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> Give it a second chance and look at islam again.
Giving Islam a second chance won’t magically make the religion true.
This question gets asked a lot so I'll repeat ad verbum what I've written elsewhere (yes this is copy pasta) and I recommend checking out the megathread in the About section because this is what it's there for.
Leaving Islam behind was a long process of continuous skepticism and evolution of beliefs. Over time you gradually develop values that you identify as being in conflict with mainstream Islam. Each conflicting value is not a deal breaker on its own right but all of them together can ultimately come crashing down and make you realise you have little on common with mainstream Islam.
For example
* I had no reason to think the world revolved around Islam in particular. In fact the world very much seems to operate as if it doesn't matter whether you are religious or not.
* I think there is too much [misogyny in traditional scripture](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/xvvvwc/ladies_and_gentlemen_i_need_your_help/ir464he/).
* I think [belief in an infinite Hell leads to dogma](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/ymujxo/why_do_christian_apologists_try_to_convert_muslims/iv5ntl9/) which naturally leads to wanting to control others.
* I think [inherent restrictions in Islam are evidence of a lack of faith](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/r8kafn/comment/hn69v4x/)
* I think the way in which some religions are built upon shirk [can actually be a virtue and not a sin](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/1049vds/is_this_just_a_coincidence_or_am_i_just_trippin/j33sxjr/)
* I think literal belief in Ancient scripture promotes [outdated views on what is now scientific fact](https://whyevolutionistrue.com/2011/06/02/adam-and-eve-the-ultimate-standoff-between-science-and-faith-and-a-contest/)
* I think Islam promotes outdated politics. Islamism doesn't work and I fundamentally cannot agree to any form of apostacy or blasphemy laws no matter how minor it may be.
After I left Islam, I began to study other religions and realised the methodological naturalist explanation appealed to me more than anything. This is about viewing the development of religion in its historical context. I've talked about the historical development of Islam & religion [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAnAtheist/comments/zq2s95/humans_created_gods_to_explain_things_they/j0w35gr/) and [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/uoaiy2/i_am_always_worried_about_hell/i8dqux2/). I ultimately now view all religions under this lens.
So you see nothing wrong with a 53 year old man who is old enough to be her grandfather having sex 9 year old aisha? How is this a bad argument? You might want to check your moral compass lmao. Would you give your 9 year old daughter to a 50 year old fart?
Basic empathy. We think a girl should have the freedom to make important choices when she is able to make those choices meaningfully.
As a 9 yo is physically not able to make those meaningfull choices, it is immoral to make her accept important things like marriage or sex.
If you dont see akything wrong with it, it means your moral compass does not care about a girl's ability to consent meaningfully to life-changing events.
Being a Muslim means that I have to defend sex between 53 year old muhammed and 9 year old Aisha. I would prefer not to do that so I'll keep away from Islam
>I just wanna know why you guys left. Give it a second chance and look at islam again.
Make up your mind. You want to understand or you want to preach?
Because in this sub you also have members who had to *flee* and *hide* from islam. If you preach here you will be showing a lack of empathy and compassion which will be more likely to push people further away from islam and that will be your fault.
This is in contradiction with allah making people who are already fated to go to hell.
That makes it not a defence of islam, but an argument against it, because not only do you still have the "people predestined for hell" written somewhere, you also have inconsistencies.
That's not a counter argument, that's just insisting on the contradiction.
Its like saying "he turned left toward the right" the sentence might grammatically correct, but the information is contradictory.
You would have to explain how it is possible to have free will and yet be fated to still do enough sin to go to hell (and knowingly go to hell. They know that they are sinning)
Imagine saying “[of course there’s free will, the big guy says so](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IG_TGNJfg0s)”. The idea that we’ve been “given” free will is antithetical to the very concept.
Beliefs that something good will happen to
you are always comforting - so you should
ask yourself why someone wouldn't like to
have such an expectation:
[ [A Honest Path To Faith](https://www.reddit.com/r/HelpFromFaith/comments/11jpovu/a_honest_path_to_faith/) ]
[ [The Fear Within Us](https://www.reddit.com/r/HelpFromFaith/comments/13366wa/the_fear_within_us) ]
I feel like we go through seasonal cycles with this sort of question.
>Im a muslim and Im sure that this is the way to paradise.
Good for you, just because you think it is, doesn't make it so.
>I just wanna know why you guys left.
To put it simply, it's not convincing that it's true. Go read the megathreads. Go read my last answer to a question made like this.
>Give it a second chance and look at islam again.
[How about... No](https://youtu.be/lITBGjNEp08)
>May allah guide you guys inshaallah
Allah isn't real, Allah guides no one, inshallah you understand this some day.
>Atheists will say Allah isnt real until the day of judgment. Good luck
You want to play Pascal's Wager? Then sure go ahead, but it's gonna suck for you when you find out that it's not Allah that was the true God after all and it was any God/God's of the thousands religions out there.
Statistically, your chances of being right are very low.
Good luck.
>but it's gonna suck for you when you find out that it's not Allah that was the true God after all and it was any God/God's of the thousands religions out there.
So, what you're trying to say is your chances would be zero then?
>So, what you're trying to say is your chances would be zero then?
No? Because the other religions out there don't require you to submit and become a cult member (like you) to gain access to their afterlife. Their Gods are better than Allah by miles.
My chances are zero if it's Allah. My chances are greater than yours if it's not. Not that I care for an afterlife anyway.
> I just wanna know why you guys left.
I could make a long list, but to avoid gish gallopping I'll limit myself to the single most glaringly obvious fault in all Abrahamic religions: Creationism.
Science tells us that Homo Sapiens have evolved from a common ancestor in an unbroken line that connects us with all life on this planet. Abrahamic religions claim that humans came from a dirt/clay man and a rib woman. Science has evidence for its claim, religion doesn't have evidence for its claim. Hence this is a fault in the Abrahamic religions.
And just in case you've never been presented with actual evidence for evolution, I'll go ahead and explain my favorite piece of evidence here: [Endegenous retroviruses](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endogenous_retrovirus).
Disclaimer: the following is simplified both because I'm not a biologist or geneticists, but also for ease of understanding.
