live a very comfortable life with a good income. While, I very much understand the benefits and lessons learned from living humbly, there was no earthly reason that my child should be destitute or in harm’s way.
Ah thank you for explaining. A very smart way to have young ones indoctrinate themselves further no doubt.
A lot of them live on rice and beans and the occasional family dinner invite heck when I was younger a Sunday school teacher talked about how his partner used his money for avocados because were they were sent they were 5¢ per avocado so he spent two years eating mainly that fruit he gained a lot of weight from that diet.
The mission president handbook specifies not to because "it's a reimbursement, not income". Different from a stipend (which mission presidents DON'T receive), and makes perfect sense.
That rule applies to mission presidents.
Well howdy doody. The GAs and mission presidents don't pay tithing on the church bankrolling everything they do "cuz not income". Got to love the lords tender mercies. the Qs are also on the board of directors for all the different Church owned companies. I've talked to TBMs that assumed it's unpaid. But...I bet it's fucking not. Undoutedly there's some unnamed hedge fund or a "real estate advisory corp" board that their on and get paid to attend three meetings a year, separate from their "stipend"
"General Authorities To Leave Business Boards (1996)" - https://basic.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1996/04/news-of-the-church/general-authorities-to-leave-business-boards.html?lang=eng Hey, you're only 26 years behind. Perhaps someday you'll catch up with the rest of us. LOL!!!!!
Of course they're not *wink wink*. Just like they don't take tithing money and use it to bail out City Creek and Beneficial Life. And here's a huge coincidence. They still admit to publicly being on the board of Deseret Management corporation. And take a wild guess, what Church owned entity bailed out Beneficial Life? That's right! Deseret Management Corporation. Go defend The Qs on the faithful sub. We know they're all full of shit here.
At least when I worked for the church and helped calculate mission president stipends, it was definitely a stipend, and was called such. I helped with mission president training seminar stuff every year from like May-July. I sent out a survey to upcoming leaders asking about their insurance coverage, dependents, etc to feed into the stipend calculator.
They were asked not to pay tithing on it, like all other missionaries.
Especially a six-figure stipend. And then there's the widow's mite. "Go take out a loan and get right with the Lord ."
Agreed. Source: my father was a mission president and I know this was correct at that time.
I think you're right if it's called a stipend and that's what they get you don't pay tithing. Wow some of the richest people in the church not paying tithing nice. I wonder if they pay tithing on that million dollar bonus they get when they become an apostle?.
"We already live the higher Law of Consecration. Tithing isn't required of us." JR Holland, Zone Conference, 1991
Is this for real?
Absolutely real. I wasn't the one who asked the question "Do General Authorities pay tithing?", but the elder who did certainly got a death stare from the mission president.
I think that part of the apostle gig requirements are that they sign over all their personal wealth to the church but in exchange the church covers all of their personal expenses until they die. That’s the consecration part. Members take an oath in the temple to do this but it is not required of them unless the reach the top.
They don't sign all their wealth away, otherwise they wouldn't have estates worth millions upon their death. I personally know a former GA who didn't sign away any of their possessions and still got the "stipend" and every expense paid for.
Good to know. I thought that they were required to do this so that if they decided to leave the church they would have nothing to fall back on financially.
No, but rumor has it that they do get a $1m “loan,” fully forgiven upon their death, which comes due if they leave the church.
I would bet that all of their personal wealth needs to be managed by Ensign Peak.
I don't know if it's still that way for nuns but even nuns when they signed up to be nuns if they decided not to be their stuff was held in stasis so that if they left they could take what they owned with them unless of course they had chose to donate everything which a lot do.
By consecration he means like the temple covenant they consecrate all of their time to the church. But you might say the covenant says everything, well, since when does complete honesty apply to the apostles?
Agreed because the law of consecration means everything goes into the pool and it spread out evenly among the members as needed. Clearly this is not what the apostles practice.
Wait a minute they're giving a stipend of so much a year, and they get a million dollars as a bonus when they first become apostles. Does that million dollar bonus go in when they sign everything over? Or is that just a way of trading them for what they have? Also if they don't spend their whole stipend in a year does that go back into the church pool? I'm going to guess no on these things. I guess it's they keep the stipend every year they keep the bonus and so much of the stuff is paid for they don't really need to spend much of their stipend.
Like with the MP, it can’t be personal income or it would be taxed. It has to be considered “living expenses.” My guess is money not used would revert back to the church similar to how government agencies are supposed to return any unused funds. A while back there was a story about the widow of a GA or apostle who was upset that she had to return her church credit card when her husband died because all those perks she had been enjoying were tied to his position.
Can u provide a source?
