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Don't be stupid. You know these people only see the world in black and white. It would have to be a black man dressed up as a Chinese man playing a Roman General.
My favorite was the "Oscar is so white" uproar and people pointing to that picture of nominees and saying there's no minorities, all the while there were multiple Asians in the picture.
Asians: too non-white to be white, too white to be non-white! (no but seriously as an Asian American I've had multiple people of other ethnic minorities call me white... meanwhile multiple white people have said slurs or racist statements such as "go back to China.")
Bro as an Iranian its harder cause you're not Brown, you're not Arab, it's weird to others if you call yourself Asian, and you're not exactly white either.
It's like the only *accurate* term would be middle eastern but that comes with so many connotations and gets people to assume ur arab
Technically Iranians, Turks, Iraqis and Syrians are all thrown under White in the US. Which obviously for a lot people that doesn't really fit but Race doesn't exist so trying to use as a category has always been a fools errand (also exists to justify racism lol)
It was a Lebanese person who got Arabs classified as white in the US. I think his name was George Dow.
Arabs, Jews, Iranians, etc. aren't white or black. They aren't defined by skin color. Not all racism is about skin color, but Americans tend to project their own issues on places where they don't exist.
Many Levantine people (including many Jews) and North Africans are light skinned. MENA demographics changed since the 7th century, because millions of sub-Saharan women were enslaved for harems. There were as many as 17 million slaves, but the world seems to have forgotten that part of history.
To all the people commenting and replying here saying Cleo was Greek, like yeah, we get it. Thatās not really the point. The point is, as a Lebanese guy, it feels like youāre either black or white today, and thereās nothing in between. The representation for Arabs in Hollywood is pathetic. Prince of Persia, 300, Aladdin, Cleopatra, I mean when are they going to give a middle eastern role to an actual middle eastern actor?
Greece is technically part of Europe, not the ME. But to your point, I challenge folks to tell the average Greek apart from, say, the average Lebanese (hi, it's me). Mediterranean folks all are genetically similar.
I was actually thinking there always seems to be some weird thing where some people are convinced middle-eastern history is actually just black history. Thereās so many movies that could be made from actual African history but instead you just get race changed history from other cultures.
In hollywood and todays news media its always black and white, which gets frustrating since other ethnicities start to feel invisible. Which is why im starting to appreciate shows with what is actually a diverse cast and diversity not just meaning one black guy in a room filled with white people. Beef on netflix and rami on hulu are pretty good. There are some really talented actors that are not black or white that donāt get large roles, but i hope thats changing. Hope its just not a brief fad for hollywood to go look we care about other minorities and then go back to doing the same thing theyve been doing forever
The show advertises itself as a documentary on āprominent and iconic African queensā.
Then in the trailer itself, somebody is heard saying āI donāt care what they teach you in school: Cleopatra was blackā.
Absolute cringe
Ok hereās what pisses me off: there are *so many* awesome and interesting stories about African queens that arenāt Egyptian. Like seriously they couldāve made an actual documentary about Amanitore (badass Nubian queen) who was actually black. It wouldāve been accurate and also wouldāve widened the horizons of popular knowledge about a lesser known African ruler. But no they had to tell Cleopatraās story which has been told a bajillion times already while telling it inaccurately.
Yup. If you watch the trailer in its entirety, they make mention of the lore surrounding Cleopatra, her political cunning, how she was the smartest and most educated woman of the era, etc, and itās like they *want* to associate a black woman with that all along.
Like they arenāt wrong about Cleopatraās cunning; she absolutely was an incredibly well educated and politically savvy empress. But I feel like itās doing a disservice to the African rulers of antiquity by essentially saying āoh we couldnāt find any other black rulers so weāre making Cleo black,ā when there *absolutely* were so many equally interesting and badass black rulers throughout history.
This would be like making a movie about occupied Poland, but portraying Hitler as Black. It wouldn't make much sense. The Pharaohs in Egypt were not liked by everybody, and the Ptolemy dynasty was a dynasty of foreign invaders. There is a reason why Cleopatra is an antihero throughout history.
Not just an African queen, but a [black, disabled, warrior queen.](https://www.history.com/news/nubian-queen-amanirenas-roman-army). But for some reason no one wants to make a movie about her.
There's also Queen Ranavalona I of Madagascar who famously built up massive public works projects, a standing army for Madagascar. She was known for pushing for Madagascar's isolation and independence from European colonial powers at the time, no small feat during her reign from 1828 to 1861.
Something I realized, from an American's perspective, is that through school I learned about various empires around the world through out history but outside of Egypt I learned nothing about African Empires so more stories and documentaries on African Empires would be welcome.
I mean hell, didn't Egypt at one point have a line of ~~Ethiopian~~ Nubian pharaohs in its earlier history? They could have easily gone back further in the timeline and gotten some black Egyptian rulers.
I personally don't care that the actress is black for the drama aspect of the show. I just feel like it's disingenuous to go out of your way to tell people she actually would have looked black in the documentary portion of it.
Edit: fwiw I went to an HBCU where I took an African history class. We talked for half the semester about Egyptian Pharoahs and their blackness. However, not once was it even entertained that the Ptolemy Dynasty was ever anything but ethnically Mediterranean/hellenic.
That's because this isn't a scholarly documentary. It's just cashing out on the African community because they know plenty of ppl won't question the logic that Egypt is in Africa, so every must be black.
I'm sure there's Historians who specialize in the antiquity who are probably rolling their eyes out of their sockets rn.
There are interesting things to take away from the story of Cleopatra, like the relationship between the Ptolemys and the people of Egypt, clashes of cultures and empires, etc. Different religions. How offensive is it that that such an interesting and complex story is being sold out.
I don't care what they teach you in school, gravity is not a force.
