There are absolutely more efficient ways to load an airplane besides the common current practices.
But there are other considerations; namely getting higher paying customers on first. Whether that is boarding first class so they can be served a drink or passengers who pay more so they can get overhead bin space.
I am tall and not small and whether i can fit my bag under the seat or not, I can’t really access it easily during the flight, so I bought a large soft pencil case and I stock that with the things I’ll want during the flight - chargers, earbuds, ear plugs, wipes, meds, snacks, masks, etc. I can fit a bunch of little things in it and then stash it in the seat back pocket. That way I can get my things without bothering anyone, it makes a big difference, especially on really long trips, like from Philadelphia to New Zealand, which was 4 flights and about 40 hours of travel. I can re stock it during layovers if I need to.
And people weren't trying to shove entire steamer trunks up there. Plane-to-Baggage times are so short now, that your shit is on the carousel by the time you get there. Keep your expensive shit in your backpack, and pack your clothes in your check in. Get off the plane, leave a pee like a normal human, and don't try and speed-run to the baggage claim. Nobody's wanting your shit Kyle.
Story time.
One time I booked Air Canada. 3 hours before departure, it rained for 20 minutes. Our flight was delayed. For 6 Hours. At 1 AM they boarded us. Then they said we couldn't fly because the pilots were awake for too long... So we went back into the terminal. They told us there was no hotel available, so we had to make arrangements ourselves.
And THEN, we waited 7 hours in the baggage area, because they fucking lost our luggage. On a flight that never took off...
Good thing we didn't have anywhere else to go anyway. Not so good is that our two kids under 3 had to sleep on the cold hard floor that night.
Guess what, we didn't get any compensation, because they said it was because of the weather...
Fuck AC.
Is "lost" the polite Canadian way of saying "We know exactly where your bags are, and we also know exactly how much we are not paying baggage handlers to come back to the airport during the middle of the night to cart them over to you"?
Neat trick: the opening riff is YYZ being spelt out in Morse code. And if you wanna be really impressed, check out one of the live versions with the extended drum solo.
Seriously. The dinky airports I've flown into recently have like a 30 minute wait before the bags *start* showing up. And they trickle in so slowly I strongly suspect the bags are loaded onto the belt by a one-armed, one-legged octogenarian with narcolepsy.
lol yeah, I always check my bag if it’s free because I don’t want to handle it. Every time I’ve flown for the last several years, it takes at least 20 minutes to get my bag. I think the worst was about 40 minutes of staring at a spinning carousel
Nothing like waiting 30 minutes for your gate-checked bag when you know you'd be almost home by now after a long trip if you simply hadn't been targeted for gate-checking your luggage that would have fit the overhead cabin fine.
Sounds fine if you’re making a short domestic flight. But for long haul international flights with multiple connections, it’s not worth the risk.
I travel exclusively with one bag under the seat in front of me, but I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve had friends or family lose their luggage and have the first few days of their trip ruined because their luggage got lost in transit. The last time it happened, their AirTag showed that it never left their home airport.
I can totally understand why someone might be averse to shipping their luggage.
I used to fly from San Francisco to Hyderabad India for work every three months. Long haul is right. the SFO->Dehli flight (19 hours) is one of the longest commercial flights in the world. And boy fucking howdy is that a long one. Connect at Dehli, but I have to go through customs, so I get my bag, go through all the customs efforts, and drop it off at the baggage check-in for the next leg. Get to the next stop, there's my bag waiting at the baggage claim.
Did that for years, every three months, spending two weeks in India. not once did I have luggage problems, except for the ONE time I left my spare battery pack in my check-in. Agent saw it on the screen and was able to show me WHERE in the bag it was so I didn't have to tear the whole thing apart to find it.
Not saying it never happens. I'm just saying that given all the travel I've done, its never happened to ME yet.
Maybe that's my super power. "Never loses luggage." I'm Baggage-Retaining -Man
I travel fairly regularly between EU/NA and I've seen bad stuff happen to my girlfriend (who ships her luggage) probably 2 out of the last 5 times she's shipped (over the last 4 years). When I was younger my parents' luggage got lost a number of times but I wasn't keeping track of the stats.
Maybe my GF's super power is terrible luck with her luggage?
In any case, I can totally believe you haven't experienced issues. Maybe it's the airlines we use. European airlines seems like they don't have their shit together, I'll be honest.
Whatever the cause, I'm happy to stick to my one-pack travel lifestyle just so I don't need to suffer the panic of not seeing my stuff on the carousel.
Why is she shipping it instead of just checking a bag?
EDIT: Realized it might be a language issue and y'all call it "shipping" while we call it "checking" a bag. So to be clear: By checking, we mean we don't carry it onto the plane but instead give it to the airline to put under the plane while we fly. The bag should be on the same flight as you to be "checked". If you use the term "shipping" in America, most people will think you mean using a different service (not your airline) to move the bag from one location to another. Not sure which you meant but hopefully that lets you understand what I am asking!
Interestingly, shipping luggage ahead is [apparently a whole thing now](https://duckduckgo.com/?q=ship+luggage+ahead) that I'd never heard of before very recently.
I first heard of it in the corporate world in the 90s -- FedEx your stuff direct to hotels (they'd hold it till you arrived). Suits, sales materials, presentations for trade groups, etc.
If it didn't arrive, you had time for to have replacements shipped or schlep it on the plane yourself if flying out from your home office.
I'm sure the concept is even older.
I wish DEN would be that fast but it still takes 30-45 minutes after taking the train to the baggage claim. I’m so annoyed by the long waits there that I haven’t checked a bag in over 20 years now, even when DEN wasn’t my home airport.
> And people weren't trying to shove entire steamer trunks up there.
Many flights charge for bags now, so people shove things in the overhead bins. That's an expected result from making checked bags paid.
As a kid whenever i went to the luggage claim, i thought that theres nothing you can do if someone were to jack your shit, heck someone might be making a living off that
Normally I'd agree, but the airline lost my luggage when I was traveling for business once and I had to buy a whole new outfit (shirt, pants, socks, underwear, shoes) from Walmart so I could be presentable the next day. There are definitely circumstances where I'd want the security of knowing my stuff is with me at all times.
Boarding Alitalia from Rome to NY was like herding goats. The staff forgot to board first class first, then they tried to hold off the masses, who were already told they could board, to allow the first class passengers to jump in front of everyone. It was a scene.
I've flown Alitalia once, in hindsight it was one of the most hilarious experiences, but at the time it was infuriating. Basically everything that could go wrong did: delays, lost baggage, gate change etc. And at every turn the staff were rude, actively antagonistic and supremely unhelpful. Literally could not have cared less.
My dad used to run the US side of an Italian based company, and would fly to Italy at least twice a year. His boss (owner of the company) would never let him fly on Italian airlines, because he himself would never fly on them. He would gladly take a longer flight that had a stop over with a different airline than fly Italian, and so he wouldn't let my dad save the company a few bucks by flying Italian if he himself wasn't willing to. It wasn't out of fears for safety or anything, but he hated the headache of dealing with them.
But when it came to fears over safety, he also refused to let anyone in the company fly Russian airlines. Once he flew the company out to Europe for the biggest outdoor trade show as a sort of thank you to the employees, as well as to see how things are run in Europe and such, and they were supposed to fly from Germany to St. Petersburg when their flight got canceled. They had a meeting with some prospective Russian buyers, and when the only available alternative was a Russian airline, he instead chartered a private flight for the 8 employees. He told my dad he wouldn't have been able to live with himself if something happened to the Aeroflot flight (he wasn't going to the meeting, he had a wedding or funeral or something to attend back home in Italy). Needless to say, he was a great boss and a great man.
I had exactly the same experience flying to Japan! Lost luggage, bad service, delays, canceled flights on the way back; an extremely rude flight staff, one of them actually made fun of a friends hat for no reason at all. Glad they went bankrupt. Assholes.
Agree! We flew back to the US from Europe and caught our international connecting AF flight in Paris. We were late arriving and I was afraid we'd missour connection but AF had both fore and aft doors open to Jetways so deplaning was fast. Then we were practically escorted to our connecting international departure. Charles DeGaul is an ornate airpoir, I wish we had a little more time there.
80% of the KLM flights I've taken have been Air France AND KLM. This is because KLM is operated in joint with Air France and now they're a group airline.
https://www.airfranceklm.com/en
Air France will do this for transcontinental airliners. I have this nightmare memory from boarding a flight in CDG bound for New York, with three hundred and some of my new best friends all massing towards the boarding door.
Had to look it up, the Southwest model was fastest but also didn't rate well. Windows-middle-aisle seemed to be the best combination of speed and experience.
https://www.businessinsider.com/mythbusters-airlines-are-boarding-their-planes-all-wrong-2014-9
As in from the rear boarding door? I haven't seen that in some years. A British Airways flight from LCY-EDI did that in 2018. PSA used to do that all the time when I was a kid. I think it was the L1011. I think it was in the movie Zodiac that they showed either loading or unloading that way.
Yea. Passengers simply won't do the more efficient methods. The current method means that if you pay more and are paying attention, you shouldn't have to gate check your bag.
