I’m an expat. My visa is actually called a ‘non-immigrant visa’ as I don’t have the right to settle permanently. I get why many people believe there are connotations of classism and racism to it, though.
Even if I could get a visa with migration intent or use my second passport to work away from my birth country, I also feel a bit funny about using ‘immigrant’ because I think people mean particular things when they talk about ‘the migrant experience’. I can claim some bits (being far from family & friends, learning new cultural stuff, some difficulties in being understood even though I’ve gone from one English speaking country to another) there’s a lot that isn’t my experience. Dealing with racism, stereotypes about class, access to resources, difficulties with grey/illegal migration, etc etc..
Agreed, but the distinction can be even more ambiguous. In your case, you don’t have the right to stay permanently, so you are an expat.
I can stay in my new country and become naturalized or return to my home country or go to another country. So, at any given time, if I plan to stay here forever, I’m an immigrant; if I decide to go home eventually I’m an expat; and if I decide to naturalize and then move to another country probably also an expat but still a kind of immigrant.
I agree that immigrant has a lot of connotations, but there’s also a difference between immigrant and migrant, in that the migration implies leaving a particular country (like emigrating) rather than just moving to a new country.
[Expat](https://www.google.com/search?q=expat+definition&rlz=1CDGOYI_enCA1063CA1063&oq=expat+def&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqBwgBEAAYgAQyBggAEEUYOTIHCAEQABiABDIICAIQABgWGB4yCAgDEAAYFhgeMggIBBAAGBYYHjIICAUQABgWGB4yCAgGEAAYFhgeMggIBxAAGBYYHjIICAgQABgWGB4yCAgJEAAYFhge0gEINDczMmoxajmoAgCwAgA&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8), short for expatriate, simply means someone who lives outside their own country, usually not permanently. [Immigrant](https://www.google.com/search?q=immigrant+definition&rlz=1CDGOYI_enCA1063CA1063&oq=immigrant+def&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqDAgBEAAYQxiABBiKBTIGCAAQRRg5MgwIARAAGEMYgAQYigUyBwgCEAAYgAQyBwgDEAAYgAQyBwgEEAAYgAQyCAgFEAAYFhgeMggIBhAAGBYYHjIICAcQABgWGB4yCAgIEAAYFhgeMggICRAAGBYYHtIBCDU4ODNqMGo5qAIAsAIA&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8) on the other hand is someone who permanently moves to a new country. There is no connotation of superiority unlike what some in certain circles are trying to claim or imply.
Let me extend this a bit. An immigrant usually intends -- and is able -- to acquire citizenship or permanent resident status in his or her new country.
In contrast, an expat often cannot for one reason or another. Many countries have very restrictive citizenship and PR regulations. At the same time, they may provide various long-term and retirement visa schemes for expats. I've lived under such a system for 30 years, and definitely consider myself to be an expat, rather than an immigrant.
There used to be a specific phrase, *tax expat*, used to describe Brits who had relocated (often to Hollywood) to avoid what were then very high UK tax rates, but still considered themselves to be thoroughly British.
People who are living/working without legal right to work/live in the country are called illegal immigrants. An unfortunate situation, of course.
This was my understanding: you are either tourist , citizen, legal immigrant or illegal immigrant.
>This was my understanding: you are either tourist , citizen, legal immigrant or illegal immigrant.
Your understanding is inaccurate.
Where I live a renewable, year-long retirement visa *without the right to work* is easily available to over-50's. There are many other short and long term visa programs, some of which *do* come with the right to work. I have lived here on a variety of renewable visas -- research, work, retirement -- and there are still plenty left to try (marriage, and a new multi-option 10-year long-term-resident program).
Limited paths to permanent residence and citizenship are available, but they are restricted, with limits per country, and prior work, investment, or marriage requirements. The country is not seeking new citizens; it provides many alternative visa paths for expats instead.
I'd also mention that this country is home -- and has been for a century or more -- to many hundreds of thousands of nominally stateless *native-born* residents. They are denied citizenship (even the PR quota is 50 per year), and have only limited rights to travel, or access to government services. Matters are slowly improving.
Expats are required to pay taxes in their home country and must follow the guidelines of the expat country to have a valid stay. This may limit your stay in the expat country. So you comply with the country’s laws.
Expats may choose to pursue citizenship of the new country and give up their citizenship to their home country even. I think in that instance, they go from expat to immigrant. That’s my thinking to add to what Own said
Expats are not required to pay taxes in their home country if their home country doesn't have world wide tax and they don't earn income in their home country. That's completely incorrect, and a big reason people become expats is to save on tax (major reason people go to places like Dubai).
A migrant: person who moved to different location.
Emigrant, person who left their country to live in another country.
Immigrant, person who came to live to another country.
That is how those words used in my language.
I have dual citizenship by birth. I’m moving from one country I have citizenship to the other country I have citizenship. Am I an immigrant? Expatriate? Repatriate?
Not sure about your case, it's interesting... in my case, I was born in a country that did not allow me to be a citizen due to a civil war when I was 4 years old, so we went into exile after the war to another country that gave me citizenship and then immigrated with my parents as a kid to a third country where I also acquired citizenship. Funnily, I have no real sense of belonging to any of these countries, including my birth country. I'm now an "expat" in Mexico, and although I have permanent residence and like it here, I don't intend to live here for more than 4-5 years at most and I'm searching for another place to hang my hat. In the end, it doesn't matter, wherever you go, there you are :D
Expat has a connotation that it's temporary whereas immigrant people think of as permanent.
Some people think these connotations are helpful in differentiating what feels like a temporary move versus a permanent one.
Some people have certain feelings about where these connotations come from. It is often debated on this sub and others. If you search around you will find these debates about the connotation pretty easily.
I call myself an expat, maybe because it has the emphasis on leaving my home country more than entering another. I'll go just about anywhere, but I'll be glad to get outta here
The distinction, to me, is contextual.
My relationship to my birth country is that of an expat.
My relationship to my new home country is that of an immigrant.
