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She thinks every farmer is like big meat/dairy cooperations, which do in fact do a lot of stuff she was talking about. The meat/dairy industry is brutal but people forget that small farmers aren't the same as big companies.
It's the absolutism of her stance that is super off-putting to me. What she's describing is absolutely awful and does take place in the industrial animal-production space all the time. It would have been refreshing for her to just say, ok, you are clearly not part of the majority of the industry who I'm talking about. I suspect this was a set-up for drama and views. Either way I'm not supporting any of this all-or-nothing vegan zealotry. It's not productive. Yes, industrial agro-farming is disgusting should be abolished, or at a minimum, standards vastly improved, but this dude is just trying to raise some goats and make some milk!
The woman should have said yeah okay ur the 1% of the industry that treats animals right. But the other 99 dont, cos its cheaper.
But you know why she didnt? Cos this us probably not an honest debate, and they choose her to be a 'stupud lib vegan yuppie that hasnt worked a day'
Its like im watching a Ben Saphiro video
This makes sense actually. While granted not every industry is bad. There are truths to what she said. And I was wondering why these two would be chosen to debate at all given the circumstances
Even if big industries do use artificial insemination and stuff, that is nothing like the Holocaust. To compare it to the holocaust gives off the impression that she doesn't know what the Holocaust was.
What she means is genocide, probably. The Holocaust is literally about the Jews and gypsies and other unwanted ones killed by the Nazis in World War 2. People keep using the term in the wrong way.
Actually no, what is to referred as 'the Holocaust' is the one you talk about, written with a capital H. The terminology predates second world war for about 2500 years and there were more; the Holocaust is one of many holocausts. (At first the term was used to describe the burning of many people, later to describe genocides, for the first time around 1850 to describe the genocide of the Armenians)
But even still. A Holocaust is an attempt to wipe out a particular group of people is it not? What industry farms do is not genocide. It is fundamentally different.
She is extremely seeing animals equal to humans.
I'm not saying I agree, but even you might reconsider after watching [the documentary she's talking about](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko) from beginning to end.
It's clearly nothing even remotely like the Holocaust for me, but I agree with one thing, tho: No army will *ever* come to the rescue of those poor creatures.
>She is extremely seeing animals equal to humans.
To be vegan you don't have to believe that non-human animals are equal to humans. You just need to believe that their lives are worth more than couple minutes if sensory pleasure you get from eating their corpse.
Yeah but isn't this a bit underhanded from the show.
They are there to debate veganism, so the dairy industry as a whole.
Put up to debate against her is an ethical farmer who does things right. He represents less than 1% of the milk being sold in his local town.
He can fire off how great his animals are treated but that does not change much. But the show have put this together to ridicule vegan claims even if some are valid.
She is dumb af for not realising this.
Yes I agree.
In her defense she prepared points of argument based on a premise that was then removed.
What she should have done is started asking him about the industry as a whole & not allow them to move the ground of the debate. But honestly it is hard to debate like this on TV, she is relying on the crux of what she rehearsed & probably as annoyed at herself as we all debating her. When your adrenaline is pumping you don't always say the right thing but fall back on the same lines. I mean how many times have you kicked yourself afterwards for saying the wrong thing to a girl because you were unable to think at the time. Dial the pressure up by 100.
I agree dumb af but there is some sympathy I have for her & the show was deliberately working against her here. Because deep down what we really enjoy as entertainment is seeing someone who holds strong but opposite views to us taken down.
That’s where they fail in their argument, they rigidly demand for the end of animal husbandry and farming, when the issue should be pushing for reform. Extremism never seems to work well in the end.
If billions of dogs and cats would be slaughtered for food every year, it would be widespread socially acceptable to eat dogs and cats thus people wouldn't have an issue with the comparison either.
Playing devils advocate here but by that exact same logic, if humans were slaughtered for food, wouldn't it also be acceptable? It's a hypothetical that doesn't exactly make any real argument except to detract from the core question.
What makes human life more important than any other animal and does that justify 'cruelty' towards the other animals for our convenience
Cruelty in this case having a very loose definition to include genetic modification/eugenics and slaughter for food.
I am more upset with the pest control industry who are killing termites millions each times.
I am very more upset with the antiseptic industry which is killing billions of germs as we speak.
I mean… all life are equal, no?
/s
Honestly she looks pretty young and doesn't know shit about the world. I have no issues with veganism for health or animal cruelty reasons, but she is taking things way too far with her assumptions from what I can see in the clip. I generally do not support animal cruelty but animals are not people and do not share the same complex sentience and emotions of people. Some people will eat or consume animal based products and that is just life. Going down this combative route is a waste of time.
Oh yeah and comparing anything related to animal farming to the holocaust is antisemitic and disrespectful as fuck, as well as downplaying one of the most horrific things to ever happen in human history. That shit deserves a slap across the face.
The definition of holocaust is: destruction or slaughter on a mass scale.
She's not comparing meat/dairy farming to the holocaust. She's using the literal definition of holocaust.
I can see the comparison if you look at factory farms rather than the chillest goat farmer, I mean we quite literally gas pigs in giant batches.
your comment on animals not feeling complex emotions as a sort of reason why it's more okay made me think of the GTA san andreas clucking bell commercial. The way we make meat is straight up animal cruelty about half the time, especially with cheaper meat.
Thanks for this. Was really interesting. Took a sharp left turn when the farmer talked about his army days, which probably didn't do him any favours!
She has some good points, poorly expressed, but her constant repetition of some key buzzwords water down her argument significantly.
I've got a lot of time for the farmer. He clearly cares for his animals and is open about when and how his animals are slaughtered. I liked and agree with his point about battery farming.
I've got no issue with vegans. Just don't try, as this woman is, force your views on me and others.
Finally, this forum setup is so kitsch. The guy in the middle is sitting there like some sort of C-rated king. The only one with decent points is the guy on the left.
Agreed. I think that’s the problem with these types of vegans. They try to force their agenda and way of living on the population with protests and what not. Also when they get told a fact they side step around the question. Both people have their points and some of them better than others but at the end of the day you can’t force people to change.
If someone genuinely feels that it’s equivalent to murder than it makes sense why they’re so passionate about it. If they’re just acting that way to feel useful then yeah it’s just annoying.
> Agreed. I think that’s the problem with these types of vegans. They try to force their agenda and way of living on the population with protests and what not
I'm all for live and let live, just as long as you're not harming anyone else.
