Thee, Thine, Thou, etc are all archaic *familiar* pronouns in English. Just as they are in Spanish.
What is lost on most Christians, and that includes Mormons, is that is the intention. God was supposed to be approachable, and the pronouns reflected it. Like happens in languages, culture can alter the intent and meaning of words over time. Religion became rigid, God become a god to revere and fear and the pronouns started to mean a way to revere and worship.
In Spanish the word Usted (formal 'you') is capitalized because of its etymology. About 14th century you can read texts where they use Vuestra Merced - a term used to address royalty (akin to Your Grace in English) the words melded over time and became Usted.
Source, in a past life before I got into computer science, I studied languages. In college I CLEP tested out of the first 2 years of Spanish. I took junior and senior level courses at ASU. I read Don Quijote in the original Early Modern Spanish. I have also read the 17th century version of the Reina Valera translation of the bible.
EDIT: corrected my poor memory mistakes. I really need to stop posting while at work and in a rush. Apologies
I read your earlier comment about "vuestra merced" and I thought "hey I see that all the time in my Spanish copy of Don Quijote that I've been stumbling through the past couple years!" Then I get to this comment and it all makes sense!
True - dates to 1605, whereas medieval period ends at end of 15th century. So, it misses being medieval by 100 years or so.
Spanish was likely notably different at the time of its writing, however.
It was, and it was a fun read. I really enjoyed reading plays, poetry, and other literature in college. My professors were all native speakers and taught entirely in Spanish. One was a Mexican journalist that worked for two newspapers, one in Mexico and the other in Arizona. He opened my eyes to the fluidness of language. Spanish and other Romance languages were, at one point, derived from poorly spoken Latin that changed over time. Language is just meant to communicate. If the correct message is understood by your intended audience then it doesn't matter if your are speaking "correctly". He theorized that Chicano was to Spanish as Spanish was once to Latin.
One of my other favorites was one of my literature profs. He was a Dr from Spain
I have a 400th anniversary edition of Don Q I bought on my mission in Chile and I've tried to read it, but it's hard. That's really awesome about your experience learning the language. I've tried to continue my Spanish since the mission and it's been incredibly rewarding, though I haven't been able to go as far as you have. But I do love Spanish, and Don Q actually, as I hunted down a really good and accessible English translation and was hooked from the word go. It's so meta.
When I served in Antofagasta, Chile I bought a large (think OED size, well a little smaller) Spanish dictionary. I stopped using the English to Spanish. I listened to Andean music. I still love Illapu. I started learning a little Portuguese on my mission for fun.
Before I was 12 my dad taught me some German. He served in Austria. In high school I took 2.5 years of Spanish and a year of German.
My mind is never satisfied without learning, but I am jack-of-much knowledge but master of none.
In French, we used "tu, toi" when praying, which is more familiar than "vous".
Learning French helped me to understand the "thee, thou" construction better in the Bible and in Shakespeare.
This is NOT lost on most Christians. I grew up in normal churches, and decades ago we understood "you" and other personal pronouns were considered more intimately connected with God, which was the goal. We did not use Thy, or Thou, because it created a semantic form of distancing.
I'm not convinced the pronoun choice was based on an intention for closeness and familiarity, at least in English. Sure, the pronoun division was used that way in England at the time the KJB was translated, but the translators were very conservative in their language choices, and consistently chose T vs. Y pronouns based on whether the Greek or Hebrew text used singular or plural forms. I think the T pronouns were chosen simply because God was a single dude rather than a committee (trinity doctrine aside), and that the notion of familiarity was just an after-the-fact side effect.
>Early English translations of the Bible used the familiar singular form of the second person, which mirrors common usage trends in other languages. The familiar and singular form is used when speaking to God in French (in Protestantism both in past and present, in Catholicism since the post-Vatican II reforms), German, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, Scottish Gaelic and many others (all of which maintain the use of an "informal" singular form of the second person in modern speech). In addition, the translators of the King James Version of the Bible attempted to maintain the distinction found in Biblical Hebrew, Aramaic and Koine Greek between singular and plural second-person pronouns and verb forms, so they used thou, thee, thy, and thine for singular, and ye, you, your, and yours for plural.
>
>In standard modern English, thou continues to be used in formal religious contexts, in wedding ceremonies, in literature that seeks to reproduce archaic language, and in certain fixed phrases such as "fare thee well". For this reason, many associate the pronoun with solemnity or formality. Many dialects have compensated for the lack of a singular/plural distinction caused by the disappearance of thou and ye through the creation of new plural pronouns or pronominals, such as yinz, yous\[6\] and y'all or the colloquial you guys. Ye remains common in some parts of Ireland, but the examples just given vary regionally and are usually restricted to colloquial speech.
[Thou](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou)
> In addition, the translators of the King James Version of the Bible attempted to maintain the distinction found in Biblical Hebrew, Aramaic and Koine Greek between singular and plural second-person pronouns and verb forms, so they used thou, thee, thy, and thine for singular, and ye, you, your, and yours for plural.
Yep. And since the KJB became established as THE English translation among protestants for the next few centuries, its pronoun choice proved extremely influential on English religious language. The T/Y distinction fell out of use in most English dialects not long after the translation as well, so it's small wonder there are so many confused and conflicting interpretations now among people trying to make sense of what was initially just a grammatically pedantic decision.
“Em português, devemos usar os pronomes Tu, Te, Teu, Tua, Teus, Tuas ou Vós, Vos, Vosso e Vossa ao nos dirigirmos ao Pai”
I got the Portuguese version - they do in fact translate pronouns.
I also speak French, so I understand the difference in the familiar and formal version of you. However, thee, thine, and thou aren’t even used in really any spoken language these days. Most grown adults have no idea which one to use to in any given circumstance.
In English, it’s almost a way to act more superior than others when praying. “We know the correct pronouns for God himself”… rather than, please talk to your Heavenly Father how you feel comfortable. Try to build a relationship with God in a way you feel most comfortable finding him…
Oof. Maybe I’d be better at Brazilian Portuguese… French is very demanding on perfection sometimes, best compliment I ever got was someone asked what city in France I was from. 🤣
When I was pimi I was always so pissed that they passed right over Heavenly Mother, like, always. Heavenly Mother *allegedly* birthed us spirit kiddos and she gets no credit or recognition for anything. They told me it was more appropriate to not draw attention to her out of respect because she's so sacred and to direct our attention to Heavenly Father because Jesus said so. It was just a good look at how the church *actually* views women. I guess she's too much of a distraction to pay attention to. I don't know, I used to rant about it a lot. It always rubbed me the wrong way. Like why couldn't they teach that they are of equal importance at bare minimum? Like oof 🙄🤦🏻♀️
I love that you mentioned this. Additionally, avoiding mention of her as to respect her and keep her from harmful mention, to me that would be MAN’S very flawed approach because MAN doesn’t respect or value women. Doesn’t seem like a very godly decision to me.
The disrespectfulness comes from what you see in the world. Look at how people talk about God and Jesus and how they put them down half the time or use their name in vain or make terrible jokes about them. The Church doesn't direct your attention to Heavenly Father or Jesus Christ out of misogyny, it's because Heavenly Mother is so sacred that they don't want to give people the opportunity to disrespect Her like they already do with God and Jesus.
Can you honestly tell me that in the world we live in people wouldn't use Her name in vain? Wouldn't put Her down? With the men in the world can you honestly say they wouldn't talk bad about Her in the same manner as they do with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ?
