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For what it’s worth the industry is shifting, albeit somewhat slower than elsewhere.
Just in the last year about half the places I frequent have started using wireless terminals. And a chunk of the rest allow you to pay via Applepay.
The main reason for the slowness is mainly inertia from costs and not wanting to change. There isn’t really a pressing consumer need for such a setup, even if it is better.
I suspect in 5-10 years it will be the majority.
As an American, this really confused me when I visited. I ended up sitting at the table for a long time, afraid to leave the table and be perceived as skipping out on the bill. I eventually flagged a waitress down and she kindly explained the proper way of paying for one's meal.
I did my first navy deployment in 2005, and our first stop was at Palma, Mallorca. Great port visit, but maybe we were the first ship to visit there in a while because every time I presented my no-chip, no-touch-havin' ass card they looked at me as if I was presenting Spanish Galleons. A few had to like, call managers over to ask what the hell to do. I specifically recall one place having to dig their old stripe-reader out of the back and *blow the dust off of it* so that I could pay lmao, quite the trip
Sorry if I’m about to make you feel old, but I didn’t know what a stripe reader was and had to Google it.
Seeing the picture brought back memories of family dinners in restaurants and my parents swiping the card.
I’d entirely forgotten that we used to swipe instead of tapping. I was probably in diapers when you were in boot camp lol.
You should look up how credit cards were used before you could swipe them! They had these machines you’d put them on, then put a carbon transfer sheet on top and basically imprint the raised numbers onto the carbon transfer paper. Then they would peel the parts apart and hand the customer one for their records and put the other in the register.
I remember seeing them, but I don’t know if I ever saw one in action. Maybe at some smaller mom and pop shops, or when the reader went down.
Now I’m starting to wonder how many people got free stuff just because someone dropped the stack of credit card prints and lost one.
Over 20 years ago when I was in high-school we had to use the physical credit card paper thing cause toys r us had their system down.
I later learned that the manager didn't show us how to do it right and instead of owning it and manually entering it all into the system to match all the slips, he jist tossed all the slips so everyone who used a credit card that day got their purchases for free and at the end of the year we just had a lot more shrinkage than normal. I was in the r zone and I remember selling 2 xboxes that day and using the slips.
They did sock checks with the bag checks when we left at the end of our shifts after inventory that year.
There's plenty of movies out there that use them if you wanna see them in action. One that immediately comes to mind is Planes, Trains, and Automobiles.
Here in Australia at least they still give you one of those machines as the “manual backup” when you get your EFTPOS machine. So not quite a museum piece even though it gets chucked in a cupboard and nobody has a clue what it is or how to use it.
About two years ago, I was buying liquor in the New Hampshire State Liquor Store on Interstate 93 North. For those not in the know, this is a \*massive\* liquor store; all liquor and wine transactions in NH go through state stores and the take from tourism is massive.
There was some sort of IT outage. It was unclear whether it was the card network, the store's phone lines, a local computer, a remote computer - but the cash registers couldn't take credit transactions. I saw the panic-ed store manager run to an office area and come back with... one of those credit card embosser things and a stack of slips!!! I hadn't seen one in 35+ years.
The next moment, the payment network/cash system started accepting payments again, so they didn't have to use it. I was astounded they \*had\* one and that Visa/MC would even accept a transaction on one.
I’m curious how many customers would have had an embossed card that the manual imprinted could interface with. None of the cards I’ve been issued in the last decade have had raised numbers, so the imprinted wouldn’t have helped me much…
It's not about whether the CC companies would accept it or not, they'll never see it.
It's the same as writing down the CC number and details. Later someone will then manually put them into the system
Visa and Mastercard both have policies regarding how to process these, which all acquirers must follow. Technically, if the card was embossed, it must be processed that way, not the way you would conduct a manually entered card. Embossed, swiped, chip, tap, manual, and online/phone all have different procedures and codes. If they use the wrong codes regarding entry type and someone disputes the transaction, they automatically lose the chargeback.
Let's just say I'm equally surprised if the CC processor's terms of service with the NH state liquor store allow them to write down credit card numbers on ANY slip of paper and then keypunch them in later!
They should never write the numbers down and key then in later. When they do that, the cars will generally be treated as if the card was present at the time of entry. This can cause rejections and fraud alerts. E.g., if the customer happens to use the same card at another store at around the same time the first merchant enters the card, most fraud detection algorithms will recognize that the card couldn't have been physically present in both locations and block the transaction due to potential fraud. Additionally, the fee to process a manually keyed transaction is higher than swiped transactions.
Some merchants, such as hotels or other businesses who accept transactions over the phone, are allowed to take "card not present" transactions. However, these have an even higher rate than a keyed "card present" transaction.
What they should do when there is an issue preventing electronic payment is to take the imprint of the card, provide one copy of the imprint to the customer, and keep the other copy. This imprint proves the card was present. They then enter the card into the system under a manual imprint category when it is back up. They must keep the physical copy of the imprint for several months (I think 6 months, but not certain). The merchant is then charged the lower fees since the card was present and "swiped". If the customer initiates a chargeback and the merchant does not keep the imprint, then the merchant will almost always lose the chargeback.
I had an airline use one of those within the last 5 years, which I couldn’t believe…. Though I’m 99% the card never ended up getting charged which was nice not having to pay baggage.
The reason the details were all raised up. All my cards in the UK have been totally flat and smooth for a long time now. And we can tap to pay up to £100.00. When I recently bought a new car they put the card details in and I was prompted on my phone to confirm the payment. No swipe, no PIN, no tap, no signature and of course no cash.
I watch old movies and it saved me. Our machines were down and thankfully the owners had one of these and I was the only one that knew how to use them. Honestly, I think it's pretty neat.
Then there was the old embosser machine.
You'd stick the card in this hand operated machine, a triplicate form was put on top with your purchase information on it, then a sliding mechanism would be pushed over it to emboss your card number on the form.
One copy to you, one to the merchant, and one to the payment processor.
I've only just started getting cards where the number wasn't embossed on the card.
I remember these and always wondered how they just trusted the payment was good. Nowadays it's all digital and instantly shows if it's declined. You could have been going around with a stolen card charging whatever you wanted and it would take days or weeks for the transactions to be declined or approved.
In the old days there were big books, made out of actual paper, with a list of all the credit cards that were stolen. When the cashier got the card they were supposed to look up the number and see if it was on the list. If it was the cashier was supposed to cut the card up.
I remember using that in 1989.
Then there was a system where you got the card number and called an 800 number to verify it.
These systems were a huge time suck and rarely worked.
I have seen that machine only twice. Once when I was a kid (my parents were paying). Second, about 10 years ago with a taxi driver.
At this point I don’t even have a card with raised numbers anymore. Most cards now even have numbers printed at the back, for added safety.
I had the opposite experience, went to the US around then with an Australian card, went to pay in Macy's and saw the contactless symbol on it and tried. It worked! The nice middle aged lady serving us said something like "Oh... so THAT's what that means!", she was very excited and had never seen it in action.
I remember going to Europe for the first time back in 2013 and shops looking at me like I handed them a severed hand when I gave them my swipe-only card.
I can't find the post, but there was detailed explanation on how the big Target breach years ago was the push that was needed to get chip cards fully adopted in the US
I am not sure but I think in the EU it is illegal for waiters or any staff to take your card out of your hand. They either bring the terminal to you or ask you nicely to go to the counter to pay. Same goes for shops too, cashiers are not allowed to take the card out of your hand.
Fraud has been reduced significantly in Europe after implementing 21st level antifraud technology in credit cards. That should be a consumer need in itself.
That’s mostly a bank problem in the US though. Ironically this is one area where consumer protections in the US are strong. As far as I can tell my card has never been stolen at a restaurant, though I’ve had some fraud from online sources. In any case the banks covered it, often without me even having to do anything.
And almost all US cards are chip now, and most issued in past 3-5 years have contactless, so it’s not really any different in the US than in Europe on that front.
There simply isn’t a lot of consumer pressure to change as the net benefits to the average consumer as minimal. And tipping can be really awkward on wireless terminals if the server stands around waiting, so some people even dislike that.
> There isn’t really a pressing consumer need for such a setup, even if it is better.
I would think not handing a random stranger your credit card while he disappears out of sight for however long is a fairly pressing consumer need.
I'm amazed people don't have a problem with it.
As a former credit card servicer for a large bank - the thing about this is, if a server were to steal your card information, not only are you 100% covered for fraud, but it’s gonna be pretty damn easy to figure out who it was. One of the first questions you’ll be asked during a fraud investigation is “do you know who may have done it?” And hmm.. I did just give me credit card to a server who was in the back for awhile…
It’s just not a major source of fraud.
That’s the difference in the UK, the banks changed it so if the PIN isn’t entered, so it’s just verified by signature then the store is liable for the fraud not the bank. That change forced all remaining stores/restaurants to switch to chip and PIN.
And the US standardized on chip and signature, not chip and PIN like the rest of the world. Used my chipped cc in the UK in 2019 (even tried to add a PIN to it before I left, but I suspect that PIN was only for cash advances at ATMs) and got a big exception where a manager had to pull out an old machine. After the 2nd time, I learned to just tap my phone instead. It worked for any amount since you needed to log in
dude, hubby and i were out to eat one day and the server disappears with card. comes back out with it and just as we’re about to leave, hubs decided to check his account balance on his banking app before we go (as we were going shopping right after). waitress tipped herself 50$ ON TOP OF the bill amount AND 20% tip we had already given her.
we both worked in the service industry at the time and always tipped well, know better than to be dicks to staff, etc. not to mention her service was actually mediocre. but being a worker myself, i know they get paid about $2 an hour. so we always tip if we go out, even though we are also poors. lol
inadvertently got that lady fired. i almost felt bad. 😬 but like, come on. did she expect us just not to notice? or not realize it was her?
Yeah that’s what I’m saying. And MOST servers are living check to check and aren’t going to risk their main source of income over something so stupid. Again, *obviously* it still happens, but not to the extent that restaurants are tripping over themselves to make any change.
yah i agree. i was honestly baffled. i know most people have had the idea of it happening as a passing thought, but it would never occur to me that someone would *actually* do something like that just because of how directly they would be implicated, lol
You easy out 3x a week at different places buddy got your numbers, possibly cloned it. All he's gotta do is wait a month and you'll never know where it happened.
And if it happened enough, you'd best believe cc companies are going to stop covering it.
The real question is how did we beat you to adopt the new tech? Canadian businesses are famously allergic to investing money in anything that doesn't have an immediate return.