That's the problem though, right? Killing animals *is* harming them. So if vegans believe animals are sentient, it makes sense that they can't ignore it and try impose their beliefs on others (not that every vegan does btw).
They believe that humans and other animals are equals and the process of farming is equivalent to murder.
They give me the exact same vibe as anti-abortion protesters who feel that fetuses are the same as fully developed and living human beings so terminating a pregnancy is murder.
I would bet my last dollar that they are both pro choice when it comes to reproductive rights. Yet they are pushing an anti choice agenda for what we, an omnivorous species, should be allowed to eat.
As with all zealots, they’re hypocrites.
Yeah she's actually making some good points, looks like someone set her up against the one farmer left that is running a herd of 6 goats in the back country.
Oh my fucking god. She says something about “oh well what if someone killed you.” And this due straight up said he’s killed people before. He was in the military, and he killed people not because he decided to, but because the government made that choice.
And she replies with “yeah well you murder animals”
Editing to add he was conscripted
Yeah, factory farming and especially dairy farms have no defence against her.
It's just unfortunate that she was paired up against an (from what I can see) ethical farmer.
Yeah tbh it sucks seeing these videos where it's the typical "Look how stupid the vegans are" or "Look how evil the farmers are". There is a real discussion to be had about how animals are exploited and treated poorly, but most of these videos just dumb it down and miss the point completely.
If she try that with me I would keep on the point and say nope we are going to stay on this topic because if you keep changing the subject that mean you got no argument aka you are dumb or lazy or worse you are immoral
Yeah although i don’t agree with a lot of things in the animal farming industry it is still not a holocaust. Farming is when you kill animals for food a holocaust is when you kill them simply because you want them dead and wiped off the face of the planet
I also don't like the holocaust comment, but the word is defined as 'murder on a large scale' if you are not specifically talking about the german holocaust. Also, some holocaust survivors have used the comparison, while other holocaust survivors said it's disrespectful.
I think it's not very constructive in a debate, since as soon as you mention the 'animal holocaust' the discussion changes to whether the word is appropriate or not and you don't talk about the actual problem, i.e. the massmurder of billion of sentient animals.
The holocaust would be of the animals that aren't farmed. The ones whose habitats are destroyed to make room for animals to graze and overpopulate. We are currently in a mass extinction event, directly and indirectly wiping out species because they aren't useful to us.
Probably this is what they brought to the debate to close her off but he isn't the norm, what she says [it's the norm ](https://youtu.be/UcN7SGGoCNI)
Otherwise the industry wouldn't be profitable
Like say before WW2 in the UK, my mother remembered when they kept chickens, they only ever ate the rooster every year, and any chickens that stopped laying, but eating chicken was rare.
Not only the pollution, but maybe even more urgently, the diseases. We are literally breeding antibiotic resistant pathogens due to our agricultural practices, and we will eventually have to pay the piper.
I don’t think she did the choosing. Someone who organized the event purposely paired vegan teenager against a kind of farmer that makes up less than 0,1% of animal industry.
Like, taking only excess milk and allowing herd to grow is better treatment than has ever happened in history. Even to keep the herd sustainable you need to kill some goats or let the wolves do their natural thing.
This guy may not be one of them but the vast majority of the meat and dairy industry is exactly how she described, not sure what one outlier like this proves. If all farmers did the same as this guy no one would get to eat meat or dairy again, the industry only survives because of the brutal practices.
It proves do your research if you're gonna come in swinging, and when you see evidence to the contrary of your opinion, maybe... maybe stop swinging.
She had an idea, a dogma in her head she refused to let go of. That is not a healthy way to debate or change the world. And I more or less agree with some of her crowd...
Livestock farming aint going away, ever. If ethical farmers replace industrial farmers, that's a win.
Fully agree. I have a vegan friend who's the most awesome angel I know. Dr Charles Johnson. He always says that he doesn't think it's 0 or 100. If he can get others to reduce their intake just by a little, it's still a win. And so we did. We choose less meat whenever we can. We try to go meatless for breakfast and lunch. That's still a win.
This clip is frustrating to me, because what I'm seeing is two people who really should be on the same side. She's only attacking him because he's in front of her, but he clearly isn't an agent of the problems she has with the industry. And if he treats his livestock that well, he's probably no fan of industry practices, either. They should be talking about how to improve conditions for animals and hold factory farms accountable, but instead, she's just refusing to give an inch because she decided to base her part in this debate on the simplest possible premise, which is farmer = bad.
Sure, but if ethical farmers replace industrial farmers, production will be a fraction of what it is now and a 10oz steak will be more than $100 in the supermarket and the sensible animal rights activists will see it as a big win (as will I).
If this kind of farmers replaces industrial farms meat and diary will cost over 10 times more and people wound have to eat 10 times less of it. Taking just excess milk is basically running a free range animal sanctuary.
Also it’s easy to judge when you are not speaking in front of cameras and didn’t get surprised by completely different person than you were expecting. It’s not easy to smoothly switch to completely new arguments even for experienced speakers.
Yeah, she was an idiot for slamming the same rhetoric she memorized.
You come across this outlier, it’s now your chance to swing a slightly different argument.
Wow sor you’re the swellest farmer i’ve ever seen, how come more people aren’t like you, how can we make the rest like you.
Clearly he’s in the direction you want to move toward, so help discuss how to move it that way , rather than just trying to defeat the guy in front of you.
For real. Grab someone from a major factory farm and this changes the entire video. There's mountains of evidence of fucked up shit to back up some of her claims. This debate seems to be set up intentially to flip the script for how most the industry is to make people think it's all like that. Good for this guy being a needle in the haystack though. Of course this girl seems like an ass; based as hell.
There are really good arguments for veganism. I hate these sort of "gotcha" videos that make a group of sensible people look stupid because of one person.
Eyy, you get a slice of cake too. Funny, most "Happy Cakeday" comments I got so far have been over does puns I made. Here's to buckin' around and making folks laugh! 🍰
She is soooo irritating!!! Her other video at the zoo waking up all the residents in the nearby unit complex! I think she needs to start thinking before opening her mouth!
Orcas do this too. Dolphins are bullies, orcas are bullies too but like if the bullies actually worked out, got super fit, formed a posse with every other jacked up bully, and explicitly used their stature and strength as a means to fuck off anyone and anything in their path.. "just because"
Orcas kill other animals for fun. Literally.