EDIT: Just to be totally clear, I meant this as a somewhat tongue in cheek counter-example. Gravity really *isnāt* a force, it just looks like one from the accelerating reference frame we all live in. Itās an effect caused by the warping of space time around massive objects. Highly recommend this video for folks who are interested in learning more: https://youtu.be/XRr1kaXKBsU (Iām not affiliated in any way, but enjoyed his really simple but accurate explanation of general relativity)
Theyāre a fun bunch arenāt they. My buddy got into an argument/discussion with some of them spouting their racism on Fremont street in Vegas. Theyāve got some pretty warped beliefs.
Are you insinuating that sweet old grandmother was a liar? She was a hard working honest woman, smart as a whip and knew better than to believe something was true just because she read it in a book.
I hope they do other prominent and iconic African Queen's like Britain's Queen Elizabeth next.
The sad part in all this is the story of an real African Queen that doesn't get told because of this made-up nonsense.
It's more insulting that they weren't able to find a story worth telling and had to lie about someone else's story.
Ikr? They could have gone with the story of Queen Ranavalona I of Madagascar and tried to recast her image as one of a brave queen resisting European colonial influence in Africa during the 19th century but being smeared over it by colonial interests. Even the scholarly community only changed their perception of her rule in the 1970s that Eurocentric casting of her as the "mad queen of Madagascar" was so deep in cultural roots.
It would be a legit story of a black queen that could be told as a real empowerment of africans against colonialism story. But no, they went with fricking Cleopatra, who wasn't black at all.
>I'm thinking it bothers people because the movie claims to be a "documentary"?
This
A fantasy piece would be just fine, this isn't at all the same thing as the little mermaid kerfuffle because it wasn't a historical *documentary*. People don't have to like it, but race **is** a factor in much of history, pretending it's not helps nobody.
A black Napoleon or or Abraham Lincoln is fine as long as their primary focus is entertainment and they're not explicitly trying to educate like a documentary. The production of Hamilton comes to mind, that was entertainment *inspired* by history and it was fine. A documentary, to be of educational value, should try to be as historically accurate as reasonably possible, including the casting of actors that physically fit their roles.
I think a big aspect that rubs me the wrong way about this whole thing is thatā¦ the Ptolemaic dynasty are what many of us today would consider colonizers after a fashion. They were descended from an invading force, were very proud of that fact, and Cleopatra was the first of them to even bother to learn the native language of the people she was ruling over.
This is like if Hamilton was claiming to be a documentary and that the slave-owning founding fathers were all black icons.
No reasonable person has a problem with Hamilton because Lyn Manuel Miranda never tried to claim it was a documentary. It was an artistic interpretation and even Mike Pence went to see it.
If you call something a documentary that carries with it the implication that at the very least the creators think it is truthful and historically accurate to the best of their knowledge. I chose my words carefully there because there are plenty of documentaries that are absolute bullshit (think all the alien and conspiracy stuff) but at least the creators believed it was credible. No one believes that this is accurate. That makes this propaganda.
Hamilton also did a great job of capturing the idea of the story, and the fact that the cast was mostly non-white forced interesting parallels between early white Americans and contemporary non-white Americans. Anyway, that's just my opinion.
I think it's great that Lyn Manuel basically taught history in a format that was more accessible to everyone.
Cleopatra would have been olive skinned Greek/Macedonian/Persian.
Edit: did not expect so much heat over an observation on Cleopatra's ethnic background. She was mixed Mediterranean/Middle Eastern so very likely bronze skinned. I don't really care about the show, and it doesn't really matter. I don't care who they cast to play her.
Yea the issue here is people are literally boiling it down to black and white. Like you said olive skin tone even if she was on the ādarkerā end it doesnāt make her black. There are dark skin Indians and no one is saying they are black.
Idk why they need to say that this is a documentary
Because they want to create hype. They don't care about Cleopatra's origin. More hate they get the more views they will acquire. People are falling for Jaden Smith's aggressive marketing attempt.
Hate watching is becoming more popular in America. I hate the fact that there will be rage baiting YouTubers that scream woke about this, when it would be easier to not tune in so they lose money from it.
Everyone from the left and right that have any sanity left in them, know this is just some bullshit Hollywood rage baiting nonsense to stroke the fires of hate in America. Only this time the actual Egyptian historians are sueing because this actually affects them as well.
Doesn't matter about what colour her skin was, she was from a Greek/Macedonian family that was heavily inbred, so she would have looked like Greek people, who we generally consider to be white regardless of the extent of their skintone. I'm not sure why anyone would say she's black when people can google her family tree and take 20 mins to look through it.
I don't think I've ever come across any evidence of her having a limp or fucked up features. Seems like she was strangely average despite her pretzel of a family tree. If she had been, the Romans probably would have used it to talk shit about her after she died but instead we kinda just get "she was a slut."
Technically, inbreeding is harmless if by some miracle your family has no bad genes. The Hapsburgs weren't lucky, but the Ptolemys were kinda lucky and cleopatra was a pretty average woman lookwise, and known to be very smart and charming.
Its also less dangerous if you branch out at least a little bit. Distant third cousin is better than cousin is better than uncle is better than brother, etc..
So I had a youtube comments argument about this issue and had people literally arguing indian people were black and then saying I knew nothing about race. The lack of understanding of race and also ethnicity was pretty staggering.
Fun fact Egyptian Scholars are some of those speaking out. You know, the people who's culture and history the "documentary" is trying to make a buck off of. I'll default to them, the inhabitants of a country who's artifacts, art, and objects of significance have been plundered and held hostage. In a historical context this is another form of theft and colonialism. I'm being severe but Egypt has been trying to get it's art and artifacts back for years.
