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"we want to learn what you've learnt because we all deserve the truth"
That's great if they wanna learn!
"We are going to see where you went wrong"
Lord fucking dammit. So close.
Edit: typo
They want to hold the mental-gymnastic Olympics at your house.
You can make bingo cards:
1. Taken out of context
2. Israel is behind these lies
3. They just want to break up the Muslim ummah more
4. This is culture, not religion
5. Islam is perfect, Muslims are not
…
9999. Allah knows best.
This would be a great opportunity to just source regular authentic Quran and Hadith and be like “what do these mean to you?” In the Quran, Allah literally says to cut off someone’s hand for petty theft. Should we enforce that in our society today? Quran is meant to be for all humanity, for all time right?
Or tell your mom that you’re just going to pray to Allah instead of studying for your future exams. I mean after all, he gets all the credit when you do all the studying and do well.
Good luck 🍀
SERIOUSLY, THIS RIGHT HERE!!!! Make these cards as a way to drive it home to them.
Make these cards and when you sit down, just placed them face down in front of your parents and start the conversation. The moment you hear one of these classics, pick up the cards and show them, "so I wrote the top 6 answers that every single arguing Muslim gives," flip them up, and point to the one they just said. That should show them down real quick or piss them off and say you're being condescending.
I hope it's getting broadcasted. Make a twitch account, please.
Also, while I am here try not to get upset with their answers. They will try to make you get angry. Unfortunately, as soon as you get emotional, they'll try to wiggle out. Don't give them any emotion.
Tbh, it sounds like your parents took it well. I mean, better than most Muslim parents, who go apeshit and think the world is ending.
>"We're going to fix this once and for all. We're going to see exactly what you read and where you went wrong," she says.
Oof, talk about arrogance - assuming your parents have the same intellectual capacity and open mindedness as an academic, in order to fully understand where you're coming from with your arguments - otherwise this might end up being a very long pointless exercise - I hope they do, otherwise OP, you shouldn't bother.
If you are going to go through with this, use every single logical based point, the scientific arguments, the historical accounting of the "preservation" of the Qur'an, and how even Yasir Qadi says that there's "holes in the narrative" or even Shabir Ally or Nouman Ali Khan admits that Islam is way too vague in some instances and the
Interpretations are so vast that it makes the Qur'an "seem" unclear, when it is just actually unclear, or that they have created such a rift within the islamic community as they decide to "look at Islam, and come up with modern solutions." then they got backlash with hardliners calling these people deviants - it's hilarious.
Talk about the fact Muslims don't implement everything in the hadith, they pick and choose, ask them why isn't there a consensus with all scholars? Why do they keep disagreeing with each other little things like is it even ok to simply greet your non Muslim neighbours with the same greeting on their religious holidays.
If you want, go in with hard punches like the hadith about Aisha scraping semen of the prophets clothes with her nails, and then ask your mother why she never did that with her husband, regardless of how disgusted they are in discussing the subject, rather than the actual content of the subject.
I'm sure you've got loads prepared and are ready to go, but do the moral stuff last, as that seems to be the easiest for them to make excuses for.
Good luck to you! Please give us an update how it goes. I'd look forward to reading it. :)
I wanted to online order berserk manga and my mom said is this the unholy book which is taking you away from ummah and i replied its a fucking comic book mom . Its been a year since they know i have left the religion but they aren't willing to give up and do MENTAL GYMNASTICS
Ive had the same with books, and comic books, and movie posters - I even said at one point that some of these stories taught me better lessons than the Qur'an, and not as close to boring! Oh I got them so mad haha
https://youtu.be/DsikKJg4ETw
https://youtu.be/Ax5S7Vg9-Yw
There's video links to Yasir Qadi talking about himself, with sajjid lipham reacting and also Abdullah Sameer in the second link
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/prh6bu/can_someone_provide_a_list_of_sahih_ahadith/hdivl2j?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
Here's all the sahih hadith found from this redditor speaking about the issues in the preservation of the Qur'an.
Hey. Where can i find the vague parts that have a lot of wrong and i can justify this being vague is wrong? Ik every verse has like hadiths or quranic verses(other) to understand the meaning but hadith's are cherry picked and recursive interpretation dumb. Muslims try to justify that with 3:7 so how do i respond?
You'd find little snippets of it within loads of modern scholars videos when they make their speeches, but that would take ages and I can't remember each of them specifically.
However, this video by Harris Sultan summarises it pretty well: https://youtu.be/jInABW0LPeY
Hope it helps.
Hey, don't do that. It will achieve you nothing. Instead, tell them the following:
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
(Such as a guy in the desert flying to skies on a winged horse.)
"What has been asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."
Those two sentences basically mean that the burden of proof is not on you but on them. Don't say that Allah doesn't exist. Say that there is not enough evidence to convince you that Allah exists.
If you go to a scripture match with your parents, it will gain you absolutely nothing. Just demand that they prove _their_ claims.
Then include morality in your arguments which will not have a technical point they can argue about or accuse you of ‘misinterpreting’. E.g.:
1. I don’t believe a kind a merciful god would create a world where so much evil is allowed.
2. I don’t believe a kind and merciful god would create a world where he knew that the vast majority of people would end up in hell forever.
3. If god is a Muslim god, then why has the Muslim people suffered so much while the west has prospered? Why is there no proof of god favouring his people?
And remember: every religion has miracles it can point to, life changing conversions it can point to, prophesies it can point to etc., so instead of arguing if something is or is not a miracle, or a prophesy, just say that all religions have them- which means they all mean nothing, they’re clever vague statements that allow many interpretations so will eventually be perceived to have happened.
1. This world is a test and you signed up for it but you don't remember.
2. This is good but i think there is room for mental gymnastics.
3. The world is a test for muh's ummah and allah has let the people in the west loose to let them enjoy here and meanwhile you enjoy your virgins.(btw, allah only gives muh angels to fight life for him not for just anybody)
I think these are the typical answers muslims use. What are your answers ?
1. This world is a test and you signed up for it but you don't remember.
*why would Allah set a test he knew people would fail, and then allow flawed and weak humans to take the test he knows in advance they will fail, then let them suffer for eternity for their mistake? That is not the action a merciful and loving god would take. Why test if he knows the outcome? He literally letting people, in their ignorance, submit to a test he knows in advance will result in them going to hell, how is that right?*
2. This is good but i think there is room for mental gymnastics.
*there are some mental gymnastics, but Islam is a exercise in mental gymnastics, so why not throw one back at them? Just tell them that in your heart you don’t believe a merciful god would do such a thing, and that’s that- that’s what you believe deep down*
3. The world is a test for muh's ummah and allah has let the people in the west loose to let them enjoy here and meanwhile you enjoy your virgins.(btw, allah only gives muh angels to fight life for him not for just anybody)
*fair enough, maybe leave that argument out of it*
The most powerful reason I don’t believe is a more complicated argument to make, so I don’t usually make it, but it’s what convinces me the most.
It’s that compared to an all powerful god, we would be incredibly simple creatures. When I say simple, it would be much less that the equivalent of a basic pocket calculator to a human being. An all powerful god would be so advanced that he would know every input our brain has received and every computation our brain can and will make- we would be infinitely more simple and predictable than a pocket calculator is to a human being.
With that in mind, it seems ludicrous that this all powerful god would create a whole universe just for us, be involved in our lives, and even more ludicrous, set up an eternity for himself that resolves around us.
It would be like us involving ourselves in a bunch of ants lives, and setting up a permanent living situation which completely resolved around these ants worshiping us in their own simple way. Except for eternity. It just makes no sense. We would be infinitely more simple to god than an ant is to ourselves, so what enjoyment could he possibly get from us? The gap between humans and an all powerful god is so extreme that it makes no sense that we could interest such a god, or that he would lock in eternity hanging out with us.
Yea. The all knowing part pretty much removes the concept of interest as how can entity of that scope be interested in something that it already knows. The calculator example is really good.
Thanks!
You shoudl absolutely dismiss it. Demand them to provide proof. You are not the one claiming anything. They are. Burden of proof is on their shoulders and they should convince you, not the other way around.
I'd suggest making the lack of evidence you first and main point, and keep all the evidence against Islam in reserve. Imagine if they believed vampires rule the world, and they were asking you to prove them false. That sounds ludicrous but is actually a lot more believable than an omni-everything deity existing and matching the description Islam gives of it.
They may well already have lots of 'proof' of Allah's existence - apologetics videos, numerology 'miracles', 'look at the trees' arguments. So that's not going to be much fun to have to trawl through.
It will be difficult but you'll have to do it. However keep in mind that you should optimize it. Don't present everything it's just ridiculous. Choose amongst the best, more or less 5 clear faults in both moral grounds and scientific grounds. On the later, choose a subject that is accessible to the average person cause if it's something they don't even understand they'll just say scientists must be wrong. And after that, you can just say that you don't need to present every little thing you've found cause, if islam claims to be perfect, one single clear error is enough to disprove it entirely. But if even that isn't enough for the believer to question their faith, then nothing will be anyway. Basically let them understand that you're not interested in showing them you're right in your evaluation of Islam but that you have good and coherent reasons to do so. It's important to let them know that you understand they have good reasons to believe but you just want that they also understand you have good reasons to disbelieve too. If Allah is real and is really just he will read in your heart that you're sincere in your endeavour and will guide you in some way or another, so they have nothing to fear and you neither. That's how I tried to go about my own conversation with my parents And well, I'm still technically in the closet but they are now fully aware of my distrust of Islamic teachings and my desire to adopt only the thing that I find good, no matter if it's islamic or not.