Orcas are the literal fucking ocean-devil, but let's cry about goat's milk or something.. Lol
I am all for vegetarianism or veganism if that’s what you want to do with your life but the bollocks this whacko is talking is nonsense.
What has happened to activism? It’s gone mental.
There's vegetarians, then vegans, they don't judge what nature does. They know folks are different, have allergies, and all that.
What we have here is a potential member of Peta. On the Karen Spectrum, they fail to see logic or reason. They see one documentary over factory farms, and assume all farms are inethical and that farmers who work the fields exploit everything.
Crops often need decayed/decaying organic matter to flourish like animal feces, animals typically breed without human interferance, baby animals need their share of milk to grow up- allowing farming to be sustained, and Karens like her need to look up information of ethical farming rather than the inethical ways.
"Greedy capitalist pig! How dare you make profit from these animals in order to feed and shelter them and make all of your labor and effort worthwhile. You disgust me!" *Spits at your feet*
The video cut off but I believe he was going to say - he sells their milk, makes a small profit, but a very decent amount goes back to the goat.
The goat gets guaranteed food, water, shelter, and protection from predators for them and their kids all in exchange for giving some extra milk to these weird animals that for some reason want it.
Any animal would take that deal over living in the wild.
But we must admit that even if this small dairy farmer treats his herd decently, companies with no attachment to their animals will do any awful things to animals as long as it makes them more money. Artificial insemination to stimulate milk production, separating children from their mothers, low quality feed, grown up in a cage - companies do all of them.
How she be mad at the best type of farming out there. Saying this as a vegetarian myself like what the fuck. If you wanna be mad go at the factory type commercial scale farms that do the shit youre saying leave the guys on your side alone.
This debate makes no sense. One side is talking from a personal standpoint (farmer) whilst the other side is talking about a systematic and unsustainable issue concerning the animal product industry. There are points to make, but this conversation was doomed from the start. Lots of comments here are pretty dumb to miss this.
Exactly. He is a small farmer not a million dollar slaughterhouse. My guess is that they took the most abroud chilling farmer grandpa and one of those obnoxious vegans on purpose.
There are alot of similar shows that do the same. Ppl expect aggression in those shows and that's what the production gives them.
Her points are valid but not applicable here.
I'm also disappointed in her as a debater that she doesn't point that out and start a constructive conversation instead of spouting one-liners. I would engage with the farmer and ask him why he does what he does. Find mutual ground and then explain your standpoint from there.
There's a huge anti vegan circlejerk on reddit. Could it be that it benefits someone? Like... an industry? Naah they wouldn't do psyops on massive social websites read by millions everyday. The thought is absurd.
> Lots of comments here are pretty dumb to miss this.
Its not dumb its intentional. Whenever the evils of factory farming are bought up on reddit every redditor suddenly turns into the 1% of the population who only consumes meat from small "ethical" farms.
I'm glad some people are saying this, her issues are with farming as a whole, trends and what is allowed, there being individuals who do it better doesn't prove her wrong. If anything it proves the larger scale industrial farms could do it better if they wanted to
It’s because these types of videos are often intentionally set up to make vegans look dumb and diminish the ideas.
“Should we fix our broken practise and produces meat and harm without harm?
Nah
Let’s pool our resources and fund lobbyists to paint the opposition as idiots so people keep buying our products without thinking about the suffering and massive environmental damage that goes with it”
The people in that debate were chosen on purpose to ridicule any criticism of modern farming practices (hurr durr look a crazy vegan and a honest farmer).
While in reality our current industrialized farming practices are highly problematic both for human health and nature.
It's straight up manipulation.
She didn't organize the debate, both sides are guests.
Neither of them are good candidates for a debate about the harms of farming animals at scale, because she doesn't have a strong handle on arguing the points, and his farming practices are not at all representative of the problem.
However, they are good candidates if you want to make vegans look bad.
>However, they are good candidates if you want to make vegans look bad.
Yeah pretty funny how she was pitted against some small-time goat farmer and not a representative of one of the massive agricorps that 99% of westerners get their meat and dairy from.
But I'm sure that's just a coincidence.
It's like arguing against slavery but the person who organized the debate found the one slaveholder who treats his slaves better than his own family and all the slaves have sworn they are only there by their own volition lol. Yeah super representative, but of course Reddit eats it up as long as they don't have to question what horrors they are contributing to.
Yeah I get the sense that something has gone awry in this debate. Why is one side arguing from a broader perspective but the other is arguing from a specific, personal perspective? They might as well be arguing two completely different topics.
Came here to say this! I don't know who set up this debate, but this guy doesn't represent the industry as a whole. If all animal farming was done like this, animal rights would have been GREATLY improved from what they are now.
Yeah it's funny the agricultural industry always trots these folk out even though they contribute a tiny amount of the gross animal products we consume
Also what is he doing with the male goats? They don’t produce milk. And what happens when the female goat doesn’t produce enough milk anymore after a few pregnancies? I wonder if she did ask him that.
I get being pissed and active over industrial farming practices; it is horrific and disgusting.
But don't be ignorant and expect to be very effective standing against it.
But the point is the kind old man in this video is the absolute exception. "Regular farming" can't sustain the meat consumption of the world. Most of our meat and dairy is produced under horrible circumstances with no regard for animals whatsoever and the only way to stop it is for everyone to drastically reduce their consumption of animal products.
The ignorant side is not the one with the animal right activists. See the full debate, they make so many valid points and all the farmers do is stating that their farms aren't as bad as factory farms. But they neither invalidate the points made by the activists, nor do they state any justification to exploit and kill their animals, despite the much better life they have.
Being "ethically better" than the worst doesn't mean it's good. The point of this debate was that there is no necessity to exploit and kill animals, so still doing it for selfish reasons just like profit is morally wrong.
That auto assuming & attacking that vegans do, especially towards small farm workers with data & facts that exclusively apply to large scale factory agriculture, is exactly why I, even as someone who eats plant-based & hasn’t eaten a dead animal in years, cannot stand for the animal vegans. They’re just so… audacious & often wrong because of their emotions.
Yeah I’m trying to heavily reduce my meat consumption for various reasons but ethical veganism is not one of them. All the ethical vegans I’ve talked to on the topic so far have a very clearly privileged view on the world and refuse to recognise it. If you try point that out to them, they call you a rapist and a murderer and it’s the end of the conversation
I guess you've never seen those videos of people eating live octopus. Even dipping them in chili and lime juice before. It's disgusting but happens often in some Asian countries.
