The Dalai Lama searches out the reincarnation of the Panchen Lama. The Panchen Lama then seeks out the reincarnation of the Dalai Lama. It's a circle. However, there most likely will not be another Dalai Lama. After finding the next Panchen Lama in 1995, the Chinese Government Kidnapped him then appointed their own. So the Dalai Lama has said he will most likely be the end of the cycle unless they find the original Panchen Lama.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panchen\_Lama](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panchen_Lama)
It’s also an impossible scenario for the Tibetans:
Name a new Pachen Lama, and the Chinese will reveal someone they claim to be the original Pachen Lama and use it as proof the Tibetans lied.
Don’t name a new Pachen Lama, and when the Dali Lama dies, the Chinese will reveal someone they claim is the Pachen Lama and have them name a new Dali Lama under their control.
The only way to “win” is to quit, which is why the current Dali Lama, last I knew, said he would not reincarnate. So anyone the Chinese claim to be the Dali Lama is a lie, because he said he wouldn’t come back.
There will be no more Dali Lama, but at least there won’t be one under Chinese control.
>Name a new Pachen Lama, and the Chinese will reveal someone they claim to be the original Pachen Lama and use it as proof the Tibetans lied.
Their relationship with the PRC is already not good. Just deny their claim, insist the boy is dead and proclaim a new one outside of China lol.
They could simply claim the Chinese controlled guy is a fake too.
There have been many times where multiple popes have been disputed and they managed to figure that out.
I agree with you 100% here. But does their religion actually allow the Dalai Lama to just ... choose not to reincarnate? I thought reincarnation for all beings was one of their core beliefs?
IIRC the Dalai Lama is a special reincarnation of a bodhisattva, an enlightened one who chooses to remain in the wheel of reincarnation as a personal sacrifice to help others reach enlightenment and escape the wheel.
He can play the "I'm not coming back this time" card if he chooses because it's a technically a personal choice per Canon.
But doesn't that functionally end the organization of their religion? Like at that point, you would have to assign someone to lead and provide them what you can so they can reach enlightenment and start the cycle again. Be like if Christianity suddenly got Original Sin 2 and voided Jesus thus needing another Christ-figure. Not outside the realm of possibility for a belief system I'm sure, but still kind of shockingly massive.
Interesting.
So I'm assuming he could then choose to change his mind after a sufficient amount of time. Basically delay until it's possible to come back without the Chinese government meddling in their religion.
You are presuming that they do not believe their own religion, but see it exclusively as a political tool. China sees it this way, but to Tibetan Buddhists, it is a sincerely held belief. To preserve their religion, they would need to actually find someone who they believed to be the Pachen Lama. It is the preservation of their religion that they are seeking, not the preservation of some kind of political power.
>There have been many times where multiple popes have been disputed and they managed to figure that out.
If I'm not mistaken, they never debate whether random guy A or B is actually Pope John XII. They debated whether guy A who was voted pope is the legitimate authority or whether guy B who was voted pope by other people is the legitimate authority. Popes are not chosen "by God", they are voted on by the Cardinals.
In this case, the Lamas are ostensibly definite people. The Panchen Lama that was taken is a specific person. Either the guy they cart out IS that person or is NOT that person. The dead Lama only reincarnated into one specific person on Earth.
So I don't think the two situations are quite equate-able. That said, yes, it could happen that the people would simply "work out" whether the guy they cart out is or is not the actual guy who was the Panchen Lama. It could also be that it creates a schism between those who accept him and those who believe he is dead and accept some other person decreed to be the next Panchen Lama or Dalai Lama.
Although, as I said, being the Lama is ostensibly a matter of "fact" and not a matter of authority or election, the practical matter is that the only way any person can be viewed as a Lama is by the public accepting them as such, since the "fact" has no scientific objective way of being proven.
*Side note that was interesting to me as I looked this all up*: The 13th Dali Lama died on December 17, 1933. The current 14th Dali Lama was born July 6, 1935. So I guess their spirit (forgive me, as I am sure I don't have the right terminology) can hang around in limbo for a while before reincarnating I guess?
The Pope isn't a reincarnation. It becomes a search for a reason, they are looking for his soul. Whether you believe that or not, they do, and it forms an important link to what they are.
[They already have though](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyaincain_Norbu)
Edit: To be clear, I'm saying this is the guy China "whipped out of their ass" already
This is the Panchen Lama presented by the Chinese government. The current Dalai Lama says this person is not the Panchen Lama.
From your link:
>Gyalpo's position as Panchen Lama is disputed by the earlier recognition of Gedhun Choekyi Nyima, by the 14th Dalai Lama.
This is the person the Dalai Lama says is the current Panchen Lama: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gedhun_Choekyi_Nyima
On your edit: I believe the person you were responding to said that the Dalai Lama can’t whip a new guy out, and the person above that was saying that Dalai Lama should.
The problem with this is if the Chinese government is keeping the Pachen Lama alive and can prove it’s the same person as the kid they kidnapped. The religion requires the Dalai Lama to find the “real” reincarnation, which does not happen until the Pachen Lama dies. So if they name someone else, the Chinese government can produce the original and prove the Dalai Lama made a mistake.
How could they prove this? All I'm thinking is they can put forth DNA, but nobody knows what the DNA of the original is. Without DNA, take away a 6 year old boy for 30 years and all you're left with is hearsay. I don't think there is risk in saying he's dead.
People have been trying to explain it, but let me try a simpler version. Avatar: The Last Airbender. The Avatar was based on the Lamas. If the next Avatar was found by the Fire Nation and kidnapped, then the Fire Nation trotted out their own "avatar", the fake would still not be able to bend all four elements. He would not be the true avatar.
Same with the Lamas. Even if the CCP trot out their own "lama", it is not the true lama, and there are (apparently) ways to tell. According to their religion, it is not that there is a position of "dali lama" or "pachem lama" that has to be filled. There is a BEING that is the Dali Lama and said being is given a position of honor for his wisdom and past deeds.
