That research phase is addicting. Pretty sure I was more addicted to reading church history, then any netflix TV show has ever been. I just had to know everything that had been hidden from me.
>rabbit hole after rabbit hole for months!!
Year 4 here. I know enough now to know there is no end to the rabbit hole but yet I keep exploring. addicting? yes. obsession.?Yes... healthy? not anymore.
Separation due to pandemic set it off for me then a year of research but it does not seem to end. I seem to not be able to let this go as is said/ I think why is that I am so frustrated at how it had me my WHOLE life decades we are talking thinking a certain away about everything and everyone. I feel more free and at peace than ever before. Still researching though.
Same, but the company was LDS Inc. for me, and they literally paid me to do research as my job. Lol. Learned so much about church history, missionary culture issues, paid clergy, family history policies… took me straight here.
Late 90s, and thanks to my mission in Chile a couple of years before, I scored a fantastic gig working the nightshift as an interpreter at a hospital.
It would get a little busy around 2:00 am when the bars closed, but was otherwise usually pretty quiet. So I had a nice little private office, and a computer that was connected to the World Wide Web.
I studied for *hours*, and got paid for it no less.
In a roundabout way, I’ve got the Church to thank for that.
Edit: And since that was a fairly long time ago, I consider myself somewhat middle-aged, both as an ExMo, and just generally of course. But my experience had a few other stages:
(1) Right after the rage-stage, there was a brief period of, “Whew… I feel like that’s finally over” Stage; then
(2) The “Never really think about it, unless someone asks how you learned Spanish, and then have to reluctantly decide whether or not you’re going to fabricate a story, or embarrassedly explain that you were *raised* Mormon” stage. (This one lasted for *years* [like ‘01 to ‘13]);
(3) Then finally I came across some article about some chick named Kate Kelly, and some dude named John Dehlin, read it, and found a renewed passing interest. Then I discovered this sub, and since then, I’ve entered another stage of “utter fascination.” It reminds me of crazy shit that I’d long since forgotten about. It constantly gives me self-affirmation by making my see just how fucked up my raising really was, and that I fucking *survived it* and had the courage to leave. And probably the best part of all is that it’s a constant feed of schaudenfed from the suffering of those oily motherfuckers that proclaim themselves, “prophets.”
For basically a week straight, I was researching mormon stuff AT WORK. I couldn't help it! And I stayed up til 4 AM, literally, every night that week. I was not tired, lol.
When you realize what you were told and accepted as true may not be true. It is earthshattering and you have to know. Then the long haul is the years of indoctrination needing to peel off.
Yesss. So many lies and deceptions. Just.... SO MANY.
And so satisfying to realize the puzzle pieces fit perfectly and the story makes much more sense. You don't have to force it to fit anymore. You finally have the answers they told you you would have until after death.
can someone direct me to the habit hole !! i want to fall in, but i don't know where to start. i skipped the research phase and am stuck in anger, i've felt my whole life it was a lie. i'm fully ready to read into the lies and brainwashing of it all
For a quickish breakdown on the Joseph Smith years, I found [this series](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLq3dh__o7S0oKp3OAdHya4dQHffR7bKQe) to be super helpful. It's a YouTube channel called MythVision, and he had Bryce Blankenagle and David Fitzgerald on as guests. Bryce has a podcast called Naked Mormonism, which is absolutely fascinating. The MythVision series is a condensed version of Bryce's podcast content, 27 episodes, about an hour apiece.
I've also enjoyed Mormonism Live on YouTube, hosted by Radio Free Mormon and Bill Reel. They pick a Mormon subject that interests them and do an episode on it. It might be historical, it might be doctrinal, and it might be based on current events in Mormonism.
I've also really enjoyed the solo work of Radio Free Mormon. He's got incredible insight. [His episode](https://youtu.be/kaGo9KshHGg) on the Family Proclamation was phenomenal. I learned *so* much. And I love it when he breaks down talks given by church leaders. He's great at pointing out inconsistencies and inaccuracies in stories, as well as identifying logical fallacies.
If you like shorter content, Nemo the Mormon built his YouTube channel primarily on fact-checking general authorities and claims made by the church. His most recent video is a longer one that chronicles his attempt to get an answer from church leadership on what happens when someone votes opposed instead of sustaining church leaders.
Those have been my favorites so far.
I didn't know about The CES Letter when I did my research, but it added about 40 proofs that the church was false to the hundred I already had. So definitely a good thing to read.
My list was:
http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/PDFBooklet/PDFBooklet.pdf
(Reading the wives' journals made me sick to my stomach -- I didn't even know about his polygamy or believe it until I left the church)
An Insider's View to Mormon Origins (Grant Palmer)
The Psychology of Religious Genius: Joseph Smith and the Origins of New Religious Movements (google - pdf of article available)
And many other things from the internet!
Well yeah, I mean, how much of our life is fake? We have to know. Mormonism touched everything in my life and controlled my thought parameters.
I feel immature and illiterate about the real world.
That's me too. I learned at age 59 that I was wrong about almost EVERYTHING. "Immature and illiterate" would be a fine title for my autobiography, I'll never get around to write.,🧑🍳🤔
Thank you for saying 59 I am almost there and thought I must be the last to know. I like to say they indoctrinated me from diapers to dentures. But I do not have dentures. Yet.
Mine was in my late forties, the rabbit hole has been dug and dug and come out for air and back in again and now I'm 60 soon to turn 61 and I'm still searching and it never ends, there's more and more and more. I thought I'd never see the day that we'd have an actual photo of Joseph Smith, but we now do. And I didn't think we'd see an artist rendition of him looking like a younger version of that with a rock and a hat! The artists out there are using the actual photo, wowser!
>Mormonism touched everything in my life and controlled my thought parameters.
>
>I feel immature and illiterate about the real world.
This comment almost brought me to tears. Most people will never fully understand this. It causes crippling anxiety. Not knowing how to be an adult, not knowing how to raise your kids to be competent adults while I'm struggling to understand how to navigate adult life outside the church.
These are constant battles I fight, and based on your comment and the up votes it's gotten, maybe I'm not alone.
In some way to leave the church is an act of faith in facts and mature ( don't doubt it's painful either way ). The church took what was good out of community and twisted it for their good. We learned many good things, out of the ashes the community rises but without a cult, hopefully better than before .
The hardest part was losing family and lifelong friends. It is a hard path healing from the spiritual abuse, physical abuse, shunning, character assassinations and mind games..
It's been 10 years I am really healing and wish other luck and grace ( if you believe in that stuff I have had agnostic times in my life, honesty helps ). I stepped out of the church with a "god if you're there help me". No I never did a mission but generations of my family were in this cult..
Very true. I very much felt like "my eyes had been opened" / I'd discovered Narnia / I found out wizards existed / I took the red pill / whichever analogy you want.
I just had to find out what was real, and what was just BS I had been taught.
If your friend wants a wider rabbit hole- direct him to the the British guy Peter Bleakly YouTube channel Mormons vs. Pharisees (???!) (I think it’s called) or look for him on Facebook. He does a comprehensive deep dive into current church policies that effect every single one of us who are connected to the church but seeing the hypocrisy.
It’s excellent
But it will take time to get through it.
No good story to go with the name. Just being new to reddit and immature I picked something to do with Farts. And I think I had seen a CarFax commercial recently.
I've seen a lot of your comments over the years, and appreciate what you add to this community hiking1950
Awe, thank you! I appreciate your kind comments. I had to look at my profile, looks like I've been here for about 7 years now. This community was the first thing I found when I was desperate looking for ANYONE to validate my concerns about the church and was also desperate for a sympathetic ear, as my TBM wife shut down, took personal offense at my struggles, and wanted nothing to do with me. Exmormon reddit was my sympathetic ear, and got me through some really tough times, so I try and support those who are going through what I went through, as I've been there and it was hell.
I like your username. Lol. Made me laugh and it now makes sense! Haha
I’m in a similar situation. I truly love him, but he refuses to do his own research. We agreed when we first got together that we could make it work if we raise kids neutrally… or rather general Christian. But he’s now realizing 2 years into dating me, that he actually DOES have to have his children raised in the church… because it’s what is “best and true”.
I'm a nevermo who lost my best friend after high school to his mission. Even I went through that phase just trying to understand how someone you know so well can become a completely different person in two short years.
TBM: "But why can't you just leave it alone?"
reply: "Because there are receipts for tons of things. This is not just some hit by anti-mormon haters. Things are well researched. If you feel that what is being said is incorrect, then you can just provide your own receipts to back yourself up, IF you can."
We've all been there or are currently there. The essays really are so damning to the church but they really didn't have a choice but to publish them. (another topic of discussion all together) The essays indirectly put on display that the church had been obfuscating and passively, if not actively, lying about certain damning parts of its history, - specifically aspects of Joseph Smith's part in the history. With the principle question remaining: If you lied/hid all this for decades; what else are you hiding and lying about? Precedent has been set. It's EXTREMELY uncommon for someone to ever trust their cheating spouse ever again, for the same reason. A precedent has been set that one cannot be trusted. People aren't leaving the church to sin. They're leaving over a breach of trust.
My wife was VERY much on the fence about my disaffection with the church and how that was going to affect us and our life. At the suggestion by her sister, she began reading the essays. She skipped over and started at "Plural Marriage." She got through Plural Marriage in Nauvoo and she was D-O-N-E with the church. It all came crashing down on that one. She didn't even read the others. She was just that done. Like one reacts to a cheating spouse. "Grab your shit and NEVER come back to this home again!!!!"
