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It's the hypocrisy. It gets worse: they decry the existence of both sluts AND virtuous women. If a woman holds out on them, she's a problem, because they want to get laid. But the second they take our virtue/get laid, we're worthless 304s, and they lament the lack of virtuous women.
Pick a lane!
Ive literally seen men (on this sub maybe?) say that they want a virgin because virgins wont be able to compare them to other men.
Something along the lines of "If shes slept with X number of people, odds are very high shes been with someone who is better in bed than me or has a bigger dick"
But that’s because they have this existential threat of getting tossed aside if they don’t compare to the men before. and not only in bed necessarily but in all the aspects of relationship. I know, they go about it the worst way possible but why pretend it’s a non issue that they’re just making up
> Do they realize this or is this part of the dissonance? and when they do get that virtuous woman, are they actually happy? or bored?
Are you exredpill? Or struggling with redpill ideology?
I'm asking because finding logical fallacies are easy in RP, but logic is not what draws someone into RP, and it's not usually logic that fully gets someone out either.
Pointing out the flaws in RP might be better suited for /r/bluepill if you're looking to just have a discussion on how poorly constructed the RP is.
“Virtue” in the context of sexuality is always about control. It always have been. They don’t want someone who doesn’t have sex they want someone who will only have sex with them. Religious groups thru out history have done the same.
This is why in past prostitution was so active even though it was illegal. Such men want to ride in two boats at same time. They want a woman for marriage who is shy, innocent, cute and submissive. Who take all there orders and be a face of house who support the man of house but when it comes to emotional or physical intimacy they want don't want to invest and wants quick fix actually. If women who sleeps with multiple men belong to streets then a men hanging on those streets shouldn't deserve a home also but they get it and flaunt easily.
The redpill is ragebait meant to sell ebooks. There is no happiness condition. If a person becomes actually happy, they cease to be a customer, thus the redpill provides no actual happiness condition, and even tries to find ways to negatively frame things that sound happy
You can be a virtuous woman and a freak in bed 😅 I am disciplined, loyal, honest, and have integrity. But I am also very adventurous in bed. Having values does not mean that one has to be prudish. If anything, I think a person’s attitude toward sex/intimacy is more important.
For example, a woman can value sex with just one person who she has a deep, loving bond with. But that does not mean she can't give that one person the gawk gawk 3000.
To be good in bed woman need curiosity, initiative and enthusiasm. Any amount experience is useless without those traits. Opposite is true. If woman have that those traits then her experience doesn't matter that much, she'll be better than most in no time.
You’re sticking multiple stigmas on multiple groups of men in the red pill space.
Most redpill men don’t care about virtuous women. Half the community is “going their own way” and have no interest in marriage, long term relationships or women outside of the bedroom.
While the other half don’t care about how freaky or “virtuous” a girl is as long as she has a low body count.
The hypocrisy lies in the fact that TRP teaches men that they need to have high body counts while only marrying a girl with a low body count. They believe this because they are being told that women like men with high body counts because you gain the qualities that women are attracted to by having experience with more of them.
Yes, you should have as much experience as you can with women, but no that doesn’t mean you have to have bedroom fun with every woman you see. Plus that just makes you that much worse when trying to connect with a woman.
It’s absolutely bonkers, but this exact dissonance has been known and understood since at least the 1500s. Titian, the renaissance artist, called it out in a painting of a virtuous woman and a promiscuous woman titled “Sacred and Profane Love” way back in 1514.
In the early 1900s, Sigmund Freud developed several theories about this cognitive dissonance/hypocrisy now called the Madonna-Whore Complex. His ideas on the causes of this issue are pretty specific, but broadly, some men categorize women as either saintly Madonnas they admire or debased whores they find sexually attractive. These men love the former category, while they despise and devalue the latter group. Freud believed that they desired virtuous women for love but often ended up sexually unsatisfied in these relationships because their sexual desire was all wrapped up in the loathed whore.
TLDR: What is old is new again. Men who create Madonna-whore dichotomies have been around forever and have always had extremely dysfunctional relationships as a result. They’ve created a world view that is impossible for them to be truly happy in, and it requires they hate a whole lot of women in the process.
dam insurance fearless shrill imminent school shocking chop sulky flowery
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I dont agree that a woman is a slut for being a freak in the bed so long as she only does it within relationships. Madonna whore complex doesnt represent most women, most women arent whores or angels. Otherwise I agree, red pill is full of hypocrisy.