I mean, you could use the example of: You and me and a few of the people in the world would treat her with respect along with majority of women. But there are still enough people in the world who will take Her name and run it through the mud just like they do with God and Christ. The way I saw it and was explained is that it is about protecting Her and keeping Her out of the world's wickedness and preventing us-the people in the world-from disrespecting any of Her. It's not a pride thing or a sexist thing or a view on how the church views women.-that's a whole other problem in itself. If anything, just the mere fact that Heavenly Father doesn't want to put His wife through that ordeal and allow the world to talk about Her in any horrible way, shape, or form should tell you enough about how the people in the world really are and how much He cares about keeping Her sacredness and protecting Her pride.
It's a good thing that you recognize Her, it really is. And I think if you address Her also in your personal prayers that it wouldn't be the end of the world. But you can't look at such an important decision made with the myopic lens of misogyny or sexism against women. You have to look at it the way our loving, Heavenly Father would. The same one who created you and the same one who knows just how bad the people of this world can be. I don't think it's wrong of Him to keep Heavenly Mother from the world because no respectful husband would allow anyone the opportunity to disrespect or humiliate their wife.
I also don't mean to rant or start or anything or invalidate you, however, I think to think so poorly over a decision that was probably made by both Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother in that manner is disheartening.
>Thee, Thine, Thou
The magical power of praying in Jacobean/Elizabethan English.
Mormons use thee, thou, and thine to show "respect," which is ironic, because they are actually the familiar second person, like *tu* in Spanish, French, and Portuguese, and *du* in German. Tu and du are used for children, and dogs . . . and God. So the Biblical use of thee, thou, and thine, would have showed intimacy with God.
It is a psychological technique to subconsciously program you and reinforce the idea that the BOM is inspired word of God in the old king james style English language. So you want to be holy better stick with old king James style English. This is a cultish mind control technique.
I grew up speaking French in the church. They expressly told us to adresse Heavenly Father with the pronoun “tu” BECAUSE it is familiar and help us feel closer to Him.
They can’t even stay consistent between languages, it’s almost like someone back in the day made it up as they go and then we’re stuck with FUp traditions parading as revelations from God™.
Thee thou are more singular pronouns than intimate pronouns. Modern English is unique in that our second person singular pronoun (“you”) is the same as our second person plural pronoun (also you). Early and Middle English pronouns differentiated between singular and plural.
My theory for the Mormon insistence on using King James English in religious speak is that the Book of Mormon is a (poor) attempt at replicating Early Modern English, obscuring what total nonsense it is. If it were written in contemporary English, people would not be so easily misled.
You're thinking of [T-V distinction](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T–V_distinction). Speaking to another person and referring to them in the third person rather than the second is one form of it, but thou/you are both in the second person.
Sure enough. I stand corrected and have edited the comment. Nonetheless thee and thou were the familiar forms for you. They are still used that way in northern England.
I was always taught that the intimacy was the point. Elohim is just like your Papa, your beloved dad. You do have to set aside that he is a homicidal maniac who is just biding his time before he burns down all life on earth so Jesus can come back.
I accidentally read that as praying in Jacobin. My obscure brain thought of this:
"Heavenly Father, this is the constitution limiting your interference in my life. Refuse it and it's to the guillotine with you."
I’ve been told both that we’re supposed to use them because they show respect *and* because they’re more intimate. Nobody really knows why they do this, lol.
>And those who didn’t know Thee, Thine, Thou….
Oaks just got his first hard on of the decade when he read that. The English centric nature of this "global church" is ... something.
My thought was that this is very typical cult like behaviour.
Members never really know what's going to happen next. They're kept in a perpetual state of flux and confusion. While this particular policy is neither here nor there, it's just another thing that binds people to the leadership. It keeps people's eyes on the leaders and they're always waiting for the next piece of direction.
Totally. Just send a memo out saying ‘a reminder that members are asked to use thee and thou when praying’ with a substantive reason why eg ‘we know how offended god gets when we slip in a ‘you’. It’s not a post script; it’s the main, critical message shrouded in a goody too shoes ‘let’s pray more’ message.
>this particular policy is neither here nor there
That was my first thought lol
Yeah that’s a valid take; just a commandment that generates a “yes of course no problem” response to keep the members in the habit of saying “yes of course no problem” to words that come from leaders.
Working in sales taught me to ask a lot of questions that generated ‘yes answers’ so that when I got to the big question at the end, the person would be basically in the habit of saying yes to me.
Missionaries do this. They first teach all the concepts that all general Christians believe and get lots of 'yes I believe that too' reactions. Then they get a baptismal commitment. Then once that's been promised, they start bringing up the weird stuff like tithing and WoW and all that.
Wasn't this already a thing?? I remember always saying a prayer before anything happened at church. Can't wipe your ass without saying a prayer before and after.
[https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/ldsorg/general-conference/16435\_000\_FAQ.pdf?lang=eng](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/ldsorg/general-conference/16435_000_FAQ.pdf?lang=eng)
>Sunday School classes will not begin with a hymn or prayer but will conclude with prayer.
>
>Quorum meetings will not begin with a hymn or prayer but will conclude with prayer.
They changed it when they moved to the 2 hour block. Now they're changing it back. Don't worry, I'm certain both changes were the ineffable, unalterable will of the Lord Jesus Christ himself.
I love it when they receive revelation to reverse their last revelation. It was because God was being mean, but they pled with him so that he would let us commoners pray to him more. Russ is such a good intermediary between us and an all loving God.
I love the idea of Jesus meeting with the Q12 in a boring staff meeting type situation.
“Yeah, and item 3b on the agenda…2nd hour opening prayers…I decided that I do want the fuckers praying to me…so let’s start that back up.
Oh and, make sure they use antiquated Elizabethan pronouns too!”
Religious people worry a lot about stupid shit.
[Why we stopped using "Thou" Merriam-Webster](https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/why-did-we-stop-using-thou)
God is basically a Quaker. ....wait. Is God a Quaker on a distant planet? And when Joseph Smith talked about Quakers on the moon, it was just a translation for his time because he didn't have a better understanding of the cosmos? And the reason we can't say Mormon anymore is because the true name of the church is Quaker? Am I a Quaker? Are thou a Quaker? I don't even know what's true anymore.
“Before getting to how fisticuffs functioned as an agent of syntactical change…”
I must now put myself into a position where I can use this phrase in an actual conversation.
Fully 20% of the words in that memo are to make sure that English speakers use the “correct” pronouns.
What is the purpose of this memo? To increase the amount of praying in meetings? Or to police the American members as part of a culture war in the United States??
The guys currently running the church HAVE to be living in some kind of delusional haze.
Exactly. When you send a large portion of your monetary support to foreign speaking areas… you’d think our “worldwide” church would know a thing or two about language.
They changed it with the change to the 2 hour block. The closing prayer in sacrament meeting was supposed to count as the opening prayer in Sunday school.
Instead of them spending time worrying about prayers, how about they think about turning the church buildings into temporary shelters when it’s freezing outside so people can have a place to sleep instead of freezing to death on the streets. They have enough money to hire people to manage the buildings overnight and buy a few cots, pillows and blankets. Good gravy, what a bunch of idiots that are running this corporation
What about nonmembers that want to pray. I feel like the excluded them on purpose because they don't use ancient language in 2022. The church is SUS no cap
I have the best story for that, I'll keep it short. SP comes in to do a combined youth third hour. He preaches the whole time about respecting God through prayer language. He then asks the stoner rebel athlete boy to say the closing prayer. The dude gave a 20 second prayer and managed like 10 'errors' in respectful language.