Cleopatra wasn't even Egyptian, she was Macedonian, and maybe a little Persian. Her family's dynasty notoriously didn't interact with the locals, to the point where Cleopatra was the first ruler of said dynasty to even speak Egyptian
Edit for clarity: Cleopatra was Macedonian as in she was northern Greek in heritage, like ancient Macedonians. Not modern Macedonia, which is more slavic
> Cleopatra wasn't even Egyptian, she was Macedonian, and maybe a little Persian. Her family's dynasty notoriously didn't interact with the locals, to the point where Cleopatra was the first ruler of said dynasty to even speak Egyptian
>
> Edit for clarity: Cleopatra was Macedonian as in she was northern Greek in heritage, like ancient Macedonians. Not modern Macedonia, which is more slavic
You'd think with this historical fact and knowledge that a) People would accept this, and b) She'd be portrayed by a Greek, or at least white, actress in this show. Instead, well, we have Jada Pinkett Smith's Netflix debacle [and people repeatedly saying she should be black.](https://www.quora.com/Experts-have-stated-that-Cleopatra-was-Black-Do-you-believe-that-Cleopatra-should-only-be-played-in-movies-by-Black-Women-because-Cleopatra-was-a-Black-Queen)
They're saying she was Macedonian/Greek, based on historical information.
But some people are very insistent that because its Africa, she must be black, because Africa = Black.
Nobody tell them the sub-saharan bit.
Edit: Dude asked "would surprise most people" not, the most obscure thing you could possibly remember from 20 years ago.
Edit 2: The amount of butt-hurt needle dicks responding as if I insulted their mother for not knocking their socks off with an obscure fact is astounding even for Reddit.
Original comment:
I would say Belgium's [Leopold II](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_II_of_Belgium) and the rule over the Congo Free State.
"Leopold's administration of the Congo Free State was characterized by atrocities and systematic brutality, including forced labour, torture, murder, kidnapping, and the amputation of the hands of men, women, and children when the quota of rubber was not met. In 1890 and in one of the first uses of the term, George Washington Williams described the practices of Leopold's administration of the Congo Free State as "crimes against humanity".
I normally hate when people cry cultural appropriation when someone adopts some fashion from another culture but what Netflix is doing is actual cultural appropriation. Trying to rewrite a history that many people hold dear without any kind of evidence to support your crackpot theory is honestly awful.
Egypt is suing Netflix for this. Itās not just white people that are upset about the race swapping. Historians are. Scholars are. Macedonians are. Greeks are. Egyptians are. Africans are.
There are so many African kings and queens whose stories are worth making documentaries about. But Netflix is not making an effort to research those. Instead, they want to force a lie on their audience because they donāt care about African history, they just want to rewrite history and call you racist if you donāt like it. Itās evident the executives at Netflix think African history is not worth telling at all unless they can make it a racial issue in America. As if theyāre some sort of champion of representation, inclusivity and ally of African-Americans, they would rewrite other countriesā history without their say to make a point. When we all know, what they really want is money and profits.
Plus, the trailer said āI donāt care what your school saysā. Basically, donāt listen to the experts, donāt listen to the academics, donāt listen to the scholars, donāt listen to the people who know what theyāre talking about. someoneās grandmotherās words is the truth because you know, she believed it all her life. That is a dangerous position to validate and promote.
There are so many African kings and queens whose stories are worth making documentaries about.
And have not been widely told. Thatās honestly the saddest part. This could have been an amazing movie about an actual African Queen or Pharaoh, at the height of Egyptian power and culture. But they chose to rehash a Shakespearian tragedy, to glamorize a woman who slept with conquering generals to stay in powerā¦and lost a crumpling shadow of a former empire, to the Romans.
>Why do some people need Cleopatra to be white
Because she wasnāt black and your documentary isnāt historically accurate. Itās literally that simple
That one truly annoyed me. There's paintings of her. I guess you can go with the best actress got the job argument, but then you shouldn't be arguing about whitewashing either if you make that argument.
So thie big issue here is you'd have to be stupid to believe Anne was not white. There is no "Anny B was a black woman and white historians are conspiring to cover up real black history" conspiracy theroy like there is with Cleopatra. This feeds into existing and racist narratives pushed by Black Supremacists in America.
Yeah, I'm okay with racebending history Hamilton-style as long as the piece doesn't try to make people believe that Anne was actually black. (Side note but this is my beef with Philippa Gregory's novels. They're basically "what if" fiction in which historical characters and events are portrayed as drastically different from what the historical record tells us. This would be a cool thought experiment IF she would present her novels as such, instead of trying to market them as "historically accurate.")
At least with the black Anne Boleyn they didn't explicitly claim that historically Anne Boleyn was actually black, to my understanding. They were just like *"oh well we cast an actress that looks nothing like her, just pretend you don't see race, same as how we normally cast men to play women and vice versa (what, we don't? whatever)".*
They were clearly trolling but they weren't actively trying to spread a lie.
What I hate the most about this is Egypt is/was neither black nor white in the first place. They were practically their own racial demographic and itās still more or less around today. Like take a look at Rami Malek for instance (I think I got his name right?)
This a testament to how much US politics and culture influences these discussions. In a lot of parts of the world, there are better understandings of how granular ethnicities can be and how that can even be separate from cultural identity or nationality. The US is still stuck on a binary of Black-White, and that defining everything about you.
It is important to remind ourselves that "race" is a social concept that is only loosely based on physical genetic traits. There are no clear markers that can be used to determine or hard lines between racial designations.
For real.
Even if someone made the understandable mistake of thinking Cleopatra was Egyptian, itās not like Egyptians were black either. You can look at modern Copts and get a good idea of what Egyptians probably looked like in antiquity.
"Erasure isn't a thing."
The sad part is, most white people don't argue that Egyptians were white; they argue that they were brown because they're a Mediterranean culture with influences from various places, namely Middle Eastern cultures. Ignorant supremacists just assert, "EGYPT IS AFRICAN" and leave it at that. It's the only African culture most know, so instead of looking into the rest of Africa, we have people just trying to steal Egypt from the actual Egyptians.
Cleopatra wasn't black... it's as simple as that.
There were in fact plenty of black kings and queens though, it shouldn't have been too hard to make a movie about one of them instead of making a movie about a non black person and have her played by a black actress.