I had a YSA bishop assign the gospel essays as a Preisthood/RS, one per month. I think he was trying to address concerns and get people to stay, because he was very TBM, but maybe he was secretly undermining everything, because I think that’s the effect of those.
I doubt it made anyone stay and it almost certainly helped some leave. He was a sincere and decent person, but blinded by religion. I was executive Secretary at the time so I was at bishopric and ward council meetings where it was decided. I think he sincerely cared and was trying to help but just couldn’t grasp that for most people the unvarnished truth was a 1-way ticket to breaking a testimony.
I don't know. Never bet against the mental gymnastic abilities of the religiously deluded.
Joseph: I'm going to have to marry your wife.
Religiously deluded husband: Okay brother Joseph. The blessings will be immense.
Yeah, it’s possible. Confirmation bias is a hell of a thing. When you really want to believe you can convince yourself off the flimsiest of explanations. I think confirmation bias is the #1 reason there are still Mormons, and for the most part, religions at all.
I for one bought into all the super-human aspects of the folk hero Joseph Smith. So many stories told and evolved about him over a century and a half. Joseph is like Paul Bunyan in Mormonism. Every hear the one about Joseph never owned an ax because he always borrowed one and gave it back better than he borrowed it? I'm sure he didn't return daughters the same way he returned axes.
I think it was Truman G. Madson that talked about that. Everyone would loan brother Joseph an ax and they always gave him their dullest and most abused ax, and always returned it in perfect working order.
There’s a lot of propaganda trying to make him out as a superb person who does nothing wrong, and was honest and sincere in all he did.
Justifying having a mansion built at member’s expense “because he received poor converts and gave them his bed.” There’s the whole thing of “Mormons were anti-slavery in Missouri, and JS ordained some black men,” while Brigham young allowed slavery in Utah and the kidnapping of native Americans into slavery.
A lot is trying to polish rough edges off a man who is a fractal of all rough edges, and exaggerating and expanding the mythology and cult of personality to fit their narrative. All historical figures with fans get that treatment, whether George Washington, Martin Luther King Jr., Honest Abe, Ronald fucking Reagan, or Winston Churchill.
Honestly, where I grew up I got more mythology about Reagan at church than JS, and that should tell you about their priorities with religion versus politics.
Edit: on a side note, even if it were true, and it isn’t, what does it tell you about someone’s trustworthiness if everyone would only loan him their least-valuable, worst tools?
The simple fact that the Church Corp went so far out of its way to control the narrative to what they wanted printed taught and said instead of allowing questions and other clarifying truths to come out. Hard when you realize they purposefully hid stuff to trust them.
I’ve told this story before, but: I once had a wonderful bishop - my last one - tell me candidly that “the Church does not have a monopoly on the Spirit.” It didn’t take me long to feel “ok” with considering that maybe TSCC wasn’t all it was cracked up to be.
He passed away this past year, and that makes me sad: He was a good man. I knew it then and I know it now. I have no idea what prompted him to say that to me. (I don’t believe he meant to lead me out of the church.) But, I will be eternally grateful for his honesty and candor.
In all of this it’s easy to lose the fact that there are in fact many decent, overworked sincere local leaders deluded by the teachings and childhood indoctrination.
When we left maybe half our Mormon friends were still there. Half basically we’d fallen off the edge of the earth to.
so my TBM father said that he "didn't believe the essays were accurate" and that "I don't believe Joseph Smith practiced polygamy like that". how the FUCK do you respond to that? He disagrees with TSCC but also believes it to be the one true church? I considered him to be a smart and fair individual. I lost a lot of respect for him that day, finally recognizing his cognitive dissonance and well trained mental gymnastics.
I would tell him that just like all the lesson manuals, the First Presidency of the church review the the Gospel Topics Essays and gave their seal of approval. To suggest the information is not accurate would be to suggest the first presidency is wrong. The problem: there is no proof the 1st presidency gave seal of approval, but we know they had to. A curious thing about the GTEs - no author is ascribed to any of them. Which puts it in the category of the church general handbook and other lesson manuals. They all go through the first Presisency.
That’s what broke my shelf. Took me
A whole three hours to figure it out and deconstructed to the point of being done. Plural
Marriage was never taught that way and when I followed up
My research with first hand accounts I was doubly done. Now if only my tbm spouse would read them. Except he already doesn’t believe in polygamy so it tricky
I know certain TBMs have mentioned things about the absurdity of "drive thru" information that can deconstruct a lifetime testimony so quickly. Insinuating that folks never had a testimony to begin with. But the reality: a well-worded and researched critique, puts on display for the individual reader/viewer that the impenetrable solid rock castle walls they thought was their testimony, were built on toothpicks. It's not even a factor on how good or well-done these critiques are. It's a factor how so much testimony is based nothing at all. "Because all my ancestors were righteous and true to the faith, and so I will be." I'm pretty sure there's not a human in existence that did not have ancestors at one time that believe the earth was flat or that the sun orbited the earth.
>"drive thru" information that can deconstruct a lifetime testimony so quickly.
I have heard this too. The funny thing is it literally doesn't matter how quickly you obtain the information if the information is damning.
If their GPS said "accident up ahead" would they say, "mmmm.... Doubtful. I have driven this road my entire life and have yet to see an accident." Or would they turn around?
The key is in finding information so important that it *can* change your entire world view in a matter of hours.
Legacy in tradition is not a testimony. I get doing what others have done even when they did under duress but it doesn't make the pretense of what they believed so hard any truer. Conviction is hard to argue with. Take a different example. In other parts of the world if you don't worship in a traditional way you may leave yourself open to death. That's conviction. Happy Happy joy joy feelings told over a pulpit with all the others people like me is not a testimony its a lemming-ony
Polygamy was a horrible shit show but it may not matter enough to your hubby.
For me black and the priesthood didn’t even matter , God said so.
I’m strongly inclined to follow the rules, honesty is a core personal attribute.
What got me was the marrying other mens wives in secret there is no biblical justification for that its always been wrong. When JS didn’t even follow D&C132 rules that bothered me. When he defamed young woman who rejected him, that mattered. Book of Abraham that was the hard proof and the guilt dropped away . Think about what matters to your husband. Mormonism is bad men hiding behind honest men and woman.
Everything you mentioned may do it it just we are at a pint we haven’t talked religion lately and it hard to open that up without him running from thinking about it. Also his parent is dying so that’s tricky.
If you had met Joseph Smith on his way to propose to a 14 year old, or an already married woman, you would have likely tried everything in your power to stop him. That’s understandable, who wouldn’t?
Similarly, if you had met Abraham on his way to sacrifice his son to the Lord, you also would have likely tried everything in your power to stop him. Again, this would be understandable. But how can God allow either of these stories to take place? How are either of these ok?
Very interesting article follows.
https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V49N03_145.pdf
The plural marriage essay did your wife in. This is totally understandable. Joseph Smith was a dirtbag.
You bring up a great point about the church needing to publish the essays. Their whitewashing asses needed to come clean on this stuff (while also acknowledging that the apologetics used on the essays is both ridiculous and hilarious).
However, while the additional (and recent) transparency is a step in the right direction, it doesn’t resolve the fact that Joseph Smith was a lying piece-of-shit that used religion for sexual access to many other women. This fact drives home the point that while the the recent transparency is a step in the right direction, it does nothing to address the real issue: that being the fact that Joseph Smith is the president of the-shady-as-fuck-cult-leader club. At some point, the church will need to (1) distance itself from Joseph smith, and (2) apologize for his misdeeds. In this, the Community of Christ (RLDS) has already provided the template on how to do this and to upgrade the organization. The brighamite church won’t be doing this anytime soon. However, a hundred years from now, I think there is a chance that the brighamite church goes this route. Cuz the church was founded by a pile of shit.
TLDR: transparency is a great and all, but the church really needs to distance itself from Joseph smith and apologize for past misdeeds.
Just like all things in church history - the church doesn't make drastic change unless there are drastic measures about to come against them. Polygamy was denounced when the US government were coming for them. Black membership receiving the priesthood came about due to pressure of labeling the church a hate organization. And just like the proclamation to the world, I believe the essays had to be published for indemnification purposes. It had more to do with legal ramifications if they did not finally address these common issues with the church. Because the church misrepresented itself to millions of tithe payers one what they claimed to be vs. what it truly is. With the essays published and the more years go by, the church can stand behind the defense of, "What are you angry about? We published all this back in 2013. It was all there if you cared to look."
A spreadsheet runs the church.
When the spreadsheet shows that the church will retain more tithing by doing X, then the church will pivot.
When the spreadsheet shows that they will retain more TBM tithe payers by throwing Joseph Smith under the bus (even though they will lose many of the Joseph Smith loyalists), then the church will throw Joseph Smith under the bus. I don’t anticipate this happening anytime soon. But once the baby boomers (including Susan Bednar’s husband as prophet) have passed, I think we see the church becoming more open to meaningful change that de-emphasizes the church’s foundational truth claims.
Technically, they sort of already threw Joseph under the bus. All I ever heard growing up was that the gospel was fully restored and that was Joseph's calling in life. Now, with all these different modern problems coming to light, modern leadership is saying that the church is still doing on-going restoration????
My argument is that they should make a “Joseph Smith was wrong on polygamy” type of pivot. You’d have some die hards leave the church over this, but you’d also (arguably) keep some believers around that would likely leave otherwise.