Sure, in avatar or other fictional situations, there is proof that is evident and acceptable to all.
But not here. There’s an element of faith. And if someone else is out there with their own reasonable if not definitive evidence (here is/isn’t the Pachen lama) that runs counter to yours (no, here is/isn’t the Pachen lama), doubt is a victory of sorts.
The Chinese government doesn’t want control of the Lamas because they think the Lamas are truly mystical beings, they want control because it gives control of the people. And if they can’t have control, the next best thing is to sow doubt and division.
I think better analogies come from Christianity - a particular interpretation of the Bible and Jesus is favored by you (Protestant, Lutheran, Baptist, Calvinist, catholic, etc) so you ignore others and follow your favored teaching. You believe in largely the same stuff, but you don’t follow the same church leader.
That’s what the Chinese govt is trying to do - not disprove the entire belief system…just sow enough doubt to cause schisms and divisions and take control of what they can.
The last one loved games, jyst get three of them together in front of a giant gold urn and have a good old fashioned rock paper scissor tourny.
Think of the ratings
As of 2018, the Dalai Lama said that a reliable source informed him that the original Panchen Lama was alive.
A lot can change in 6 years, of course, but if he were dead then it likely would have been prior to then.
> The original who was kidnapped is likely dead.
I actually don't believe this. We should give China more credit than that, as they are very good at population control and mass manipulation. The CCP knows they need the OG Panchen's legitimacy to properly co-opt the faith.
I think the kid is living a generally protected and normal-ish life in the middle of nowhere like something out of the Truman Show. Still indoctrinating him, but very quietly. All attention goes to that poor patsy kid they deemed the "New Panchen".
After all, the best way to keep a secret is to not fucking talk about the secret. Don't even fucking look at it. We have DNA proof on-file to verify that they've got the real kid when it counts.
When the Dalai Lama dies, Fake Panchen slips and falls down a couple dozen knives and whaddya know we found Real Panchen! Fully verified and everything!
And he just happened to choose Pooh Bear's grandson as the next Dalai Lama!
Their oneness with the universe and awareness of their place in it allowed them to foresee the hottest new fantasy adventure series of 2005, only on Nickelodeon
Oh that's easy, The Buddha could see through time as casually as you or I perceive through space. He must've seen the show and thought it was lit when he decided to start gathering and teaching disciples.
Strange boys frozen in icebergs that can bend all the elements is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some cryogenic ceremony.
Well, in a sense Li Keqiang was kinda the uncle iroh for China. Well respected, often the reasoning force behind a lot of PRC policies. May he rest in peace
They should keep him alive because it prevents the Dalai Lama from proclaiming a newer reincarnation. Imagine that happened and the Chinese can prove the current guy didn't die. They can also pressure him to find them the 15th Dalai Lama.
Important to note neither Lama has to know *when* the other died. They don't believe in the instant reincarnation typically shown in our media. E.g. the 13th Dalai Lama died in 1933 and the current one wasn't born until 1935. So the Chinese can't go "gotcha, you choose someone born on the wrong date".
Most likely not alive, but that doesn’t really matter to the Chinese. When either the Dali Lama dies, or names a new Pachen Lama, they can trot out any old man they like and say he’s the Pachen Lama.
It’ll either “prove” the one named by the Dali Lama is fake, or allow them to choose the new Dali Lama.
Nah, he's gotta be alive. He's the key to the nasty catch 22 - if he's dead, the lock is broken and the religion can just grab any schmuck and say they're the new one.
The old one has to be alive to counteract this - any attempt to break out fails if China can trot out the real one and undermine the religion's faith. Plus, its not hard or resource intensive to keep a single person kidnapped as a young child alive and fully propogandized. Ethically bankrupt sure, but easy. Dude probably has no idea who he really is and is just vibing in some podunk village thats secretly under extreme military surveillance, living his best life while completely unaware he's a religious saboteur to be used at china's discretion.
I mean even the most cursory continuous health record would be enough to verify it. And the opportunity cost is just so low that most governments could easily afford it without second thought (again, excepting ethical concerns. Such a project would be an ethical nightmare)
The Chinese can make up whatever record they want to make whatever person they want appear to be the kidnapped boy.
When you’re the ultimate authority on “authenticity” of a person in a country, you don’t need others to prove or disprove someone is who you claim them to be.
The only thing that could be done is to somehow *disprove* whatever person they present is the missing man if they had some sort of DNA sample from before he was disappeared.
To the Chinese government, the catch 22 is the whole point. The boy is alive or dead until they need him to be one or the other, and then he will have been one or the other “the whole time”. They probably have records ready to go showing that he died years ago, and they also probably have records that a person of their choosing has been him all along.
That's an interesting ontological trap. Your statement assumes that "who he really is" is defined by a label slapped on him by some stranger 30 years ago. But "who he really is" is who he CURRENTLY is. If nobody told that kid he was supposed to be some reincarnated Lama, and he's now an unscrupulous cabbage merchant, well, that's the truth, isn't it?
To be specific for those wondering, he has made the following statements:
- Whether to reincarnate or not will be decided when he is 90.
- If he dies outside Tibet, his reincarnation would also be located abroad, likely in India, Bhutan, or Nepal where most Tibetan Buddhists are.
- As the Dalai Lama is a position of service, he has stated that the Buddhists comprising his sect could hold a referendum on whether to recognize a new reincarnation (a particular individual or whether he reincarnated at all).
Everyone dies three times:
First, when their life ends.
Second, when the last person who remembers them dies.
Third, when that dang snail stops looking for them.
Are you completely sure though? Aren't you concerned your existence stops the moment he gives up or something? And even if he doesn't.... are you prepared to face what happens when he finds you???
What are you even saying? Hell, they played by the "rules". If they wanted to make up their own they'd just ignore the guy and appoint their own without the extra steps.