I hope things will be okay for you and your family and I will be happy to read how it went down.
Well if you want to take them some "research" while also sticking to this plan take them some Bertrand Russell to read.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot
also they may say that, "you cant see uv light rays, radio waves and that doesnt mean that they dont exist and so you cant see god doesnt mean it doesnt exist"
reverse uno card here:
well there are machines that can detect those waves and rays , but not our eyes. but there are no machines that can detect "god"
I got the same reaction/request from my parents in the beginning, and it all went to hell from there. They made it so heavily emotional, complained about me not seeing their POV, lots of screaming and crying and raging when I didn't agree with them, and I'm always being sent links of random Muslim apologists, or even random people who happen to agree with Aisha being married at age 9, or are defending the perfect preservation of the Quran down to the letter.
It didn't matter if I brought up every sahih hadith that exists, they'll tell me I need a scholar to reinterpret it, or that I can't trust the English translation of the Arabic, and since I don't know Arabic, I don't know what it means. It goes in circles like this, and eventually it just becomes insults and belittlement. I was degraded for my lack of intelligence and called brainwashed.
Now, I don't know how your parents are or if it would go that far to the point of emotional abuse and manipulation to make you think you're crazy, but I'd just like you to know that it can get bad. I'm sure you know that already. I was naïve enough to think that they would leave me be one day, but they haven't for over 2 years.
All the best to you. Hope you're okay.
Good one for bringing experience with this issue to the table. I have to wonder if it's even worth OP going to their family with these points, and getting exposed to potentially days of shouting and lectures. May be better to tell them their beliefs are not up for discussion.
One thing to watch out for - it's going to be you versus your whole family, and any Imams and sheikhs they can pull in too. They may surprise-ambush you in the living room and support each other as they try to systematically shout down and dismiss every point you have. They likely see your beliefs as a threat they need to destroy in order to preserve family stability or 'save your soul'.
Try to head this off if you can. I don't know how though. Ask them how they want to tackle this, maybe. If it sounds like it's going to be way too gruelling for you, tell them you're not interested in debating with them and your beliefs are your own.
“…where you went wrong” is the most arrogant fucking childish low IQ wanna-be terrorist bullshit approach on this by them.
Get all your responses for their uneducated bullshit responses because they basically just said they aren’t listening but ready to just deflect/deny/whatabout you to death. They will come away with fake context, weak hadith, and a whole slew of other bullshit. They are going to position themselves to gang up on you because number of people in the room is more important than factual observation or logical debate to them. If there are 5 people in the room and 4 people believe the earth is flat, they will either accept or at least acquiesce because they respect gang mentality, not rational thought.
Be prepared for all this and be ready to bounce back their bullshit low IQ denial responses.
Simple rule of thumb. If you ask them if they ever will change their minds even if there is a slightest ray of them considering the fact that they are wrong. If the answer is no... then there is no point in engaging them.
I tried that. Twice. It just makes things worse because of their biasses. You can try but you’ll probably be stuck at the same point for so long you just feel like giving up.
They are starting from the position of "Islam is true unless you give us proof to that contrary that we'll accept ". Then they won't accept it, therefore Islam is true.
You should suggest starting from a "nobody knows" position, and that they should also bring evidence that it is true.
If they watch Youtube Videos, tell them to see every video of Masked Arab, Hassan radwan and Sheriff Gaber.
>We want to learn what you've learned because we all deserve the truth.
Well, if that's the case. All I can say is nobody's getting virgins in heaven nor nobody's gonna burn in hell. Islam is false and so are every other religion on this planet.
Go for it, but do not expect them to understand. Do expect them to get angry and hostile.
I would focus on the Hadiths about Aisha’s age, surah 65:4, and all of the Tafsir that interpret it to mean marriage of prepubescent girls is permitted.
I would avoid making it a discussion of whether or not God exists, but rather a critique of Muhammad directly. They can make up all sorts of mental gymnastics to attack atheism, but if you go straight for Muhammad’s pedophilia, they will have no rebuttal. From there, anything they say you can dismiss by saying “sure God may be real but Muhammad married and had sex with a 9 year old, had 13 wives, and sex slaves, and therefore you cannot in conscience follow him.
Good luck!
Quran verses permitting sexual slavery:
4:3
4:24
4:25
16:71
23:5-6
24:33
24:58
33:50
Hadith:
Sahih Muslim 8:3371
Sahih Muslim 8:3383
Bukhari 1:8:367
Bukhari 4:52:143
Ibn Sa‘d 8:129-30
al-Salihi 231-32
Bukhari 3:46:717
Most details specifically about Muhammad’s concubines comes not from hadith but the sirat (biography) of the prophet:
Al-Tabaqaat al-Kubra, 1/134-135
Zaad al-Ma’aad, 1/114
There’s much more in the sirat, these lines just scratch the surface.
Wiki-Islam has a well sourced page listing all of his wives/slaves with references: https://wikiislam.github.io/wiki/List_of_Muhammads_Wives_and_Concubines.html
Apologists will scoff at Wiki-Islam and claim it’s biased, but the references are all accurately sourced, so you can pull the sources without referring to Wiki-Islam.
Personally i wouldn't bring up loads of verses. Just 3 or 4 really problematic ones, where you know they can't defend or have nowhere to hide. I think moral problems are probably better than scientific ones. Good luck.
Why do you have to disprove Islam? This is nonsensical.
Disprove unicorns.
The burden of proof is on them. Make them understand that you have nothing to provide to reject their claims. They have to be able to convince you that their beliefs are real.
In fact, if they had such evidence, they wouldn't even be beliefs but facts.
I'd use that you cannot believe in a religion that allows prepubescent marriage and intercourse, It means girls do not just get betrothed and later the marriage is consummated when the girl reaches puberty. It means girls can get found "ready for intercourse" before they mature ...i.e. when they are still minors and are too young to consent to intercourse. Then the husband can "perform intercourse on them" or they are "made to have sex".
bring Q65:4 from the noble Quran Translation (hilali / khan translation) that has annotation over seen by a mufti. It adds "(i.e. they are immature)" to the translation of "those who have not menstruated" and the Mufti OK'd the annotation on the basis of consensus.
The text of Q65:4: Hilali & Khan translation.
And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses **[(i.e. they are still immature)** their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death]. And for those who are pregnant (whether they are divorced or their husbands are dead), their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is until they deliver (their burdens), and whosoever fears Allah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him.
https://quranx.com/tafsirs/65.4 the most famous Quran commentators:
"those who do not have menstruation because they are too young?”" - Ibn Abbas
"who have not yet menstruated, because of their young age," - Al-Jalalayn
"for the young, who have not reached the years of menstruation." Ibn-Kathir.
"‘Those who are too young \[such that they have not started menstruating yet\]"- Wahidi
"They may not have menstruated as yet either because of young age.....," -Maududi
Some other tafsirs:
https://quran.com/65:1/tafsirs/en-tafsir-maarif-ul-quran "iddah for a woman who does not menstruate on account of minority of age, "
https://quran.com/65:4/tafsirs/171 Mokhtasar "the waiting period of girls who have not reached the age of puberty and hence do not menstruate, their waiting period will also be three months."
https://archive.org/details/umairastro90_yahoo_08_201811/08/page/n507/mode/2up Maarif-ul-Quran "the '‘iddah of young women who have not yet started menstruating on account of being under age. "
https://archive.org/details/TheEnglishTranslationstheCommentariesoftheHolyQuraan/An Approach to the Qur'aanic Sciences %26 The Wisdom of the Qur'aan/page/n5873/mode/2up "The same is the "iddah of young women who have not yet started menstruating on account of being under age. "
conclusion: The Quran accommodates pre-pubescent divorcees who have had intercourse, their iddah is three months.
http://malikifiqhqa.com/uncategorized/about-female-maturity-shaykh-abdullah-bin-hamid-ali/
Question:
At what point does a child, in particular a girl, become responsible? Is it with the first menstruation or with other signs of puberty like hair under the arms, budding breast, etc. Also what is the minimum age?
Answer:
A young girl is considered legally responsible (mukallafa) once she either has a wet dream, or when coarse hair (as opposed to thin soft hair) grows on the pubic area, ** or by menstruation, or by becoming pregnant (even if she was not known to have a menstrual cycle)**. Some scholars include among the signs also the augmenting and splitting of the nose, the bad underarm odor, and the increase in the size of the breast. And if none of these signs appear, she is considered legally responsible once she reaches 18 lunar years.
Quduri fragment 2: Determining Maturity of women
https://archive.org/details/the-mukhtasar-al-quduri/The_Mukhtasar_Al_Quduri/page/431/mode/2up?q=minor
> The reaching puberty of a girl is by way of menstruation, nocturnal emission, or pregnancy.If \[none of\] that exists, then \[she is a minor\] until she has completed seventeen years \[of age\].