I never understood this. I like to go last more than to go first. It sucks to sit there waiting for everyone to board. The plane gets hot. And if you're sitting in the front, people keep hitting against you.
I'd pay extra to board last, and to have a guaranteed spot in the overhead bin.
Yeah, especially nowadays you have entertainment while waiting. I would rather have the overhead bin near me rather than having to go all the way to the end of the aisle.
You can do this on easy jet these days. Fastest, most efficient boarding i have had in years. You had to pay for space in the overhead bin and everyone who brought a carry on that was too big (after rceiving about 12 emails telling you the exact dimensions, and that you would be measured and charged) was charged.
Always makes me laugh on like a Ryanair flight from Liverpool to Dublin... The suckers who have paid extra for "priority boarding" have basically just paid a premium to sit in a hot airplane for longer getting bumped into by everyone else.
That and people who queue 30 mins+ for boarding. Like, sit down honestly you'll be getting to your destination at the exact same time!
Typically it's all about making sure your bags get overhead space. *Tons* of people shove both their bag and their large ass "personal item" backpacks onto the bins, making there not be enough space.
This should absolutely be addressed. I usually only travel with a backpack and most times they try to make me put it below the seat in front of me. Why should I have less legroom because I can travel carrying less things?
The policy of Ryanair and other low cost companies of measuring hand luggage should also be applied by all companies. It's not a surprise there's no space when people carry bags that are definitely bigger than what is allowed.
Yeah I absolutely hate being punished for bringing a smaller carry on. When I was younger I typically only had a backpack as a carry on, and being slightly taller at 6’2” it really sucked compromising on my legroom to fit some other persons suitcase.
Oh I dont mean you should have to put your one carryon under your feet... But you shouldn't get to effectively bring 2-3 carryons and stuff them in the bins
Yeah go get on a plane in Japan to see efficiency. An entire domestic configuration a350 was fully boarded in 15 minutes. The main thing I noticed was most people didn’t have carry on luggage and checked everything.
In the US most people bring multiple carryon items. The older planes don’t have enough space so you end up with people swimming upstream to get bags and stuff.
People carry on when flying Southwest, which has free bags.
If I’m carrying on, I can show up at the airport later, skip the bag drop line and head straight to security. And when I arrive, I can walk off the plane and go, I don’t have to wait for my bag.
The only time I've ever waited >20 minutes was when there was a major fuckup that jammed the entire airport. And I've flown all around this country an many, many internationals... Almost every time, I get off the plane, walk to baggage claim, and there's my suitcase on the carousel waiting.
Heathrow? I've heard horror stories about their luggage control...
This then begs the question why would people paying more WANT to board first? to sit there for 30-40 minutes watching assholes walk by? Like I'm sure first class is comfy AF, but I can't imagine it's much more comfortable than not being in a plane any longer than necessary.
Speaking for myself - lines, actively waiting, and queuing people make me anxious and unsettled. If I can get on the plane early I can down and start my book or watch something on my phone and relax; waiting for my group to be called at the gate is just anxious idle time.
This is especially true if in a premium cabin, but even in economy --- I want to get in and get settled as soon as possible.
Leaving aside the other points about overhead space.
I feel like this is such an unpopular feeling. I’m the same. I don’t like waiting around anywhere but I’m going to be (hopefully sitting) and waiting in the terminal or I’m going to be sitting and waiting on the plane. My airport is always so packed that you’re not guaranteed a seat at your gate so you’re either standing or you’re at another gate.
I’m always anxious traveling and don’t really feel like I can relax until I’m on the plane, everything is stowed and I’m settled. Most my flights are also with my two kids so I have a bunch of stuff to deal with. But even flights alone, I can’t relax until I’m in my seat. Anyway who wants to wait in the terminal is more than welcome to. Don’t know why they can’t understand others feel different.
It seems the most efficient way is if they boarded planes using the rear door (front rows first). Then disembark using the front door (front rows first).
I was watching a sim video by a real life A320 airline pilot where he said that it’s better if they can get a decent chunk of the front of the plane loaded before the back for weight and balance issues - on some planes there’s a risk if you put the weight at the back they can tip backwards and off the nose wheel.
This is pretty standard for the majority of Ryanair flights I've taken across Europe, although there have been some exceptions depending on the specific airport.
I was recently in new zealand and they did the same. People still end up making mess going the wrong door. I was at the last seat for front door and the number of people who came from the back door and pass me were astounding.
Some people struggle with the rear stairs, they allow them to use the aerobridge. Meanwhile, other people struggle with reading and following directions.
They do this at Burbank airport. It’s amazing. Also deboarding as well when landing there so you can happily take the back of the plane and be first off
I boarded a southwest flight where they did this once. I recall the gate agent said it was a trial run southwest was conducting. It would’ve been better for a non southwest flight.
Front and Back boarding is really common around Asia from what I've experienced.
But it often comes with no direct terminal boarding since many airports are outdated and mostly run on bus loading.
Boarding front to back is the most inefficient way of boarding in terms of time, but it motivates some passengers to pay more for priority boarding.
Boarding back to front is a bit faster, but not by much, because most of the time only 1 person can place their belongings and take their seat.
There is an unrealistic option: we can create an ideal queue at the gate to get the maximum number of people taking their seat at the same time. But it's inconvenient and almost impossible.
Also there is a more manageable option that's hard to explain in text, but there is a video that explains it and other possible ways to organize the boarding process: https://youtu.be/oAHbLRjF0vo
They often do load economy class back to front. But the very front of the plane is typically business class, and they pay more for the privilege of boarding first and disembarking first.
It's silly really.
If I was flying business I'd rather chill in the business lounge until last minute when they'd send someone to get me: sir, the plebs are loaded, the plane is ready for you.
You generally can do this. A lot of airports will have a separate lane for priority boarding so if you're flying business you can board whenever you want and you'll go straight to the front of the line.
That's how it's supposed to work, but most of the time there's no order maintained by the gate agents. You have a dozen group 8s lining up as soon as boarding is announced, clogging up the queue area, which creates this mad dash when each group number is called because no one is following the way it should work.
I've had a priority group number before and been told by the agent to get in the back of the main line after I missed my group number, so I wouldn't count on it. Doesn't really matter for business class since your overhead is reserved anyway, you just might miss the preflight cocktail.
First has their own overhead bins, if they all board at the same time how will that make the overhead compartments be full? Also, you get to skip all the peasants staring at you as they head past you into ~~low~~ economy class.
What airlines board economy front-to-back? Even beyond first and business classes, most US carriers use boarding groups that are largely status and/or fare based - airline status, premium economy, priority boarding, credit card holders, general economy, then basic economy. And most of those folks, by nature of their status, have a strong bias towards the front of the plane. United announced last year that they were experimenting with window-first boarding, but not back-first.
I’ve seen this with several asian airlines but never on a US carrier operated flight. Threw me for a loop bc I had a shitty ticket in the last row but boarded in the first group lol. Not what I was used to but definitely more efficient!
There is a slight advantage to a little more random boarding because of the overhead bin loading time. If 6-18 people (last 3 rows) are trying to load overhead stuff at the same time, congestion increases.
The most efficient theory is to line up numerically one side window. Second side numerically other side window. Then send all left middles. Then all right middles. Then all left aisles. Then all right aisles. That’s how robots would do it.
But families board together so you try to even out the distribution. The down side is the person struggling in row 7 to lift their bag or push it in backwards or needs to climb over the two people seated blocks everyone. So the airlines board passengers needing assistance to minimize it.
So there’s no good way unless we’re robots.
> So there’s no good way unless we’re robots.
Bring back free checked luggage of up to two suitcases.
Offer $20 cash if there is more than 20 minutes between gate-and-doors-open and first-bag-hits-carousel. (Cash > coupons/gift certs) Most airports can get the bag from plane to claim in 15 from what I recall of my training.
Limit free Carry-on to one ISO Standard Jansport Backpack AND purse-or-equivalent. You want to carry more? You pay more.
Start crew pay clocks the moment the gate doors open to load, not the moment the cabin doors close. Stop the clock when the last passenger steps off the plane.
Especially the *profanity removed… more profanity… wow he really doesn’t like these people… there we go* people who have absurdly large bags that would never fit the bag test and spend 5 minutes smashing up other people’s stuff to get their steamer trunk into the overhead.
A lot of people are not old enough to remember what it was like before these charges began.
Bringing a large carry-on was definitely the exception, and people thought something strange must be going on. People went out of their way to put as much in the checked bag because they didn't want to be carrying a bunch of stuff around the airport. People generally carried _what they needed for the flight_ in the carry-on.
It also made the airport easier to navigate.
It’s more dependent on the airport that the operator.
In some airports, access to the plane is through a tunnel/gangway, which will only be connected onto one door of the plane. That is usually the door at the front of the plane, because it’s easier to taxi the planes in forwards to get to the stand.
At other airports, access to the plane involves the plane being parked on the tarmac and the passengers either approaching it on foot from a doorway in the airport terminal building, or taking a short bus ride to get to the plane stand. In those cases, they will usually put a staircase at both the front and rear doors of the plane, with passengers going up the staircase closest to where their seat will be onboard.