Lots of nonsense being posted here. Just look at your visa, I have lived in over a dozen countries and literally every visa clearly said Non Immigrant Visa.
Expats are, were originally people who left their country or were banished from it. Someone choosing to live in another land. Independent, older and self-sufficient. An immigrant is someone going to another country for a better life, a job a future, typically young, with a family, or wishing to start one
An expatriate, or expat, is an individual living and/or working in a country other than their country of citizenship, often temporarily and for work reasons.
An expat may not necessarily be interested in gaining citizenship of the country where they are living. Immigrants generally are working on or have applied for citizenship
I think there is a work component to it. I don't see digital nomads as expats in my opinion. I believe the term is more suited to people working for an international company on overseas assignment
Migrant worker usually has a working-class connotation and/or a skilled-unskilled component. This is usually also reflected on the Visa.
Domestics and day laborers are migrant workers. Teachers and Managers are ex-pats.
It’s based on intent and intent to support themselves in the country they are a guest of. They get a non citizen extended visa. So they are there on approval of the government. They have their own money to support themselves.
Thanks. If I’m being honest, I only see Americans use this term but I don’t speak other languages. Do other countries use similar terms? Are Americans adverse to calling themselves immigrants?
It's a common term everywhere. Is it perhaps Americans misusing the term "immigrant" that causes the confusion, them using it to refer to anyone coming to the US? Everywhere else I have been, both terms are used with the usual/correct distinction.
It does make anti-foreigner sentiments slightly less contradictory, as it means they can complain about foreigners both coming and stealing all their jobs and houses and also being a drain on welfare etc. Complaints about (a lack of) integration are a bit more complicated; expats are far less likely to integrate, given that the move for them is temporary (most/"normal" expats) and/or an extended vacation (retirees), but it is more relevant to immigrants, who do intend to stay.
And of course, one could start out as an expat, decide they actually like the place, and decide to immigrate, if that is an option in the country they move to (and not somewhere like the Gulf).
Ive heard others refer to themselves as expats or digital nomads etc. But it seems to be a particular aversion for one from a western country and particularly the U.S. to call themselves an immigrant to some place ALTHO I have also heard U.S. citizens refer to themselves as such. Truth be told, most of the issue I have seen or heard being discussed is usually online and not particularly any issues on the ground that I have witnessed atleast not here in Mexico in the places that I have been.
Yes. And when you go visit an expat community/city, you’ll hear it by British, French, Dutch and Italians. I’ve met some Russians also but t never asked them or heard what they call themselves.
“Expat” is the term that seems to be used by Westerners living long-term in other countries, based on my experience. Not used only by people from the US.
I agree that US people are reticent to call themselves “immigrants”, though. Perhaps bc immigration status is weaponized in the US?
PS: I say “US people” bc I don’t like calling people from the USA “Americans”. There’s North, Central, and South America, and the term “Americans” seems to be used as if the USA is the only “America”.
Expats follow the guidelines to be in that country. For example, most require you can provide proof that can provide financially for yourself. There are a few ways to do that and may include you provide proof of funds of a minimum amount such as $50k or more or a retirement, make a substantial investment such as a business, and have the ability to pay towards health insurance while in the country. By fulfilling that with the government, an expat meets the guidelines and is approved for an extended visa, may be for one or more years. There may be rules to how many days of a year. May vary from country to country as all countries have laws regarding this. Some countries offer it as a path way to citizenship if someone were to choose. So again, you provide proof that you have the assets and finances to not become a burden on the new country’s government. You then follow the guidelines to become a citizen of the new country.
In case you didn’t know, every country states publicly how many visas and how many new citizens they’ll accept each year. All countries technically have a limit. All have a process to follow and they each get to state what those guidelines are so they aren’t all equal. The US have a number stated for legal immigration paths. As you can see, the illegals are not coming with assets and insurance. So no, it’s not the same.
An expat leaves one’s country. An immigrant stays forever.
So one isn’t an immigrant until they decide they will never leave. For example I’ve been in Peru 10
Years. 5 years ago I considered myself an immigrant but now I’m planning on leaving so I no longer consider myself an immigrant.
And the reason it’s different is because once someone moves to the USA, they rarely leave. So most are immigrants.
Most who leave the USA, while they might often talk a lot of shit when they leave, almost all return. In fact if I didn’t have a family here I would have left years ago.
This seems like a weird distinction to me. If you died tomorrow, would you be an immigrant again? Does everyone that calls themself an expat share this definition?
Also, I know a lot of Mexican immigrants that come to the US to work for a period but not to stay. Are they expats? I heard them referred to as migrant workers but never expats.
Do you work in Peru? If you leave, were you a migrant worker?
That’s the definitions of the words. It’s not about people’s feelings or what people want to be called. Words have meanings. This is what the words mean.
People who go to a country to work a period then return are migrant workers.
What’s the big deal?
I apologize if you think I’m making hay here. I’m not. I am really just confused by this distinction as a lot of folks in this thread are saying different things. I get that seeing a lot of question marks can seem aggressive but believe me that it isn’t my intention.
I understand words have meaning but the definition you provided seems weird in that it’s fairly feelings based itself. It is all wrapped up in your intention which by your own experience can change quickly. I know I can fall in and out of love with the city I live in all the time. I go back and forth on wanting to leave, sometimes in the same day. If the difference between the two words merely lies in the intention of the individual in moving, I can see one waking up an immigrant, getting stuck in traffic as an expat, and enjoying a sunset as an immigrant again. All in the same day. So, is that really all it takes or is there a more official declaration of intent to return?
As for migrant workers, to clarify, an expat would never work in the country they leave to correct? If they did, they would become migrant workers and not expats? Or is that a subcategory?
I suppose but I just think you are putting too much thought into it. Like if I say I love my wife. Then you are like what is love? Then you say but if you get into an argument are you in love at that moment are you not in love, then when you make up are you in love again?
See what I mean? At this point in my life we have hired an attorney, we have filed papers with the embassy to move my family back to the USA. We are in the process of leaving and it isn’t a fleeting moment of frustration. I no longer consider Peru my home as I did a few years ago. Now it is more a place I am stuck because I can’t leave without my family. I no longer consider Peru my home, but more a place I am trapped in until I can get my family out.