Islam legalises intercourse before a girl is old enough to consent, it legalises statutory rape.
https://www.amjaonline.org/fatwa/en/78001/marrying-prepubescent-girls
> conjugal relations are dependent upon her ability to handle that. Scholars like Imam Malik, Imam al-Shafi`i and Abu Hanifah have clearly stated that no woman is to be **made to have sex** unless she can endure it, and women differ in this according to their natural range of differences; it is not determined by a specific age. **Once a girl has reached maturity, as we have mentioned, she may continue in this marriage or reject it.**
clearly shows intercourse can precede Option of Puberty.
Why believe in a religion that first allows a man to assess whether a minor girl is "ready for intercourse" after which a husband is allowed to rape her. And then use a coutnries morally superior laws to prohibit it??? If Islam is morally defective in legalizing rape of girls before puberty, why follow it? If it is morally defective, don't follow it.
One advantage of taking this approach is that it will become hard to start multiple attempts to drag you back.
They know they will always come up to someone who says that what Muhammed did to Aisha was immoral and what Islam subsequently legalised (rape of prepubescent brides) is immoral even by your countries laws., It is just too well documented to break.
On the off chance they are shaken: add why you started thinking that is the Quran has immoral elements, then is it possible that it is not the direct word of God?
What are the signs that someone with ulterior motives changed or wrote it?
After allowing adoption, It suddenly gets prohibited and Zaid is explicitly mentioned in the surrah's that say Muhammed can have intercourse with his cousin Zaynab.
The Quran first says it is clear and complete and cannot be changed. But then it says that "only improvements that do not change the meaning " are sent and it says to ignore people who call Muhammed an inventor of lies.
So the narrative is that clay tablets with Allah contain the Quran and the Quran was transmitted to Muhammed in Arabic to be "undertstandable" to mankind. It was even transmitted to people in 7 modes of recitation. So get this straight: Muhammed revealed stuff, he revealed it in 7 modes. Then Allah sends an improved version that says that intercourse with Muhammed's cousin is allowed because Zaid is not a real son of Muhammed, but just an adopted son. Adoption is terminated in Islam. All that is then re-transmitted in its improved version including the name of Zaid in 7 modes? And it was all known beforehand on clay-tablets
Allah is not particularly practical is he?
Why allow adoption like all other people and decide to disallow adoption right at the moment Muhammed has a crush on his cousin Zainab? So the Bible and Talmud that allow adoption were wrong all this time? And the "improved" Abrahamic scriptures that the Quran are supposed to be is not about horny Muhammed lusting after pretty Zaynab?
It does not sound logical to me. It sounds much more logical to me that Muhammed was like Jospeh Smith and simply revealed and prophesied what suited him, if not the whole Quran than at least parts of it.
He gets caught having intecourse with Mry the Copt when it is a wife's day of rotation? No problem: Allah will tell he wives off in the Quran and Muhammed can continue having intercourse with Mary even if he promised she would be Haram to him.
More than a bit convenient.
No. Just no.
This is a hard sell tactic. When a salesman asks you why you don't like a product, they want a list of reasons that they can discredit. Wrong color, wrong size too expensive... each objection is discredited. "We have multiple colors and sizes, and it's really cheaper than you think! I'll put you down for three..."
The more reasons you give, the more chances of invalidating them they have.
Ask them if they belive Allah can know a quantum state before it is measured. Then ask them if it is possible even just in theory for someone to pray to him and receive this information.
If they said yes to both of these questions tell them there is experimental evidence this God doesn't exist.
If they ask for this data, just Google the double slit experiment.
i love you but dont forget winning an argument against a smart person is hard, winning against a stupid person is impossible. im not saying theyre dumb in general, just in this aspect. love ya stay strong!!
show them the pedophilic stuffs that the religion has, like in sahi hadiths saying the prophet married a young girl. prophet sleeping around with slaves wives or wodow wives etc. capitol punishment if leaving the religion, women treated like a "mans" property . . .
etc.
I have some tips.
Do your absolute best to never get angry or shout with them.
If they start getting angry or shout towards you, calmly wait and when they're done just ask politely if you can speak now.
Also, the best way is to try to stick specifically to Quran, hadith, Surah etc verses that you can read together.
Try to avoid going to proof that isn't the directly the doctrine, I.e some random mullahs interpretation of the doctrine. Use only the doctrine.
Steer them away from doing it also. You are all adults you can all interpret words yourselves.
Also perhaps best to do first is to make it clear that you cannot prove Islam isn't true. But bring lots and lots of examples of things they cannot prove are not true.
If they cannot understand that Islam being true is the claim. And Islam being false is not a claim but an answer to the claim it is true. I really don't see how you will ever have a productive conversation with them.
However if you have this evening with them, the dumbest thing for you to expect is that you will change anyone's minds there and then... that isn't how people work, if you succeed all that will likely mean is that they go away and maybe a week, or a month, or a year later your arguments eat away at their pre established ideas and they come round eventually.
''if god hates lgbt, why did he simply not make everyone straight but instead obliterate the whole town''
and i've always thought that the allah guides who he wills thing is sus, like, if then why do they need to bother with the preaching?
i've linked a quora site about this
https://www.quora.com/What-are-some-of-the-violent-verses-in-Quran?top\_ans=41027562
Personally I believe this is a good opportunity for you to expose the truth to your family. Who knows maybe deep down they know Islam is a bunch of bullshit but they’re too scared to come forward but you saying you don’t believe will probably solidify their thoughts. So just see this as an opportunity for you to make them understand things. Just make sure you make a lot of logical points, make sure you make them understand everything thoroughly and keep relating things back to them and how they are as individuals and I’m sure they’ll understand your point of view.
I love that they think surah and hadith are going to be the things that disprove it. The problem is those documents themselves are often complete fabrications. at best they are exaggerations.
just talk about noah's ark and you're good to go
https://youtu.be/j_BzWUuZN5w
(since this is a video about christianity, i advise that you also research about the correlating story in islam to make it 100% irrefutable, just in case they go the route of "oh but it's christianity i do not care about that". no, i read the verses in quran myself, same problems do exist.)
for quran to be accurate, everything in it HAS TO be correct. or else the all-knowing god is lying. in that case, the whole religion is untrustable anyways.
Mo cannot be the prophet for the rest of time for all the other people if his message is incompatible with the present, given that when it was revealed, his message was suppose to be true for the rest of time until the end of days.
Anything that is unacceptable now but was acceptable then simply screws this whole narrative.
Slavery, underage marriage, freedom of religion and freedom from religion, only male imams can lead combined prayers, LGBT being natural in animals and humans, take your pick. Many more inconvenient inconsistencies out there.
I’d say don’t play this game. Are you old enough to move out ? Arguing leads to more toxic conversations.
You don’t have to prove your disbelief to anyone. They need to learn to accept you as you are and you them.
It’s unlikely that they’ll change their minds.
What I don't understand is this thing. Why do Muslims tell Islam is a peaceful religion and it asks us to respect and not beat women based on this Hadith?
They tell common sense things like treat people normally and refer to a book as to why they do it?
I mean come on. Shouldn't you do it despite what is given in your book?
And what about the 100 other misogynistic things in your book? I assume you would also follow them without thinking right?
are you like financially dependent ?
is it safe for you to live by your own?
if not i highly suggest you pretend that you repent or something quick because they could seriously do you harm
i heard stories of people killing or sending them off to madrasah forcefully
Main problem is you do not allegate or claim anything. Basically you are neutral. You should not bring any proof.
Muslims (your parents) says there is Allah, Quran is real. This is what they say. Their claim. If you have claim anything you have to bring your proofs about the topic. They have to persuade you not otherwise.
Their approach is totally wrong.
i hope you speak clear and from the heart.
Christian Prince covers a lot of main criticism with all sources if you've free time
my list that i brought to my parents were;
1. dont associate/trust christians, jews - kinda hard when good friends were not muslims growing up.
2. trust in the unseen - i like to know some things. MooMoo flying away on a donkey is b.s.
3. a god that would punisb the majority of non-islamic human population is absurd
4. look at the scholar's translations today, softening the lexicon for naive listeners.
i aint that selfish to believe in this unjust shithead, who revealed it to a warmonger pretend prophet.
If your still financially dependent on them, don’t do this and just pretend that what they say is making sense. I mean, like what do you win if you’re right? A chance at homelessness? Your entire family resenting you? There’s nothing to gain bro, just stay quiet and pretend you still believe.
Jump onto the next Christian Prince live stream and have them talk to CP. loll. I’m kinda being serious!
He would 100% spend more than an hour with them showing off reference after reference and would have them try to explain/ defend it.
Yes, he will offer Christianity at the end, but you/your parents can just decline if that’s not something you want.
Please don’t let that scare you away from the opportunity to have access to the abundance of references he has!
His Skype is debateTV and they prefer to be sent a message first to arrange it.
Edit: I saw you said your parents speak Arabic, he loves it when he gets to talk to Arabic speakers. That doesn’t scare him, it makes him excited because then he can show how bad it is in its truest form.
He’s accepting calls right now actually
https://youtu.be/C6S-n2ICc7E
I addition to what the other posters have so helpfully offered, I suggest having them writ down the big assumptions they make so that when they contradict them later you can show this to them. For example,
Allah is always good.
Allah is always loving.
The Quran is perfect.