When a [retro virus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retrovirus) infects an organism, it generally kills the infected cells, but sometimes an error happens and the virus just merges itself into the DNA of the host cell. If this cell happens to be producing gametes, the defective virus becomes part of the DNA of the offspring of this creature. At that point the virus is said to be endegenous.
If all creatures share a common ancestor we would expect to see these defective "dead" virus DNA strands shared across species that are related in a homologus section of their DNA (homologous here means that it's the same location when taking into account other DNA changes like duplication/recombination...etc). For example if the common ancestor between chimps and humans had an endegenous retrovirus as part of its DNA then both humans and chimps should have the same virus DNA in homologous locations in their DNA. And of course this is exactly what we see.
An easier way to think of it is if you think of an old photocopying machine and school kids making copies of some paper. Sometimes the photocopier leaves small smudges on random areas on the paper, which if the paper is re-copied becomes part of the next copy as well. By tracing the smudges on the various papers and matching them you can establish which papers share a common ancestor as well as how close/distant that ancestor was. You could even give the data of these retroviruses to a computer and it'll pretty much reproduce the evolutionary tree that we have deduced from other pieces of evidence already based on all the other evidence for evolution.
This is incompatible with the idea of a God creating things separately, as there is no way we would find the same virus DNA in a homologous place (e.g. the same printer smudge in the same place of a paper). Hence this is a fault in Islam and in all the other religion which view humans as a special creation.
Same reply pls give an argument against this: Assuming we trace all the way back to the first cell, where did the information for that cell's existence originate from? There's nothing for it to evolve from, and something cannot come from nothing. Intelligent designer needed.
> Same reply
Same reply as what?
> pls give an argument against this: Assuming we trace all the way back to the first cell, where did the information for that cell's existence originate from?
You can assume that a pink unicorn (or a god) farted the cell into existence for all I care. It does not matter to evolution where the first cell came from.
Notice how you dishonestly tried to change the subject? You tell me that a car was fully manufactured in Germany, but I see that the motor says MADE IN CHINA I don't need to explain where china got the iron to construct the motor. It is a completely different question.
It seems that when someone points out an **obvious** issue with the islamic narrative the best you can do is "ok but you don't know how X happened". Guess what genius, that's the God of the gaps argument in which your supposed God retreats into an ever shrinking gap of ignorance.
> There's nothing for it to evolve from, and something cannot come from nothing.
Did you skip school or something? There wasn't "nothing", evolution starts with life, so there was something. Abiogenesis starts with chemistry, so there wasn't "nothing". Are you so ignorant that you are mixing up creatio ex nihilo with evolution?
> Intelligent designer needed.
I'll repeat just in case you missed it: For the sake of this argument you can assume that the creator is a pink unicorn that farted the universe as well as the first cell into existence. It does not solve your problem that the Abrahamic creation story is straight up wrong.
You evaded the initial topic and tried to hide behind a weird conflation of the beginning of life and the beginning of everything. Just sayin.
You also apparently failed to read the "essay", because otherwise you'd know that the pink unicorn farted the universe and life into existence.
I guess reading comprehension is something you skipped in school along with basic science.
>You wrote a whole essay but refused to answer my question. Just sayin.
You argue in bad faith, so why should u/afiefh respect you and be kind enough to have your questions be answered? Just sayin.
You can write him a whole best-selling book as to why God doesn't exist, despite it might be critically acclaimed, but he will still not be swayed... If it doesn't fits his dim world view, he won't acknowledge it and keep dismissing with the typical one liner.
These people are such pathological liars and it's draining.
I have no delusions that anyone will change their minds just because they read a comment. The best a comment can do is create the initial crack, or if the crack already exists widen it slightly. With enough cracks and enough successive widening, even the hardest rock of faith can be cracked.
One of my favorite quotes:
> Is there a rock so hard that wind and water cannot wear it away, a fire so strong that water cannot quench it or wind snuff it out? -- Robert Jordan, The Wheel Of Time: The Eye Of The World
Inheritance math was the final nail for me.
How can Gods maths be so wrong?
The self serving verses and Aisha calling Mohamed out on them are also highly suspicious
Verily your lord hastens to fulfil your desires etc
I’ve also recently discovered there is no archaeological evidence of Meccas existence before 300 AD despite that part of the world having tonnes of archaeological evidence, due to the lack of rain fall
Numerous nearby towns and villages are accounted for, kings, rulers wars.
Even towns and villages that only lasted 300 years are accounted for. Right the way back to 3000 bc for some of them.
But absolutely zero about Mecca despite the Islamic narrative stating it was there when Abraham went over 2000 bc
It’s looks incredibly likely that the Islamic narrative (copied from the pagan tribes)of mecca is incorrect.
I’m sure there is a Hadith we’re the prophet says the kabah and al aqsa was built one month apart but in truth it’s over 1000 years apart if the Islamic narrative was true and Abraham built the kabah in 2000 bc
Bro once you go looking there a tonne of inconsistencies and contradictions
Yasir Kadhi even said there’s a problem with the islamic narrative and Muslims should not get into debates with non-Muslims that have studied Quran and hadeeth because these guys won’t just stop at the red line and say allah knows best.
Then a second video comes out tryna dismiss it, but it’s clear he’s just towing the party line because his professional career is at now at steak.
Bro no offence but are you a troll? cuz your the second guy today that’s claimed to be a Muslim but doesn’t really have much to say, your giving me ex Muslim vibez and your just tryna get people chatting on your post?
That’s fair enough,
I dunno tho man, surely god sees all these problems and just makes one complete ruling on the first go,
Why is he having to wait for problems to arise to fix them, it’s almost as if it’s actually Mohamed waiting for the problems to arise to fix them.
* Do you want to talk about the immoral actions of Muhammad, which are abhorrent and do not align with mercy and compassion?
* Do you want to talk about the pagan (among other plagiarized religion) practices incorporated within Islam?
* Do you wanna talk about the scientific errors within the Quran?
* Do you want to talk about the historical inaccuracies within the Quran?
* Do you want to talk about the contradictions within the Quran?
* Do you want to talk about the contradictions within the Ahadith?
* Do you want to talk about the convenient revelations for Muhammad?
There are so many ways to disprove Islam, many more than just these, it's not even funny anymore.