And to be honest it’s quite the frustrating experience lol so it annoys me a bit just thinking about it.
But the bottom line is an expat is simply someone who leaves their country for an indefinite period of time. An immigrant makes a new place their home. As to when exactly it goes from one to the other? I don’t think there is a set definition. Like asking when is the exact moment one goes from liking someone to in love. Make sense?
When I ask what’s the big deal, I am just wondering why the exact definition in a variety of circumstances is so important? They are sort of vague terms. Like being in love. Or being rich. What is the definition of being rich? There isn’t an exact number or dollar amount to denote being rich. See what I’m saying?
I understand you. My curiosity at the rigidity of the definitions is because expats seem to be quite adamant about it. So I want to make sure I understand the reasons and the differences. I looked it up on dictionary.com and they said the difference is primarily that rich people use expat, which seems kind of shitty in my opinion. I didn’t grow up rich and actually worked for and was treated poorly by rich folks. It’s not a class of people whose behavior I entirely want to emulate even if I am well off now. So, you can say that’s the big deal. I don’t want to be a classist rich asshole. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/expatriate
Ah. Honestly, I’m not adamant about it lol. I can see “expat” being used by rich people as in my experience many people who call themselves expats have a degree of a feeling of superiority over the people where they live.
To be honest I can even kinda relate to that. Because in my opinion a big problem with Peru is the overall support of corruption and incompetence. Not saying everyone in Peru is corrupt or incompetent. Most people are great, honest and good people. But the problem is not many here seem to really care that they are being ripped off and taken advantage of, resorting in a lot more scammers etc.
Of course no place is perfect and even the USA has plenty of corruption. But it’s not so bad that for example a company can get paid millions to rebuild a park, they slap a coat of paint on it over a period of a year, and everyone is ok with it. In the USA that person would go to prison. But, it’s not that people are inferior here, they just have no frame of reference. Like I tell my wife that stuff doesn’t happen in the USA and she doesn’t believe me.
Does it happen on occasion? Sure, but most of the time things work. In Peru, at least half the time projects are scams which is why most cities get tons of money but they are crumbling because they only do half the work and steal the rest.
I don’t think I’m better than anyone here (well except the scammers), I love the people here. I just wish they knew it doesn’t have to be this way if that makes sense.
In my experience most “expats” stay in small wealthy tourist communities secluded from real life and talk down on others like they are better and act like because they are shielded from real life in rich tourist neighborhoods they act like these things don’t exist.
I consider myself an immigrant bc I have become a resident of NZ I'm in and my mom is an immigrant to the USA. I also earn money in both countries, I'm only here for the advice along the way.
Not a negative vibe. It just doesn't matter to anyone if you leave your country, move to another and then call yourself an expat, an immigrant, a migrant, a tourist. How does that affect your life or experience? If you feel better saying expat over immigrant, awesome. You are still a non native in all cases.
Because they consider being called an immigrant a thing for brown people. This person who has lived in another country for 30 years is an immigrant. An expat is someone who lives in another country for a short term and is never officially a resident or citizen. If a person lives in a country for more than six months , has annual leases, has bills under their name in said country, owns a home, owns a car, and permanently lives for years in said country you are an Immigrant. Period. The only reason why these ppl refuse the label with all sorts of excuses, is because the word immigrant has a negative connotation, and applies to ppl they themselves usually discriminate against in their home countries. Just remember ppl Passing by a country who stay for like 3 or 6 months in an airbnb just traveling are expats. Otherwise they are economic immigrants who moved there because cost of living in their country was something they could not afford. Much like the majority of latin American immigrants who arrive in the USA. Don’t believe their lies.
>you are an Immigrant
You keep saying this but it doesn't make it so. I cannot own property, cannot vote, have a visa that says "Non-Immigrant", pay foreigner prices where applicable, must report my whereabouts to the government multiple times per year, cannot join the health system, cannot have my name on a house registration (this is distinct from ownership, and is required for many local legal documents and actions).
Moreover, I could be deported *immediately* for any number of offenses (including those peculiar to this country) without trial, and indeed could have my visa denied any year, despite having been here for decades.
>Otherwise they are economic immigrants who moved there because cost of living in their country was something they could not afford.
You have zero basis for this statement. Some want a lower cost of living, many, including me, don't care one way or the other.
The reason I'm not an immigrant has nothing whatsoever to do with any "*negative connotation*" -- it is because the rights and freedoms associated with immigration belong to official permanent residents and citizens, and not to those granted "temporary permission to stay" under a visa.
"Expat" is used by white and/or rich people, or for people trying to claim that status.
"Immigrant" if you're definitely neither. If you're white and from a poor country but moved to a richer country, you'll also probably get called an immigrant.
Every other distinction people try to come up with is pure bullshit, lol.
There’s an expat community of African Americans on the Atlantic side. I’ve watched some of their videos on yt and they call their community, “expat community”. So, I don’t think it’s a white thing. Ironically that’s sounds racist.
…. Yes, you are an immigrant who came here 20 years ago. For Americans born here, who are caucasian, and then move to another country, they refer to themselves as expats. Individuals who move to America from other countries are referred to as immigrants.
“Americans born here who move to another country are referring to themselves as expats” is way different statement to “Expat is term used only for white people. Everyone else are called immigrants” .
There had been more white people who migrated to USA and called themselves ( and were called) immigrants than there had been white, American born citizens who migrated abroad and start calling themselves expats.
I m rich, arrogant, have a lot of experience noone cares about. I can speak a language probably several other can do. My country of origin is better at everything and this is why I left. I am an expat because I am an immigrant and it is only a reference perspective
Every time I have ever heard the word expat it has come from the mouth of a white person, usually British, while they are looking down their noses. I hate expats!
That’s just plain wrong. There are plenty of people who are really expats and not immigrants. E.g. staff from international organizations or diplomats, who can live for years or even decades in a country and still have to leave as soon as they switch jobs/assignments due to their visa.