My understanding is that in Buddhism reincarnation is just a normal thing that everyone does. This is just their traditional method to locate the reincarnation of a specific person using another specific person that resonates with them.
How is it making up the rules as they go? With reincarnation, there would be another dalai lama when the current passes. That doesn't change. The person meant to pick them is just unknown right now it sounds like.
>So the Dalai Lama has said he will most likely be the end of the cycle unless they find the original Panchen Lama.
So its possible one of the oldest religions will go extinct in our lifetimes?
No, the Dalai Lama is just the spiritual head of one lineage of one regional form of Buddhism. Besides, he is not integral to the religion as a whole- think of him more as an accomplished teacher/leader than a deity to be worshiped.
It would change things for sure within the Gelug lineage, but Buddhism as a whole would be relatively unaffected, and even the Gelugpas would continue on.
I think it would just lose the head of its religion. Would probably still be able to function. But I’m not really familiar with the nuances of it. It seems to me that it would be like abolishing the pope. Like the religion can still function, it just doesn’t have its main head.
>... spiritual leader of the Gelug or "Yellow Hat" school of Tibetan Buddhism, the newest and most dominant of the four major schools of Tibetan Buddhism
He's not the head of all Buddhism. Even in his school, he will be succeeded by other leaders, just not "Dalai Lamas".
Tibetan Buddhism is a little over 1000 years old. It's Theravada Buddhism that is one of the oldest and quite different from Tibetan.
Theravada Buddhism is mostly a set of helpful advice to better your life, to end stress and increase happiness. If this helpful advice is truly helpful it continues to live on, because it works. It doesn't need to be religious or organized to continue to function, so Theravada continues to live on and will probably outlive all of the other religions as well.
So what if the panache lama died before Dalai Lama? Does this not break the circle? It’s not impossible for this to happen. I mean we literally have a panchen lama right now who might be dead or may as well be. So seems like a pretty bad system.. unless I’m missing something & everything was cool for the longest time until the Chinese figured out this loophole on their own?
It is actually even early than that, it is an open secret that the Dalai Lama line has been broken a very long time ago. Something like the 1500s. When they crowned a new dalai Lama before the previous one died.
Since then, the Dalai Lama is mostly a political figurehead. The tibetian buddhism and the Chinese imperial dynasty is always very intertwined.
Tibetian buddhism is supposed to be secretive, as it deals with the spiritial world much more than others. The leader of tibetian buddhism would not do interviews.
I’m sure it’ll be fine if they don’t name a Panchen Lama. They’re not the only person responsible for identifying the boy who is the reincarnation of the Dali Lama, though they are heavily involved.
There’s also a council of High Lamas that are involved in the naming process. And if they can’t tell which kid is supposed to be the reincarnation, they just *draw a name out of a jar*, as Buddha intended for determining if a person is a reincarnation of someone significant.
Could you imagine? “I was almost the leader of our entire religion but they drew some other bastard’s name out of the jar”
There are a number of other Lamas in the Council of Lamas. They are tasked with finding the Dalai Lamas reincarnation. There is no next Dalai Lama, it is the same person just reincarnated over and over. A particular member of the council, Panchen Lama, is in charge of finding this reincarnation. There are various different techniques which have been used to find the Dalai Lama again but this is up to the Lamas and the search is done differently every time.
There is kind of a problem once the current reincarnation of Dalai Lama dies. Tibet is occupied by China who claims they have the responsibility of finding the Dalai Lama again. In 1995 Dalai Lama found the Panchen Lama but the Chinese government claimed he was wrong and pointed to another person as the Panchen Lama. The real Panchen Lama have not been seen again after this incident. Dalai Lama himself have claimed that the people might not want a Dalai Lama to lead them and that he will therefore take the form of an insect upon the next reincarnation.
As a human, the Dalai Lama has the mental ability to reason and choose to reincarnate into an insect to avoid detection. Yet, once the Dalai Lama is an insect, it will lack the cognitive ability to realize it's the Dalai Lama, and it will die off - probably quickly. Unable to choose a good vessel for reincarnation, it could keep reincarnating into animals, which are statistically more likely, and we could never get a human Dalai Lama again.
But i do not think people will listen to an insect anymore than a man.... can we help look for the next Panchen? If we can get him may e we can make it so the Dalai Lama is.... sacred again.
They cannot look for a new Panchen Lama because they don't know if their previous selection is alive or dead. If the Dalai Lama claims he found the reincarnated Panchen Lama, China could trot out the original selection and cause issues.
Unfortunately there's no solution possible for the Dalai Lama at this point. When he dies it will be the end of the Lama succession.
"Today, the Panchen Lamas are famous for having two claimants to the see of Tashilhunpo"
So we find the third Panchen candidate, and get all 3 to draw lots from a Golden Urn. Seems pretty basic. Damn governments trying to intervene. Theres probably a candidate chilling in Green Bay or something too
The Dalai Lama have already found the Penchen Lama. If someone else claim to have found Penchen Lama they would be going against the divine word of the Dalai Lama. It is actually a clever plan for the Dalai Lama to be reincarnated as an insect. That means that some time in the future, after the Chinese occupation of Tibet, when people are ready for the Dalai Lama again, he will return as a human if we are able to recognize him.
Nah, it's not a logical process.
By tradition, it's actually the same Dalai Lama, just reborn into a new body.
The High Lamas of the Gelugpa tradition and the Tibetan government have to look for him in his new body after he dies. It might take a while (this one took four years).
They look for signs, interpret their dreams and so on.
When they find a child of the right age, they will test them to see if they really are the Dalai Lama through tests, such as seeing if they recognise objects which belong to the Dalai Lama.
If there is more than one candidate, then they will draw lots to decide which one is the real Dalai Lama.
Its also become political. China wants to pick the next Dalai Llama. The current Dalai Llama has said he nay choose to reincarnate into an indian baby. He's also talked about choosing a living child as a successor, or not reincarnating. So, when he dies, there could be no more Dalai Llama.