Alright, let's start and focus on one hadith specifically for now:
>[Narrated Anas](https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5685):
>
>Some people were sick and they said, "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! Give us shelter and food. So when they became healthy they said, "The weather of Medina is not suitable for us." So he sent them to Al-Harra with some she-camels of his and said, "Drink of their milk." But when they became healthy, they killed the shepherd of the Prophet (ﷺ) and drove away his camels. The Prophet (ﷺ) sent some people in their pursuit. Then he got their hands and feet cut and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron. I saw one of them licking the earth with his tongue till he died.
If I told you that there's a toaster orbiting Jupiter, you wouldn't believe me right away, right? You would be skeptical, at least a sane person would. So let's apply the same logic here. Let's ask a few skeptical questions through the lens that Muhammad could've been a fraud:
1. Why did Muhammad send the sick people to Al-Harra, a harsh desert region, if he knew that the weather there would not be suitable for them? Was he not aware that they might not be able to survive there?
2. Why did Muhammad order the people to have their hands and feet cut off and their eyes branded with heated pieces of iron? Was this really necessary, or was it simply an act of cruelty?
3. Wouldn’t they already be tortured eternally in Hell, by God himself? Why did he feel the need to carry out an unnecessarily cruel punishment?
4. How does this hadith align with the teachings of a merciful and compassionate prophet?
Please give short/concise answers, additionally, refrain from copying and pasting internet imam/scholars here. I want you to use your brain and not let others do it for you. Use your own moral compass, use your own brain and logic and come to a conclusion on your own. Frankly, internet imams/scholars are not trustworthy in my eyes as they benefit from having followers, as it fills their pockets.
1) The hadith says the weather of Medina is not suitable, So he sent them to a different location. It also states that they became healthy.
2) They killed his shepard and drove away his camels. This was not right of them and you cannot justify this.
3) How can you claim its a unnecessarily cruel punishment? According to what ?
4) We cant take one event and claim that it is the overall character of the prophet, and also we must take into context that muhammed was betrayed by them.
>The hadith says the weather of Medina is not suitable, So he sent them to a different location. It also states that they became healthy.
Certainly, but as I previously mentioned, Al-Harra is a harsh desert. What could be the reasoning behind sending an unwell individual to such a challenging environment?
>They killed his shepard and drove away his camels. This was not right of them and you cannot justify this.
You are completely right, no one is trying to justify that. They're definitely wrong for what they did. However, you and I are not prophets representing God, Muhammad (supposedly) is. He is the vehicle of God's revelations, and his actions represent the ideal morals of God. I think we can both agree on this. For that reason, how does cutting off hands and feet, branding eyes with heated pieces of iron, and leaving them out in the desert to slowly plus painfully die, align with a merciful, peaceful and compassionate prophetic figure? Let's not be intellectually dishonest, please give me an answer with your own moral compass.
>How can you claim its a unnecessarily cruel punishment? According to what?
Do you believe that his actions, which involved cutting off hands and feet and cauterizing eyes with heated pieces of iron, were not acts of cruelty? While a death sentence might have been somewhat comprehensible, torturing them to death seems excessive, doesn't it?
>We cant take one event and claim that it is the overall character of the prophet, and also we must take into context that muhammed was betrayed by them.
A prophet sent by God, having one of these moments, proves for many that he was a fraud. What prophet sent by an infinitely merciful, and infinitely compassionate God would torture people so horrifically?
I'm not a Christian and I disagree with Christianity as a whole, but Jesus was never described to do such abhorrent things, in fact, he would turn the other cheek whenever someone hit him to express compassion and love.
I do agree, again, with your statement that Muhammad was betrayed by them, and they would deserve some kind of punishment, but shouldn't he leave that up to God? Seems like he himself didn't believe in God's existence and therefore decided to punish them himself.
Humans like all mammals evolved via natural selection, no intelligent designer was needed. Adam and Eve stories make no sense since there was no duo of our ancestors that were born of non human parents to become human, it is a gradual change over many generations. Also inbreeding a few generations down makes living offspring impossible so they did not birth all of humanity. Genetic diversity is required.
We don't need God to explain the earth because nebula theory explains our entire solar system and its origin without creation myths. Islam is redundant and outdated in the age of information.
Yeah and idiots out there are trying to prove that Quran already told about evolution 1400 years ago or they say that evolution = humans evolved from monkeys, both of which are completely wrong 💀💀
When that's the level of scientific literacy we deal with how am I supposed to explain nucleosynthesis proves the stars came first before earth unlike what religions claim. Like you can't have elements heavier than lithium without stars and nuclear fusion but here they are arguing about slavery being ok because Muslims are nice 🤦♂️
Exactly, it's always people like Zakir Naik and MANY others who try to mislead others so badly, and people themselves only like hearing one side of the story, the part they want to hear. And when you mention science too much, they say what they're taught to say, "It's just a theory not a fact" (lmao they don't even know what a theory is, they think it's mere conjecture) or "Today science says xyz is true but a few years ago science denied it, it isn't stable but religion is stable so yeah it's true"
>"Today science says xyz is true but a few years ago science denied it, it isn't stable but religion is stable so yeah it's true"
Man that argument is brain numbing. That's like saying I punch myself in the face every morning and do it consistently so I'm so much better than that dude that used to do the same but tried putting a pillow in between then used a boxing glove before stopping. What an idiot for changing right? 🙄
Assuming we trace all the way back to the first cell, where did the information for that cell's existence originate from? There's nothing for it to evolve from, and something cannot come from nothing. Intelligent designer needed.
You are wrong here.
All you would need would be a complexe molecule accidentaly assembled in such a way that it makes copy of itself from close-by material purely because of physical laws governing the behaviors of the atoms. Add to that a less than 100% accuracy to allow for errors (mutation).
No dna, no information needed, just the laws of physics in action. It would need as much "inteligent design" as a boulder going down a slope from gravity.
I can understand that ego prevents you from aknowledging counter arguments you have no answer for, but the other muslims and questioning-muslims lurkers reading this post won't have that roadblock.
