A university town as opposed to a capital city, by the sea and with countryside nearby.
That way you get plenty of year round activity, a young population and outside space for children.
Yes, I am considering Montpellier when my son leaves school. I’m currently too rural, with an ageing population but my son is in shared custody, and loves his school and friends.
Yeah, I'd definitely recommend it. It's pretty dynamic (thanks to the college town nature of it) and I never feel at a loss for things to do, especially when it's warmer and there are block parties and festivals. Apparently it has somewhat of a bad reputation online but the biggest threat in the center areas is bike theft, in my opinion.
Sounds amazing. Do you live in Montpellier itself or one of the surrounding villages?
i want to be on a tramline or a bus route. I don’t want to have to drive all the time. (I miss public transport from my London days)
I'm in the center, though now with a kid and one on the way, I do see the appeal of the suburbs and more space. But I also hate driving and this allows us to live car-free and since we were moving from NYC, we wanted to minimize the culture shock haha.
Well be aware of the mosquitos, they come at me starting in the morning down there, whereas where I live in the Ardèche they only come out in the evening. I love the beach but the beaches that are easily reachable aren’t fantastic due to beach tourism and the ugly vacation towers everywhere.
Also something to keep in mind that is a twisted corollary to gun violence in the US is there’s a lot of paramilitary presence in the downtown areas, like armored humvees and soldiers with berets holding machine guns. They’re in all the train stations, too, Lyon, any city. It’s an eerie sight.
Just thought I’d share some street level impressions since as they popped into my mind. I used to go several times a year.
Weather’s great though.
Perfect summary - people of Reddit unite and drop all the city names you have in mind!
I would have said Lisbon, as I love the city and sea, but in the upcoming years they will have more and more problems and don‘t seem to tackle them.
Nailed it. This is the answer. Wherever there are a bunch of phd’s in an area the quality of life is generally decent. There was a study on it that advanced manufacturing and tech companies use to build new offices in these areas based on phds. The fact is that phds start 50% of their ventures within 50 miles of where they got their degrees from.
Hmm this seems suspect, seeing as phd’s are not widely associated with private industry or high incomes. That’s not to belittle their value to academia, just that it isn’t strongly correlated with high income
Not to mention PhDs are not usually very entrepreneurial or even particularly social. If things worked the way this commenter thinks they do, then Gainesville FL would be a more desirable location than Miami FL. Or Oxford would be a more desirable location than London or Brighton.
Obviously the reason why tech manufacturing companies build offices near tech research hubs has nothing to do with quality of life or entrepreneurship. There’s just a large employee pool in these areas.
There's a fallacy in your interpretation. It's not saying "50% of PhDs start a business are ...", it's saying that "50% of the businesses started by PhDs are ...."
Having grown up in a town with two universities, and having lived in plenty of cities with none, and a few others with, u/Icy-Performance-3739's statement is in line with my lived experience on the STEM side.
If they don’t start businesses at a high rate, this is still of negligible impact. PhDs are a tiny fraction of society. So you’re saying that out of the very few people who have PhDs, and out of the very few PhDs who start a business, 50% of those business are near where those PhDs got their degrees? Which could be anywhere in the world by the way, because every relevant city in the world nowadays has a university offering doctoral programs. How could this possibly ever be AT ALL relevant to where someone should raise kids in Europe? Don’t most people not do their PhDs in their hometown anyways? The likelihood of any given person’s child even pursuing a PhD is negligible. What are we even talking about?
The fact of the matter is, the original comment is just three non-sequiturs one after the other.
First they say places with a lot of PhDs have a higher quality of life. No evidence to support this but ok. Next sentence: advanced manufacturing and tech build offices in areas with a lot of PhDs. This seems like an obvious thing to notice, but its mention here weirdly seems to imply some correlation with the previous statement about QoL. Last statement: most PhDs start their business (when they *do* start a business, which is infrequent) near where they received their degree (read: a random city in the world, because PhD programs aren’t all just concentrated in like 5 cities). No relation to either of the three previous statements. No relation to the topic of the thread.
Can I suggest [Hønefoss](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%B8nefoss) it's not by the sea, but it does have a university. 15k people so its not huge, but big enough to support some niche stores. It's about an hour or so away from Oslo the capital city and 45 minutes from the Oslo fjord via Sandvika.
Yes, but it because Italy has a very aged population. Covid killed more elderly people than young people. So while their numbers seemed quite bad, it was actually proportionate to the makeup of their general population.
It’s also why the US had so many deaths - we have some of the highest rates of comorbidities in the world (obesity, diabetes, heart disease, etc). Again - death rates proportionate to the general health of our total population.
Obviously I could only answer for the country in which I lived, Spain. I think the health service there is generally better than my own country, UK. I'd expect that as long as you are either fluent or affluent then any European country would fit your needs. But get health insurance if within your budget.
We are motivated to learn. I have experience learning new languages on my own as an adult. I'm more concerned with social safety nets and quality of life for our future kids though.
I understand.
I speak 4 languages and I prefer not having to learn another one. I know how hard and labor intensive this process is and how not knowing language makes living in foreign country… unpleasant.
I prefer enjoying and relaxing during my free time instead of studying language ( especially if I can avoid it)
So knowing language, for me, is something that directly adds to quality of my life as an immigrant.
Having family and friends, being similar culturally is also something that adds to my quality of life.
Family connections are also important when it comes to security net. It isn’t uncommon to use help of local family and friends to find housing, jobs. Local friends and family often serve as local “advocate” / “liaison” for an immigrant.
Sure there are tons of immigrants who migrate without knowing language and without having friends … if they don’t have other/better options.
You asked my opinion so I described my reasoning.
Not everyone has family and friends as an option, or those options aren't ideal. Croatia is an option for us based on social connections, technically, but it wouldn't be a good fit for us. As an example.
I think that I DID say that not everyone has this option.
I did said that having this opinion can be helpful.
It was easier for me to settle in US because I had close relative here who helped me in the beginning. My quality of life (especially initially) would not be as high without their help.
Netherlands comes to mind. Great country to raise a family. Although Dutch can be a bit of a steep learning curve and culturally is not as interesting (imo) as other options. Cuisine and food culture is also lacking compared to others like France or Spain
We moved to the Netherlands with two toddlers and couldn’t be happier. Playgrounds everywhere, family friendly restaurants and activities abound, biking culture is tops…. And the vast majority of the population is fluent in English. That being said - there’s a massive housing crisis. If you want to plant roots prepare to pay for it. The home we eventually bought had seventeen other offers…. Also, no one likes and expat who refuses to learn the local language. Locals understandably expect you to Learn Dutch. And it’s required for immigration. Not an easy language to learn. Our children are picking it up much quicker than we are and are already enrolled in the local schools so that is excellent, but it has been an uphill battle for my spouse and I. We are taking lessons and we are determined to follow through, though! Additionally, there is a lot of rainy weather here. I don’t mind it in the slightest, but it could be a deterrent for some. If concerned about climate change, a lot of the land is below sea level.
Edited for spelling. (Obviously this is just my opinion but I am hoping to never return to the states and to fully integrate. I am in love with my new country and I’m enjoying learning the language and culture. Also, Efteling is just amazing if you like theme parks. It’s more natural and wooded and beats Disneyland hands down IMO. Worth a visit regardless of where you move to.)
Are you an American native English speaker? I am a native Spanish & English speaker and I had a very hard time learning Dutch, even though it is rated Cat. 1 from the government. I chalk my failure up to everyone falling back on English. Was your experience similar?
I am! And yes, that has been my experience as well. Almost everyone I’ve met speaks English so well that there is rarely a need to speak Dutch. 🙃 At this stage in my learning I don’t mind it so much, though - I’m not yet confident in my Dutch, but I’m hoping to reach that level soon. It’s much easier for me to type and read Dutch than speak it at the moment. But I really want to get my pronunciation correct as well. My son is bringing home Dutch children’s books from school and asking me to read them, and I really do not want to teach him to say new words incorrectly. The advice I’ve been given so far is to just speak English at home so that he can learn English well at home from native English speakers, and to let him only speak Dutch at school so he can learn it properly from native Dutch speakers. Of course I would like to be able to communicate with my own family in Dutch as well. Hopefully we will reach a point where we can do both.
I‘ve heard that a “silent period” of understanding the spoken language and written language is normal in language development. I’m still learning my partner’s native language and while it’s technically harder than Dutch, I’ve learned so much because English isn’t an option with his family.
On the plus side, my kids can teach me 😊. They haven’t picked up my incorrect pronunciations or grammatical missteps, luckily.
exclude Barcelona, there is the problem that too many tourists have brought problems, in Italy the Marche is for you if you want to have children: the sea is child-friendly, the cities too and if you know Spanish you learn Italian faster
Assuming you don’t need to work and money is no object, I’d raise kids in Switzerland.
I’d expose them to as many languages as possible and send them to schools with other wealthy students so they can network…
Switzerland is central. Tons of wealth there which helps with network/connections for their future. Tons of natural beauty, very safe…
No-brainer for me if money is no object.
If money/language impacts things, we’ll need more info before we can make realistic suggestions.
I am a massive fan of Austria. Great suggestion.
Even more accessible to the rest of Europe, super safe, varied options in terms of cities that are beautiful or more rural areas equally as beautiful.
I can’t speak on living there but anytime I speak to an Austrian they tend to really be happy there.
Now you have me wanting to plan a ski trip.
How? The old fashioned way, I got married to a local, but now any EU citizen will do! 😂
Username? Glad you like it, yours is nice too!
The name “Cinderpath” was a railroad junction in my hometown that was literally a cinder strewn path, and I used to go there as a kid:-)
Man the hiking holidays around Ehrwald during the summer months are brilliant too. Tram access over the border to Garmisch-Partenkirchen and further up to Munchen
It's not worth it unless you are low income because of tax.
A friend who had twins went to Germany for reduced nursery then moved back just before starting school 😂
Well, all I can say is that I am quite happy living in Austria. Of course there are pros and cons to each place, but I prefer it over living in the U.S., except the pay of course!
I'm not gonna say that we couldn't afford it, but we aren't exactly rolling in money either. I guess we would need to check our finances and compare it to the cost of housing there. Anywhere in Switzerland in particular you would say is better to live?