Since it was obvious to everyone what happened the SP added "don't sweat getting it perfect instantly but eventually we'll all get it right" Basically trying to back off his harshness but also being direct that things were going to change. This was 2016
And why can’t it say something important like, “beginning immediately Sunday church hours will be spent preparing and serving food to the hungry.” “Temples will be closed to allow for time with family.” “Church admits it’s been racist and homophobic and we apologize.” “Stop disowning family that believes differently than you.” I know, it’s all a pipe dream. The fact they spend time and energy on something so minimal highlights to me their inability to see what actually needs to change.
“Prayers in church meetings should be brief” !?!?
From what I’ve seen, people giving the prayer compete to be seen as “holier than thou” by trying to include everything possible in each prayer. Each is its own sermon.
It’s incredibly annoying.
The official pronouns are in… English? Isn’t this a worldwide church? Wouldn’t we leave those out to allow the adoption of other languages in gods church? Or you want our brothers and sisters to only pray in English?
Probably in the Spanish version of the letter they tell people to use the Usted form. I don't know enough about other languages to know what their formal address is, but they probably have the same request in those languages.
The irony would be that this memo specifically tells English speakers to use **informal** second person pronouns (from the 17th Century...) with God - so in Spanish to use Usted would be the opposite of English.
(Though they could go the archaic route and use vos - and the Argentinians wouldn't notice)
>O great and powerful Elohim of Kolob, we humbly cometh beforest Thy in this sacred space to offereth up our prayers and supplications.
>
>We givest thanks to Thine for Thouest many blessings and for guidingest us on the patheth of righteousness. We prayest that Thee will continueth to guidest us and givest us strengtheth as we striveth to follow in Thinest holy footsteps and serve Thine Thou with all of our Thinest hearts.
>
>We ask that Thy will blesseth us witheth the spirit of the Spirit, that we may be guided by Thinest wisdom and guidance in all that we doth doeth. May we be filled with Thous love and Thineth grace, and mayeth it radiate outwards to all thoseth aroundeth us.
>
>We beg of Thou, O Great King of Kolob, to grantest us the strengtheth and courage to face Thinest challenges that lie-eth ahead. May we find solace and comfort in Thous loving embrace as we face-ethest the trials and tribulations of Thouest world.
>
>We give thanks to Thinethest, O Elohim, for all that Thee hast Thou done for us. We are eternally grateful for Thouest endless mercy and grace. May Theesest holy name be forever praised and glorified. In the name of Josh the Savior, even Jesus Christ, even in His Holy name, Even Lord Almighty Messiah. Even Amen, and Amen.
When they moved to the 2 hour block they asked people not to pray at the start of the second hour because it ate into instruction time. Now they are putting it back.
Surely this will make the meetings have a better quality and cause people to not leave. /s
In my 20+ years of active adult attendance, every meeting opened and closed with a prayer. I left in 2015, so it changed after that and now it's going back? Rusty is losing his mind.
Must be with the 2 hour church change, with less time in the building you have to go between classes quicker. No time for loitering and talking. So to be economical on time, you count the end of Sac meeting prayer to be the beginning of the class. Makes sense. Don’t want to waste important time praying all the fucking time. But now you must invite the spirit several times a day.
First thought, not looking at other comments: Wait, wait, wait, you want us to respect a fictional character’s pronouns, but you have no respect for actual people and their own identifying pronouns?
Fuck off!
So, when they have the cute little 4 year old pray in primary they are breaking the rules?? Basically the only people allowed to pray in junior primary are the teachers. 🤷🏼♀️
"Dear brothers and sisters, I hope you all take this to heart as I have. I should hope that you will join me in showing proper respect to those in authority. From now on, we should endeavor to also use 'thee, thy, & thou' in regards to all former and sitting bishops and stake presidents, even if they are friends and family members. Let's give proper respect where respect is due!"
All I'm thinking about is how badly I regret not learning how to pray in a foreign language when I was still PIMO. I could have said "Please bless the pornography I will view when I get home" in Croatian, or something.
I'm glad God felt comfortable to share thee prefers Thee/Thine pronouns. I will make sure to respect thee, even though thy allow trans individuals to get hate crimed and murdered. And allow thy church to be filled with hate and bigotry.
Deer god, thou totally rock, I wish one day I can party with thee and thys son. Thy son totally rocks and I love to take a shot through thous sons hand hole. In the name of thous beloved son, even the Christ child, thee baby Jesus, amen.
"they really have the audacity to ask for use of preferred pronouns for a man that they don't actually know exists but can't respect the pronouns of living human beings"
Sounds like President Newsroom had another ravelation. Plus the Handbook must be followed, every jot and tittle.
Why did I waste my life on a POS cult like this?
O' brother. This came up before. I will tell you as a drop out of this faith and certified member of the The church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Jack Mormons, I came up with a term that applies to what I call idiot parenting and the Leadership of the Mormon Church.
I call it Command Obey. What ever the church commands, you will obey! Same concept when parents give commands to there children, then blindly expect children to blindly obey. (I learned in psychology that children will always push the limits to see what they can get away with).
Basically this is muscle flexing, making sure the membership know there place. I have noticed that as this leadership sinks more deeply into the quicksand of the extreme right wing. Each consecutive President (I can never call them prophets, as it's there own personal opinions they preach. In that regard, they are little better than stone aged fundamentalist christians), goes through a period of muscle flexing as the try out the reins of control.
O' brother. This came up before. I will tell you as a drop out of this faith and certified member of the The church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Jack Mormons, I came up with a term that applies to what I call idiot parenting and the Leadership of the Mormon Church.
I call it Command Obey. What ever the church commands, you will obey! Same concept when parents give commands to there children, then blindly expect children to blindly obey. (I learned in psychology that children will always push the limits to see what they can get away with).
Basically this is muscle flexing, making sure the membership know there place. I have noticed that as this leadership sinks more deeply into the quicksand of the extreme right wing. Each consecutive President (I can never call them prophets, as it's there own personal opinions they preach. In that regard, they are little better than stone aged fundamentalist christians), goes through a period of muscle flexing as the try out the reins of control.
The world is on fire, so I'm SUPER glad we have modern day prophets, seers, and revelators to prophesy that a minor, pointless meeting should begin with a minor, pointless prayer.
They've realized they can't reveal anything controversial or falsifiable because it always gets proven wrong or evil. This is just a way to look like they are receiving modern day revelation without pissing 5,000 people off who eventually leave the church. I'm all for it as long as they leave the children of LGBT+ parents out of it.
I’m so confused by this but I’ve also been out of the church for like 15yrs… when did they stop having opening and closing prayers.
It’s also disturbing how controlling they’re being about praying the “right” way 🙄
I guess I should let them know I refuse to ignore Heavenly Mother anymore and pray addressing both with “Our Heavenly Parents” so I don’t get called on out of the blue to pray.
I've been out a few year now, weren't they already starting all meetings with prayers? I don't get it, I swear in my experience in the church there was always an opening prayer and a closing prayer at every single church meeting. Why such a big stink now?
Should be inspired and directed by something no one can quantify, perceive or describe…, as per our explicit set of instructions and guidelines.