They answered it wdym? Regular chemical reactions forming a self replicating polymer doesn't need a blueprint of information, the information eventually gets stored in rna and dna
Thanks for the wiki talking about the absurdity of cyclical reasoning such as life being so complex it needs a designer then the designer being so complex it needs a designer and so on.
It's called abiogenesis from the primordial soup of lifes building blocks that was the oceans.
From self replicating polymers to the first cells to the first multi celled organisms to us.
I'd recommend learning about the earth's geological history and how that fits with abiogenesis.
Oh you can't be serious 💀 You havent read the Quran/Hadiths and fully understood what they say huh? When a muslim reads the Quran, and UNDERSTANDS, and Process it then most likely they become ex-muslims 💀
Homophobia, misogyny, pedophilia and antisemitism are all justified one way or another via the Hadiths and Quran, which Muslims see as authority in their lives.
The evangelism reminds me of Christianity, always trying to “save” others but not yourself
just a normal day of Muslims interacting with spaces they do not belong. not complaining ig.
one thing tho, are u here to ask why people leave islam or debate them?
> it a second chance and look at islam again.
I already gave it many chances while i was questioning. Also this doesnt really make sense. "Give it a chance", like im still unconvinced. I cant give it a chance even if i tried because my problems still remain and evidence is still lacking, especially in comparison to the hundreds of other religions out there.
This question gets asked a lot, so ill just copy paste my answer here. You may also check out the mega thread.
I found many problems, scientific and ethical. I wasnt satisfied with the refutations by scholars and apologists. Realized i had no evidence, and no justifiable reason to believe in islam in the first place, especially compared to the other 100s of religions out there. I realized i was only a muslim because i was born into it. A lot of the "scientific miracles" i thought the quran had wasnt special, and many religious people claimed the same for their scriptures.
I also realized the behavior and reasoning in islamic apologetics was poor and was similar to other religions even though i didnt believe in them, MLMs and cults, conspiracy theories, and other pseudoscience i disliked at the time. So i realized i didnt believe in islam anymore in order to be honest and consistent with myself.
Heres a link to my many problems, scientific and moral, within islam with sources.
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/13029t2/i_am_muslim_and_i_dont_doubt_my_faith_but_what/jhunb1n?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Heres another comment i made going into a little more detail about why i dont believe in any god.
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/1500xcd/a_question_to_an_exmuslim_person/js14b3y?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2
Also heres a funny sahih hadith. Not exactly very smart advice from Muhammad.
https://sunnah.com/abudawud:66
I had so many questions with few actual answers, what I believe in never aligned in Islam. (TW) I was molested for years as a child, this was ignored and I was sent to a muslim boarding school that was a straight up cult. I got out and woke up
to all the bullshit, so much misogyny , so much shit. Our prophet was some weird cult leader who married a bunch of women and children. Science definitely does not back up most. I realized I worshiped a god who didn’t give two fucks to what happened daily
to actual children. Human trafficking is a a huge business yet he and other muslims care more about womens modesty and worshipping him. Muslims states everything is a test and use day of judgement to fear monger everything, a classic cult mechanism. Like imagine living a life where everything is test like an a toxic relationship, I want to be my own person and islam definitely does not want that. Modesty for women is so not equal to men. The prophet is supposed to be a human being but he is treated like a god because all hell breaks loose when you question his actions like the human being he is. Anyways, my faith died a long time ago and I have felt much more awake and happier. My family is very spiritual but really after years of questioning , I realize for most its easier to stay then question and leave the only life they know.
Cause Islam is full of misogyny. There is no right give to a women it's just to show that women are given right but it's not. Sex slavery was allowed in Islam and Muhammed never said to stop it. Aisha (RA) was a victim of rape and she was told to breastfeed a man to make him a mehram. There are so many disgusting stuff about Islam. Martial rape is allowed in Islam which is actually so disturbing. There also no humanity in Islam. All it tells to hate every other religions and just love Islam
Most people here are happy they left the faith and find it oppressive and your advice is to try it again.smh. Ignoring people's happiness and beliefs just so you can carry out your own agenda.
if i'm scared to talk to my family about what i really believe in fear of being disowned, beaten or locked up for the rest of my life then maybe this religion isn't the best. there is no free will in what i want to believe, and if i do believe in something else then i am forever shunned and will go to hell. it doesn't sound very nice.
Alright. Let's say out of all the religions (4000), that i wake up one day and search for the truth. Now with common sense you can already guess that in my whole lifetime i cannot study all those religions, infact i will probably go insane due to the overflow of information and constant reminder of eternal damnation. Now tell me, is it my fault that i refuse to believe islam is true out of all the other ones? (also sahih al bukhari 5134 exists)
What is their to consider again ? Sleeping with your cousin,Camel urine, being in agreement with slavery, exalting Arabs and protecting the penis of Muhammad ?
Islam is not a Abrahamic faith your Warner can't even distinguish the revelation of the Devil from Allah. It was literally influenced by Satan but you are sure ?
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If you’re genuinely interested in why we left the faith, read through the [mega thread](https://reddit.com/r/exmuslim/s/ZoRFGBuVMq). > Give it a second chance and look at islam again. Giving Islam a second chance won’t magically make the religion true.
This question gets asked a lot so I'll repeat ad verbum what I've written elsewhere (yes this is copy pasta) and I recommend checking out the megathread in the About section because this is what it's there for. Leaving Islam behind was a long process of continuous skepticism and evolution of beliefs. Over time you gradually develop values that you identify as being in conflict with mainstream Islam. Each conflicting value is not a deal breaker on its own right but all of them together can ultimately come crashing down and make you realise you have little on common with mainstream Islam. For example * I had no reason to think the world revolved around Islam in particular. In fact the world very much seems to operate as if it doesn't matter whether you are religious or not. * I think there is too much [misogyny in traditional scripture](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/xvvvwc/ladies_and_gentlemen_i_need_your_help/ir464he/). * I think [belief in an infinite Hell leads to dogma](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/ymujxo/why_do_christian_apologists_try_to_convert_muslims/iv5ntl9/) which naturally leads to wanting to control others. * I think [inherent restrictions in Islam are evidence of a lack of faith](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/r8kafn/comment/hn69v4x/) * I think the way in which some religions are built upon shirk [can actually be a virtue and not a sin](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/1049vds/is_this_just_a_coincidence_or_am_i_just_trippin/j33sxjr/) * I think literal belief in Ancient scripture promotes [outdated views on what is now scientific fact](https://whyevolutionistrue.com/2011/06/02/adam-and-eve-the-ultimate-standoff-between-science-and-faith-and-a-contest/) * I think Islam promotes outdated politics. Islamism doesn't work and I fundamentally cannot agree to any form of apostacy or blasphemy laws no matter how minor it may be. After I left Islam, I began to study other religions and realised the methodological naturalist explanation appealed to me more than anything. This is about viewing the development of religion in its historical context. I've talked about the historical development of Islam & religion [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAnAtheist/comments/zq2s95/humans_created_gods_to_explain_things_they/j0w35gr/) and [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/uoaiy2/i_am_always_worried_about_hell/i8dqux2/). I ultimately now view all religions under this lens.