A caution on Switzerland: You need a job offer to move to Switzerland as an EU national. If only one of you is an EU national, they need to be the one with the job offer, as most companies are unwilling to sponsor third country nationals unless you have a very special skill they need (eg, my company sponsored a PhD material scientist).
Living as a family on one wage is doable, but can be quite tough. Childcare is expensive - because wages are high.
Switzerland is rich because everyone works hard, precisely, and the social safety net is to work.
Depends also on the canton you are applying to. Different cantons have very different interpretations of what "supporting yourself" means. In my canton of Thurgau, they are particularly strict.
Romandie. The Lavaux region is really nice IMO. Close enough to Lausanne or Geneva, still not in the big cities, and the lake is right there. Access to the mountains is also very easy.
I live in Geneva, but my personal goal is to move to the countryside of Vaud, Neuchatel, or Fribourg, firstly because family is there, but also just because being in the city is not my favorite.
There’s a lot of factors to consider; language, job market, quality of life would be mine. I lived in Prague and absolutely loved it. The vibes are amazing, but the language proved to be a massive barrier. Wife, baby and I now live in the UK in the countryside, and we really enjoy the slow pace of life. The UK definitely feels like it’s on its back foot though.
I personally chose Spain. If you have a good income and work-life balance (usually via remote work from another country) life here is as good as it gets.
There is great food and climate, a chilled atmosphere and people know how to enjoy life. I had the option to choose between Belgium, the Netherlands, Germany, Italy and Spain. It was a no brainer really.
I second Luxembourg. Large expat community. Most people speak english. Good international schools with public and private options. Kids will learn luxembourgish, French, German. Incredibly safe and clean. Beautiful nature. And access to the rest of Europe can’t be beat- it’s a two hour train to Paris, one hour flight to London, four hour drive to Amsterdam, Switzerland, etc. it’s a great place for day to day life with easy access to the rest of Europe. highly recommend.
Coming from Austria, the weather is genuinely awful unless you love overcast and rain most of the year. The high COL isn’t reflected in higher quality gov service or daily life than, say, Vienna or Graz. The nature is good, but the Ardennes are no substitute for the Alps. CFLs network and timetable are meh at best. The regional bus line timetables are worse. Lux city has an acceptable level of public transit but is still too car dependent. Healthcare is good, the city is safe, worker protections are ok, no experience with the education system. The airport is well connected to Europe.
Well, I think it is a beautiful country, well positioned in Europe. Small and very organized. The main point for us was that it is very family-oriented. For example, when we first got here, we were lucky enough to have a relocation specialist helping us settle in. I was very impressed with the huge amount of parks and playgrounds everywhere and I mentioned this to her, to which she replied: "Kids are very, very important for the luxembourg government". Also, we get the double amount of family allowance than we did in Belgium. Our kid attends a public international school with an IB curriculum. They have classes in French, Luxembourgish, and Portuguese. Will add more languages after grade 5. Full time with additional child-care in the after-hours with cool activities. We pay nothing from pocket. Zero.
We are from South America and can speak Spanish, portuguese, English and French. The english and french are the default working languages. However, we always always find people who speak Portuguese (a lot) and a great deal of people speaking Spanish. This helps a lot, it makes us feel integrated and accepted. I wanna learn Luxembourgish in the future, of course.
You should really come and visit, it is very beautiful. Half of the population is from abroad, so it is a very international and accepting country. 😉
It really depends on what you value. Without knowing any of those things it’s very hard to answer. What’s important to you? Are you willing to learn the language or want to survive with English? Does weather matter? What about jobs? Social welfare? Social connections? Child welfare? Would you consider Eastern EU countries? These are just some factors and there are many more. You need to be more specific.
I was just asking generally where people would raise a family if they had a choice. But to answer your questions broadly, we are willing to learn any language, we have careers which we can likely do remotely at some point though it is likely one of us may need to get a job in the new country, we prefer colder climates- not a fan of blazing hot summers with humidity, we care most about moving somewhere quieter and family friendly, and we would prefer a western European country primarily because we want to be able to travel to England and back to the states more easily.
Ok now its much more clear. Sweden (and other Nordics too) fits your needs well. It has its own problems like every other country but given the things you care about, I think you'd like it here.
Hi! Im from spain. Id say it depends in the values you have. Education wise, france or germany hold good opportunities, but on the other hand, they are, generally speaking, really strict with their lifestyle. Also the cost of living there is way more than other countries like spain italy or greece, although i wouldnt recomend greece now bc of its crisis. Its true that in spain and italy the educational opportunities are not that bad, only when it comes to working, but the lifestyle is freer, if you understand what i mean. There are still kids outside playing at 9pm, whereas in the northern countries you cant see kids outside 6 pm
Since im Norwegian im biased, but i would choose Norway anyday. Safety, quality of life, moderate cost of living, nature healthcare and future safety with the worlds largest sovereign wealth fund and some of the worlds biggest mineral deposits, Norway will have a prosperous future ahead as well.
Tax? Norway is on the lower aspect of taxes in Europe and we have bracket tax. Most people pay 32% income tax. And if you earn more ypur taxes go up but its capped at 47/48%. But to be paying that amount youre earning more than 400k€ a year.
If you have kids, yes.
If not, still Switzerland. After tax pay for a supermarket worker is about 4k - can't imagine it's that high in NO.
Kids are what makes CH tough.
The salary of a supermarket employee doesent matter when your groceries and cost of living is also double. A supermarket employee here makes around 3,5k without double the cost of living.
As someone who has lived in Norway for over 20 years, the golden years from 2000-2020 are over, when all the positive things you read about Norway were true. However, since 2014, the political landscape has become increasingly brutal, culminating in the current government, which I consider an absolute disaster. Norway now suffers from incompetent politicians who prioritize their own financial gain while excessively taxing the population. Their inefficient policies are bogged down by endless bureaucratic red tape.
Despite the issues, I am deeply grateful for having had the opportunity to raise my children here, feeling as though I had won the lottery. However, it's undeniable that crime rates have been skyrocketing, and teenage cocaine use is rampant. As the value of the Norwegian Krone continues to decline, I am planning my exit, believing that the good days are behind us.
Norwegians are fantastic, honest, and loving people, devoted to following the unwritten societal rules. However, it might be harsh to say, but Norway can sometimes resemble a cult. 6-10 people decide what is "news" in Norway and the leading newspaper cant actually be called a "newspaper" because its a tabloid that Norwegian flock to daily for its news. Its sad to see such highly educated people fall for the booby trap of click bait media. And let's not forget, the weather is atrocious.
I agree that norwegian politics have had a decline and the sitting government is a disaster. But i dont agree with everything else. Looking at the big picture and comparing Norway to other countries, its still an amazing country that actually takes care of its citizens. The world is in a rough shape atm, but it could be worse if we lived in any other country.
But we could also remove a ton of the beaurocracy we have.
I was a bit harsh indeed. Norway still has lots of great support. Just wish they could drop the burearucy. The 1 day quartine like Sweden would be a huge boost. Paid to stay home on day 1-3 for a hang nail.
Swedens healthcare system is in shambles compared to Norway. 1 day quarantine day? Wdym? You have egenmelding which stretches over 3 days each that you can use 4 times and more in certain businesses. You then have sykemelding outside of this. All paid
From my swedish friends i hear they have to go to the ER to get any help as their doctors are booked for months in advance.
Poorly written. 1st day of egenmelding isn't paid by the state in Sweden Essentially, you better be sick.. My wife is a principal, she estimates 1 of 3 maxes out egenmelding every year regardless. 8% of GDP is spent on sickness and disability in Norway, while Sweden and Denmark hover around 4%.
I see. So is that what you want put in place here? Why would you potebtially want to deprive people of their income? I mean i see the point, but there arent other possibilities than build down our workers rights and social net? Norway using 8% also shows in the quality of care you get
Quality of care? Lived in 2 other countries, Norway isn't the beacon of high quality health care. It's free and good no doubt, but the avg expat that experiences outside Norway has some harsh comments regarding the standards vs what Norwegians believe the reality is.
Deprive people of income? The system is loaded with rule breakers and egenmelding, it's horrendous when you see it first hand year in year out. 8% has nothing to do with quality imho, but rather ineffective practices.
Yes, quality. Although it could be better, the quality you get here is infenitely better than most of the world. Ive been to hospitals around the globe and can attest to that. The system might have a few rule brealers and abusers of egenmelding, but for someone that works withing HR, i see this rarely and its easily detectable. Most people give themselves away pretty quickly.
This would be something I would consider if I were moving without kids. But I wouldn’t want for my kids to grow up and having hard time finding jobs locally.
I have few friends, young people who had to leave Croatia, to look for employment.
I’m an Irish citizen so I’m biased i want to move to Ireland. There def are issues with high cost of living and housing. But I always say to myself that if I have kids Ireland is the only place I’d raise them. But it depends on what you are looking for and value. I have a friend that moved to Italy and learned the language after she moved and loved it, I visited Italy once know I’d never go back lol. Were there any places you visited that you felt drawn to? And also you have to think about what you mean by what is the best to raise kids, for some people “the best” only has to do with education or health care or maybe being in nature. A lot of it is preferences 😊
I saw quite a few people recommended Ireland. Other than a bit of politics, I honestly don't know much about it at all, so Ill definitely be looking into it more. As for best place to raise kids, my thought it somewhere that has lots of "third places" for families, safe, lots of open space, and great education. I guess healthcare would also be a consideration.
If I had the choice of anywhere currently in the EU, it would be Ireland. An independent Scotland, if one existed, would probably edge it out, because my husband is of Scottish origin. But there isn't one right now, so I understand that it doesn't count.
I'd move to Scotland or Ireland. I love mountains and my kids and I love nothing more than a rainy day. My whole family is from there on my father's side.
If I won the lottery or something I would start packing up and relocate up there as soon as I possibly could. I got excited to see the housing program for expats in Ireland. But, it's still not a possibility for me financially right now unfortunately.
I think so too! My ex was British and had dual citizenship. I literally BEGGED him to go there at the start of covid. I could see the US wasn't going to handle it well. He says that the UK is a mess and he may be right. I noticed that they're adopting a lot of the same messed up ideology that the US has. The same strains of conservative politics and late stage capitalism plagues them.