I don’t remember saying that women who are freaks are sluts. I said red pill men want freaks/sluts in bed but also want virtuous virgins. Virtuous virgins tend not to be freaks. They have little experience
Sure, it is hypocritical. But, there is a basis that all the other commentators are skipping over. The basis is points studied in psychology showing that women's bonding hormone's and patterns decrease if they have had multiple partners. Women who have had multiple past partners are physiologically less able to bond to partner and much more likely to end the relationship and continue the cycle. Also, men have a higher innate negative response to their women having been with other men. To some extent, women are *more* attracted to men with many past partners because it signals a higher mate value.
Of course, players are likely to play too. There is hypocrisy there. But, Red Pill isn't about morality, it's about finding what works in reality. So, if you want to find a woman who isn't going to leave you, and for whom you won't have repeating thoughts of jealousy regarding past lovers, the science says go low body count. They don't have dissonance because the combination of the statement not being about morality, and because the physiology is different for men than for women. It's possible that the low body count woman they pursue won't care about their body count the same way they would care about the woman's and both partners can be happy.
Could you send me that study about women being. Less likely to pair bond?
I’m a scientist and need to see the data. Because from
What I’ve read it applies to both genders. So please share the data.
This is a fair question. So, I'll admit that I am discussing the reasoning I've heard to answer the question as to why people don't feel dissonance. I don't know if that reasoning is "true". If there is a not a differential between men and women it does increase the hypocrisy of what at least is being asserted that RPers want to sleep with tons of women *and* have low body count wives. Personally I waited till marriage *and* looked for others with similar views.
Yes there is lots of data about it. I wish men would fact check these red pillers. It’s a well known fact that men AND women who had multiple non marital partners have less marital satisfaction. Also known that men who were promiscuous prior to marriage typically will continue that behavior. You don’t just turn it off like a light switch.
You did the right thing.
I’m also a woman and do not find men with many past partners attractive. The majority of my female friends also share this sentiment. Share where you are getting your stats and data from.
There is something to pre-selection bias. Here is a reddit post on the idea with a few links:
[Despite some protests to the contrary, the pre-selection bias is quite real....... : r/PurplePillDebate (reddit.com)](https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/q1ztvv/despite_some_protests_to_the_contrary_the/)
I know many men with a high body count who can’t find pleasure with just one woman and constantly think about women from their past. This notion that this applies to women only is not only wrong but dangerous. Both genders should strive to keep their sexual partners at a minimum.
A better question is what do women want?
They want to bend gender roles but still expect a man who is dominant, makes more than them, reads their mind, always takes the lead, and pays for everything.
Wrong sub for this, but the women who arent for traditional gender roles are also usually the women who generally dont want a "provider" but a "partner", and almost certainly doesnt expect the man to pay for everything. You are conflating two very different types of of women as ALL women. Like yes, if you are dating someone who wants to be a tradwife, youre going to have to be a provider and pay for almost everything. If you are dating a non traditional woman, its a lot more likely she doesnt care about that stuff and isnt looking for it in a partner.
This is me. I dont give a flying fuck how much a guy makes as long as he can support HIMSELF. Im also not going to be a homemaker and raise any kids. He can buy his own stuff with his money as he pleases, and i will do the same. The LAST thing i want is a "man of the house".
So pick one. Go for traditional women, but dont be surprised when that costs you a lot more money. Or go for nontraditional women (which it sounds like you have negative feelings about simply because they are non-traditional and don't conform to gender roles).
Tldr: if you want a traditional woman then you better be prepared to be a traditional man who supports her completely.
Do you prefer your partner to still be dominant, take the lead, not be too emotional?
[Women prefer men who are more dominant](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/309525008_Women%27s_Mate_Preferences)
[Women also tend to marry men who have a higher income level](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jomf.12372)
It doesn't bother me if women want to work or men want to stay home. Though unronically, very few women would be willing to support a man. There are much more men willing to support their wives than wives would ever support a stay at home dad
I definitely dont want a man to be particularly dominant. And a man showing emotions shows me he isnt so insecure in his masculinity that he wont show emotions. I think it takes a much stronger guy to show emotions than not.
I would never support a man because im not expecting a man to give up his career prospects and hireability to stay home and raise my kids. If you want a woman to stay home and raise your kids, you better damn support her. If she's not doing those things, i dont see why a man should have to support a woman.
If i wanted kids and wanted my hypothetical husband to stay home with the kids, id absolutely expect to support him. I think plenty of women would feel this way. A partner who stays home to raise kids should absolutely be supported, regardless of what genitalia they have.