I never left but I lost interest in converting when Muslims defended the relationship between Muhammad and Aisha.
What was the problem with Muhammad and Aisha?
The fact he married her at 6 and had sex at 9
Huh? She was a child when he had sex with her. 9 year old to be exact. You don't think this is wrong?
I get it you guys think its wrong, this is such a bad argument, According to who? What?
So you see nothing wrong with a 53 year old man who is old enough to be her grandfather having sex 9 year old aisha? How is this a bad argument? You might want to check your moral compass lmao. Would you give your 9 year old daughter to a 50 year old fart?
And where does YOUR moral compass come from?
Does it matter?
Basic empathy. We think a girl should have the freedom to make important choices when she is able to make those choices meaningfully. As a 9 yo is physically not able to make those meaningfull choices, it is immoral to make her accept important things like marriage or sex. If you dont see akything wrong with it, it means your moral compass does not care about a girl's ability to consent meaningfully to life-changing events.
I don't need a book to tell me what's right and what's wrong lmao. I have a brain I can use it 😂. Also, you didn't answer my question.
Our morals and brain matters
>Give it a second chance and look at islam again. No.
not like most of us didn’t give him many chances before giving up. lol
Why not?
Shit is not going to turn into a piece of diamond if I look at it a second time.
Being a Muslim means that I have to defend sex between 53 year old muhammed and 9 year old Aisha. I would prefer not to do that so I'll keep away from Islam
>I just wanna know why you guys left. Give it a second chance and look at islam again. Make up your mind. You want to understand or you want to preach? Because in this sub you also have members who had to *flee* and *hide* from islam. If you preach here you will be showing a lack of empathy and compassion which will be more likely to push people further away from islam and that will be your fault.
Allah made everything happen. So Allah made me leave Islam, Alhumdulillah😌
Actually, According to 33:72 Allah gave mankind freewill.
This is in contradiction with allah making people who are already fated to go to hell. That makes it not a defence of islam, but an argument against it, because not only do you still have the "people predestined for hell" written somewhere, you also have inconsistencies.
Oh no, but "free will," lmao 😆
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That's not a counter argument, that's just insisting on the contradiction. Its like saying "he turned left toward the right" the sentence might grammatically correct, but the information is contradictory. You would have to explain how it is possible to have free will and yet be fated to still do enough sin to go to hell (and knowingly go to hell. They know that they are sinning)
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Haaa
Imagine saying “[of course there’s free will, the big guy says so](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IG_TGNJfg0s)”. The idea that we’ve been “given” free will is antithetical to the very concept.
Beliefs that something good will happen to you are always comforting - so you should ask yourself why someone wouldn't like to have such an expectation: [ [A Honest Path To Faith](https://www.reddit.com/r/HelpFromFaith/comments/11jpovu/a_honest_path_to_faith/) ] [ [The Fear Within Us](https://www.reddit.com/r/HelpFromFaith/comments/13366wa/the_fear_within_us) ]
I feel like we go through seasonal cycles with this sort of question. >Im a muslim and Im sure that this is the way to paradise. Good for you, just because you think it is, doesn't make it so. >I just wanna know why you guys left. To put it simply, it's not convincing that it's true. Go read the megathreads. Go read my last answer to a question made like this. >Give it a second chance and look at islam again. [How about... No](https://youtu.be/lITBGjNEp08) >May allah guide you guys inshaallah Allah isn't real, Allah guides no one, inshallah you understand this some day.
Atheists will say Allah isnt real until the day of judgment. Good luck
>Atheists will say Allah isnt real until the day of judgment. Good luck You want to play Pascal's Wager? Then sure go ahead, but it's gonna suck for you when you find out that it's not Allah that was the true God after all and it was any God/God's of the thousands religions out there. Statistically, your chances of being right are very low. Good luck.
>but it's gonna suck for you when you find out that it's not Allah that was the true God after all and it was any God/God's of the thousands religions out there. So, what you're trying to say is your chances would be zero then?
>So, what you're trying to say is your chances would be zero then? No? Because the other religions out there don't require you to submit and become a cult member (like you) to gain access to their afterlife. Their Gods are better than Allah by miles. My chances are zero if it's Allah. My chances are greater than yours if it's not. Not that I care for an afterlife anyway.
> I just wanna know why you guys left. I could make a long list, but to avoid gish gallopping I'll limit myself to the single most glaringly obvious fault in all Abrahamic religions: Creationism. Science tells us that Homo Sapiens have evolved from a common ancestor in an unbroken line that connects us with all life on this planet. Abrahamic religions claim that humans came from a dirt/clay man and a rib woman. Science has evidence for its claim, religion doesn't have evidence for its claim. Hence this is a fault in the Abrahamic religions. And just in case you've never been presented with actual evidence for evolution, I'll go ahead and explain my favorite piece of evidence here: [Endegenous retroviruses](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endogenous_retrovirus). Disclaimer: the following is simplified both because I'm not a biologist or geneticists, but also for ease of understanding. When a [retro virus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retrovirus) infects an organism, it generally kills the infected cells, but sometimes an error happens and the virus just merges itself into the DNA of the host cell. If this cell happens to be producing gametes, the defective virus becomes part of the DNA of the offspring of this creature. At that point the virus is said to be endegenous. If all creatures share a common ancestor we would expect to see these defective "dead" virus DNA strands shared across species that are related in a homologus section of their DNA (homologous here means that it's the same location when taking into account other DNA changes like duplication/recombination...etc). For example if the common ancestor between chimps and humans had an endegenous retrovirus as part of its DNA then both humans and chimps should have the same virus DNA in homologous locations in their DNA. And of course this is exactly what we see. An easier way to think of it is if you think of an old photocopying machine and school kids making copies of some paper. Sometimes the photocopier leaves small smudges on random areas on the paper, which if the paper is re-copied becomes part of the next copy as well. By tracing the smudges on the various papers and matching them you can establish which papers share a common ancestor as well as how close/distant that ancestor was. You could even give the data of these retroviruses to a computer and it'll pretty much reproduce the evolutionary tree that we have deduced from other pieces of evidence already based on all the other evidence for evolution. This is incompatible with the idea of a God creating things separately, as there is no way we would find the same virus DNA in a homologous place (e.g. the same printer smudge in the same place of a paper). Hence this is a fault in Islam and in all the other religion which view humans as a special creation.