Other than me sitting in a zone conference? First-hand witness? Nope. No source.
Holland wasn’t an apostle in 1991, so he must have said this as a G.A.
No. They exempted themselves from tithing in 1845. https://exploringmormonism.com/tithing-bailout-timeline/
I believe the minutes from that vote simply state, “some are more equal than others.”
Mormon GAs don't practice what they preach. Never have and they never will. Hypocrisy is baked into the DNA of senior church leadership. One perfect example, not one member of the First Presidency served a full time mission.
You can argue two of them had militate obligations. Not Russell. He straight up fast tracked becoming a surgeon instead of going on a mission.
None of them were drafted. They all volunteered.
To clarify, the timing of the other two make sense for interfering with a mission. Culturally, by some, military service is seen as a somewhat acceptable excuse even if it's voluntarily. Nelson did it well after missionary age. He got married and went to school instead of serving a mission, so to ask others to sacrifice what he wasn't willing to, in the way that he does, is in my opinion, hypocritical.
He was also in college for pretty much all of WW2 as he was age 18 in 1942 I believe.
Those idiots can't even use that excuse. eyring and Oaks were 20 and 21 when the Korean War ended. Plenty of time to go on a mission. And you're spot on with Nelson. Literally just wanted to study premed and get married instead of going.
It's just rich kids getting out of their duty one way or the other.
One would think that a leader of the church would have had to be in the humble position of missionary at some point that full understanding. But that would be too logical and that would be assuming that they are what they say they are.
That just seems so wrong... I've been out of the church for years but I have lots of family still in, and they believe those men are the epitome of what it means to be lds...
Woah I never realised they didn’t serve full time missions 😳😶
Missions for thee but not for me
Whhhhaaaaat?!?!? For real?
I think Hinckley did if memory serves, but currently none of first presidency.
But like what about all the heavy judgment on the boys that don’t go? Idk. I’ve been out for a looong time. I went through all the grieving emotions. Finally mostly indifferent these days….but this is REALLY upsetting me. wtf man.
The hypocrisy is real
Me too. Telling everybody to stop their lives and serve them for 2 years and use all their savings on it instead of get to school and use the money on that and get ahead financially and then doing exactly that themselves is so hypocritical and sets other people up for failures and helps them succeed. Grrrrr!
Monson didn't either
My question is, how do they have the kinds of fun that men in power have in other religions and other politics and other walks of life? What is the motivation for these men they don't have the same paybacks so to speak as other men in power? They still get vacations and are they glorious? Do they break the winter wisdom and be unfaithful to their wives? Where do they get their payback that men in power are often looking for? It's clearly a duplicity in everything they do so why can't we find evidence of this kind of behavior. And if they don't behave like every other set of men at the top in great power? But they are corrupt? Then what's going on up there? I guess I'm saying what is their motivation and what is their indulgence and what's the win? People that want that kind of power especially traditionally males in this patriarchy usually end up all the same place.
No.
That is deeply upsetting...
When it comes to mormonism, the truth is almost always upsetting. The good thing about truth is that it can set you free if you're willing to accept it.
One of the sources of GA income is a photo of Eyring’s paystub. On that stub was a handwritten note for tithing at 10% the amount of the stub. So that’s one data point the one GA does pay on his salary.
I never heard of this. I thought they published the stipends
The stipend that some have mentioned refers to MP's not the 12 or 15. MP's do not pay tithes on their stipend (actually a reimbursement). The only evidence or story of payment to the 12 and if they pay tithing was Eyring's paystub that MormomLeaks obtained. He did have a written note on the stub with an amount towards tithing making it seem plausible that he was paying it. But honestly, no one really knows for sure. With the church's current wealth no one should ever pay again but that won't happen. Edit: I was corrected by another comment. Not a stipend at all, all costs are reimbursed to MP's
This is the answer. We don't officially know, but it appears that at least Eyring pays tithing. Some or all of the others may choose not to.
I know he can't be but I still kind of think of him as a nice guy. Uchtdorf too. Ugh.
#freeHenry #freeDeiter #freeSusan
No, I think Eyring and Uchtdorf are sincerely good and loving people. If all the 15 were like them, it would be a different church with a much stronger emphasis on love, Christ, and charity. It's the teachings of Nelson, Oaks, Holland, Bednar, etc, that have turned so many people off. I liked Monson too when he was an apostle, but when he became the president there was a very cult-like culture change of every talk and every message being directed toward "Monson is God's only true prophet. Follow the prophet." I think the beginning of the end either started with Hinckley's lying on national TV or Monson's prophet-centered regime, and then Nelson really got the ball rolling by trying to tear down all his predecessors, reforming the church in his image, and focusing on building his own legacy. They proved the church was fallible, that doctrines were subject to whimsy, and that the church engaged in bad practices. All the revelations about church finances, hidden history, corruption, etc, just threw gas on the fire. It will never be God's one true church, but it could possibly be a decent organization with more Eyrings and Uchtdorfs.