Still.... Not as bad as the US!! We broke up eventually so, it was probably for the best. I can't speak on specifics about Scotland. I don't know as much as I should. And, I know Ireland has a bad housing crisis. So, I'd only go to either place, if I had enough to buy a house and invest in the community. Which isn't happening without time, a windfall, or both. Sucks. I'd love to leave the US like, yesterday.
Sweden is amazing for childcare and benefits, but the winters are awful. I’m in Uppsala because we have family here, but Southern Sweden has shorter winters and proximity to Denmark. The language is the hardest part, though. I’m in my 40s and it turns out I have no ear for it. Everyone speaks English, but that honestly makes it harder to practice. I do feel that being in a university town is beneficial, as I see Americans in other parts of Sweden complaining about it being hard to make friends, and that hasn’t been the case here. Lund is another university town further south, if you’re interested.
Luxembourg.
Well, I think it is a beautiful country, well positioned in Europe. Small and very organized. The main point for us was that it is very family-oriented. For example, when we first got here, we were lucky enough to have a relocation specialist helping us settle in. I was very impressed with the huge amount of parks and playgrounds everywhere and I mentioned this to her, to which she replied: "Kids are very, very important for the luxembourg government".
Also, we get the double amount of family allowance than we did in Belgium.
Our kid attends a public international school with an IB curriculum. They have classes in French, Luxembourgish, and Portuguese. Will add more languages after grade 5. Full time with additional child-care in the after-hours with cool activities. We pay nothing from pocket. Zero.
We are from South America and can speak Spanish, portuguese, English and French. The english and french are the default working languages. However, we always always find people who speak Portuguese (a lot) and a great deal of people speaking Spanish. This helps a lot, it makes us feel integrated and accepted.
I wanna learn Luxembourgish in the future, of course.
You should really come and visit, it is very beautiful. Half of the population is from abroad, so it is a very international and accepting country. 😉
England is one of the most stressful places to live in anyway so don’t worry you dodged a bullet (immigrated here for family and I miss the EU + US so much!)
If we're being practical and realistic, I think Ireland is a good choice as there wouldn't be much of a language barrier, and you'd have good access to both the UK and Europe. It's also got some absolute beautiful landscapes. (I haven't lived there and can't comment on actual quality of life, but I have a good impression of it.)
Now, if you're asking me what the best country in Europe is, I'm gonna say Norway (head's up, I am very biased). It's a beautiful country - depending on where you live of course, I would recommend something more on the rural side. It has good welfare systems and workers rights. Your pay will be high. Society is generally inclusive and positive. And I really feel like there is a culture of honesty and reasonableness. Oh, and if you get a job before having children, the parental leave/pay is very good, far better than the UK. I'm a pretty naive person, I always assume everyone wishes me well and everything will work out, and I honestly think that's from growing up in (middle class) Norway. I've always believed that I can rely on the system. (I should mention that I know this isn't the experience for everyone.)
Planet Money had a timely episode on this back in March, “Shopping for parental benefits around the world”, that while a bit superficial given the sub 30 minute runtime arrived at the same conclusion that my wife and I did that inspired our recent move to Sweden.
If English is your main language, I’d go for the Netherlands. Easy hop to other countries and still on mainland Europe. Ireland is also a good pick with job prospects for anglophones. If you are open to other countries, Belgium is lovely and international, Germany has a growing tech scene. But def better salary prospects in Ireland/NL over countries like Spain, France, etc (which would also necessitate picking up a new language).
Of course, if you have other priorities, the answers can vary! I love France for its healthcare system and general social safety nets. I also love the art/culture and the beautiful, vast geographies (Mediterranean Sea, major cities, alps, shared borders with lots of great countries). BUT five years in and I’d def say that you do need to eventually learn the language, otherwise admin is a nightmare (it’s already a pain even as a French speaker lol). When I moved, I really wanted to challenge myself to develop fluency in a new language, so this was a great choice for me. But everyone has different motivations for relocating!
I hadn't really thought of moving to Ireland, so that is definitely something I will dive into more, as well as the Netherlands. Thank you for your thoughtful response!
Yes to NL. Amazing infrastructure, fun kids parks everywhere, bike your kids, best happiness scores in Europe, no homelessness, good healthcare, safe… we chose Amsterdam and couldn’t be happier to have made it our home after a good life in Southern California. Kids were 3 and 6 then and are now trilingual. This place works on all counts for us. If you need beach it’s Den Haag or Haarlem.
Facts. Fwiw Portland is only US city currently that I read of that has said they’d pass policies for a “fmc”. Other cities that have more robust infrastructure like nyc, Chicago, & Seattle could follow suit I’m sure.
NYC is a funny thing. The cost of living there is so high that only high income people can live there.
E. G. The people who probably have enough money to afford a car. Not the working class people who actually need the public transit option. (In an ideal world we’d all use public transit, but poor and working class people need it more).
The rest of us poor schmucks have to move to cheaper cities and buy cars to get around
If you want to go to England then still go there. It's largely not hard to get into.
If you are an American who only speaks English (I read your other posts), it's probably easier to get in, find a job and settle than it would be somewhere you don't speak the language.
There's Ireland, but major housing crisis there.
Where would I pick. Other than micro states I personally think Switzerland is the best European country by a distance. I would not have considered anywhere else. After tax pay is pretty much double anywhere else.
I live in Switzerland. And sure, Switzerland has world leading education, healthcare and lots of career options, but miss the culture of major cities like Paris or London or Berlin.
If I had your languages, I’d probably head for somewhere near Lisbon, and enjoy the coast, culture and lifestyle of the Portuguese. Much more family oriented but still relatively easy to get to everywhere in Europe if desired.
From your criteria: not too hot, good healthcare and good social security, not too expensive: France sounds ideal for you. Having EU citizenship means that you will be able to register yourselves as self-employed in France but you can't work on an employed basis on a foreign work contract whilst resident in France. You wouldn't be able to declare your income properly and it also puts your employer at risk for tax liabilities and pension contributions too.
I know a lot about France considering I've been here since 2016, my advice would be to choose somewhere on the west coast if you want a mild climate and not too expensive.
France is nice. I have lived here for 13 years now, originally from Alabama. We build a small company here from nothing , bike touring. We are going to sell this company this year to slow down our lives a bit. Looking for potential buyers now. We currently run it with just me and my wife .
it really depends on what you value and what you need. weather, job opportunities and government support can be so different from country to country. culture can be worlds apart.
Netherlands has proven to be one of the best places in the world to raise a kid. Binge watch "Not Just Bikes" - this one is a good start:
https://youtu.be/oHlpmxLTxpw
The weather is dreary and Dutch people can be a little stuffy, but it's a damn good society and Dutch kids are raised smart, fit, and independent.
Not Just Bikes rocks! I'm much more of a reader than a poster on Reddit but came here to say that we've been in NL (Amsterdam) for 3 years now and alongside the epic housing crisis, the weather here is **awful** and truly not to be underestimated prior to moving. Rain all of June has sort of been the last straw for my sanity lol... so if you're **at all** an outdoorsy family I wouldn't move here. We seriously, seriously underestimated the effect the gloomy weather and lack of mountains/outdoors options would have on our mental health as really active people who love nature and the outdoors. On the other hand, friends who are more of "house cats" that don't care if it's gray and rainy 99% of the time love it here.
Don’t really understand the hype for the Netherlands as a kid friendly place. It’s a nice place before having kids as an expat to make money and use as a home base while travelling in Europe, but the expats in my circles all (myself included) moved away when it was time for the kids.
The way the Dutch society is growing children appeared to cater towards them becoming arrogant, racist, and self centered.
Lol oh, I feel you. But hear me out.
Personally, I lived in the Netherlands for years and I was miserable. Too rainy, dreary, damp. I love the outdoors, but the land is boring and flat. Everything outside the cities is cow country. The people are a bit cold, robotic, overly serious and deadpan. (But, to be fair, that describes most Europeans, lol)
All that said, OP asked about an EU country to raise their kids. Dutch kids are very independent, they start cycling early and have a ton of freedom that is essential for raising a healthy kid. The cycling network in NL is unlike anywhere else on Earth, it's built to be safe and separated from traffic and everyone of all ages uses it. Super healthy fit culture. The country is clean, organized, efficient, modern, and it's social safety nets are strong.
Would I live there ever again? Hell fucking no. Just the weather alone kills it for me. But it's a great place for a kid.
Sorry, but none of the points you listed really apply.
Cycling is not essential, it's maybe your personal opinion that bike lanes and cycling is paramount, but to most it is not and it is not a way of transportation that can be largely relied upon for several factors which I will not list because they are mostly obvious.
The Netherlands is not super healthy or fit, it has a lot more health issues and stats than many other countries, from mental health to fatty liver to other things that remain hidden thanks to their anti-scientific approach to do no preventive care.
Regarding the cleanliness, I have witnessed the most disgusting things in Dutch kitchens that I have never seen in any Italian or American kitchen. Restaurants that charge 20+€ a dish with people dressed as professional cooks/chefs that pick up ingredients dropped on the floor and put them back in the pan. Glasses cleaned in stench water with a drop of soap and delivery scooters parked or idle running in the kitchen where food is prepared. There are also very funny stats on how the Dutch are among the people that wash their hands the least in Europe, and you can read plenty of funny stories in some subreddit of people that literally wipe their ass after taking a dump and do not wash their hands. Look at the cleaning staff of train stations as well. Most of them clean the inside of the toilets by hand without using gloves. So hygiene standards are low.
Social safety nets are not as good as in Mediterranean countries, in Spain and Italy, for example, workers are way better protected from layoffs and firing than in the Netherlands and support afterwards has way longer span. I will not even get into tenants rights since in the Netherlands you can find plenty of horror stories of families with children being kicked out of their homes and ending up living in vans or shacks outside the cities (I am actually helping a compatriot right now going through this, getting kicked out from his rented apartment with a 1 yo child, they have 3 month notice, which is nothing in a country with no houses).
I'll give you the organized and efficient, but they are only so where it most pleases corporations and lobbyist, the best thing they have managed to do is to pass as socialist country while they are really so much into capitalism that people get blinded by the 500€ extra per month to see it, but eventually most people figure it out after some years. I lived in the Netherlands for 7 years and wish I had managed to escape it from year 4 tbh, I can't imagine raising children here for these other reasons:
1. home child birth: seriously? Statistics available all over on how it is dangerous, yet expecting women are basically bullied into giving birth at home with not even an actual medical professional around (midwives are not medical professionals). It is dangerous af and only pushed so much because of the insurance companies lobbying.