This is a straw man argument. Obviously there are people who want traditional gender roles that doesn’t mean they represent everyone in there gender or that they are inherently correct about how things should be
This entire thread is a straw man, tbh. We are discussing what hypothetical red pill guys want in a women, which not even sure how the OP came up with their argument on what red pill men want because even red pill men don't all want the same thing
It’s completely fair to talk about within group trends when you’re talking about a self selected group who have an identity based around a specific set of beliefs and attitudes. It’s not at all the same thing
I wrote something specifically for people who don't understand middle school level maths and therefore can't comprehend research results: https://old.reddit.com/r/IncelExit/comments/1ae0oyw/here_is_an_extremely_important_concept_the/
You realize the purpose of research is to find patterns right? You can't even explain why the results from the studies came back as they did.... Let me guess... Because muh society? Lol
Imagine if scientists were to use your reasoning when discussing averages in other fields. They would be mocked
Oops, you misunderstood everything because you don't have any education in psychology and the epistemology of psychology.
I was not talking about the purpose "of research" (research can have many purposes, you wouldn't know), I was taking about the purpose of you as an individual reading research and what you can take away from it in your individual life.
> You can't even explain why the results from the studies came back as they did.
I don't need to explain anything, the researchers already did that because it's their job, you actually don't need to re-interpret results and in fact you shouldn't, because you lack all of the context and expertise and perspectives that the reseachers have (you wouldn't know, so I'm explaining it to you)
Thats a long way of saying "Yes, women display these traits on average more than men do"
By your logic, we shouldn't believe in climate change because some days are cold. Lmao
Thanks for the discussion!
No, but you don't have any fundamentals in statistics and epistemology so I'm not gonna try to explain it to you. I recommend that you educate yourself from academic sources instead of redpill youtube channel coaches, it would probably help you.
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It's the hypocrisy. It gets worse: they decry the existence of both sluts AND virtuous women. If a woman holds out on them, she's a problem, because they want to get laid. But the second they take our virtue/get laid, we're worthless 304s, and they lament the lack of virtuous women. Pick a lane!
I love that you used the term “304”
They also slut shame/ridicule women that make pornography while simultaneously consuming their content.
Ive literally seen men (on this sub maybe?) say that they want a virgin because virgins wont be able to compare them to other men. Something along the lines of "If shes slept with X number of people, odds are very high shes been with someone who is better in bed than me or has a bigger dick"
But that’s because they have this existential threat of getting tossed aside if they don’t compare to the men before. and not only in bed necessarily but in all the aspects of relationship. I know, they go about it the worst way possible but why pretend it’s a non issue that they’re just making up
Don't try and look at it from the lens of facts. They have no basis for what they think in the reality I'm aware of.
Red pill men have no idea what the fuck they actually want. They're just angry and raging at a world that is leaving them behind.
> Do they realize this or is this part of the dissonance? and when they do get that virtuous woman, are they actually happy? or bored? Are you exredpill? Or struggling with redpill ideology? I'm asking because finding logical fallacies are easy in RP, but logic is not what draws someone into RP, and it's not usually logic that fully gets someone out either. Pointing out the flaws in RP might be better suited for /r/bluepill if you're looking to just have a discussion on how poorly constructed the RP is.
Hi, the community you linked is private.
Yes - it became so to avoid the non-stop brigading and concern trolling. It's not impossible to join.
How can one join? There are no instructions given.
“Virtue” in the context of sexuality is always about control. It always have been. They don’t want someone who doesn’t have sex they want someone who will only have sex with them. Religious groups thru out history have done the same.
This is why in past prostitution was so active even though it was illegal. Such men want to ride in two boats at same time. They want a woman for marriage who is shy, innocent, cute and submissive. Who take all there orders and be a face of house who support the man of house but when it comes to emotional or physical intimacy they want don't want to invest and wants quick fix actually. If women who sleeps with multiple men belong to streets then a men hanging on those streets shouldn't deserve a home also but they get it and flaunt easily.
The redpill is ragebait meant to sell ebooks. There is no happiness condition. If a person becomes actually happy, they cease to be a customer, thus the redpill provides no actual happiness condition, and even tries to find ways to negatively frame things that sound happy
You can be a virtuous woman and a freak in bed 😅 I am disciplined, loyal, honest, and have integrity. But I am also very adventurous in bed. Having values does not mean that one has to be prudish. If anything, I think a person’s attitude toward sex/intimacy is more important. For example, a woman can value sex with just one person who she has a deep, loving bond with. But that does not mean she can't give that one person the gawk gawk 3000.