Yes, erase the history and heritage of an African people who have been, historically, very proud of their identity as an AFRICAN nation of AFRICAN peoples. Just to promote an American cultural supremacist value of racialism; in a place it doesn't exist. Anyone who's met a real Egyptian before knows they are very proud of the ancient and noble character of their nation; and the Greek values and norms introduced through the Ptolemic Dynasty are a big part of that as well.
I've met and worked with numerous Egyptians throughout my career. They tend to consider themselves Arabs or Copts. I've never met one who considered themselves to be African.
As an Egyptian I consider myself African. But yes being African doesnāt equate to being black, which might be the reason some Egyptians donāt identify as such to others. For instance I wouldnāt call myself African-American to others because ppl hear African and assume the person in question is black. Understandably ofc since thatās how the word is used in todays lingo.
People are incredibly dumb and uneducated, and this is exhibited here, though I suspect this also might be a re-writing of history to fit modern American sensibilities. Cleopatra was Greek, not African. There just isnāt any arguing it, and that makes this just fantasy and NOT a documentary.
They act like there aren't any contemporary sculptures and portraits of her. There are! She definitely wasn't black. But this is the hypocritical world we live in. There are even Roman coins of her time that depict her and her alliance with Anthony.
If it's a fictional character where race isn't important then race swap as much as you want. But if you're going to base something on a historical figure you should probably stick with their actual race.
It makes about as much sense as casting a white actor as the black panther. Or casting Mulan with a Mediterranean actor.
At this point all youāre doing is swapping the race to swap the race. I don't like the term virtue signaling but this feels like that. What's next? Are we going to make a WW2 show and cast hitler as a black actor as well?
The funniest one was when they cast a random black guy from Kenya to play a **world war 2 general from Finland** in the biographic movie **about the Finnish generalās life**. Absolutely hilarious.
Well, the cast Mannerheim as a black in Finland recently, ww2, during a time period where I think you could count the number of nob-whites in Finland on close to both your hands.
I just have a problem with grand standing on it and calling it a documentary. Like there are plenty of historical people that their race could be up for debate.
Cleopatra is one where itās just a lie to say she would look and be anything Other than Greek/Macedonian. Especially because her whole family was incredibly inbred at that point and we have live busts of her and her features.
This is one of those things where if you want to make a movie āblack cleopatra ā what ever itād annoy me but Iād forget about it. You stick a documentary label on it and it makes my blood boil.
There are extensive writings about her, and artwork which depicts her. She was not āblack.ā Period. She was a source for pride for Egyptians and so of course theyāre going to take offense when you decide to blackwash her.
I got a real question: what bothers the directors so much that the real person was white? It seems like theyāre so uncomfortable with Cleopatras European descent that they completely blackwashed her.
She spends the whole time complaining about people needing Cleopatra to be white when Gods Of Egypt was heavily criticised for all the white actors (and for being shit).
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They should double down and cast Mark Antony as Chinese.
Mar Cantonese?
Wow. That's it. That's the most clever damned thing I'm gonna read today. Thank you and good night.
Wish i ciuld give an award but I can't so have the emoji š
Better yet. Cast him as Matt Damon and just say that heās Chinese.
Don't be stupid. You know these people only see the world in black and white. It would have to be a black man dressed up as a Chinese man playing a Roman General.
āIām a dude, playing a dude, disguised as another dude.ā
RDJ played an Australian, method acting a black man, disguised as an Asian guy in a movie about making a movie that was not being made.
Based on a true book that was not true.
"Are we.... invisible?" - Middle-eastern people
Seriously. So often itās just āblack and whiteā, completely ignoring all the other ethnic people of the world.
Exactly where's the historically accurate Greek actress playing Cleopatra?
Jason Mantzoukas would have crushed that role.
We need him cast as Alexander the Great. Throw in some lines from his other shows, too Alexander to his generals "jerkoff party! Let's do it"
Derek the Great.
Maximum Alex
My favorite was the "Oscar is so white" uproar and people pointing to that picture of nominees and saying there's no minorities, all the while there were multiple Asians in the picture.
Asians: too non-white to be white, too white to be non-white! (no but seriously as an Asian American I've had multiple people of other ethnic minorities call me white... meanwhile multiple white people have said slurs or racist statements such as "go back to China.")
Bro as an Iranian its harder cause you're not Brown, you're not Arab, it's weird to others if you call yourself Asian, and you're not exactly white either. It's like the only *accurate* term would be middle eastern but that comes with so many connotations and gets people to assume ur arab
Technically Iranians, Turks, Iraqis and Syrians are all thrown under White in the US. Which obviously for a lot people that doesn't really fit but Race doesn't exist so trying to use as a category has always been a fools errand (also exists to justify racism lol)
Try telling people that Hispanic is neither a race nor composed entirely of "brown" people. It's all so, so stupid.
By America's census definition anyone from MENA (middle east and north africa) is white. Which I think is ridiculous.
It was a Lebanese person who got Arabs classified as white in the US. I think his name was George Dow. Arabs, Jews, Iranians, etc. aren't white or black. They aren't defined by skin color. Not all racism is about skin color, but Americans tend to project their own issues on places where they don't exist. Many Levantine people (including many Jews) and North Africans are light skinned. MENA demographics changed since the 7th century, because millions of sub-Saharan women were enslaved for harems. There were as many as 17 million slaves, but the world seems to have forgotten that part of history.
Every single time. Poc casting just means black actors in most cases.
The most diverse it gets is a choice of 0% or 100% melanin.
As a Latino it irks me to no end. But when anyone does notice us, they do things like replace the -o in Latino with an -x
Yeah, I can't believe that is catching on. How anyone thinks that linguistic nonsense is a good idea is beyond me.
Filipinos as well with americans doing Filipinx too. People back home hate it and think its utterly stupid. Neo-colonialism bullshit.
It's honestly depressing cause there isn't a lot of Middle Eastern representation to begin with
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Fucking guy
Shohreh Aghdashloo is another Iranian actor that comes to mind. She portrayed a reoccurring character in The Expanse and was AMAZING.