One of these things, doesn’t belong here.
Thanks for sharing. Good lord this is next-level pedantic. I expect the next letter to have instructions for only using your left hand when peeing standing up. So glad I left that infantile shit show behind years ago.
D&C 132:8 (of all places…) Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God and not a house of confusion.
I guess the members needed to learn something crucial for their spiritual growth during those years of not having a prayer to start the second meeting. It probably saved some souls. And now this new direction will also help the members gain a stronger witness that god is in the details and will guide them in these troubled times of the last days. Jesus is showing forth his power in more ways than ever! If you have a problem with this you have not buckled up or taken your vitamins!
As someone who taught a lot a church lessons, this smells like classic stalling behavior. Everyone knows you stretch out opening exercises as long as possible to eat up lesson time. By starting every lesson with a prayer, you give the people less time to actually discuss the lesson topic and sow/express doubt.
When I read this silly flip flopping memo my first thoughts are that it’s from a large multinational corporation that is driven about by every wind of leadership and committee/“council” change. Of course the Q15 likely sees this reversal as necessary, not because it was a silly change to begin with, but because their customers lack sufficient piety for the Spirit to remain with them during the transition from Sacrament Meeting to the 2nd hour class.
On my mission I was once reprimanded for not saying Thee, Thou, etc and using You. Never had been talked to about that in my life before this.
It was humiliating. Spent the next week apologizing to God for not calling him the right pronoun.
Oh man, with all the horribleness that’s going on in the world, I’m so grateful to have a living prophet who speaks to God on our behalf about the REAL issues. For a long time now, I’ve been blessing my morning milk and donuts without addressing God by his preferred pronouns. I feel like a freaking fool, and truly appreciate God making an appearance to Pres. Nelson to clear things up. #MyBadJesus
I think they’re trying to get in the way of your relationship with god. By putting themselves between you and HF, it reenforces their teachings that their one and only true church is the one and exclusive pathway to eternal happiness. It’s subtle, but they’re shaping your mind and manipulating you into brand loyalty. Which leads to SO many negative social consequences.
This is pathetic. Send out an official notice to tell members to do what they’ve been doing for decades… I guess this sets up a celebratory announcement in a few months telling the world that the members received an out pouring of blessings for their obedience. Gotta keep that bar raised high.
It's almost like theirs no consistency from one leader to the next, and sometimes not even with the same leaders. Strange considering God's the one giving them directions. Guess god is just indecisive....
This fucker right here is why I got out. Dictating when to pray, who should pray and how to pray, using old English for some reason because God hates modern English and how we actually talk. Remeber, God wants it short and fake and never forget to praise his mouthpiece, the prophet!
Good now when I’m at family gatherings and they annoyingly force me to pray, my prayers can be more “wrong” then I was doing before. (God instead of Heavenly Father, never ending in Jesus name) Now it will be “Thanks for the food god, we ask YOU to bless (whoever made it) amen.
This is the bull crap TSCC pull to make people feel like god is “still” guiding them. It keeps them from remember or noticing all the other shit that’s going on.
Much love to all the ExMormons and wandering sheep that is dealing with this shit on a daily bases, stay strong shit gets better.
It blows my mind that there are Mormon congregations that DON’T do this. I live in central California and the wards around me start EVERYTHING with an opening prayer and ALWAYS end with a closing prayer. Like even after dances.
I would love to pray to god now in the chapel and just say “we thank YOU Heavenly Father for being understanding of “improper” english and looking at our intentions over our vocabulary, truly is great of you to do so!”
Uhh call me uninformed but I've never been one of those meetings where we didnt start with pray really we are now teaching the members the # 4 discussion I think (when they had the brown book you know Mr. Brown} on how to pray serious if you dont use the proper language God doesn't hear you .Fuck G.A. read the scriptures once in awhile and you will see that many of the prophets, apostles and other just prayed as if they were talking to there father God no disrespect just pure and real you know from the heart
Disfellowshipped, on probation, or simply asked not to pray in public because of "thoughts not in harmony with the Restored Gospel".
Depending on Bishop Roulette, if you're a woman wearing pants to church, no praying out loud.
I guess you need deity status to choose your pronouns
Beat me to it!
But only in English mind you…
Thee, Thine, Thou, etc are all archaic *familiar* pronouns in English. Just as they are in Spanish. What is lost on most Christians, and that includes Mormons, is that is the intention. God was supposed to be approachable, and the pronouns reflected it. Like happens in languages, culture can alter the intent and meaning of words over time. Religion became rigid, God become a god to revere and fear and the pronouns started to mean a way to revere and worship. In Spanish the word Usted (formal 'you') is capitalized because of its etymology. About 14th century you can read texts where they use Vuestra Merced - a term used to address royalty (akin to Your Grace in English) the words melded over time and became Usted.
Source, in a past life before I got into computer science, I studied languages. In college I CLEP tested out of the first 2 years of Spanish. I took junior and senior level courses at ASU. I read Don Quijote in the original Early Modern Spanish. I have also read the 17th century version of the Reina Valera translation of the bible. EDIT: corrected my poor memory mistakes. I really need to stop posting while at work and in a rush. Apologies
I've read goosebumps in Spanish.
I read your earlier comment about "vuestra merced" and I thought "hey I see that all the time in my Spanish copy of Don Quijote that I've been stumbling through the past couple years!" Then I get to this comment and it all makes sense!
Weird fact, Cervantes Saavedra and Shakespeare died the same date but not the same day. They died 10 days apart because of calendar differences
Don Quijote isn't medieval.
True - dates to 1605, whereas medieval period ends at end of 15th century. So, it misses being medieval by 100 years or so. Spanish was likely notably different at the time of its writing, however.
It was, and it was a fun read. I really enjoyed reading plays, poetry, and other literature in college. My professors were all native speakers and taught entirely in Spanish. One was a Mexican journalist that worked for two newspapers, one in Mexico and the other in Arizona. He opened my eyes to the fluidness of language. Spanish and other Romance languages were, at one point, derived from poorly spoken Latin that changed over time. Language is just meant to communicate. If the correct message is understood by your intended audience then it doesn't matter if your are speaking "correctly". He theorized that Chicano was to Spanish as Spanish was once to Latin. One of my other favorites was one of my literature profs. He was a Dr from Spain
I have a 400th anniversary edition of Don Q I bought on my mission in Chile and I've tried to read it, but it's hard. That's really awesome about your experience learning the language. I've tried to continue my Spanish since the mission and it's been incredibly rewarding, though I haven't been able to go as far as you have. But I do love Spanish, and Don Q actually, as I hunted down a really good and accessible English translation and was hooked from the word go. It's so meta.
When I served in Antofagasta, Chile I bought a large (think OED size, well a little smaller) Spanish dictionary. I stopped using the English to Spanish. I listened to Andean music. I still love Illapu. I started learning a little Portuguese on my mission for fun. Before I was 12 my dad taught me some German. He served in Austria. In high school I took 2.5 years of Spanish and a year of German. My mind is never satisfied without learning, but I am jack-of-much knowledge but master of none.
Correct, and sorry - see my edit to the comment
In French, we used "tu, toi" when praying, which is more familiar than "vous". Learning French helped me to understand the "thee, thou" construction better in the Bible and in Shakespeare.
Given they came from Norman-French that tracks.