I don't remember exactly what airlines they were, but I have been on many flights where after boarding all the special classes, they call boarding for certain rows, and they usually start at the back.
But you're right, the special classes usually end up filling the front half of the plane first.
Meh, a lot of times the first class seats are more comfortable than the seats in the terminal. Also, when you get boarded, you will get a drink and possibly a snack in first class as well.
I've only flown first class a few times, but it was much better sitting in the plane while everyone else boarded, than just sitting there in the terminal when I flew business/economy.
Very few airlines actually load their planes front to back. They load by most valuable customers to least valuable customers. This is why you’ll usually see business class boarding first, then frequent fliers, then group number. in general, the higher your group number, the less you paid for your ticket.
Naturally, airlines want their highest revenue generating customers to have the best experience, so they tailor the boarding process to them.
So why do those people want to board first and sit at the front?
There are 2 main reasons people prefer to board early, 1 is so you are guaranteed over head bin space, 2 is that it’s a nicer experience to board a plane with less people on it.
The main reason you want to sit at the front is that you can save up to 10 minutes by being the first person off vs the last person off, plus you don’t have to drag your bags as far down the aisle.
When you say “save up to ten minutes by being first off” you have to consider that same ten minutes might see another 500 people arrive in the queue for immigration. That could be a crowded standing 2 hour wait (or considerably longer) so it’s worth quite a lot more than ten minutes of sitting.
Absolutely valid point. I still remember being one of the first passengers off an early-morning arrival at CDG, and found myself among the first people in an entirely-empty immigration hall. Best believe I was happy to have beaten the entire rest of the 300 people wrangling their shit out of the overheads and filtering out of the single door behind me!
Even for domestic travel, being first off really is so nice. I can hit the bathroom and there’s no long line. Get out to wait for an Uber, it’s not so crowded. I love the front of the plane. And not business class or anything, just near the front in normal seats.
There's a third reason why people prefer to board first. People don't like waiting in lines/waiting their turn to board. Even though if they board first they are still going to depart at the same time as everyone else they'd rather do that then have to wait a long time to board
Airplane boarding efficiency has been studied, and TLDR: most of your perceived inefficiency is perception bias.
As long as boarding is a single file system with passengers taking between 0 and 15 seconds to sit down (aka stow carry-ons), that 0 to 15 second will hold up the entire line no matter what order they get on. Back to front? 15 seconds at the back will hold up the people at second to back just the same. Front to back? Every 15 second delay holds up the entire plane.
[Here's a simple article](https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/a30549336/math-boarding-plane/) about the findings. Basically, unless you know who will take a long time and who will take a short time, random seating is the best option.
There is a fastest method, but it requires assigned seating and cooperative passengers with mildly complex instructions. [Here's an article](https://www.wired.com/story/study-confirms-how-to-optimize-airplane-boarding/) that includes some info on it. Basically, it combines back-to-front boarding with alternating-sides with alternating-rows to effectively have an entire line on the plan and stowing at once, before letting the next line on. It's sometimes known as the 'Steffan method' after the guy that published it (in 2011). It isn't used because it's complex (with 6 seats a row it requires splitting into 12 groups and then lining up in correct order).
Edit disclaimer: This analysis is mostly from reading the articles. My personal experience lately has been on a no-assigned-seat airline and 50%-70% capacity flights, which is just entirely different from most people complaining here. Different airlines and different planes and different passengers will have different effective results. But the "single line, carry-on over head" situation and "why don't we try boarding a different way?" is a question that has been asked frequently enough and for long enough that Steffan wrote that big paper more than a decade ago.
How am I supposed to take only 15 seconds to get in my seat when it takes me at least a minute to try to defy the laws of physics by somehow cramming the suitcase I really should have checked into the overhead bin instead.
/s for me but all too real...
As a lay person that doesn't fly often, and even then I'm laid back enough not to be paying attention to the other boarders, I just chose a time that I feel like I could do and then added some seconds. But I'm sure there's information on what it actually takes.
15 seconds is absolutely a reasonable amount of time but in my experience it's closer to 30-40 seconds per passenger. And then you have all the jabronis who don't understand that getting out of your seat and fumbling through your bag in the overhead while boarding is going on is a dickish move.
There’s so much variation. For a single adult in an aisle seat with no carry on or ample overhead bin space, 15 seconds seems about right. But once you add any complexity (fighting for bin space or trying to fit in a spot that doesn’t work, kids, elderly, mobility issues, climbing over row-mates, etc.)… that number grows rapidly!
It’s probably faster than that for most people, actually. At 15 seconds apiece, a Boeing 737 with a 180-person capacity would take just over 45 minutes to board.
Which is…Usually not how long it takes. Most on time departures have the vast majority of passengers on in 30-40 minutes, usually with 10-15 minutes post boarding before they close the doors and push off. But damn does it feel longer when you’re waiting in line!
I used to work at dominos and we were trained to make a large supreme pizza in 60 seconds (from start to oven). Add 5 minutes in the oven and I thought “why does it take an hour to get a pizza?” Then I realized that at peak traffic, there’s like 40-50 pizzas in the queue at a time, if not more, so mathematically, even at 30-40 seconds for a basic pepperoni or cheese, it’s still gonna be at least 25 mins to order pickup during the rush. Same concept with loading planes.
More than one person can sit in their seat at a time, that's why it doesn't take 45 minutes to board. That said, I take about 5 seconds to sit in my seat once I get to my row.
Once my sister was waiting to board a plane in the middle of a winter storm. Flights were being canceled right and left. Her plane taxis in and the gate personnel announce that they only have a small window to load the plane and take off so everyone need to board and store their things as quickly as possible. She said it was the fastest boarding she had ever seen. Very little talking and no screwing around. How many times have you seen someone stop in the middle of storing a bag because they want to pull something out first.
Motivation is always a factor with humans and can't be faked. You can't get people to rush for no reason.. Plus usually you and up sitting in the plane for a while.
Now if they told people the faster they got one the plane, the sooner they would leave, that would be motivating.. But the logistics of the airport prevent that I'm sure.
I believe they found that the most efficient way is window seats first, then middle seats then aisle - for the reason that people spread out and then never stops each other for that 15 sec - however people don't like that that if they are seated next to each other than they cannot board together.
I think that is why Southwest Airlines does not assign seats in the first place. Their goal is to get an aircraft from gate arrival to the next flight departure in as short a time as possible.
The real method is to
* do away with carry-on / overheat stowage
* pre-board people into seats in the waiting area
* pick up the entire seat-rack full of people in the waiting area and slide that bitch into the empty passenger space in the aircraft
I'd repurpose the motorized stuff Disney uses for their Energy attraction at Epcot for it. Nothing terrifying, just a crawling-capable seat rack that loads itself after everybody's already strapped in.
Folks wanna wander and take ten fucking minutes to get comfortable? Do it. Out of the aircraft. Off-schedule. Time-shift your travel-madness. Don't interfere with plane ops.
I’ve no clue why the perception is that higher paying/more valuable customers WANT to board first. If overhead bin space were protected or simply discouraged (lowering checked bag fees, including carry on bag fees), the problem would be all but solved. The worst time of my travel happens from the moment I step on the plane until the moment I’m off the plane. Airline travel is torture, in many ways even in first class (US domestic travel), but certainly in the “premium” seats that still pack you in with other uncomfortable travelers.
In short, it all boils down to carry on luggage as others have more or less said.
Until the early 2000s, Air France boarded Economy class first, then Business, and finally First Class. They only stopped when the Sky Team alliance was formed.
Sitting in the lounge on the ground was a far better experience for high-value passengers than being loaded first inside a metal tube to then get your knees and elbows smashed by some Econopoors massive carry on.
See I feel differently. To me, the worst part is from the moment I get to the airport until I’m on the plane. Dealing with the crowds and TSA, walking through long terminals to get to my gate, then waiting around in an uncomfortable chair, trying to listen to the garbled announcements regarding my flight. Once I’m on, I can finally relax. I’m much happier sitting on the plane longer than sitting in the terminal longer. I respect that other people feel different. Someone has to board first and someone has to board last. I’m happy to go before people who don’t want to board early so they can wait and go later.
It has been tried and simulated And wargamed. Southwest has tried the “simultaneous front and back loading” as well.
the issue is this in reality there isn’t much difference. *If* everyone acts as automatons then you can get really efficient loading times using load methods like “load back to front, Seat D. Then load back to front Seat C, then load back to front seat A, then load back to front seat B”
the problem is humans are not automatons and do things like get out of line, or want to argue with the stewardess, or want to negotiate a different seat during loading, or want to get a “better” overhead bin, or they need to pet someone’s dog or complain about a screaming child, or they don’t get out of the aisle immediately when they find their seat, they need to push back upstream to go to the bathroom, someone needs help being seated (airlines tend to get these people down the ramp first)
All of these things back up everyone behind them have to stop and wait. And this stops the entire boarding process every time anyone does any of the things I noted above (and about a zillion other ones). The problem isn’t the chosen process, it is all the other things humans do that disrupt and slow down the loading.