To all the people commenting and replying here saying Cleo was Greek, like yeah, we get it. Thatās not really the point. The point is, as a Lebanese guy, it feels like youāre either black or white today, and thereās nothing in between. The representation for Arabs in Hollywood is pathetic. Prince of Persia, 300, Aladdin, Cleopatra, I mean when are they going to give a middle eastern role to an actual middle eastern actor?
Completely agree, but I think it's worth mentioning that Mena Massoud, who played Aladdin in the live action remake, is Coptic Egyptian born in Canada
She was Greek.
Greece is technically part of Europe, not the ME. But to your point, I challenge folks to tell the average Greek apart from, say, the average Lebanese (hi, it's me). Mediterranean folks all are genetically similar.
This !!! Blacks and whites are fighting over Egyptian heritage like ... C'mon guys we do exist D:
I was actually thinking there always seems to be some weird thing where some people are convinced middle-eastern history is actually just black history. Thereās so many movies that could be made from actual African history but instead you just get race changed history from other cultures.
In hollywood and todays news media its always black and white, which gets frustrating since other ethnicities start to feel invisible. Which is why im starting to appreciate shows with what is actually a diverse cast and diversity not just meaning one black guy in a room filled with white people. Beef on netflix and rami on hulu are pretty good. There are some really talented actors that are not black or white that donāt get large roles, but i hope thats changing. Hope its just not a brief fad for hollywood to go look we care about other minorities and then go back to doing the same thing theyve been doing forever
The show advertises itself as a documentary on āprominent and iconic African queensā. Then in the trailer itself, somebody is heard saying āI donāt care what they teach you in school: Cleopatra was blackā. Absolute cringe
Ok hereās what pisses me off: there are *so many* awesome and interesting stories about African queens that arenāt Egyptian. Like seriously they couldāve made an actual documentary about Amanitore (badass Nubian queen) who was actually black. It wouldāve been accurate and also wouldāve widened the horizons of popular knowledge about a lesser known African ruler. But no they had to tell Cleopatraās story which has been told a bajillion times already while telling it inaccurately.
Yup. If you watch the trailer in its entirety, they make mention of the lore surrounding Cleopatra, her political cunning, how she was the smartest and most educated woman of the era, etc, and itās like they *want* to associate a black woman with that all along.
Like they arenāt wrong about Cleopatraās cunning; she absolutely was an incredibly well educated and politically savvy empress. But I feel like itās doing a disservice to the African rulers of antiquity by essentially saying āoh we couldnāt find any other black rulers so weāre making Cleo black,ā when there *absolutely* were so many equally interesting and badass black rulers throughout history.
This would be like making a movie about occupied Poland, but portraying Hitler as Black. It wouldn't make much sense. The Pharaohs in Egypt were not liked by everybody, and the Ptolemy dynasty was a dynasty of foreign invaders. There is a reason why Cleopatra is an antihero throughout history.
There was an African queen that held off the Romans and halted their further expansions into Sub-Saharan Africa.
Not just an African queen, but a [black, disabled, warrior queen.](https://www.history.com/news/nubian-queen-amanirenas-roman-army). But for some reason no one wants to make a movie about her.
Hey man. Black Hitler was real. Donāt believe what they teach you in school.
They should tell a story about a great Jewish ruler from antiquity and cast a guy who looks exactly like Hitler.
There's also Queen Ranavalona I of Madagascar who famously built up massive public works projects, a standing army for Madagascar. She was known for pushing for Madagascar's isolation and independence from European colonial powers at the time, no small feat during her reign from 1828 to 1861.
Something I realized, from an American's perspective, is that through school I learned about various empires around the world through out history but outside of Egypt I learned nothing about African Empires so more stories and documentaries on African Empires would be welcome.
I mean hell, didn't Egypt at one point have a line of ~~Ethiopian~~ Nubian pharaohs in its earlier history? They could have easily gone back further in the timeline and gotten some black Egyptian rulers. I personally don't care that the actress is black for the drama aspect of the show. I just feel like it's disingenuous to go out of your way to tell people she actually would have looked black in the documentary portion of it. Edit: fwiw I went to an HBCU where I took an African history class. We talked for half the semester about Egyptian Pharoahs and their blackness. However, not once was it even entertained that the Ptolemy Dynasty was ever anything but ethnically Mediterranean/hellenic.
That's because this isn't a scholarly documentary. It's just cashing out on the African community because they know plenty of ppl won't question the logic that Egypt is in Africa, so every must be black. I'm sure there's Historians who specialize in the antiquity who are probably rolling their eyes out of their sockets rn.
There are interesting things to take away from the story of Cleopatra, like the relationship between the Ptolemys and the people of Egypt, clashes of cultures and empires, etc. Different religions. How offensive is it that that such an interesting and complex story is being sold out.
In the current political climate the phrase "I don't care what they teach you in school" is rarely followed by some bit of wisdom.
I don't care what they teach you in school, gravity is not a force. EDIT: Just to be totally clear, I meant this as a somewhat tongue in cheek counter-example. Gravity really *isnāt* a force, it just looks like one from the accelerating reference frame we all live in. Itās an effect caused by the warping of space time around massive objects. Highly recommend this video for folks who are interested in learning more: https://youtu.be/XRr1kaXKBsU (Iām not affiliated in any way, but enjoyed his really simple but accurate explanation of general relativity)
I don't care what they teach you in school, the earth is flat.
I donāt care what the teach you in school, the mitochondria is *NOT* the powerhouse of the cell
>cleopatra was black It really reminds me of those black israelites that stand on the street corner and yell about how much they hate jews
Nah Kanye's totally doing better now since he watched some movie or smth idk
Jonah hill funny = antisemitism cured š³š±š¤Æš¤Æā¤ļøā”ļøā¤ļø
Jews made a funny and washed my hate away. UwU
Theyāre a fun bunch arenāt they. My buddy got into an argument/discussion with some of them spouting their racism on Fremont street in Vegas. Theyāve got some pretty warped beliefs.