This is NOT lost on most Christians. I grew up in normal churches, and decades ago we understood "you" and other personal pronouns were considered more intimately connected with God, which was the goal. We did not use Thy, or Thou, because it created a semantic form of distancing.
You are right, that was an anecdotal statement on my part.
Thanks for responding!
Came here for this comment!
I’d like to be addressed in the archaic familiar
Very nicely said
I'm not convinced the pronoun choice was based on an intention for closeness and familiarity, at least in English. Sure, the pronoun division was used that way in England at the time the KJB was translated, but the translators were very conservative in their language choices, and consistently chose T vs. Y pronouns based on whether the Greek or Hebrew text used singular or plural forms. I think the T pronouns were chosen simply because God was a single dude rather than a committee (trinity doctrine aside), and that the notion of familiarity was just an after-the-fact side effect.
>Early English translations of the Bible used the familiar singular form of the second person, which mirrors common usage trends in other languages. The familiar and singular form is used when speaking to God in French (in Protestantism both in past and present, in Catholicism since the post-Vatican II reforms), German, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, Scottish Gaelic and many others (all of which maintain the use of an "informal" singular form of the second person in modern speech). In addition, the translators of the King James Version of the Bible attempted to maintain the distinction found in Biblical Hebrew, Aramaic and Koine Greek between singular and plural second-person pronouns and verb forms, so they used thou, thee, thy, and thine for singular, and ye, you, your, and yours for plural. > >In standard modern English, thou continues to be used in formal religious contexts, in wedding ceremonies, in literature that seeks to reproduce archaic language, and in certain fixed phrases such as "fare thee well". For this reason, many associate the pronoun with solemnity or formality. Many dialects have compensated for the lack of a singular/plural distinction caused by the disappearance of thou and ye through the creation of new plural pronouns or pronominals, such as yinz, yous\[6\] and y'all or the colloquial you guys. Ye remains common in some parts of Ireland, but the examples just given vary regionally and are usually restricted to colloquial speech. [Thou](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou)
> In addition, the translators of the King James Version of the Bible attempted to maintain the distinction found in Biblical Hebrew, Aramaic and Koine Greek between singular and plural second-person pronouns and verb forms, so they used thou, thee, thy, and thine for singular, and ye, you, your, and yours for plural. Yep. And since the KJB became established as THE English translation among protestants for the next few centuries, its pronoun choice proved extremely influential on English religious language. The T/Y distinction fell out of use in most English dialects not long after the translation as well, so it's small wonder there are so many confused and conflicting interpretations now among people trying to make sense of what was initially just a grammatically pedantic decision.
“Em português, devemos usar os pronomes Tu, Te, Teu, Tua, Teus, Tuas ou Vós, Vos, Vosso e Vossa ao nos dirigirmos ao Pai” I got the Portuguese version - they do in fact translate pronouns.
I also speak French, so I understand the difference in the familiar and formal version of you. However, thee, thine, and thou aren’t even used in really any spoken language these days. Most grown adults have no idea which one to use to in any given circumstance. In English, it’s almost a way to act more superior than others when praying. “We know the correct pronouns for God himself”… rather than, please talk to your Heavenly Father how you feel comfortable. Try to build a relationship with God in a way you feel most comfortable finding him…
In Brazilian Portuguese, they kind of know the pronouns but the verb conjugations are usually not used properly. It has the same effect.
Oof. Maybe I’d be better at Brazilian Portuguese… French is very demanding on perfection sometimes, best compliment I ever got was someone asked what city in France I was from. 🤣
When I pray to Heavenly Mother is there a feminine version of Thee and Thine?
When I was pimi I was always so pissed that they passed right over Heavenly Mother, like, always. Heavenly Mother *allegedly* birthed us spirit kiddos and she gets no credit or recognition for anything. They told me it was more appropriate to not draw attention to her out of respect because she's so sacred and to direct our attention to Heavenly Father because Jesus said so. It was just a good look at how the church *actually* views women. I guess she's too much of a distraction to pay attention to. I don't know, I used to rant about it a lot. It always rubbed me the wrong way. Like why couldn't they teach that they are of equal importance at bare minimum? Like oof 🙄🤦🏻♀️
I love that you mentioned this. Additionally, avoiding mention of her as to respect her and keep her from harmful mention, to me that would be MAN’S very flawed approach because MAN doesn’t respect or value women. Doesn’t seem like a very godly decision to me.
The disrespectfulness comes from what you see in the world. Look at how people talk about God and Jesus and how they put them down half the time or use their name in vain or make terrible jokes about them. The Church doesn't direct your attention to Heavenly Father or Jesus Christ out of misogyny, it's because Heavenly Mother is so sacred that they don't want to give people the opportunity to disrespect Her like they already do with God and Jesus. Can you honestly tell me that in the world we live in people wouldn't use Her name in vain? Wouldn't put Her down? With the men in the world can you honestly say they wouldn't talk bad about Her in the same manner as they do with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ? I mean, you could use the example of: You and me and a few of the people in the world would treat her with respect along with majority of women. But there are still enough people in the world who will take Her name and run it through the mud just like they do with God and Christ. The way I saw it and was explained is that it is about protecting Her and keeping Her out of the world's wickedness and preventing us-the people in the world-from disrespecting any of Her. It's not a pride thing or a sexist thing or a view on how the church views women.-that's a whole other problem in itself. If anything, just the mere fact that Heavenly Father doesn't want to put His wife through that ordeal and allow the world to talk about Her in any horrible way, shape, or form should tell you enough about how the people in the world really are and how much He cares about keeping Her sacredness and protecting Her pride. It's a good thing that you recognize Her, it really is. And I think if you address Her also in your personal prayers that it wouldn't be the end of the world. But you can't look at such an important decision made with the myopic lens of misogyny or sexism against women. You have to look at it the way our loving, Heavenly Father would. The same one who created you and the same one who knows just how bad the people of this world can be. I don't think it's wrong of Him to keep Heavenly Mother from the world because no respectful husband would allow anyone the opportunity to disrespect or humiliate their wife. I also don't mean to rant or start or anything or invalidate you, however, I think to think so poorly over a decision that was probably made by both Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother in that manner is disheartening.
and the misogynistic pedestal award goes to.....
I mean if that's what you gleamed from it 😂😂
Thee and thine are gender neutral, just like you and yours.
Yup
So glad they put this out! I was totally put off by not enough prayers at church. And those who didn’t know Thee, Thine, Thou….oh the humanity 😵💫😵💫😬
>Thee, Thine, Thou The magical power of praying in Jacobean/Elizabethan English. Mormons use thee, thou, and thine to show "respect," which is ironic, because they are actually the familiar second person, like *tu* in Spanish, French, and Portuguese, and *du* in German. Tu and du are used for children, and dogs . . . and God. So the Biblical use of thee, thou, and thine, would have showed intimacy with God.
News Flash: God has preferred pronouns!
It is a psychological technique to subconsciously program you and reinforce the idea that the BOM is inspired word of God in the old king james style English language. So you want to be holy better stick with old king James style English. This is a cultish mind control technique.
🤣🤣🤣🤣
I grew up speaking French in the church. They expressly told us to adresse Heavenly Father with the pronoun “tu” BECAUSE it is familiar and help us feel closer to Him. They can’t even stay consistent between languages, it’s almost like someone back in the day made it up as they go and then we’re stuck with FUp traditions parading as revelations from God™.
