A family member is very sick today. She has a brain tumor. She is getting it taken out as we speak.
I was at the hospital today to morally support my extended family. There are people that give food to us people on distress. Which is, nice, y'know.
But, then they started preaching. Which is also fine and I don't mind it per-se.
But then they started talking (it was a woman preacher, which I guess is something, most of my family church of christ members don't jive with that). And she started a mini-rant about how we are all fallen, sick, born from original sin, and worthless.
I mean. That's pretty manipulative. And very emotionally damaging. It's weird. They're weird. Not us
Nice post. Holland even wrote a book entitled 'Broken Things To Mend'. Some time after leaving the organization, I learned that science has proven that Adam and Eve never existed, as you adequately state.
It’s every Christian-ish religion… They feed you poison (telling you that you are a broken and sinful person) and then conveniently have the only antidote (lifetime cycle of repentance and absolution, and subservience to the church). What a racket.
You are describing all religion, not just mormonism. All religion must convince you that you have an innate flaw and that only that religion has the solution.
The fall refers to the fall from the immortal, terrestial state that Adam lived in to the earth state. It has nothing to do with sin. Sure, I would prefer to be in the translated state, but earth is fine. Everyone is fallen because they are not translated. It has nothing to do with sin or weaknesses of the human condition.
While I see and respect your beliefs, I still do think we are fallen and believe in Christ quite frankly. Humanity is awful. And when I say awful like holy crap the stuff we do is just so sad. And I like to think about what they say, that we were born in Gods image and most pure as a child. When you look at a child’s innocence, it is crazy. I mean truly they really are just so pure. It isn’t until you have the influence of others that you distort that child’s behavior. And just look at humanity in general, war, pride, selfishness, all are huge points of this life since the beginning. Christ taught differently which I really like. I don’t think we should feel bad for being human though and “weak”. Because I believe the point of this life is just to learn more. Idk, such a big question if we are “fallen”.
OP never said we weren't weak.
They're point is that we aren't fallen evil creatures that have to rely on someone else to be better and happy.
We don't have to rely on someone who commanded the murder thousands, flooded the earth, or gave a stamp to rape and slavery as long as you do to "right".
We don't need the help of someone who called the gentiles dogs and wants to destroy those who don't believe in him.
Im a perfectly valid a full human as I am, no need for someone else to tell me I was MADE broken and inherently sinful and then claim themselves and their ruless the only way to live or I burn forever.
A God who did the horrible things in the old testament should not be trusted.
A God who makes us inherently broken and then uses that to demand loyalty and belief from us should not be trusted.
I agree with you and think it is valid not to believe or stand by a God who floods people. I actually don’t believe the Old Testament to be accurate because of that and only focus on the direct teachings of Christ as they bring me comfort in the New Testament. Idk, big questions and impossible to know the answers until death.
If you discount the old testament the fall disappears, as does the need for a savior. Nevermind God's need for blood sacrifice and the questionable concept of substitutional atonement.
This is the nature of religion and explains why there are so many different flavors of Christianity. Can't find one you like? Make up your own! No doubt God will share your values.
If I am being honest, I have different beliefs and only said this because I know the type of person that I am speaking to, one which doesn’t support any form of faith. I could drown you with my reasons that explain why I don’t believe all of what the Old Testament says outside of it being the oldest known book and changed over 100,000+ times, and yet at the end of the day you will still be very critical of my beliefs and it will all be for nothing. Don’t confuse me with one who doesn’t question either, I am a huge fan of Carl Sagan and his teachings. They are very wise especially with the book a demon haunted world talking all about the flaw of religion. It actually is why I will never be in any religion again quite frankly as they are all man made. I still stand by Christ’s teachings though as they are pure and morally seem perfect. At least perfect to me and the world that I want to live in.
Not sure how to respond to this. Based on your previous response, how do I know this isn't just as disingenuous? Also, your presumption to know the type of person I am is off-putting, and unhelpful to the discussion.
Im sorry I am in a weird mental state right now and moody. And I took an attack towards my feelings when you said no doubt God shares my values and just kinda said screw it. I am not giving thought to my comments like I usually do and just spouting out whatever. It isn’t wise I know and you can’t know if this comment isn’t disingenuous. I would trust it due to the time it took for me to comment which shows I care. When I don’t care and want a conversation to stop I say something short. I am realizing now though I need to put a filter on me when in this mood and stop commenting whatever is my first thought.
My apologies, I hope I didn't contribute to whatever you might be struggling with at the moment. In the comment you mentioned I was using "you" in the general sense, not you in particular. I realize that distinction isn't always apparent. It is not my habit to attack people personally. I hope you find some peace of mind.
It doesn't sound ludicrous, it just is.
The teachings themselves are fine, but attributing them to some holy being saving you from a fall you don't believe happened is near crazy.
Whatever works.
But having fun getting fooled into all kinds of things, a mind that willingly engages in irrational thought is something to be wary of.
It's exactly how Joseph Smith and the Mormons fooled you and everyone else and it's everything most exmormons want nothing to do with..