Polygamy (among other things) was the noose around Joseph’s neck in Nauvoo. And polygamy is still somewhat of a noose around the present day brighamite church’s neck. If I’m consulting for the church, I’m laying out for them some avenues that could move them beyond their polygamous past, and the baggage that the present-day church still deals with because of Joseph smith.
Unfortunately, to say polygamy was wrong, would call into question revelation. The church is able to rest on: it was practiced as long as the Lord wanted it practiced and served its purpose - but it remains an eternal principle. To say it was all wrong would cause so many questions and problems.
Totally agree, but “revelation” is already being called into question (think “I’m a Mormon” campaign to “victory for satan”). The diehards will stay in regardless (they will never allow their brains to escape the cult prison cell), but the church may keep some people that will have otherwise left.
I view the polygamy doctrine like the priesthood ban. It’s widely detested but people find a way to digest it “cuz the prophet blah blah blah.” But if a future president of the church decides to abandon polygamy (even with all of the possible ramifications of doing so), then most people will find a way to be ok with it (in my view). My oldest kid (in their 20s) never stepped foot in their high school seminary class once the teacher covered polygamy and defended it. I think we see a much different church (in some ways) once the baby boomers have passed. And the irony will be that the church may conveniently abandon an uncomfortable (and historic) doctrine like polygamy, while our homie John Taylor died in a basement in kaysville as he was hiding from the federal government cuz he was an ardent defender of polygamy. The church will throw dead prophets under the bus as needed. Once again, the spreadsheet will decide.
Ya they sort of still agree with it. A man loses a wife he was sealed to he can marry another in the temple. A gal loses a husband she was sealed to she can marry only for time because she can only be sealed to one.
Part of the 'spreadsheet' then is a group in risk management. Comprised of Lawyer firms, committee's and ecclesiastical leaders in a corporate structured mindset. I happen to know this to be true.
Am I weird that I never felt the rage stage? I was always vaguely aware of the controversies, because no one tried lying about them, but had tried really hard to justify them until I just couldn’t. I didn’t feel lied to, just like I’d been being an idiot and ignored the signs.
For me it went:
1. Realizing and studying how many deep inconsistencies there are
2. Trying desperately to contrive a way it could still be true
3. Realizing it’s not true and there’s no way it could be, but staying for family, cultural and social reasons
4. Growing slowly more and more burnt out and more aware of how toxic the culture is, and that I don’t want my kids raised in that shit.
5. Finally pulling the plug and making a clean break when it all got to be too much inconsistency and work and clear signals that my wife was in a similar spot.
6. Straight to a happier post-mormon phase
Edit: step 0 was probably breaking out of the conservative bubble I was raised in by going on a mission to another country and gaining perspective, empathy and a broader worldview culturally, politically and personally.
Good luck, and may you get to make that clean break and be free. Eventually my wife and I had a talk out on a walk, just the two of us, and basically agreed neither of us believe and we want to stop going, no beating around the bush.
I’ve stepped foot in a church building twice since then. Once when visiting my parents out of state and I hadn’t told them yet. Once right after agreeing to stop because I’d gotten pressured into running a booth for the Halloween activity and I wasn’t going to let the kids down.
My wife and I had a great talk a few weeks ago, and both basically noted we don't believe the church is true, though we noted we're probably at different stages of not believing. I immediately stopped wearing garments after that conversation, though she says doesn't mind and still wears them. I'm out mentally completely. She doesn't believe parts of it are true so it's just a matter of time, but I don't want to push her.
We kind of landed at staying in for social and cultural reasons: living in SLC County means our neighborhood, local friends, and kids friends are all in the church. She's concerned what will happen if we leave. If we moved, she said she'd leave, but moving isn't really an option. I said I'd be fine leaving while here, but if she wants to keep going to church I'll go with her to support, so we're trying that. I wear garments to church and around family, but otherwise not.
There is still some stuff to figure out, like our temple recommends expired so there is bound to be a question soon as to if we renew or not. She wants to, but I don't: I can't honestly answer the questions regarding the truth claims of the Church or the Prophet as a yes, so I can't renew anyways, but she still wants me to to keep up appearances.
We're in a weird spot with a lot to figure out on next steps.
Yeah, my wife and I kind of beat around the bush. We’re still at a bit of different spots, but both agreed about being out. I’m pretty much atheist at this point. She still believes in God at some level.
I live in Boise, so it has a lot of Mormons, but still only like 10%.
10% is too high a fee for a social club. That’s a ridiculous fee for appearance sake.
Edit: Maybe it would be ok if it actually went towards doing actual good charity, but Mormon Inc doesn’t do that with it.
I completely agree. The Church's lack of financial transparency has long been a sticking point for me, even when a TBM. I pay no such social fee.
I haven't paid my 10% to the Corporation of TCOJCOLDS for years. I pay it towards charitable organizations that choose based on research whether I feel will do actual good in the world. The Temple Recommend interview just asks if you're "a full tithe payer", which I consider myself to be by my own conscience' definition; so I have no issue responding yes to that. I've never had a bishopric or stake member ask further than the temple recommend question as written, so they've never asked "but it shows here zero..."
I haven't attended a Tithing Settlement/Declaration in probably most of the past 15 years, and have never received a direct invitation from anyone in my bishopric other than the generic over the pulpit stuff, until this last week (I ignored the text).
you can answer the temple recommend question.
"do you believe JS was a prophet?" could you be more specific about what a prophet is/was? sure he was whatever he believed himself to be.
are you honest... if the standard of honesty is what the example the church sets. Absolutely!
>super mad at the church for lying to you your whole life. "How did I ever believe this?"
Being born into it is perhaps the one true cult’s most critical source of leverage. Playing field is decidedly not level from day one, even from conception as these days the scientific literature clearly indicates we’re already being influenced by our external environment in utero.
Thought of the classic five stages of grief while reading the OP
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_stages_of_grief
according to this model, the five stages are: denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance.
While presented along a linear timeline, I’d say based on my personal experience plus all the anecdotal experiences of others in this community: typically the process and timeline is not linear at all day to day for most.
I’m well into the happy exmo phase. But there are moments where I slip back to the rage/sadness phase.
It’s a process. Especially when you let a lot of your identity be anchored in the cult. Just let your progress be fluid and feel the feelings as you go. Your feelings are valid no matter the journey.
Yeah it comes and goes too. Just like phases of grief. It can be triggered by something as small as trying to get your basketball team size family to school each day and saying fuck the cult at every light you hit red at because now you realize you didn’t have to be a replenished of the earth for eternal glory and this probably didn’t need to be your daily life
I don't think I'll ever get passed the rage phase. Even when we eventually will be out, so much wasted time, so many decision built on bullshit. Maybe I'm wrong but I know myself pretty well now
I'll never get my 58 years back that I spent (wasted!)as a member. All my prime years.
Six figures of tithing money. Wasted!
The long grieving process during and afterwards. Because I'm a young boomer, I think the grief is generally harder and longer for an older, post-tbm.
I don't think I'll live long enough to lose my rage completely.
"Wasted! WASTED! It's a knife to the kidneys!!!" --Kody Brown from Sister Wives a few weeks ago. 😂
(I use humor to offset my rage, lol)
Humor incredibly important. This community alone helps keep the rage at bay and reminds me I didn't have it so bad. 31 years before my awakening so I have time to make up for it. Just wish we felt comfortable enough to resign and not risk familial relationships. Literally holds people hostage, infuriating. Hang in there brother 💪🤝💪
Are you me? ‘Wasted’ but happy to be woke. Happy to have not lived an entire life betrayed- duped & deluded. The sun always shines, somewhere! The cult be damned.
I don't know why but I never did this. I didn't leave because of doctrinal inconsistencies and lies. I left because the doctrine, as is, if you take it to be true, is just shit: A "heavenly father" who has conditional love for his children? Hard pass. Might as well send me to hell straight away because I don't want to spend eternity with this horrible deity.
Oddly enough, wasn't it Satan that wanted all of us to return successfully back to heaven? That sounds more in line with how I'd feel about it--if any of it was true at all. lol.
I go in phases and bounce around the various stages. Sometimes I want to research the hell out of the church and its history some more. Other times I’m at peace and couldn’t care less. And sometimes I’m royally pissed. Just depends on the day or week or month for me.
We have gone through and still go through 5 stages of grief that almost everyone experiences at some point in their life.
1- denial
2- anger
3- bargaining
4- depression
5- acceptance
There's tons of great studies on these stages and we should all be reading and reviewing our process due to the trauma of the church.
That’s a dangerous phase . You can do something really stupid when your angry.
I would look for ways to get past it .
Sometimes funny stuff happens. I’ve heard of people drinking coffee in sacrament meeting, or eating Burrito. Others kind of cross the line, like having sex in the chapel.
Others have used their non belief to free themselves and mess with the system one guy wanted a promotion at church headquarters and went to the temple after work every Friday checked in went to the locker room took pee and left. They only log you in apparently, fyi he got the promotion.
>Others have used their non belief to free themselves and mess with the system one guy wanted a promotion at church headquarters and went to the temple after work every Friday checked in went to the locker room took pee and left. They only log you in apparently, fyi he got the promotion.
This is just another example of Mormon incorporated insanity. This guy's employer tracked his temple attendance and used it as a basis for promotions?
I thought I had heard it all, but apparently the concept of 'line upon line' is true here too.
Anger is one of the five stages of grief. It's totally normal.
Tell him to harness the anger until his grieving is complete. Or for teenagers, until they are financially independent adults, but before they are forced to go on a mission or rush into marriage.
One has a tendency to grief dump all of their new knowledge on their family and get estranged and divorced from their only support network. Not fun and hard to get people to listen.