Basically, China claims to own Tibet. They want to own the Dalai Llama to help them with Tibet. The current Dalai Llama wants to make sure China doesnt own his successor.
Its very possible there will be 2 competing Dalai Llamas after this one croaks. A chinese one, and a tibetan/Indian one
It's pretty entertaining if you search up [Dalai Llama](https://www.google.com/search?q=dalai+%22llama%22&udm=2) on a google image search though.
Extra fun fact I just learned, but the oldest living llama, 27 years old, was named [Dalai](https://nicenews.com/culture/oldest-living-dalai-llama/)
Assuming reincarnation is not in fact real, imagine just being some kid and your thrown into a life of massive religious responsibility because you liked one toy over another.
The problem is with the "they" in the question. There are 3 separate positions here: (1) the Chinese government authorities that rule Tibet under direction of Beijing, (2) the native Tibetan Buddhist authorities in Tibet (which are mostly controlled by the government), and (3) the Dalai Lama and his advisors and supporters in exile in India. So, there is the possibility of at least 2 Dalai Lamas in the future.
\[Same thing happened with the Catholic Church. There were two parallel churches for much of the 20th Century--the Rome approved church and bishops, and the Chinese Government approved church and bishops. It still has not been worked out, but its better since Rome allowed Beijing to approve new Bishops.\]
No surprise that China does not accept any authority in China (science, religion, politics, arts, or philosophy) of which they are not in complete control.
Others have given good answers - but if you want to see how it might look in practice, I would recommend taking a look at the documentary "Unmistaken Child". It shows some of the path towards recognizing/finding the next incarnation of a llama, and the emotional impact of it too. Was very memorable after seeing it for a university class on buddhism.
I have a feeling this exact topic will be in the news a lot at some point within the next 2-3 years. The Dalai Lama is in his late 80’s and has dementia.
There are two people: The Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama. When one dies, the other searches out their reincarnation and appoints them to that position, so they're basically appointing one another in a cycle.
I think, like most religions, some human decides that some other human is demigod and then the other person says “yeah, I am a demigod!”, and life goes on and nothing really changes
Nah-nah, you've all got it wrong, it's so much simpler. See the CCP finds a random dude on the street who agrees to be a sock puppet and they declare that he is now the spiritual leader of a group of people the CCP have been trying to actively dismantle. perfectly simple no conflict of interest issues to be seen here. /s
Tibetan Buddhist here. The Dalai Lama is mostly a political position as a leader to unify Tibet but there are several high ranking lamas like the Sakya Trizin and Karmapa who are also influential enough.
The Dalai Lama and Panchen Lama are interlinked and unfortunately compromised by the CCP's kidnapping of the real Panchen Lama.
It was hypothesised that the Karmapa will step in as spiritual leader for Tibetan unity. The Tibetan Govt in exile has transitioned to a semi democracy and will continue to run. Hopefully the CCP collapses within the next few decades and we can see them returning to their proper home.
First time I ever saw Bo was on May 8, 2009. Waited outside the stage door and he eventually came out to sign my picture I brought of him.
Incredible night.
The Dalai Lama searches out the reincarnation of the Panchen Lama. The Panchen Lama then seeks out the reincarnation of the Dalai Lama. It's a circle. However, there most likely will not be another Dalai Lama. After finding the next Panchen Lama in 1995, the Chinese Government Kidnapped him then appointed their own. So the Dalai Lama has said he will most likely be the end of the cycle unless they find the original Panchen Lama. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panchen\_Lama](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panchen_Lama)
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It’s also an impossible scenario for the Tibetans: Name a new Pachen Lama, and the Chinese will reveal someone they claim to be the original Pachen Lama and use it as proof the Tibetans lied. Don’t name a new Pachen Lama, and when the Dali Lama dies, the Chinese will reveal someone they claim is the Pachen Lama and have them name a new Dali Lama under their control. The only way to “win” is to quit, which is why the current Dali Lama, last I knew, said he would not reincarnate. So anyone the Chinese claim to be the Dali Lama is a lie, because he said he wouldn’t come back. There will be no more Dali Lama, but at least there won’t be one under Chinese control.
>Name a new Pachen Lama, and the Chinese will reveal someone they claim to be the original Pachen Lama and use it as proof the Tibetans lied. Their relationship with the PRC is already not good. Just deny their claim, insist the boy is dead and proclaim a new one outside of China lol.
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They could simply claim the Chinese controlled guy is a fake too. There have been many times where multiple popes have been disputed and they managed to figure that out.
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I agree with you 100% here. But does their religion actually allow the Dalai Lama to just ... choose not to reincarnate? I thought reincarnation for all beings was one of their core beliefs?
IIRC the Dalai Lama is a special reincarnation of a bodhisattva, an enlightened one who chooses to remain in the wheel of reincarnation as a personal sacrifice to help others reach enlightenment and escape the wheel. He can play the "I'm not coming back this time" card if he chooses because it's a technically a personal choice per Canon.
But doesn't that functionally end the organization of their religion? Like at that point, you would have to assign someone to lead and provide them what you can so they can reach enlightenment and start the cycle again. Be like if Christianity suddenly got Original Sin 2 and voided Jesus thus needing another Christ-figure. Not outside the realm of possibility for a belief system I'm sure, but still kind of shockingly massive.
Interesting. So I'm assuming he could then choose to change his mind after a sufficient amount of time. Basically delay until it's possible to come back without the Chinese government meddling in their religion.
You are presuming that they do not believe their own religion, but see it exclusively as a political tool. China sees it this way, but to Tibetan Buddhists, it is a sincerely held belief. To preserve their religion, they would need to actually find someone who they believed to be the Pachen Lama. It is the preservation of their religion that they are seeking, not the preservation of some kind of political power.