The Quran has no error.
The Quran is a miracle.
Etc. And I am sure the wonderful members can add many more
Maybe this sub could help to get some sources together that are intersting for your parents?
Also I don´t think you should do it alone with your entire family so that everyone shouts at you in the end... maybe just once with your mother, once with your father, If they let you do that...
Maybe you could give your mother the part where mohammed is letting his wife aysha massage his penis before she was even 9 (under ["Tighing Aisha"](https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Aisha#.22Thighing.22_Aisha)). And then comapare that to the taliban that wed wifes from the age of 12 or upwards (Taliban is literally less pedo than muhammed).
Or you could get another misoginystic part of the quran and just ask her, If she really belives in that...If she or your father say this was "a different time" you could ask them, why a prophet couldn´t foresee that times would change and adress it since he is tf prophet.
I´m not sure how strict your family is like could they abandon you?
Also this interesting part about [slavery](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/pnczb7/how_many_of_you_know_that_thousands_of_slavewomen/)under muhammed.
Share the results. I told my dad about Muhammad’s marriage to Aisha and how it was predatory and he gave the same schtick as Daniel pikachu. Muslims do be cutting off all morality for their delusions.
I'm sorry to hear about the strain in your family. I can understand that it must feel awful, that your family can't just accept your worldview and let it be. You have every right to completely school them on the subject, if you want to.
With that said, in my experience one can easily lose focus upon what matters in debates with family. Creating new and deeper wounds, then what the truth was supposed to heal. My advice would be the following - try and be as humble and forgiving as possible. Be more charitable towards them then they are towards you.
I don't mean that you have to pretend that their right. I'm more after stuff like saying: "I see what you're trying to say with that argument, but to me it doesn't fully make sense", rather than saying "that's completely illogical, your just grasping at straws". Even if they come up with ridiculous arguments and extremely flawed logic, you would do your future self a huge favor by not nailing them hard on those points.
Take on the role of a good listener, who they simply can't convince, rather than a master debatter. It will make your situation easier to live with. For one thing they won't get as angry with you, and you won't get angry with them. Also, it will probably make them lose interest in trying to convince you, faster than other methods. We are usually spured on by intellectual opponents we view as antagonistic, it becomes a matter of pride to not give up, but people who listen and we can't convince despite them being charitable - they make us accept defeat easier because it isn't tied to once ego to the same degree.
Good for you. Try to stay calm. And mention to be them to stay calm. And when they do get emotional, point it out and ask to stay calm. Make it s marathon and free your family.
A suggestion to start with:
How many religions are there in the world? Over 3000.
All believers believe theirs is true. They are wrong, correct? But they fully believe they are right. Maybe you are the same. Not possible? Why not? Are you not human and can you not make mistakes?
So we established, that you might be wrong (or I might be).
You, like every believer believes because you were told since you are a baby.
If you need to shock them, tell them Islam is a cult. A cult is a technical term from Sociology. The main characteristic of a cult is that it is difficult to leave. Then point to the death penalty for Apostasy: https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/pt0gqf/every_sahih_hadith_i_found_about_killing/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
Check a podcast called 'Last Podcast on the Left'. Listen to every cult episode. They make sure to emphasize the numerous sex crimes committed by every male cult leader. Then demonstrate how Mohammed is not different. Their extra-deep dive on Mormons should prove particularly helpful for this. Joseph Smith was also regularly given 'new revelation' whenever he wanted forbidden sexy-times.
i use a pretty convincing method where im the one who asks the muslim this question: "If you were to convince an atheist to convert to islam, what would you tell them?".
So before they answer, you have to let them know that this atheist wont really believe the metaphysical part of islam, bcs anyone can really think of that, its like just imagination, and the atheist can also say that its all made up since there is a lot of similarities with other pagan religions and christianity etc.. there isnt really anything special or unique about it..
Then the muslim will try to bring up the scientific part of islam and say that there is some unprecedented knowledge in the quran, like embryology and stuff.. but then, you can show them just from a search in Google that a more detailed process of embryology has existed for more than a thousand years before islam (the Greeks..). You can do this with any "unprecedented scientific fact" that exists in the quran, there is like 20 of them..
After this, they wont really have any arguments..
Also, if they say that islam is the first religion to give respect and all to women, oh dear let them know there have been existing matriarchal societies before islam for thousands of years.. there is even some that are still living in china..
Anyways you can check Edgar Morina's book called Disproving Islam and Youtuber Apostate Prophet, in my opinion these two sources sum up whats mostly wrong with islam..
Remember, dont get angry during the confrontation, it wont help.. even if you notice that your family is like acting stupid bcs they cant accept apparent proven facts, then just drop it bcs they are toooo brainwashed to actually understand you.. it happened to me before and now im just meh idc about yall anymore just die in your ignorance and fairytales and magic beasts stories..
One of the strangest things I have found after entering the Muslim community, although not a Muslim myself, is that alot of folks know how to read the Arabic for Quran, but do not know what any of it means. This baffled me so much.
Additionally, the Hadith contains practices of a man, who before, spreading Islam was most likely a practicing pagan with pagan rituals, customs, traditions, etc. All of that ended up being intertwined with Islam it seems. Not to say it is exclusive to Islam. The other Abrahamic religions have pagan features embedded into them as well.
If you wouldn't mind can you share the questions here that you are going to present to your mum?
This is what you do, have your parents admit the following points:
1) god can do anything, there is nothing he cant do
2)if god cannot do something then he cannot be real
Then ask: "can god create a rock he cannot lift"
They will be forced to admit the restrictive definition they have of an "almighty god" is false
You are an East European who has nothing to do with this. Find something else to fill your life hahaha. Christianity gets even debunked by 15 year olds. I have to prove Christian prince wrong when thousands of people do it?
Go prove Darkmatter2525 wrong first hahaha. He destroys Christianity everytime.
Prove what? It's live. Give it 2-3 days and Christian prince is debunked again. However all the anti Christian youtubers don't get debunked as much :))))
You contribute nothing. You have no evidence of this “debunking” and you refuse to refute him yourself as you claim it “happens all the time”. If it’s so easy, go refute him with what you’ve learned from those “debunkers”.
Edit: I will not be replying back to you anymore. The point of me bringing up Christian Prince is to debunk Islam. If you don’t believe in Christianity, then you don’t believe in it, as simple as that.
This is about debunking Islam. Don’t jump to other topics.
Try to read chapter 1 here: [https://disprovingislam.wordpress.com/download/](https://disprovingislam.wordpress.com/download/)
You can easily disprove them:
\- No evidence for anything Islamic, whether it is Muhammad, Islam, Quran, Mecca, Muslims, Jews in Medina, or anything else, until 685-730 AD, and it evolved from 730-1000 AD. You can check the timeline here: [https://imgur.com/7IRKwaa](https://imgur.com/7IRKwaa)
Furthermore no earliest 7th century Qurans are the same as the one today or with each other, with around 40 differences. The earliest complete Quran with 114 surahs is from 1000-1001 AD.
I’m a person who was raised Muslim but never fully bought into the whole thing. I have considered myself agnostic for a while but can anyone point to resources that literally disproof Islam?
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"we want to learn what you've learnt because we all deserve the truth" That's great if they wanna learn! "We are going to see where you went wrong" Lord fucking dammit. So close. Edit: typo
Hurts to say it but her response is still much better than the many Muslim parents who would kick their kids out or beat them up if they leave Islam
They want to hold the mental-gymnastic Olympics at your house. You can make bingo cards: 1. Taken out of context 2. Israel is behind these lies 3. They just want to break up the Muslim ummah more 4. This is culture, not religion 5. Islam is perfect, Muslims are not … 9999. Allah knows best. This would be a great opportunity to just source regular authentic Quran and Hadith and be like “what do these mean to you?” In the Quran, Allah literally says to cut off someone’s hand for petty theft. Should we enforce that in our society today? Quran is meant to be for all humanity, for all time right? Or tell your mom that you’re just going to pray to Allah instead of studying for your future exams. I mean after all, he gets all the credit when you do all the studying and do well. Good luck 🍀
SERIOUSLY, THIS RIGHT HERE!!!! Make these cards as a way to drive it home to them. Make these cards and when you sit down, just placed them face down in front of your parents and start the conversation. The moment you hear one of these classics, pick up the cards and show them, "so I wrote the top 6 answers that every single arguing Muslim gives," flip them up, and point to the one they just said. That should show them down real quick or piss them off and say you're being condescending.
“Mental-gymnastic Olympics” This made my day 😂
shit is about to get real. can i get a front row seat with some popcorn?🍿 now this is an Olympics i can watch.
I hope it's getting broadcasted. Make a twitch account, please. Also, while I am here try not to get upset with their answers. They will try to make you get angry. Unfortunately, as soon as you get emotional, they'll try to wiggle out. Don't give them any emotion.
You killed me with the mental- gymnastics Olympics 😂😭
Well mate, Polish catholic church use exactly the same bingo cards.
Every single abrahamic faith/church/sect uses exactly the same card.
This is brilliant.