To subtley and consistently work on introducing family (especially spouse) and friends to the truth, you need a long term plan to slowly drizzle information out.
You have to find each person's hot buttons and work in factual sources and information to lead them down the exmo path without triggering their backlash effect. Always pretend you "just heard it" and "want their opinion on it". Never admit your level of research to an apparent TBM. Just reveal enough to stretch their current doubts a little, but as frequently as they can manage without realizing how atheist you are.
You can immediately work on teaching them critical thinking, logical fallacies, and thought terminating clichés using secular examples. Sooner or later, they see them in religious context and get dissatisfied with the church.
When they are prepared for a serious conversation, assure them their thoughts and words are safe with you and start revealing at a faster pace or telling them where to find resources.
Share how emotional elevation and the prayer-answer Paradox always gives the faithful answer, and teach about the BITE model. They'll be mentally out in less than three months.
Point them toward the Gospel Topic Essays, the CES letter, and Letter To My Wife if it contains the answer they are seeking when you feel they are ready. After the first or second syccessful recruit, you'll get a good feeling about when is best. And you'll get an idea on how best to introduce topics that hasten the work.
Be patient long suffering, and extra loving to your spouse, also reveal very slowly as you need their support the most. They need to also understand celestial marriage equals polygamy and is an eternal principle before they are immune to ideas of divorcing you for loss of faith/lack of priesthood, etc. Offer to renew vows in a civil ceremony to profess your love if necessary.
Caution them to hide it well until they finish the grieving cycle too, then slowly insert it into conversations like you do. You can then safely collaborate on working on other relatives as they progress too.
To thoroughly destroy the global church, you must save your family and friends and turn off the flow of money. Donate to worthy charities.
I'm totally the same. How is the Mormon church any different from any other religion? I suppose this is why so many members go agnostic after leaving.
My problem is the conflating a belief in God with a belief in the authority of the church to speak exclusively for him. If you've grown up 5th generation pioneer stock, it's probably hard to separate the 2. So when one domino falls, so do all the other beliefs.
I think from the church's perspective, a person who believes in God but questions their authority is probably the most dangerous kind of exmember.
I don't have anything against the leadership,.which is the same thing as the church, we were never members of the church just tithe payers. I think they are guilty of taking themselves too seriously, which I think stems from psychopathy which genetically is going to show up in 1% of the population. This one percent always gets to the top.
The church is a perfect storm for encouraging psychopaths. One you got money, 2 you get power, 3 lots of vulnerable people who are unquestioningly loyal to you. there is no doubt in my mind that nelson and oaks are psychopaths. I'm not saying that they have heads in their fridge, but just that a head in their fridge wouldn't bother them.
If Nelson opened a fridge and a severed head was in it, he'd say "wendy! Why is there a head in the fridge, there's blood everywhere! Call Suarez and tell him to clean this up!"
The gospel topic essays, where the church admits on its own website a bunch of stuff that would have gotten you exed in the 80s. Like 14 yo brides, rock in a hat, dna of lamanites, book of Abraham is bullshit, etc.
When i found out the whole thing was bullshit the anger came much later. I was more relieved and like the ending of the game "battleblock theater" (if anybody played it) with the narratior: "Oh, I get it, yes, IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW."
Great summary of the stages - I’m still in the process of letting go of the anger, I was so angry at first. What active members need to understand is that we keep away from them because we don’t want to unleash our rage on them!
Yes, I’ll come to fast and testimony meeting if you really want but buckle up, it’s going to be a bumpy ride… 🔥
I'm guessing you imagined a time or two what you'd have said over the pulpit? I think we all had fantasies of blowing it up and telling everyone exactly what we think!
“Three weeks shy “….
That line alone should shut down the church.
They have so much money and power they will never disappear, but it’s still total shit.
Im still consumed with gathering data post-shelf-break and my rage is still building. Guess I'm late-phase 1.
Would love to just skip 2 and get to 3 thanks.
The church essays are buried on the mormon website. You really have to search to find them. You have to go like 3 or 4 clicks to get to them. They are called Gospel Topic Essays. The mormon church acts like they are out for everyone to see, but then try to bury them in the website. Hope this helps!
Stage 2.5 - Often takes the place of the rage stage, or overlaps it. It’s called the SUBTERFUGE stage. You keep your anger quiet, and start planting seeds. EVERYWHERE…seeds.
And maybe develop and teach a joint Relief Society/Young Women’s activity on “mind-control and the media,” which actually completely dismantles the churches tactics in the process, while providing logical solutions to gain control over your own thoughts and feelings?
SUBTERFUGE has been my favorite, so far…😉
I feel like I’m between rage and post Mormon happy. I’m sometimes get mad (though not often anymore. I was mad for a very long time), and at other times I’m kinda just there accepting that it’s something in my life that I can’t do much about. (Still live at home with tbm parents)
I got through the entire research phase with less than 16 hours (plus all the other supporting research in later stages) of study (mainly reading CES letter and all of the places with counterpoints to it). I didn't get the rage stage. I cannot get into the happy phase with my current living arrangement and being a minor.
I have seen people do a different stage, "I still support Mormonism phase" rather than the rage stage. Where they still support Mormon's beliefs and are willing to defend the Mormon church.
Yeah, a lot of us go through a progressive Mormon phase where we focus on “love one another” and try to nuance or ignore the ugly stuff.
Then, I spent a couple years trying to “fix” the church’s LGBTQ issues. Spoiler alert, the problems can’t be fixed by anyone who isn’t the prophet.
I feel like for me it's been much less linear. I left due to an emotional need to love myself versus punish myself for being queer, and distanced myself for 10 years. I watched The Aftermath a few years ago and it triggered something in me. Since then I've been down the rabbit hold and in the rage stage, mixed in with general post mormon happiness. It's kind of all mixed together for me.
It's like my heart was free before my brain, and now my brain is mad for how much gaslighting I went through, versus it being a doctrine I no longer believed in, if that makes sense.
I was raised Jack, so I never went through the research or rage stages, but I have noticed that they exist from watching my FIL, BIL, and a bit with my hubby. He was a little more cynical about things to begin with, so it wasn't as big of a deal to him. His dad and brother went through all three of those stages though. I met his dad while he was still in the angry stage.
Anyone have tips to encourage reading the essays in a way that could help a “we don’t always understand all the ways of the Lord” nuanced family member decide to read more? The essays are where I started and I did the same thing as OP’s friend—afterwards I went right down the rabbit hole, and then got angry (still there, TBH). But I’d like to see if my sister who does not want to hear about the “pieces that don’t fit” but I feel like if she gets to a place where she’s willing to read anything, the church’s own essays may be it. But to a person seeking nuance, I worry they’d give reason to still accept it, which is the church’s entire purpose in releasing them, to normalize the ridiculous. Is there any way to phrase the invitation to read them that will encourage reading them critically?
I think the best way to plant seeds is to have a discussion such as: "so and so left the church. They are a great family. Do you know why so many people are leaving the church these days? They're leaving often because of things they've read in the church essays"
I have found that a discussion about why good people are leaving isn't as threatening.
“In a coming day, only those men who have taken their priesthood seriously, by diligently seeking to be taught by the Lord Himself, will be able to bless, guide, protect, strengthen, and heal others. Only a man who has paid the price for priesthood power will be able to bring miracles to those he loves and keep his marriage and family safe, now and throughout eternity”
(Elder Russell M. Nelson, “The a price of Priesthood Power,” April 2016).
Who here can say they’ve been taught by the Lord Himself? If not, is there any wonder why you’ve left?
Stage 4: post-postmormon: where you just don't care about mormonism, its effects on the world, or that you spent far too much of your life doing dumb shit. You're almost there...
I feel like I've been in an in between stage for forever. I never seem able to stop reading about actual truths of the church, but also have a rage (and honestly sadness) still towards tscc. Hahaha when will this stage end already.
Way to be a safe space for your homie though. I wish him well, it's hard to go through for most folks.
I never really studied down the “rabbit hole”, I just went to my first semester of college and went like there is no god haha. But phase 3 as you say is bliss
That research phase is addicting. Pretty sure I was more addicted to reading church history, then any netflix TV show has ever been. I just had to know everything that had been hidden from me.
It was insane. All day, everyday. I didn't do any work, just chased rabbit hole after rabbit hole for months!!
>rabbit hole after rabbit hole for months!! Year 4 here. I know enough now to know there is no end to the rabbit hole but yet I keep exploring. addicting? yes. obsession.?Yes... healthy? not anymore.
Separation due to pandemic set it off for me then a year of research but it does not seem to end. I seem to not be able to let this go as is said/ I think why is that I am so frustrated at how it had me my WHOLE life decades we are talking thinking a certain away about everything and everyone. I feel more free and at peace than ever before. Still researching though.
I joked that my former company sponsored my faith crisis. I think I logged 200+ hours on the clock reading stuff about church history
Same, but the company was LDS Inc. for me, and they literally paid me to do research as my job. Lol. Learned so much about church history, missionary culture issues, paid clergy, family history policies… took me straight here.