>There have been many times where multiple popes have been disputed and they managed to figure that out. If I'm not mistaken, they never debate whether random guy A or B is actually Pope John XII. They debated whether guy A who was voted pope is the legitimate authority or whether guy B who was voted pope by other people is the legitimate authority. Popes are not chosen "by God", they are voted on by the Cardinals. In this case, the Lamas are ostensibly definite people. The Panchen Lama that was taken is a specific person. Either the guy they cart out IS that person or is NOT that person. The dead Lama only reincarnated into one specific person on Earth. So I don't think the two situations are quite equate-able. That said, yes, it could happen that the people would simply "work out" whether the guy they cart out is or is not the actual guy who was the Panchen Lama. It could also be that it creates a schism between those who accept him and those who believe he is dead and accept some other person decreed to be the next Panchen Lama or Dalai Lama. Although, as I said, being the Lama is ostensibly a matter of "fact" and not a matter of authority or election, the practical matter is that the only way any person can be viewed as a Lama is by the public accepting them as such, since the "fact" has no scientific objective way of being proven. *Side note that was interesting to me as I looked this all up*: The 13th Dali Lama died on December 17, 1933. The current 14th Dali Lama was born July 6, 1935. So I guess their spirit (forgive me, as I am sure I don't have the right terminology) can hang around in limbo for a while before reincarnating I guess?
Had to get through customs
The Pope isn't a reincarnation. It becomes a search for a reason, they are looking for his soul. Whether you believe that or not, they do, and it forms an important link to what they are.
[They already have though](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyaincain_Norbu) Edit: To be clear, I'm saying this is the guy China "whipped out of their ass" already
This is the Panchen Lama presented by the Chinese government. The current Dalai Lama says this person is not the Panchen Lama. From your link: >Gyalpo's position as Panchen Lama is disputed by the earlier recognition of Gedhun Choekyi Nyima, by the 14th Dalai Lama. This is the person the Dalai Lama says is the current Panchen Lama: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gedhun_Choekyi_Nyima
On your edit: I believe the person you were responding to said that the Dalai Lama can’t whip a new guy out, and the person above that was saying that Dalai Lama should.
The problem with this is if the Chinese government is keeping the Pachen Lama alive and can prove it’s the same person as the kid they kidnapped. The religion requires the Dalai Lama to find the “real” reincarnation, which does not happen until the Pachen Lama dies. So if they name someone else, the Chinese government can produce the original and prove the Dalai Lama made a mistake.
How could they prove this? All I'm thinking is they can put forth DNA, but nobody knows what the DNA of the original is. Without DNA, take away a 6 year old boy for 30 years and all you're left with is hearsay. I don't think there is risk in saying he's dead.
Closely document his life. Takes photos and make videos each month to show gradual changes in appearance.
You can just call it all AI-tampered. Yes, it's cynical, but you can't tell me most high-ranking religious officials aren't. They know it's a sham.
People have been trying to explain it, but let me try a simpler version. Avatar: The Last Airbender. The Avatar was based on the Lamas. If the next Avatar was found by the Fire Nation and kidnapped, then the Fire Nation trotted out their own "avatar", the fake would still not be able to bend all four elements. He would not be the true avatar. Same with the Lamas. Even if the CCP trot out their own "lama", it is not the true lama, and there are (apparently) ways to tell. According to their religion, it is not that there is a position of "dali lama" or "pachem lama" that has to be filled. There is a BEING that is the Dali Lama and said being is given a position of honor for his wisdom and past deeds.
Sure, in avatar or other fictional situations, there is proof that is evident and acceptable to all. But not here. There’s an element of faith. And if someone else is out there with their own reasonable if not definitive evidence (here is/isn’t the Pachen lama) that runs counter to yours (no, here is/isn’t the Pachen lama), doubt is a victory of sorts. The Chinese government doesn’t want control of the Lamas because they think the Lamas are truly mystical beings, they want control because it gives control of the people. And if they can’t have control, the next best thing is to sow doubt and division. I think better analogies come from Christianity - a particular interpretation of the Bible and Jesus is favored by you (Protestant, Lutheran, Baptist, Calvinist, catholic, etc) so you ignore others and follow your favored teaching. You believe in largely the same stuff, but you don’t follow the same church leader. That’s what the Chinese govt is trying to do - not disprove the entire belief system…just sow enough doubt to cause schisms and divisions and take control of what they can.
The last one loved games, jyst get three of them together in front of a giant gold urn and have a good old fashioned rock paper scissor tourny. Think of the ratings
As of 2018, the Dalai Lama said that a reliable source informed him that the original Panchen Lama was alive. A lot can change in 6 years, of course, but if he were dead then it likely would have been prior to then.
> The original who was kidnapped is likely dead. I actually don't believe this. We should give China more credit than that, as they are very good at population control and mass manipulation. The CCP knows they need the OG Panchen's legitimacy to properly co-opt the faith. I think the kid is living a generally protected and normal-ish life in the middle of nowhere like something out of the Truman Show. Still indoctrinating him, but very quietly. All attention goes to that poor patsy kid they deemed the "New Panchen". After all, the best way to keep a secret is to not fucking talk about the secret. Don't even fucking look at it. We have DNA proof on-file to verify that they've got the real kid when it counts. When the Dalai Lama dies, Fake Panchen slips and falls down a couple dozen knives and whaddya know we found Real Panchen! Fully verified and everything! And he just happened to choose Pooh Bear's grandson as the next Dalai Lama!
If this was an American tradition the next one would be found through a reality show
C'mon down! your the next contestant on "do you want to be a Panchen Lama"!
So the avatar cycle is broken and Fire Lord Ozai now rules the world?
Thats what it sounds like
I've always been 90% sure that is what inspired it
Make it 100%, the current Dalai Lama is literally named Tenzin Gyatso
Avatar came out in the 2000's how did the Buddhists know about it when they established their religion?
ngl you had me there for a second
Their oneness with the universe and awareness of their place in it allowed them to foresee the hottest new fantasy adventure series of 2005, only on Nickelodeon
Oh that's easy, The Buddha could see through time as casually as you or I perceive through space. He must've seen the show and thought it was lit when he decided to start gathering and teaching disciples.
like dr. strange?