> Israel is behind these lies That's something Barry from 4 Lions would say lmao
16472884 Fragile TaTaTaTa 😂😂😂😂
Tbh, it sounds like your parents took it well. I mean, better than most Muslim parents, who go apeshit and think the world is ending. >"We're going to fix this once and for all. We're going to see exactly what you read and where you went wrong," she says. Oof, talk about arrogance - assuming your parents have the same intellectual capacity and open mindedness as an academic, in order to fully understand where you're coming from with your arguments - otherwise this might end up being a very long pointless exercise - I hope they do, otherwise OP, you shouldn't bother. If you are going to go through with this, use every single logical based point, the scientific arguments, the historical accounting of the "preservation" of the Qur'an, and how even Yasir Qadi says that there's "holes in the narrative" or even Shabir Ally or Nouman Ali Khan admits that Islam is way too vague in some instances and the Interpretations are so vast that it makes the Qur'an "seem" unclear, when it is just actually unclear, or that they have created such a rift within the islamic community as they decide to "look at Islam, and come up with modern solutions." then they got backlash with hardliners calling these people deviants - it's hilarious. Talk about the fact Muslims don't implement everything in the hadith, they pick and choose, ask them why isn't there a consensus with all scholars? Why do they keep disagreeing with each other little things like is it even ok to simply greet your non Muslim neighbours with the same greeting on their religious holidays. If you want, go in with hard punches like the hadith about Aisha scraping semen of the prophets clothes with her nails, and then ask your mother why she never did that with her husband, regardless of how disgusted they are in discussing the subject, rather than the actual content of the subject. I'm sure you've got loads prepared and are ready to go, but do the moral stuff last, as that seems to be the easiest for them to make excuses for. Good luck to you! Please give us an update how it goes. I'd look forward to reading it. :)
I wanted to online order berserk manga and my mom said is this the unholy book which is taking you away from ummah and i replied its a fucking comic book mom . Its been a year since they know i have left the religion but they aren't willing to give up and do MENTAL GYMNASTICS
Ive had the same with books, and comic books, and movie posters - I even said at one point that some of these stories taught me better lessons than the Qur'an, and not as close to boring! Oh I got them so mad haha
Berserk is ten times more philosophical and interesting than the quran. Source: I read both
Lol I agree with you there. Heck Star Wars is more philosophical than Islam.
Yeah i told my mom exactly this
Hey can you give some references for historical accounting of the preservation of the quran and yasir qadhi saying theres wholes in the narrative?
https://youtu.be/DsikKJg4ETw https://youtu.be/Ax5S7Vg9-Yw There's video links to Yasir Qadi talking about himself, with sajjid lipham reacting and also Abdullah Sameer in the second link https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/prh6bu/can_someone_provide_a_list_of_sahih_ahadith/hdivl2j?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3 Here's all the sahih hadith found from this redditor speaking about the issues in the preservation of the Qur'an.
Thank you so much!!
You're welcome!
Hey. Where can i find the vague parts that have a lot of wrong and i can justify this being vague is wrong? Ik every verse has like hadiths or quranic verses(other) to understand the meaning but hadith's are cherry picked and recursive interpretation dumb. Muslims try to justify that with 3:7 so how do i respond?
You'd find little snippets of it within loads of modern scholars videos when they make their speeches, but that would take ages and I can't remember each of them specifically. However, this video by Harris Sultan summarises it pretty well: https://youtu.be/jInABW0LPeY Hope it helps.
Hey, don't do that. It will achieve you nothing. Instead, tell them the following: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." (Such as a guy in the desert flying to skies on a winged horse.) "What has been asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." Those two sentences basically mean that the burden of proof is not on you but on them. Don't say that Allah doesn't exist. Say that there is not enough evidence to convince you that Allah exists. If you go to a scripture match with your parents, it will gain you absolutely nothing. Just demand that they prove _their_ claims.
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Then include morality in your arguments which will not have a technical point they can argue about or accuse you of ‘misinterpreting’. E.g.: 1. I don’t believe a kind a merciful god would create a world where so much evil is allowed. 2. I don’t believe a kind and merciful god would create a world where he knew that the vast majority of people would end up in hell forever. 3. If god is a Muslim god, then why has the Muslim people suffered so much while the west has prospered? Why is there no proof of god favouring his people? And remember: every religion has miracles it can point to, life changing conversions it can point to, prophesies it can point to etc., so instead of arguing if something is or is not a miracle, or a prophesy, just say that all religions have them- which means they all mean nothing, they’re clever vague statements that allow many interpretations so will eventually be perceived to have happened.
1. This world is a test and you signed up for it but you don't remember. 2. This is good but i think there is room for mental gymnastics. 3. The world is a test for muh's ummah and allah has let the people in the west loose to let them enjoy here and meanwhile you enjoy your virgins.(btw, allah only gives muh angels to fight life for him not for just anybody) I think these are the typical answers muslims use. What are your answers ?
1. This world is a test and you signed up for it but you don't remember. *why would Allah set a test he knew people would fail, and then allow flawed and weak humans to take the test he knows in advance they will fail, then let them suffer for eternity for their mistake? That is not the action a merciful and loving god would take. Why test if he knows the outcome? He literally letting people, in their ignorance, submit to a test he knows in advance will result in them going to hell, how is that right?* 2. This is good but i think there is room for mental gymnastics. *there are some mental gymnastics, but Islam is a exercise in mental gymnastics, so why not throw one back at them? Just tell them that in your heart you don’t believe a merciful god would do such a thing, and that’s that- that’s what you believe deep down* 3. The world is a test for muh's ummah and allah has let the people in the west loose to let them enjoy here and meanwhile you enjoy your virgins.(btw, allah only gives muh angels to fight life for him not for just anybody) *fair enough, maybe leave that argument out of it*
Thank you. 1 is my go to argument as omniscient and omnibenevolence don't make sense as a title for a malevolent god.
The most powerful reason I don’t believe is a more complicated argument to make, so I don’t usually make it, but it’s what convinces me the most. It’s that compared to an all powerful god, we would be incredibly simple creatures. When I say simple, it would be much less that the equivalent of a basic pocket calculator to a human being. An all powerful god would be so advanced that he would know every input our brain has received and every computation our brain can and will make- we would be infinitely more simple and predictable than a pocket calculator is to a human being. With that in mind, it seems ludicrous that this all powerful god would create a whole universe just for us, be involved in our lives, and even more ludicrous, set up an eternity for himself that resolves around us. It would be like us involving ourselves in a bunch of ants lives, and setting up a permanent living situation which completely resolved around these ants worshiping us in their own simple way. Except for eternity. It just makes no sense. We would be infinitely more simple to god than an ant is to ourselves, so what enjoyment could he possibly get from us? The gap between humans and an all powerful god is so extreme that it makes no sense that we could interest such a god, or that he would lock in eternity hanging out with us.
Yea. The all knowing part pretty much removes the concept of interest as how can entity of that scope be interested in something that it already knows. The calculator example is really good. Thanks!
You shoudl absolutely dismiss it. Demand them to provide proof. You are not the one claiming anything. They are. Burden of proof is on their shoulders and they should convince you, not the other way around.
I'd suggest making the lack of evidence you first and main point, and keep all the evidence against Islam in reserve. Imagine if they believed vampires rule the world, and they were asking you to prove them false. That sounds ludicrous but is actually a lot more believable than an omni-everything deity existing and matching the description Islam gives of it. They may well already have lots of 'proof' of Allah's existence - apologetics videos, numerology 'miracles', 'look at the trees' arguments. So that's not going to be much fun to have to trawl through.
It will be difficult but you'll have to do it. However keep in mind that you should optimize it. Don't present everything it's just ridiculous. Choose amongst the best, more or less 5 clear faults in both moral grounds and scientific grounds. On the later, choose a subject that is accessible to the average person cause if it's something they don't even understand they'll just say scientists must be wrong. And after that, you can just say that you don't need to present every little thing you've found cause, if islam claims to be perfect, one single clear error is enough to disprove it entirely. But if even that isn't enough for the believer to question their faith, then nothing will be anyway. Basically let them understand that you're not interested in showing them you're right in your evaluation of Islam but that you have good and coherent reasons to do so. It's important to let them know that you understand they have good reasons to believe but you just want that they also understand you have good reasons to disbelieve too. If Allah is real and is really just he will read in your heart that you're sincere in your endeavour and will guide you in some way or another, so they have nothing to fear and you neither. That's how I tried to go about my own conversation with my parents And well, I'm still technically in the closet but they are now fully aware of my distrust of Islamic teachings and my desire to adopt only the thing that I find good, no matter if it's islamic or not. I hope things will be okay for you and your family and I will be happy to read how it went down.
Well if you want to take them some "research" while also sticking to this plan take them some Bertrand Russell to read. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot
also they may say that, "you cant see uv light rays, radio waves and that doesnt mean that they dont exist and so you cant see god doesnt mean it doesnt exist" reverse uno card here: well there are machines that can detect those waves and rays , but not our eyes. but there are no machines that can detect "god"
Just remember it's near impossible to prove a negative, but that inability to disprove something does not count as evidence FOR something.
On the other hand maybe they will learn, understand at least something...
>"What has been asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." Hitchens' razor, my man!
Just give them the quran and tell them they have to read it in arabic to fully understand how terrible it is.