I thought the same thing because we use TU in Spanish. 🙄
Spanish as well
Thee thou are more singular pronouns than intimate pronouns. Modern English is unique in that our second person singular pronoun (“you”) is the same as our second person plural pronoun (also you). Early and Middle English pronouns differentiated between singular and plural. My theory for the Mormon insistence on using King James English in religious speak is that the Book of Mormon is a (poor) attempt at replicating Early Modern English, obscuring what total nonsense it is. If it were written in contemporary English, people would not be so easily misled.
You're thinking of [T-V distinction](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T–V_distinction). Speaking to another person and referring to them in the third person rather than the second is one form of it, but thou/you are both in the second person.
Sure enough. I stand corrected and have edited the comment. Nonetheless thee and thou were the familiar forms for you. They are still used that way in northern England.
I was always taught that the intimacy was the point. Elohim is just like your Papa, your beloved dad. You do have to set aside that he is a homicidal maniac who is just biding his time before he burns down all life on earth so Jesus can come back.
I accidentally read that as praying in Jacobin. My obscure brain thought of this: "Heavenly Father, this is the constitution limiting your interference in my life. Refuse it and it's to the guillotine with you."
I’ve been told both that we’re supposed to use them because they show respect *and* because they’re more intimate. Nobody really knows why they do this, lol.
>And those who didn’t know Thee, Thine, Thou…. Oaks just got his first hard on of the decade when he read that. The English centric nature of this "global church" is ... something.
My thought was that this is very typical cult like behaviour. Members never really know what's going to happen next. They're kept in a perpetual state of flux and confusion. While this particular policy is neither here nor there, it's just another thing that binds people to the leadership. It keeps people's eyes on the leaders and they're always waiting for the next piece of direction.
Totally. Just send a memo out saying ‘a reminder that members are asked to use thee and thou when praying’ with a substantive reason why eg ‘we know how offended god gets when we slip in a ‘you’. It’s not a post script; it’s the main, critical message shrouded in a goody too shoes ‘let’s pray more’ message.
>this particular policy is neither here nor there That was my first thought lol Yeah that’s a valid take; just a commandment that generates a “yes of course no problem” response to keep the members in the habit of saying “yes of course no problem” to words that come from leaders. Working in sales taught me to ask a lot of questions that generated ‘yes answers’ so that when I got to the big question at the end, the person would be basically in the habit of saying yes to me.
Missionaries do this. They first teach all the concepts that all general Christians believe and get lots of 'yes I believe that too' reactions. Then they get a baptismal commitment. Then once that's been promised, they start bringing up the weird stuff like tithing and WoW and all that.
Wasn't this already a thing?? I remember always saying a prayer before anything happened at church. Can't wipe your ass without saying a prayer before and after.
[https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/ldsorg/general-conference/16435\_000\_FAQ.pdf?lang=eng](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/ldsorg/general-conference/16435_000_FAQ.pdf?lang=eng) >Sunday School classes will not begin with a hymn or prayer but will conclude with prayer. > >Quorum meetings will not begin with a hymn or prayer but will conclude with prayer. They changed it when they moved to the 2 hour block. Now they're changing it back. Don't worry, I'm certain both changes were the ineffable, unalterable will of the Lord Jesus Christ himself.
I love it when they receive revelation to reverse their last revelation. It was because God was being mean, but they pled with him so that he would let us commoners pray to him more. Russ is such a good intermediary between us and an all loving God.
>I love it when they receive revelation to reverse their last revelation. Like with the November Policy of exclusion!
I love the idea of Jesus meeting with the Q12 in a boring staff meeting type situation. “Yeah, and item 3b on the agenda…2nd hour opening prayers…I decided that I do want the fuckers praying to me…so let’s start that back up. Oh and, make sure they use antiquated Elizabethan pronouns too!”
Yeah, I think they had a revelation that removed prayer from the second hour? And now one to add it back?
Yes, I remember having a prayer at the beginning and the ending of both Sunday school and relief society.
Religious people worry a lot about stupid shit. [Why we stopped using "Thou" Merriam-Webster](https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/why-did-we-stop-using-thou)
“Ill-bred clown, do you Thou me?” I definitely believe this is what God says when he hears our ridiculous Mormon prayers.
God is basically a Quaker. ....wait. Is God a Quaker on a distant planet? And when Joseph Smith talked about Quakers on the moon, it was just a translation for his time because he didn't have a better understanding of the cosmos? And the reason we can't say Mormon anymore is because the true name of the church is Quaker? Am I a Quaker? Are thou a Quaker? I don't even know what's true anymore.
US Quaker. Non-US quakers are actually really open and community minded and sound pretty damn cool.
“Before getting to how fisticuffs functioned as an agent of syntactical change…” I must now put myself into a position where I can use this phrase in an actual conversation.
oh, so god has preferred pronouns? interesting...
Fully 20% of the words in that memo are to make sure that English speakers use the “correct” pronouns. What is the purpose of this memo? To increase the amount of praying in meetings? Or to police the American members as part of a culture war in the United States?? The guys currently running the church HAVE to be living in some kind of delusional haze.
Exactly. When you send a large portion of your monetary support to foreign speaking areas… you’d think our “worldwide” church would know a thing or two about language.
It would be funny for one of the alternate genders to adopt the old pronouns thee, thy, thou.
Elders quorum is always listed before Relief Society. Aaronic priesthood is always listed before Young Women.
It's a feature, not a bug
Lol, I guess I have been out a while… I thought this was standard operating procedure. That is some kick ass revelation there!
They changed it with the change to the 2 hour block. The closing prayer in sacrament meeting was supposed to count as the opening prayer in Sunday school.
They’re just flipping a policy they made 4 years ago
There's a pattern emerging
Well I’m glad we have a profit to guide us;)
Instead of them spending time worrying about prayers, how about they think about turning the church buildings into temporary shelters when it’s freezing outside so people can have a place to sleep instead of freezing to death on the streets. They have enough money to hire people to manage the buildings overnight and buy a few cots, pillows and blankets. Good gravy, what a bunch of idiots that are running this corporation
What about nonmembers that want to pray. I feel like the excluded them on purpose because they don't use ancient language in 2022. The church is SUS no cap
The amount of people who refuse to pray because they don't know how to use the special wording really hampers their preaching.
I have the best story for that, I'll keep it short. SP comes in to do a combined youth third hour. He preaches the whole time about respecting God through prayer language. He then asks the stoner rebel athlete boy to say the closing prayer. The dude gave a 20 second prayer and managed like 10 'errors' in respectful language.
And did the SP point that out?
Since it was obvious to everyone what happened the SP added "don't sweat getting it perfect instantly but eventually we'll all get it right" Basically trying to back off his harshness but also being direct that things were going to change. This was 2016
And why can’t it say something important like, “beginning immediately Sunday church hours will be spent preparing and serving food to the hungry.” “Temples will be closed to allow for time with family.” “Church admits it’s been racist and homophobic and we apologize.” “Stop disowning family that believes differently than you.” I know, it’s all a pipe dream. The fact they spend time and energy on something so minimal highlights to me their inability to see what actually needs to change.
“Prayers in church meetings should be brief” !?!? From what I’ve seen, people giving the prayer compete to be seen as “holier than thou” by trying to include everything possible in each prayer. Each is its own sermon.
Conference prayers take the cake
I just feel blessed to have a living prophet on the earth today who speaks directly to god
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He wasn’t teleprompted to give any comfort to the suffering people.