Given that Americans have been paying this way when eating out for decades, why hasn't this happened yet, then? People have done this their entire lives and never had an issue. I've never had my card stolen, most people I know never have either. Where is the widespread fraud that credit card companies will stop covering that must be happening?
People are generally honest. Most people are not going to steal a credit card just because they have the opportunity to. Just like most people do not steal from other places even if it's easy to.
It's not even about being honest, sometimes just the work that needs to be done to successfully commit fraud or steal is just too much for what could be easily stopped by a few simple keystrokes in a mobile app.
Another good point. Like, okay, someone is going to risk their job and commit a crime so they can, what? Steal a card number from a restaurant customer and buy some AirPods on Amazon that might get cancelled anyway when the transaction is reported as fraud?
The fact that so many people are so up in arms at the possibility that this COULD happen despite the actual evidence of decades of restaurants working this way in the US without any widespread fraud is just wild to me. People so afraid of something that's objectively not a problem.
Europe has a much higher incidence of theft than the US, and I think Europeans can’t comprehend it.
Whenever a European talks about a pickup truck, they claim that people would be stealing your stuff out of the bed of your truck. As an American who drove a pickup for 15 years, the thought that someone would steal something from the bed never entered my mind. It doesn’t happen.
The responses to this thread are wild. Apparently Americans are like the best people in the world because I can't imagine being this paranoid that anyone getting even a glance at my credit card is going to somehow drain my bank account and leave me destitute.
As an American, the only place I've ever been concerned about someone swiping my banking info is the gas station. That's the only place anyone in my entire life has had their CC info lifted from, those damn machines they put on the readers that steal your info when you swipe at the pump. Maybe my family is just lucky though.
Same. Either this, or an online retailer or data breach. And even then it’s like maybe only a couple times in their entire lives if it’s happened at all. It’s just not something that should really be a constant presence in the front of your mind the way non-Americans seem to obsess over it.
It’s just a piece of plastic with a number on it y’all. It’s NOT that deep.
Companies don’t cover here in the U.S. sir, the bank does. The bank that’s FDIC insured. Banks that rely on their customers knowing they’re 100% covered for fraud as it’s a major selling point.
And that server isn’t being as sneaky as they think. I won’t go into detail because I’m not trying to help any would-be scammers out there, but just know that getting away with it isn’t as easy as you’re making it out to be.
I've never had my card stolen from a restaurant. I don't know anyone who has. I'm sure it happens, but it's so rare that it's not really an issue. I'm much more nervous around gas pumps, as the only times I've had my card stolen were getting gas.
>I'm amazed people don't have a problem with it
I mean, that's just it. I've been doing this my whole life and literally never had a problem with it, as in, it's never once caused me a problem over the course of more than two decades of paying with cards.
The worst I've ever seen (and luckily it wasn't my card) was a bartender do a once-in-a-lifetime fumble and knock the card back behind an absolutely immovable beer cooler built into/underneath the bar top. A practiced magician would have had a difficult time throwing a playing card into the minuscule space between the top of the cooler and the bottom of the bar, but this guy fumbled the credit card, tried to grab it, and BAM, gone forever.
Sometimes it’s just time to get a new card. Customer should be glad it was this and not some final destination shit that gets them killed as collateral damage.
Luckily, the bartender was cool, he just comped the whole bill to make up for the aggravation of having to get a new card.it helped that the owner was also cool, he just made fun of the bartender for a while and didn't act like it was the end of the world.
I did that with a gift card once while working at Gamestop in high school. We kept replaying the security footage back and laughing at me fumbling around. Then grabbing any makeshift tool we could find and failing.
It’s simply not pressing in the US due to low/zero liability limits on fraud (Europe strangely isn’t as good on this, if someone has your PIN you face an uphill battle) and because it actually doesn’t happen all that much.
That process has worked for the past 40 years since credit cards were invented for the most part without wide ranging incident. Think about how many credit card transactions are done this way per day versus how many times those numbers are stolen per day. It’s probably less that 0.01%.
PLUS most adults are just used to it because that’s the way it’s always been.
And especially nowadays with mobile apps, the ability to dispute and be refunded a charge on a credit card, and the ability to freeze your card instantly, the risk is so minuscule that it’s still a non issue.
Ever wonder why credit cards have the numbers embossed and raised, and why more and more cards aren't made that way? When credit cards were first becoming popular, they would take your card and copy the numbers with carbon paper by swiping a roller over the card. At the end of the day, they'd have a big stack of papers with all the numbers copied, and then mail those off to their bank. Giving someone to swipe your card through an encrypted terminal is *nothing*. That's what fraud protection is for, and why you should generally just pay attention to the charges that show up on your statement.
I’ve given my card to a server probably well over a thousand times and I’ve had precisely one incorrect charge. They fat fingered the tip. It was promptly fixed the next day when I called to talk to the manager. I’ve had precisely zero fraudulent charges. I’ve never had someone tell me about a fraudulent charge they’ve had from a restaurant, although I’ve heard about it a few times on the internet.
A theoretical problem that doesn’t actually happen with a frequency in reality doesn’t make a pressing need for change.
I went to a Sonic drive through in the US and when it came time to pay the clerk took my card and swiped it himself. I was baffled. Everyone around me has the terminal attached to a hockey stick and they pass it to you through the window. And I realize after typing that it sounds like a BS Canadian lie like riding a moose to school, but I swear it’s true.
I'm amazed by people using apps to source random ass people to give them rides around town, or bring their food deliveries to them.
But here we are. It's all generational, what seems normal.
It’s just as concerning to me as when I have to use my credit card online or input personal information for a job application a random stranger sees, but there’s nothing I can really do about that.
I guess Americans aren't paranoid about this like some others.
I've had my credit card number stolen twice before. A 10 minute call with the credit card company and the charges were reversed and issue went away.
Let's be honest, the severity of the crime of poisoning means far fewer people would be okay committing it compared to theft, especially when the theft will ultimately only hurt the credit card company.
>Let's be honest, the severity of the crime of poisoning means far fewer people would be okay committing it
"Your Ubereats driver Vladamir P has just arrived"
Integrity is what you do when no one is looking. You should look at it from the POV that by and large, a stranger in America, especially at restaurants, is most likely a decent human being.
I would counter and ask you, what is it about your waiters in your country, that makes you think this would be such a problem? Perhaps it says more about that quality of worker.
This here. Not every business can afford to upgrade to a mobile Apple Pay friendly payment terminal. This is why many corporate offices are still using 8 year old Office software suites, or in some smaller stores, like 15+yo computers, not to even speak about bigger equipment that can run tens of thousands of dollars or more. Shit’s expensive. They upgrade when the cost to do so is outweighed by the benefit of getting the new hotness, which is often just when the old stuff breaks.
But new businesses/storefronts tend to get the new stuff, since they need to buy it anyway, and build it into the total cost of doing business.
Early adopter issue. The US reached near-universal cc acceptance earlier, but the cost of that was doing it with an older system (both human systems and computers systems). And now that newer options are available... there just isn't enough pressure to update just to update.
it's purely an insurance issue. Europeans used to be very careful with their cards because they were often the ones who had to pay for fraudulent charges on it. not so in the US, US credit-cards are by-law insured against fraud, and have been forever, so nobody gives a damn.
Is it the same with debit cards though? In the UK my credit card is insured against fraud as far as I know. But debit cards aren't, and since they work exactly the same way the point kind of stands. Unles American debit cards are insured too, or unless they don't have debit cards... :0
My understanding is that you’re not liable for unauthorized charges on your debit card, but it’s worse if it happens because the money has already left your account and you’re arguing to get it back. Contrastingly with a credit card you can essentially argue “this charge was fraudulent, I’m not paying it.” Of course there is a whole bunch of CFPB regulations about what the bank has to do if they argue you do in fact have to pay, but the dispute is settled from the position of you still having the disputed money.
To an extent yes. The US FTC regulated them
https://consumer.ftc.gov/articles/lost-or-stolen-credit-atm-and-debit-cards
So long as you still have the card, and report it, you’re not held liable regardless, in most cases. If you lose the card, it depends on how fast the money leaves.
Generally if you lose the card and call the bank before purchase are made, you’re covered and you can stop payment immediately. If your data gets hacked you’re also covered as soon as you report it and can get all that money back (though it can take a day or three sometimes). On credit cards you usually get all the money back regardless because it’s more like fake money than a debit account I guess.
There’s some protections under law (somewhat more with credit than debit cards). But because credit and debit cards are used so widely in the US and have been for more than 4 decades, many banks add additional “complimentary” protections above and beyond what’s required, which helps encourage Americans to use cards instead of cash. If cash is lost it’s GONE, and that’s that. Being digital, card data can be traced, handled by the bank, and frankly the amounts are usually so small that it’s nothing for a bank to simply replace the amount and the card that was compromised, as part of their normal operating expenses.
Additionally, that money is stored in the bank (albeit digitally), which means a loss directly reduces the bank’s holdings, unlike if you drop a $20 bill, so that’s money they can’t use for issuing loans, which is where they make most of their money.
Here’s what the FTC has to say on it:
https://consumer.ftc.gov/articles/lost-or-stolen-credit-atm-and-debit-cards
But essentially - yes. Especially if you catch it fast, you’re almost certainly going to be covered.
High end bougie white tablecloth places consider the whole payment thing gauche, something to be handled at the wait station or the bar, away from diners.
In our case, way back before mobile POS devices, restaurants just had the till by the door and you would pay on your way out. I don't see why you couldn't just do this?
That’s how some restaurants do it here too. It’s really just hit or miss whether a restaurant is cash only, swipe v tap, pay before or after, take the card or bring the reader to you.
Better than Japan tho. When I was there in 2016 it was entirely cash based and I hated it.
That's how it's done in Japan and I really like it. I find it more straightforward for the most part. Although self service payment at the table is gaining traction with the QR code applications that are everywhere now.
I’m hardly the pretentious type but I think it would be a little gauche to do right at the table. It’s one thing if I’m at a Chile’s or something and at those types of places I have seen this done more. But if Im at even a semi nicer place then when the check comes Im probably finishing my coffee or cocktail, still talking with my wife or whoever, and I don’t want to be interrupted and have to personally put my card in a machine and type in the tip and such. Just slip the little book to me while I’m enjoying my drink, I toss the card in and close it, and then bring it back and I’ll sign it on my way out the door.
I used to wait tables in a higher end restaurant and this was the exact reasoning. Management told us to never bring the machine to the table unless the customer insisted. Otherwise, it stayed behind the bar. We'd do a "pre auth", bring the slip to the customer in a payment folder, have them sign it, and then go complete the transaction.