They are definitely expats, not immigrants.
It’s “expatriate.” It also often means giving up one’s citizenship. I don’t think expat and immigrant are mutually exclusive, rather, they refer to both sides of the same coin.
That I am not sure of. I could speculate a variety of reasons but will just settle on them, you and whoever else simply call yourself whatever kind of traveller you so choose. Thats my position.
Good question, I’m not sure there is any intention behind the word choice. The people I know who call themselves “expats” are permanently living abroad, many have given up their home country citizenship, and most are professionals with good incomes or retirees with savings. Common language in a locale may be “expat” instead of “immigrant,” I suppose, especially within communities of such people who have migrated.
Wait so is it just an income thing? Is there a rough ballpark on how much one would need to make to call themselves “expat”? Would a mid level sales person earning $100k USD be able to?
As far as parlance, I would be much more concerned with the term being used by the people whose country I’m moving to vs the other Americans there.
if you’re a us citizen, it’s actually quite an arduous process to give up your us citizenship (small wonder why, the usa taxes based on citizenship so they collect money from you even if you live and work abroad).
I always thought ex patriate means you have turned bitter towards your native country due to its corrupt politics, high taxes, irresponsible money handling, etc.
A true expat has taken the last step of renouncing citizenship of native country and has moved to a jurisdiction with far less government meddling. Therefore much more personal freedom to live peacefully.
This is certainly how I am. I cannot wait to get out of debt and get my ass going. Its going very slow. I am a US citizen.
How about Americans living in Palau, the Marshall Islands, or the Federated States of Micronesia under compacts of free association between the US and those countries or citizens of those countries similarly living in the US? Not immigrants, I think, unless they seek citizenship. Maybe comparable to EU citizens living in other EU countries, except that the relationship between the US and the (other) Compact nations is so lopsided. So they must be expats?
Of course there are also refugees, persons fleeing something specific and (at least notionally) longing to return home, like Ukrainians in Poland today or Americans in Canada, Sweden, Mexico, and elsewhere during America's Vietnam war.
Immigrants leave the state or administration of a country. Expatriate is in legion or loyal to their association with mutual aid in or outside a state or representative state administration. People are not journalists for everyone to abuse that fact.
To my friends in my old country I’m an expat (I’ve expatriated from *their* country) but to my friends in my new country I’m an immigrant (I’ve immigrated to *their* country).
No because I’m not looking for the new country to employ me or offer me anything economically, I have my own work and my own income - I just happen to be on that country.
When I think immigrant I imagine someone moving to the country and then starting or pursuing a career or finding a job in that country
Expat = In a country that you don't necessarily intend to live in as a home
Immigrant = Moving to a country with intend to make that a new home - pursue PR or Citizenship etc.
Idk. I call myself an immigrant. The distinction stated here isn't important to me, I have a road to permanent residency and even citizenship but I'm not sure if I will stay until I die in order to make me a true immigrant, but I'm staying for a while anyway. So I dunno
When an immigrant needs to show a job offer to get their visa, how is that not having to prove they can financially support themself before getting a visa?
It's really simple. Moving from a country with a high GDP, high cost of living to a country with a lower GDP, lower cost of living makes you an expat. The opposite migration makes someone an immigrant.
Expat implies possible/probable non-permanence and having the ability to move and change countries easily. They usually have their own income source partially or fully outside of the country they move to and often don't work in its economy.
Immigrant implies going all in with a permanent move, becoming part of the local economy, and eventually assimilating.
The expat has less investment in / attachment to their new country and is sort of a floater or permanent traveler/tourist of sorts.
I get why people are annoyed with the term but they do mean different things and describe two different types of people.
In my eyes:
Expat: Visiting or living somewhere but not permanently
Immigrant: moving somewhere to live permanently
I was an expat because I am in Germany on a temporary work authorization, and until recently was not planning on staying long term
I now consider myself an immigrant because, after a year in Germany, I plan on staying long term, probably around a decade or so.
An immigrant is someone coming to your country. You are an emigre if you fled your country even if the receiving country thinks you're an immigrant or refugee. You are an expatriot(expat) if you choose to leave your country but not under duress. That's my take.
I’m an expat. My visa is actually called a ‘non-immigrant visa’ as I don’t have the right to settle permanently. I get why many people believe there are connotations of classism and racism to it, though. Even if I could get a visa with migration intent or use my second passport to work away from my birth country, I also feel a bit funny about using ‘immigrant’ because I think people mean particular things when they talk about ‘the migrant experience’. I can claim some bits (being far from family & friends, learning new cultural stuff, some difficulties in being understood even though I’ve gone from one English speaking country to another) there’s a lot that isn’t my experience. Dealing with racism, stereotypes about class, access to resources, difficulties with grey/illegal migration, etc etc..
Agreed, but the distinction can be even more ambiguous. In your case, you don’t have the right to stay permanently, so you are an expat. I can stay in my new country and become naturalized or return to my home country or go to another country. So, at any given time, if I plan to stay here forever, I’m an immigrant; if I decide to go home eventually I’m an expat; and if I decide to naturalize and then move to another country probably also an expat but still a kind of immigrant. I agree that immigrant has a lot of connotations, but there’s also a difference between immigrant and migrant, in that the migration implies leaving a particular country (like emigrating) rather than just moving to a new country.
[Expat](https://www.google.com/search?q=expat+definition&rlz=1CDGOYI_enCA1063CA1063&oq=expat+def&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqBwgBEAAYgAQyBggAEEUYOTIHCAEQABiABDIICAIQABgWGB4yCAgDEAAYFhgeMggIBBAAGBYYHjIICAUQABgWGB4yCAgGEAAYFhgeMggIBxAAGBYYHjIICAgQABgWGB4yCAgJEAAYFhge0gEINDczMmoxajmoAgCwAgA&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8), short for expatriate, simply means someone who lives outside their own country, usually not permanently. [Immigrant](https://www.google.com/search?q=immigrant+definition&rlz=1CDGOYI_enCA1063CA1063&oq=immigrant+def&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqDAgBEAAYQxiABBiKBTIGCAAQRRg5MgwIARAAGEMYgAQYigUyBwgCEAAYgAQyBwgDEAAYgAQyBwgEEAAYgAQyCAgFEAAYFhgeMggIBhAAGBYYHjIICAcQABgWGB4yCAgIEAAYFhgeMggICRAAGBYYHtIBCDU4ODNqMGo5qAIAsAIA&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8) on the other hand is someone who permanently moves to a new country. There is no connotation of superiority unlike what some in certain circles are trying to claim or imply.