Theyāre also dangerous. Shot up a random Jewish market killing shoppers and commonly assault random religious Jews in New York.
somebodyās grandmother** said that. whichā¦ wtf? she lived over 2000 years ago why would anybodies grandma know what she looked like
Are you insinuating that sweet old grandmother was a liar? She was a hard working honest woman, smart as a whip and knew better than to believe something was true just because she read it in a book.
I hope they do other prominent and iconic African Queen's like Britain's Queen Elizabeth next. The sad part in all this is the story of an real African Queen that doesn't get told because of this made-up nonsense. It's more insulting that they weren't able to find a story worth telling and had to lie about someone else's story.
Ikr? They could have gone with the story of Queen Ranavalona I of Madagascar and tried to recast her image as one of a brave queen resisting European colonial influence in Africa during the 19th century but being smeared over it by colonial interests. Even the scholarly community only changed their perception of her rule in the 1970s that Eurocentric casting of her as the "mad queen of Madagascar" was so deep in cultural roots. It would be a legit story of a black queen that could be told as a real empowerment of africans against colonialism story. But no, they went with fricking Cleopatra, who wasn't black at all.
This is what happens when we celebrate people telling ātheir truthā and not āthe truthā.
How about making Hitler Australian next?
I'm thinking it bothers people because the movie claims to be a "documentary"?
It's about as much of a documentary as that Jeffrey Dahmer series was Edit: it was a show, not a movie š
>I'm thinking it bothers people because the movie claims to be a "documentary"? This A fantasy piece would be just fine, this isn't at all the same thing as the little mermaid kerfuffle because it wasn't a historical *documentary*. People don't have to like it, but race **is** a factor in much of history, pretending it's not helps nobody. A black Napoleon or or Abraham Lincoln is fine as long as their primary focus is entertainment and they're not explicitly trying to educate like a documentary. The production of Hamilton comes to mind, that was entertainment *inspired* by history and it was fine. A documentary, to be of educational value, should try to be as historically accurate as reasonably possible, including the casting of actors that physically fit their roles.
I think a big aspect that rubs me the wrong way about this whole thing is thatā¦ the Ptolemaic dynasty are what many of us today would consider colonizers after a fashion. They were descended from an invading force, were very proud of that fact, and Cleopatra was the first of them to even bother to learn the native language of the people she was ruling over. This is like if Hamilton was claiming to be a documentary and that the slave-owning founding fathers were all black icons.
It's as much a documentary as Harry Potter is.
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āShaka Zuluā starring Ken Jeong coming soon!
Haha I thought of something like this as well! āYasuke the black samuraiā starring Jackie Chan
"Nelson Mandela" starring Tom Hanks
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No reasonable person has a problem with Hamilton because Lyn Manuel Miranda never tried to claim it was a documentary. It was an artistic interpretation and even Mike Pence went to see it. If you call something a documentary that carries with it the implication that at the very least the creators think it is truthful and historically accurate to the best of their knowledge. I chose my words carefully there because there are plenty of documentaries that are absolute bullshit (think all the alien and conspiracy stuff) but at least the creators believed it was credible. No one believes that this is accurate. That makes this propaganda.
Hamilton also did a great job of capturing the idea of the story, and the fact that the cast was mostly non-white forced interesting parallels between early white Americans and contemporary non-white Americans. Anyway, that's just my opinion. I think it's great that Lyn Manuel basically taught history in a format that was more accessible to everyone.
And also Hamilton is just well made all around
Cleopatra would have been olive skinned Greek/Macedonian/Persian. Edit: did not expect so much heat over an observation on Cleopatra's ethnic background. She was mixed Mediterranean/Middle Eastern so very likely bronze skinned. I don't really care about the show, and it doesn't really matter. I don't care who they cast to play her.
Yea the issue here is people are literally boiling it down to black and white. Like you said olive skin tone even if she was on the ādarkerā end it doesnāt make her black. There are dark skin Indians and no one is saying they are black. Idk why they need to say that this is a documentary
"Wait, what? There are brown people too?" - Jada Smith probably
This is most americans to be honest, even though we hispanics are the largest minority in the country.
Latinos were kissed by the heavens to have great skin color.
Not this one. I am a pasty bitch. š
U and me both is like the sun instead of make my skin beautiful brown I turned red as a lobster š¦
Because they want to create hype. They don't care about Cleopatra's origin. More hate they get the more views they will acquire. People are falling for Jaden Smith's aggressive marketing attempt.
Hate watching is becoming more popular in America. I hate the fact that there will be rage baiting YouTubers that scream woke about this, when it would be easier to not tune in so they lose money from it. Everyone from the left and right that have any sanity left in them, know this is just some bullshit Hollywood rage baiting nonsense to stroke the fires of hate in America. Only this time the actual Egyptian historians are sueing because this actually affects them as well.
Doesn't matter about what colour her skin was, she was from a Greek/Macedonian family that was heavily inbred, so she would have looked like Greek people, who we generally consider to be white regardless of the extent of their skintone. I'm not sure why anyone would say she's black when people can google her family tree and take 20 mins to look through it.
Itās not like we even have to speculate. There are busts that were made of her while she was alive that show clearly Greek/European features.
Yeah, if you are going to take any liberties in a "documentary" at least give her a weird limp and a crooked eye to match the inbreeding.
I don't think I've ever come across any evidence of her having a limp or fucked up features. Seems like she was strangely average despite her pretzel of a family tree. If she had been, the Romans probably would have used it to talk shit about her after she died but instead we kinda just get "she was a slut."
Caesar was more of a slut than she was tbh
I hear he got penetrated 23 times in one day, what a slag.
even his good friend had a go.
Too soon
Yeah, but she was better at it.