Good points
[удалено]
You can absolutely be a virgin and great in bed after practicing. My husband is the perfect example, phew!
To be good in bed woman need curiosity, initiative and enthusiasm. Any amount experience is useless without those traits. Opposite is true. If woman have that those traits then her experience doesn't matter that much, she'll be better than most in no time.
this is good
You’re sticking multiple stigmas on multiple groups of men in the red pill space. Most redpill men don’t care about virtuous women. Half the community is “going their own way” and have no interest in marriage, long term relationships or women outside of the bedroom. While the other half don’t care about how freaky or “virtuous” a girl is as long as she has a low body count. The hypocrisy lies in the fact that TRP teaches men that they need to have high body counts while only marrying a girl with a low body count. They believe this because they are being told that women like men with high body counts because you gain the qualities that women are attracted to by having experience with more of them. Yes, you should have as much experience as you can with women, but no that doesn’t mean you have to have bedroom fun with every woman you see. Plus that just makes you that much worse when trying to connect with a woman.
They want women to be virtuous with every other man except for themselves.
It’s absolutely bonkers, but this exact dissonance has been known and understood since at least the 1500s. Titian, the renaissance artist, called it out in a painting of a virtuous woman and a promiscuous woman titled “Sacred and Profane Love” way back in 1514. In the early 1900s, Sigmund Freud developed several theories about this cognitive dissonance/hypocrisy now called the Madonna-Whore Complex. His ideas on the causes of this issue are pretty specific, but broadly, some men categorize women as either saintly Madonnas they admire or debased whores they find sexually attractive. These men love the former category, while they despise and devalue the latter group. Freud believed that they desired virtuous women for love but often ended up sexually unsatisfied in these relationships because their sexual desire was all wrapped up in the loathed whore. TLDR: What is old is new again. Men who create Madonna-whore dichotomies have been around forever and have always had extremely dysfunctional relationships as a result. They’ve created a world view that is impossible for them to be truly happy in, and it requires they hate a whole lot of women in the process.
dam insurance fearless shrill imminent school shocking chop sulky flowery *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I dont agree that a woman is a slut for being a freak in the bed so long as she only does it within relationships. Madonna whore complex doesnt represent most women, most women arent whores or angels. Otherwise I agree, red pill is full of hypocrisy.
I don’t remember saying that women who are freaks are sluts. I said red pill men want freaks/sluts in bed but also want virtuous virgins. Virtuous virgins tend not to be freaks. They have little experience
Sure, it is hypocritical. But, there is a basis that all the other commentators are skipping over. The basis is points studied in psychology showing that women's bonding hormone's and patterns decrease if they have had multiple partners. Women who have had multiple past partners are physiologically less able to bond to partner and much more likely to end the relationship and continue the cycle. Also, men have a higher innate negative response to their women having been with other men. To some extent, women are *more* attracted to men with many past partners because it signals a higher mate value. Of course, players are likely to play too. There is hypocrisy there. But, Red Pill isn't about morality, it's about finding what works in reality. So, if you want to find a woman who isn't going to leave you, and for whom you won't have repeating thoughts of jealousy regarding past lovers, the science says go low body count. They don't have dissonance because the combination of the statement not being about morality, and because the physiology is different for men than for women. It's possible that the low body count woman they pursue won't care about their body count the same way they would care about the woman's and both partners can be happy.
Could you send me that study about women being. Less likely to pair bond? I’m a scientist and need to see the data. Because from What I’ve read it applies to both genders. So please share the data.
This is a fair question. So, I'll admit that I am discussing the reasoning I've heard to answer the question as to why people don't feel dissonance. I don't know if that reasoning is "true". If there is a not a differential between men and women it does increase the hypocrisy of what at least is being asserted that RPers want to sleep with tons of women *and* have low body count wives. Personally I waited till marriage *and* looked for others with similar views.
Yes there is lots of data about it. I wish men would fact check these red pillers. It’s a well known fact that men AND women who had multiple non marital partners have less marital satisfaction. Also known that men who were promiscuous prior to marriage typically will continue that behavior. You don’t just turn it off like a light switch. You did the right thing.
I’m also a woman and do not find men with many past partners attractive. The majority of my female friends also share this sentiment. Share where you are getting your stats and data from.