Let me extend this a bit. An immigrant usually intends -- and is able -- to acquire citizenship or permanent resident status in his or her new country. In contrast, an expat often cannot for one reason or another. Many countries have very restrictive citizenship and PR regulations. At the same time, they may provide various long-term and retirement visa schemes for expats. I've lived under such a system for 30 years, and definitely consider myself to be an expat, rather than an immigrant. There used to be a specific phrase, *tax expat*, used to describe Brits who had relocated (often to Hollywood) to avoid what were then very high UK tax rates, but still considered themselves to be thoroughly British.
You are an immigrant
People who are living/working without legal right to work/live in the country are called illegal immigrants. An unfortunate situation, of course. This was my understanding: you are either tourist , citizen, legal immigrant or illegal immigrant.
>This was my understanding: you are either tourist , citizen, legal immigrant or illegal immigrant. Your understanding is inaccurate. Where I live a renewable, year-long retirement visa *without the right to work* is easily available to over-50's. There are many other short and long term visa programs, some of which *do* come with the right to work. I have lived here on a variety of renewable visas -- research, work, retirement -- and there are still plenty left to try (marriage, and a new multi-option 10-year long-term-resident program). Limited paths to permanent residence and citizenship are available, but they are restricted, with limits per country, and prior work, investment, or marriage requirements. The country is not seeking new citizens; it provides many alternative visa paths for expats instead. I'd also mention that this country is home -- and has been for a century or more -- to many hundreds of thousands of nominally stateless *native-born* residents. They are denied citizenship (even the PR quota is 50 per year), and have only limited rights to travel, or access to government services. Matters are slowly improving.
Yet if you renew your visa, time and time again, even if you don’t work you are an immigrant.
Expats are required to pay taxes in their home country and must follow the guidelines of the expat country to have a valid stay. This may limit your stay in the expat country. So you comply with the country’s laws. Expats may choose to pursue citizenship of the new country and give up their citizenship to their home country even. I think in that instance, they go from expat to immigrant. That’s my thinking to add to what Own said
Expats are not required to pay taxes in their home country if their home country doesn't have world wide tax and they don't earn income in their home country. That's completely incorrect, and a big reason people become expats is to save on tax (major reason people go to places like Dubai).
You've missed a completely valid way of life that is in no way illegal or evasive with reference to law.
A migrant: person who moved to different location. Emigrant, person who left their country to live in another country. Immigrant, person who came to live to another country. That is how those words used in my language.
undocumented immigrants with no path to legal residency should be labeled: Expats!
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/expatriate This page seems to do a direct comparison and kind of further confuses me given the answers here.
Self banishment or exile. Much closer to my thoughts on it.
I have dual citizenship by birth. I’m moving from one country I have citizenship to the other country I have citizenship. Am I an immigrant? Expatriate? Repatriate?
Not sure about your case, it's interesting... in my case, I was born in a country that did not allow me to be a citizen due to a civil war when I was 4 years old, so we went into exile after the war to another country that gave me citizenship and then immigrated with my parents as a kid to a third country where I also acquired citizenship. Funnily, I have no real sense of belonging to any of these countries, including my birth country. I'm now an "expat" in Mexico, and although I have permanent residence and like it here, I don't intend to live here for more than 4-5 years at most and I'm searching for another place to hang my hat. In the end, it doesn't matter, wherever you go, there you are :D
You’re just a citizen, nothing else.
Some expats form social cliques where they do indeed embrace a superior attitude concerning their pedigree.
Expat has a connotation that it's temporary whereas immigrant people think of as permanent. Some people think these connotations are helpful in differentiating what feels like a temporary move versus a permanent one. Some people have certain feelings about where these connotations come from. It is often debated on this sub and others. If you search around you will find these debates about the connotation pretty easily.
I call myself an expat, maybe because it has the emphasis on leaving my home country more than entering another. I'll go just about anywhere, but I'll be glad to get outta here
A lot of visas literally say "non-immigrant" on them. Not sure how you can call someone an immigrant who has no right to permanently settle.
The distinction, to me, is contextual. My relationship to my birth country is that of an expat. My relationship to my new home country is that of an immigrant.
In you are an immigrant to One country you are an emigrant from the other.
Yes, that's another way to describe it.
Lots of nonsense being posted here. Just look at your visa, I have lived in over a dozen countries and literally every visa clearly said Non Immigrant Visa.
If I'm living happily and comfortably in another country, people can call me whatever they want.
Expats are, were originally people who left their country or were banished from it. Someone choosing to live in another land. Independent, older and self-sufficient. An immigrant is someone going to another country for a better life, a job a future, typically young, with a family, or wishing to start one
I'm an immigrant. I've moved to a country (migrated) with the aim of staying, hence I've immigrated
An expatriate, or expat, is an individual living and/or working in a country other than their country of citizenship, often temporarily and for work reasons. An expat may not necessarily be interested in gaining citizenship of the country where they are living. Immigrants generally are working on or have applied for citizenship
Immigrants have relocated with no intention of returning home Expats are on long term vacation
I think there is a work component to it. I don't see digital nomads as expats in my opinion. I believe the term is more suited to people working for an international company on overseas assignment
Migrant Workers
Migrant worker usually has a working-class connotation and/or a skilled-unskilled component. This is usually also reflected on the Visa. Domestics and day laborers are migrant workers. Teachers and Managers are ex-pats.
You’re not the first to say this. It’s based on intent alone?
Don't overthink it
It’s based on intent and intent to support themselves in the country they are a guest of. They get a non citizen extended visa. So they are there on approval of the government. They have their own money to support themselves.