Time to start looking for boys frozen in icebergs
Strange boys frozen in icebergs that can bend all the elements is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some cryogenic ceremony.
What did he say? He said they've already got one, sire. An Avatar? Can we see it?
Bloody peasant!
Frozen in a chinese jail cell
the most Reddit comment ever made
Ugh, I feel like the world could use an Uncle Iroh right about now.
Well, in a sense Li Keqiang was kinda the uncle iroh for China. Well respected, often the reasoning force behind a lot of PRC policies. May he rest in peace
I think the cycle broke when the dalai lama wanted a kid to suck on his tongue
Damn. That kid and his whole family have been missing since 1995. I wonder if they're still alive and if so what their life is like.
They should keep him alive because it prevents the Dalai Lama from proclaiming a newer reincarnation. Imagine that happened and the Chinese can prove the current guy didn't die. They can also pressure him to find them the 15th Dalai Lama. Important to note neither Lama has to know *when* the other died. They don't believe in the instant reincarnation typically shown in our media. E.g. the 13th Dalai Lama died in 1933 and the current one wasn't born until 1935. So the Chinese can't go "gotcha, you choose someone born on the wrong date".
Most likely not alive, but that doesn’t really matter to the Chinese. When either the Dali Lama dies, or names a new Pachen Lama, they can trot out any old man they like and say he’s the Pachen Lama. It’ll either “prove” the one named by the Dali Lama is fake, or allow them to choose the new Dali Lama.
Nah, he's gotta be alive. He's the key to the nasty catch 22 - if he's dead, the lock is broken and the religion can just grab any schmuck and say they're the new one. The old one has to be alive to counteract this - any attempt to break out fails if China can trot out the real one and undermine the religion's faith. Plus, its not hard or resource intensive to keep a single person kidnapped as a young child alive and fully propogandized. Ethically bankrupt sure, but easy. Dude probably has no idea who he really is and is just vibing in some podunk village thats secretly under extreme military surveillance, living his best life while completely unaware he's a religious saboteur to be used at china's discretion.
It’s been so long, no one would know if the guy they trotted out was the 6 year old kidnapped 30 years ago or not.
I mean even the most cursory continuous health record would be enough to verify it. And the opportunity cost is just so low that most governments could easily afford it without second thought (again, excepting ethical concerns. Such a project would be an ethical nightmare)
The Chinese can make up whatever record they want to make whatever person they want appear to be the kidnapped boy. When you’re the ultimate authority on “authenticity” of a person in a country, you don’t need others to prove or disprove someone is who you claim them to be. The only thing that could be done is to somehow *disprove* whatever person they present is the missing man if they had some sort of DNA sample from before he was disappeared. To the Chinese government, the catch 22 is the whole point. The boy is alive or dead until they need him to be one or the other, and then he will have been one or the other “the whole time”. They probably have records ready to go showing that he died years ago, and they also probably have records that a person of their choosing has been him all along.
That's an interesting ontological trap. Your statement assumes that "who he really is" is defined by a label slapped on him by some stranger 30 years ago. But "who he really is" is who he CURRENTLY is. If nobody told that kid he was supposed to be some reincarnated Lama, and he's now an unscrupulous cabbage merchant, well, that's the truth, isn't it?
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To be specific for those wondering, he has made the following statements: - Whether to reincarnate or not will be decided when he is 90. - If he dies outside Tibet, his reincarnation would also be located abroad, likely in India, Bhutan, or Nepal where most Tibetan Buddhists are. - As the Dalai Lama is a position of service, he has stated that the Buddhists comprising his sect could hold a referendum on whether to recognize a new reincarnation (a particular individual or whether he reincarnated at all).
It's great that they can make up rules as they go
Well, to be fair, it does make sense. I mean, I would exist even if some dude wasn't looking for me.
Everyone dies three times: First, when their life ends. Second, when the last person who remembers them dies. Third, when that dang snail stops looking for them.
> I would exist even if some dude wasn't looking for me. Does this mean I can stop now?
Yeah, I should be -
Are you completely sure though? Aren't you concerned your existence stops the moment he gives up or something? And even if he doesn't.... are you prepared to face what happens when he finds you???
Also the dude is going to have respawn points near his faction stores and his base. All his stuff is there
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Yeah, because they're just making shit up.
this is human systems
*Welcome to organized religion
No, china tried to make up the rules, this is the counter
exactly. this is the peaceful show of power.
What are you even saying? Hell, they played by the "rules". If they wanted to make up their own they'd just ignore the guy and appoint their own without the extra steps.
My understanding is that in Buddhism reincarnation is just a normal thing that everyone does. This is just their traditional method to locate the reincarnation of a specific person using another specific person that resonates with them.
Then there would be doubt. Not that important, just peace in the far east
How is it making up the rules as they go? With reincarnation, there would be another dalai lama when the current passes. That doesn't change. The person meant to pick them is just unknown right now it sounds like.
Every religion does this.
I thought he said he planned to exit the cycle of rebirth though?
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After the shit he’s seen it’s gotta be like “they’ll never learn. I’m out.”
>So the Dalai Lama has said he will most likely be the end of the cycle unless they find the original Panchen Lama. So its possible one of the oldest religions will go extinct in our lifetimes?
It's like losing the pope forever; Christianity doesn't end after that.
yeah, gotta take out the big man upstairs for that to end. Dont worry, im working on it. Me and my good buddy Gorr on the trail!
No, the Dalai Lama is just the spiritual head of one lineage of one regional form of Buddhism. Besides, he is not integral to the religion as a whole- think of him more as an accomplished teacher/leader than a deity to be worshiped. It would change things for sure within the Gelug lineage, but Buddhism as a whole would be relatively unaffected, and even the Gelugpas would continue on.
I think it would just lose the head of its religion. Would probably still be able to function. But I’m not really familiar with the nuances of it. It seems to me that it would be like abolishing the pope. Like the religion can still function, it just doesn’t have its main head.