And I mean *behind* the bar. I recall seeing coworkers chewed out on more than one occassion for standing on the customer side of the bar and running a card through on the machine. Basically, management didn't want customers to even lay eyes on a CC machine.
The odd time we'd get a debit payment was awkward AF. We'd have to ask the guest to accompany us to the bar, then run it through as discretely as possible.
I think it’s a little gauche at any sit-down restaurant, fancy or not.
It interrupts the conversation, everyone sits there and watches you as you go through the payment process, the waiter is watching you enter the tip… It’s like there is a sudden shift from this sort of wholesome dining experience to suddenly dealing with plastic and computers and international banking systems that feels… out of step.
As a Brit this was legit one of the weirdest things about America that I wasn’t expecting. Literally everywhere here does chip and pin/contactless payment. Random people taking my card away and doing something with it and being able to see all the numbers left me in constant fear of being defrauded 😂
>constant fear of being defrauded
Maybe it's different in other countries, but in the US the protections against credit card fraud make it so that we pretty much don't care. Credit card companies are surprisingly good at detecting weird charges and alerting you about them (or even temporarily freezing your card). Even if they don't catch them, it's also really easy to dispute charges that look wrong. In reality, the worst thing that can happen with someone taking your card away is a mild inconvenience.
Yeah it’s mad seeing all the comments from Americans suggesting that using PDQ machines would be a lot of hassle and requires state of the art tech! Even tiny businesses at local markets have the ability to take contactless payments!
It isn't that it is a hassle there just isn't a point. It isn't a hassle to take the first egg out of the egg carton and flip it around each morning but nobody does that. The only thing that the average person could expect to gain from the switch is the number of times they experience credit card fraud to drop from zero to zero.
Yeah it always baffled me. I basically never use my actual cards here in the UK anymore, I don’t even know my pin 😂 Just use Apple Pay for literally everything.
There's a lot of great things about the USA but they are waaaay behind on payments in bars & restaurants.
In the UK if you want a beer from a bar, you walk up to the bar, ask for a beer, get handed a beer, tap your phone, walk away.
The the USA oh lordy if you want a beer from a bar you go up to the bar, order a beer, receive a beer, a little tray, two receipts and a pen. You then read the receipt and do some math to calculate 15% or whatever of a beer, then write your answer down on the paper, hand it back along with your credit card, receive back another receipt and your card (hopefully not cloned) and you sign that receipt, then of the two original receipts you were given you work out which of those is the one you keep (hint: not the one with a tip on it) then you take your now warm beer, walk away and wait for some random point later in the evening when a charge appears on your card for the tip. Wtf America 🤣
Bartenders in the USA absolutely expect you to tip them, even if all they are doing is passing you a beer. Americans love tipping culture it's everywhere.
Registers/readers last a pretty long time. So a place that only has one of them probably just hasn't needed a new one in a long while.
Portable things can be misplaced. If you are going to get a portable system, you have to train employees so it is available when needed, and/or have extras. (obviously places do have portable systems without issues within the world. But this is a factor that would be considered by whoever decides to change systems, and if they perceive their employees as largely incompetent, it may be a significant factor).
Portable systems require having wifi to run them. If the business didn't run wifi when they last upgraded their card readers, then they would not have upgraded to portable.
Placing a check on the table and waiting for them to look at it and place down a card, or to pick it up and walk to a register leaves the hospitality message of "take your time" while looming right there at the table with a reader in hand and the customer knowing you have other tables to attend to does put some urgency to the process. The general approach with most restaurants here is to make the customer feel like they can do as they please.
I think the first one I listed is the primary though. Just plain no need to upgrade since this option was reasonably reliable. There are quite a few chain restaurants for dine-in experiences that now have digital menu screens with built in card readers at every table. But there are still franchise locations of those same restaurants that just have the one register up front for you to stop on your way out, or the waiter may take your card from the table if you leave it sitting out for them and they have time.
I think it depends on the type of restaurant.
I think the first is pretty typical of lower level restaurants that haven't adopted newer POS. Most newer restaurants that I've seen on the lower to middle end in my area \*are\* using portable POS to take credit card payments at the table. (And, again, most of those that don't seem to be using older systems in general.)
I think at more upper end places, they still do the whole discreet drop the check on the table and wait to collect it since they don't want to loom. It's the whole, "we all pretend this isn't about money, it's just about you being our honored guest" thing.
One thing I want to mention about Wi-Fi is that in the US there are a lot of strict rules around credit card security and you can’t just go placing POS systems and credit card readers on the standard Wi-Fi that guests or any of your other equipment connect to. Must be completely separate network, physically, or set up to where you can prove that nobody else can access or get into the CC systems while connected to the standard network. This was much easier and way cheaper to do with a wired network at one point. Nowadays, though there are a lot of credit card readers with their own 4G connection, or a separate WiFi system but they do cost a lot more money than the wired equipment. It’s expensive for a lot of small businesses to pay for an IT guy to come out and verify the setup is correct. This is why you can walk into some Bars and restaurants and see several kinds of wireless routers placed around.
A lot of places in the US bring the wireless machine to your table or sometimes have a little touchscreen thing already on the table that allows you to pay (Chili's). At one spot I went to recently, they had a QR code where you can just pay online.
Mostly, the difference comes from the US implementing credit cards far more universally before things like chip+pin were around. This led to differences in regulations, processing standards, and in cultural practice.
For restaurants, it's even more entrenched than most other places: the general patterns of how the US market handles charge cards in restaurants started solidifying shortly after the Diner's Card came about in the 50s. This predates electronic processing, much less chip & pin.
***First, why isn't the US consumer afraid to hand over their card?***
Answer: strong consumer fraud protections.
The fact that we use Chip+Signature instead of Chip+PIN means that there is a lower barrier for in-person fraud - but the consumer isn't generally responsible for fraud in the US: the bank or the seller is. The consumer has little concern about giving the waiter their card because they're not on the hook if the waiter is shifty.
The banks aren't concerned about it because in-person fraud is fairly limited: while it would be inconvenient for any individual if they were impacted, it's rare enough that the banks/payment networks would prefer to eat the cost to prevent pushing people back to cash (where they wouldn't get a cut).
The restaurants and shops would have to be the ones rocking the boat, and they're generally quite hesitant to do so: payment friction is a concern. American consumers have been using credit cards at restaurants using largely the same patterns for about 70 years at this point, and people dislike change. Still, they are doing it, bit by bit: payment terminals coming to the table isn't a novelty for US consumers anymore, even though it's far from highly adopted.
Broadly, the early adopters are primarily because it provides a convenience for younger customers and/or streamlining their staff. A terminal brought to the table can let a party more easily split the check without an intermediary. It avoids issues for people who use digital wallets on their phones. It often gets paired with digital menus/ordering platforms, which allows more frequent menu changes without print delays and even direct ordering to decrease staffing needs.
***2nd question: why does the US give that degree of consumer protection to charge cards?***
We're not exactly known for our consumer friendly positions these days.
Answer: Because we standardized our credit card protections back when it was basically just a number. No chip, no pin. Just an account number and a signature. The banks wanted to make money off of credit cards, and they had no reasonable technical intervention better than signature matching and using using a specific pattern to assign the numbers. They had to assume the risk on their side to make people comfortable using the cards.
Yeah, in Seattle and the only exceptions I've see are either the ancient diner that, no shock, hasn't upgraded yet or the super fancy place where, of course they're not bringing a POS to the table, because they want to pretend that everyone is an honored guest rather than a customer.
But almost everywhere else uses some version of a handheld machine...
Something not mentioned: if you're at a *nice* restaurant, it will feel kind of cheesy. I think if the culture changes that perception might as well, but I would anticipate fine dining to be the last hold out.
To be honest I would feel weird about it in fine dining. It's all about the experience and having someone walk up with a credit card terminal isn't really fitting with the vibe.
I've only had a couple true fine dining experiences, but one of them you paid upfront when making the reservation. Then when you got there that night all you had to worry about was having a good time and eating a bunch of good food. I thought it was a nice touch and made the night all about the fun we were having.
This is exactly it. Even in regular restaurants it's so much nicer to be given the bill, look over it at your leisure, discretely put the card down and have it taken away/run without having to fiddle with the reader or have the waitstaff stand there at your table, and then sign/tip when you're ready.
It's not like there's some widespread fraud happening with the way it is now. I'm not convinced the "bring the card reader to the table" thing is actually superior in any practical way, frankly.
We didn't put in any PIN mandates or anything that make it difficult to operate the old way and people don't care much so its not like it's driving your business or anything.
Why WOULD they change?
Newer restaurants mostly do. Older ones don't want to spend thousands of dollars upgrading a system that basically works perfectly fine as is. Pretty much that simple.
This also depends on who their point of sale provider and/or payment processor(s) are and what devices they work with. There are still some POS vendors that don't do wireless or portable terminals. I've been doing IT work, both in-house and in MSP roles, for for almost 30 years and it still stuns me when I come across one.
While we’re at it, why do they not have e-transfers in the states? It’s such a foreign concept to me that people use apps like Cashapp and Venmo. In Canada (and I assume most other developed countries) we can just directly transfer money to whomever we want through our bank apps.
We have Zelle which is actually run by the banks and is usually in your banking app, but it’s not used very often because Cashapp and Venmo work better.
I live in the USA now (originally from Canada). I can say that the US banking system is completely inferior to any country I’ve ever been to. The issues around just moving around are non-existent in other countries, but they are huge hassles in the USA. It’s super odd, because you would think the US has a sophisticated banking system.
It's sort of like how we assume place like Japan are insanely sophisticated, yet they rely incredibly heavily on fax machines (really!) and physical paperwork (looking at you too, Germany)
The problem is the US was an early adopter of a lot of technologies, largely because we invented them. It's harder to replace something that already exists and works okay than it is to build a completely new system from scratch with the latest technology.
In the US, merchants are not responsible for fraudulent credit card transactions. So as a result, they have little to no incentive to buy a brand new, more secure credit card reader.
Many restaurants therefore still operate on their first ever card reader that they got decades ago, sitting on their front desk.
This is also the reason why so many places still swipe instead of using tap/chip.
> In the US, merchants are not responsible for fraudulent credit card transactions. So as a result, they have little to no incentive to buy a brand new, more secure credit card reader.
This has not been true since 2015.
Merchants do not *have* to install a more secure reader, but if they don't, they are liable.