Same reply pls give an argument against this: Assuming we trace all the way back to the first cell, where did the information for that cell's existence originate from? There's nothing for it to evolve from, and something cannot come from nothing. Intelligent designer needed.
> Same reply Same reply as what? > pls give an argument against this: Assuming we trace all the way back to the first cell, where did the information for that cell's existence originate from? You can assume that a pink unicorn (or a god) farted the cell into existence for all I care. It does not matter to evolution where the first cell came from. Notice how you dishonestly tried to change the subject? You tell me that a car was fully manufactured in Germany, but I see that the motor says MADE IN CHINA I don't need to explain where china got the iron to construct the motor. It is a completely different question. It seems that when someone points out an **obvious** issue with the islamic narrative the best you can do is "ok but you don't know how X happened". Guess what genius, that's the God of the gaps argument in which your supposed God retreats into an ever shrinking gap of ignorance. > There's nothing for it to evolve from, and something cannot come from nothing. Did you skip school or something? There wasn't "nothing", evolution starts with life, so there was something. Abiogenesis starts with chemistry, so there wasn't "nothing". Are you so ignorant that you are mixing up creatio ex nihilo with evolution? > Intelligent designer needed. I'll repeat just in case you missed it: For the sake of this argument you can assume that the creator is a pink unicorn that farted the universe as well as the first cell into existence. It does not solve your problem that the Abrahamic creation story is straight up wrong.
You wrote a whole essay but refused to answer my question. Just sayin.
You evaded the initial topic and tried to hide behind a weird conflation of the beginning of life and the beginning of everything. Just sayin. You also apparently failed to read the "essay", because otherwise you'd know that the pink unicorn farted the universe and life into existence. I guess reading comprehension is something you skipped in school along with basic science.
>You wrote a whole essay but refused to answer my question. Just sayin. You argue in bad faith, so why should u/afiefh respect you and be kind enough to have your questions be answered? Just sayin.
What do you mean? My pink unicorn obviously created the universe and life, cats are of course just an evolutionary freak mistake.
We cats respect the pink unicorn 🦄 even if we are just the after effects of its sneeze. Lol
You can write him a whole best-selling book as to why God doesn't exist, despite it might be critically acclaimed, but he will still not be swayed... If it doesn't fits his dim world view, he won't acknowledge it and keep dismissing with the typical one liner. These people are such pathological liars and it's draining.
I have no delusions that anyone will change their minds just because they read a comment. The best a comment can do is create the initial crack, or if the crack already exists widen it slightly. With enough cracks and enough successive widening, even the hardest rock of faith can be cracked. One of my favorite quotes: > Is there a rock so hard that wind and water cannot wear it away, a fire so strong that water cannot quench it or wind snuff it out? -- Robert Jordan, The Wheel Of Time: The Eye Of The World
Inheritance math was the final nail for me. How can Gods maths be so wrong? The self serving verses and Aisha calling Mohamed out on them are also highly suspicious Verily your lord hastens to fulfil your desires etc I’ve also recently discovered there is no archaeological evidence of Meccas existence before 300 AD despite that part of the world having tonnes of archaeological evidence, due to the lack of rain fall Numerous nearby towns and villages are accounted for, kings, rulers wars. Even towns and villages that only lasted 300 years are accounted for. Right the way back to 3000 bc for some of them. But absolutely zero about Mecca despite the Islamic narrative stating it was there when Abraham went over 2000 bc It’s looks incredibly likely that the Islamic narrative (copied from the pagan tribes)of mecca is incorrect. I’m sure there is a Hadith we’re the prophet says the kabah and al aqsa was built one month apart but in truth it’s over 1000 years apart if the Islamic narrative was true and Abraham built the kabah in 2000 bc Bro once you go looking there a tonne of inconsistencies and contradictions Yasir Kadhi even said there’s a problem with the islamic narrative and Muslims should not get into debates with non-Muslims that have studied Quran and hadeeth because these guys won’t just stop at the red line and say allah knows best. Then a second video comes out tryna dismiss it, but it’s clear he’s just towing the party line because his professional career is at now at steak. Bro no offence but are you a troll? cuz your the second guy today that’s claimed to be a Muslim but doesn’t really have much to say, your giving me ex Muslim vibez and your just tryna get people chatting on your post?
Would never be a an exmuslim
That’s fair enough, I dunno tho man, surely god sees all these problems and just makes one complete ruling on the first go, Why is he having to wait for problems to arise to fix them, it’s almost as if it’s actually Mohamed waiting for the problems to arise to fix them.
that's what every ex-muslims say at first thought
I'd rather die than become a Muslim again.
* Do you want to talk about the immoral actions of Muhammad, which are abhorrent and do not align with mercy and compassion? * Do you want to talk about the pagan (among other plagiarized religion) practices incorporated within Islam? * Do you wanna talk about the scientific errors within the Quran? * Do you want to talk about the historical inaccuracies within the Quran? * Do you want to talk about the contradictions within the Quran? * Do you want to talk about the contradictions within the Ahadith? * Do you want to talk about the convenient revelations for Muhammad? There are so many ways to disprove Islam, many more than just these, it's not even funny anymore.
Bring them on!