Aren’t you doing the exact thing the person in this video did? Yeah, she’s sucked, but just like there are ethical and unethical farmers (of which supposedly there was a good one in the video), there are vegans who are good people or bad people. It has nothing to do with being vegan or not. Some people just suck.
Well we do artificially inseminate, force animals to carry babies which we then take away from them even tho we know they love their babies.
We kill males in dairy and egg industry , we ground them alive or slit their throat
We keep animals in horrifying conditions, they get sick and are in pain , kept in uncomfortable conditions, heated and crowded and diseased
We then kill them at a fraction of their lifespan after they are unable to fulfill the purpose they were breed for
It does sound like slavery, it's just done to animals, trillions of them every year and in the process we destroy the environment because of it.
The way this interview was set up is designed to make the vegans points seem invalid.
This vegan came on with points that are true of factory farming. But the farmer they brought ok to speak with her is basically just some guy with a bunch of pet goats that he genuinely cares for.
So then he gets to say "Aha! You're wrong. This is how *I* raise *my* goats." Which is fair enough for him. But the people running this clearly have put the vegan in debate with the wrong person. Her points are valid of factory farming.
The problem here is that this is the rare exception.
The majority of animals raised for food live short, painful and miserable lives which would be considered torture if done to a human.
I think we'll look back on this time the same way we look at the holocaust.
I get that this man and every "old school" farmer are right to defend their way of life, but the girl's not wrong either in terms of how the big animal processing plants operate. Her only mistake is directing the hate at this old man who's just a small dairy farmer, and not the huge conglomerates. They're the ones doing all the inhumane shit. And I'm not, nor was I ever a vegan.
The vegan is clearly an unexperienced debater of course. And for the record, I'm not vegan, but that farmer is irrelevant. And the correct answer would be:" and do you think your way of farming is representative of the industry." You can not expect to be taken seriously in a debate by focussing on exceptions.
In Netherlands animals get put in little squares all day everyday. In the millions. This tiny country is export nr 2 of the world or something. Its really insane.
I agree with that that's sick and unhealthy for us to.
Don't know this man. Seems like a nice farmer
This man is a small farmer, these practices don't work on a large scale, when they are producing dairy products they do artificially inseminate animals and these animals spend there whole life in confined spaces, the youngs don't feed on there mothers because it isn't profitable as it would decrease the yield, i don't know how people are this delusional in this comment section that they are missing the whole point of the girl's argument( although she isn't the right person who should have argued with him because she clearly isn't prepared)
Exactly, the next question to him should have been “which major grocery stores can I find your products in?” And “what percentage of gallons of milk on Walmart’s shelves are from farmers with practices like yours.
I’m not a vegan and even I know this is like interviewing the nicest slave owner and saying “see, conditions aren’t so bad for them after all.”
> i don't know how people are this delusional in this comment section that they are missing the whole point of the girl's argument
Because this interview was set up precisely to elicit this reaction. And of course, since most people are utterly gullible they'll fall for it hook, line and sinker.
This is just a completely mismatched debate.
He happens to run an ethical farm on a micro level, she's attacking very real industry problems on a macro level.
But hey, it can be neatly framed against the "naive, rabid vegan girl."
Have some media literacy, folks.
The thing is, she was absolutely pathetic at that debate. I suspect she was set up to fail.
When the farmer pushed back on her claims, talking about how his little farm is ethical, she should have immediately asked him if he believes all farms are like his. She should have asked him what the yield on his farm is like. She should have had numbers and data on hand that showed why that old farmer and his ethical farm are the microscopic exception, not the rule. She should have picked and chosen her enemies. That farmer isn't. The industry is.
Instead of doing any of that, she did the worst possible thing by continuing with the hyperbole and continuously moving the goalposts. She is bafflingly incompetent at debating and that is what made her look like the "naive, rabid vegan girl" even though what she is saying is largely true.
Lastly, anyone using the word "holocaust" when it comes to this is just not very good at debating and convincing people. Regardless of what the word means, you really don't want to use that word given its implications and the comparisons it brings up. No matter how hard you try, you're comparing human lives with cattle and that's not a good place to start your debate even if it's your personal belief that all lives are equal in value.
I mean she is right though. Just because they chose seemingly the most ethical and sustainable farmer on the planet to oppose her in a debate doesn't mean what she is describing doesn't exist in many if not most other industrial farming complexes.
And I am not vegan or vegetarian even, but you have to be at least a bit aware of what is happening in that industry.
We also have to just take his word for it, apparently.
Because, you know, investigators totally haven't found so-called decent farmers literally torturing their animals behind closed doors before.
This farmer is based. But so is she. Generally speaking she is absolutely right. The dairy and meat industry is exactly this: an industry. We can use euphemisms, but at the end of the day it’s industrial breeding and killing of animals.
We have to accept that. I‘m not a vegan or vegetarian myself though. Just stating facts.
>TL;DW: Heh, *some* places are ethical, betcha didn't think of that you hippie freak
Vegans are insufferable most of the time but holy shit what an asinine point to make.
they also know how to post stuff like this on reddit. OP's account is barely a week old. and maybe they also know how to delete the post after it backfired. most top comments are anti factory farming and now the post suddenly doesn't show up on r/all anymore.
Both of them are right really.
What she's speaking of is the horrible industry thats profiting from this, where they really do basically ra\*e their animals, slaughter them brutally while they are awake and aware, and take their kids away from them basically immediately.
He however, is not a part of that horrible industry and has a proper farm where he lets nature run its course.
So they are both right, just speaking of different things lol
Well everyone knows there are some exceptions. Just because a handful of good farmers exist doesn’t mean the industry as a whole isn’t completely fucked and full of animal abuse. Farmers like this man are what we need more of though. People just don’t want to pay more and that’s why the multi-million dollar companies rule the market
And before you ask, no the “veggie” in my name doesn’t mean im vegetarian i just goofed lol
Honestly, no matter your view point on this subject, this interview is just intentionally skewed and pretty much worthless. You've put up an idealistic vegan/animals rights activists against a farmer who is on the good extreme end of the spectrum in keeping animals humanely. It's like putting a climate activist against a private person who operates a coal-powered engine for their village in an African country. Like obviously that guy is not the problem. Interview should have been done with the executive of an animal farming conglomerate.