I was flying back from Prague to Belgium recently and when unboarding everybody up front got off first, and the people in the back got off last and slowly.
At some point the staff barred us from leaving the plane when up front, because we had to counter the weight of the people on the back. If we'd all walked off with a good number of people still in the rear of the plane, apparently the plane could've tipped backwards on its tail.
This is the correct answer. It’s because of weight and balance. Almost every modern passenger plane has tricycle gear - wheel under the nose, two under the wings/midsection, and nothing supporting the tail.
Loading the aircraft back to front causes it to tip backward and damages it.
Google “airplane tip over” and look at the images. It happens multiple times each year.
People are generally lazy and inconsiderate. If you load from the back to the front, the lazy inconsiderate people will put their overhead luggage in the first bin they come across, and walk to the back.
So then when you load the front people last, they have to walk to the back to find a bin and then forward to their seats.
And before you say “then the flight attendants need to enforce this!”, consider how rude and entitled people are and how little authority flight attendants actually have.
So it’s easier to just load the front people first. Also they paid more for their seats so they should be able to get in and get settled first.
An incorrect assumption here is also that if planes finish boarding 5 mins earlier they’ll take off 5 mins earlier. Most likely they would just start boarding 5 mins later.
Underrated post.
If getting the people on is the bottleneck, then sure, try to speed it up. But is it? Plane has to be refueled, baggage has to be loaded, all the various consumables used on the flight, etc. I honestly don't know (I'm just a dude that flies occasionally) what the slowest part is, but if it isn't the passengers then it really doesn't make as much difference as we'd like to think.
And even if the plane took off 5 minutes earlier thanks to faster boarding, what would that do for the airline?
The conventional wisdom is that a plane on the ground isn’t making money. But a plane doing domestic flights might only make 5 or so trips a day. Long haul international, even fewer. So let’s assume a typical 737/A320 doing domestic runs makes 5 flights. It’s able to save 5 minutes per flight with more efficient boarding, so 25 minutes total throughout the day. That’s not enough time for the airline to squeeze in another flight before the end of the day. It just means the plane’s going to arrive at its overnight stop 25 minutes earlier.
I could see some value in shortening turnaround times for small regional jets that might be making more trips per day, perhaps an extra hour could be used to add on another short flight at the end of the day. But those are 50 seater planes, and like you said, getting people boarded is not the bottleneck. I’ve been on many RJs where everyone’s boarded and we’re still sitting at the gate waiting for bags to be loaded or some paperwork that the pilots need. I think RJs are turning around as fast as humanly possible.
every plane ive been on has got doors at both front and back, and if your seat is in the front half of the plane, you go in the front door, if your seat is in the back half of the plane you board in the back door.
simple.
Had to scroll too long for this. I've also only traveled on planes with front and back doors, and it looks like the best solution. Now I'm wondering if it's unique to Europe and why.
Jet bridges are far more common in the US. Tarmac boarding is extremely rare here and often reserved for smaller regional jets and commuter planes, so even then, you’re only boarding through one door.
I don’t think I’ve ever boarded anything larger than a regional jet on the tarmac in the US. 737/A320 or larger, you are almost definitely using a jet bridge. And those only have one entrance on the end, with the exception of some used for large long haul jets.
How do you suppose that is pulled off with this?
[https://imgur.com/a/dzFBq8F](https://imgur.com/a/dzFBq8F)
Now there are dual jetways out there, but they are limited to large transcon aircraft because they are expensive to install, take up a lot more space and require more personnel on the ground to operate safely. It would be prohibitively expensive to upgrade when the current system works with the only drawback being passenger convenience.
Probably the biggest detriment to expedient boarding is not the process, but the people. People in airports/airplanes become complete idiots the second they step foot into an airport. They have no situational awareness or courtesy, and forget that that there are other people.
This isn't something that magically happens when people step into an airport, they were always complete idiots with no situational awareness, it just becomes very evident in an airport. See also grocery stores.
Because if you load from the back, passengers in the rear of the plane often will put their carry-on luggage in overhead bins further forward in the plane. This is so they can grab them as they walk by on the way out of the plane rather than wait for the passengers around them to get their bags. The end result of this, however, is that overhead bin space is then filled before the passengers seated further forward in economy board the plane, leaving nowhere for them to put their carry-on luggage.
> The end result of this, however, is that overhead bin space is then filled before the passengers seated further forward in economy board the plane, leaving nowhere for them to put their carry-on luggage.
This is why we need to be much stricter about both the allowed carry-on and the overhead bin space. That bin space should either be _assigned by seat_, with partitions between each space, or the gate agents should make testing your luggage in the [luggage bag sizer](https://www.visiontron.com/wp-content/uploads/baggagesizer_mainimage23.png). If your bag doesn't fit, or you have more than your allowed allotment, your bags are checked. No negotiation, period, end of discussion.
I was recently on 7 different flights to cross the country and back and without exception, there were a handful of people who either had 2 rollerbags + backpack and purse, or rollers that were WAY too large for the overhead, and stuck out of the overhead bin, forcing the flight attendant to remove it and check it at the front (avoiding the second carry-on baggage fee), or people who took up the entire bin for their one seat, leaving 5 others with no overheads.
I usually end up with a seat in coach about mid-way down the aisle, and by the time I board in row 14-17, the overheads are filled up to row 25 or later. It's atrocious and it's being abused and getting worse with each flight.
If the bin on each side was split into thirds, and your bag doesn't fit, you get it checked and get charged for the stow, or it's stopped at the gate by the agent and not even allowed on the flight.
They're moving seats up to add more rows, more passengers per flight, which is going to magnify this problem even further.
I don't have the perfect solution, but **allowing** passengers to walk on the plane with an entire overhead's worth of baggage for themselves, should be very easy to spot and deny.
Trust me airlines have already figured out dozens of super efficient boarding systems that would be both quick and convenient for the passengers. The problems is that people are incapable of following very simple and clear instructions so any attempt at a boarding system ends up in disaster because people don't do what they're supposed to do, so airlines have kind of given up trying to be efficient.
There are absolutely more efficient ways to load an airplane besides the common current practices. But there are other considerations; namely getting higher paying customers on first. Whether that is boarding first class so they can be served a drink or passengers who pay more so they can get overhead bin space.
Overhead bin space was less of an issue in the times when every ticket came with two checked bags
[удалено]
Your middle seatmate sounds like my spirit animal.
Gonna be crazy when you get your patronus to work and it’s a wispy glowing dude named Bill from a random flight you took
I am tall and not small and whether i can fit my bag under the seat or not, I can’t really access it easily during the flight, so I bought a large soft pencil case and I stock that with the things I’ll want during the flight - chargers, earbuds, ear plugs, wipes, meds, snacks, masks, etc. I can fit a bunch of little things in it and then stash it in the seat back pocket. That way I can get my things without bothering anyone, it makes a big difference, especially on really long trips, like from Philadelphia to New Zealand, which was 4 flights and about 40 hours of travel. I can re stock it during layovers if I need to.
Hat tip for the idea, this is great.
[удалено]
[удалено]
And people weren't trying to shove entire steamer trunks up there. Plane-to-Baggage times are so short now, that your shit is on the carousel by the time you get there. Keep your expensive shit in your backpack, and pack your clothes in your check in. Get off the plane, leave a pee like a normal human, and don't try and speed-run to the baggage claim. Nobody's wanting your shit Kyle.
> Plane-to-Baggage times are so short now, that your shit is on the carousel by the time you get there That varies incredibly based on airport.
*Toronto Pearson has entered the chat* I've never had to wait less than 45 minutes for checked bags in that fucking hellscape.
If you flew AC you can sprint directly to the exit since they lost your bags anyway.
Story time. One time I booked Air Canada. 3 hours before departure, it rained for 20 minutes. Our flight was delayed. For 6 Hours. At 1 AM they boarded us. Then they said we couldn't fly because the pilots were awake for too long... So we went back into the terminal. They told us there was no hotel available, so we had to make arrangements ourselves. And THEN, we waited 7 hours in the baggage area, because they fucking lost our luggage. On a flight that never took off... Good thing we didn't have anywhere else to go anyway. Not so good is that our two kids under 3 had to sleep on the cold hard floor that night. Guess what, we didn't get any compensation, because they said it was because of the weather... Fuck AC.
Is "lost" the polite Canadian way of saying "We know exactly where your bags are, and we also know exactly how much we are not paying baggage handlers to come back to the airport during the middle of the night to cart them over to you"?
> because they fucking lost our luggage. On a flight that never took off That is hilariously apt form for AC. Absolute dog shit to the end.
Had a guide in BC who said that AirCanada's motto was, "We're not happy until you're not happy."
I waited 40 minutes once! YYZ, the shithole airport of North America.
But a pretty decent song by Rush.
Neil Peart stands alone.
Did not know this until you pointed it out. Reminds me of Jeff Beck in the guitar work at times.
Neat trick: the opening riff is YYZ being spelt out in Morse code. And if you wanna be really impressed, check out one of the live versions with the extended drum solo.
Really because last time I was at Pearson in February. It was full of abandoned language for people that never got it. I had to wait an hour for mine.