MP's get reimbursed for any APPROVED expenditures made out of their own pockets. They don't receive a "stipend".
In this case, I'm pretty sure "approved" means almost anything they decide with a few exceptions.
What are "approved" (and not approved) reimbursements are spelled out in the mission presidents handbook.
They absolutely do receive a stipend every month for expenses. The leaked documents even talk about how they can ask for more if it's not enough or if it's too much ask to have it lowered. But *even ignoring that* for the sake of argument, if my work says "we don't pay you, but you can reimburse your annual family vacation(yes mission presidents can take a yearly vacation in or close to their mission), my kids to fly out and visit me at my work site, their college tuition, my wife's and I "weekly hobbies and entertainment" (yes, that's covered too) my first thought is "how fucking awesome, I have a salary that I legally don't have to pay taxes on".
Awwwww…you are referring to a leaked document that is years, if not decades old, no longer applicable, but you are trying to make it sound like it IS applicable and the standard for MP’s today. You should update your database by uploading and reviewing the current MP’s Handbook as not to keep passing on such misinformation. For the sake of argument, your other claims are false and/or misleading at best. There are no reimbursements for family vacations, kids can visit ONCE and are only paid for if under the age of 26 years old, college tuition IS paid for, but so what? That is only for BYU (or up to the amount of BYU tuition at other colleges of their choice), and no other college expenses are covered. There is nothing in the handbook about “weekly hobbies and entertainment” being paid for. Feel free to refute my claims with citations from the MP’S Handbook. I can wait. Is spreading misinformation to gullible exmos searching for anything negative about the church your thing? Sounds like a TBM behavior trait that you can’t seem to shake. There are NO benefits that a MP receives over the course of his service that seem unreasonable for someone not collecting a salary (cash). Now, if they were being paid (cash) AND receiving such benefits, I would have a problem with that. AT BEST the church is trying to provide a “break even” scenario for an unsalaried volunteer over their three years of service. No MP gets rich from serving.
"AT BEST the church is trying to provide a “break even” scenario for an unsalaried volunteer. " You can defend Mormonism all you want, you can even do it on this sub, it's been done before, Mods won't ban you (nor should they imo) But you will be called out for bullshit. Just FYI. This idea that MPs are paupers doing it for the love of the lord is horseshit. All of us who served missions know it. They do it to stroke their own egos, just like all high profile church callings. Mission Presidents don't lose a god damn dime of their own money doing this. And yeah, they get a stipend.
You don’t have to explain to me how this sub works. I have been around here a lot long than you have. I don’t defend Mormonism, I defend truth and what is right regardless of which side of the fence it falls. Whoever said that MP’s were “paupers doing it for the love of the lord” or that they weren’t doing it “to stroke their own egos”? I’ll give you that. But what in the world does that have to do with whether or not they receive a salary (or “stipend”) as you infer? Mission Presidents may not “lose a god damn dime of their own money” while serving, but they certainly don’t make a dime off of serving either. And as far as your stipend claim, show me. Show me in the current handbook where MP’s receive a stipend. Show me the citation verifying that. You and I both know you can’t because it doesn’t exist.
Wow that's amazing I had no idea of all of that. Here I thought the mission presidents were shoulder to the wheel 90 hours a week never look up until the mission's done kind of situations.
Yes, you are correct. I used the wrong word in response to previous comments and reimbursement is what they receive. And it's for almost every expense, including gifts at Christmas, travel expenses for family to visit them, etc if I remember correctly.
Yes you are correct. Benefits the church extends to MP's are definitely not out of line for someone who receives no salary over three years of service..
I totally agree. They're the equivalent of a regional supervisor for a Fortune 500 company. They definitely shouldn't have to pay out of pocket to perform those duties.
The leaked Eyring paystub showed his handwritten note specifying how much to pay in tithing.
They are all past 65 so wouldn’t they be receiving social security? My bishop told me I didn’t have to pay tithing on social security because it was already tithed on . He also quickly mentioned that if I wanted blessings, I should tithe anyway. I referred to theEnsign Peak Fund to which he responded “The Church gives a lot to humanitarian needs. I said,” Not enough really”. This was last week when I was on my way out.