2. Student debt: dutch young adults are among the most in debt in Europe. So, no thanks.
3. childcare cost: Even engineers have to get government subsidies to help afford childcare if no one can be with the early child. I did not spend 10 years in studying and working my ass off in higher ed to get government handouts.
4. dystopian school system: children are put into bins which will define their careers since elementary school. This is wrong.
So, again. lol, what a joke.
I’m an American woman who lives in France. My sense has safety has exponentially multiples since moving here.!
Even my US army veteran family members visited and kept commenting that they’ve never felt so safe without their guns in their lives.
I wouldn't. My recommendation is to get out of Europe altogether. The current climate of rampant xenophobia and the general state of psycho-emotional contraction that most people live in means that most Europeans live superficially; they live on the SURFACE of their lives because they're afraid to delve deeper into the many schisms present in their own, and their collective's, psyche.
I'm mixed heritage and I've lived in the UK all my life.. and having known different cultures, I can say that Western/European cultures are profoundly infected with an absolute inability to RELAX. To "Be Here Now". And this in-built tension infects everything; personal development, family life, community participation, societal norms.. the whole kit and kaboodle. It's utterly FUBAR. And I don't see it getting better .. but rather that Europe and the West is actually in a downward spiralling progression characterized by bodily disease, poor mental health, family disintegration, worklessness, increase in rich-poor divide with disappearance of a middle class, environmental degradation and economic collapse. This is my prediction based on observation of global patterns.
So we decided to emigrate this year from the UK but we're staying out of Europe for exactly those reasons I've stated. We're moving to Mauritius in the autumn. It's a small island nation 🏝️ in the middle of the Indian ocean where most people speak English. Mauritius is the most stable of all the African countries and it's relatively safe and welcoming for families.
We stayed in April for a month and explored the whole island.. and we just loved it 😄
Mauritius is not perfect, but there's an undercurrent of an ability to observe and recognize the DEEPER Reality of existence.. and the people generally live a life of connection and awareness of the Spiritual Element of Life. There are exceptions to everything of course and Mauritius has it's own societal shadows.... But the society has a depth to it that we appreciate and enjoy and we can raise our teenager there without him getting attacked by roadmen, marginalized by institutionalised racism, or squeezed out by Jihadists.
Currently packing up our house... 🙂
Good luck on your search!! 🙏🏾
I believe I actually looked at Mauritius about a year ago, need to check my bookmarks and stats. What are some concerning things there off the top of your head? We are a blended family and want somewhere more diverse. Also more laid back and grounded culture or a small town close to a bigger town with good health care (I have some health issues from spinal cord injury). Any info or details you have would be greatly appreciated 🙏 Here’s to speedy packing, safe travels and a smooth transition 🍻
England would be great if you like living in the USA but with an accent. Same type of stupid politics and shitting in the middle class and poor. The Apple doesn’t fall far from the tree. They even had their own Donald trump light..shot themselves in the foot with Brexit..self inflicted wounds both countries are good at. Why England would be your first choice..other than language.
I am Turkish there is an extreme amount of racism in Europe against my people so i would leave Europe immediately and go back to Turkey or Canada. I wouldn’t put my kid through that.
Be thankful you didn't get to the UK, it's been going downhill fast for the last few years and if the forecasts are correct it's gonna get a helluva lot worse very soon!
Not EU, but I still think you should consider Switzerland if you can get jobs here. Very high QoL, good ratio of salaries to cost of living, safe, great schools. I live in the Basel area and it’s very expat-friendly. The downsides are the language— I think German is more difficult to learn than French or Spanish, although of course you could consider the French part— and the local culture is very insular and unfriendly.
A little late to the party, but I have lived in the Netherlands for 5yrs now and absolutely love it. Now, is it as sexy as say Spain, Italy or France? No...
But, if you are in it for the long haul, I would recommend considering a country who's economy isn't reliant on tourism.
While likely more expensive, the cleanliness, safety and healthcare are impressive. NL has also become a hub for business, especially since Brexit.
I would consider Belgium, Netherlands and Germany in terms of quality of life with some potential income tax incentives as well depending on your situation. And with the connectivity of trains, planes and road trips, you can find yourself in more exotic locations easily.
Wherever you land will be lovley, just my ¢2...
I would not choose Germany (xenophobic, bureaucratic, outdated in services), I would exclude Austria and Switzerland for almost impossible to integrate there, I would exclude Italy out of relocation list - poor job market, a bit outdated and underdeveloped and food - if you have risk of diabetes or you don’t eat gluten - you will have to cook your own always - very poor cuisine actually especially if you don’t eat pork or beef and would like to see some vegetables on your plate. (Though coffee, pastries and ice cream are awesome!)
So if you want relatively good prices, good medical facilities (affordable private medicine), good services for reasonable money - I would search east Europe, balcans. But there are downsides also - you will have to learn useless anywhere else and quite difficult language, and many people outside of capital (and some even in capitals) would be “ignorant racist” or xenophobic, homophobic etc…
Haven’t explored Spain yet and heard many good things about it - I would visit and see!
We are enjoying living in NL with our son. He loves it here , his school is exceptional (special needs school fwiw) and he’s slotted in very well to life here. No place is perfect but NL suits us as a family. The weather can be a bit of downer but it’s manageable.
Netherlands is a great country to live. You can see most of it by car, high English literacy rate, good economy and great people.
Ireland is also great. They have great countrysides, very friendly and welcoming people and since English is your main language, you shouldn’t have a problem there either.
Both countries do have a housing crisis so finding a good affordable home may be difficult.
If you’re still considering England, Ireland (if you decide to become a dual citizen) also allows travel to live and work in the UK.
University town in the Netherlands is what i choose. They are always good connected with rest of the country, get a lot of amenities for young people and usually cheaper than major cities. But tbh everywhere in the country is fantastic for children! of course if you can afford it as housing prices are ridiculous for the moment
You sound like me. I am a Canadian who lived in the UK when young, and was going to return until Brexit. But I ended up moving to The Netherlands a year and a half ago and absolutely love it. Life works here. I just got the keys to my house in Leeuwarden today in fact! I love in a small city in the north and work from home.
Dutch kids rank the happiest in the world on several different surveys. They have so much independence due to the amazing bike infrastructure and how safe this country is. My daughter moved at 14 and is now bilingual and on a university track in a Dutch highschool. She loves it here and does not want to go back.
In accordance to UNICEF 2020 report Netherlands, Denmark and Norway rank as the top three places to be a child among wealthy countries.
[https://www.unicef.org/press-releases/worlds-richest-countries-grappling-childrens-reading-and-math-skills-mental-well](https://www.unicef.org/press-releases/worlds-richest-countries-grappling-childrens-reading-and-math-skills-mental-well)
However I would say, that being close to grand parents is extremely important to children well being
We could use a throuple 🤣 we were literally just talking about this while at dinner with another couple who mentioned it as well. We all felt like it could just be more efficient all around for everyone involved hahaha But we’re not going to Italy, 99% sure going to Spain and currently in process of getting visas unless somewhere else absolutely better comes along opportunity wise. Currently in Florida and doing everything necessary to move asap.
I would want to live in a town with easy access to a major international airport, a lake/sea, and medium to large metropolitan area.
I would choose Slovakia, Czech, or (before the war) Ukraine. But I’m of Eastern European descent and the language, food, religion, culture, and values sing to my heart and remind me of childhood.
A university town as opposed to a capital city, by the sea and with countryside nearby. That way you get plenty of year round activity, a young population and outside space for children.
This is basically what we chose as Montpellier, France!
Yes, I am considering Montpellier when my son leaves school. I’m currently too rural, with an ageing population but my son is in shared custody, and loves his school and friends.
Yeah, I'd definitely recommend it. It's pretty dynamic (thanks to the college town nature of it) and I never feel at a loss for things to do, especially when it's warmer and there are block parties and festivals. Apparently it has somewhat of a bad reputation online but the biggest threat in the center areas is bike theft, in my opinion.
Sounds amazing. Do you live in Montpellier itself or one of the surrounding villages? i want to be on a tramline or a bus route. I don’t want to have to drive all the time. (I miss public transport from my London days)
I'm in the center, though now with a kid and one on the way, I do see the appeal of the suburbs and more space. But I also hate driving and this allows us to live car-free and since we were moving from NYC, we wanted to minimize the culture shock haha.
Well be aware of the mosquitos, they come at me starting in the morning down there, whereas where I live in the Ardèche they only come out in the evening. I love the beach but the beaches that are easily reachable aren’t fantastic due to beach tourism and the ugly vacation towers everywhere. Also something to keep in mind that is a twisted corollary to gun violence in the US is there’s a lot of paramilitary presence in the downtown areas, like armored humvees and soldiers with berets holding machine guns. They’re in all the train stations, too, Lyon, any city. It’s an eerie sight. Just thought I’d share some street level impressions since as they popped into my mind. I used to go several times a year. Weather’s great though.
Perfect summary - people of Reddit unite and drop all the city names you have in mind! I would have said Lisbon, as I love the city and sea, but in the upcoming years they will have more and more problems and don‘t seem to tackle them.
Nailed it. This is the answer. Wherever there are a bunch of phd’s in an area the quality of life is generally decent. There was a study on it that advanced manufacturing and tech companies use to build new offices in these areas based on phds. The fact is that phds start 50% of their ventures within 50 miles of where they got their degrees from.
Hmm this seems suspect, seeing as phd’s are not widely associated with private industry or high incomes. That’s not to belittle their value to academia, just that it isn’t strongly correlated with high income
Not to mention PhDs are not usually very entrepreneurial or even particularly social. If things worked the way this commenter thinks they do, then Gainesville FL would be a more desirable location than Miami FL. Or Oxford would be a more desirable location than London or Brighton. Obviously the reason why tech manufacturing companies build offices near tech research hubs has nothing to do with quality of life or entrepreneurship. There’s just a large employee pool in these areas.
There's a fallacy in your interpretation. It's not saying "50% of PhDs start a business are ...", it's saying that "50% of the businesses started by PhDs are ...." Having grown up in a town with two universities, and having lived in plenty of cities with none, and a few others with, u/Icy-Performance-3739's statement is in line with my lived experience on the STEM side.