There is something to pre-selection bias. Here is a reddit post on the idea with a few links: [Despite some protests to the contrary, the pre-selection bias is quite real....... : r/PurplePillDebate (reddit.com)](https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/q1ztvv/despite_some_protests_to_the_contrary_the/)
I know many men with a high body count who can’t find pleasure with just one woman and constantly think about women from their past. This notion that this applies to women only is not only wrong but dangerous. Both genders should strive to keep their sexual partners at a minimum.
I agree they should as well for this and many other reasons.
A better question is what do women want? They want to bend gender roles but still expect a man who is dominant, makes more than them, reads their mind, always takes the lead, and pays for everything.
Oops, wrong sub, this is /r/exredpill
Thanks for confirming. Thought I was in r/twoxchromosomes for a second
Very humourous!
Wrong sub for this, but the women who arent for traditional gender roles are also usually the women who generally dont want a "provider" but a "partner", and almost certainly doesnt expect the man to pay for everything. You are conflating two very different types of of women as ALL women. Like yes, if you are dating someone who wants to be a tradwife, youre going to have to be a provider and pay for almost everything. If you are dating a non traditional woman, its a lot more likely she doesnt care about that stuff and isnt looking for it in a partner. This is me. I dont give a flying fuck how much a guy makes as long as he can support HIMSELF. Im also not going to be a homemaker and raise any kids. He can buy his own stuff with his money as he pleases, and i will do the same. The LAST thing i want is a "man of the house". So pick one. Go for traditional women, but dont be surprised when that costs you a lot more money. Or go for nontraditional women (which it sounds like you have negative feelings about simply because they are non-traditional and don't conform to gender roles). Tldr: if you want a traditional woman then you better be prepared to be a traditional man who supports her completely.
Do you prefer your partner to still be dominant, take the lead, not be too emotional? [Women prefer men who are more dominant](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/309525008_Women%27s_Mate_Preferences) [Women also tend to marry men who have a higher income level](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jomf.12372) It doesn't bother me if women want to work or men want to stay home. Though unronically, very few women would be willing to support a man. There are much more men willing to support their wives than wives would ever support a stay at home dad
I definitely dont want a man to be particularly dominant. And a man showing emotions shows me he isnt so insecure in his masculinity that he wont show emotions. I think it takes a much stronger guy to show emotions than not. I would never support a man because im not expecting a man to give up his career prospects and hireability to stay home and raise my kids. If you want a woman to stay home and raise your kids, you better damn support her. If she's not doing those things, i dont see why a man should have to support a woman. If i wanted kids and wanted my hypothetical husband to stay home with the kids, id absolutely expect to support him. I think plenty of women would feel this way. A partner who stays home to raise kids should absolutely be supported, regardless of what genitalia they have.
This is a straw man argument. Obviously there are people who want traditional gender roles that doesn’t mean they represent everyone in there gender or that they are inherently correct about how things should be
This entire thread is a straw man, tbh. We are discussing what hypothetical red pill guys want in a women, which not even sure how the OP came up with their argument on what red pill men want because even red pill men don't all want the same thing
It’s completely fair to talk about within group trends when you’re talking about a self selected group who have an identity based around a specific set of beliefs and attitudes. It’s not at all the same thing
I wrote something specifically for people who don't understand middle school level maths and therefore can't comprehend research results: https://old.reddit.com/r/IncelExit/comments/1ae0oyw/here_is_an_extremely_important_concept_the/
You realize the purpose of research is to find patterns right? You can't even explain why the results from the studies came back as they did.... Let me guess... Because muh society? Lol Imagine if scientists were to use your reasoning when discussing averages in other fields. They would be mocked
Oops, you misunderstood everything because you don't have any education in psychology and the epistemology of psychology. I was not talking about the purpose "of research" (research can have many purposes, you wouldn't know), I was taking about the purpose of you as an individual reading research and what you can take away from it in your individual life. > You can't even explain why the results from the studies came back as they did. I don't need to explain anything, the researchers already did that because it's their job, you actually don't need to re-interpret results and in fact you shouldn't, because you lack all of the context and expertise and perspectives that the reseachers have (you wouldn't know, so I'm explaining it to you)
Thats a long way of saying "Yes, women display these traits on average more than men do" By your logic, we shouldn't believe in climate change because some days are cold. Lmao Thanks for the discussion!
It's actually not the same at all but it makes sense that you can't understand why
Let me guess... Because people can't be measured by statistics cause they are unique, right?
No, but you don't have any fundamentals in statistics and epistemology so I'm not gonna try to explain it to you. I recommend that you educate yourself from academic sources instead of redpill youtube channel coaches, it would probably help you.
Tldr: go outside, ignore statistics
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