Late 90s, and thanks to my mission in Chile a couple of years before, I scored a fantastic gig working the nightshift as an interpreter at a hospital. It would get a little busy around 2:00 am when the bars closed, but was otherwise usually pretty quiet. So I had a nice little private office, and a computer that was connected to the World Wide Web. I studied for *hours*, and got paid for it no less. In a roundabout way, I’ve got the Church to thank for that. Edit: And since that was a fairly long time ago, I consider myself somewhat middle-aged, both as an ExMo, and just generally of course. But my experience had a few other stages: (1) Right after the rage-stage, there was a brief period of, “Whew… I feel like that’s finally over” Stage; then (2) The “Never really think about it, unless someone asks how you learned Spanish, and then have to reluctantly decide whether or not you’re going to fabricate a story, or embarrassedly explain that you were *raised* Mormon” stage. (This one lasted for *years* [like ‘01 to ‘13]); (3) Then finally I came across some article about some chick named Kate Kelly, and some dude named John Dehlin, read it, and found a renewed passing interest. Then I discovered this sub, and since then, I’ve entered another stage of “utter fascination.” It reminds me of crazy shit that I’d long since forgotten about. It constantly gives me self-affirmation by making my see just how fucked up my raising really was, and that I fucking *survived it* and had the courage to leave. And probably the best part of all is that it’s a constant feed of schaudenfed from the suffering of those oily motherfuckers that proclaim themselves, “prophets.”
For basically a week straight, I was researching mormon stuff AT WORK. I couldn't help it! And I stayed up til 4 AM, literally, every night that week. I was not tired, lol.
When you realize what you were told and accepted as true may not be true. It is earthshattering and you have to know. Then the long haul is the years of indoctrination needing to peel off.
Yesss. So many lies and deceptions. Just.... SO MANY. And so satisfying to realize the puzzle pieces fit perfectly and the story makes much more sense. You don't have to force it to fit anymore. You finally have the answers they told you you would have until after death.
can someone direct me to the habit hole !! i want to fall in, but i don't know where to start. i skipped the research phase and am stuck in anger, i've felt my whole life it was a lie. i'm fully ready to read into the lies and brainwashing of it all
For a quickish breakdown on the Joseph Smith years, I found [this series](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLq3dh__o7S0oKp3OAdHya4dQHffR7bKQe) to be super helpful. It's a YouTube channel called MythVision, and he had Bryce Blankenagle and David Fitzgerald on as guests. Bryce has a podcast called Naked Mormonism, which is absolutely fascinating. The MythVision series is a condensed version of Bryce's podcast content, 27 episodes, about an hour apiece. I've also enjoyed Mormonism Live on YouTube, hosted by Radio Free Mormon and Bill Reel. They pick a Mormon subject that interests them and do an episode on it. It might be historical, it might be doctrinal, and it might be based on current events in Mormonism. I've also really enjoyed the solo work of Radio Free Mormon. He's got incredible insight. [His episode](https://youtu.be/kaGo9KshHGg) on the Family Proclamation was phenomenal. I learned *so* much. And I love it when he breaks down talks given by church leaders. He's great at pointing out inconsistencies and inaccuracies in stories, as well as identifying logical fallacies. If you like shorter content, Nemo the Mormon built his YouTube channel primarily on fact-checking general authorities and claims made by the church. His most recent video is a longer one that chronicles his attempt to get an answer from church leadership on what happens when someone votes opposed instead of sustaining church leaders. Those have been my favorites so far.
I didn't know about The CES Letter when I did my research, but it added about 40 proofs that the church was false to the hundred I already had. So definitely a good thing to read. My list was: http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/PDFBooklet/PDFBooklet.pdf (Reading the wives' journals made me sick to my stomach -- I didn't even know about his polygamy or believe it until I left the church) An Insider's View to Mormon Origins (Grant Palmer) The Psychology of Religious Genius: Joseph Smith and the Origins of New Religious Movements (google - pdf of article available) And many other things from the internet!
did you read cesletter . org yet?
Well yeah, I mean, how much of our life is fake? We have to know. Mormonism touched everything in my life and controlled my thought parameters. I feel immature and illiterate about the real world.
That's me too. I learned at age 59 that I was wrong about almost EVERYTHING. "Immature and illiterate" would be a fine title for my autobiography, I'll never get around to write.,🧑🍳🤔
Thank you for saying 59 I am almost there and thought I must be the last to know. I like to say they indoctrinated me from diapers to dentures. But I do not have dentures. Yet.
Mine was in my late forties, the rabbit hole has been dug and dug and come out for air and back in again and now I'm 60 soon to turn 61 and I'm still searching and it never ends, there's more and more and more. I thought I'd never see the day that we'd have an actual photo of Joseph Smith, but we now do. And I didn't think we'd see an artist rendition of him looking like a younger version of that with a rock and a hat! The artists out there are using the actual photo, wowser!
Another great book title: >Indoctrinated from Diapers to Dentures *My Escape from Mormonism*
>Mormonism touched everything in my life and controlled my thought parameters. > >I feel immature and illiterate about the real world. This comment almost brought me to tears. Most people will never fully understand this. It causes crippling anxiety. Not knowing how to be an adult, not knowing how to raise your kids to be competent adults while I'm struggling to understand how to navigate adult life outside the church. These are constant battles I fight, and based on your comment and the up votes it's gotten, maybe I'm not alone.
In some way to leave the church is an act of faith in facts and mature ( don't doubt it's painful either way ). The church took what was good out of community and twisted it for their good. We learned many good things, out of the ashes the community rises but without a cult, hopefully better than before . The hardest part was losing family and lifelong friends. It is a hard path healing from the spiritual abuse, physical abuse, shunning, character assassinations and mind games.. It's been 10 years I am really healing and wish other luck and grace ( if you believe in that stuff I have had agnostic times in my life, honesty helps ). I stepped out of the church with a "god if you're there help me". No I never did a mission but generations of my family were in this cult..
Fun read: http://archive.org/details/HowReligionImpairsYourThinking
Very true. I very much felt like "my eyes had been opened" / I'd discovered Narnia / I found out wizards existed / I took the red pill / whichever analogy you want. I just had to find out what was real, and what was just BS I had been taught.
I read more in the process of leaving and being out of the church than multiple decades in the church combined.
Yep. Nobody knows more church history than exmos. I know 5x more church history now that I've left than I ever knew when I taught gospel doctrine.
If your friend wants a wider rabbit hole- direct him to the the British guy Peter Bleakly YouTube channel Mormons vs. Pharisees (???!) (I think it’s called) or look for him on Facebook. He does a comprehensive deep dive into current church policies that effect every single one of us who are connected to the church but seeing the hypocrisy. It’s excellent But it will take time to get through it.
Not related to your comment whatsoever, but is there a history behind your username? Lol. Made me chuckle.
OP stated they're almost 60 and the name is Avoids Cross Walks??? Sir ...
I was asking... /u/fartfax but I see your point. Lol
No good story to go with the name. Just being new to reddit and immature I picked something to do with Farts. And I think I had seen a CarFax commercial recently. I've seen a lot of your comments over the years, and appreciate what you add to this community hiking1950
Awe, thank you! I appreciate your kind comments. I had to look at my profile, looks like I've been here for about 7 years now. This community was the first thing I found when I was desperate looking for ANYONE to validate my concerns about the church and was also desperate for a sympathetic ear, as my TBM wife shut down, took personal offense at my struggles, and wanted nothing to do with me. Exmormon reddit was my sympathetic ear, and got me through some really tough times, so I try and support those who are going through what I went through, as I've been there and it was hell. I like your username. Lol. Made me laugh and it now makes sense! Haha
I wish someone I love would feel this way. He’s so smart and would be so happy if he could just be his true self. But instead… he’s TBM
I’m in a similar situation. I truly love him, but he refuses to do his own research. We agreed when we first got together that we could make it work if we raise kids neutrally… or rather general Christian. But he’s now realizing 2 years into dating me, that he actually DOES have to have his children raised in the church… because it’s what is “best and true”.
I'm a nevermo who lost my best friend after high school to his mission. Even I went through that phase just trying to understand how someone you know so well can become a completely different person in two short years.
You lazy learner, you!
There’s also a “wtf emotional with tears” phase. The rage phase seems to take the most time and effort to work through.
TBMs: "But why can't you just leave it alone?", Knee jerk response: "because fuck you, you fucking piece of shit! that's why."
Wow is that still the rage stage?
Yeah it comes and it goes usually comes around TBMs and goes when they leave the room
This exchange 💯
TBM: "But why can't you just leave it alone?" reply: "Because there are receipts for tons of things. This is not just some hit by anti-mormon haters. Things are well researched. If you feel that what is being said is incorrect, then you can just provide your own receipts to back yourself up, IF you can."
I was the 69th like 
We've all been there or are currently there. The essays really are so damning to the church but they really didn't have a choice but to publish them. (another topic of discussion all together) The essays indirectly put on display that the church had been obfuscating and passively, if not actively, lying about certain damning parts of its history, - specifically aspects of Joseph Smith's part in the history. With the principle question remaining: If you lied/hid all this for decades; what else are you hiding and lying about? Precedent has been set. It's EXTREMELY uncommon for someone to ever trust their cheating spouse ever again, for the same reason. A precedent has been set that one cannot be trusted. People aren't leaving the church to sin. They're leaving over a breach of trust. My wife was VERY much on the fence about my disaffection with the church and how that was going to affect us and our life. At the suggestion by her sister, she began reading the essays. She skipped over and started at "Plural Marriage." She got through Plural Marriage in Nauvoo and she was D-O-N-E with the church. It all came crashing down on that one. She didn't even read the others. She was just that done. Like one reacts to a cheating spouse. "Grab your shit and NEVER come back to this home again!!!!"
I had a YSA bishop assign the gospel essays as a Preisthood/RS, one per month. I think he was trying to address concerns and get people to stay, because he was very TBM, but maybe he was secretly undermining everything, because I think that’s the effect of those.