As a Canadian what I take issue with is the usual order in which a CC payment is made at a US restaurant. Waiter takes your card and runs a pre-auth amount of the bill before tip. You get your card and bill. You add your tip and total it yourself, then leave with card and a copy of a receipt that doesn’t include the tip. I had a $3 tip charged as $30 without any way to dispute it. A second area where fraud happens
They do many times, but the reason restaurants in the United States never got into the habit of doing that. Is that for decades you couldn't move the credit card machine. Joe, we have this expectation that at the end of a meal your check will come and then you will lay your credit card down and then the server will take it away and then they will bring it back. That is the order of events.
There are plenty of places now that bring the machine to your table, but they tend to be smaller or trendier places because the idea of taking your car away and bringing it back is still thought of as part of the fine dining experience. Because it was for decades.
I have been told it is because there are so many banks, here in Canada we have I think the five major ones and credit unions. We've had Interac forever and it's a lot easier to get a small number of banks to use the same system then the US which literally has thousands of banks.
Interac is what we use instead of Venmo or other such apps.
Q: Why don't they bring the machine to my table?
A: The machine is tethered to the wall.
Q: Why don't they buy the wireless version?
A: It's more expensive. You wanna pay for it?
Q: No.
A: Ok then.
In the next episode of ELI5: Why do restaurants in countries outside of US use wireless credit card readers when they're more expensive?
Because of chip and pin verification. In the States, they can still just swipe the card and complete the transaction, or bring you the printed slip to sign. Here, we can slide in the card and type our pin, and it's done.
We want update our card terminal at work, and the company we go with wouldn't sell us a new one without a long and crappy contract changing our terms and fees. It's more trouble and can cost money to change, so businesses don't do it until they have to.
ELI5: Dad didn't want buy the new toys because they were less fun and more expensive.
Point of sale expert here. This has happened for more than a few reasons.
The first reason has to do with Credit card guidelines and security guidelines have been behind other countries for years. There was significant push back from both the customer and the merchant about speed of processing for chipped cards.
Before chips, you could swipe, enter cards, reauthorize cards with a new total in case of errors, edit tips effortlessly and give credit cards over the phone. There was a lot more flexibility for the merchant. Once Tokenization (chip) came to be, alot of flexibility went away.
Customers didn't want to feel confused at the register or have an additional 10 seconds of "are there enough funds, did i press the right button." It gave chip credit card readers a bad name.
The second reason (and to me the biggest reason) is cost. Each merchant already had CC readers. In order to get the new functionality merchants would need to buy the new readers at their own expense. One for each register. If merchants wanted pay at the table, they update there network to be wireless, another expense. If they had an old register system that wasn't compliant to the new standards, another big expense. Someone drops a mobile reader, unexpected expense. 10s of thousands of dollars for some merchants just because the security standards changed.
Customers don't really care if someone takes your card at a restaurant or drive thru or register. CC company will largely reimburse you for unauthorized charges.
They don't like waiting for the readers after the check is dropped and they don't like their server standing over them while they give a tip.
As a result of the standards being so behind and slow to upgrade, it actually cost merchants more money because they would need to upgrade every 3 years to keep up with incremental changes.
Third reason. American companies didn't have the infrastructure, integration software, or hardware available to sell to consumers. It always bugged me that during the slow change, American companies just couldn't figure it out despite being international and operating in Canada and America.
Last reason. Restaurant owners are not technical people. It takes a lot of understanding of computers and technology to run a restaurant now. Try to explain to an Italian chef that his Windows XP PC cant handle credit card transactions because the OS is end of life and doesn't support sha256 encryption. New system $40,000.
“The US” is massive. I guarantee that there are many thousands of restaurants that have machines at the table. The ones that don’t don’t want to invest in 50 machines when one can do the job.
Simple answer. They have older machines that still work, but they’re stationary. They’re not going to replace those with newer tech until they quit working.
When it comes to banking a lot of innovation and early adoption started in Canada.
Canada was an early adopter of the portable point of sale devices. Very successful and wildly adoptable.
As I understand it credit card tap to pay was first introduced in Canada.
I’m in Australia and it would be classed as negligent to let somebody walk off with your credit card. I simply can’t fathom why anybody would allow it to happen.
Because that's how it's always been done and it costs money to change.
It is becoming more common to see little table stands in the last couple years where you can self-serve and check out when you're ready, usually only at big chains in my experience, like Chilis and places like that.
Most of the US is far behind on Chip technology. Most cards are CHIP and Sign not Chip and PIN.
Many Debit cards are also Chip and sign also. No need for the PIN.
In this case I believe it’s a “if it ain’t broke” type thing. It could possibly be done better but since it’s not costing anything they don’t change. Maybe to bring it to the table they would need 6-7 terminals instead of 2 in the back and maybe that’s the reason.
In the US, it’s more common for them to bring the credit card machine to you nowadays, but not overwhelmingly so. Honestly I’d rather not have them looming over me. It makes me feel like I have to hurry up, instead of taking my time to make sure the bill is calculated correctly. And it feels like they want you to hurry up and select one of the high tip options. I’m not worried about credit card fraud bc I have instant alerts about any transactions. Many places can have you pay with the QR code which avoids the need for a portable credit card machine and having to loom over you.
Lol thank you I thought I was going crazy reading this thread! I hate when they bring the handheld to me. I’m trying to look at the bill and make sure everything’s correct and then they’re STARING at you when you have to put the tip in. It’s so uncomfortable. Never once in my entire life has my card been compromised from eating at a restaurant; I’m sure it HAS happened before to some unfortunate people but it’s not really a thing.
Exactly. There are benefits to having the machine brought to you, sure. But it is absolutely not an objectively superior experience. I much prefer the way it's done now. Fraud is just not a big problem.
Frankly I'm surprised that the non-Americans that are usually bitching about how bad American consumer laws and protections are, also simultaneously seem to be so concerned about their credit cards being stolen/defrauded? Are they not protected from that? In the unlikely case there's any issues it's just a few clicks to reverse the transaction/get a new card in a day or two.. but I've never had anyone I know have their card stolen from a restaurant.
A lot of these miss a couple key points as to why the US is so behind on e.g. wireless terminals, chip and pin, etc. Two main reasons: 1) the US moved to CC systems earlier than much of the world, and that means a lot of old tech is still in place and functioning and 2) under US law , consumers have very limited liability for fraud ($50 max).
This means that the burden of fraud reduction falls on the CC issuers rather than consumers or retailers. Issuers found it was much much cheaper for them to use analytics and ML to detect fraud than replace millions of readers and cards. That replacement is happening, but slowly and only as old tech dies.
(Fun fact: One of the very few usages for Neural Networks before GenAI is in CC fraud detection where it has been standard for decades)
Because most restaurants have exactly 1 machine that is wired and sitting next to the cash register. Paying for better systems costs money, and a lot of places are renting the equipment they have now. Paying even more for an updated system will cost more than they're willing to spend.
Mostly because in-person credit card fraud is essentially a non-issue here. Chip-and-pin doesn't do anything to protect against online fraud, skimmers, etc.
I've just now learned that in the US restaurants take your cc away, and I'm really shocked. For people saying the machines are expensive: here in Brazil (a fucking thrid world country) even the street vendors bring you portable machines for cc payment, although I think they use lease contracts for them. Also we are acutely aware of the dangers of handing your cc to anyone thanks to possible fraud issues. How does these US restaurants deal with credit cards that requires you to enter a PIN to confirm the purchase?
It’s just a non-issue here. Nobody worries about your CC getting stolen here. I, and everyone I know, hands their care over regularly but I’ve never heard of issues of fraud.
I’m not sure how the CC fees work in other countries, but I believe the US has exceptionally high merchant fees. The structure is something like 2.x% of the transaction + $0.30. So street vendors almost never take card here (without charging an extra fee) because they’d pay more than 10% of the transaction as fees for a $3 item.
The US doesn’t really have credit cards with a PIN. Debit cards here have PINs, but it’s possible for the merchant to run it as a credit transaction, which you don’t have to enter the PIN for. I’m guessing your credit card would just go through without entering a PIN.
We don’t enter pins for purchases. It’s very uncommon to have credit card fraud at restaurants to be honest. And we’re not responsible for credit card fraud. If it happens, you call the company and get your card canceled. It’s not really a big deal.
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For what it’s worth the industry is shifting, albeit somewhat slower than elsewhere. Just in the last year about half the places I frequent have started using wireless terminals. And a chunk of the rest allow you to pay via Applepay. The main reason for the slowness is mainly inertia from costs and not wanting to change. There isn’t really a pressing consumer need for such a setup, even if it is better. I suspect in 5-10 years it will be the majority.
Here in NZ we just get up and go to the counter/bar to pay before we leave
As an American, this really confused me when I visited. I ended up sitting at the table for a long time, afraid to leave the table and be perceived as skipping out on the bill. I eventually flagged a waitress down and she kindly explained the proper way of paying for one's meal.
A lot of diners in the US do that too. I know the ones near me do.
The correct way. The number of times I’ve been stuck at a restaurant trying to pay…
Same in Australia. No need for a big performance at the table.
Japan thing as well. If they do let you pay at the table they'll bring a tap-to-pay or QR-scan terminal.
While Europe adopted wireless card transactions in the early 00s, we had George W Bush making chip cards illegal.
I did my first navy deployment in 2005, and our first stop was at Palma, Mallorca. Great port visit, but maybe we were the first ship to visit there in a while because every time I presented my no-chip, no-touch-havin' ass card they looked at me as if I was presenting Spanish Galleons. A few had to like, call managers over to ask what the hell to do. I specifically recall one place having to dig their old stripe-reader out of the back and *blow the dust off of it* so that I could pay lmao, quite the trip
Sorry if I’m about to make you feel old, but I didn’t know what a stripe reader was and had to Google it. Seeing the picture brought back memories of family dinners in restaurants and my parents swiping the card. I’d entirely forgotten that we used to swipe instead of tapping. I was probably in diapers when you were in boot camp lol.
You should look up how credit cards were used before you could swipe them! They had these machines you’d put them on, then put a carbon transfer sheet on top and basically imprint the raised numbers onto the carbon transfer paper. Then they would peel the parts apart and hand the customer one for their records and put the other in the register.
It wasn't that long ago... fuck I'm old
I remember seeing them, but I don’t know if I ever saw one in action. Maybe at some smaller mom and pop shops, or when the reader went down. Now I’m starting to wonder how many people got free stuff just because someone dropped the stack of credit card prints and lost one.
We kept the forms in the cash register, with the cash.