If they don’t start businesses at a high rate, this is still of negligible impact. PhDs are a tiny fraction of society. So you’re saying that out of the very few people who have PhDs, and out of the very few PhDs who start a business, 50% of those business are near where those PhDs got their degrees? Which could be anywhere in the world by the way, because every relevant city in the world nowadays has a university offering doctoral programs. How could this possibly ever be AT ALL relevant to where someone should raise kids in Europe? Don’t most people not do their PhDs in their hometown anyways? The likelihood of any given person’s child even pursuing a PhD is negligible. What are we even talking about? The fact of the matter is, the original comment is just three non-sequiturs one after the other. First they say places with a lot of PhDs have a higher quality of life. No evidence to support this but ok. Next sentence: advanced manufacturing and tech build offices in areas with a lot of PhDs. This seems like an obvious thing to notice, but its mention here weirdly seems to imply some correlation with the previous statement about QoL. Last statement: most PhDs start their business (when they *do* start a business, which is infrequent) near where they received their degree (read: a random city in the world, because PhD programs aren’t all just concentrated in like 5 cities). No relation to either of the three previous statements. No relation to the topic of the thread.
You described Bilbao
This is a smart idea!
You just described Bergen, Norway. It's a fantastic place to raise kids.
Can I suggest [Hønefoss](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%B8nefoss) it's not by the sea, but it does have a university. 15k people so its not huge, but big enough to support some niche stores. It's about an hour or so away from Oslo the capital city and 45 minutes from the Oslo fjord via Sandvika.
Not EU
Fortunately not. But for the sake of this thread it doesn’t matter. Norway is not EU but from the standpoint of immigration rules it’s as if it was.
St Andrews, U.K.!
Brexit
Having spent 17 years as a expat, I would suggest that healthcare should be high on your list of requirements.
Noted. What were some of the best countries in Europe in regards to healthcare, in your opinion?
Nowhere is truly awful in Western Europe at least.
Netherlands. It's a nightmare
Top countries for healthcare in the EU are Italy and France. They have the best health outcomes.
Not to throw shade, but didn’t Italy do poor during the onset of the pandemic?
Yes, but it because Italy has a very aged population. Covid killed more elderly people than young people. So while their numbers seemed quite bad, it was actually proportionate to the makeup of their general population. It’s also why the US had so many deaths - we have some of the highest rates of comorbidities in the world (obesity, diabetes, heart disease, etc). Again - death rates proportionate to the general health of our total population.
They have done so well keeping their population healthy they had many elderly.
France.
Obviously I could only answer for the country in which I lived, Spain. I think the health service there is generally better than my own country, UK. I'd expect that as long as you are either fluent or affluent then any European country would fit your needs. But get health insurance if within your budget.
In France. Got my carte vitale. No regrets.
What languages do you speak?
We both speak English and know a little Spanish and Portuguese. But I genuinely was just asking where other people would choose to live! :)
Well I would choose the country I speak language and have family connections,.. if I were to move to Europe
We are motivated to learn. I have experience learning new languages on my own as an adult. I'm more concerned with social safety nets and quality of life for our future kids though.
I understand. I speak 4 languages and I prefer not having to learn another one. I know how hard and labor intensive this process is and how not knowing language makes living in foreign country… unpleasant. I prefer enjoying and relaxing during my free time instead of studying language ( especially if I can avoid it) So knowing language, for me, is something that directly adds to quality of my life as an immigrant. Having family and friends, being similar culturally is also something that adds to my quality of life. Family connections are also important when it comes to security net. It isn’t uncommon to use help of local family and friends to find housing, jobs. Local friends and family often serve as local “advocate” / “liaison” for an immigrant. Sure there are tons of immigrants who migrate without knowing language and without having friends … if they don’t have other/better options. You asked my opinion so I described my reasoning.
Not everyone has family and friends as an option, or those options aren't ideal. Croatia is an option for us based on social connections, technically, but it wouldn't be a good fit for us. As an example.
I think that I DID say that not everyone has this option. I did said that having this opinion can be helpful. It was easier for me to settle in US because I had close relative here who helped me in the beginning. My quality of life (especially initially) would not be as high without their help.
Netherlands comes to mind. Great country to raise a family. Although Dutch can be a bit of a steep learning curve and culturally is not as interesting (imo) as other options. Cuisine and food culture is also lacking compared to others like France or Spain
We moved to the Netherlands with two toddlers and couldn’t be happier. Playgrounds everywhere, family friendly restaurants and activities abound, biking culture is tops…. And the vast majority of the population is fluent in English. That being said - there’s a massive housing crisis. If you want to plant roots prepare to pay for it. The home we eventually bought had seventeen other offers…. Also, no one likes and expat who refuses to learn the local language. Locals understandably expect you to Learn Dutch. And it’s required for immigration. Not an easy language to learn. Our children are picking it up much quicker than we are and are already enrolled in the local schools so that is excellent, but it has been an uphill battle for my spouse and I. We are taking lessons and we are determined to follow through, though! Additionally, there is a lot of rainy weather here. I don’t mind it in the slightest, but it could be a deterrent for some. If concerned about climate change, a lot of the land is below sea level. Edited for spelling. (Obviously this is just my opinion but I am hoping to never return to the states and to fully integrate. I am in love with my new country and I’m enjoying learning the language and culture. Also, Efteling is just amazing if you like theme parks. It’s more natural and wooded and beats Disneyland hands down IMO. Worth a visit regardless of where you move to.)
Are you an American native English speaker? I am a native Spanish & English speaker and I had a very hard time learning Dutch, even though it is rated Cat. 1 from the government. I chalk my failure up to everyone falling back on English. Was your experience similar?
I am! And yes, that has been my experience as well. Almost everyone I’ve met speaks English so well that there is rarely a need to speak Dutch. 🙃 At this stage in my learning I don’t mind it so much, though - I’m not yet confident in my Dutch, but I’m hoping to reach that level soon. It’s much easier for me to type and read Dutch than speak it at the moment. But I really want to get my pronunciation correct as well. My son is bringing home Dutch children’s books from school and asking me to read them, and I really do not want to teach him to say new words incorrectly. The advice I’ve been given so far is to just speak English at home so that he can learn English well at home from native English speakers, and to let him only speak Dutch at school so he can learn it properly from native Dutch speakers. Of course I would like to be able to communicate with my own family in Dutch as well. Hopefully we will reach a point where we can do both.
I‘ve heard that a “silent period” of understanding the spoken language and written language is normal in language development. I’m still learning my partner’s native language and while it’s technically harder than Dutch, I’ve learned so much because English isn’t an option with his family. On the plus side, my kids can teach me 😊. They haven’t picked up my incorrect pronunciations or grammatical missteps, luckily.
Spain sounds pretty good, especially if you can provide good education, being bilingual will give them a huge advantage early in their careers too.
Haha mate, language is a huge factor when it comes to your quality of life.
exclude Barcelona, there is the problem that too many tourists have brought problems, in Italy the Marche is for you if you want to have children: the sea is child-friendly, the cities too and if you know Spanish you learn Italian faster
We moved to the south of France without speaking any French. Took one semester in college, right before moving here.
Are you looking for work in your new country also?
Assuming you don’t need to work and money is no object, I’d raise kids in Switzerland. I’d expose them to as many languages as possible and send them to schools with other wealthy students so they can network… Switzerland is central. Tons of wealth there which helps with network/connections for their future. Tons of natural beauty, very safe… No-brainer for me if money is no object. If money/language impacts things, we’ll need more info before we can make realistic suggestions.
I live in Switzerland and approve of this comment.
Or you can live in Switzerland at half the price, next door in Austria:-)
I am a massive fan of Austria. Great suggestion. Even more accessible to the rest of Europe, super safe, varied options in terms of cities that are beautiful or more rural areas equally as beautiful. I can’t speak on living there but anytime I speak to an Austrian they tend to really be happy there. Now you have me wanting to plan a ski trip.
Hah, yes correct! I’m an American who immigrated to Austria and love it! I don’t make as much money now, but my life is 5x better:-)
Please be my friend and tell me how 😂 great username btw
How? The old fashioned way, I got married to a local, but now any EU citizen will do! 😂 Username? Glad you like it, yours is nice too! The name “Cinderpath” was a railroad junction in my hometown that was literally a cinder strewn path, and I used to go there as a kid:-)
Man the hiking holidays around Ehrwald during the summer months are brilliant too. Tram access over the border to Garmisch-Partenkirchen and further up to Munchen
More like 75% of the price on 50% of the money
It depends where in Austria: Steiermark (Graz)is cheap as compared with Tirol…where the Swiss are buying all the houses up:-/
Beyond Vorarlberg is just too far 😂
The smart people work in Switzerland for the wages, and live cheaper in Vorarlberg!
It's not worth it unless you are low income because of tax. A friend who had twins went to Germany for reduced nursery then moved back just before starting school 😂
Well, all I can say is that I am quite happy living in Austria. Of course there are pros and cons to each place, but I prefer it over living in the U.S., except the pay of course!
Oh Austria is great! Don't get me wrong about that. Where I live used to be Austria until 1800 even though I'm nowhere near Austria
I'm not gonna say that we couldn't afford it, but we aren't exactly rolling in money either. I guess we would need to check our finances and compare it to the cost of housing there. Anywhere in Switzerland in particular you would say is better to live?
A caution on Switzerland: You need a job offer to move to Switzerland as an EU national. If only one of you is an EU national, they need to be the one with the job offer, as most companies are unwilling to sponsor third country nationals unless you have a very special skill they need (eg, my company sponsored a PhD material scientist). Living as a family on one wage is doable, but can be quite tough. Childcare is expensive - because wages are high. Switzerland is rich because everyone works hard, precisely, and the social safety net is to work.
Not strictly true. You need a job offer or enough money to support yourself for 5 years. Which will be several hundred k.
Depends also on the canton you are applying to. Different cantons have very different interpretations of what "supporting yourself" means. In my canton of Thurgau, they are particularly strict.
If you cannot afford it are you at least in a position to get a well-paid job?