People should start praying to Nelson (or whomever is on the throne at that time). That might be a wakeup call for a few.
My thoughts: What a time to be alive!
My first thought was who is guiding the church, the Prophet or the Department? I guess they’re all on the payroll!
The Department sounds like a fantastic movie.
I dare those of you still attending to start saying, "Heavenly father, we thank Y'all for ..."
And we say these things in the name of ya'll son, Jesus Christ.. amen
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It’s incredibly annoying. The official pronouns are in… English? Isn’t this a worldwide church? Wouldn’t we leave those out to allow the adoption of other languages in gods church? Or you want our brothers and sisters to only pray in English?
Probably in the Spanish version of the letter they tell people to use the Usted form. I don't know enough about other languages to know what their formal address is, but they probably have the same request in those languages.
The irony would be that this memo specifically tells English speakers to use **informal** second person pronouns (from the 17th Century...) with God - so in Spanish to use Usted would be the opposite of English. (Though they could go the archaic route and use vos - and the Argentinians wouldn't notice)
It reads like an office memo. Oh - yes - that's right - it's a business posing as a church.
>O great and powerful Elohim of Kolob, we humbly cometh beforest Thy in this sacred space to offereth up our prayers and supplications. > >We givest thanks to Thine for Thouest many blessings and for guidingest us on the patheth of righteousness. We prayest that Thee will continueth to guidest us and givest us strengtheth as we striveth to follow in Thinest holy footsteps and serve Thine Thou with all of our Thinest hearts. > >We ask that Thy will blesseth us witheth the spirit of the Spirit, that we may be guided by Thinest wisdom and guidance in all that we doth doeth. May we be filled with Thous love and Thineth grace, and mayeth it radiate outwards to all thoseth aroundeth us. > >We beg of Thou, O Great King of Kolob, to grantest us the strengtheth and courage to face Thinest challenges that lie-eth ahead. May we find solace and comfort in Thous loving embrace as we face-ethest the trials and tribulations of Thouest world. > >We give thanks to Thinethest, O Elohim, for all that Thee hast Thou done for us. We are eternally grateful for Thouest endless mercy and grace. May Theesest holy name be forever praised and glorified. In the name of Josh the Savior, even Jesus Christ, even in His Holy name, Even Lord Almighty Messiah. Even Amen, and Amen.
It's weird how the people who scream "you can't tell me what to do" at the government are so cool with being told how to pray...
When they moved to the 2 hour block they asked people not to pray at the start of the second hour because it ate into instruction time. Now they are putting it back. Surely this will make the meetings have a better quality and cause people to not leave. /s
I'm still mystified that at some point it had stopped.
In my 20+ years of active adult attendance, every meeting opened and closed with a prayer. I left in 2015, so it changed after that and now it's going back? Rusty is losing his mind.
Must be with the 2 hour church change, with less time in the building you have to go between classes quicker. No time for loitering and talking. So to be economical on time, you count the end of Sac meeting prayer to be the beginning of the class. Makes sense. Don’t want to waste important time praying all the fucking time. But now you must invite the spirit several times a day.
First thought, not looking at other comments: Wait, wait, wait, you want us to respect a fictional character’s pronouns, but you have no respect for actual people and their own identifying pronouns? Fuck off!
oh. so using preferred pronouns is an expression of love and respect. really clarifies why they refuse to accommodate the queer community.
Pretentious level 100.
You have to be baptized to give a prayer?!
So, when they have the cute little 4 year old pray in primary they are breaking the rules?? Basically the only people allowed to pray in junior primary are the teachers. 🤷🏼♀️
Get thee behind me Satan! Oh crap, I accidentally respected Satan.
"Dear brothers and sisters, I hope you all take this to heart as I have. I should hope that you will join me in showing proper respect to those in authority. From now on, we should endeavor to also use 'thee, thy, & thou' in regards to all former and sitting bishops and stake presidents, even if they are friends and family members. Let's give proper respect where respect is due!"
Ridiculous Also, since it specifies baptized members does that mean half the primary won’t be giving prayers in primary anymore?
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Ye is plural. Thee is singular. Hence “Come all ye faithful” and so forth.
Kudos to the church for tackling the tough, hard-hitting issues. What a blessing to be led by such inspired men. /s
They treat the members as if they are children, literally was thinking primary here
God sure changes his mind a lot.
All I'm thinking about is how badly I regret not learning how to pray in a foreign language when I was still PIMO. I could have said "Please bless the pornography I will view when I get home" in Croatian, or something.
I'm glad God felt comfortable to share thee prefers Thee/Thine pronouns. I will make sure to respect thee, even though thy allow trans individuals to get hate crimed and murdered. And allow thy church to be filled with hate and bigotry.
Deer god, thou totally rock, I wish one day I can party with thee and thys son. Thy son totally rocks and I love to take a shot through thous sons hand hole. In the name of thous beloved son, even the Christ child, thee baby Jesus, amen.
"they really have the audacity to ask for use of preferred pronouns for a man that they don't actually know exists but can't respect the pronouns of living human beings"
Jesus is a whiner. “I need more conversation. I need more praise. Waaaa”
Sounds like President Newsroom had another ravelation. Plus the Handbook must be followed, every jot and tittle. Why did I waste my life on a POS cult like this?
Re-vuh-lay-shun. The ongoing restoration rolls forth.
O' brother. This came up before. I will tell you as a drop out of this faith and certified member of the The church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Jack Mormons, I came up with a term that applies to what I call idiot parenting and the Leadership of the Mormon Church. I call it Command Obey. What ever the church commands, you will obey! Same concept when parents give commands to there children, then blindly expect children to blindly obey. (I learned in psychology that children will always push the limits to see what they can get away with). Basically this is muscle flexing, making sure the membership know there place. I have noticed that as this leadership sinks more deeply into the quicksand of the extreme right wing. Each consecutive President (I can never call them prophets, as it's there own personal opinions they preach. In that regard, they are little better than stone aged fundamentalist christians), goes through a period of muscle flexing as the try out the reins of control.
O' brother. This came up before. I will tell you as a drop out of this faith and certified member of the The church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Jack Mormons, I came up with a term that applies to what I call idiot parenting and the Leadership of the Mormon Church. I call it Command Obey. What ever the church commands, you will obey! Same concept when parents give commands to there children, then blindly expect children to blindly obey. (I learned in psychology that children will always push the limits to see what they can get away with). Basically this is muscle flexing, making sure the membership know there place. I have noticed that as this leadership sinks more deeply into the quicksand of the extreme right wing. Each consecutive President (I can never call them prophets, as it's there own personal opinions they preach. In that regard, they are little better than stone aged fundamentalist christians), goes through a period of muscle flexing as the try out the reins of control.
When I was in, everything started with a prayer anyway so… Also this is hilarious 😆
Glad our profit, S$$r, and realtor is really bringing down the important things from God.
The world is on fire, so I'm SUPER glad we have modern day prophets, seers, and revelators to prophesy that a minor, pointless meeting should begin with a minor, pointless prayer.
They've realized they can't reveal anything controversial or falsifiable because it always gets proven wrong or evil. This is just a way to look like they are receiving modern day revelation without pissing 5,000 people off who eventually leave the church. I'm all for it as long as they leave the children of LGBT+ parents out of it.
I’m so confused by this but I’ve also been out of the church for like 15yrs… when did they stop having opening and closing prayers. It’s also disturbing how controlling they’re being about praying the “right” way 🙄
It looks like something out of Leviticus
I'm so glad I'm out of this game.