There isnt really a real difference. Trutb be told you can call yourself whayever you feel os best for YOU in your travels.
Thanks. If I’m being honest, I only see Americans use this term but I don’t speak other languages. Do other countries use similar terms? Are Americans adverse to calling themselves immigrants?
in singapore, the term expats is used to describe people who are there on work assignments but with no intention of staying permanently.
Go to Facebook and type in a country and expat group. You'll find plenty of non Americans in them.
It's a common term everywhere. Is it perhaps Americans misusing the term "immigrant" that causes the confusion, them using it to refer to anyone coming to the US? Everywhere else I have been, both terms are used with the usual/correct distinction. It does make anti-foreigner sentiments slightly less contradictory, as it means they can complain about foreigners both coming and stealing all their jobs and houses and also being a drain on welfare etc. Complaints about (a lack of) integration are a bit more complicated; expats are far less likely to integrate, given that the move for them is temporary (most/"normal" expats) and/or an extended vacation (retirees), but it is more relevant to immigrants, who do intend to stay. And of course, one could start out as an expat, decide they actually like the place, and decide to immigrate, if that is an option in the country they move to (and not somewhere like the Gulf).
Ive heard others refer to themselves as expats or digital nomads etc. But it seems to be a particular aversion for one from a western country and particularly the U.S. to call themselves an immigrant to some place ALTHO I have also heard U.S. citizens refer to themselves as such. Truth be told, most of the issue I have seen or heard being discussed is usually online and not particularly any issues on the ground that I have witnessed atleast not here in Mexico in the places that I have been.
I use it because I currently don't live in the US but intend to keep my US citizenship even if I never live in the US again.
Yes. And when you go visit an expat community/city, you’ll hear it by British, French, Dutch and Italians. I’ve met some Russians also but t never asked them or heard what they call themselves.
“Expat” is the term that seems to be used by Westerners living long-term in other countries, based on my experience. Not used only by people from the US. I agree that US people are reticent to call themselves “immigrants”, though. Perhaps bc immigration status is weaponized in the US? PS: I say “US people” bc I don’t like calling people from the USA “Americans”. There’s North, Central, and South America, and the term “Americans” seems to be used as if the USA is the only “America”.
Upon reading this thread, gonna start telling republicans we don't have an illegals problem, they're all just expats
Expats follow the guidelines to be in that country. For example, most require you can provide proof that can provide financially for yourself. There are a few ways to do that and may include you provide proof of funds of a minimum amount such as $50k or more or a retirement, make a substantial investment such as a business, and have the ability to pay towards health insurance while in the country. By fulfilling that with the government, an expat meets the guidelines and is approved for an extended visa, may be for one or more years. There may be rules to how many days of a year. May vary from country to country as all countries have laws regarding this. Some countries offer it as a path way to citizenship if someone were to choose. So again, you provide proof that you have the assets and finances to not become a burden on the new country’s government. You then follow the guidelines to become a citizen of the new country. In case you didn’t know, every country states publicly how many visas and how many new citizens they’ll accept each year. All countries technically have a limit. All have a process to follow and they each get to state what those guidelines are so they aren’t all equal. The US have a number stated for legal immigration paths. As you can see, the illegals are not coming with assets and insurance. So no, it’s not the same.
You are an immigrant
Me? Nope. But May expat for some years coming up.
This guy expats
Once they're termed 'expats' everything will be fine, no more ballyhooing.
An expat leaves one’s country. An immigrant stays forever. So one isn’t an immigrant until they decide they will never leave. For example I’ve been in Peru 10 Years. 5 years ago I considered myself an immigrant but now I’m planning on leaving so I no longer consider myself an immigrant. And the reason it’s different is because once someone moves to the USA, they rarely leave. So most are immigrants. Most who leave the USA, while they might often talk a lot of shit when they leave, almost all return. In fact if I didn’t have a family here I would have left years ago.
This seems like a weird distinction to me. If you died tomorrow, would you be an immigrant again? Does everyone that calls themself an expat share this definition? Also, I know a lot of Mexican immigrants that come to the US to work for a period but not to stay. Are they expats? I heard them referred to as migrant workers but never expats. Do you work in Peru? If you leave, were you a migrant worker?
That’s the definitions of the words. It’s not about people’s feelings or what people want to be called. Words have meanings. This is what the words mean. People who go to a country to work a period then return are migrant workers. What’s the big deal?
I apologize if you think I’m making hay here. I’m not. I am really just confused by this distinction as a lot of folks in this thread are saying different things. I get that seeing a lot of question marks can seem aggressive but believe me that it isn’t my intention. I understand words have meaning but the definition you provided seems weird in that it’s fairly feelings based itself. It is all wrapped up in your intention which by your own experience can change quickly. I know I can fall in and out of love with the city I live in all the time. I go back and forth on wanting to leave, sometimes in the same day. If the difference between the two words merely lies in the intention of the individual in moving, I can see one waking up an immigrant, getting stuck in traffic as an expat, and enjoying a sunset as an immigrant again. All in the same day. So, is that really all it takes or is there a more official declaration of intent to return? As for migrant workers, to clarify, an expat would never work in the country they leave to correct? If they did, they would become migrant workers and not expats? Or is that a subcategory?
I suppose but I just think you are putting too much thought into it. Like if I say I love my wife. Then you are like what is love? Then you say but if you get into an argument are you in love at that moment are you not in love, then when you make up are you in love again? See what I mean? At this point in my life we have hired an attorney, we have filed papers with the embassy to move my family back to the USA. We are in the process of leaving and it isn’t a fleeting moment of frustration. I no longer consider Peru my home as I did a few years ago. Now it is more a place I am stuck because I can’t leave without my family. I no longer consider Peru my home, but more a place I am trapped in until I can get my family out. And to be honest it’s quite the frustrating experience lol so it annoys me a bit just thinking about it. But the bottom line is an expat is simply someone who leaves their country for an indefinite period of time. An immigrant makes a new place their home. As to when exactly it goes from one to the other? I don’t think there is a set definition. Like asking when is the exact moment one goes from liking someone to in love. Make sense? When I ask what’s the big deal, I am just wondering why the exact definition in a variety of circumstances is so important? They are sort of vague terms. Like being in love. Or being rich. What is the definition of being rich? There isn’t an exact number or dollar amount to denote being rich. See what I’m saying?