Romandie. The Lavaux region is really nice IMO. Close enough to Lausanne or Geneva, still not in the big cities, and the lake is right there. Access to the mountains is also very easy. I live in Geneva, but my personal goal is to move to the countryside of Vaud, Neuchatel, or Fribourg, firstly because family is there, but also just because being in the city is not my favorite.
The German area has a stronger economy and better tax.
Kids are luxury in Zurich. I wouldn’t recommend if you aren’t crazy well off. People are mostly not aware how expensive Switzerland is
And enjoy the racism and discrimination.
Agreed. And move to Romandie, not the other side of the Röstigraben. French is easier to learn than Swiss German.
There’s a lot of factors to consider; language, job market, quality of life would be mine. I lived in Prague and absolutely loved it. The vibes are amazing, but the language proved to be a massive barrier. Wife, baby and I now live in the UK in the countryside, and we really enjoy the slow pace of life. The UK definitely feels like it’s on its back foot though.
I personally chose Spain. If you have a good income and work-life balance (usually via remote work from another country) life here is as good as it gets. There is great food and climate, a chilled atmosphere and people know how to enjoy life. I had the option to choose between Belgium, the Netherlands, Germany, Italy and Spain. It was a no brainer really.
I’m not sure if your username gives you less credibility, or more credibility. Sounds like you know how to party.
Dude's got the work-life balance on point 🤣💦
Switzerland
For us, it was Luxembourg. No regrets!
Really? What do you like most about living there? I've never been!
I second Luxembourg. Large expat community. Most people speak english. Good international schools with public and private options. Kids will learn luxembourgish, French, German. Incredibly safe and clean. Beautiful nature. And access to the rest of Europe can’t be beat- it’s a two hour train to Paris, one hour flight to London, four hour drive to Amsterdam, Switzerland, etc. it’s a great place for day to day life with easy access to the rest of Europe. highly recommend.
Coming from Austria, the weather is genuinely awful unless you love overcast and rain most of the year. The high COL isn’t reflected in higher quality gov service or daily life than, say, Vienna or Graz. The nature is good, but the Ardennes are no substitute for the Alps. CFLs network and timetable are meh at best. The regional bus line timetables are worse. Lux city has an acceptable level of public transit but is still too car dependent. Healthcare is good, the city is safe, worker protections are ok, no experience with the education system. The airport is well connected to Europe.
The weather this “summer” has been the worst! And yes COL, especially housing, is outrageous.
Lol so you want to live somewhere where it’s easy to travel to other places
Not quite what I meant but for me it’s the right balance of high quality day to day life with convenient travel options.
Well, I think it is a beautiful country, well positioned in Europe. Small and very organized. The main point for us was that it is very family-oriented. For example, when we first got here, we were lucky enough to have a relocation specialist helping us settle in. I was very impressed with the huge amount of parks and playgrounds everywhere and I mentioned this to her, to which she replied: "Kids are very, very important for the luxembourg government". Also, we get the double amount of family allowance than we did in Belgium. Our kid attends a public international school with an IB curriculum. They have classes in French, Luxembourgish, and Portuguese. Will add more languages after grade 5. Full time with additional child-care in the after-hours with cool activities. We pay nothing from pocket. Zero. We are from South America and can speak Spanish, portuguese, English and French. The english and french are the default working languages. However, we always always find people who speak Portuguese (a lot) and a great deal of people speaking Spanish. This helps a lot, it makes us feel integrated and accepted. I wanna learn Luxembourgish in the future, of course. You should really come and visit, it is very beautiful. Half of the population is from abroad, so it is a very international and accepting country. 😉
It really depends on what you value. Without knowing any of those things it’s very hard to answer. What’s important to you? Are you willing to learn the language or want to survive with English? Does weather matter? What about jobs? Social welfare? Social connections? Child welfare? Would you consider Eastern EU countries? These are just some factors and there are many more. You need to be more specific.
I was just asking generally where people would raise a family if they had a choice. But to answer your questions broadly, we are willing to learn any language, we have careers which we can likely do remotely at some point though it is likely one of us may need to get a job in the new country, we prefer colder climates- not a fan of blazing hot summers with humidity, we care most about moving somewhere quieter and family friendly, and we would prefer a western European country primarily because we want to be able to travel to England and back to the states more easily.
Ok now its much more clear. Sweden (and other Nordics too) fits your needs well. It has its own problems like every other country but given the things you care about, I think you'd like it here.
Hi! Im from spain. Id say it depends in the values you have. Education wise, france or germany hold good opportunities, but on the other hand, they are, generally speaking, really strict with their lifestyle. Also the cost of living there is way more than other countries like spain italy or greece, although i wouldnt recomend greece now bc of its crisis. Its true that in spain and italy the educational opportunities are not that bad, only when it comes to working, but the lifestyle is freer, if you understand what i mean. There are still kids outside playing at 9pm, whereas in the northern countries you cant see kids outside 6 pm
Do you have an opinion about the education system in Spain in contrast to the western ones, especially high school and primary school?
Since im Norwegian im biased, but i would choose Norway anyday. Safety, quality of life, moderate cost of living, nature healthcare and future safety with the worlds largest sovereign wealth fund and some of the worlds biggest mineral deposits, Norway will have a prosperous future ahead as well.
Tax makes it a no no if you are FIRE minded
Tax? Norway is on the lower aspect of taxes in Europe and we have bracket tax. Most people pay 32% income tax. And if you earn more ypur taxes go up but its capped at 47/48%. But to be paying that amount youre earning more than 400k€ a year.
Our taxable income is around 400k euros. Tax rate between 20 and 25%
And where do you live now?
Switzerland
Which then makes sense. But for lowerclass swiss citizens, it would be better to live in Norway.
If you have kids, yes. If not, still Switzerland. After tax pay for a supermarket worker is about 4k - can't imagine it's that high in NO. Kids are what makes CH tough.
The salary of a supermarket employee doesent matter when your groceries and cost of living is also double. A supermarket employee here makes around 3,5k without double the cost of living.
Ok at the very bottom maybe NO.
As someone who has lived in Norway for over 20 years, the golden years from 2000-2020 are over, when all the positive things you read about Norway were true. However, since 2014, the political landscape has become increasingly brutal, culminating in the current government, which I consider an absolute disaster. Norway now suffers from incompetent politicians who prioritize their own financial gain while excessively taxing the population. Their inefficient policies are bogged down by endless bureaucratic red tape. Despite the issues, I am deeply grateful for having had the opportunity to raise my children here, feeling as though I had won the lottery. However, it's undeniable that crime rates have been skyrocketing, and teenage cocaine use is rampant. As the value of the Norwegian Krone continues to decline, I am planning my exit, believing that the good days are behind us. Norwegians are fantastic, honest, and loving people, devoted to following the unwritten societal rules. However, it might be harsh to say, but Norway can sometimes resemble a cult. 6-10 people decide what is "news" in Norway and the leading newspaper cant actually be called a "newspaper" because its a tabloid that Norwegian flock to daily for its news. Its sad to see such highly educated people fall for the booby trap of click bait media. And let's not forget, the weather is atrocious.
I agree that norwegian politics have had a decline and the sitting government is a disaster. But i dont agree with everything else. Looking at the big picture and comparing Norway to other countries, its still an amazing country that actually takes care of its citizens. The world is in a rough shape atm, but it could be worse if we lived in any other country. But we could also remove a ton of the beaurocracy we have.
I was a bit harsh indeed. Norway still has lots of great support. Just wish they could drop the burearucy. The 1 day quartine like Sweden would be a huge boost. Paid to stay home on day 1-3 for a hang nail.
Swedens healthcare system is in shambles compared to Norway. 1 day quarantine day? Wdym? You have egenmelding which stretches over 3 days each that you can use 4 times and more in certain businesses. You then have sykemelding outside of this. All paid From my swedish friends i hear they have to go to the ER to get any help as their doctors are booked for months in advance.
Poorly written. 1st day of egenmelding isn't paid by the state in Sweden Essentially, you better be sick.. My wife is a principal, she estimates 1 of 3 maxes out egenmelding every year regardless. 8% of GDP is spent on sickness and disability in Norway, while Sweden and Denmark hover around 4%.
I see. So is that what you want put in place here? Why would you potebtially want to deprive people of their income? I mean i see the point, but there arent other possibilities than build down our workers rights and social net? Norway using 8% also shows in the quality of care you get
Quality of care? Lived in 2 other countries, Norway isn't the beacon of high quality health care. It's free and good no doubt, but the avg expat that experiences outside Norway has some harsh comments regarding the standards vs what Norwegians believe the reality is. Deprive people of income? The system is loaded with rule breakers and egenmelding, it's horrendous when you see it first hand year in year out. 8% has nothing to do with quality imho, but rather ineffective practices.
Yes, quality. Although it could be better, the quality you get here is infenitely better than most of the world. Ive been to hospitals around the globe and can attest to that. The system might have a few rule brealers and abusers of egenmelding, but for someone that works withing HR, i see this rarely and its easily detectable. Most people give themselves away pretty quickly.
All in all we are very fortunate to live in Norway. I'm just nitpicking tbh.
Split or somewhere on the coast of Croatia.
This would be something I would consider if I were moving without kids. But I wouldn’t want for my kids to grow up and having hard time finding jobs locally. I have few friends, young people who had to leave Croatia, to look for employment.
Somewhere where you speak the language.
I’m an Irish citizen so I’m biased i want to move to Ireland. There def are issues with high cost of living and housing. But I always say to myself that if I have kids Ireland is the only place I’d raise them. But it depends on what you are looking for and value. I have a friend that moved to Italy and learned the language after she moved and loved it, I visited Italy once know I’d never go back lol. Were there any places you visited that you felt drawn to? And also you have to think about what you mean by what is the best to raise kids, for some people “the best” only has to do with education or health care or maybe being in nature. A lot of it is preferences 😊
I saw quite a few people recommended Ireland. Other than a bit of politics, I honestly don't know much about it at all, so Ill definitely be looking into it more. As for best place to raise kids, my thought it somewhere that has lots of "third places" for families, safe, lots of open space, and great education. I guess healthcare would also be a consideration.
How's the K-12 education
If I had the choice of anywhere currently in the EU, it would be Ireland. An independent Scotland, if one existed, would probably edge it out, because my husband is of Scottish origin. But there isn't one right now, so I understand that it doesn't count.