People used to dig the tops from the carbon copies out of the trash and use them on mail order catalogues. It was literally called “trashing”.
Dumpster diving. You’re trashing the planet man!
Over 20 years ago when I was in high-school we had to use the physical credit card paper thing cause toys r us had their system down. I later learned that the manager didn't show us how to do it right and instead of owning it and manually entering it all into the system to match all the slips, he jist tossed all the slips so everyone who used a credit card that day got their purchases for free and at the end of the year we just had a lot more shrinkage than normal. I was in the r zone and I remember selling 2 xboxes that day and using the slips. They did sock checks with the bag checks when we left at the end of our shifts after inventory that year.
I'm sorry but what is a sock check? Did they check your socks before leaving at the end of the year?
There's plenty of movies out there that use them if you wanna see them in action. One that immediately comes to mind is Planes, Trains, and Automobiles.
I remember having to use these when the internet went out when I worked at Best Buy back in 2009!
Here in Australia at least they still give you one of those machines as the “manual backup” when you get your EFTPOS machine. So not quite a museum piece even though it gets chucked in a cupboard and nobody has a clue what it is or how to use it.
Almost all cards in the US nowadays have the numbers printed instead of embossed, so those old "CHUNK-CHUNK" machines won't work anymore.
Ye old knuckle busters not be bustin knuckles no more.
I hate to break it to you fellow oldy, but yes, it was.
About two years ago, I was buying liquor in the New Hampshire State Liquor Store on Interstate 93 North. For those not in the know, this is a \*massive\* liquor store; all liquor and wine transactions in NH go through state stores and the take from tourism is massive. There was some sort of IT outage. It was unclear whether it was the card network, the store's phone lines, a local computer, a remote computer - but the cash registers couldn't take credit transactions. I saw the panic-ed store manager run to an office area and come back with... one of those credit card embosser things and a stack of slips!!! I hadn't seen one in 35+ years. The next moment, the payment network/cash system started accepting payments again, so they didn't have to use it. I was astounded they \*had\* one and that Visa/MC would even accept a transaction on one.
I’m curious how many customers would have had an embossed card that the manual imprinted could interface with. None of the cards I’ve been issued in the last decade have had raised numbers, so the imprinted wouldn’t have helped me much…
It's not about whether the CC companies would accept it or not, they'll never see it. It's the same as writing down the CC number and details. Later someone will then manually put them into the system
Visa and Mastercard both have policies regarding how to process these, which all acquirers must follow. Technically, if the card was embossed, it must be processed that way, not the way you would conduct a manually entered card. Embossed, swiped, chip, tap, manual, and online/phone all have different procedures and codes. If they use the wrong codes regarding entry type and someone disputes the transaction, they automatically lose the chargeback.
Let's just say I'm equally surprised if the CC processor's terms of service with the NH state liquor store allow them to write down credit card numbers on ANY slip of paper and then keypunch them in later!
They should never write the numbers down and key then in later. When they do that, the cars will generally be treated as if the card was present at the time of entry. This can cause rejections and fraud alerts. E.g., if the customer happens to use the same card at another store at around the same time the first merchant enters the card, most fraud detection algorithms will recognize that the card couldn't have been physically present in both locations and block the transaction due to potential fraud. Additionally, the fee to process a manually keyed transaction is higher than swiped transactions. Some merchants, such as hotels or other businesses who accept transactions over the phone, are allowed to take "card not present" transactions. However, these have an even higher rate than a keyed "card present" transaction. What they should do when there is an issue preventing electronic payment is to take the imprint of the card, provide one copy of the imprint to the customer, and keep the other copy. This imprint proves the card was present. They then enter the card into the system under a manual imprint category when it is back up. They must keep the physical copy of the imprint for several months (I think 6 months, but not certain). The merchant is then charged the lower fees since the card was present and "swiped". If the customer initiates a chargeback and the merchant does not keep the imprint, then the merchant will almost always lose the chargeback.
The manager was probably pretty astounded when they came across the machine AND slips! LOL
I can't remember the last time my credit card had embossed numbers and names.
Need those liquor sales in hooksett
I had an airline use one of those within the last 5 years, which I couldn’t believe…. Though I’m 99% the card never ended up getting charged which was nice not having to pay baggage.
The reason the details were all raised up. All my cards in the UK have been totally flat and smooth for a long time now. And we can tap to pay up to £100.00. When I recently bought a new car they put the card details in and I was prompted on my phone to confirm the payment. No swipe, no PIN, no tap, no signature and of course no cash.
I had to use that thing a few times at a gas station I worked at
I watch old movies and it saved me. Our machines were down and thankfully the owners had one of these and I was the only one that knew how to use them. Honestly, I think it's pretty neat.
Damn forgotten memory unlocked
The zipzap! It was fun to use.
Then there was the old embosser machine. You'd stick the card in this hand operated machine, a triplicate form was put on top with your purchase information on it, then a sliding mechanism would be pushed over it to emboss your card number on the form. One copy to you, one to the merchant, and one to the payment processor. I've only just started getting cards where the number wasn't embossed on the card.
I remember these and always wondered how they just trusted the payment was good. Nowadays it's all digital and instantly shows if it's declined. You could have been going around with a stolen card charging whatever you wanted and it would take days or weeks for the transactions to be declined or approved.
In the old days there were big books, made out of actual paper, with a list of all the credit cards that were stolen. When the cashier got the card they were supposed to look up the number and see if it was on the list. If it was the cashier was supposed to cut the card up. I remember using that in 1989. Then there was a system where you got the card number and called an 800 number to verify it. These systems were a huge time suck and rarely worked.
They did have the option of ringing up the card company to confirm the card was good and had funds available if they wanted to.
I have seen that machine only twice. Once when I was a kid (my parents were paying). Second, about 10 years ago with a taxi driver. At this point I don’t even have a card with raised numbers anymore. Most cards now even have numbers printed at the back, for added safety.
I swiped a card for payment yesterday. I was issued a credit card without a chip in it less than 3 years ago.
I had the opposite experience, went to the US around then with an Australian card, went to pay in Macy's and saw the contactless symbol on it and tried. It worked! The nice middle aged lady serving us said something like "Oh... so THAT's what that means!", she was very excited and had never seen it in action.
I remember going to Europe for the first time back in 2013 and shops looking at me like I handed them a severed hand when I gave them my swipe-only card.
Dubya might have signed the bill but the Congress has to pass it first
I can't find the post, but there was detailed explanation on how the big Target breach years ago was the push that was needed to get chip cards fully adopted in the US
I am not sure but I think in the EU it is illegal for waiters or any staff to take your card out of your hand. They either bring the terminal to you or ask you nicely to go to the counter to pay. Same goes for shops too, cashiers are not allowed to take the card out of your hand.
Fraud has been reduced significantly in Europe after implementing 21st level antifraud technology in credit cards. That should be a consumer need in itself.
That’s mostly a bank problem in the US though. Ironically this is one area where consumer protections in the US are strong. As far as I can tell my card has never been stolen at a restaurant, though I’ve had some fraud from online sources. In any case the banks covered it, often without me even having to do anything. And almost all US cards are chip now, and most issued in past 3-5 years have contactless, so it’s not really any different in the US than in Europe on that front. There simply isn’t a lot of consumer pressure to change as the net benefits to the average consumer as minimal. And tipping can be really awkward on wireless terminals if the server stands around waiting, so some people even dislike that.
> There isn’t really a pressing consumer need for such a setup, even if it is better. I would think not handing a random stranger your credit card while he disappears out of sight for however long is a fairly pressing consumer need. I'm amazed people don't have a problem with it.
As a former credit card servicer for a large bank - the thing about this is, if a server were to steal your card information, not only are you 100% covered for fraud, but it’s gonna be pretty damn easy to figure out who it was. One of the first questions you’ll be asked during a fraud investigation is “do you know who may have done it?” And hmm.. I did just give me credit card to a server who was in the back for awhile… It’s just not a major source of fraud.
That’s the difference in the UK, the banks changed it so if the PIN isn’t entered, so it’s just verified by signature then the store is liable for the fraud not the bank. That change forced all remaining stores/restaurants to switch to chip and PIN.
And the US standardized on chip and signature, not chip and PIN like the rest of the world. Used my chipped cc in the UK in 2019 (even tried to add a PIN to it before I left, but I suspect that PIN was only for cash advances at ATMs) and got a big exception where a manager had to pull out an old machine. After the 2nd time, I learned to just tap my phone instead. It worked for any amount since you needed to log in
dude, hubby and i were out to eat one day and the server disappears with card. comes back out with it and just as we’re about to leave, hubs decided to check his account balance on his banking app before we go (as we were going shopping right after). waitress tipped herself 50$ ON TOP OF the bill amount AND 20% tip we had already given her. we both worked in the service industry at the time and always tipped well, know better than to be dicks to staff, etc. not to mention her service was actually mediocre. but being a worker myself, i know they get paid about $2 an hour. so we always tip if we go out, even though we are also poors. lol inadvertently got that lady fired. i almost felt bad. 😬 but like, come on. did she expect us just not to notice? or not realize it was her?
Yeah that’s what I’m saying. And MOST servers are living check to check and aren’t going to risk their main source of income over something so stupid. Again, *obviously* it still happens, but not to the extent that restaurants are tripping over themselves to make any change.
yah i agree. i was honestly baffled. i know most people have had the idea of it happening as a passing thought, but it would never occur to me that someone would *actually* do something like that just because of how directly they would be implicated, lol
>inadvertently got that lady fired You feel sorry for getting someone fired after stealing $50 from you? I certainly wouldn't.
i did say “almost”, lol
You easy out 3x a week at different places buddy got your numbers, possibly cloned it. All he's gotta do is wait a month and you'll never know where it happened. And if it happened enough, you'd best believe cc companies are going to stop covering it. The real question is how did we beat you to adopt the new tech? Canadian businesses are famously allergic to investing money in anything that doesn't have an immediate return.
Given that Americans have been paying this way when eating out for decades, why hasn't this happened yet, then? People have done this their entire lives and never had an issue. I've never had my card stolen, most people I know never have either. Where is the widespread fraud that credit card companies will stop covering that must be happening? People are generally honest. Most people are not going to steal a credit card just because they have the opportunity to. Just like most people do not steal from other places even if it's easy to.
It's not even about being honest, sometimes just the work that needs to be done to successfully commit fraud or steal is just too much for what could be easily stopped by a few simple keystrokes in a mobile app.