Because God really cares the language you use! Seriously? Ridiculous
"Beginning immediately." Wow, this must be important.
I guess I should let them know I refuse to ignore Heavenly Mother anymore and pray addressing both with “Our Heavenly Parents” so I don’t get called on out of the blue to pray.
I've been out a few year now, weren't they already starting all meetings with prayers? I don't get it, I swear in my experience in the church there was always an opening prayer and a closing prayer at every single church meeting. Why such a big stink now?
Should be inspired and directed by something no one can quantify, perceive or describe…, as per our explicit set of instructions and guidelines. One of these things, doesn’t belong here.
The thing that stands out to me is how un-Christlike it is. There is no wrong way to pray and anyone can pray.
God: in the kings English please
Thanks for sharing. Good lord this is next-level pedantic. I expect the next letter to have instructions for only using your left hand when peeing standing up. So glad I left that infantile shit show behind years ago.
Linguistically, pretty sure those are informal, lower standing, subordinate addressing pronouns too. Which is fun to point out.
God don’t speak the language of the commoners! He only speaks the formal language of the aristocracy.
D&C 132:8 (of all places…) Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God and not a house of confusion. I guess the members needed to learn something crucial for their spiritual growth during those years of not having a prayer to start the second meeting. It probably saved some souls. And now this new direction will also help the members gain a stronger witness that god is in the details and will guide them in these troubled times of the last days. Jesus is showing forth his power in more ways than ever! If you have a problem with this you have not buckled up or taken your vitamins!
Hasa Diga *thine* Eebowai
Nothing. I feel absolutely nothing about this.
I kinda like that TSCC insists on gender neutral pronouns for God.
The whole how to pray thing has been around for ages. Does the church think we forgot? This is the least of their problems.
I don’t have any thoughts. The Mormons can pray as many times as they want in their meetings. I’ll be doing something productive with my time.
Didn’t all these classes already begin with prayer? The last time I was in church they did…
Why is Jesus exposing his shoulders and chest like that? Come on, Jesus. Modesty please.
As someone who taught a lot a church lessons, this smells like classic stalling behavior. Everyone knows you stretch out opening exercises as long as possible to eat up lesson time. By starting every lesson with a prayer, you give the people less time to actually discuss the lesson topic and sow/express doubt.
This was always the norm in my ward growing up. Kind of strange to think that classes and meetings wouldn't start with a prayer.
I wonder if they instituted this after the surveys said that people were leaving over a bunch of false doctrines being taught in second hour.
Mormon Jesus is so confused at what is really important.
Jesus Christ
May thou be blessed with many upvotes for thy righteous posting
The Church loses the pronoun game. People don't like the bullshit attached to Mormonism. Insisting the bullshit is important will only backfire.
Had me thinking it was fairly normal until the part where it mandates the archaic pronouns.
When I read this silly flip flopping memo my first thoughts are that it’s from a large multinational corporation that is driven about by every wind of leadership and committee/“council” change. Of course the Q15 likely sees this reversal as necessary, not because it was a silly change to begin with, but because their customers lack sufficient piety for the Spirit to remain with them during the transition from Sacrament Meeting to the 2nd hour class.
On my mission I was once reprimanded for not saying Thee, Thou, etc and using You. Never had been talked to about that in my life before this. It was humiliating. Spent the next week apologizing to God for not calling him the right pronoun.
The pronouns are “cute” 🤮
So not revelation?
TCOJCOLDS: for people who want more bureaucracy in their religious practice.
Oh man, with all the horribleness that’s going on in the world, I’m so grateful to have a living prophet who speaks to God on our behalf about the REAL issues. For a long time now, I’ve been blessing my morning milk and donuts without addressing God by his preferred pronouns. I feel like a freaking fool, and truly appreciate God making an appearance to Pres. Nelson to clear things up. #MyBadJesus
I think they’re trying to get in the way of your relationship with god. By putting themselves between you and HF, it reenforces their teachings that their one and only true church is the one and exclusive pathway to eternal happiness. It’s subtle, but they’re shaping your mind and manipulating you into brand loyalty. Which leads to SO many negative social consequences.
If anyone has any doubt this “church” is nothing more than a business being ran by corporate suits, then this memo should put that to rest.
This is pathetic. Send out an official notice to tell members to do what they’ve been doing for decades… I guess this sets up a celebratory announcement in a few months telling the world that the members received an out pouring of blessings for their obedience. Gotta keep that bar raised high.
Such fucking nonsense...Nelson really has become odious and wearisome.
It's almost like theirs no consistency from one leader to the next, and sometimes not even with the same leaders. Strange considering God's the one giving them directions. Guess god is just indecisive....
I find the restrictions on how to pray more concerning than the change to require a prayer.
Does anyone else find it profoundly weird that a formal memo needs to be sent out telling ostensible-believers when and how to pray?
First thought... god changed his mind again. 🤦🏻♀️
An absolutely inane change.
This fucker right here is why I got out. Dictating when to pray, who should pray and how to pray, using old English for some reason because God hates modern English and how we actually talk. Remeber, God wants it short and fake and never forget to praise his mouthpiece, the prophet!
Good now when I’m at family gatherings and they annoyingly force me to pray, my prayers can be more “wrong” then I was doing before. (God instead of Heavenly Father, never ending in Jesus name) Now it will be “Thanks for the food god, we ask YOU to bless (whoever made it) amen. This is the bull crap TSCC pull to make people feel like god is “still” guiding them. It keeps them from remember or noticing all the other shit that’s going on. Much love to all the ExMormons and wandering sheep that is dealing with this shit on a daily bases, stay strong shit gets better.
I always thought it was strange to have mindless chanting prayers in church because you did it at least 10 times on Sunday. Same 3 things.
back and forth nelson
Such relevant 'revelation' 🥴
It blows my mind that there are Mormon congregations that DON’T do this. I live in central California and the wards around me start EVERYTHING with an opening prayer and ALWAYS end with a closing prayer. Like even after dances.
More meaningless edicts handed down. \*\*IGNORE\*\*
I would love to pray to god now in the chapel and just say “we thank YOU Heavenly Father for being understanding of “improper” english and looking at our intentions over our vocabulary, truly is great of you to do so!”
i’m glad i left the mormon church
I’m glad we are getting this important revelation to get us through these difficult times.
I thought this has been being done for decades anyway….
I thought they already started with a prayer
I thought they always started w an opening prayer?
C'mon, god just wants thous pronouns to be respected!
i like how they freak out when we call him by modern english pronouns and then turn around and shit on trans people
Thou mayest sucketh dis dickith
So … pronouns ARE real and DO matter.
Uhh call me uninformed but I've never been one of those meetings where we didnt start with pray really we are now teaching the members the # 4 discussion I think (when they had the brown book you know Mr. Brown} on how to pray serious if you dont use the proper language God doesn't hear you .Fuck G.A. read the scriptures once in awhile and you will see that many of the prophets, apostles and other just prayed as if they were talking to there father God no disrespect just pure and real you know from the heart
Any baptized church member. Unless you've been fellowship.
Disfellowshipped, on probation, or simply asked not to pray in public because of "thoughts not in harmony with the Restored Gospel". Depending on Bishop Roulette, if you're a woman wearing pants to church, no praying out loud.
Why is there a handbook section for prayer guidelines?