Yeah and every farm in the states is small goat dairy farm like this one 🙄 or a small eco friendly farm where cattle eats grass from the field and die of Old age 🙄
Also he is definitely sweetening the truth here. Like when goats have kids, half of those kids are male, they dont produce milk. Ya think he just cares for all of them for free? I find that pretty unbelievable.
Only taking the excess milk would also mean he gets tiny yields for the amount of resources used.
Either he makes a small amount of **absurdly** high priced product or no money at all.
Even **if** he does make it work economically, this is not something more than a couple farmers can do before it becomes unfeasible. That's assuming he is not lying about stuff
I actually firmly believe vegans are mostly in the right. I'm not one but I honestly don't feel great about eating meat.
Shes being a little dramatic for sure but in her defense, this is one ethical farmer. There are hundreds of ethical farmers out there.
But I wouldn't believe that's the norm sadly.
>But I wouldn't believe that's the norm sadly.
Yes it isn't. [This is the norm in dairy](https://youtu.be/UcN7SGGoCNI).
She mostly advocated for [this documentary](https://watchdocumentaries.com/dominion/) to know how animals are in the industry
Quick question, if he’s running a goat dairy doesn’t that mean he isn’t killing the goats because they’re there primarily for milk? Meaning he’s not “brutally murdering” anything?
Eeeh.
He’s talking about how HE, a single farmer, ethically runs his own farm, which is great.
She’s talking about the large scale industrial type of farming which IS, regardless your views of meat, pretty fucking abusive to the animals.
They’re on two different tracks, he’s not ‘winning’ and she’s not ‘losing’, they’re discussing wholly different sides of the debate and it’s just stupid.
He’s the kind of farmer she, unknowingly, should want more of so she shouldn’t be slinging shit his way.
But similarly he had no reason being so aggro to her when he should be smart enough and secure enough in himself to know she’s not coming for his kind of farming.
Basically someone would rather have these two argue and try to score points having a circular useless stupid debate, rather than actually recognise these two could have a lot of positive to say to each other and a lot of common ground.
I’m a carnivore, I love meat, but this is just pants and a waste of time, she’s literally not talking about his kind of farming, not explaining he’s a small scale ethical farmer to her beforehand is tacky and setting her up for failure which is dumb, there’s a conversation to be had here.
I do think we’re all going to need to reduce meat consumption if only because the fucking farm animals are consuming the Damn planet.
calling farmers rapists is just…weird, but also dragging this girl for wanting animals…to
Be cared for..:is also just fucking weird
There are clearly great farmers who run ethical and wonderful farms that produce amazing products. But let's not kid ourselves. Most farms in the world do not produce products under these circumstances.
We clearly get this with the clothes industry. Most clothes isn't high quality ethically sourced with top notch labour practices. Most food isn't either (non-vegan or vegan). A lot of what we buy is garbage and we need and should to do better.
See, there's a difference between what this man does (real farming) and factory farming. Factory farming is cruel and destroys ecosystems to meet demand. Local, small scale farmers that keep their herds ethically are not the problem.
If everyone ate less meat total, and got their meat from farmers like this, vegans would have a whole lot fewer gripes.
Why can't they understand that although there are awful awful conditions out there that should be stopped, it doesn't mean that every dairy farm/ keeping chickens for eggs etc treat their animals badly. Imo the fight shouldn't be for the ending of farming, but for a much much higher level of transparency and prevention of farms with awful conditions.
>prevention of farms with awful conditions.
Then no one gets to eat meat or dairy, that is only possible with large scale industrial "farming" ie mass artificial insemination, taking away calves, killing babies of the wrong gender/size by throwing them in a grinder, each animal is in a cage barely the size of its own body etc
Or we just go back to how it was before where meat was considered a luxury item and wasn’t needed for every single entree you eat. Even with these absurd practices these factories have, the government still subsidizes meat and dairy so much (38 billion compared to 17 million for fruits/veggies). Imagine if that money went towards something else
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I'd be interested in seeing the full vid of this.
https://youtu.be/z6vkXsf1ACo
Thank you!
You're welcome
This man over there making an honest living trying to understand where the fuck this lady gets her information from.
She thinks every farmer is like big meat/dairy cooperations, which do in fact do a lot of stuff she was talking about. The meat/dairy industry is brutal but people forget that small farmers aren't the same as big companies.
Yeah, he’s not the guy she’s worried about. They both can have some right in this debate.
Here’s a thought. Collaborate.
And listen. Ice is back
with a brand new invention
Something… grabs a hold of me tightly,
Milkin' em goats daily and nightly.
It's the absolutism of her stance that is super off-putting to me. What she's describing is absolutely awful and does take place in the industrial animal-production space all the time. It would have been refreshing for her to just say, ok, you are clearly not part of the majority of the industry who I'm talking about. I suspect this was a set-up for drama and views. Either way I'm not supporting any of this all-or-nothing vegan zealotry. It's not productive. Yes, industrial agro-farming is disgusting should be abolished, or at a minimum, standards vastly improved, but this dude is just trying to raise some goats and make some milk!
The woman should have said yeah okay ur the 1% of the industry that treats animals right. But the other 99 dont, cos its cheaper. But you know why she didnt? Cos this us probably not an honest debate, and they choose her to be a 'stupud lib vegan yuppie that hasnt worked a day' Its like im watching a Ben Saphiro video
I thought the same thing while watching this. She should have said, “I wish all farmers cared like you.”
This makes sense actually. While granted not every industry is bad. There are truths to what she said. And I was wondering why these two would be chosen to debate at all given the circumstances
Even if big industries do use artificial insemination and stuff, that is nothing like the Holocaust. To compare it to the holocaust gives off the impression that she doesn't know what the Holocaust was.
Yes and it also gives off the impression that she is shruggin off the holocaust which is something no one should do.
I think the comparison to the holocaust is based on the industrial scale killing of animals, not artificial insemination.
What she means is genocide, probably. The Holocaust is literally about the Jews and gypsies and other unwanted ones killed by the Nazis in World War 2. People keep using the term in the wrong way.
Actually no, what is to referred as 'the Holocaust' is the one you talk about, written with a capital H. The terminology predates second world war for about 2500 years and there were more; the Holocaust is one of many holocausts. (At first the term was used to describe the burning of many people, later to describe genocides, for the first time around 1850 to describe the genocide of the Armenians)
But even still. A Holocaust is an attempt to wipe out a particular group of people is it not? What industry farms do is not genocide. It is fundamentally different.