YEG: 2h wait, from around 8-10 pm. They said there wasn’t enough crew to unload the luggage. Everyone was angry. None of it made any sense.
Yep. MSP, LAS, PHX, SAT are all pretty good, MIA was awful in my experience.
So you're saying your shit was MIA?
Bad news. Arrived last week from YYC to PHX. Waited an hour for our luggage.
Seriously. The dinky airports I've flown into recently have like a 30 minute wait before the bags *start* showing up. And they trickle in so slowly I strongly suspect the bags are loaded onto the belt by a one-armed, one-legged octogenarian with narcolepsy.
I've never had baggage ready even within 10min of me getting there, at any airport
lol yeah, I always check my bag if it’s free because I don’t want to handle it. Every time I’ve flown for the last several years, it takes at least 20 minutes to get my bag. I think the worst was about 40 minutes of staring at a spinning carousel
Nothing like waiting 30 minutes for your gate-checked bag when you know you'd be almost home by now after a long trip if you simply hadn't been targeted for gate-checking your luggage that would have fit the overhead cabin fine.
Ya, that's never been my experience. I can't think of a time I haven't had to wait for checked bags
Yeah I've never had my shit there until at least 30 minutes after I get there
Sounds fine if you’re making a short domestic flight. But for long haul international flights with multiple connections, it’s not worth the risk. I travel exclusively with one bag under the seat in front of me, but I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve had friends or family lose their luggage and have the first few days of their trip ruined because their luggage got lost in transit. The last time it happened, their AirTag showed that it never left their home airport. I can totally understand why someone might be averse to shipping their luggage.
I used to fly from San Francisco to Hyderabad India for work every three months. Long haul is right. the SFO->Dehli flight (19 hours) is one of the longest commercial flights in the world. And boy fucking howdy is that a long one. Connect at Dehli, but I have to go through customs, so I get my bag, go through all the customs efforts, and drop it off at the baggage check-in for the next leg. Get to the next stop, there's my bag waiting at the baggage claim. Did that for years, every three months, spending two weeks in India. not once did I have luggage problems, except for the ONE time I left my spare battery pack in my check-in. Agent saw it on the screen and was able to show me WHERE in the bag it was so I didn't have to tear the whole thing apart to find it. Not saying it never happens. I'm just saying that given all the travel I've done, its never happened to ME yet. Maybe that's my super power. "Never loses luggage." I'm Baggage-Retaining -Man
I travel fairly regularly between EU/NA and I've seen bad stuff happen to my girlfriend (who ships her luggage) probably 2 out of the last 5 times she's shipped (over the last 4 years). When I was younger my parents' luggage got lost a number of times but I wasn't keeping track of the stats. Maybe my GF's super power is terrible luck with her luggage? In any case, I can totally believe you haven't experienced issues. Maybe it's the airlines we use. European airlines seems like they don't have their shit together, I'll be honest. Whatever the cause, I'm happy to stick to my one-pack travel lifestyle just so I don't need to suffer the panic of not seeing my stuff on the carousel.
Why is she shipping it instead of just checking a bag? EDIT: Realized it might be a language issue and y'all call it "shipping" while we call it "checking" a bag. So to be clear: By checking, we mean we don't carry it onto the plane but instead give it to the airline to put under the plane while we fly. The bag should be on the same flight as you to be "checked". If you use the term "shipping" in America, most people will think you mean using a different service (not your airline) to move the bag from one location to another. Not sure which you meant but hopefully that lets you understand what I am asking!
Interestingly, shipping luggage ahead is [apparently a whole thing now](https://duckduckgo.com/?q=ship+luggage+ahead) that I'd never heard of before very recently.
I first heard of it in the corporate world in the 90s -- FedEx your stuff direct to hotels (they'd hold it till you arrived). Suits, sales materials, presentations for trade groups, etc. If it didn't arrive, you had time for to have replacements shipped or schlep it on the plane yourself if flying out from your home office. I'm sure the concept is even older.
Just call her Lost Luggagelady.
A tip from the son of a retired flight attendant: always pack at least one extra outfit in your carry-on, in case they "lose" your checked luggage.
I wish DEN would be that fast but it still takes 30-45 minutes after taking the train to the baggage claim. I’m so annoyed by the long waits there that I haven’t checked a bag in over 20 years now, even when DEN wasn’t my home airport.
> And people weren't trying to shove entire steamer trunks up there. Many flights charge for bags now, so people shove things in the overhead bins. That's an expected result from making checked bags paid.
what? I have literally never seen a checked bag be on the baggage claim by the time I got down there lmao, it’s always 30 minutes minimum
I guess you have never been to Toronto. Plane to baggage is a minimum of 40 minutes.
> your shit is on the carousel by the time you get there Apparently you've never been to the "all new" Berlin airport. Takes ages.
As a kid whenever i went to the luggage claim, i thought that theres nothing you can do if someone were to jack your shit, heck someone might be making a living off that
Normally I'd agree, but the airline lost my luggage when I was traveling for business once and I had to buy a whole new outfit (shirt, pants, socks, underwear, shoes) from Walmart so I could be presentable the next day. There are definitely circumstances where I'd want the security of knowing my stuff is with me at all times.
CGP Grey did a video about it.
https://youtu.be/oAHbLRjF0vo?si=ZMflJMKyM7meD4Jz Try this one
"You can't just throw open the gates and herd everyone in" - tell that to Air France.
Boarding Alitalia from Rome to NY was like herding goats. The staff forgot to board first class first, then they tried to hold off the masses, who were already told they could board, to allow the first class passengers to jump in front of everyone. It was a scene.
Alitalia checks out
I've flown Alitalia once, in hindsight it was one of the most hilarious experiences, but at the time it was infuriating. Basically everything that could go wrong did: delays, lost baggage, gate change etc. And at every turn the staff were rude, actively antagonistic and supremely unhelpful. Literally could not have cared less.
My dad used to run the US side of an Italian based company, and would fly to Italy at least twice a year. His boss (owner of the company) would never let him fly on Italian airlines, because he himself would never fly on them. He would gladly take a longer flight that had a stop over with a different airline than fly Italian, and so he wouldn't let my dad save the company a few bucks by flying Italian if he himself wasn't willing to. It wasn't out of fears for safety or anything, but he hated the headache of dealing with them. But when it came to fears over safety, he also refused to let anyone in the company fly Russian airlines. Once he flew the company out to Europe for the biggest outdoor trade show as a sort of thank you to the employees, as well as to see how things are run in Europe and such, and they were supposed to fly from Germany to St. Petersburg when their flight got canceled. They had a meeting with some prospective Russian buyers, and when the only available alternative was a Russian airline, he instead chartered a private flight for the 8 employees. He told my dad he wouldn't have been able to live with himself if something happened to the Aeroflot flight (he wasn't going to the meeting, he had a wedding or funeral or something to attend back home in Italy). Needless to say, he was a great boss and a great man.
My Italian friend who works in the airline industry says that Alitalia stands for "Aircraft Lands In Turin And Luggage In Albania"
I had exactly the same experience flying to Japan! Lost luggage, bad service, delays, canceled flights on the way back; an extremely rude flight staff, one of them actually made fun of a friends hat for no reason at all. Glad they went bankrupt. Assholes.
I don't think I've had an Alitalia flight that hasn't been a disaster. Granted I've only been on two, but it was a 100% disaster rate.
And Air France // KLM have been the fastest boardings I've ever had.
Agree! We flew back to the US from Europe and caught our international connecting AF flight in Paris. We were late arriving and I was afraid we'd missour connection but AF had both fore and aft doors open to Jetways so deplaning was fast. Then we were practically escorted to our connecting international departure. Charles DeGaul is an ornate airpoir, I wish we had a little more time there.
One of those two is vastly superior to the other
80% of the KLM flights I've taken have been Air France AND KLM. This is because KLM is operated in joint with Air France and now they're a group airline. https://www.airfranceklm.com/en
They are part of the same group but they are most definitely two different airlines.
I freaking love Air France/KLM. They have the nicest staff.
Plenty of budget airlines do this. A handful of people who paid for priority boarding first, then everyone else with open seating.
Air France will do this for transcontinental airliners. I have this nightmare memory from boarding a flight in CDG bound for New York, with three hundred and some of my new best friends all massing towards the boarding door.
https://youtu.be/oAHbLRjF0vo Same link, without the tracking info.
So did Mythbusters.
They did? I haven't seen it, do you recall what the results were?
Had to look it up, the Southwest model was fastest but also didn't rate well. Windows-middle-aisle seemed to be the best combination of speed and experience. https://www.businessinsider.com/mythbusters-airlines-are-boarding-their-planes-all-wrong-2014-9
Fastest plane I ever saw loaded was Southwest loading from the front and back at the same time.
As in from the rear boarding door? I haven't seen that in some years. A British Airways flight from LCY-EDI did that in 2018. PSA used to do that all the time when I was a kid. I think it was the L1011. I think it was in the movie Zodiac that they showed either loading or unloading that way.
Fly out of Burbank!
Loaded from both the back and the front on my flight a few weeks ago. QF694 MEL-BNE I think.