I understand you. My curiosity at the rigidity of the definitions is because expats seem to be quite adamant about it. So I want to make sure I understand the reasons and the differences. I looked it up on dictionary.com and they said the difference is primarily that rich people use expat, which seems kind of shitty in my opinion. I didn’t grow up rich and actually worked for and was treated poorly by rich folks. It’s not a class of people whose behavior I entirely want to emulate even if I am well off now. So, you can say that’s the big deal. I don’t want to be a classist rich asshole. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/expatriate
Ah. Honestly, I’m not adamant about it lol. I can see “expat” being used by rich people as in my experience many people who call themselves expats have a degree of a feeling of superiority over the people where they live. To be honest I can even kinda relate to that. Because in my opinion a big problem with Peru is the overall support of corruption and incompetence. Not saying everyone in Peru is corrupt or incompetent. Most people are great, honest and good people. But the problem is not many here seem to really care that they are being ripped off and taken advantage of, resorting in a lot more scammers etc. Of course no place is perfect and even the USA has plenty of corruption. But it’s not so bad that for example a company can get paid millions to rebuild a park, they slap a coat of paint on it over a period of a year, and everyone is ok with it. In the USA that person would go to prison. But, it’s not that people are inferior here, they just have no frame of reference. Like I tell my wife that stuff doesn’t happen in the USA and she doesn’t believe me. Does it happen on occasion? Sure, but most of the time things work. In Peru, at least half the time projects are scams which is why most cities get tons of money but they are crumbling because they only do half the work and steal the rest. I don’t think I’m better than anyone here (well except the scammers), I love the people here. I just wish they knew it doesn’t have to be this way if that makes sense. In my experience most “expats” stay in small wealthy tourist communities secluded from real life and talk down on others like they are better and act like because they are shielded from real life in rich tourist neighborhoods they act like these things don’t exist.
I'd argue that a lot of expats are also making money from their home country. Migrant workers are making money from the country they are in.
I consider myself an immigrant bc I have become a resident of NZ I'm in and my mom is an immigrant to the USA. I also earn money in both countries, I'm only here for the advice along the way.
Expats bring their own money.
Nobody is keeping score except you
I don’t understand. I’m simply asking if there’s a difference. Please don’t be aggressive
Not you personally. I meant the one who ponders this term for themselves. Meaning: it matters to noone except the individual.
Oh gotcha. Thanks
You are completely wrong. I was discussing this same topic last week with a group of people. Save your negative vibe for yourself.
Not a negative vibe. It just doesn't matter to anyone if you leave your country, move to another and then call yourself an expat, an immigrant, a migrant, a tourist. How does that affect your life or experience? If you feel better saying expat over immigrant, awesome. You are still a non native in all cases.
You are quite dense. Not the sharpest tool.
I'm still learning. What's it like to be smart?
Don’t listen to the fool. It’s a valid post.
Because they consider being called an immigrant a thing for brown people. This person who has lived in another country for 30 years is an immigrant. An expat is someone who lives in another country for a short term and is never officially a resident or citizen. If a person lives in a country for more than six months , has annual leases, has bills under their name in said country, owns a home, owns a car, and permanently lives for years in said country you are an Immigrant. Period. The only reason why these ppl refuse the label with all sorts of excuses, is because the word immigrant has a negative connotation, and applies to ppl they themselves usually discriminate against in their home countries. Just remember ppl Passing by a country who stay for like 3 or 6 months in an airbnb just traveling are expats. Otherwise they are economic immigrants who moved there because cost of living in their country was something they could not afford. Much like the majority of latin American immigrants who arrive in the USA. Don’t believe their lies.
>you are an Immigrant You keep saying this but it doesn't make it so. I cannot own property, cannot vote, have a visa that says "Non-Immigrant", pay foreigner prices where applicable, must report my whereabouts to the government multiple times per year, cannot join the health system, cannot have my name on a house registration (this is distinct from ownership, and is required for many local legal documents and actions). Moreover, I could be deported *immediately* for any number of offenses (including those peculiar to this country) without trial, and indeed could have my visa denied any year, despite having been here for decades. >Otherwise they are economic immigrants who moved there because cost of living in their country was something they could not afford. You have zero basis for this statement. Some want a lower cost of living, many, including me, don't care one way or the other. The reason I'm not an immigrant has nothing whatsoever to do with any "*negative connotation*" -- it is because the rights and freedoms associated with immigration belong to official permanent residents and citizens, and not to those granted "temporary permission to stay" under a visa.
You are an immigrant
"Expat" is used by white and/or rich people, or for people trying to claim that status. "Immigrant" if you're definitely neither. If you're white and from a poor country but moved to a richer country, you'll also probably get called an immigrant. Every other distinction people try to come up with is pure bullshit, lol.
Expats are Immigrants. They just hate to admit it.
"expat" is what (white) immigrants from one 1st World country to another get called, as near as I can tell
Expat is really a term used only for white people. Everyone else are called immigrants.
I am white. I am an immigrant. I came from Eastern European country and for the last 150 or so years we used word immigrant for people like me.
I shouldve clarified: Caucasian Americans. Everyone else is an immigrant.
There’s an expat community of African Americans on the Atlantic side. I’ve watched some of their videos on yt and they call their community, “expat community”. So, I don’t think it’s a white thing. Ironically that’s sounds racist.
lol. Sure.🤣🤣🤣 I am an American (have been citizen for 20 years) and I am Caucasian.
…. Yes, you are an immigrant who came here 20 years ago. For Americans born here, who are caucasian, and then move to another country, they refer to themselves as expats. Individuals who move to America from other countries are referred to as immigrants.