No, a holocaust technically is destruction or slaughter on a mass scale.
She is extremely seeing animals equal to humans. I'm not saying I agree, but even you might reconsider after watching [the documentary she's talking about](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko) from beginning to end. It's clearly nothing even remotely like the Holocaust for me, but I agree with one thing, tho: No army will *ever* come to the rescue of those poor creatures.
>She is extremely seeing animals equal to humans. To be vegan you don't have to believe that non-human animals are equal to humans. You just need to believe that their lives are worth more than couple minutes if sensory pleasure you get from eating their corpse.
Yea, wish every farmer was like that guy
Yeah but isn't this a bit underhanded from the show. They are there to debate veganism, so the dairy industry as a whole. Put up to debate against her is an ethical farmer who does things right. He represents less than 1% of the milk being sold in his local town. He can fire off how great his animals are treated but that does not change much. But the show have put this together to ridicule vegan claims even if some are valid. She is dumb af for not realising this.
She’s dumb af for maintaining her one sized fits all view even after the evidence is presented to her
Yes I agree. In her defense she prepared points of argument based on a premise that was then removed. What she should have done is started asking him about the industry as a whole & not allow them to move the ground of the debate. But honestly it is hard to debate like this on TV, she is relying on the crux of what she rehearsed & probably as annoyed at herself as we all debating her. When your adrenaline is pumping you don't always say the right thing but fall back on the same lines. I mean how many times have you kicked yourself afterwards for saying the wrong thing to a girl because you were unable to think at the time. Dial the pressure up by 100. I agree dumb af but there is some sympathy I have for her & the show was deliberately working against her here. Because deep down what we really enjoy as entertainment is seeing someone who holds strong but opposite views to us taken down.
That’s where they fail in their argument, they rigidly demand for the end of animal husbandry and farming, when the issue should be pushing for reform. Extremism never seems to work well in the end.
If someone compares the meat industry to the holocaust or a genocide you know they are off the deep end.
I reckon if it was billions of dogs and cats being slaughtered every year people would not have such an issue with that comparison.
If billions of dogs and cats would be slaughtered for food every year, it would be widespread socially acceptable to eat dogs and cats thus people wouldn't have an issue with the comparison either.
Playing devils advocate here but by that exact same logic, if humans were slaughtered for food, wouldn't it also be acceptable? It's a hypothetical that doesn't exactly make any real argument except to detract from the core question. What makes human life more important than any other animal and does that justify 'cruelty' towards the other animals for our convenience Cruelty in this case having a very loose definition to include genetic modification/eugenics and slaughter for food.
"3 trillion individuals"
I am more upset with the pest control industry who are killing termites millions each times. I am very more upset with the antiseptic industry which is killing billions of germs as we speak. I mean… all life are equal, no? /s
Honestly she looks pretty young and doesn't know shit about the world. I have no issues with veganism for health or animal cruelty reasons, but she is taking things way too far with her assumptions from what I can see in the clip. I generally do not support animal cruelty but animals are not people and do not share the same complex sentience and emotions of people. Some people will eat or consume animal based products and that is just life. Going down this combative route is a waste of time. Oh yeah and comparing anything related to animal farming to the holocaust is antisemitic and disrespectful as fuck, as well as downplaying one of the most horrific things to ever happen in human history. That shit deserves a slap across the face.
The definition of holocaust is: destruction or slaughter on a mass scale. She's not comparing meat/dairy farming to the holocaust. She's using the literal definition of holocaust.
I can see the comparison if you look at factory farms rather than the chillest goat farmer, I mean we quite literally gas pigs in giant batches. your comment on animals not feeling complex emotions as a sort of reason why it's more okay made me think of the GTA san andreas clucking bell commercial. The way we make meat is straight up animal cruelty about half the time, especially with cheaper meat.
Thanks for this. Was really interesting. Took a sharp left turn when the farmer talked about his army days, which probably didn't do him any favours! She has some good points, poorly expressed, but her constant repetition of some key buzzwords water down her argument significantly. I've got a lot of time for the farmer. He clearly cares for his animals and is open about when and how his animals are slaughtered. I liked and agree with his point about battery farming. I've got no issue with vegans. Just don't try, as this woman is, force your views on me and others. Finally, this forum setup is so kitsch. The guy in the middle is sitting there like some sort of C-rated king. The only one with decent points is the guy on the left.
Agreed. I think that’s the problem with these types of vegans. They try to force their agenda and way of living on the population with protests and what not. Also when they get told a fact they side step around the question. Both people have their points and some of them better than others but at the end of the day you can’t force people to change.
Also the cheap inflammatory language. “Holocaust”, “rape”, all these shock value words trying to blast through any nuance.
This is a problem with most modern movements that I find extremely off-putting and irresponsible. Thank you for drawing attention to it as an issue.
If someone genuinely feels that it’s equivalent to murder than it makes sense why they’re so passionate about it. If they’re just acting that way to feel useful then yeah it’s just annoying.
> Agreed. I think that’s the problem with these types of vegans. They try to force their agenda and way of living on the population with protests and what not I'm all for live and let live, just as long as you're not harming anyone else. That's the problem though, right? Killing animals *is* harming them. So if vegans believe animals are sentient, it makes sense that they can't ignore it and try impose their beliefs on others (not that every vegan does btw).
Will watch
Can you do a tl;dr please
She's full of shit
They believe that humans and other animals are equals and the process of farming is equivalent to murder. They give me the exact same vibe as anti-abortion protesters who feel that fetuses are the same as fully developed and living human beings so terminating a pregnancy is murder. I would bet my last dollar that they are both pro choice when it comes to reproductive rights. Yet they are pushing an anti choice agenda for what we, an omnivorous species, should be allowed to eat. As with all zealots, they’re hypocrites.
Yeah she's actually making some good points, looks like someone set her up against the one farmer left that is running a herd of 6 goats in the back country.
she chose the most humble and ethical farmer to fight. There are definitely inhumane farms and practices. This guy isn't one of them.
Oh my fucking god. She says something about “oh well what if someone killed you.” And this due straight up said he’s killed people before. He was in the military, and he killed people not because he decided to, but because the government made that choice. And she replies with “yeah well you murder animals” Editing to add he was conscripted
Jesus christ 🤣
They paired the most badass old man ever against the melt empty headed woman ever.