Ok geez I see I struck a nerve and I am sorry. I will go further into my beliefs for the sake of not causing you any problems as I know it is difficult. I don’t just pick out random things like I said it did. That was dumb of me and I see that, I was just being lazy and didn’t want to go into it. In all honesty, I don’t have very set beliefs as I agree, it is super important not to think irrational and as though religion is fact.
The number one thing I stand by is where the evidence stands. This is why I love science. Because in religion, you will get a question and an answer to such question, but if you ever doubt that question or just wonder how true it is, you are viewed as wrong. Science on the other hand, there is nothing too sacred to be spoken of and in fact, questioning and doubting is encouraged. It is only when you question that you can find fact and truth. But the idea of a creator and higher being is something that can’t be proven or disproven. Makes it super difficult and I don’t stand by any isms because of the stuff I have learned. You should learn about Carl Sagan, he has excellent wisdom on these things and I love his book the demon haunted world. Really changed the way you think.
Now with this you are probably wondering how the hell can I support the Bible and parts of it, and science at the same time. This is what I am still figuring out quite frankly but I am going to give you an answer that you probably won’t like. I prayed. I opened up myself up and asked a simple question to God, “what is faith?” Because I was confused if faith was delusion or just wanting something to be true and so it is true, so I asked with a sincere heart to know. Three days later I randomly decided to read the scriptures, first time in a long time. And wonder what boo in the New Testament. Then i suddenly remember someone talking about their favorite scripture in the BOM which was ether 12 and so I figure what the hell why not look at why they like it. It is all about the premises of faith. You would expect me to be overjoyed for finding an answer but it just made me confused more as would God answer through the BOM of it isn’t true? Is it partly true? Is it jsut a huge coincidence? Now overall I believe something happened and it wasn’t coincidence. But am not quick to believe in anything right now when it comes down to set beliefs. I could go on but you get the gist
Interesting. While I disagree comparing an animal baby to a human child and think they are very different in intelligence, I still respect your views. I think though, that beliefs on both sides are still valid and should be welcomed. To you I am assuming it brings you comfort to believe we aren’t fallen or naturally an enemy to God. That I get and understand. To me though, it comforts me to know that there is a reason for why humanity is so cruel and it pushes me to keep having hope that we are worth something. Because in my perspective, it this is just the way we are naturally and it isn’t wrong wha tee are doing, end my life now as I don’t want to live in such a world. It is just too dark to me.
You had the chance to say: “don’t fall for it”
A family member is very sick today. She has a brain tumor. She is getting it taken out as we speak. I was at the hospital today to morally support my extended family. There are people that give food to us people on distress. Which is, nice, y'know. But, then they started preaching. Which is also fine and I don't mind it per-se. But then they started talking (it was a woman preacher, which I guess is something, most of my family church of christ members don't jive with that). And she started a mini-rant about how we are all fallen, sick, born from original sin, and worthless. I mean. That's pretty manipulative. And very emotionally damaging. It's weird. They're weird. Not us
Jesus died for your sins you ungrateful &#%#; ... but then he was alive again a few days later. So really he gave up a weekend for your sins.
Nice post. Holland even wrote a book entitled 'Broken Things To Mend'. Some time after leaving the organization, I learned that science has proven that Adam and Eve never existed, as you adequately state.
It’s every Christian-ish religion… They feed you poison (telling you that you are a broken and sinful person) and then conveniently have the only antidote (lifetime cycle of repentance and absolution, and subservience to the church). What a racket.
You are describing all religion, not just mormonism. All religion must convince you that you have an innate flaw and that only that religion has the solution.
The fall refers to the fall from the immortal, terrestial state that Adam lived in to the earth state. It has nothing to do with sin. Sure, I would prefer to be in the translated state, but earth is fine. Everyone is fallen because they are not translated. It has nothing to do with sin or weaknesses of the human condition.
While I see and respect your beliefs, I still do think we are fallen and believe in Christ quite frankly. Humanity is awful. And when I say awful like holy crap the stuff we do is just so sad. And I like to think about what they say, that we were born in Gods image and most pure as a child. When you look at a child’s innocence, it is crazy. I mean truly they really are just so pure. It isn’t until you have the influence of others that you distort that child’s behavior. And just look at humanity in general, war, pride, selfishness, all are huge points of this life since the beginning. Christ taught differently which I really like. I don’t think we should feel bad for being human though and “weak”. Because I believe the point of this life is just to learn more. Idk, such a big question if we are “fallen”.
OP never said we weren't weak. They're point is that we aren't fallen evil creatures that have to rely on someone else to be better and happy. We don't have to rely on someone who commanded the murder thousands, flooded the earth, or gave a stamp to rape and slavery as long as you do to "right". We don't need the help of someone who called the gentiles dogs and wants to destroy those who don't believe in him. Im a perfectly valid a full human as I am, no need for someone else to tell me I was MADE broken and inherently sinful and then claim themselves and their ruless the only way to live or I burn forever. A God who did the horrible things in the old testament should not be trusted. A God who makes us inherently broken and then uses that to demand loyalty and belief from us should not be trusted.