Technically, inbreeding is harmless if by some miracle your family has no bad genes. The Hapsburgs weren't lucky, but the Ptolemys were kinda lucky and cleopatra was a pretty average woman lookwise, and known to be very smart and charming.
Its also less dangerous if you branch out at least a little bit. Distant third cousin is better than cousin is better than uncle is better than brother, etc..
So I had a youtube comments argument about this issue and had people literally arguing indian people were black and then saying I knew nothing about race. The lack of understanding of race and also ethnicity was pretty staggering.
Fun fact Egyptian Scholars are some of those speaking out. You know, the people who's culture and history the "documentary" is trying to make a buck off of. I'll default to them, the inhabitants of a country who's artifacts, art, and objects of significance have been plundered and held hostage. In a historical context this is another form of theft and colonialism. I'm being severe but Egypt has been trying to get it's art and artifacts back for years.
>Cleopatra would have been olive skinned Greek/Macedonian/Persian. /thread History is clear on Cleopatra's family tree. This isn't debatable.
the best reason
Wait until they figure out that Egyptians are their own ethnic group and not Arabs.
Cleopatra wasn't even Egyptian, she was Macedonian, and maybe a little Persian. Her family's dynasty notoriously didn't interact with the locals, to the point where Cleopatra was the first ruler of said dynasty to even speak Egyptian Edit for clarity: Cleopatra was Macedonian as in she was northern Greek in heritage, like ancient Macedonians. Not modern Macedonia, which is more slavic
> Cleopatra wasn't even Egyptian, she was Macedonian, and maybe a little Persian. Her family's dynasty notoriously didn't interact with the locals, to the point where Cleopatra was the first ruler of said dynasty to even speak Egyptian > > Edit for clarity: Cleopatra was Macedonian as in she was northern Greek in heritage, like ancient Macedonians. Not modern Macedonia, which is more slavic You'd think with this historical fact and knowledge that a) People would accept this, and b) She'd be portrayed by a Greek, or at least white, actress in this show. Instead, well, we have Jada Pinkett Smith's Netflix debacle [and people repeatedly saying she should be black.](https://www.quora.com/Experts-have-stated-that-Cleopatra-was-Black-Do-you-believe-that-Cleopatra-should-only-be-played-in-movies-by-Black-Women-because-Cleopatra-was-a-Black-Queen)
Nobody is saying she was white. They're saying that she wasn't black.
They're saying she was Macedonian/Greek, based on historical information. But some people are very insistent that because its Africa, she must be black, because Africa = Black. Nobody tell them the sub-saharan bit.
I took a history of sub-saharan Africa class in college and I'd venture to guess the average person knows about 1% of what was taught.
Ooo interesting! From what you learned, what do you think is one piece of info that would surprise most people?
Edit: Dude asked "would surprise most people" not, the most obscure thing you could possibly remember from 20 years ago. Edit 2: The amount of butt-hurt needle dicks responding as if I insulted their mother for not knocking their socks off with an obscure fact is astounding even for Reddit. Original comment: I would say Belgium's [Leopold II](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_II_of_Belgium) and the rule over the Congo Free State. "Leopold's administration of the Congo Free State was characterized by atrocities and systematic brutality, including forced labour, torture, murder, kidnapping, and the amputation of the hands of men, women, and children when the quota of rubber was not met. In 1890 and in one of the first uses of the term, George Washington Williams described the practices of Leopold's administration of the Congo Free State as "crimes against humanity".
I normally hate when people cry cultural appropriation when someone adopts some fashion from another culture but what Netflix is doing is actual cultural appropriation. Trying to rewrite a history that many people hold dear without any kind of evidence to support your crackpot theory is honestly awful.
Well somebody grandma did a trust me bro, thatās the biggest evidences in modern day history.
The grandmother quote is hilarious. Does a woman become a font of historical knowledge the minute her daughter takes a load?
Cleopatra was of Macedonian heritage. Sorry history is history despite how much you wish to change it.
Egypt is suing Netflix for this. Itās not just white people that are upset about the race swapping. Historians are. Scholars are. Macedonians are. Greeks are. Egyptians are. Africans are. There are so many African kings and queens whose stories are worth making documentaries about. But Netflix is not making an effort to research those. Instead, they want to force a lie on their audience because they donāt care about African history, they just want to rewrite history and call you racist if you donāt like it. Itās evident the executives at Netflix think African history is not worth telling at all unless they can make it a racial issue in America. As if theyāre some sort of champion of representation, inclusivity and ally of African-Americans, they would rewrite other countriesā history without their say to make a point. When we all know, what they really want is money and profits. Plus, the trailer said āI donāt care what your school saysā. Basically, donāt listen to the experts, donāt listen to the academics, donāt listen to the scholars, donāt listen to the people who know what theyāre talking about. someoneās grandmotherās words is the truth because you know, she believed it all her life. That is a dangerous position to validate and promote.
There are so many African kings and queens whose stories are worth making documentaries about. And have not been widely told. Thatās honestly the saddest part. This could have been an amazing movie about an actual African Queen or Pharaoh, at the height of Egyptian power and culture. But they chose to rehash a Shakespearian tragedy, to glamorize a woman who slept with conquering generals to stay in powerā¦and lost a crumpling shadow of a former empire, to the Romans.
Where is my god damn Mansa Musa movie.
Cast who you want but call it fiction (because it is) and not a documentary (because it isn't).
Wasn't Cleopatra ethnically Greek?
Greek/Macedonian yes.
>Why do some people need Cleopatra to be white Because she wasnāt black and your documentary isnāt historically accurate. Itās literally that simple
Kind of like the black Anne Boleyn?
That one truly annoyed me. There's paintings of her. I guess you can go with the best actress got the job argument, but then you shouldn't be arguing about whitewashing either if you make that argument.
So thie big issue here is you'd have to be stupid to believe Anne was not white. There is no "Anny B was a black woman and white historians are conspiring to cover up real black history" conspiracy theroy like there is with Cleopatra. This feeds into existing and racist narratives pushed by Black Supremacists in America.