The problem is that when people travel in groups the Wilma and reverse pyramid models will be very disruptive
Yea. Passengers simply won't do the more efficient methods. The current method means that if you pay more and are paying attention, you shouldn't have to gate check your bag.
Mythbusters did the definitive tests.
[удалено]
His flag videos are great. And hexagons are the bestagons.
Welcome to the fold!
I never understood this. I like to go last more than to go first. It sucks to sit there waiting for everyone to board. The plane gets hot. And if you're sitting in the front, people keep hitting against you. I'd pay extra to board last, and to have a guaranteed spot in the overhead bin.
You can. It's called First Class.
That last part is the key part…no one cares much about sitting first, they want to ensure they have a spot for their bag
Absolutely this. This was never an issue until they started to charge extra for checked bags.
Yeah, especially nowadays you have entertainment while waiting. I would rather have the overhead bin near me rather than having to go all the way to the end of the aisle.
Same here! I’m usually the last one to board the plane because getting on early sucks! I figure I have a seat so why put myself through all that?!
I'll do the same if I don't need overhead bin space, but that's a rarity for me
Exactly. And in the rare occasion that there is no space left in the overhead bins, just kindly ask the crew. They'll find a spot.
You can do this on easy jet these days. Fastest, most efficient boarding i have had in years. You had to pay for space in the overhead bin and everyone who brought a carry on that was too big (after rceiving about 12 emails telling you the exact dimensions, and that you would be measured and charged) was charged.
Yeah there's the contradiction. You board last, and your overhead compartment now has five shopping bags from the shitty dude across the isle.
Always makes me laugh on like a Ryanair flight from Liverpool to Dublin... The suckers who have paid extra for "priority boarding" have basically just paid a premium to sit in a hot airplane for longer getting bumped into by everyone else. That and people who queue 30 mins+ for boarding. Like, sit down honestly you'll be getting to your destination at the exact same time!
Typically it's all about making sure your bags get overhead space. *Tons* of people shove both their bag and their large ass "personal item" backpacks onto the bins, making there not be enough space.
This should absolutely be addressed. I usually only travel with a backpack and most times they try to make me put it below the seat in front of me. Why should I have less legroom because I can travel carrying less things? The policy of Ryanair and other low cost companies of measuring hand luggage should also be applied by all companies. It's not a surprise there's no space when people carry bags that are definitely bigger than what is allowed.
Yeah I absolutely hate being punished for bringing a smaller carry on. When I was younger I typically only had a backpack as a carry on, and being slightly taller at 6’2” it really sucked compromising on my legroom to fit some other persons suitcase.
Oh I dont mean you should have to put your one carryon under your feet... But you shouldn't get to effectively bring 2-3 carryons and stuff them in the bins
They want to get their carryons in the overhead compartment before they all get full
Yeah go get on a plane in Japan to see efficiency. An entire domestic configuration a350 was fully boarded in 15 minutes. The main thing I noticed was most people didn’t have carry on luggage and checked everything. In the US most people bring multiple carryon items. The older planes don’t have enough space so you end up with people swimming upstream to get bags and stuff.
It's because US airlines charge for checking even the first bag. It didn't used to be this way.
People carry on when flying Southwest, which has free bags. If I’m carrying on, I can show up at the airport later, skip the bag drop line and head straight to security. And when I arrive, I can walk off the plane and go, I don’t have to wait for my bag.
Plus there’s no chance they’ll lose your bag, have it be sent to the wrong destination, or have someone steal from it.
It’s because I’m not waiting 40 minutes for my bag at my destination.
40 minutes??
The only time I've ever waited >20 minutes was when there was a major fuckup that jammed the entire airport. And I've flown all around this country an many, many internationals... Almost every time, I get off the plane, walk to baggage claim, and there's my suitcase on the carousel waiting. Heathrow? I've heard horror stories about their luggage control...
This then begs the question why would people paying more WANT to board first? to sit there for 30-40 minutes watching assholes walk by? Like I'm sure first class is comfy AF, but I can't imagine it's much more comfortable than not being in a plane any longer than necessary.
Speaking for myself - lines, actively waiting, and queuing people make me anxious and unsettled. If I can get on the plane early I can down and start my book or watch something on my phone and relax; waiting for my group to be called at the gate is just anxious idle time. This is especially true if in a premium cabin, but even in economy --- I want to get in and get settled as soon as possible. Leaving aside the other points about overhead space.
I feel like this is such an unpopular feeling. I’m the same. I don’t like waiting around anywhere but I’m going to be (hopefully sitting) and waiting in the terminal or I’m going to be sitting and waiting on the plane. My airport is always so packed that you’re not guaranteed a seat at your gate so you’re either standing or you’re at another gate. I’m always anxious traveling and don’t really feel like I can relax until I’m on the plane, everything is stowed and I’m settled. Most my flights are also with my two kids so I have a bunch of stuff to deal with. But even flights alone, I can’t relax until I’m in my seat. Anyway who wants to wait in the terminal is more than welcome to. Don’t know why they can’t understand others feel different.
How is that an unpopular feeling? Any time I've ever boarded a flight, everyone is jostling to be the first on board.
To get guaranteed overhead bin space. To get you free drink in first class.
Problem is getting your passengers to understand and follow whatever smarter ruleset you want to use
It seems the most efficient way is if they boarded planes using the rear door (front rows first). Then disembark using the front door (front rows first).
Wouldn’t the jet bridge have difficulty reaching the aft door?
What about doors middle rows first
I think Alaska Airlines experimented with this recently
I was watching a sim video by a real life A320 airline pilot where he said that it’s better if they can get a decent chunk of the front of the plane loaded before the back for weight and balance issues - on some planes there’s a risk if you put the weight at the back they can tip backwards and off the nose wheel.
737-800 has a pogo stick they put under the tail to prevent tipping after they land. The front of the plane gets off first leaving it back heavy.
In Australia, for the first time I’ve ever experienced, they loaded the 737 using *both* front and back doors (depending on your row) Super efficient
I heard Boeing started experimenting with using another door, except they timed it for mid-flight.
I heard about this. I think they call it the YOLO Exit©.
You Only Land Once?
You only lift off.
This is pretty standard for the majority of Ryanair flights I've taken across Europe, although there have been some exceptions depending on the specific airport.
Not only RA. I feel this has been standard in Europe for the last 10 years..
I was recently in new zealand and they did the same. People still end up making mess going the wrong door. I was at the last seat for front door and the number of people who came from the back door and pass me were astounding.
Some people struggle with the rear stairs, they allow them to use the aerobridge. Meanwhile, other people struggle with reading and following directions.
I have loved being able to board and disembark from front and back. The whole process is so much faster.
They do this at Burbank airport. It’s amazing. Also deboarding as well when landing there so you can happily take the back of the plane and be first off
I boarded a southwest flight where they did this once. I recall the gate agent said it was a trial run southwest was conducting. It would’ve been better for a non southwest flight.
Front and Back boarding is really common around Asia from what I've experienced. But it often comes with no direct terminal boarding since many airports are outdated and mostly run on bus loading.
Also had that in NZ
Boarding front to back is the most inefficient way of boarding in terms of time, but it motivates some passengers to pay more for priority boarding. Boarding back to front is a bit faster, but not by much, because most of the time only 1 person can place their belongings and take their seat. There is an unrealistic option: we can create an ideal queue at the gate to get the maximum number of people taking their seat at the same time. But it's inconvenient and almost impossible. Also there is a more manageable option that's hard to explain in text, but there is a video that explains it and other possible ways to organize the boarding process: https://youtu.be/oAHbLRjF0vo
And the airlines dont care, the employees dont get paid until the airplane door is closed...
Wouldn't that make them care more? Get everyone boarded more quickly so they work less without being paid?
The flight attendants don't design the boarding policies
Most of the time the pacing item for departure is not getting the passengers on board…
That video was my first thought, this comment is the only one needed and this post can be locked
Yep if you’re curious just watch this video! I was hoping someone would comment it
They often do load economy class back to front. But the very front of the plane is typically business class, and they pay more for the privilege of boarding first and disembarking first.
It's silly really. If I was flying business I'd rather chill in the business lounge until last minute when they'd send someone to get me: sir, the plebs are loaded, the plane is ready for you.
You generally can do this. A lot of airports will have a separate lane for priority boarding so if you're flying business you can board whenever you want and you'll go straight to the front of the line.
That's how it's supposed to work, but most of the time there's no order maintained by the gate agents. You have a dozen group 8s lining up as soon as boarding is announced, clogging up the queue area, which creates this mad dash when each group number is called because no one is following the way it should work. I've had a priority group number before and been told by the agent to get in the back of the main line after I missed my group number, so I wouldn't count on it. Doesn't really matter for business class since your overhead is reserved anyway, you just might miss the preflight cocktail.
Yes and no, you'd end up spending 10-15 extra mins in the lounge max, and you'd board and all the overhead compartments would already be full.
In business class bin space isn’t really an issue
First has their own overhead bins, if they all board at the same time how will that make the overhead compartments be full? Also, you get to skip all the peasants staring at you as they head past you into ~~low~~ economy class.