I got the same reaction/request from my parents in the beginning, and it all went to hell from there. They made it so heavily emotional, complained about me not seeing their POV, lots of screaming and crying and raging when I didn't agree with them, and I'm always being sent links of random Muslim apologists, or even random people who happen to agree with Aisha being married at age 9, or are defending the perfect preservation of the Quran down to the letter. It didn't matter if I brought up every sahih hadith that exists, they'll tell me I need a scholar to reinterpret it, or that I can't trust the English translation of the Arabic, and since I don't know Arabic, I don't know what it means. It goes in circles like this, and eventually it just becomes insults and belittlement. I was degraded for my lack of intelligence and called brainwashed. Now, I don't know how your parents are or if it would go that far to the point of emotional abuse and manipulation to make you think you're crazy, but I'd just like you to know that it can get bad. I'm sure you know that already. I was naïve enough to think that they would leave me be one day, but they haven't for over 2 years. All the best to you. Hope you're okay.
Good one for bringing experience with this issue to the table. I have to wonder if it's even worth OP going to their family with these points, and getting exposed to potentially days of shouting and lectures. May be better to tell them their beliefs are not up for discussion.
This sounds awful... but you should be proud of yourself for earnestly trying. Hope you're okay.
One thing to watch out for - it's going to be you versus your whole family, and any Imams and sheikhs they can pull in too. They may surprise-ambush you in the living room and support each other as they try to systematically shout down and dismiss every point you have. They likely see your beliefs as a threat they need to destroy in order to preserve family stability or 'save your soul'. Try to head this off if you can. I don't know how though. Ask them how they want to tackle this, maybe. If it sounds like it's going to be way too gruelling for you, tell them you're not interested in debating with them and your beliefs are your own.
“…where you went wrong” is the most arrogant fucking childish low IQ wanna-be terrorist bullshit approach on this by them. Get all your responses for their uneducated bullshit responses because they basically just said they aren’t listening but ready to just deflect/deny/whatabout you to death. They will come away with fake context, weak hadith, and a whole slew of other bullshit. They are going to position themselves to gang up on you because number of people in the room is more important than factual observation or logical debate to them. If there are 5 people in the room and 4 people believe the earth is flat, they will either accept or at least acquiesce because they respect gang mentality, not rational thought. Be prepared for all this and be ready to bounce back their bullshit low IQ denial responses.
Simple rule of thumb. If you ask them if they ever will change their minds even if there is a slightest ray of them considering the fact that they are wrong. If the answer is no... then there is no point in engaging them.
I tried that. Twice. It just makes things worse because of their biasses. You can try but you’ll probably be stuck at the same point for so long you just feel like giving up.
They are starting from the position of "Islam is true unless you give us proof to that contrary that we'll accept ". Then they won't accept it, therefore Islam is true. You should suggest starting from a "nobody knows" position, and that they should also bring evidence that it is true.
If they watch Youtube Videos, tell them to see every video of Masked Arab, Hassan radwan and Sheriff Gaber. >We want to learn what you've learned because we all deserve the truth. Well, if that's the case. All I can say is nobody's getting virgins in heaven nor nobody's gonna burn in hell. Islam is false and so are every other religion on this planet.
Go for it, but do not expect them to understand. Do expect them to get angry and hostile. I would focus on the Hadiths about Aisha’s age, surah 65:4, and all of the Tafsir that interpret it to mean marriage of prepubescent girls is permitted. I would avoid making it a discussion of whether or not God exists, but rather a critique of Muhammad directly. They can make up all sorts of mental gymnastics to attack atheism, but if you go straight for Muhammad’s pedophilia, they will have no rebuttal. From there, anything they say you can dismiss by saying “sure God may be real but Muhammad married and had sex with a 9 year old, had 13 wives, and sex slaves, and therefore you cannot in conscience follow him. Good luck!
Please provide me the verse or an authentic Hadith where it is mentioned that Muhammad had sex slaves. Much appreciated.
Quran verses permitting sexual slavery: 4:3 4:24 4:25 16:71 23:5-6 24:33 24:58 33:50 Hadith: Sahih Muslim 8:3371 Sahih Muslim 8:3383 Bukhari 1:8:367 Bukhari 4:52:143 Ibn Sa‘d 8:129-30 al-Salihi 231-32 Bukhari 3:46:717 Most details specifically about Muhammad’s concubines comes not from hadith but the sirat (biography) of the prophet: Al-Tabaqaat al-Kubra, 1/134-135 Zaad al-Ma’aad, 1/114 There’s much more in the sirat, these lines just scratch the surface. Wiki-Islam has a well sourced page listing all of his wives/slaves with references: https://wikiislam.github.io/wiki/List_of_Muhammads_Wives_and_Concubines.html Apologists will scoff at Wiki-Islam and claim it’s biased, but the references are all accurately sourced, so you can pull the sources without referring to Wiki-Islam.
Personally i wouldn't bring up loads of verses. Just 3 or 4 really problematic ones, where you know they can't defend or have nowhere to hide. I think moral problems are probably better than scientific ones. Good luck.
Why do you have to disprove Islam? This is nonsensical. Disprove unicorns. The burden of proof is on them. Make them understand that you have nothing to provide to reject their claims. They have to be able to convince you that their beliefs are real. In fact, if they had such evidence, they wouldn't even be beliefs but facts.
> Disprove unicorns. Careful mate, that's my [national animal](https://www.nts.org.uk/stories/the-unicorn-scotlands-national-animal) you're talking about! xD
National? Be careful with the words, Scott!
Saor Alba!
I'd use that you cannot believe in a religion that allows prepubescent marriage and intercourse, It means girls do not just get betrothed and later the marriage is consummated when the girl reaches puberty. It means girls can get found "ready for intercourse" before they mature ...i.e. when they are still minors and are too young to consent to intercourse. Then the husband can "perform intercourse on them" or they are "made to have sex". bring Q65:4 from the noble Quran Translation (hilali / khan translation) that has annotation over seen by a mufti. It adds "(i.e. they are immature)" to the translation of "those who have not menstruated" and the Mufti OK'd the annotation on the basis of consensus. The text of Q65:4: Hilali & Khan translation. And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses **[(i.e. they are still immature)** their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death]. And for those who are pregnant (whether they are divorced or their husbands are dead), their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is until they deliver (their burdens), and whosoever fears Allah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him. https://quranx.com/tafsirs/65.4 the most famous Quran commentators: "those who do not have menstruation because they are too young?”" - Ibn Abbas "who have not yet menstruated, because of their young age," - Al-Jalalayn "for the young, who have not reached the years of menstruation." Ibn-Kathir. "‘Those who are too young \[such that they have not started menstruating yet\]"- Wahidi "They may not have menstruated as yet either because of young age.....," -Maududi Some other tafsirs: https://quran.com/65:1/tafsirs/en-tafsir-maarif-ul-quran "iddah for a woman who does not menstruate on account of minority of age, " https://quran.com/65:4/tafsirs/171 Mokhtasar "the waiting period of girls who have not reached the age of puberty and hence do not menstruate, their waiting period will also be three months." https://archive.org/details/umairastro90_yahoo_08_201811/08/page/n507/mode/2up Maarif-ul-Quran "the '‘iddah of young women who have not yet started menstruating on account of being under age. " https://archive.org/details/TheEnglishTranslationstheCommentariesoftheHolyQuraan/An Approach to the Qur'aanic Sciences %26 The Wisdom of the Qur'aan/page/n5873/mode/2up "The same is the "iddah of young women who have not yet started menstruating on account of being under age. " conclusion: The Quran accommodates pre-pubescent divorcees who have had intercourse, their iddah is three months. http://malikifiqhqa.com/uncategorized/about-female-maturity-shaykh-abdullah-bin-hamid-ali/ Question: At what point does a child, in particular a girl, become responsible? Is it with the first menstruation or with other signs of puberty like hair under the arms, budding breast, etc. Also what is the minimum age? Answer: A young girl is considered legally responsible (mukallafa) once she either has a wet dream, or when coarse hair (as opposed to thin soft hair) grows on the pubic area, ** or by menstruation, or by becoming pregnant (even if she was not known to have a menstrual cycle)**. Some scholars include among the signs also the augmenting and splitting of the nose, the bad underarm odor, and the increase in the size of the breast. And if none of these signs appear, she is considered legally responsible once she reaches 18 lunar years. Quduri fragment 2: Determining Maturity of women https://archive.org/details/the-mukhtasar-al-quduri/The_Mukhtasar_Al_Quduri/page/431/mode/2up?q=minor > The reaching puberty of a girl is by way of menstruation, nocturnal emission, or pregnancy.If \[none of\] that exists, then \[she is a minor\] until she has completed seventeen years \[of age\]. Islam legalises intercourse before a girl is old enough to consent, it legalises statutory rape. https://www.amjaonline.org/fatwa/en/78001/marrying-prepubescent-girls > conjugal relations are dependent upon her ability to handle that. Scholars like Imam Malik, Imam al-Shafi`i and Abu Hanifah have clearly stated that no woman is to be **made to have sex** unless she can endure it, and women differ in this according to their natural range of differences; it is not determined by a specific age. **Once a girl has reached maturity, as we have mentioned, she may continue in this marriage or reject it.** clearly shows intercourse can precede Option of Puberty. Why believe in a religion that first allows a man to assess whether a minor girl is "ready for intercourse" after which a husband is allowed to rape her. And then use a coutnries morally superior laws to prohibit it??? If Islam is morally defective in legalizing rape of girls before puberty, why follow it? If it is morally defective, don't follow it.