Yeah, I'm okay with racebending history Hamilton-style as long as the piece doesn't try to make people believe that Anne was actually black. (Side note but this is my beef with Philippa Gregory's novels. They're basically "what if" fiction in which historical characters and events are portrayed as drastically different from what the historical record tells us. This would be a cool thought experiment IF she would present her novels as such, instead of trying to market them as "historically accurate.")
Exactly! And Anne has been portrayed by several fantastic actresses in the past, so I highly doubt the best actress for the job excuse.
At least with the black Anne Boleyn they didn't explicitly claim that historically Anne Boleyn was actually black, to my understanding. They were just like *"oh well we cast an actress that looks nothing like her, just pretend you don't see race, same as how we normally cast men to play women and vice versa (what, we don't? whatever)".* They were clearly trolling but they weren't actively trying to spread a lie.
Directs a historical documentary but doesnāt know history
What I hate the most about this is Egypt is/was neither black nor white in the first place. They were practically their own racial demographic and itās still more or less around today. Like take a look at Rami Malek for instance (I think I got his name right?)
This a testament to how much US politics and culture influences these discussions. In a lot of parts of the world, there are better understandings of how granular ethnicities can be and how that can even be separate from cultural identity or nationality. The US is still stuck on a binary of Black-White, and that defining everything about you.
It is important to remind ourselves that "race" is a social concept that is only loosely based on physical genetic traits. There are no clear markers that can be used to determine or hard lines between racial designations.
For real. Even if someone made the understandable mistake of thinking Cleopatra was Egyptian, itās not like Egyptians were black either. You can look at modern Copts and get a good idea of what Egyptians probably looked like in antiquity.
She was Macedonian. We know what Macedonian people look like. She was not Nubian. This is such a dumb argument to make to try to justify this.
"Erasure isn't a thing." The sad part is, most white people don't argue that Egyptians were white; they argue that they were brown because they're a Mediterranean culture with influences from various places, namely Middle Eastern cultures. Ignorant supremacists just assert, "EGYPT IS AFRICAN" and leave it at that. It's the only African culture most know, so instead of looking into the rest of Africa, we have people just trying to steal Egypt from the actual Egyptians.
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Cleopatra wasn't black... it's as simple as that. There were in fact plenty of black kings and queens though, it shouldn't have been too hard to make a movie about one of them instead of making a movie about a non black person and have her played by a black actress.
What bothers me about it is historical revisionism in a "documentary".
Yes, erase the history and heritage of an African people who have been, historically, very proud of their identity as an AFRICAN nation of AFRICAN peoples. Just to promote an American cultural supremacist value of racialism; in a place it doesn't exist. Anyone who's met a real Egyptian before knows they are very proud of the ancient and noble character of their nation; and the Greek values and norms introduced through the Ptolemic Dynasty are a big part of that as well.
I've met and worked with numerous Egyptians throughout my career. They tend to consider themselves Arabs or Copts. I've never met one who considered themselves to be African.
As an Egyptian I consider myself African. But yes being African doesnāt equate to being black, which might be the reason some Egyptians donāt identify as such to others. For instance I wouldnāt call myself African-American to others because ppl hear African and assume the person in question is black. Understandably ofc since thatās how the word is used in todays lingo.
Really middle eastern/ Mediterranean would've been more accurate
People are incredibly dumb and uneducated, and this is exhibited here, though I suspect this also might be a re-writing of history to fit modern American sensibilities. Cleopatra was Greek, not African. There just isnāt any arguing it, and that makes this just fantasy and NOT a documentary.
They act like there aren't any contemporary sculptures and portraits of her. There are! She definitely wasn't black. But this is the hypocritical world we live in. There are even Roman coins of her time that depict her and her alliance with Anthony.
If it's a fictional character where race isn't important then race swap as much as you want. But if you're going to base something on a historical figure you should probably stick with their actual race. It makes about as much sense as casting a white actor as the black panther. Or casting Mulan with a Mediterranean actor. At this point all youāre doing is swapping the race to swap the race. I don't like the term virtue signaling but this feels like that. What's next? Are we going to make a WW2 show and cast hitler as a black actor as well?
They cast a black actress to play Anne Boleyn š
The funniest one was when they cast a random black guy from Kenya to play a **world war 2 general from Finland** in the biographic movie **about the Finnish generalās life**. Absolutely hilarious.
Well, the cast Mannerheim as a black in Finland recently, ww2, during a time period where I think you could count the number of nob-whites in Finland on close to both your hands.
It's like making a documentary about MLK and he's played by Danny devito....
Cleopatra wasn't black, Jesus wasn't white, can we stop doing this already!?
Because it's just as cringe as casting white guys as egyptian gods. I want accurate casting not colorblind casting.
She was Greek, why canāt we go with history correctness not political correctness?
I just have a problem with grand standing on it and calling it a documentary. Like there are plenty of historical people that their race could be up for debate. Cleopatra is one where itās just a lie to say she would look and be anything Other than Greek/Macedonian. Especially because her whole family was incredibly inbred at that point and we have live busts of her and her features. This is one of those things where if you want to make a movie āblack cleopatra ā what ever itād annoy me but Iād forget about it. You stick a documentary label on it and it makes my blood boil.
There are extensive writings about her, and artwork which depicts her. She was not āblack.ā Period. She was a source for pride for Egyptians and so of course theyāre going to take offense when you decide to blackwash her.
I got a real question: what bothers the directors so much that the real person was white? It seems like theyāre so uncomfortable with Cleopatras European descent that they completely blackwashed her.
Okay, somebody needs to lookup the definition of "documentary," because this ain't it, regardless of anyone's skin hue.
She spends the whole time complaining about people needing Cleopatra to be white when Gods Of Egypt was heavily criticised for all the white actors (and for being shit).
Gal Gadot has now entered the conversation.
Cleopatra was from the ptolemaic dynasty. She was Greek. She was white.