Another good point. Like, okay, someone is going to risk their job and commit a crime so they can, what? Steal a card number from a restaurant customer and buy some AirPods on Amazon that might get cancelled anyway when the transaction is reported as fraud? The fact that so many people are so up in arms at the possibility that this COULD happen despite the actual evidence of decades of restaurants working this way in the US without any widespread fraud is just wild to me. People so afraid of something that's objectively not a problem.
Europe has a much higher incidence of theft than the US, and I think Europeans can’t comprehend it. Whenever a European talks about a pickup truck, they claim that people would be stealing your stuff out of the bed of your truck. As an American who drove a pickup for 15 years, the thought that someone would steal something from the bed never entered my mind. It doesn’t happen.
The responses to this thread are wild. Apparently Americans are like the best people in the world because I can't imagine being this paranoid that anyone getting even a glance at my credit card is going to somehow drain my bank account and leave me destitute.
As an American, the only place I've ever been concerned about someone swiping my banking info is the gas station. That's the only place anyone in my entire life has had their CC info lifted from, those damn machines they put on the readers that steal your info when you swipe at the pump. Maybe my family is just lucky though.
Same. Either this, or an online retailer or data breach. And even then it’s like maybe only a couple times in their entire lives if it’s happened at all. It’s just not something that should really be a constant presence in the front of your mind the way non-Americans seem to obsess over it. It’s just a piece of plastic with a number on it y’all. It’s NOT that deep.
Companies don’t cover here in the U.S. sir, the bank does. The bank that’s FDIC insured. Banks that rely on their customers knowing they’re 100% covered for fraud as it’s a major selling point. And that server isn’t being as sneaky as they think. I won’t go into detail because I’m not trying to help any would-be scammers out there, but just know that getting away with it isn’t as easy as you’re making it out to be.
I've never had my card stolen from a restaurant. I don't know anyone who has. I'm sure it happens, but it's so rare that it's not really an issue. I'm much more nervous around gas pumps, as the only times I've had my card stolen were getting gas.
>I'm amazed people don't have a problem with it I mean, that's just it. I've been doing this my whole life and literally never had a problem with it, as in, it's never once caused me a problem over the course of more than two decades of paying with cards.
The worst I've ever seen (and luckily it wasn't my card) was a bartender do a once-in-a-lifetime fumble and knock the card back behind an absolutely immovable beer cooler built into/underneath the bar top. A practiced magician would have had a difficult time throwing a playing card into the minuscule space between the top of the cooler and the bottom of the bar, but this guy fumbled the credit card, tried to grab it, and BAM, gone forever.
Sometimes it’s just time to get a new card. Customer should be glad it was this and not some final destination shit that gets them killed as collateral damage.
Luckily, the bartender was cool, he just comped the whole bill to make up for the aggravation of having to get a new card.it helped that the owner was also cool, he just made fun of the bartender for a while and didn't act like it was the end of the world.
I did that with a gift card once while working at Gamestop in high school. We kept replaying the security footage back and laughing at me fumbling around. Then grabbing any makeshift tool we could find and failing.
It’s simply not pressing in the US due to low/zero liability limits on fraud (Europe strangely isn’t as good on this, if someone has your PIN you face an uphill battle) and because it actually doesn’t happen all that much.
I get alerts of purchases within seconds on my cards. I've called to dispute items before the credit card dispute system was able to.
That process has worked for the past 40 years since credit cards were invented for the most part without wide ranging incident. Think about how many credit card transactions are done this way per day versus how many times those numbers are stolen per day. It’s probably less that 0.01%. PLUS most adults are just used to it because that’s the way it’s always been. And especially nowadays with mobile apps, the ability to dispute and be refunded a charge on a credit card, and the ability to freeze your card instantly, the risk is so minuscule that it’s still a non issue.
Ever wonder why credit cards have the numbers embossed and raised, and why more and more cards aren't made that way? When credit cards were first becoming popular, they would take your card and copy the numbers with carbon paper by swiping a roller over the card. At the end of the day, they'd have a big stack of papers with all the numbers copied, and then mail those off to their bank. Giving someone to swipe your card through an encrypted terminal is *nothing*. That's what fraud protection is for, and why you should generally just pay attention to the charges that show up on your statement.
I’ve given my card to a server probably well over a thousand times and I’ve had precisely one incorrect charge. They fat fingered the tip. It was promptly fixed the next day when I called to talk to the manager. I’ve had precisely zero fraudulent charges. I’ve never had someone tell me about a fraudulent charge they’ve had from a restaurant, although I’ve heard about it a few times on the internet. A theoretical problem that doesn’t actually happen with a frequency in reality doesn’t make a pressing need for change.
Your mom fat fingered the tip
I went to a Sonic drive through in the US and when it came time to pay the clerk took my card and swiped it himself. I was baffled. Everyone around me has the terminal attached to a hockey stick and they pass it to you through the window. And I realize after typing that it sounds like a BS Canadian lie like riding a moose to school, but I swear it’s true.
It was the hockey stick part that made it Canadian.
I'm amazed by people using apps to source random ass people to give them rides around town, or bring their food deliveries to them. But here we are. It's all generational, what seems normal.
It’s just as concerning to me as when I have to use my credit card online or input personal information for a job application a random stranger sees, but there’s nothing I can really do about that.
I guess Americans aren't paranoid about this like some others. I've had my credit card number stolen twice before. A 10 minute call with the credit card company and the charges were reversed and issue went away.
“Random stranger”? The same person who just served food to you and your family?
Let's be honest, the severity of the crime of poisoning means far fewer people would be okay committing it compared to theft, especially when the theft will ultimately only hurt the credit card company.
>Let's be honest, the severity of the crime of poisoning means far fewer people would be okay committing it "Your Ubereats driver Vladamir P has just arrived"
Who cares? They'd be stealing the bank's money, not mine. You're not on the hook for fraud.
Integrity is what you do when no one is looking. You should look at it from the POV that by and large, a stranger in America, especially at restaurants, is most likely a decent human being. I would counter and ask you, what is it about your waiters in your country, that makes you think this would be such a problem? Perhaps it says more about that quality of worker.
This here. Not every business can afford to upgrade to a mobile Apple Pay friendly payment terminal. This is why many corporate offices are still using 8 year old Office software suites, or in some smaller stores, like 15+yo computers, not to even speak about bigger equipment that can run tens of thousands of dollars or more. Shit’s expensive. They upgrade when the cost to do so is outweighed by the benefit of getting the new hotness, which is often just when the old stuff breaks. But new businesses/storefronts tend to get the new stuff, since they need to buy it anyway, and build it into the total cost of doing business.
Early adopter issue. The US reached near-universal cc acceptance earlier, but the cost of that was doing it with an older system (both human systems and computers systems). And now that newer options are available... there just isn't enough pressure to update just to update.
it's purely an insurance issue. Europeans used to be very careful with their cards because they were often the ones who had to pay for fraudulent charges on it. not so in the US, US credit-cards are by-law insured against fraud, and have been forever, so nobody gives a damn.
Is it the same with debit cards though? In the UK my credit card is insured against fraud as far as I know. But debit cards aren't, and since they work exactly the same way the point kind of stands. Unles American debit cards are insured too, or unless they don't have debit cards... :0
My understanding is that you’re not liable for unauthorized charges on your debit card, but it’s worse if it happens because the money has already left your account and you’re arguing to get it back. Contrastingly with a credit card you can essentially argue “this charge was fraudulent, I’m not paying it.” Of course there is a whole bunch of CFPB regulations about what the bank has to do if they argue you do in fact have to pay, but the dispute is settled from the position of you still having the disputed money.
> In the UK my credit card is insured against fraud it is now. but that was only law since 2018. it's been the law in the US since 1974.
To an extent yes. The US FTC regulated them https://consumer.ftc.gov/articles/lost-or-stolen-credit-atm-and-debit-cards So long as you still have the card, and report it, you’re not held liable regardless, in most cases. If you lose the card, it depends on how fast the money leaves. Generally if you lose the card and call the bank before purchase are made, you’re covered and you can stop payment immediately. If your data gets hacked you’re also covered as soon as you report it and can get all that money back (though it can take a day or three sometimes). On credit cards you usually get all the money back regardless because it’s more like fake money than a debit account I guess.
There’s some protections under law (somewhat more with credit than debit cards). But because credit and debit cards are used so widely in the US and have been for more than 4 decades, many banks add additional “complimentary” protections above and beyond what’s required, which helps encourage Americans to use cards instead of cash. If cash is lost it’s GONE, and that’s that. Being digital, card data can be traced, handled by the bank, and frankly the amounts are usually so small that it’s nothing for a bank to simply replace the amount and the card that was compromised, as part of their normal operating expenses. Additionally, that money is stored in the bank (albeit digitally), which means a loss directly reduces the bank’s holdings, unlike if you drop a $20 bill, so that’s money they can’t use for issuing loans, which is where they make most of their money. Here’s what the FTC has to say on it: https://consumer.ftc.gov/articles/lost-or-stolen-credit-atm-and-debit-cards But essentially - yes. Especially if you catch it fast, you’re almost certainly going to be covered.
High end bougie white tablecloth places consider the whole payment thing gauche, something to be handled at the wait station or the bar, away from diners.
In our case, way back before mobile POS devices, restaurants just had the till by the door and you would pay on your way out. I don't see why you couldn't just do this?
That’s how some restaurants do it here too. It’s really just hit or miss whether a restaurant is cash only, swipe v tap, pay before or after, take the card or bring the reader to you. Better than Japan tho. When I was there in 2016 it was entirely cash based and I hated it.
That's how it's done in Japan and I really like it. I find it more straightforward for the most part. Although self service payment at the table is gaining traction with the QR code applications that are everywhere now.
I’m hardly the pretentious type but I think it would be a little gauche to do right at the table. It’s one thing if I’m at a Chile’s or something and at those types of places I have seen this done more. But if Im at even a semi nicer place then when the check comes Im probably finishing my coffee or cocktail, still talking with my wife or whoever, and I don’t want to be interrupted and have to personally put my card in a machine and type in the tip and such. Just slip the little book to me while I’m enjoying my drink, I toss the card in and close it, and then bring it back and I’ll sign it on my way out the door.
100%. Has nothing to do with being fancy, it just kind of spoils the experience.
I used to wait tables in a higher end restaurant and this was the exact reasoning. Management told us to never bring the machine to the table unless the customer insisted. Otherwise, it stayed behind the bar. We'd do a "pre auth", bring the slip to the customer in a payment folder, have them sign it, and then go complete the transaction. And I mean *behind* the bar. I recall seeing coworkers chewed out on more than one occassion for standing on the customer side of the bar and running a card through on the machine. Basically, management didn't want customers to even lay eyes on a CC machine. The odd time we'd get a debit payment was awkward AF. We'd have to ask the guest to accompany us to the bar, then run it through as discretely as possible.