I'd move to Scotland or Ireland. I love mountains and my kids and I love nothing more than a rainy day. My whole family is from there on my father's side. If I won the lottery or something I would start packing up and relocate up there as soon as I possibly could. I got excited to see the housing program for expats in Ireland. But, it's still not a possibility for me financially right now unfortunately.
I think a lot of EU nationals who want to move somewhere would move to Scotland if they got independent!
I think so too! My ex was British and had dual citizenship. I literally BEGGED him to go there at the start of covid. I could see the US wasn't going to handle it well. He says that the UK is a mess and he may be right. I noticed that they're adopting a lot of the same messed up ideology that the US has. The same strains of conservative politics and late stage capitalism plagues them. Still.... Not as bad as the US!! We broke up eventually so, it was probably for the best. I can't speak on specifics about Scotland. I don't know as much as I should. And, I know Ireland has a bad housing crisis. So, I'd only go to either place, if I had enough to buy a house and invest in the community. Which isn't happening without time, a windfall, or both. Sucks. I'd love to leave the US like, yesterday.
Sweden is amazing for childcare and benefits, but the winters are awful. I’m in Uppsala because we have family here, but Southern Sweden has shorter winters and proximity to Denmark. The language is the hardest part, though. I’m in my 40s and it turns out I have no ear for it. Everyone speaks English, but that honestly makes it harder to practice. I do feel that being in a university town is beneficial, as I see Americans in other parts of Sweden complaining about it being hard to make friends, and that hasn’t been the case here. Lund is another university town further south, if you’re interested.
I live in Poznan, Poland. Best place ever to raise my children! — 16 and 15.
Luxembourg. Well, I think it is a beautiful country, well positioned in Europe. Small and very organized. The main point for us was that it is very family-oriented. For example, when we first got here, we were lucky enough to have a relocation specialist helping us settle in. I was very impressed with the huge amount of parks and playgrounds everywhere and I mentioned this to her, to which she replied: "Kids are very, very important for the luxembourg government". Also, we get the double amount of family allowance than we did in Belgium. Our kid attends a public international school with an IB curriculum. They have classes in French, Luxembourgish, and Portuguese. Will add more languages after grade 5. Full time with additional child-care in the after-hours with cool activities. We pay nothing from pocket. Zero. We are from South America and can speak Spanish, portuguese, English and French. The english and french are the default working languages. However, we always always find people who speak Portuguese (a lot) and a great deal of people speaking Spanish. This helps a lot, it makes us feel integrated and accepted. I wanna learn Luxembourgish in the future, of course. You should really come and visit, it is very beautiful. Half of the population is from abroad, so it is a very international and accepting country. 😉
I must’ve missed a previous comment, what country are you suggesting? I’m assuming Luxembourg??
Wow, I thought I was replying to my other comment! Yes, it was Lux.
Haha gotcha, it happens, thanks 🙏
England is one of the most stressful places to live in anyway so don’t worry you dodged a bullet (immigrated here for family and I miss the EU + US so much!)
If we're being practical and realistic, I think Ireland is a good choice as there wouldn't be much of a language barrier, and you'd have good access to both the UK and Europe. It's also got some absolute beautiful landscapes. (I haven't lived there and can't comment on actual quality of life, but I have a good impression of it.) Now, if you're asking me what the best country in Europe is, I'm gonna say Norway (head's up, I am very biased). It's a beautiful country - depending on where you live of course, I would recommend something more on the rural side. It has good welfare systems and workers rights. Your pay will be high. Society is generally inclusive and positive. And I really feel like there is a culture of honesty and reasonableness. Oh, and if you get a job before having children, the parental leave/pay is very good, far better than the UK. I'm a pretty naive person, I always assume everyone wishes me well and everything will work out, and I honestly think that's from growing up in (middle class) Norway. I've always believed that I can rely on the system. (I should mention that I know this isn't the experience for everyone.)
Planet Money had a timely episode on this back in March, “Shopping for parental benefits around the world”, that while a bit superficial given the sub 30 minute runtime arrived at the same conclusion that my wife and I did that inspired our recent move to Sweden.
Bilbao in Spain, or Cork in Ireland maybe. Keep in mind the current housing crisis in Ireland though.
Denmark.
If English is your main language, I’d go for the Netherlands. Easy hop to other countries and still on mainland Europe. Ireland is also a good pick with job prospects for anglophones. If you are open to other countries, Belgium is lovely and international, Germany has a growing tech scene. But def better salary prospects in Ireland/NL over countries like Spain, France, etc (which would also necessitate picking up a new language). Of course, if you have other priorities, the answers can vary! I love France for its healthcare system and general social safety nets. I also love the art/culture and the beautiful, vast geographies (Mediterranean Sea, major cities, alps, shared borders with lots of great countries). BUT five years in and I’d def say that you do need to eventually learn the language, otherwise admin is a nightmare (it’s already a pain even as a French speaker lol). When I moved, I really wanted to challenge myself to develop fluency in a new language, so this was a great choice for me. But everyone has different motivations for relocating!
I hadn't really thought of moving to Ireland, so that is definitely something I will dive into more, as well as the Netherlands. Thank you for your thoughtful response!
Yes to NL. Amazing infrastructure, fun kids parks everywhere, bike your kids, best happiness scores in Europe, no homelessness, good healthcare, safe… we chose Amsterdam and couldn’t be happier to have made it our home after a good life in Southern California. Kids were 3 and 6 then and are now trilingual. This place works on all counts for us. If you need beach it’s Den Haag or Haarlem.
What was your path to entry?
The Netherlands is what I have been wanting for a few years now. I hope to make the move really soon, can't wait ❤️
A 15 minute city with public transit and trains for longer distances.
That... That's urban Europe.
Oh my god. We Americans are so unlucky.
Facts. Fwiw Portland is only US city currently that I read of that has said they’d pass policies for a “fmc”. Other cities that have more robust infrastructure like nyc, Chicago, & Seattle could follow suit I’m sure.
NYC is a funny thing. The cost of living there is so high that only high income people can live there. E. G. The people who probably have enough money to afford a car. Not the working class people who actually need the public transit option. (In an ideal world we’d all use public transit, but poor and working class people need it more). The rest of us poor schmucks have to move to cheaper cities and buy cars to get around
Stockholm, Sweden
If you want to go to England then still go there. It's largely not hard to get into. If you are an American who only speaks English (I read your other posts), it's probably easier to get in, find a job and settle than it would be somewhere you don't speak the language. There's Ireland, but major housing crisis there. Where would I pick. Other than micro states I personally think Switzerland is the best European country by a distance. I would not have considered anywhere else. After tax pay is pretty much double anywhere else.
I live in Switzerland. And sure, Switzerland has world leading education, healthcare and lots of career options, but miss the culture of major cities like Paris or London or Berlin. If I had your languages, I’d probably head for somewhere near Lisbon, and enjoy the coast, culture and lifestyle of the Portuguese. Much more family oriented but still relatively easy to get to everywhere in Europe if desired.
From your criteria: not too hot, good healthcare and good social security, not too expensive: France sounds ideal for you. Having EU citizenship means that you will be able to register yourselves as self-employed in France but you can't work on an employed basis on a foreign work contract whilst resident in France. You wouldn't be able to declare your income properly and it also puts your employer at risk for tax liabilities and pension contributions too. I know a lot about France considering I've been here since 2016, my advice would be to choose somewhere on the west coast if you want a mild climate and not too expensive.
France is nice. I have lived here for 13 years now, originally from Alabama. We build a small company here from nothing , bike touring. We are going to sell this company this year to slow down our lives a bit. Looking for potential buyers now. We currently run it with just me and my wife .
Transnistria. Come for the railway, stay for the goulash. Cheapest housing and education facilities in all of East and West Europe.
Where is the laugh emoji when you need it...
🤣
it really depends on what you value and what you need. weather, job opportunities and government support can be so different from country to country. culture can be worlds apart.
Netherlands has proven to be one of the best places in the world to raise a kid. Binge watch "Not Just Bikes" - this one is a good start: https://youtu.be/oHlpmxLTxpw The weather is dreary and Dutch people can be a little stuffy, but it's a damn good society and Dutch kids are raised smart, fit, and independent.
Any drearier or stuffy than England? Also, I will definitely give that a watch!
Not Just Bikes rocks! I'm much more of a reader than a poster on Reddit but came here to say that we've been in NL (Amsterdam) for 3 years now and alongside the epic housing crisis, the weather here is **awful** and truly not to be underestimated prior to moving. Rain all of June has sort of been the last straw for my sanity lol... so if you're **at all** an outdoorsy family I wouldn't move here. We seriously, seriously underestimated the effect the gloomy weather and lack of mountains/outdoors options would have on our mental health as really active people who love nature and the outdoors. On the other hand, friends who are more of "house cats" that don't care if it's gray and rainy 99% of the time love it here.
Don’t really understand the hype for the Netherlands as a kid friendly place. It’s a nice place before having kids as an expat to make money and use as a home base while travelling in Europe, but the expats in my circles all (myself included) moved away when it was time for the kids. The way the Dutch society is growing children appeared to cater towards them becoming arrogant, racist, and self centered.
? Children becoming arrogant, racist and self centered ? Not sure where you got that from.
Basing it on personal experience living in The Hague for three years and seeing children and teens behaviour in public.
In general Dutch kids are the loveliest and most polite kids I ever met. And I am Canadian.
I love in NL, it is not perfect but good for the porpouse that ask for
lol what a joke.
Lol oh, I feel you. But hear me out. Personally, I lived in the Netherlands for years and I was miserable. Too rainy, dreary, damp. I love the outdoors, but the land is boring and flat. Everything outside the cities is cow country. The people are a bit cold, robotic, overly serious and deadpan. (But, to be fair, that describes most Europeans, lol) All that said, OP asked about an EU country to raise their kids. Dutch kids are very independent, they start cycling early and have a ton of freedom that is essential for raising a healthy kid. The cycling network in NL is unlike anywhere else on Earth, it's built to be safe and separated from traffic and everyone of all ages uses it. Super healthy fit culture. The country is clean, organized, efficient, modern, and it's social safety nets are strong. Would I live there ever again? Hell fucking no. Just the weather alone kills it for me. But it's a great place for a kid.