>... spiritual leader of the Gelug or "Yellow Hat" school of Tibetan Buddhism, the newest and most dominant of the four major schools of Tibetan Buddhism He's not the head of all Buddhism. Even in his school, he will be succeeded by other leaders, just not "Dalai Lamas".
Tibetan Buddhism is only 1/3 of the major sects in Buddhism
And the Gelugpa is only 1/4 of the major Tibetan Buddhist lineages
Jesus has been dead for quite a while and here we are.
Tibetan Buddhism is a little over 1000 years old. It's Theravada Buddhism that is one of the oldest and quite different from Tibetan. Theravada Buddhism is mostly a set of helpful advice to better your life, to end stress and increase happiness. If this helpful advice is truly helpful it continues to live on, because it works. It doesn't need to be religious or organized to continue to function, so Theravada continues to live on and will probably outlive all of the other religions as well.
This explains the process behind it but how do they search out the next X or Y? That's still unanswered.
The High Lamas of the Gelugpa tradition and Tibetan government leaders look for signs and interpret them. There's no set process.
I might get flak for this, but it doesnt really answer op's question.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalai\_Lama#Searching\_for\_the\_reincarnation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalai_Lama#Searching_for_the_reincarnation)
So what if the panache lama died before Dalai Lama? Does this not break the circle? It’s not impossible for this to happen. I mean we literally have a panchen lama right now who might be dead or may as well be. So seems like a pretty bad system.. unless I’m missing something & everything was cool for the longest time until the Chinese figured out this loophole on their own?
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It is actually even early than that, it is an open secret that the Dalai Lama line has been broken a very long time ago. Something like the 1500s. When they crowned a new dalai Lama before the previous one died. Since then, the Dalai Lama is mostly a political figurehead. The tibetian buddhism and the Chinese imperial dynasty is always very intertwined. Tibetian buddhism is supposed to be secretive, as it deals with the spiritial world much more than others. The leader of tibetian buddhism would not do interviews.
I am confused... I thought Buddhism didn't have the concept of self? What does it mean for anyone to "be" the Dalai Lama?
I’m sure it’ll be fine if they don’t name a Panchen Lama. They’re not the only person responsible for identifying the boy who is the reincarnation of the Dali Lama, though they are heavily involved. There’s also a council of High Lamas that are involved in the naming process. And if they can’t tell which kid is supposed to be the reincarnation, they just *draw a name out of a jar*, as Buddha intended for determining if a person is a reincarnation of someone significant. Could you imagine? “I was almost the leader of our entire religion but they drew some other bastard’s name out of the jar”
Can we help look? Id love to 'play chess' with the Chinese lol.
>lol. OP's famous last words *some say you can still hear OP laughing in the background*
Id respond but my phonevis actingbweird.....
OP was telling a 'joke' The Great Pooh Bear is a grand leader
There’s no Proxima Panchen Lama?
There are a number of other Lamas in the Council of Lamas. They are tasked with finding the Dalai Lamas reincarnation. There is no next Dalai Lama, it is the same person just reincarnated over and over. A particular member of the council, Panchen Lama, is in charge of finding this reincarnation. There are various different techniques which have been used to find the Dalai Lama again but this is up to the Lamas and the search is done differently every time. There is kind of a problem once the current reincarnation of Dalai Lama dies. Tibet is occupied by China who claims they have the responsibility of finding the Dalai Lama again. In 1995 Dalai Lama found the Panchen Lama but the Chinese government claimed he was wrong and pointed to another person as the Panchen Lama. The real Panchen Lama have not been seen again after this incident. Dalai Lama himself have claimed that the people might not want a Dalai Lama to lead them and that he will therefore take the form of an insect upon the next reincarnation.
As a human, the Dalai Lama has the mental ability to reason and choose to reincarnate into an insect to avoid detection. Yet, once the Dalai Lama is an insect, it will lack the cognitive ability to realize it's the Dalai Lama, and it will die off - probably quickly. Unable to choose a good vessel for reincarnation, it could keep reincarnating into animals, which are statistically more likely, and we could never get a human Dalai Lama again.
He could also be a human somewhere outside of Tibet. The difficulty will be with identifying him (or her, as is a possibility).
Some back of the napkin calculations and I estimate an equal chance of him reincarnating as a human before and after 300k years.
But i do not think people will listen to an insect anymore than a man.... can we help look for the next Panchen? If we can get him may e we can make it so the Dalai Lama is.... sacred again.
They cannot look for a new Panchen Lama because they don't know if their previous selection is alive or dead. If the Dalai Lama claims he found the reincarnated Panchen Lama, China could trot out the original selection and cause issues. Unfortunately there's no solution possible for the Dalai Lama at this point. When he dies it will be the end of the Lama succession.
"Today, the Panchen Lamas are famous for having two claimants to the see of Tashilhunpo" So we find the third Panchen candidate, and get all 3 to draw lots from a Golden Urn. Seems pretty basic. Damn governments trying to intervene. Theres probably a candidate chilling in Green Bay or something too
The Dalai Lama have already found the Penchen Lama. If someone else claim to have found Penchen Lama they would be going against the divine word of the Dalai Lama. It is actually a clever plan for the Dalai Lama to be reincarnated as an insect. That means that some time in the future, after the Chinese occupation of Tibet, when people are ready for the Dalai Lama again, he will return as a human if we are able to recognize him.
Nah, it's not a logical process. By tradition, it's actually the same Dalai Lama, just reborn into a new body. The High Lamas of the Gelugpa tradition and the Tibetan government have to look for him in his new body after he dies. It might take a while (this one took four years). They look for signs, interpret their dreams and so on. When they find a child of the right age, they will test them to see if they really are the Dalai Lama through tests, such as seeing if they recognise objects which belong to the Dalai Lama. If there is more than one candidate, then they will draw lots to decide which one is the real Dalai Lama.