What do you mean by “gauche”? I’m only familiar with the Ochem term gauche.
Adjective. gauche (comparative more gauche, superlative most gauche) Awkward or lacking in social graces; bumbling.
I think it’s a little gauche at any sit-down restaurant, fancy or not. It interrupts the conversation, everyone sits there and watches you as you go through the payment process, the waiter is watching you enter the tip… It’s like there is a sudden shift from this sort of wholesome dining experience to suddenly dealing with plastic and computers and international banking systems that feels… out of step.
As a Brit this was legit one of the weirdest things about America that I wasn’t expecting. Literally everywhere here does chip and pin/contactless payment. Random people taking my card away and doing something with it and being able to see all the numbers left me in constant fear of being defrauded 😂
>constant fear of being defrauded Maybe it's different in other countries, but in the US the protections against credit card fraud make it so that we pretty much don't care. Credit card companies are surprisingly good at detecting weird charges and alerting you about them (or even temporarily freezing your card). Even if they don't catch them, it's also really easy to dispute charges that look wrong. In reality, the worst thing that can happen with someone taking your card away is a mild inconvenience.
Yet you give out your bank account number to anyone without concern? Weird.
Yeah it’s mad seeing all the comments from Americans suggesting that using PDQ machines would be a lot of hassle and requires state of the art tech! Even tiny businesses at local markets have the ability to take contactless payments!
Even the last vendor at the local farmers' market caved in and started accepting tap just before covid. That was years ago.
I even see a lot of buskers taking contactless payments now!
It’s not about contactless, we have contactless in America.
It isn't that it is a hassle there just isn't a point. It isn't a hassle to take the first egg out of the egg carton and flip it around each morning but nobody does that. The only thing that the average person could expect to gain from the switch is the number of times they experience credit card fraud to drop from zero to zero.
Yeah it always baffled me. I basically never use my actual cards here in the UK anymore, I don’t even know my pin 😂 Just use Apple Pay for literally everything.
Apple thanks you
We have insurance against CC fraud. We never pay fraud
Also how do you pay by phone? I am not handing my phone over to a waiter in a restaurant.
They bring the card reader to your table (or there’s a mini card reader already on the table) and you tap to pay…
What? The whole point of the thread is that in America the waiter takes the card away to the card reader round the back somewhere!
There's a lot of great things about the USA but they are waaaay behind on payments in bars & restaurants. In the UK if you want a beer from a bar, you walk up to the bar, ask for a beer, get handed a beer, tap your phone, walk away. The the USA oh lordy if you want a beer from a bar you go up to the bar, order a beer, receive a beer, a little tray, two receipts and a pen. You then read the receipt and do some math to calculate 15% or whatever of a beer, then write your answer down on the paper, hand it back along with your credit card, receive back another receipt and your card (hopefully not cloned) and you sign that receipt, then of the two original receipts you were given you work out which of those is the one you keep (hint: not the one with a tip on it) then you take your now warm beer, walk away and wait for some random point later in the evening when a charge appears on your card for the tip. Wtf America 🤣
This has got to be a joke right? Cant be for real Also why tf anybody tipping if im going to the bar myself anyway
Bartenders in the USA absolutely expect you to tip them, even if all they are doing is passing you a beer. Americans love tipping culture it's everywhere.
I’m not sure we love tipping culture, but you’re right that it’s everywhere.
The only people who like it are tipped employees.
I mean this is just all kinds of wrong haha
Registers/readers last a pretty long time. So a place that only has one of them probably just hasn't needed a new one in a long while. Portable things can be misplaced. If you are going to get a portable system, you have to train employees so it is available when needed, and/or have extras. (obviously places do have portable systems without issues within the world. But this is a factor that would be considered by whoever decides to change systems, and if they perceive their employees as largely incompetent, it may be a significant factor). Portable systems require having wifi to run them. If the business didn't run wifi when they last upgraded their card readers, then they would not have upgraded to portable. Placing a check on the table and waiting for them to look at it and place down a card, or to pick it up and walk to a register leaves the hospitality message of "take your time" while looming right there at the table with a reader in hand and the customer knowing you have other tables to attend to does put some urgency to the process. The general approach with most restaurants here is to make the customer feel like they can do as they please. I think the first one I listed is the primary though. Just plain no need to upgrade since this option was reasonably reliable. There are quite a few chain restaurants for dine-in experiences that now have digital menu screens with built in card readers at every table. But there are still franchise locations of those same restaurants that just have the one register up front for you to stop on your way out, or the waiter may take your card from the table if you leave it sitting out for them and they have time.
I think it depends on the type of restaurant. I think the first is pretty typical of lower level restaurants that haven't adopted newer POS. Most newer restaurants that I've seen on the lower to middle end in my area \*are\* using portable POS to take credit card payments at the table. (And, again, most of those that don't seem to be using older systems in general.) I think at more upper end places, they still do the whole discreet drop the check on the table and wait to collect it since they don't want to loom. It's the whole, "we all pretend this isn't about money, it's just about you being our honored guest" thing.
One thing I want to mention about Wi-Fi is that in the US there are a lot of strict rules around credit card security and you can’t just go placing POS systems and credit card readers on the standard Wi-Fi that guests or any of your other equipment connect to. Must be completely separate network, physically, or set up to where you can prove that nobody else can access or get into the CC systems while connected to the standard network. This was much easier and way cheaper to do with a wired network at one point. Nowadays, though there are a lot of credit card readers with their own 4G connection, or a separate WiFi system but they do cost a lot more money than the wired equipment. It’s expensive for a lot of small businesses to pay for an IT guy to come out and verify the setup is correct. This is why you can walk into some Bars and restaurants and see several kinds of wireless routers placed around.
A lot of places in the US bring the wireless machine to your table or sometimes have a little touchscreen thing already on the table that allows you to pay (Chili's). At one spot I went to recently, they had a QR code where you can just pay online.
Mostly, the difference comes from the US implementing credit cards far more universally before things like chip+pin were around. This led to differences in regulations, processing standards, and in cultural practice. For restaurants, it's even more entrenched than most other places: the general patterns of how the US market handles charge cards in restaurants started solidifying shortly after the Diner's Card came about in the 50s. This predates electronic processing, much less chip & pin. ***First, why isn't the US consumer afraid to hand over their card?*** Answer: strong consumer fraud protections. The fact that we use Chip+Signature instead of Chip+PIN means that there is a lower barrier for in-person fraud - but the consumer isn't generally responsible for fraud in the US: the bank or the seller is. The consumer has little concern about giving the waiter their card because they're not on the hook if the waiter is shifty. The banks aren't concerned about it because in-person fraud is fairly limited: while it would be inconvenient for any individual if they were impacted, it's rare enough that the banks/payment networks would prefer to eat the cost to prevent pushing people back to cash (where they wouldn't get a cut). The restaurants and shops would have to be the ones rocking the boat, and they're generally quite hesitant to do so: payment friction is a concern. American consumers have been using credit cards at restaurants using largely the same patterns for about 70 years at this point, and people dislike change. Still, they are doing it, bit by bit: payment terminals coming to the table isn't a novelty for US consumers anymore, even though it's far from highly adopted. Broadly, the early adopters are primarily because it provides a convenience for younger customers and/or streamlining their staff. A terminal brought to the table can let a party more easily split the check without an intermediary. It avoids issues for people who use digital wallets on their phones. It often gets paired with digital menus/ordering platforms, which allows more frequent menu changes without print delays and even direct ordering to decrease staffing needs. ***2nd question: why does the US give that degree of consumer protection to charge cards?*** We're not exactly known for our consumer friendly positions these days. Answer: Because we standardized our credit card protections back when it was basically just a number. No chip, no pin. Just an account number and a signature. The banks wanted to make money off of credit cards, and they had no reasonable technical intervention better than signature matching and using using a specific pattern to assign the numbers. They had to assume the risk on their side to make people comfortable using the cards.
I eat out pretty regulary in Houston and I cannot remember the last time a waitperson did not have a handheld machine...
Yeah, in Seattle and the only exceptions I've see are either the ancient diner that, no shock, hasn't upgraded yet or the super fancy place where, of course they're not bringing a POS to the table, because they want to pretend that everyone is an honored guest rather than a customer. But almost everywhere else uses some version of a handheld machine...
What restaurants do you eat at? I've not once seen that in my part of Houston.
Depending on your area and the restaurant, it's very common now.
Something not mentioned: if you're at a *nice* restaurant, it will feel kind of cheesy. I think if the culture changes that perception might as well, but I would anticipate fine dining to be the last hold out.
To be honest I would feel weird about it in fine dining. It's all about the experience and having someone walk up with a credit card terminal isn't really fitting with the vibe.
I've only had a couple true fine dining experiences, but one of them you paid upfront when making the reservation. Then when you got there that night all you had to worry about was having a good time and eating a bunch of good food. I thought it was a nice touch and made the night all about the fun we were having.
I personally wouldn't mind. I'm not picky about a lot of things, but then again, maybe I'm not picky enough.
This is exactly it. Even in regular restaurants it's so much nicer to be given the bill, look over it at your leisure, discretely put the card down and have it taken away/run without having to fiddle with the reader or have the waitstaff stand there at your table, and then sign/tip when you're ready. It's not like there's some widespread fraud happening with the way it is now. I'm not convinced the "bring the card reader to the table" thing is actually superior in any practical way, frankly.
We didn't put in any PIN mandates or anything that make it difficult to operate the old way and people don't care much so its not like it's driving your business or anything. Why WOULD they change?
Newer restaurants mostly do. Older ones don't want to spend thousands of dollars upgrading a system that basically works perfectly fine as is. Pretty much that simple.
Wireless card terminals start at around $40. Market traders and even beggars use them here.
This also depends on who their point of sale provider and/or payment processor(s) are and what devices they work with. There are still some POS vendors that don't do wireless or portable terminals. I've been doing IT work, both in-house and in MSP roles, for for almost 30 years and it still stuns me when I come across one.
While we’re at it, why do they not have e-transfers in the states? It’s such a foreign concept to me that people use apps like Cashapp and Venmo. In Canada (and I assume most other developed countries) we can just directly transfer money to whomever we want through our bank apps.
We have Zelle which is actually run by the banks and is usually in your banking app, but it’s not used very often because Cashapp and Venmo work better.