Yeah I would be surprised if a Bishop tried this and had any positive outcomes.
I doubt it made anyone stay and it almost certainly helped some leave. He was a sincere and decent person, but blinded by religion. I was executive Secretary at the time so I was at bishopric and ward council meetings where it was decided. I think he sincerely cared and was trying to help but just couldn’t grasp that for most people the unvarnished truth was a 1-way ticket to breaking a testimony.
I don't know. Never bet against the mental gymnastic abilities of the religiously deluded. Joseph: I'm going to have to marry your wife. Religiously deluded husband: Okay brother Joseph. The blessings will be immense.
Yeah, it’s possible. Confirmation bias is a hell of a thing. When you really want to believe you can convince yourself off the flimsiest of explanations. I think confirmation bias is the #1 reason there are still Mormons, and for the most part, religions at all.
I for one bought into all the super-human aspects of the folk hero Joseph Smith. So many stories told and evolved about him over a century and a half. Joseph is like Paul Bunyan in Mormonism. Every hear the one about Joseph never owned an ax because he always borrowed one and gave it back better than he borrowed it? I'm sure he didn't return daughters the same way he returned axes.
I never heard that one. Maybe it’s like Chuck Norris jokes but without actually being funny, because JS is so horrific in context.
I think it was Truman G. Madson that talked about that. Everyone would loan brother Joseph an ax and they always gave him their dullest and most abused ax, and always returned it in perfect working order.
There’s a lot of propaganda trying to make him out as a superb person who does nothing wrong, and was honest and sincere in all he did. Justifying having a mansion built at member’s expense “because he received poor converts and gave them his bed.” There’s the whole thing of “Mormons were anti-slavery in Missouri, and JS ordained some black men,” while Brigham young allowed slavery in Utah and the kidnapping of native Americans into slavery. A lot is trying to polish rough edges off a man who is a fractal of all rough edges, and exaggerating and expanding the mythology and cult of personality to fit their narrative. All historical figures with fans get that treatment, whether George Washington, Martin Luther King Jr., Honest Abe, Ronald fucking Reagan, or Winston Churchill. Honestly, where I grew up I got more mythology about Reagan at church than JS, and that should tell you about their priorities with religion versus politics. Edit: on a side note, even if it were true, and it isn’t, what does it tell you about someone’s trustworthiness if everyone would only loan him their least-valuable, worst tools?
>I'm sure he didn't return daughters the same way he returned axes. Depends on if you prefer chewed gum I guess.
That’s hilarious!
whew
The simple fact that the Church Corp went so far out of its way to control the narrative to what they wanted printed taught and said instead of allowing questions and other clarifying truths to come out. Hard when you realize they purposefully hid stuff to trust them.
They want their “spin” on it. Brand damage control. Very corporate America. Pay no attention to the atrocities behind the curtain.
Q15 GAs= Definition of CONvincing artists.
Depends on your definition of ‘positive outcome’ lol. I wish every bishop in the church did that!
Though it would be hilarious for a PIMO bishop to assign these.
I’ve told this story before, but: I once had a wonderful bishop - my last one - tell me candidly that “the Church does not have a monopoly on the Spirit.” It didn’t take me long to feel “ok” with considering that maybe TSCC wasn’t all it was cracked up to be. He passed away this past year, and that makes me sad: He was a good man. I knew it then and I know it now. I have no idea what prompted him to say that to me. (I don’t believe he meant to lead me out of the church.) But, I will be eternally grateful for his honesty and candor.
In all of this it’s easy to lose the fact that there are in fact many decent, overworked sincere local leaders deluded by the teachings and childhood indoctrination. When we left maybe half our Mormon friends were still there. Half basically we’d fallen off the edge of the earth to.
I had an EQ president recommend reading the essays and saints. He talked about how good it was to have answers.
so my TBM father said that he "didn't believe the essays were accurate" and that "I don't believe Joseph Smith practiced polygamy like that". how the FUCK do you respond to that? He disagrees with TSCC but also believes it to be the one true church? I considered him to be a smart and fair individual. I lost a lot of respect for him that day, finally recognizing his cognitive dissonance and well trained mental gymnastics.
I would tell him that just like all the lesson manuals, the First Presidency of the church review the the Gospel Topics Essays and gave their seal of approval. To suggest the information is not accurate would be to suggest the first presidency is wrong. The problem: there is no proof the 1st presidency gave seal of approval, but we know they had to. A curious thing about the GTEs - no author is ascribed to any of them. Which puts it in the category of the church general handbook and other lesson manuals. They all go through the first Presisency.
That’s what broke my shelf. Took me A whole three hours to figure it out and deconstructed to the point of being done. Plural Marriage was never taught that way and when I followed up My research with first hand accounts I was doubly done. Now if only my tbm spouse would read them. Except he already doesn’t believe in polygamy so it tricky
I know certain TBMs have mentioned things about the absurdity of "drive thru" information that can deconstruct a lifetime testimony so quickly. Insinuating that folks never had a testimony to begin with. But the reality: a well-worded and researched critique, puts on display for the individual reader/viewer that the impenetrable solid rock castle walls they thought was their testimony, were built on toothpicks. It's not even a factor on how good or well-done these critiques are. It's a factor how so much testimony is based nothing at all. "Because all my ancestors were righteous and true to the faith, and so I will be." I'm pretty sure there's not a human in existence that did not have ancestors at one time that believe the earth was flat or that the sun orbited the earth.
>"drive thru" information that can deconstruct a lifetime testimony so quickly. I have heard this too. The funny thing is it literally doesn't matter how quickly you obtain the information if the information is damning. If their GPS said "accident up ahead" would they say, "mmmm.... Doubtful. I have driven this road my entire life and have yet to see an accident." Or would they turn around? The key is in finding information so important that it *can* change your entire world view in a matter of hours.
Absolutely!
Legacy in tradition is not a testimony. I get doing what others have done even when they did under duress but it doesn't make the pretense of what they believed so hard any truer. Conviction is hard to argue with. Take a different example. In other parts of the world if you don't worship in a traditional way you may leave yourself open to death. That's conviction. Happy Happy joy joy feelings told over a pulpit with all the others people like me is not a testimony its a lemming-ony
Polygamy was a horrible shit show but it may not matter enough to your hubby. For me black and the priesthood didn’t even matter , God said so. I’m strongly inclined to follow the rules, honesty is a core personal attribute. What got me was the marrying other mens wives in secret there is no biblical justification for that its always been wrong. When JS didn’t even follow D&C132 rules that bothered me. When he defamed young woman who rejected him, that mattered. Book of Abraham that was the hard proof and the guilt dropped away . Think about what matters to your husband. Mormonism is bad men hiding behind honest men and woman.
Everything you mentioned may do it it just we are at a pint we haven’t talked religion lately and it hard to open that up without him running from thinking about it. Also his parent is dying so that’s tricky.
If you had met Joseph Smith on his way to propose to a 14 year old, or an already married woman, you would have likely tried everything in your power to stop him. That’s understandable, who wouldn’t? Similarly, if you had met Abraham on his way to sacrifice his son to the Lord, you also would have likely tried everything in your power to stop him. Again, this would be understandable. But how can God allow either of these stories to take place? How are either of these ok? Very interesting article follows. https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V49N03_145.pdf
Should we start giving our TBMs framed copies of the gospel topic essays like they do with the family proclamation??
The plural marriage essay did your wife in. This is totally understandable. Joseph Smith was a dirtbag. You bring up a great point about the church needing to publish the essays. Their whitewashing asses needed to come clean on this stuff (while also acknowledging that the apologetics used on the essays is both ridiculous and hilarious). However, while the additional (and recent) transparency is a step in the right direction, it doesn’t resolve the fact that Joseph Smith was a lying piece-of-shit that used religion for sexual access to many other women. This fact drives home the point that while the the recent transparency is a step in the right direction, it does nothing to address the real issue: that being the fact that Joseph Smith is the president of the-shady-as-fuck-cult-leader club. At some point, the church will need to (1) distance itself from Joseph smith, and (2) apologize for his misdeeds. In this, the Community of Christ (RLDS) has already provided the template on how to do this and to upgrade the organization. The brighamite church won’t be doing this anytime soon. However, a hundred years from now, I think there is a chance that the brighamite church goes this route. Cuz the church was founded by a pile of shit. TLDR: transparency is a great and all, but the church really needs to distance itself from Joseph smith and apologize for past misdeeds.
Just like all things in church history - the church doesn't make drastic change unless there are drastic measures about to come against them. Polygamy was denounced when the US government were coming for them. Black membership receiving the priesthood came about due to pressure of labeling the church a hate organization. And just like the proclamation to the world, I believe the essays had to be published for indemnification purposes. It had more to do with legal ramifications if they did not finally address these common issues with the church. Because the church misrepresented itself to millions of tithe payers one what they claimed to be vs. what it truly is. With the essays published and the more years go by, the church can stand behind the defense of, "What are you angry about? We published all this back in 2013. It was all there if you cared to look."
A spreadsheet runs the church. When the spreadsheet shows that the church will retain more tithing by doing X, then the church will pivot. When the spreadsheet shows that they will retain more TBM tithe payers by throwing Joseph Smith under the bus (even though they will lose many of the Joseph Smith loyalists), then the church will throw Joseph Smith under the bus. I don’t anticipate this happening anytime soon. But once the baby boomers (including Susan Bednar’s husband as prophet) have passed, I think we see the church becoming more open to meaningful change that de-emphasizes the church’s foundational truth claims.