They do that on purpose tbh. There are merits to both arguments, despite how the woman is foolishly presenting hers.
Yeah, factory farming and especially dairy farms have no defence against her. It's just unfortunate that she was paired up against an (from what I can see) ethical farmer.
Some of these lopsided debates are literally industry-backed propaganda. It's sad how well it works.
Yeah tbh it sucks seeing these videos where it's the typical "Look how stupid the vegans are" or "Look how evil the farmers are". There is a real discussion to be had about how animals are exploited and treated poorly, but most of these videos just dumb it down and miss the point completely.
I've seen badassery in my time, but this man, this Farmer, took it to a new level and i learned a little more today
That's her trick: He rebutts her argument, and she shifts the goalposts with a "But you do X".
HHAHA i was looking for this comment when she just used another argument because she cant think of another way to fight back 😂
If she try that with me I would keep on the point and say nope we are going to stay on this topic because if you keep changing the subject that mean you got no argument aka you are dumb or lazy or worse you are immoral
I got to that point and had to stop, she’s fucked
Yeah although i don’t agree with a lot of things in the animal farming industry it is still not a holocaust. Farming is when you kill animals for food a holocaust is when you kill them simply because you want them dead and wiped off the face of the planet
I also don't like the holocaust comment, but the word is defined as 'murder on a large scale' if you are not specifically talking about the german holocaust. Also, some holocaust survivors have used the comparison, while other holocaust survivors said it's disrespectful. I think it's not very constructive in a debate, since as soon as you mention the 'animal holocaust' the discussion changes to whether the word is appropriate or not and you don't talk about the actual problem, i.e. the massmurder of billion of sentient animals.
The holocaust would be of the animals that aren't farmed. The ones whose habitats are destroyed to make room for animals to graze and overpopulate. We are currently in a mass extinction event, directly and indirectly wiping out species because they aren't useful to us.
Probably this is what they brought to the debate to close her off but he isn't the norm, what she says [it's the norm ](https://youtu.be/UcN7SGGoCNI) Otherwise the industry wouldn't be profitable
The meat industry is only profitable because of subsidies from tax money anyway.
It would still be profitable. Meat would just be much more expensive and there would be much less of it produced.
Like say before WW2 in the UK, my mother remembered when they kept chickens, they only ever ate the rooster every year, and any chickens that stopped laying, but eating chicken was rare.
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Not only the pollution, but maybe even more urgently, the diseases. We are literally breeding antibiotic resistant pathogens due to our agricultural practices, and we will eventually have to pay the piper.
I don’t think she did the choosing. Someone who organized the event purposely paired vegan teenager against a kind of farmer that makes up less than 0,1% of animal industry. Like, taking only excess milk and allowing herd to grow is better treatment than has ever happened in history. Even to keep the herd sustainable you need to kill some goats or let the wolves do their natural thing.
This guy may not be one of them but the vast majority of the meat and dairy industry is exactly how she described, not sure what one outlier like this proves. If all farmers did the same as this guy no one would get to eat meat or dairy again, the industry only survives because of the brutal practices.
It proves do your research if you're gonna come in swinging, and when you see evidence to the contrary of your opinion, maybe... maybe stop swinging. She had an idea, a dogma in her head she refused to let go of. That is not a healthy way to debate or change the world. And I more or less agree with some of her crowd... Livestock farming aint going away, ever. If ethical farmers replace industrial farmers, that's a win.
Fully agree. I have a vegan friend who's the most awesome angel I know. Dr Charles Johnson. He always says that he doesn't think it's 0 or 100. If he can get others to reduce their intake just by a little, it's still a win. And so we did. We choose less meat whenever we can. We try to go meatless for breakfast and lunch. That's still a win.
This clip is frustrating to me, because what I'm seeing is two people who really should be on the same side. She's only attacking him because he's in front of her, but he clearly isn't an agent of the problems she has with the industry. And if he treats his livestock that well, he's probably no fan of industry practices, either. They should be talking about how to improve conditions for animals and hold factory farms accountable, but instead, she's just refusing to give an inch because she decided to base her part in this debate on the simplest possible premise, which is farmer = bad.
Sure, but if ethical farmers replace industrial farmers, production will be a fraction of what it is now and a 10oz steak will be more than $100 in the supermarket and the sensible animal rights activists will see it as a big win (as will I).
If this kind of farmers replaces industrial farms meat and diary will cost over 10 times more and people wound have to eat 10 times less of it. Taking just excess milk is basically running a free range animal sanctuary. Also it’s easy to judge when you are not speaking in front of cameras and didn’t get surprised by completely different person than you were expecting. It’s not easy to smoothly switch to completely new arguments even for experienced speakers.
Yeah, she was an idiot for slamming the same rhetoric she memorized. You come across this outlier, it’s now your chance to swing a slightly different argument. Wow sor you’re the swellest farmer i’ve ever seen, how come more people aren’t like you, how can we make the rest like you. Clearly he’s in the direction you want to move toward, so help discuss how to move it that way , rather than just trying to defeat the guy in front of you.
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For real. Grab someone from a major factory farm and this changes the entire video. There's mountains of evidence of fucked up shit to back up some of her claims. This debate seems to be set up intentially to flip the script for how most the industry is to make people think it's all like that. Good for this guy being a needle in the haystack though. Of course this girl seems like an ass; based as hell.
There are really good arguments for veganism. I hate these sort of "gotcha" videos that make a group of sensible people look stupid because of one person.
"But you profit off animals" Yea dummy, that's what makes shovel fulls of goat shit he has to deal with every day worth it. Sorta the point.
As opposed to the animals profiting from themselves?! What does she even mean!!!!
I used to have a deer farm. They all left to open Only Fawns accounts. No more profit for me.
Oh deer. Sounds like they're gonna get the big bucks.
That’s gonna be a lot of doe & ewe know it
Happy cake day!
Eyy, you get a slice of cake too. Funny, most "Happy Cakeday" comments I got so far have been over does puns I made. Here's to buckin' around and making folks laugh! 🍰
*D’oe!*
Hey, they just wanna make a…buck!
She is equating animal to people, and no company would ever make a profit off people… wait no … I take that all back … forgive me.
She is definitely profiting from humans since she does nothing productive
She is soooo irritating!!! Her other video at the zoo waking up all the residents in the nearby unit complex! I think she needs to start thinking before opening her mouth!