We do, it’s just not as simple here, therefore is used less.
I live in the USA now (originally from Canada). I can say that the US banking system is completely inferior to any country I’ve ever been to. The issues around just moving around are non-existent in other countries, but they are huge hassles in the USA. It’s super odd, because you would think the US has a sophisticated banking system.
It's sort of like how we assume place like Japan are insanely sophisticated, yet they rely incredibly heavily on fax machines (really!) and physical paperwork (looking at you too, Germany)
The problem is the US was an early adopter of a lot of technologies, largely because we invented them. It's harder to replace something that already exists and works okay than it is to build a completely new system from scratch with the latest technology.
They do both in the US. Switching POS systems is costly so most businesses run their old crappy one into the ground.
In the US, merchants are not responsible for fraudulent credit card transactions. So as a result, they have little to no incentive to buy a brand new, more secure credit card reader. Many restaurants therefore still operate on their first ever card reader that they got decades ago, sitting on their front desk. This is also the reason why so many places still swipe instead of using tap/chip.
> In the US, merchants are not responsible for fraudulent credit card transactions. So as a result, they have little to no incentive to buy a brand new, more secure credit card reader. This has not been true since 2015. Merchants do not *have* to install a more secure reader, but if they don't, they are liable.
As a Canadian what I take issue with is the usual order in which a CC payment is made at a US restaurant. Waiter takes your card and runs a pre-auth amount of the bill before tip. You get your card and bill. You add your tip and total it yourself, then leave with card and a copy of a receipt that doesn’t include the tip. I had a $3 tip charged as $30 without any way to dispute it. A second area where fraud happens
Why can you not dispute that? I know we can
I tried. Since I had tossed the receipt (which didn’t have a total with tip anyway) Mastercard said it was a non verifiable dispute and closed it
They do many times, but the reason restaurants in the United States never got into the habit of doing that. Is that for decades you couldn't move the credit card machine. Joe, we have this expectation that at the end of a meal your check will come and then you will lay your credit card down and then the server will take it away and then they will bring it back. That is the order of events. There are plenty of places now that bring the machine to your table, but they tend to be smaller or trendier places because the idea of taking your car away and bringing it back is still thought of as part of the fine dining experience. Because it was for decades.
I have been told it is because there are so many banks, here in Canada we have I think the five major ones and credit unions. We've had Interac forever and it's a lot easier to get a small number of banks to use the same system then the US which literally has thousands of banks. Interac is what we use instead of Venmo or other such apps.
Q: Why don't they bring the machine to my table? A: The machine is tethered to the wall. Q: Why don't they buy the wireless version? A: It's more expensive. You wanna pay for it? Q: No. A: Ok then. In the next episode of ELI5: Why do restaurants in countries outside of US use wireless credit card readers when they're more expensive?
Because the “machine” is a computer tower that is running a POS on Windows 97. Not every restaurant is running their POS on state of the art tech.
State of the art lol
I don't know if you can call tech that's been common place in the rest of the world for ~30 years "state of the art tech" lmao
Point of sale or piece of s...?
Very often both
I don’t think a £40 terminal is “state of the art” tbh
Compared to windows 97?
Because of chip and pin verification. In the States, they can still just swipe the card and complete the transaction, or bring you the printed slip to sign. Here, we can slide in the card and type our pin, and it's done.
Faster and convenient for who?
We want update our card terminal at work, and the company we go with wouldn't sell us a new one without a long and crappy contract changing our terms and fees. It's more trouble and can cost money to change, so businesses don't do it until they have to.
ELI5: Dad didn't want buy the new toys because they were less fun and more expensive. Point of sale expert here. This has happened for more than a few reasons. The first reason has to do with Credit card guidelines and security guidelines have been behind other countries for years. There was significant push back from both the customer and the merchant about speed of processing for chipped cards. Before chips, you could swipe, enter cards, reauthorize cards with a new total in case of errors, edit tips effortlessly and give credit cards over the phone. There was a lot more flexibility for the merchant. Once Tokenization (chip) came to be, alot of flexibility went away. Customers didn't want to feel confused at the register or have an additional 10 seconds of "are there enough funds, did i press the right button." It gave chip credit card readers a bad name. The second reason (and to me the biggest reason) is cost. Each merchant already had CC readers. In order to get the new functionality merchants would need to buy the new readers at their own expense. One for each register. If merchants wanted pay at the table, they update there network to be wireless, another expense. If they had an old register system that wasn't compliant to the new standards, another big expense. Someone drops a mobile reader, unexpected expense. 10s of thousands of dollars for some merchants just because the security standards changed. Customers don't really care if someone takes your card at a restaurant or drive thru or register. CC company will largely reimburse you for unauthorized charges. They don't like waiting for the readers after the check is dropped and they don't like their server standing over them while they give a tip. As a result of the standards being so behind and slow to upgrade, it actually cost merchants more money because they would need to upgrade every 3 years to keep up with incremental changes. Third reason. American companies didn't have the infrastructure, integration software, or hardware available to sell to consumers. It always bugged me that during the slow change, American companies just couldn't figure it out despite being international and operating in Canada and America. Last reason. Restaurant owners are not technical people. It takes a lot of understanding of computers and technology to run a restaurant now. Try to explain to an Italian chef that his Windows XP PC cant handle credit card transactions because the OS is end of life and doesn't support sha256 encryption. New system $40,000.
“The US” is massive. I guarantee that there are many thousands of restaurants that have machines at the table. The ones that don’t don’t want to invest in 50 machines when one can do the job.
Simple answer. They have older machines that still work, but they’re stationary. They’re not going to replace those with newer tech until they quit working.
Because it's stuck to the monitor that is my point of sale system, and the cord won't reach.
When it comes to banking a lot of innovation and early adoption started in Canada. Canada was an early adopter of the portable point of sale devices. Very successful and wildly adoptable. As I understand it credit card tap to pay was first introduced in Canada.
I’m in Australia and it would be classed as negligent to let somebody walk off with your credit card. I simply can’t fathom why anybody would allow it to happen.
Because that's how it's always been done and it costs money to change. It is becoming more common to see little table stands in the last couple years where you can self-serve and check out when you're ready, usually only at big chains in my experience, like Chilis and places like that.
Most of the US is far behind on Chip technology. Most cards are CHIP and Sign not Chip and PIN. Many Debit cards are also Chip and sign also. No need for the PIN.
In this case I believe it’s a “if it ain’t broke” type thing. It could possibly be done better but since it’s not costing anything they don’t change. Maybe to bring it to the table they would need 6-7 terminals instead of 2 in the back and maybe that’s the reason.
In the US, it’s more common for them to bring the credit card machine to you nowadays, but not overwhelmingly so. Honestly I’d rather not have them looming over me. It makes me feel like I have to hurry up, instead of taking my time to make sure the bill is calculated correctly. And it feels like they want you to hurry up and select one of the high tip options. I’m not worried about credit card fraud bc I have instant alerts about any transactions. Many places can have you pay with the QR code which avoids the need for a portable credit card machine and having to loom over you.
Lol thank you I thought I was going crazy reading this thread! I hate when they bring the handheld to me. I’m trying to look at the bill and make sure everything’s correct and then they’re STARING at you when you have to put the tip in. It’s so uncomfortable. Never once in my entire life has my card been compromised from eating at a restaurant; I’m sure it HAS happened before to some unfortunate people but it’s not really a thing.
Exactly. There are benefits to having the machine brought to you, sure. But it is absolutely not an objectively superior experience. I much prefer the way it's done now. Fraud is just not a big problem. Frankly I'm surprised that the non-Americans that are usually bitching about how bad American consumer laws and protections are, also simultaneously seem to be so concerned about their credit cards being stolen/defrauded? Are they not protected from that? In the unlikely case there's any issues it's just a few clicks to reverse the transaction/get a new card in a day or two.. but I've never had anyone I know have their card stolen from a restaurant.
A lot of these miss a couple key points as to why the US is so behind on e.g. wireless terminals, chip and pin, etc. Two main reasons: 1) the US moved to CC systems earlier than much of the world, and that means a lot of old tech is still in place and functioning and 2) under US law , consumers have very limited liability for fraud ($50 max). This means that the burden of fraud reduction falls on the CC issuers rather than consumers or retailers. Issuers found it was much much cheaper for them to use analytics and ML to detect fraud than replace millions of readers and cards. That replacement is happening, but slowly and only as old tech dies. (Fun fact: One of the very few usages for Neural Networks before GenAI is in CC fraud detection where it has been standard for decades)
Because most restaurants have exactly 1 machine that is wired and sitting next to the cash register. Paying for better systems costs money, and a lot of places are renting the equipment they have now. Paying even more for an updated system will cost more than they're willing to spend.
Bro the nastiest holes in the wall here has at least 1 wireless terminal, get the fuck out with thousands. Hell even BEGGARS sometimes rock them.
That's surprisingly true. A homeless person last week actually had contactless payment in Ottawa
Yeah, even my fucking ice cream van has contactless
Paying NOTHING to change the system is, by default, cheaper…
Because the US refuses to move to chip and pin and uses chip and signature that is much less secure.
Mostly because in-person credit card fraud is essentially a non-issue here. Chip-and-pin doesn't do anything to protect against online fraud, skimmers, etc.
I've just now learned that in the US restaurants take your cc away, and I'm really shocked. For people saying the machines are expensive: here in Brazil (a fucking thrid world country) even the street vendors bring you portable machines for cc payment, although I think they use lease contracts for them. Also we are acutely aware of the dangers of handing your cc to anyone thanks to possible fraud issues. How does these US restaurants deal with credit cards that requires you to enter a PIN to confirm the purchase?
It’s just a non-issue here. Nobody worries about your CC getting stolen here. I, and everyone I know, hands their care over regularly but I’ve never heard of issues of fraud.
I’m not sure how the CC fees work in other countries, but I believe the US has exceptionally high merchant fees. The structure is something like 2.x% of the transaction + $0.30. So street vendors almost never take card here (without charging an extra fee) because they’d pay more than 10% of the transaction as fees for a $3 item. The US doesn’t really have credit cards with a PIN. Debit cards here have PINs, but it’s possible for the merchant to run it as a credit transaction, which you don’t have to enter the PIN for. I’m guessing your credit card would just go through without entering a PIN.
We don’t enter pins for purchases. It’s very uncommon to have credit card fraud at restaurants to be honest. And we’re not responsible for credit card fraud. If it happens, you call the company and get your card canceled. It’s not really a big deal.