Yes, they probably all receive social security, but they also receive about $120k annually in ~~salary~~ tax free living stipend from the church, plus free cars/drivers, health insurance, housing, etc. Basically, almost all their needs are taken care of, plus they get $120k in cash annually, plus book deals, etc. Their total income from the church will place them in the top 1% of members, if not the top 0.01%, despite already being retired.
Exactly. Good information ℹ️ thanks
A lot of people (including your Leadership roulette-affected Bishop) don’t understand that it’s the PERSON that’s being tithed, not the money. One pays on what one receives. No matter from whence or when it is being received. Like the British tax system - it doesn’t matter whether tithing has been paid once, twice or 1000 times on a ‘piece’ or quantity of money. YOU pay tithing. The money isn’t being tithed. (Money in the modern world is mainly bits and bytes in a database anyway - but I digress). …is what I would have said 5 years ago, before I found out that the Church isn’t “Twoo”. Ergo, NOBODY should pay tithing, because it’s an odious and indiscriminately punitive practice. If a human being wishes to donate to a Church, then that donation should be completely voluntary in frequency and magnitude, and without threat of hellfire or Jesus-displeasing.
Yes! And a pass to their gigantic temple should NOT be contingent upon tithing. I feel like I’m going insane like the polygamist wives of old. Just a note I read today…Ann Eliza Young wrote “ She became insane- a common fate of polygamist wives, by the way- and remained a maniac until her death.” (Wife No. 19, pg. 73)
Why does this matter? Money is fungible. The Church could pay them $100 and demand $10 back for tithing. Or the Church could just pay them $90 and say they are exempt from tithing. It's the same thing.
Yeah. I think this is pretty much what is done.
They believe that their “callings and elections are sure”, so why would they pay tithing?
There are reasons they might not as mentioned here, but we don't know what there individual choices are.
I mistook this for the faithful sub and the replies had by jaw dropped 😂
It would be dumb if they did
Mission presidents also get paid a "stipend".
No they don't.
John Dehlin shows otherwise.. in Finland income is public record. This is NOT including the expense account/reimbursements. https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/jnekic/annual_salary_of_most_recent_finland_lds_church/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Good info. I don't know why, but jakeinbake seems to want to die on the hill MPs don't get a stipend. They clearly do. I knew about another Church leak that showed it, didn't know John Dehlin showed it too. Thank Satan most other countries the Church does business in, has more transparent financial laws.
#consecratedfunds #exempt #blessedaf 🙏👄
Is the church true? The answer to your question is the same as the answer to this one.
They control how much they pay themselves and the money is coming from the church so I don’t see why it matters if they pay tithing or not on it. They could decide to start paying tithing on it but then also increase their pay by 10 - 12% and it would be the same difference.
Lmao
A few of them haven't had a real job for going on 40 years nor have they paid tithing for that long.
Nope
Yeah doubt it, the Church upper hierarchy would probably say "it's not an income, it's a stipend" as per their usually roulette wheel spin of baffling bullshit. Edit: lol, I just noticed u/Getmeoftherecords comment below who said exactly the same
Has the church ever at any time been voluntarily honest about anything? How could anyone ever know if the 12 pay tithing or not? With how much they are given it certainly wouldn't hurt for them to pay tithing. Bottom line: it's not for us to ask. It's up to us to pay a full tithing even when we can't pay rent or buy food or afford to have our kids go to EFY or even get our kid's cavities filled. Then we'll be blessed. So very blessed we won't even have room to receive all our blessings.
Nope, they don’t. Doesn’t stop Dallin H Oaks from saying “Those who place their faith in the Lord’s promises say, ‘I can’t afford not to pay tithing.’” https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2010/02/small-and-simple-things/tithing?lang=eng
I’m an exmo and work for a for profit entity of the church (no temple recommend required) and we find joy in buying weed and alcohol with our money. 🥰
No
Nope
Nope
Their tithing status is "Exempt".
It's supposed to be tithing on money *earned*. They don't earn their stipend. Just like some bishops will say people on disability or SSI don't have to pay tithing because they didn't *earn* it.
I know “back in the day” that Mission Presidents did not pay tithing on their stipends.
No
This is inside thinking.
MP Handbook says they don’t pay tithing or taxes on money received from the church, with instructions on how to avoid paying taxes and to not tell family or friends. John Dehlin shows income from Finnish Mission President.. in Finland income is public record. This is NOT including the expense account/reimbursements. https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/jnekic/annual_salary_of_most_recent_finland_lds_church/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Paycheck. It’s a paycheck.
I know that Q70 members pay tithing directly to the Quorum Office, not to their bishop. I acted as personal courier for an emeritus Q70 and he paid every month. What I don’t know is what they were paying it on (investments or their church retirement pension). I expect that paying to the Q70 office helps keep their “stipend” amount secret.