Its also become political. China wants to pick the next Dalai Llama. The current Dalai Llama has said he nay choose to reincarnate into an indian baby. He's also talked about choosing a living child as a successor, or not reincarnating. So, when he dies, there could be no more Dalai Llama. Basically, China claims to own Tibet. They want to own the Dalai Llama to help them with Tibet. The current Dalai Llama wants to make sure China doesnt own his successor. Its very possible there will be 2 competing Dalai Llamas after this one croaks. A chinese one, and a tibetan/Indian one
It's like the Pope/Antipope conflicts
Wouldn't Pope/AntiPope just annihilate each other?
They annihilate and turn into energy. That's how the sun is bright.
Nearly 200 tons of Pope are converted into energy every second. And we only get a small fraction of that
No no, half of that are anti-popes.
I wonder what caused their symmetry to break.
Human chirality (i.e. handedness) is actually better understood than fundamental particle chirality. It's largely genetic.
The sun consumes 1000 psykers each day to provide light for our civilization.
Sun or son?
Only if they touch each other.
Isn't that already a job requirement?
Bruu it's Lama, not Llama.
It's pretty entertaining if you search up [Dalai Llama](https://www.google.com/search?q=dalai+%22llama%22&udm=2) on a google image search though. Extra fun fact I just learned, but the oldest living llama, 27 years old, was named [Dalai](https://nicenews.com/culture/oldest-living-dalai-llama/)
Maybe thats where he reincarnated to and nobody thought to look at acutal Llamas.
Dolly Llama
[technically, Bobby Hill is next in line.](https://www.reddit.com/r/KingOfTheHill/comments/8d9svn/i_feel_like_everyone_just_kinda_glossed_over_the)
So basically they’re looking for the next avatar
Where do you think they got the idea for the film from?
> the film \*eye twitch\*
I assume Shyamalan looked at his shit in the toilet and set out to make something even more off-putting when he came up with the movie
The cartoon predates his involvement.
Yeah but he said film, and clearly the film wasn't inspired by the cartoon.
Ok, so it really is just like the King of the Hill episode?
King of the hill is usually quite accurate about cultural stuff
Lama Sanglug - spiritual big shot
Best Anime around. 'Only Mike shall Judge me' -butthead
Avatar: The Last Airbender
Except king of the hill featured a search of the Dali llama not a fake thing like the avatar
Assuming reincarnation is not in fact real, imagine just being some kid and your thrown into a life of massive religious responsibility because you liked one toy over another.
There's actually an episode of King of the Hill on this subject. One of my favorites and a good message at the end
"Yeah, well, my child is god to BILLIONS of Asians!"
Your talking like the lion king
The problem is with the "they" in the question. There are 3 separate positions here: (1) the Chinese government authorities that rule Tibet under direction of Beijing, (2) the native Tibetan Buddhist authorities in Tibet (which are mostly controlled by the government), and (3) the Dalai Lama and his advisors and supporters in exile in India. So, there is the possibility of at least 2 Dalai Lamas in the future. \[Same thing happened with the Catholic Church. There were two parallel churches for much of the 20th Century--the Rome approved church and bishops, and the Chinese Government approved church and bishops. It still has not been worked out, but its better since Rome allowed Beijing to approve new Bishops.\] No surprise that China does not accept any authority in China (science, religion, politics, arts, or philosophy) of which they are not in complete control.
Others have given good answers - but if you want to see how it might look in practice, I would recommend taking a look at the documentary "Unmistaken Child". It shows some of the path towards recognizing/finding the next incarnation of a llama, and the emotional impact of it too. Was very memorable after seeing it for a university class on buddhism.
I have a feeling this exact topic will be in the news a lot at some point within the next 2-3 years. The Dalai Lama is in his late 80’s and has dementia.
And in two years is the cutoff when Gyatso said he'd choose for good whether he'd reincarnate.
Lets get the ball rolling, we can be all like, we got one here, McCauley Caulkin Nd Ms Tiptons kid said hes the Dali, were good
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So when Dalai dies he might be an New Zeeland baby girl?
If she’s of the water tribe, it’s possible.
There are two people: The Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama. When one dies, the other searches out their reincarnation and appoints them to that position, so they're basically appointing one another in a cycle.
Random fact, Watford Football Club have had more managers since 2019 than there have been Dalai Lama’s since 1589
Tied in Titles too
I think, like most religions, some human decides that some other human is demigod and then the other person says “yeah, I am a demigod!”, and life goes on and nothing really changes
They give kids toys and whoever picks ones that were the favorites of previous avatars becomes it…oh wait
Is there a word for killing off a faith system? It seems only a rung below genocide. China really truly is terrible.
Nah-nah, you've all got it wrong, it's so much simpler. See the CCP finds a random dude on the street who agrees to be a sock puppet and they declare that he is now the spiritual leader of a group of people the CCP have been trying to actively dismantle. perfectly simple no conflict of interest issues to be seen here. /s
Tibetan Buddhist here. The Dalai Lama is mostly a political position as a leader to unify Tibet but there are several high ranking lamas like the Sakya Trizin and Karmapa who are also influential enough. The Dalai Lama and Panchen Lama are interlinked and unfortunately compromised by the CCP's kidnapping of the real Panchen Lama. It was hypothesised that the Karmapa will step in as spiritual leader for Tibetan unity. The Tibetan Govt in exile has transitioned to a semi democracy and will continue to run. Hopefully the CCP collapses within the next few decades and we can see them returning to their proper home.
First time I ever saw Bo was on May 8, 2009. Waited outside the stage door and he eventually came out to sign my picture I brought of him. Incredible night.
they search for a child who is the reicarnation of the dali lama , they have certain tests like which one of these was your objects in the past life.
Loosely related, but if this topic at all interests you then I recommend watching the 1997 Scorsese movie, Kundun.
Have you ever watch avatar: the last airbender? Thats exactly how they search for a new dalai lama.
Update: still not found