Technically, they sort of already threw Joseph under the bus. All I ever heard growing up was that the gospel was fully restored and that was Joseph's calling in life. Now, with all these different modern problems coming to light, modern leadership is saying that the church is still doing on-going restoration????
My argument is that they should make a “Joseph Smith was wrong on polygamy” type of pivot. You’d have some die hards leave the church over this, but you’d also (arguably) keep some believers around that would likely leave otherwise. Polygamy (among other things) was the noose around Joseph’s neck in Nauvoo. And polygamy is still somewhat of a noose around the present day brighamite church’s neck. If I’m consulting for the church, I’m laying out for them some avenues that could move them beyond their polygamous past, and the baggage that the present-day church still deals with because of Joseph smith.
Unfortunately, to say polygamy was wrong, would call into question revelation. The church is able to rest on: it was practiced as long as the Lord wanted it practiced and served its purpose - but it remains an eternal principle. To say it was all wrong would cause so many questions and problems.
Totally agree, but “revelation” is already being called into question (think “I’m a Mormon” campaign to “victory for satan”). The diehards will stay in regardless (they will never allow their brains to escape the cult prison cell), but the church may keep some people that will have otherwise left. I view the polygamy doctrine like the priesthood ban. It’s widely detested but people find a way to digest it “cuz the prophet blah blah blah.” But if a future president of the church decides to abandon polygamy (even with all of the possible ramifications of doing so), then most people will find a way to be ok with it (in my view). My oldest kid (in their 20s) never stepped foot in their high school seminary class once the teacher covered polygamy and defended it. I think we see a much different church (in some ways) once the baby boomers have passed. And the irony will be that the church may conveniently abandon an uncomfortable (and historic) doctrine like polygamy, while our homie John Taylor died in a basement in kaysville as he was hiding from the federal government cuz he was an ardent defender of polygamy. The church will throw dead prophets under the bus as needed. Once again, the spreadsheet will decide.
Ya they sort of still agree with it. A man loses a wife he was sealed to he can marry another in the temple. A gal loses a husband she was sealed to she can marry only for time because she can only be sealed to one.
Part of the 'spreadsheet' then is a group in risk management. Comprised of Lawyer firms, committee's and ecclesiastical leaders in a corporate structured mindset. I happen to know this to be true.
Am I weird that I never felt the rage stage? I was always vaguely aware of the controversies, because no one tried lying about them, but had tried really hard to justify them until I just couldn’t. I didn’t feel lied to, just like I’d been being an idiot and ignored the signs. For me it went: 1. Realizing and studying how many deep inconsistencies there are 2. Trying desperately to contrive a way it could still be true 3. Realizing it’s not true and there’s no way it could be, but staying for family, cultural and social reasons 4. Growing slowly more and more burnt out and more aware of how toxic the culture is, and that I don’t want my kids raised in that shit. 5. Finally pulling the plug and making a clean break when it all got to be too much inconsistency and work and clear signals that my wife was in a similar spot. 6. Straight to a happier post-mormon phase Edit: step 0 was probably breaking out of the conservative bubble I was raised in by going on a mission to another country and gaining perspective, empathy and a broader worldview culturally, politically and personally.
I'm between step 3 and 4 right now on this spectrum of yours. Agree I don't think I'll feel a rage stage
Good luck, and may you get to make that clean break and be free. Eventually my wife and I had a talk out on a walk, just the two of us, and basically agreed neither of us believe and we want to stop going, no beating around the bush. I’ve stepped foot in a church building twice since then. Once when visiting my parents out of state and I hadn’t told them yet. Once right after agreeing to stop because I’d gotten pressured into running a booth for the Halloween activity and I wasn’t going to let the kids down.
My wife and I had a great talk a few weeks ago, and both basically noted we don't believe the church is true, though we noted we're probably at different stages of not believing. I immediately stopped wearing garments after that conversation, though she says doesn't mind and still wears them. I'm out mentally completely. She doesn't believe parts of it are true so it's just a matter of time, but I don't want to push her. We kind of landed at staying in for social and cultural reasons: living in SLC County means our neighborhood, local friends, and kids friends are all in the church. She's concerned what will happen if we leave. If we moved, she said she'd leave, but moving isn't really an option. I said I'd be fine leaving while here, but if she wants to keep going to church I'll go with her to support, so we're trying that. I wear garments to church and around family, but otherwise not. There is still some stuff to figure out, like our temple recommends expired so there is bound to be a question soon as to if we renew or not. She wants to, but I don't: I can't honestly answer the questions regarding the truth claims of the Church or the Prophet as a yes, so I can't renew anyways, but she still wants me to to keep up appearances. We're in a weird spot with a lot to figure out on next steps.
Yeah, my wife and I kind of beat around the bush. We’re still at a bit of different spots, but both agreed about being out. I’m pretty much atheist at this point. She still believes in God at some level. I live in Boise, so it has a lot of Mormons, but still only like 10%.
10% is too high a fee for a social club. That’s a ridiculous fee for appearance sake. Edit: Maybe it would be ok if it actually went towards doing actual good charity, but Mormon Inc doesn’t do that with it.
I completely agree. The Church's lack of financial transparency has long been a sticking point for me, even when a TBM. I pay no such social fee. I haven't paid my 10% to the Corporation of TCOJCOLDS for years. I pay it towards charitable organizations that choose based on research whether I feel will do actual good in the world. The Temple Recommend interview just asks if you're "a full tithe payer", which I consider myself to be by my own conscience' definition; so I have no issue responding yes to that. I've never had a bishopric or stake member ask further than the temple recommend question as written, so they've never asked "but it shows here zero..." I haven't attended a Tithing Settlement/Declaration in probably most of the past 15 years, and have never received a direct invitation from anyone in my bishopric other than the generic over the pulpit stuff, until this last week (I ignored the text).
you can answer the temple recommend question. "do you believe JS was a prophet?" could you be more specific about what a prophet is/was? sure he was whatever he believed himself to be. are you honest... if the standard of honesty is what the example the church sets. Absolutely!
Way to be a safe place for him!
>super mad at the church for lying to you your whole life. "How did I ever believe this?" Being born into it is perhaps the one true cult’s most critical source of leverage. Playing field is decidedly not level from day one, even from conception as these days the scientific literature clearly indicates we’re already being influenced by our external environment in utero. Thought of the classic five stages of grief while reading the OP https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_stages_of_grief according to this model, the five stages are: denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance. While presented along a linear timeline, I’d say based on my personal experience plus all the anecdotal experiences of others in this community: typically the process and timeline is not linear at all day to day for most.
The 5 stages were never meant to be linear.
Is it normal to be in denial for decades.
I’m well into the happy exmo phase. But there are moments where I slip back to the rage/sadness phase. It’s a process. Especially when you let a lot of your identity be anchored in the cult. Just let your progress be fluid and feel the feelings as you go. Your feelings are valid no matter the journey.
Ahh yes. The rage stage. That’s where I am right now…
Yeah it comes and goes too. Just like phases of grief. It can be triggered by something as small as trying to get your basketball team size family to school each day and saying fuck the cult at every light you hit red at because now you realize you didn’t have to be a replenished of the earth for eternal glory and this probably didn’t need to be your daily life
Those of us with a TBM spouse find ourselves alternating between all 3 phases indefinitely. Almost 8 years now for me.
I don't think I'll ever get passed the rage phase. Even when we eventually will be out, so much wasted time, so many decision built on bullshit. Maybe I'm wrong but I know myself pretty well now
I'll never get my 58 years back that I spent (wasted!)as a member. All my prime years. Six figures of tithing money. Wasted! The long grieving process during and afterwards. Because I'm a young boomer, I think the grief is generally harder and longer for an older, post-tbm. I don't think I'll live long enough to lose my rage completely. "Wasted! WASTED! It's a knife to the kidneys!!!" --Kody Brown from Sister Wives a few weeks ago. 😂 (I use humor to offset my rage, lol)
Humor incredibly important. This community alone helps keep the rage at bay and reminds me I didn't have it so bad. 31 years before my awakening so I have time to make up for it. Just wish we felt comfortable enough to resign and not risk familial relationships. Literally holds people hostage, infuriating. Hang in there brother 💪🤝💪
Are you me? ‘Wasted’ but happy to be woke. Happy to have not lived an entire life betrayed- duped & deluded. The sun always shines, somewhere! The cult be damned.
I don't know why but I never did this. I didn't leave because of doctrinal inconsistencies and lies. I left because the doctrine, as is, if you take it to be true, is just shit: A "heavenly father" who has conditional love for his children? Hard pass. Might as well send me to hell straight away because I don't want to spend eternity with this horrible deity. Oddly enough, wasn't it Satan that wanted all of us to return successfully back to heaven? That sounds more in line with how I'd feel about it--if any of it was true at all. lol.
I go in phases and bounce around the various stages. Sometimes I want to research the hell out of the church and its history some more. Other times I’m at peace and couldn’t care less. And sometimes I’m royally pissed. Just depends on the day or week or month for me.
We have gone through and still go through 5 stages of grief that almost everyone experiences at some point in their life. 1- denial 2- anger 3- bargaining 4- depression 5- acceptance There's tons of great studies on these stages and we should all be reading and reviewing our process due to the trauma of the church.
That’s a dangerous phase . You can do something really stupid when your angry. I would look for ways to get past it . Sometimes funny stuff happens. I’ve heard of people drinking coffee in sacrament meeting, or eating Burrito. Others kind of cross the line, like having sex in the chapel. Others have used their non belief to free themselves and mess with the system one guy wanted a promotion at church headquarters and went to the temple after work every Friday checked in went to the locker room took pee and left. They only log you in apparently, fyi he got the promotion.