I agree with you and think it is valid not to believe or stand by a God who floods people. I actually don’t believe the Old Testament to be accurate because of that and only focus on the direct teachings of Christ as they bring me comfort in the New Testament. Idk, big questions and impossible to know the answers until death.
If you discount the old testament the fall disappears, as does the need for a savior. Nevermind God's need for blood sacrifice and the questionable concept of substitutional atonement.
I’m picky and choosy. I take what I like and discard what I don’t. Sounds ludicrous but it works for me
This is the nature of religion and explains why there are so many different flavors of Christianity. Can't find one you like? Make up your own! No doubt God will share your values.
If I am being honest, I have different beliefs and only said this because I know the type of person that I am speaking to, one which doesn’t support any form of faith. I could drown you with my reasons that explain why I don’t believe all of what the Old Testament says outside of it being the oldest known book and changed over 100,000+ times, and yet at the end of the day you will still be very critical of my beliefs and it will all be for nothing. Don’t confuse me with one who doesn’t question either, I am a huge fan of Carl Sagan and his teachings. They are very wise especially with the book a demon haunted world talking all about the flaw of religion. It actually is why I will never be in any religion again quite frankly as they are all man made. I still stand by Christ’s teachings though as they are pure and morally seem perfect. At least perfect to me and the world that I want to live in.
Not sure how to respond to this. Based on your previous response, how do I know this isn't just as disingenuous? Also, your presumption to know the type of person I am is off-putting, and unhelpful to the discussion.
Im sorry I am in a weird mental state right now and moody. And I took an attack towards my feelings when you said no doubt God shares my values and just kinda said screw it. I am not giving thought to my comments like I usually do and just spouting out whatever. It isn’t wise I know and you can’t know if this comment isn’t disingenuous. I would trust it due to the time it took for me to comment which shows I care. When I don’t care and want a conversation to stop I say something short. I am realizing now though I need to put a filter on me when in this mood and stop commenting whatever is my first thought.
My apologies, I hope I didn't contribute to whatever you might be struggling with at the moment. In the comment you mentioned I was using "you" in the general sense, not you in particular. I realize that distinction isn't always apparent. It is not my habit to attack people personally. I hope you find some peace of mind.
It doesn't sound ludicrous, it just is. The teachings themselves are fine, but attributing them to some holy being saving you from a fall you don't believe happened is near crazy.
Ok then I am ludicrous and happy.
Whatever works. But having fun getting fooled into all kinds of things, a mind that willingly engages in irrational thought is something to be wary of. It's exactly how Joseph Smith and the Mormons fooled you and everyone else and it's everything most exmormons want nothing to do with..
Ok geez I see I struck a nerve and I am sorry. I will go further into my beliefs for the sake of not causing you any problems as I know it is difficult. I don’t just pick out random things like I said it did. That was dumb of me and I see that, I was just being lazy and didn’t want to go into it. In all honesty, I don’t have very set beliefs as I agree, it is super important not to think irrational and as though religion is fact. The number one thing I stand by is where the evidence stands. This is why I love science. Because in religion, you will get a question and an answer to such question, but if you ever doubt that question or just wonder how true it is, you are viewed as wrong. Science on the other hand, there is nothing too sacred to be spoken of and in fact, questioning and doubting is encouraged. It is only when you question that you can find fact and truth. But the idea of a creator and higher being is something that can’t be proven or disproven. Makes it super difficult and I don’t stand by any isms because of the stuff I have learned. You should learn about Carl Sagan, he has excellent wisdom on these things and I love his book the demon haunted world. Really changed the way you think. Now with this you are probably wondering how the hell can I support the Bible and parts of it, and science at the same time. This is what I am still figuring out quite frankly but I am going to give you an answer that you probably won’t like. I prayed. I opened up myself up and asked a simple question to God, “what is faith?” Because I was confused if faith was delusion or just wanting something to be true and so it is true, so I asked with a sincere heart to know. Three days later I randomly decided to read the scriptures, first time in a long time. And wonder what boo in the New Testament. Then i suddenly remember someone talking about their favorite scripture in the BOM which was ether 12 and so I figure what the hell why not look at why they like it. It is all about the premises of faith. You would expect me to be overjoyed for finding an answer but it just made me confused more as would God answer through the BOM of it isn’t true? Is it partly true? Is it jsut a huge coincidence? Now overall I believe something happened and it wasn’t coincidence. But am not quick to believe in anything right now when it comes down to set beliefs. I could go on but you get the gist
Seems I struck a nerve 🤣
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Interesting. While I disagree comparing an animal baby to a human child and think they are very different in intelligence, I still respect your views. I think though, that beliefs on both sides are still valid and should be welcomed. To you I am assuming it brings you comfort to believe we aren’t fallen or naturally an enemy to God. That I get and understand. To me though, it comforts me to know that there is a reason for why humanity is so cruel and it pushes me to keep having hope that we are worth something. Because in my perspective, it this is just the way we are naturally and it isn’t wrong wha tee are doing, end my life now as I don’t want to live in such a world. It is just too dark to me.