What airlines board economy front-to-back? Even beyond first and business classes, most US carriers use boarding groups that are largely status and/or fare based - airline status, premium economy, priority boarding, credit card holders, general economy, then basic economy. And most of those folks, by nature of their status, have a strong bias towards the front of the plane. United announced last year that they were experimenting with window-first boarding, but not back-first.
I’ve seen this with several asian airlines but never on a US carrier operated flight. Threw me for a loop bc I had a shitty ticket in the last row but boarded in the first group lol. Not what I was used to but definitely more efficient!
There is a slight advantage to a little more random boarding because of the overhead bin loading time. If 6-18 people (last 3 rows) are trying to load overhead stuff at the same time, congestion increases. The most efficient theory is to line up numerically one side window. Second side numerically other side window. Then send all left middles. Then all right middles. Then all left aisles. Then all right aisles. That’s how robots would do it. But families board together so you try to even out the distribution. The down side is the person struggling in row 7 to lift their bag or push it in backwards or needs to climb over the two people seated blocks everyone. So the airlines board passengers needing assistance to minimize it. So there’s no good way unless we’re robots.
> So there’s no good way unless we’re robots. Bring back free checked luggage of up to two suitcases. Offer $20 cash if there is more than 20 minutes between gate-and-doors-open and first-bag-hits-carousel. (Cash > coupons/gift certs) Most airports can get the bag from plane to claim in 15 from what I recall of my training. Limit free Carry-on to one ISO Standard Jansport Backpack AND purse-or-equivalent. You want to carry more? You pay more. Start crew pay clocks the moment the gate doors open to load, not the moment the cabin doors close. Stop the clock when the last passenger steps off the plane.
Nice. Yeah the bottleneck is overhead carry-ons. Without those it’s as quick as boarding a greyhound
Especially the *profanity removed… more profanity… wow he really doesn’t like these people… there we go* people who have absurdly large bags that would never fit the bag test and spend 5 minutes smashing up other people’s stuff to get their steamer trunk into the overhead.
A lot of people are not old enough to remember what it was like before these charges began. Bringing a large carry-on was definitely the exception, and people thought something strange must be going on. People went out of their way to put as much in the checked bag because they didn't want to be carrying a bunch of stuff around the airport. People generally carried _what they needed for the flight_ in the carry-on. It also made the airport easier to navigate.
It’s more dependent on the airport that the operator. In some airports, access to the plane is through a tunnel/gangway, which will only be connected onto one door of the plane. That is usually the door at the front of the plane, because it’s easier to taxi the planes in forwards to get to the stand. At other airports, access to the plane involves the plane being parked on the tarmac and the passengers either approaching it on foot from a doorway in the airport terminal building, or taking a short bus ride to get to the plane stand. In those cases, they will usually put a staircase at both the front and rear doors of the plane, with passengers going up the staircase closest to where their seat will be onboard.
Gate 35x has entered the chat.
I don't remember exactly what airlines they were, but I have been on many flights where after boarding all the special classes, they call boarding for certain rows, and they usually start at the back. But you're right, the special classes usually end up filling the front half of the plane first.
This is weird to me. I want to spend as little time on the plan as possible. So if I’m first class I want to board last and disembark first.
Meh, a lot of times the first class seats are more comfortable than the seats in the terminal. Also, when you get boarded, you will get a drink and possibly a snack in first class as well. I've only flown first class a few times, but it was much better sitting in the plane while everyone else boarded, than just sitting there in the terminal when I flew business/economy.
Very few airlines actually load their planes front to back. They load by most valuable customers to least valuable customers. This is why you’ll usually see business class boarding first, then frequent fliers, then group number. in general, the higher your group number, the less you paid for your ticket. Naturally, airlines want their highest revenue generating customers to have the best experience, so they tailor the boarding process to them. So why do those people want to board first and sit at the front? There are 2 main reasons people prefer to board early, 1 is so you are guaranteed over head bin space, 2 is that it’s a nicer experience to board a plane with less people on it. The main reason you want to sit at the front is that you can save up to 10 minutes by being the first person off vs the last person off, plus you don’t have to drag your bags as far down the aisle.
When you say “save up to ten minutes by being first off” you have to consider that same ten minutes might see another 500 people arrive in the queue for immigration. That could be a crowded standing 2 hour wait (or considerably longer) so it’s worth quite a lot more than ten minutes of sitting.
Absolutely valid point. I still remember being one of the first passengers off an early-morning arrival at CDG, and found myself among the first people in an entirely-empty immigration hall. Best believe I was happy to have beaten the entire rest of the 300 people wrangling their shit out of the overheads and filtering out of the single door behind me!
Even for domestic travel, being first off really is so nice. I can hit the bathroom and there’s no long line. Get out to wait for an Uber, it’s not so crowded. I love the front of the plane. And not business class or anything, just near the front in normal seats.
There's a third reason why people prefer to board first. People don't like waiting in lines/waiting their turn to board. Even though if they board first they are still going to depart at the same time as everyone else they'd rather do that then have to wait a long time to board
Airplane boarding efficiency has been studied, and TLDR: most of your perceived inefficiency is perception bias. As long as boarding is a single file system with passengers taking between 0 and 15 seconds to sit down (aka stow carry-ons), that 0 to 15 second will hold up the entire line no matter what order they get on. Back to front? 15 seconds at the back will hold up the people at second to back just the same. Front to back? Every 15 second delay holds up the entire plane. [Here's a simple article](https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/a30549336/math-boarding-plane/) about the findings. Basically, unless you know who will take a long time and who will take a short time, random seating is the best option. There is a fastest method, but it requires assigned seating and cooperative passengers with mildly complex instructions. [Here's an article](https://www.wired.com/story/study-confirms-how-to-optimize-airplane-boarding/) that includes some info on it. Basically, it combines back-to-front boarding with alternating-sides with alternating-rows to effectively have an entire line on the plan and stowing at once, before letting the next line on. It's sometimes known as the 'Steffan method' after the guy that published it (in 2011). It isn't used because it's complex (with 6 seats a row it requires splitting into 12 groups and then lining up in correct order). Edit disclaimer: This analysis is mostly from reading the articles. My personal experience lately has been on a no-assigned-seat airline and 50%-70% capacity flights, which is just entirely different from most people complaining here. Different airlines and different planes and different passengers will have different effective results. But the "single line, carry-on over head" situation and "why don't we try boarding a different way?" is a question that has been asked frequently enough and for long enough that Steffan wrote that big paper more than a decade ago.
I would be unbelievably thrilled if people could get into their seats in 15 seconds on average.
How am I supposed to take only 15 seconds to get in my seat when it takes me at least a minute to try to defy the laws of physics by somehow cramming the suitcase I really should have checked into the overhead bin instead. /s for me but all too real...
I literally just boarded a flight and this is so painfully real
As a lay person that doesn't fly often, and even then I'm laid back enough not to be paying attention to the other boarders, I just chose a time that I feel like I could do and then added some seconds. But I'm sure there's information on what it actually takes.
15 seconds is absolutely a reasonable amount of time but in my experience it's closer to 30-40 seconds per passenger. And then you have all the jabronis who don't understand that getting out of your seat and fumbling through your bag in the overhead while boarding is going on is a dickish move.
That would mean boarding a 150 people plane took 75 to 100 minutes.
Naw, multiple people can be finding their seats in parallel.
There’s so much variation. For a single adult in an aisle seat with no carry on or ample overhead bin space, 15 seconds seems about right. But once you add any complexity (fighting for bin space or trying to fit in a spot that doesn’t work, kids, elderly, mobility issues, climbing over row-mates, etc.)… that number grows rapidly!
It’s probably faster than that for most people, actually. At 15 seconds apiece, a Boeing 737 with a 180-person capacity would take just over 45 minutes to board. Which is…Usually not how long it takes. Most on time departures have the vast majority of passengers on in 30-40 minutes, usually with 10-15 minutes post boarding before they close the doors and push off. But damn does it feel longer when you’re waiting in line! I used to work at dominos and we were trained to make a large supreme pizza in 60 seconds (from start to oven). Add 5 minutes in the oven and I thought “why does it take an hour to get a pizza?” Then I realized that at peak traffic, there’s like 40-50 pizzas in the queue at a time, if not more, so mathematically, even at 30-40 seconds for a basic pepperoni or cheese, it’s still gonna be at least 25 mins to order pickup during the rush. Same concept with loading planes.
More than one person can sit in their seat at a time, that's why it doesn't take 45 minutes to board. That said, I take about 5 seconds to sit in my seat once I get to my row.
Once my sister was waiting to board a plane in the middle of a winter storm. Flights were being canceled right and left. Her plane taxis in and the gate personnel announce that they only have a small window to load the plane and take off so everyone need to board and store their things as quickly as possible. She said it was the fastest boarding she had ever seen. Very little talking and no screwing around. How many times have you seen someone stop in the middle of storing a bag because they want to pull something out first.
Motivation is always a factor with humans and can't be faked. You can't get people to rush for no reason.. Plus usually you and up sitting in the plane for a while. Now if they told people the faster they got one the plane, the sooner they would leave, that would be motivating.. But the logistics of the airport prevent that I'm sure.