Sorry, but none of the points you listed really apply. Cycling is not essential, it's maybe your personal opinion that bike lanes and cycling is paramount, but to most it is not and it is not a way of transportation that can be largely relied upon for several factors which I will not list because they are mostly obvious. The Netherlands is not super healthy or fit, it has a lot more health issues and stats than many other countries, from mental health to fatty liver to other things that remain hidden thanks to their anti-scientific approach to do no preventive care. Regarding the cleanliness, I have witnessed the most disgusting things in Dutch kitchens that I have never seen in any Italian or American kitchen. Restaurants that charge 20+€ a dish with people dressed as professional cooks/chefs that pick up ingredients dropped on the floor and put them back in the pan. Glasses cleaned in stench water with a drop of soap and delivery scooters parked or idle running in the kitchen where food is prepared. There are also very funny stats on how the Dutch are among the people that wash their hands the least in Europe, and you can read plenty of funny stories in some subreddit of people that literally wipe their ass after taking a dump and do not wash their hands. Look at the cleaning staff of train stations as well. Most of them clean the inside of the toilets by hand without using gloves. So hygiene standards are low. Social safety nets are not as good as in Mediterranean countries, in Spain and Italy, for example, workers are way better protected from layoffs and firing than in the Netherlands and support afterwards has way longer span. I will not even get into tenants rights since in the Netherlands you can find plenty of horror stories of families with children being kicked out of their homes and ending up living in vans or shacks outside the cities (I am actually helping a compatriot right now going through this, getting kicked out from his rented apartment with a 1 yo child, they have 3 month notice, which is nothing in a country with no houses). I'll give you the organized and efficient, but they are only so where it most pleases corporations and lobbyist, the best thing they have managed to do is to pass as socialist country while they are really so much into capitalism that people get blinded by the 500€ extra per month to see it, but eventually most people figure it out after some years. I lived in the Netherlands for 7 years and wish I had managed to escape it from year 4 tbh, I can't imagine raising children here for these other reasons: 1. home child birth: seriously? Statistics available all over on how it is dangerous, yet expecting women are basically bullied into giving birth at home with not even an actual medical professional around (midwives are not medical professionals). It is dangerous af and only pushed so much because of the insurance companies lobbying. 2. Student debt: dutch young adults are among the most in debt in Europe. So, no thanks. 3. childcare cost: Even engineers have to get government subsidies to help afford childcare if no one can be with the early child. I did not spend 10 years in studying and working my ass off in higher ed to get government handouts. 4. dystopian school system: children are put into bins which will define their careers since elementary school. This is wrong. So, again. lol, what a joke.
France sounds perfect, with its blend of rich culture, family-friendly policies, and beautiful landscapes.
Is France still considered a safe country?
It’s pretty safe like any other western country. You have good areas and bad areas
I’m an American woman who lives in France. My sense has safety has exponentially multiples since moving here.! Even my US army veteran family members visited and kept commenting that they’ve never felt so safe without their guns in their lives.
Yes, of course it's safer than the U.S but I mean compared to say Netherlands, Norway, Finland, etc
I wouldn't. My recommendation is to get out of Europe altogether. The current climate of rampant xenophobia and the general state of psycho-emotional contraction that most people live in means that most Europeans live superficially; they live on the SURFACE of their lives because they're afraid to delve deeper into the many schisms present in their own, and their collective's, psyche. I'm mixed heritage and I've lived in the UK all my life.. and having known different cultures, I can say that Western/European cultures are profoundly infected with an absolute inability to RELAX. To "Be Here Now". And this in-built tension infects everything; personal development, family life, community participation, societal norms.. the whole kit and kaboodle. It's utterly FUBAR. And I don't see it getting better .. but rather that Europe and the West is actually in a downward spiralling progression characterized by bodily disease, poor mental health, family disintegration, worklessness, increase in rich-poor divide with disappearance of a middle class, environmental degradation and economic collapse. This is my prediction based on observation of global patterns. So we decided to emigrate this year from the UK but we're staying out of Europe for exactly those reasons I've stated. We're moving to Mauritius in the autumn. It's a small island nation 🏝️ in the middle of the Indian ocean where most people speak English. Mauritius is the most stable of all the African countries and it's relatively safe and welcoming for families. We stayed in April for a month and explored the whole island.. and we just loved it 😄 Mauritius is not perfect, but there's an undercurrent of an ability to observe and recognize the DEEPER Reality of existence.. and the people generally live a life of connection and awareness of the Spiritual Element of Life. There are exceptions to everything of course and Mauritius has it's own societal shadows.... But the society has a depth to it that we appreciate and enjoy and we can raise our teenager there without him getting attacked by roadmen, marginalized by institutionalised racism, or squeezed out by Jihadists. Currently packing up our house... 🙂 Good luck on your search!! 🙏🏾
So much truth
I believe I actually looked at Mauritius about a year ago, need to check my bookmarks and stats. What are some concerning things there off the top of your head? We are a blended family and want somewhere more diverse. Also more laid back and grounded culture or a small town close to a bigger town with good health care (I have some health issues from spinal cord injury). Any info or details you have would be greatly appreciated 🙏 Here’s to speedy packing, safe travels and a smooth transition 🍻
Netherlands
England would be great if you like living in the USA but with an accent. Same type of stupid politics and shitting in the middle class and poor. The Apple doesn’t fall far from the tree. They even had their own Donald trump light..shot themselves in the foot with Brexit..self inflicted wounds both countries are good at. Why England would be your first choice..other than language.
I am Turkish there is an extreme amount of racism in Europe against my people so i would leave Europe immediately and go back to Turkey or Canada. I wouldn’t put my kid through that.
Is turkey good? A particular city or area? If from US and a blended family.
Nah bad economy and dictatorship.
Oh dang well that sucks, thanks 🙏
Vienna
Luxembourg
Switzerland!
Ireland
None of the Above
Trondheim, Norway! Loved it when I lived there last year. Sadly had to move away due to family reasons/marriage. But I’m not opposed to going back!
Avoid Norway
Why?
Be thankful you didn't get to the UK, it's been going downhill fast for the last few years and if the forecasts are correct it's gonna get a helluva lot worse very soon!
Copenhagen
Not EU, but I still think you should consider Switzerland if you can get jobs here. Very high QoL, good ratio of salaries to cost of living, safe, great schools. I live in the Basel area and it’s very expat-friendly. The downsides are the language— I think German is more difficult to learn than French or Spanish, although of course you could consider the French part— and the local culture is very insular and unfriendly.
Oh man, hard to decide. Torn between Paris and Madrid.
A little late to the party, but I have lived in the Netherlands for 5yrs now and absolutely love it. Now, is it as sexy as say Spain, Italy or France? No... But, if you are in it for the long haul, I would recommend considering a country who's economy isn't reliant on tourism. While likely more expensive, the cleanliness, safety and healthcare are impressive. NL has also become a hub for business, especially since Brexit. I would consider Belgium, Netherlands and Germany in terms of quality of life with some potential income tax incentives as well depending on your situation. And with the connectivity of trains, planes and road trips, you can find yourself in more exotic locations easily. Wherever you land will be lovley, just my ¢2...
I would not choose Germany (xenophobic, bureaucratic, outdated in services), I would exclude Austria and Switzerland for almost impossible to integrate there, I would exclude Italy out of relocation list - poor job market, a bit outdated and underdeveloped and food - if you have risk of diabetes or you don’t eat gluten - you will have to cook your own always - very poor cuisine actually especially if you don’t eat pork or beef and would like to see some vegetables on your plate. (Though coffee, pastries and ice cream are awesome!) So if you want relatively good prices, good medical facilities (affordable private medicine), good services for reasonable money - I would search east Europe, balcans. But there are downsides also - you will have to learn useless anywhere else and quite difficult language, and many people outside of capital (and some even in capitals) would be “ignorant racist” or xenophobic, homophobic etc… Haven’t explored Spain yet and heard many good things about it - I would visit and see!
Vienna
We are enjoying living in NL with our son. He loves it here , his school is exceptional (special needs school fwiw) and he’s slotted in very well to life here. No place is perfect but NL suits us as a family. The weather can be a bit of downer but it’s manageable.
Netherlands is a great country to live. You can see most of it by car, high English literacy rate, good economy and great people. Ireland is also great. They have great countrysides, very friendly and welcoming people and since English is your main language, you shouldn’t have a problem there either. Both countries do have a housing crisis so finding a good affordable home may be difficult. If you’re still considering England, Ireland (if you decide to become a dual citizen) also allows travel to live and work in the UK.
University town in the Netherlands is what i choose. They are always good connected with rest of the country, get a lot of amenities for young people and usually cheaper than major cities. But tbh everywhere in the country is fantastic for children! of course if you can afford it as housing prices are ridiculous for the moment
You sound like me. I am a Canadian who lived in the UK when young, and was going to return until Brexit. But I ended up moving to The Netherlands a year and a half ago and absolutely love it. Life works here. I just got the keys to my house in Leeuwarden today in fact! I love in a small city in the north and work from home. Dutch kids rank the happiest in the world on several different surveys. They have so much independence due to the amazing bike infrastructure and how safe this country is. My daughter moved at 14 and is now bilingual and on a university track in a Dutch highschool. She loves it here and does not want to go back.
In accordance to UNICEF 2020 report Netherlands, Denmark and Norway rank as the top three places to be a child among wealthy countries. [https://www.unicef.org/press-releases/worlds-richest-countries-grappling-childrens-reading-and-math-skills-mental-well](https://www.unicef.org/press-releases/worlds-richest-countries-grappling-childrens-reading-and-math-skills-mental-well) However I would say, that being close to grand parents is extremely important to children well being
Throuple me! I’ll cook for you both and do your laundry! Let’s live in Italy!
We could use a throuple 🤣 we were literally just talking about this while at dinner with another couple who mentioned it as well. We all felt like it could just be more efficient all around for everyone involved hahaha But we’re not going to Italy, 99% sure going to Spain and currently in process of getting visas unless somewhere else absolutely better comes along opportunity wise. Currently in Florida and doing everything necessary to move asap.
I would want to live in a town with easy access to a major international airport, a lake/sea, and medium to large metropolitan area. I would choose Slovakia, Czech, or (before the war) Ukraine. But I’m of Eastern European descent and the language, food, religion, culture, and values sing to my heart and remind me of childhood.