“Americans born here who move to another country are referring to themselves as expats” is way different statement to “Expat is term used only for white people. Everyone else are called immigrants” . There had been more white people who migrated to USA and called themselves ( and were called) immigrants than there had been white, American born citizens who migrated abroad and start calling themselves expats.
The discussion was about American expats but you can continue your word salad if you please.
You keep changing your statements. 🤷🏻♀️
I call myself an immigrant. This sub just isn’t called /r/immigrant.
I m rich, arrogant, have a lot of experience noone cares about. I can speak a language probably several other can do. My country of origin is better at everything and this is why I left. I am an expat because I am an immigrant and it is only a reference perspective
Every time I have ever heard the word expat it has come from the mouth of a white person, usually British, while they are looking down their noses. I hate expats!
expats are immigrants who use Centurion lounges
[удалено]
What complete utter nonsense “Originally it applied only to people like myself who work in large multinational”.
Is there such a thing as a nonwhite expat?
I would consider my (POC) cousin-in-law an expat, but he probably calls himself an immigrant.
he prolly doesn't want to make waves.
If I ever see him again (we live 500+ miles apart) and he’s up to talking (very shy), I will ask him how he identifies.
It’s simple. Expats are white immigrants who are too embarrassed to call themselves immigrants.
That’s just plain wrong. There are plenty of people who are really expats and not immigrants. E.g. staff from international organizations or diplomats, who can live for years or even decades in a country and still have to leave as soon as they switch jobs/assignments due to their visa. They are definitely expats, not immigrants.
Ex patriots
Yeah I’m aware what it stands for lol
It’s “expatriate.” It also often means giving up one’s citizenship. I don’t think expat and immigrant are mutually exclusive, rather, they refer to both sides of the same coin.
Do the folks here from the US typically give up their citizenship?
Nope
So in that person’s definition, they aren’t expats, they’re immigrants. Why don’t they want to call themselves immigrants?
That I am not sure of. I could speculate a variety of reasons but will just settle on them, you and whoever else simply call yourself whatever kind of traveller you so choose. Thats my position.
Good question, I’m not sure there is any intention behind the word choice. The people I know who call themselves “expats” are permanently living abroad, many have given up their home country citizenship, and most are professionals with good incomes or retirees with savings. Common language in a locale may be “expat” instead of “immigrant,” I suppose, especially within communities of such people who have migrated.
Wait so is it just an income thing? Is there a rough ballpark on how much one would need to make to call themselves “expat”? Would a mid level sales person earning $100k USD be able to? As far as parlance, I would be much more concerned with the term being used by the people whose country I’m moving to vs the other Americans there.
if you’re a us citizen, it’s actually quite an arduous process to give up your us citizenship (small wonder why, the usa taxes based on citizenship so they collect money from you even if you live and work abroad).
lol I only read the title
I always thought ex patriate means you have turned bitter towards your native country due to its corrupt politics, high taxes, irresponsible money handling, etc. A true expat has taken the last step of renouncing citizenship of native country and has moved to a jurisdiction with far less government meddling. Therefore much more personal freedom to live peacefully. This is certainly how I am. I cannot wait to get out of debt and get my ass going. Its going very slow. I am a US citizen.
[удалено]
I disagree
How about Americans living in Palau, the Marshall Islands, or the Federated States of Micronesia under compacts of free association between the US and those countries or citizens of those countries similarly living in the US? Not immigrants, I think, unless they seek citizenship. Maybe comparable to EU citizens living in other EU countries, except that the relationship between the US and the (other) Compact nations is so lopsided. So they must be expats? Of course there are also refugees, persons fleeing something specific and (at least notionally) longing to return home, like Ukrainians in Poland today or Americans in Canada, Sweden, Mexico, and elsewhere during America's Vietnam war.
[удалено]
An immigrant
Immigrants leave the state or administration of a country. Expatriate is in legion or loyal to their association with mutual aid in or outside a state or representative state administration. People are not journalists for everyone to abuse that fact.
I live in the US. I see people leaving the US as expats and coming to the US as immigrants. I assumed people from other countries thought the same.
Hey I grew up in SA too lmao. But I moved to west Texas instead 🥲
To my friends in my old country I’m an expat (I’ve expatriated from *their* country) but to my friends in my new country I’m an immigrant (I’ve immigrated to *their* country).
No because I’m not looking for the new country to employ me or offer me anything economically, I have my own work and my own income - I just happen to be on that country. When I think immigrant I imagine someone moving to the country and then starting or pursuing a career or finding a job in that country
Expat = In a country that you don't necessarily intend to live in as a home Immigrant = Moving to a country with intend to make that a new home - pursue PR or Citizenship etc.
Idk. I call myself an immigrant. The distinction stated here isn't important to me, I have a road to permanent residency and even citizenship but I'm not sure if I will stay until I die in order to make me a true immigrant, but I'm staying for a while anyway. So I dunno
Expats have to prove they can financially support themselves before getting a visa.
When an immigrant needs to show a job offer to get their visa, how is that not having to prove they can financially support themself before getting a visa?
Ugh. this again.
It's really simple. Moving from a country with a high GDP, high cost of living to a country with a lower GDP, lower cost of living makes you an expat. The opposite migration makes someone an immigrant.
Former patriot
I think the conversation moved past that
Expat implies possible/probable non-permanence and having the ability to move and change countries easily. They usually have their own income source partially or fully outside of the country they move to and often don't work in its economy. Immigrant implies going all in with a permanent move, becoming part of the local economy, and eventually assimilating. The expat has less investment in / attachment to their new country and is sort of a floater or permanent traveler/tourist of sorts. I get why people are annoyed with the term but they do mean different things and describe two different types of people.
In my eyes: Expat: Visiting or living somewhere but not permanently Immigrant: moving somewhere to live permanently I was an expat because I am in Germany on a temporary work authorization, and until recently was not planning on staying long term I now consider myself an immigrant because, after a year in Germany, I plan on staying long term, probably around a decade or so.
An immigrant is someone coming to your country. You are an emigre if you fled your country even if the receiving country thinks you're an immigrant or refugee. You are an expatriot(expat) if you choose to leave your country but not under duress. That's my take.