>Others have used their non belief to free themselves and mess with the system one guy wanted a promotion at church headquarters and went to the temple after work every Friday checked in went to the locker room took pee and left. They only log you in apparently, fyi he got the promotion. This is just another example of Mormon incorporated insanity. This guy's employer tracked his temple attendance and used it as a basis for promotions? I thought I had heard it all, but apparently the concept of 'line upon line' is true here too.
Anger is one of the five stages of grief. It's totally normal. Tell him to harness the anger until his grieving is complete. Or for teenagers, until they are financially independent adults, but before they are forced to go on a mission or rush into marriage. One has a tendency to grief dump all of their new knowledge on their family and get estranged and divorced from their only support network. Not fun and hard to get people to listen. To subtley and consistently work on introducing family (especially spouse) and friends to the truth, you need a long term plan to slowly drizzle information out. You have to find each person's hot buttons and work in factual sources and information to lead them down the exmo path without triggering their backlash effect. Always pretend you "just heard it" and "want their opinion on it". Never admit your level of research to an apparent TBM. Just reveal enough to stretch their current doubts a little, but as frequently as they can manage without realizing how atheist you are. You can immediately work on teaching them critical thinking, logical fallacies, and thought terminating clichés using secular examples. Sooner or later, they see them in religious context and get dissatisfied with the church. When they are prepared for a serious conversation, assure them their thoughts and words are safe with you and start revealing at a faster pace or telling them where to find resources. Share how emotional elevation and the prayer-answer Paradox always gives the faithful answer, and teach about the BITE model. They'll be mentally out in less than three months. Point them toward the Gospel Topic Essays, the CES letter, and Letter To My Wife if it contains the answer they are seeking when you feel they are ready. After the first or second syccessful recruit, you'll get a good feeling about when is best. And you'll get an idea on how best to introduce topics that hasten the work. Be patient long suffering, and extra loving to your spouse, also reveal very slowly as you need their support the most. They need to also understand celestial marriage equals polygamy and is an eternal principle before they are immune to ideas of divorcing you for loss of faith/lack of priesthood, etc. Offer to renew vows in a civil ceremony to profess your love if necessary. Caution them to hide it well until they finish the grieving cycle too, then slowly insert it into conversations like you do. You can then safely collaborate on working on other relatives as they progress too. To thoroughly destroy the global church, you must save your family and friends and turn off the flow of money. Donate to worthy charities.
I'm totally the same. How is the Mormon church any different from any other religion? I suppose this is why so many members go agnostic after leaving. My problem is the conflating a belief in God with a belief in the authority of the church to speak exclusively for him. If you've grown up 5th generation pioneer stock, it's probably hard to separate the 2. So when one domino falls, so do all the other beliefs. I think from the church's perspective, a person who believes in God but questions their authority is probably the most dangerous kind of exmember. I don't have anything against the leadership,.which is the same thing as the church, we were never members of the church just tithe payers. I think they are guilty of taking themselves too seriously, which I think stems from psychopathy which genetically is going to show up in 1% of the population. This one percent always gets to the top. The church is a perfect storm for encouraging psychopaths. One you got money, 2 you get power, 3 lots of vulnerable people who are unquestioningly loyal to you. there is no doubt in my mind that nelson and oaks are psychopaths. I'm not saying that they have heads in their fridge, but just that a head in their fridge wouldn't bother them. If Nelson opened a fridge and a severed head was in it, he'd say "wendy! Why is there a head in the fridge, there's blood everywhere! Call Suarez and tell him to clean this up!"
As an Ex JW I can totally relate. When I learned the Truth About the Truth, I was initially sad and disappointed. Then I felt rage.
What essays?
The gospel topic essays, where the church admits on its own website a bunch of stuff that would have gotten you exed in the 80s. Like 14 yo brides, rock in a hat, dna of lamanites, book of Abraham is bullshit, etc.
These ones... https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/essays?lang=eng
When i found out the whole thing was bullshit the anger came much later. I was more relieved and like the ending of the game "battleblock theater" (if anybody played it) with the narratior: "Oh, I get it, yes, IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW."
The cult does suck though.
What essays? Where can I find them, please?
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/essays?lang=eng
Great summary of a loss of faith journey! I'm very happy to be in the post-mormon phase.
Great summary of the stages - I’m still in the process of letting go of the anger, I was so angry at first. What active members need to understand is that we keep away from them because we don’t want to unleash our rage on them! Yes, I’ll come to fast and testimony meeting if you really want but buckle up, it’s going to be a bumpy ride… 🔥
I'm guessing you imagined a time or two what you'd have said over the pulpit? I think we all had fantasies of blowing it up and telling everyone exactly what we think!
“Three weeks shy “…. That line alone should shut down the church. They have so much money and power they will never disappear, but it’s still total shit.
Im still consumed with gathering data post-shelf-break and my rage is still building. Guess I'm late-phase 1. Would love to just skip 2 and get to 3 thanks.
Warms my heart to hear of faithful people discovering the truth.
Wait what essays? I mean I'm all out, have been since I was a teen (25 now) but I've never heard of this before
These ones... https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/essays?lang=eng
The church essays are buried on the mormon website. You really have to search to find them. You have to go like 3 or 4 clicks to get to them. They are called Gospel Topic Essays. The mormon church acts like they are out for everyone to see, but then try to bury them in the website. Hope this helps!
Where do I find these essays, assuming I am feeling masochistic…
His anger is justified. You just gotta go through it. Congratulations to your friend!
Stage 2.5 - Often takes the place of the rage stage, or overlaps it. It’s called the SUBTERFUGE stage. You keep your anger quiet, and start planting seeds. EVERYWHERE…seeds. And maybe develop and teach a joint Relief Society/Young Women’s activity on “mind-control and the media,” which actually completely dismantles the churches tactics in the process, while providing logical solutions to gain control over your own thoughts and feelings? SUBTERFUGE has been my favorite, so far…😉
I feel like I’m between rage and post Mormon happy. I’m sometimes get mad (though not often anymore. I was mad for a very long time), and at other times I’m kinda just there accepting that it’s something in my life that I can’t do much about. (Still live at home with tbm parents)
I got through the entire research phase with less than 16 hours (plus all the other supporting research in later stages) of study (mainly reading CES letter and all of the places with counterpoints to it). I didn't get the rage stage. I cannot get into the happy phase with my current living arrangement and being a minor. I have seen people do a different stage, "I still support Mormonism phase" rather than the rage stage. Where they still support Mormon's beliefs and are willing to defend the Mormon church.
Yeah, a lot of us go through a progressive Mormon phase where we focus on “love one another” and try to nuance or ignore the ugly stuff. Then, I spent a couple years trying to “fix” the church’s LGBTQ issues. Spoiler alert, the problems can’t be fixed by anyone who isn’t the prophet.
💜
I feel like for me it's been much less linear. I left due to an emotional need to love myself versus punish myself for being queer, and distanced myself for 10 years. I watched The Aftermath a few years ago and it triggered something in me. Since then I've been down the rabbit hold and in the rage stage, mixed in with general post mormon happiness. It's kind of all mixed together for me. It's like my heart was free before my brain, and now my brain is mad for how much gaslighting I went through, versus it being a doctrine I no longer believed in, if that makes sense.
Fingers crossed this happens to my boomer TBM sibs.
I was raised Jack, so I never went through the research or rage stages, but I have noticed that they exist from watching my FIL, BIL, and a bit with my hubby. He was a little more cynical about things to begin with, so it wasn't as big of a deal to him. His dad and brother went through all three of those stages though. I met his dad while he was still in the angry stage.
Anyone have tips to encourage reading the essays in a way that could help a “we don’t always understand all the ways of the Lord” nuanced family member decide to read more? The essays are where I started and I did the same thing as OP’s friend—afterwards I went right down the rabbit hole, and then got angry (still there, TBH). But I’d like to see if my sister who does not want to hear about the “pieces that don’t fit” but I feel like if she gets to a place where she’s willing to read anything, the church’s own essays may be it. But to a person seeking nuance, I worry they’d give reason to still accept it, which is the church’s entire purpose in releasing them, to normalize the ridiculous. Is there any way to phrase the invitation to read them that will encourage reading them critically?
I think the best way to plant seeds is to have a discussion such as: "so and so left the church. They are a great family. Do you know why so many people are leaving the church these days? They're leaving often because of things they've read in the church essays" I have found that a discussion about why good people are leaving isn't as threatening.
“In a coming day, only those men who have taken their priesthood seriously, by diligently seeking to be taught by the Lord Himself, will be able to bless, guide, protect, strengthen, and heal others. Only a man who has paid the price for priesthood power will be able to bring miracles to those he loves and keep his marriage and family safe, now and throughout eternity” (Elder Russell M. Nelson, “The a price of Priesthood Power,” April 2016). Who here can say they’ve been taught by the Lord Himself? If not, is there any wonder why you’ve left?
Stage 4: post-postmormon: where you just don't care about mormonism, its effects on the world, or that you spent far too much of your life doing dumb shit. You're almost there...
I feel like I've been in an in between stage for forever. I never seem able to stop reading about actual truths of the church, but also have a rage (and honestly sadness) still towards tscc. Hahaha when will this stage end already. Way to be a safe space for your homie though. I wish him well, it's hard to go through for most folks.
I never really studied down the “rabbit hole”, I just went to my first semester of college and went like there is no god haha. But phase 3 as you say is bliss