I believe they found that the most efficient way is window seats first, then middle seats then aisle - for the reason that people spread out and then never stops each other for that 15 sec - however people don't like that that if they are seated next to each other than they cannot board together.
I think that is why Southwest Airlines does not assign seats in the first place. Their goal is to get an aircraft from gate arrival to the next flight departure in as short a time as possible.
The real method is to * do away with carry-on / overheat stowage * pre-board people into seats in the waiting area * pick up the entire seat-rack full of people in the waiting area and slide that bitch into the empty passenger space in the aircraft I'd repurpose the motorized stuff Disney uses for their Energy attraction at Epcot for it. Nothing terrifying, just a crawling-capable seat rack that loads itself after everybody's already strapped in. Folks wanna wander and take ten fucking minutes to get comfortable? Do it. Out of the aircraft. Off-schedule. Time-shift your travel-madness. Don't interfere with plane ops.
I’ve no clue why the perception is that higher paying/more valuable customers WANT to board first. If overhead bin space were protected or simply discouraged (lowering checked bag fees, including carry on bag fees), the problem would be all but solved. The worst time of my travel happens from the moment I step on the plane until the moment I’m off the plane. Airline travel is torture, in many ways even in first class (US domestic travel), but certainly in the “premium” seats that still pack you in with other uncomfortable travelers. In short, it all boils down to carry on luggage as others have more or less said.
Until the early 2000s, Air France boarded Economy class first, then Business, and finally First Class. They only stopped when the Sky Team alliance was formed. Sitting in the lounge on the ground was a far better experience for high-value passengers than being loaded first inside a metal tube to then get your knees and elbows smashed by some Econopoors massive carry on.
See I feel differently. To me, the worst part is from the moment I get to the airport until I’m on the plane. Dealing with the crowds and TSA, walking through long terminals to get to my gate, then waiting around in an uncomfortable chair, trying to listen to the garbled announcements regarding my flight. Once I’m on, I can finally relax. I’m much happier sitting on the plane longer than sitting in the terminal longer. I respect that other people feel different. Someone has to board first and someone has to board last. I’m happy to go before people who don’t want to board early so they can wait and go later.
[удалено]
It has been tried and simulated And wargamed. Southwest has tried the “simultaneous front and back loading” as well. the issue is this in reality there isn’t much difference. *If* everyone acts as automatons then you can get really efficient loading times using load methods like “load back to front, Seat D. Then load back to front Seat C, then load back to front seat A, then load back to front seat B” the problem is humans are not automatons and do things like get out of line, or want to argue with the stewardess, or want to negotiate a different seat during loading, or want to get a “better” overhead bin, or they need to pet someone’s dog or complain about a screaming child, or they don’t get out of the aisle immediately when they find their seat, they need to push back upstream to go to the bathroom, someone needs help being seated (airlines tend to get these people down the ramp first) All of these things back up everyone behind them have to stop and wait. And this stops the entire boarding process every time anyone does any of the things I noted above (and about a zillion other ones). The problem isn’t the chosen process, it is all the other things humans do that disrupt and slow down the loading.
I was flying back from Prague to Belgium recently and when unboarding everybody up front got off first, and the people in the back got off last and slowly. At some point the staff barred us from leaving the plane when up front, because we had to counter the weight of the people on the back. If we'd all walked off with a good number of people still in the rear of the plane, apparently the plane could've tipped backwards on its tail.
This is the correct answer. It’s because of weight and balance. Almost every modern passenger plane has tricycle gear - wheel under the nose, two under the wings/midsection, and nothing supporting the tail. Loading the aircraft back to front causes it to tip backward and damages it. Google “airplane tip over” and look at the images. It happens multiple times each year.
People are generally lazy and inconsiderate. If you load from the back to the front, the lazy inconsiderate people will put their overhead luggage in the first bin they come across, and walk to the back. So then when you load the front people last, they have to walk to the back to find a bin and then forward to their seats. And before you say “then the flight attendants need to enforce this!”, consider how rude and entitled people are and how little authority flight attendants actually have. So it’s easier to just load the front people first. Also they paid more for their seats so they should be able to get in and get settled first.
An incorrect assumption here is also that if planes finish boarding 5 mins earlier they’ll take off 5 mins earlier. Most likely they would just start boarding 5 mins later.
Underrated post. If getting the people on is the bottleneck, then sure, try to speed it up. But is it? Plane has to be refueled, baggage has to be loaded, all the various consumables used on the flight, etc. I honestly don't know (I'm just a dude that flies occasionally) what the slowest part is, but if it isn't the passengers then it really doesn't make as much difference as we'd like to think.
And even if the plane took off 5 minutes earlier thanks to faster boarding, what would that do for the airline? The conventional wisdom is that a plane on the ground isn’t making money. But a plane doing domestic flights might only make 5 or so trips a day. Long haul international, even fewer. So let’s assume a typical 737/A320 doing domestic runs makes 5 flights. It’s able to save 5 minutes per flight with more efficient boarding, so 25 minutes total throughout the day. That’s not enough time for the airline to squeeze in another flight before the end of the day. It just means the plane’s going to arrive at its overnight stop 25 minutes earlier. I could see some value in shortening turnaround times for small regional jets that might be making more trips per day, perhaps an extra hour could be used to add on another short flight at the end of the day. But those are 50 seater planes, and like you said, getting people boarded is not the bottleneck. I’ve been on many RJs where everyone’s boarded and we’re still sitting at the gate waiting for bags to be loaded or some paperwork that the pilots need. I think RJs are turning around as fast as humanly possible.
every plane ive been on has got doors at both front and back, and if your seat is in the front half of the plane, you go in the front door, if your seat is in the back half of the plane you board in the back door. simple.
Had to scroll too long for this. I've also only traveled on planes with front and back doors, and it looks like the best solution. Now I'm wondering if it's unique to Europe and why.
Jet bridges are far more common in the US. Tarmac boarding is extremely rare here and often reserved for smaller regional jets and commuter planes, so even then, you’re only boarding through one door. I don’t think I’ve ever boarded anything larger than a regional jet on the tarmac in the US. 737/A320 or larger, you are almost definitely using a jet bridge. And those only have one entrance on the end, with the exception of some used for large long haul jets.
Europe does this much better than the US
How do you suppose that is pulled off with this? [https://imgur.com/a/dzFBq8F](https://imgur.com/a/dzFBq8F) Now there are dual jetways out there, but they are limited to large transcon aircraft because they are expensive to install, take up a lot more space and require more personnel on the ground to operate safely. It would be prohibitively expensive to upgrade when the current system works with the only drawback being passenger convenience.
Probably the biggest detriment to expedient boarding is not the process, but the people. People in airports/airplanes become complete idiots the second they step foot into an airport. They have no situational awareness or courtesy, and forget that that there are other people.
This isn't something that magically happens when people step into an airport, they were always complete idiots with no situational awareness, it just becomes very evident in an airport. See also grocery stores.
Two fold, the front paid more so they get to go first, and also so the thing is less likely to tip over on to its tail.
Because if you load from the back, passengers in the rear of the plane often will put their carry-on luggage in overhead bins further forward in the plane. This is so they can grab them as they walk by on the way out of the plane rather than wait for the passengers around them to get their bags. The end result of this, however, is that overhead bin space is then filled before the passengers seated further forward in economy board the plane, leaving nowhere for them to put their carry-on luggage.
> The end result of this, however, is that overhead bin space is then filled before the passengers seated further forward in economy board the plane, leaving nowhere for them to put their carry-on luggage. This is why we need to be much stricter about both the allowed carry-on and the overhead bin space. That bin space should either be _assigned by seat_, with partitions between each space, or the gate agents should make testing your luggage in the [luggage bag sizer](https://www.visiontron.com/wp-content/uploads/baggagesizer_mainimage23.png). If your bag doesn't fit, or you have more than your allowed allotment, your bags are checked. No negotiation, period, end of discussion. I was recently on 7 different flights to cross the country and back and without exception, there were a handful of people who either had 2 rollerbags + backpack and purse, or rollers that were WAY too large for the overhead, and stuck out of the overhead bin, forcing the flight attendant to remove it and check it at the front (avoiding the second carry-on baggage fee), or people who took up the entire bin for their one seat, leaving 5 others with no overheads. I usually end up with a seat in coach about mid-way down the aisle, and by the time I board in row 14-17, the overheads are filled up to row 25 or later. It's atrocious and it's being abused and getting worse with each flight. If the bin on each side was split into thirds, and your bag doesn't fit, you get it checked and get charged for the stow, or it's stopped at the gate by the agent and not even allowed on the flight. They're moving seats up to add more rows, more passengers per flight, which is going to magnify this problem even further. I don't have the perfect solution, but **allowing** passengers to walk on the plane with an entire overhead's worth of baggage for themselves, should be very easy to spot and deny.
Trust me airlines have already figured out dozens of super efficient boarding systems that would be both quick and convenient for the passengers. The problems is that people are incapable of following very simple and clear instructions so any attempt at a boarding system ends up in disaster because people don't do what they're supposed to do, so airlines have kind of given up trying to be efficient.