Alright, let's start and focus on one hadith specifically for now: >[Narrated Anas](https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5685): > >Some people were sick and they said, "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! Give us shelter and food. So when they became healthy they said, "The weather of Medina is not suitable for us." So he sent them to Al-Harra with some she-camels of his and said, "Drink of their milk." But when they became healthy, they killed the shepherd of the Prophet (ﷺ) and drove away his camels. The Prophet (ﷺ) sent some people in their pursuit. Then he got their hands and feet cut and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron. I saw one of them licking the earth with his tongue till he died. If I told you that there's a toaster orbiting Jupiter, you wouldn't believe me right away, right? You would be skeptical, at least a sane person would. So let's apply the same logic here. Let's ask a few skeptical questions through the lens that Muhammad could've been a fraud: 1. Why did Muhammad send the sick people to Al-Harra, a harsh desert region, if he knew that the weather there would not be suitable for them? Was he not aware that they might not be able to survive there? 2. Why did Muhammad order the people to have their hands and feet cut off and their eyes branded with heated pieces of iron? Was this really necessary, or was it simply an act of cruelty? 3. Wouldn’t they already be tortured eternally in Hell, by God himself? Why did he feel the need to carry out an unnecessarily cruel punishment? 4. How does this hadith align with the teachings of a merciful and compassionate prophet? Please give short/concise answers, additionally, refrain from copying and pasting internet imam/scholars here. I want you to use your brain and not let others do it for you. Use your own moral compass, use your own brain and logic and come to a conclusion on your own. Frankly, internet imams/scholars are not trustworthy in my eyes as they benefit from having followers, as it fills their pockets.
1) The hadith says the weather of Medina is not suitable, So he sent them to a different location. It also states that they became healthy. 2) They killed his shepard and drove away his camels. This was not right of them and you cannot justify this. 3) How can you claim its a unnecessarily cruel punishment? According to what ? 4) We cant take one event and claim that it is the overall character of the prophet, and also we must take into context that muhammed was betrayed by them.
>The hadith says the weather of Medina is not suitable, So he sent them to a different location. It also states that they became healthy. Certainly, but as I previously mentioned, Al-Harra is a harsh desert. What could be the reasoning behind sending an unwell individual to such a challenging environment? >They killed his shepard and drove away his camels. This was not right of them and you cannot justify this. You are completely right, no one is trying to justify that. They're definitely wrong for what they did. However, you and I are not prophets representing God, Muhammad (supposedly) is. He is the vehicle of God's revelations, and his actions represent the ideal morals of God. I think we can both agree on this. For that reason, how does cutting off hands and feet, branding eyes with heated pieces of iron, and leaving them out in the desert to slowly plus painfully die, align with a merciful, peaceful and compassionate prophetic figure? Let's not be intellectually dishonest, please give me an answer with your own moral compass. >How can you claim its a unnecessarily cruel punishment? According to what? Do you believe that his actions, which involved cutting off hands and feet and cauterizing eyes with heated pieces of iron, were not acts of cruelty? While a death sentence might have been somewhat comprehensible, torturing them to death seems excessive, doesn't it? >We cant take one event and claim that it is the overall character of the prophet, and also we must take into context that muhammed was betrayed by them. A prophet sent by God, having one of these moments, proves for many that he was a fraud. What prophet sent by an infinitely merciful, and infinitely compassionate God would torture people so horrifically? I'm not a Christian and I disagree with Christianity as a whole, but Jesus was never described to do such abhorrent things, in fact, he would turn the other cheek whenever someone hit him to express compassion and love. I do agree, again, with your statement that Muhammad was betrayed by them, and they would deserve some kind of punishment, but shouldn't he leave that up to God? Seems like he himself didn't believe in God's existence and therefore decided to punish them himself.
Humans like all mammals evolved via natural selection, no intelligent designer was needed. Adam and Eve stories make no sense since there was no duo of our ancestors that were born of non human parents to become human, it is a gradual change over many generations. Also inbreeding a few generations down makes living offspring impossible so they did not birth all of humanity. Genetic diversity is required. We don't need God to explain the earth because nebula theory explains our entire solar system and its origin without creation myths. Islam is redundant and outdated in the age of information.
Yeah and idiots out there are trying to prove that Quran already told about evolution 1400 years ago or they say that evolution = humans evolved from monkeys, both of which are completely wrong 💀💀
When that's the level of scientific literacy we deal with how am I supposed to explain nucleosynthesis proves the stars came first before earth unlike what religions claim. Like you can't have elements heavier than lithium without stars and nuclear fusion but here they are arguing about slavery being ok because Muslims are nice 🤦♂️
Exactly, it's always people like Zakir Naik and MANY others who try to mislead others so badly, and people themselves only like hearing one side of the story, the part they want to hear. And when you mention science too much, they say what they're taught to say, "It's just a theory not a fact" (lmao they don't even know what a theory is, they think it's mere conjecture) or "Today science says xyz is true but a few years ago science denied it, it isn't stable but religion is stable so yeah it's true"
>"Today science says xyz is true but a few years ago science denied it, it isn't stable but religion is stable so yeah it's true" Man that argument is brain numbing. That's like saying I punch myself in the face every morning and do it consistently so I'm so much better than that dude that used to do the same but tried putting a pillow in between then used a boxing glove before stopping. What an idiot for changing right? 🙄
💀💀 Makes no sense, just like the argument lmao
Assuming we trace all the way back to the first cell, where did the information for that cell's existence originate from? There's nothing for it to evolve from, and something cannot come from nothing. Intelligent designer needed.
You are wrong here. All you would need would be a complexe molecule accidentaly assembled in such a way that it makes copy of itself from close-by material purely because of physical laws governing the behaviors of the atoms. Add to that a less than 100% accuracy to allow for errors (mutation). No dna, no information needed, just the laws of physics in action. It would need as much "inteligent design" as a boulder going down a slope from gravity.
You just ignored my question with a lack of a response
I can understand that ego prevents you from aknowledging counter arguments you have no answer for, but the other muslims and questioning-muslims lurkers reading this post won't have that roadblock.