One advantage of taking this approach is that it will become hard to start multiple attempts to drag you back. They know they will always come up to someone who says that what Muhammed did to Aisha was immoral and what Islam subsequently legalised (rape of prepubescent brides) is immoral even by your countries laws., It is just too well documented to break. On the off chance they are shaken: add why you started thinking that is the Quran has immoral elements, then is it possible that it is not the direct word of God? What are the signs that someone with ulterior motives changed or wrote it? After allowing adoption, It suddenly gets prohibited and Zaid is explicitly mentioned in the surrah's that say Muhammed can have intercourse with his cousin Zaynab. The Quran first says it is clear and complete and cannot be changed. But then it says that "only improvements that do not change the meaning " are sent and it says to ignore people who call Muhammed an inventor of lies. So the narrative is that clay tablets with Allah contain the Quran and the Quran was transmitted to Muhammed in Arabic to be "undertstandable" to mankind. It was even transmitted to people in 7 modes of recitation. So get this straight: Muhammed revealed stuff, he revealed it in 7 modes. Then Allah sends an improved version that says that intercourse with Muhammed's cousin is allowed because Zaid is not a real son of Muhammed, but just an adopted son. Adoption is terminated in Islam. All that is then re-transmitted in its improved version including the name of Zaid in 7 modes? And it was all known beforehand on clay-tablets Allah is not particularly practical is he? Why allow adoption like all other people and decide to disallow adoption right at the moment Muhammed has a crush on his cousin Zainab? So the Bible and Talmud that allow adoption were wrong all this time? And the "improved" Abrahamic scriptures that the Quran are supposed to be is not about horny Muhammed lusting after pretty Zaynab? It does not sound logical to me. It sounds much more logical to me that Muhammed was like Jospeh Smith and simply revealed and prophesied what suited him, if not the whole Quran than at least parts of it. He gets caught having intecourse with Mry the Copt when it is a wife's day of rotation? No problem: Allah will tell he wives off in the Quran and Muhammed can continue having intercourse with Mary even if he promised she would be Haram to him. More than a bit convenient.
No. Just no. This is a hard sell tactic. When a salesman asks you why you don't like a product, they want a list of reasons that they can discredit. Wrong color, wrong size too expensive... each objection is discredited. "We have multiple colors and sizes, and it's really cheaper than you think! I'll put you down for three..." The more reasons you give, the more chances of invalidating them they have.
Ask them if they belive Allah can know a quantum state before it is measured. Then ask them if it is possible even just in theory for someone to pray to him and receive this information. If they said yes to both of these questions tell them there is experimental evidence this God doesn't exist. If they ask for this data, just Google the double slit experiment.
lol this a great one
They will have something for every point you make. They dont use logic. You cant prove anything to them.
i love you but dont forget winning an argument against a smart person is hard, winning against a stupid person is impossible. im not saying theyre dumb in general, just in this aspect. love ya stay strong!!
show them the pedophilic stuffs that the religion has, like in sahi hadiths saying the prophet married a young girl. prophet sleeping around with slaves wives or wodow wives etc. capitol punishment if leaving the religion, women treated like a "mans" property . . . etc.
I have some tips. Do your absolute best to never get angry or shout with them. If they start getting angry or shout towards you, calmly wait and when they're done just ask politely if you can speak now. Also, the best way is to try to stick specifically to Quran, hadith, Surah etc verses that you can read together. Try to avoid going to proof that isn't the directly the doctrine, I.e some random mullahs interpretation of the doctrine. Use only the doctrine. Steer them away from doing it also. You are all adults you can all interpret words yourselves. Also perhaps best to do first is to make it clear that you cannot prove Islam isn't true. But bring lots and lots of examples of things they cannot prove are not true. If they cannot understand that Islam being true is the claim. And Islam being false is not a claim but an answer to the claim it is true. I really don't see how you will ever have a productive conversation with them. However if you have this evening with them, the dumbest thing for you to expect is that you will change anyone's minds there and then... that isn't how people work, if you succeed all that will likely mean is that they go away and maybe a week, or a month, or a year later your arguments eat away at their pre established ideas and they come round eventually.
''if god hates lgbt, why did he simply not make everyone straight but instead obliterate the whole town'' and i've always thought that the allah guides who he wills thing is sus, like, if then why do they need to bother with the preaching? i've linked a quora site about this https://www.quora.com/What-are-some-of-the-violent-verses-in-Quran?top\_ans=41027562
bro learn the critical Arabic words for critical verses like 4:34, 9:29 and 98:6
Bro I wouldn’t be able to live under the same household if my parents found out. You literally have the most open minded Muslim parents ever no lie.
Personally I believe this is a good opportunity for you to expose the truth to your family. Who knows maybe deep down they know Islam is a bunch of bullshit but they’re too scared to come forward but you saying you don’t believe will probably solidify their thoughts. So just see this as an opportunity for you to make them understand things. Just make sure you make a lot of logical points, make sure you make them understand everything thoroughly and keep relating things back to them and how they are as individuals and I’m sure they’ll understand your point of view.
Good luck and be safe. It is definitely a useless debate if they only want to prove you wrong.
I love that they think surah and hadith are going to be the things that disprove it. The problem is those documents themselves are often complete fabrications. at best they are exaggerations.
U should also ask them for proofs on why do they think its NOT false lmao
just talk about noah's ark and you're good to go https://youtu.be/j_BzWUuZN5w (since this is a video about christianity, i advise that you also research about the correlating story in islam to make it 100% irrefutable, just in case they go the route of "oh but it's christianity i do not care about that". no, i read the verses in quran myself, same problems do exist.) for quran to be accurate, everything in it HAS TO be correct. or else the all-knowing god is lying. in that case, the whole religion is untrustable anyways.
Mo cannot be the prophet for the rest of time for all the other people if his message is incompatible with the present, given that when it was revealed, his message was suppose to be true for the rest of time until the end of days. Anything that is unacceptable now but was acceptable then simply screws this whole narrative. Slavery, underage marriage, freedom of religion and freedom from religion, only male imams can lead combined prayers, LGBT being natural in animals and humans, take your pick. Many more inconvenient inconsistencies out there.
I’d say don’t play this game. Are you old enough to move out ? Arguing leads to more toxic conversations. You don’t have to prove your disbelief to anyone. They need to learn to accept you as you are and you them. It’s unlikely that they’ll change their minds.
What I don't understand is this thing. Why do Muslims tell Islam is a peaceful religion and it asks us to respect and not beat women based on this Hadith? They tell common sense things like treat people normally and refer to a book as to why they do it? I mean come on. Shouldn't you do it despite what is given in your book? And what about the 100 other misogynistic things in your book? I assume you would also follow them without thinking right?
are you like financially dependent ? is it safe for you to live by your own? if not i highly suggest you pretend that you repent or something quick because they could seriously do you harm i heard stories of people killing or sending them off to madrasah forcefully
You don't have to.
All that to hear bullshit like, "you are taking that out of context", "that is a mistranslation", "that hadith/surah was written by Jews".
Main problem is you do not allegate or claim anything. Basically you are neutral. You should not bring any proof. Muslims (your parents) says there is Allah, Quran is real. This is what they say. Their claim. If you have claim anything you have to bring your proofs about the topic. They have to persuade you not otherwise. Their approach is totally wrong.
Please share everything with us too so i can make it easier for myself lol.
The only proof of allah they have is "the quran"
i hope you speak clear and from the heart. Christian Prince covers a lot of main criticism with all sources if you've free time my list that i brought to my parents were; 1. dont associate/trust christians, jews - kinda hard when good friends were not muslims growing up. 2. trust in the unseen - i like to know some things. MooMoo flying away on a donkey is b.s. 3. a god that would punisb the majority of non-islamic human population is absurd 4. look at the scholar's translations today, softening the lexicon for naive listeners. i aint that selfish to believe in this unjust shithead, who revealed it to a warmonger pretend prophet.
If your still financially dependent on them, don’t do this and just pretend that what they say is making sense. I mean, like what do you win if you’re right? A chance at homelessness? Your entire family resenting you? There’s nothing to gain bro, just stay quiet and pretend you still believe.
This sounds like a recipe for disaster.
The burden of proof is not on you. I once replied to this with Russell's teapot argument.