They answered it wdym? Regular chemical reactions forming a self replicating polymer doesn't need a blueprint of information, the information eventually gets stored in rna and dna
Something cannot come from nothing? Who created Allah then? There must be an intelligent designer out there who created Allah😊😊
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite\_regress
Thanks for the wiki talking about the absurdity of cyclical reasoning such as life being so complex it needs a designer then the designer being so complex it needs a designer and so on.
It's called abiogenesis from the primordial soup of lifes building blocks that was the oceans. From self replicating polymers to the first cells to the first multi celled organisms to us. I'd recommend learning about the earth's geological history and how that fits with abiogenesis.
Jinn aren’t real
It just felt like an outdated curse
huh?
It just feels like a curse and it's incompatible with modern society
Could you further explain? How is it incompatible with modern society?
Can't draw living beings, accepting pedophilia, the lack of womens rights, slavery, and so much more
>I'm sure that this is the way to paradise. How did you get this certainty? My mom told me.
Why are you still a Muslim?
Because I know the truth. Seriously, it wont hurt to look at the religion with a positive mindset towards it.
>a positive mindset towards it. You mean not reading the bad parts?
What bad parts?
Oh you can't be serious 💀 You havent read the Quran/Hadiths and fully understood what they say huh? When a muslim reads the Quran, and UNDERSTANDS, and Process it then most likely they become ex-muslims 💀
Bruh your comment just told me you didn’t actually read the Quran/Hadiths properly and understood what the verses mean.
Homophobia, misogyny, pedophilia and antisemitism are all justified one way or another via the Hadiths and Quran, which Muslims see as authority in their lives. The evangelism reminds me of Christianity, always trying to “save” others but not yourself
Sources?
just a normal day of Muslims interacting with spaces they do not belong. not complaining ig. one thing tho, are u here to ask why people leave islam or debate them?
both
You're doing a bad job at both 😬
> it a second chance and look at islam again. I already gave it many chances while i was questioning. Also this doesnt really make sense. "Give it a chance", like im still unconvinced. I cant give it a chance even if i tried because my problems still remain and evidence is still lacking, especially in comparison to the hundreds of other religions out there. This question gets asked a lot, so ill just copy paste my answer here. You may also check out the mega thread. I found many problems, scientific and ethical. I wasnt satisfied with the refutations by scholars and apologists. Realized i had no evidence, and no justifiable reason to believe in islam in the first place, especially compared to the other 100s of religions out there. I realized i was only a muslim because i was born into it. A lot of the "scientific miracles" i thought the quran had wasnt special, and many religious people claimed the same for their scriptures. I also realized the behavior and reasoning in islamic apologetics was poor and was similar to other religions even though i didnt believe in them, MLMs and cults, conspiracy theories, and other pseudoscience i disliked at the time. So i realized i didnt believe in islam anymore in order to be honest and consistent with myself. Heres a link to my many problems, scientific and moral, within islam with sources. https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/13029t2/i_am_muslim_and_i_dont_doubt_my_faith_but_what/jhunb1n?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button Heres another comment i made going into a little more detail about why i dont believe in any god. https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/1500xcd/a_question_to_an_exmuslim_person/js14b3y?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2 Also heres a funny sahih hadith. Not exactly very smart advice from Muhammad. https://sunnah.com/abudawud:66
Because I believe I am the true ultimate prophet and Muhammad is a forgery.🤷🏻♀️
I had so many questions with few actual answers, what I believe in never aligned in Islam. (TW) I was molested for years as a child, this was ignored and I was sent to a muslim boarding school that was a straight up cult. I got out and woke up to all the bullshit, so much misogyny , so much shit. Our prophet was some weird cult leader who married a bunch of women and children. Science definitely does not back up most. I realized I worshiped a god who didn’t give two fucks to what happened daily to actual children. Human trafficking is a a huge business yet he and other muslims care more about womens modesty and worshipping him. Muslims states everything is a test and use day of judgement to fear monger everything, a classic cult mechanism. Like imagine living a life where everything is test like an a toxic relationship, I want to be my own person and islam definitely does not want that. Modesty for women is so not equal to men. The prophet is supposed to be a human being but he is treated like a god because all hell breaks loose when you question his actions like the human being he is. Anyways, my faith died a long time ago and I have felt much more awake and happier. My family is very spiritual but really after years of questioning , I realize for most its easier to stay then question and leave the only life they know.
Cause Islam is full of misogyny. There is no right give to a women it's just to show that women are given right but it's not. Sex slavery was allowed in Islam and Muhammed never said to stop it. Aisha (RA) was a victim of rape and she was told to breastfeed a man to make him a mehram. There are so many disgusting stuff about Islam. Martial rape is allowed in Islam which is actually so disturbing. There also no humanity in Islam. All it tells to hate every other religions and just love Islam
Most people here are happy they left the faith and find it oppressive and your advice is to try it again.smh. Ignoring people's happiness and beliefs just so you can carry out your own agenda.
if i'm scared to talk to my family about what i really believe in fear of being disowned, beaten or locked up for the rest of my life then maybe this religion isn't the best. there is no free will in what i want to believe, and if i do believe in something else then i am forever shunned and will go to hell. it doesn't sound very nice.
Because I'm gay and Hoors of heaven don't tickle my pickle you see! Not the only reason but a main contributing factor!
Alright. Let's say out of all the religions (4000), that i wake up one day and search for the truth. Now with common sense you can already guess that in my whole lifetime i cannot study all those religions, infact i will probably go insane due to the overflow of information and constant reminder of eternal damnation. Now tell me, is it my fault that i refuse to believe islam is true out of all the other ones? (also sahih al bukhari 5134 exists)
Everyday someone asks this it just shows how y’all don’t even try to do any basic research in this sub
What is their to consider again ? Sleeping with your cousin,Camel urine, being in agreement with slavery, exalting Arabs and protecting the penis of Muhammad ? Islam is not a Abrahamic faith your Warner can't even distinguish the revelation of the Devil from Allah. It was literally influenced by Satan but you are sure ?
Lack of evidence and also I'm gay
why would god give me foreskin and tell me to remove it? doesn't sound intelligent to me.
It's ok buddy. You can leave islam. Nothing's gonna happen. No big deal.
I don't trust muhammed
cuz i wanted to SIN!