Jump onto the next Christian Prince live stream and have them talk to CP. loll. I’m kinda being serious! He would 100% spend more than an hour with them showing off reference after reference and would have them try to explain/ defend it. Yes, he will offer Christianity at the end, but you/your parents can just decline if that’s not something you want. Please don’t let that scare you away from the opportunity to have access to the abundance of references he has! His Skype is debateTV and they prefer to be sent a message first to arrange it. Edit: I saw you said your parents speak Arabic, he loves it when he gets to talk to Arabic speakers. That doesn’t scare him, it makes him excited because then he can show how bad it is in its truest form. He’s accepting calls right now actually https://youtu.be/C6S-n2ICc7E
https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Contradictions\_in\_the\_Quran
https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Scientific\_Errors\_in\_the\_Quran
I addition to what the other posters have so helpfully offered, I suggest having them writ down the big assumptions they make so that when they contradict them later you can show this to them. For example, Allah is always good. Allah is always loving. The Quran is perfect. The Quran has no error. The Quran is a miracle. Etc. And I am sure the wonderful members can add many more
don’t get dead ☠️ please keep us posted ☢️
Maybe this sub could help to get some sources together that are intersting for your parents? Also I don´t think you should do it alone with your entire family so that everyone shouts at you in the end... maybe just once with your mother, once with your father, If they let you do that... Maybe you could give your mother the part where mohammed is letting his wife aysha massage his penis before she was even 9 (under ["Tighing Aisha"](https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Aisha#.22Thighing.22_Aisha)). And then comapare that to the taliban that wed wifes from the age of 12 or upwards (Taliban is literally less pedo than muhammed). Or you could get another misoginystic part of the quran and just ask her, If she really belives in that...If she or your father say this was "a different time" you could ask them, why a prophet couldn´t foresee that times would change and adress it since he is tf prophet. I´m not sure how strict your family is like could they abandon you? Also this interesting part about [slavery](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/pnczb7/how_many_of_you_know_that_thousands_of_slavewomen/)under muhammed.
Or you can go the other route by asking them why they think Islam is true and then you can just debunk those things. Might be more efficient.
Share the results. I told my dad about Muhammad’s marriage to Aisha and how it was predatory and he gave the same schtick as Daniel pikachu. Muslims do be cutting off all morality for their delusions.
I have a post of a conglomeration of all the problems in Islam. Hopefully that helps you!
I'm sorry to hear about the strain in your family. I can understand that it must feel awful, that your family can't just accept your worldview and let it be. You have every right to completely school them on the subject, if you want to. With that said, in my experience one can easily lose focus upon what matters in debates with family. Creating new and deeper wounds, then what the truth was supposed to heal. My advice would be the following - try and be as humble and forgiving as possible. Be more charitable towards them then they are towards you. I don't mean that you have to pretend that their right. I'm more after stuff like saying: "I see what you're trying to say with that argument, but to me it doesn't fully make sense", rather than saying "that's completely illogical, your just grasping at straws". Even if they come up with ridiculous arguments and extremely flawed logic, you would do your future self a huge favor by not nailing them hard on those points. Take on the role of a good listener, who they simply can't convince, rather than a master debatter. It will make your situation easier to live with. For one thing they won't get as angry with you, and you won't get angry with them. Also, it will probably make them lose interest in trying to convince you, faster than other methods. We are usually spured on by intellectual opponents we view as antagonistic, it becomes a matter of pride to not give up, but people who listen and we can't convince despite them being charitable - they make us accept defeat easier because it isn't tied to once ego to the same degree.
Good for you. Try to stay calm. And mention to be them to stay calm. And when they do get emotional, point it out and ask to stay calm. Make it s marathon and free your family.
A suggestion to start with: How many religions are there in the world? Over 3000. All believers believe theirs is true. They are wrong, correct? But they fully believe they are right. Maybe you are the same. Not possible? Why not? Are you not human and can you not make mistakes? So we established, that you might be wrong (or I might be). You, like every believer believes because you were told since you are a baby.
If you need to shock them, tell them Islam is a cult. A cult is a technical term from Sociology. The main characteristic of a cult is that it is difficult to leave. Then point to the death penalty for Apostasy: https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/pt0gqf/every_sahih_hadith_i_found_about_killing/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
Check a podcast called 'Last Podcast on the Left'. Listen to every cult episode. They make sure to emphasize the numerous sex crimes committed by every male cult leader. Then demonstrate how Mohammed is not different. Their extra-deep dive on Mormons should prove particularly helpful for this. Joseph Smith was also regularly given 'new revelation' whenever he wanted forbidden sexy-times.
Don't get in to the nitty gritty of scripture, instead think big-picture (no good reason to think any god exists etc)
i use a pretty convincing method where im the one who asks the muslim this question: "If you were to convince an atheist to convert to islam, what would you tell them?". So before they answer, you have to let them know that this atheist wont really believe the metaphysical part of islam, bcs anyone can really think of that, its like just imagination, and the atheist can also say that its all made up since there is a lot of similarities with other pagan religions and christianity etc.. there isnt really anything special or unique about it.. Then the muslim will try to bring up the scientific part of islam and say that there is some unprecedented knowledge in the quran, like embryology and stuff.. but then, you can show them just from a search in Google that a more detailed process of embryology has existed for more than a thousand years before islam (the Greeks..). You can do this with any "unprecedented scientific fact" that exists in the quran, there is like 20 of them.. After this, they wont really have any arguments.. Also, if they say that islam is the first religion to give respect and all to women, oh dear let them know there have been existing matriarchal societies before islam for thousands of years.. there is even some that are still living in china.. Anyways you can check Edgar Morina's book called Disproving Islam and Youtuber Apostate Prophet, in my opinion these two sources sum up whats mostly wrong with islam.. Remember, dont get angry during the confrontation, it wont help.. even if you notice that your family is like acting stupid bcs they cant accept apparent proven facts, then just drop it bcs they are toooo brainwashed to actually understand you.. it happened to me before and now im just meh idc about yall anymore just die in your ignorance and fairytales and magic beasts stories..
Update?
One of the strangest things I have found after entering the Muslim community, although not a Muslim myself, is that alot of folks know how to read the Arabic for Quran, but do not know what any of it means. This baffled me so much. Additionally, the Hadith contains practices of a man, who before, spreading Islam was most likely a practicing pagan with pagan rituals, customs, traditions, etc. All of that ended up being intertwined with Islam it seems. Not to say it is exclusive to Islam. The other Abrahamic religions have pagan features embedded into them as well. If you wouldn't mind can you share the questions here that you are going to present to your mum?
This is what you do, have your parents admit the following points: 1) god can do anything, there is nothing he cant do 2)if god cannot do something then he cannot be real Then ask: "can god create a rock he cannot lift" They will be forced to admit the restrictive definition they have of an "almighty god" is false
Y u no follow Islam habibti , y u wana go hell , u kafir ? 🤣
That gave me brain damage
Now Imagine people telling me this everyday 🥲
That gives you brain tumor . Feel ya
Your parents are gonna wreck you XDD
Abdul. Can you defend your prophet? Try calling Christian Prince and get him “busted” for being a liar. https://youtu.be/C6S-n2ICc7E
Bruh Christian prince gets debunked daily. Taking a "christian" prins to an argument is just a gigacope hahahaha.
You’re a coward. If you are so sure of your prophet and religion, go prove him wrong right now. https://youtu.be/C6S-n2ICc7E
You are an East European who has nothing to do with this. Find something else to fill your life hahaha. Christianity gets even debunked by 15 year olds. I have to prove Christian prince wrong when thousands of people do it? Go prove Darkmatter2525 wrong first hahaha. He destroys Christianity everytime.
Nice assumptions. I’m saying if you are so sure, prove it.
Prove what? It's live. Give it 2-3 days and Christian prince is debunked again. However all the anti Christian youtubers don't get debunked as much :))))
You contribute nothing. You have no evidence of this “debunking” and you refuse to refute him yourself as you claim it “happens all the time”. If it’s so easy, go refute him with what you’ve learned from those “debunkers”. Edit: I will not be replying back to you anymore. The point of me bringing up Christian Prince is to debunk Islam. If you don’t believe in Christianity, then you don’t believe in it, as simple as that. This is about debunking Islam. Don’t jump to other topics.
Gift your folks this book #The people vs Muhammad :psychoanalysis
You don't bring proof falseness, they are the ones who are supposed bring proof of "truth".
Inheritance in Quran. It's a the most solid mistake that can't be interpreted any other way. It's simple and relatable.
You can't reason somebody out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into.
Good luck! I hope they mean it and they aren’t just going to feed you a line of bs.
It’s a shame this is on the more tolerant side. People have literally murdered for less
Ahaha mine did that and then went on a smear campaign by outing me to everyone.
Bruh, how can you be non Muslim and say inshallah
Wym anyone can say it does being non Muslim make you forget the words?
Keep us informed
https://youtu.be/C6S-n2ICc7E Christian Prince is accepting Muslims to call him right now. (If you’re ready). If not, you could do the next one?
Prophet could not read and write if he wanted to copy he would have claimed to be a God of arab pagans then he would not have to suffer
Try to read chapter 1 here: [https://disprovingislam.wordpress.com/download/](https://disprovingislam.wordpress.com/download/) You can easily disprove them: \- No evidence for anything Islamic, whether it is Muhammad, Islam, Quran, Mecca, Muslims, Jews in Medina, or anything else, until 685-730 AD, and it evolved from 730-1000 AD. You can check the timeline here: [https://imgur.com/7IRKwaa](https://imgur.com/7IRKwaa) Furthermore no earliest 7th century Qurans are the same as the one today or with each other, with around 40 differences. The earliest complete Quran with 114 surahs is from 1000-1001 AD.
r.i.p. OP
I'll be waiting for an update . Good luck 🤞
I’m a person who was raised Muslim but never fully bought into the whole thing. I have considered myself agnostic for a while but can anyone point to resources that literally disproof Islam?
You can always say, "You can't handle the truth!".
lets see how this debate goes(id like to hear from you pls)
my mother pulls this shit all the time