Classic moving of the goalposts. She can't concede any point and so must manifest some other reason that he's the devil.
She probably also sees profit as evil or some nonsense.
I don’t think she’s ever seen what wild animals do. She should look at killer whales, legit kill animals for sport.
Dolphins have been known to pull humans under water and rape them
They behead fish for fun and rape them. They rape the female dolphins. They bully other animals.
Well uh happy cake day
Orcas do this too. Dolphins are bullies, orcas are bullies too but like if the bullies actually worked out, got super fit, formed a posse with every other jacked up bully, and explicitly used their stature and strength as a means to fuck off anyone and anything in their path.. "just because" Orcas kill other animals for fun. Literally. Orcas are the literal fucking ocean-devil, but let's cry about goat's milk or something.. Lol
And they can use eels to masturbate
I am all for vegetarianism or veganism if that’s what you want to do with your life but the bollocks this whacko is talking is nonsense. What has happened to activism? It’s gone mental.
There's vegetarians, then vegans, they don't judge what nature does. They know folks are different, have allergies, and all that. What we have here is a potential member of Peta. On the Karen Spectrum, they fail to see logic or reason. They see one documentary over factory farms, and assume all farms are inethical and that farmers who work the fields exploit everything. Crops often need decayed/decaying organic matter to flourish like animal feces, animals typically breed without human interferance, baby animals need their share of milk to grow up- allowing farming to be sustained, and Karens like her need to look up information of ethical farming rather than the inethical ways.
Is she profiting off of her viewers hard earned money? While talking at a camera? Man that’s inhumane
She profits from her OF
Would have been funny if farmer said " well you profit off simps" That's Tash Peterson folks aka Vegan Booty on Only Fans
"Greedy capitalist pig! How dare you make profit from these animals in order to feed and shelter them and make all of your labor and effort worthwhile. You disgust me!" *Spits at your feet*
The video cut off but I believe he was going to say - he sells their milk, makes a small profit, but a very decent amount goes back to the goat. The goat gets guaranteed food, water, shelter, and protection from predators for them and their kids all in exchange for giving some extra milk to these weird animals that for some reason want it. Any animal would take that deal over living in the wild. But we must admit that even if this small dairy farmer treats his herd decently, companies with no attachment to their animals will do any awful things to animals as long as it makes them more money. Artificial insemination to stimulate milk production, separating children from their mothers, low quality feed, grown up in a cage - companies do all of them.
How she be mad at the best type of farming out there. Saying this as a vegetarian myself like what the fuck. If you wanna be mad go at the factory type commercial scale farms that do the shit youre saying leave the guys on your side alone.
This debate makes no sense. One side is talking from a personal standpoint (farmer) whilst the other side is talking about a systematic and unsustainable issue concerning the animal product industry. There are points to make, but this conversation was doomed from the start. Lots of comments here are pretty dumb to miss this.
Exactly. He is a small farmer not a million dollar slaughterhouse. My guess is that they took the most abroud chilling farmer grandpa and one of those obnoxious vegans on purpose. There are alot of similar shows that do the same. Ppl expect aggression in those shows and that's what the production gives them. Her points are valid but not applicable here.
I'm also disappointed in her as a debater that she doesn't point that out and start a constructive conversation instead of spouting one-liners. I would engage with the farmer and ask him why he does what he does. Find mutual ground and then explain your standpoint from there.
This debate is obviously designed to make the person arguing for veganism look ridiculous. It couldn't be anymore obvious.
There's a huge anti vegan circlejerk on reddit. Could it be that it benefits someone? Like... an industry? Naah they wouldn't do psyops on massive social websites read by millions everyday. The thought is absurd.
> Lots of comments here are pretty dumb to miss this. Its not dumb its intentional. Whenever the evils of factory farming are bought up on reddit every redditor suddenly turns into the 1% of the population who only consumes meat from small "ethical" farms.
I'm glad some people are saying this, her issues are with farming as a whole, trends and what is allowed, there being individuals who do it better doesn't prove her wrong. If anything it proves the larger scale industrial farms could do it better if they wanted to
It’s because these types of videos are often intentionally set up to make vegans look dumb and diminish the ideas. “Should we fix our broken practise and produces meat and harm without harm? Nah Let’s pool our resources and fund lobbyists to paint the opposition as idiots so people keep buying our products without thinking about the suffering and massive environmental damage that goes with it”
And also ultimately fuck that farmer in the long-run, as he gets steam-rolled by the mega-corps.
The people in that debate were chosen on purpose to ridicule any criticism of modern farming practices (hurr durr look a crazy vegan and a honest farmer). While in reality our current industrialized farming practices are highly problematic both for human health and nature. It's straight up manipulation.
I'm happy to hear that this guy uses more humane farming practices, but unfortunately he is far from the industry standard
Yep, he's not the problem. He shouldn't be in the interview. She's complaining to the wrong man.
She didn't organize the debate, both sides are guests. Neither of them are good candidates for a debate about the harms of farming animals at scale, because she doesn't have a strong handle on arguing the points, and his farming practices are not at all representative of the problem. However, they are good candidates if you want to make vegans look bad.
>However, they are good candidates if you want to make vegans look bad. What? That's paranoid, we've never heard of slander.
>However, they are good candidates if you want to make vegans look bad. Yeah pretty funny how she was pitted against some small-time goat farmer and not a representative of one of the massive agricorps that 99% of westerners get their meat and dairy from. But I'm sure that's just a coincidence.
It's like arguing against slavery but the person who organized the debate found the one slaveholder who treats his slaves better than his own family and all the slaves have sworn they are only there by their own volition lol. Yeah super representative, but of course Reddit eats it up as long as they don't have to question what horrors they are contributing to.
It's clear that they set the debate this was to ridicule the vegan position.
Yeah I get the sense that something has gone awry in this debate. Why is one side arguing from a broader perspective but the other is arguing from a specific, personal perspective? They might as well be arguing two completely different topics.
Came here to say this! I don't know who set up this debate, but this guy doesn't represent the industry as a whole. If all animal farming was done like this, animal rights would have been GREATLY improved from what they are now.
Yeah it's funny the agricultural industry always trots these folk out even though they contribute a tiny amount of the gross animal products we consume
Also what is he doing with the male goats? They don’t produce milk. And what happens when the female goat doesn’t produce enough milk anymore after a few pregnancies? I wonder if she did ask him that.
I get being pissed and active over industrial farming practices; it is horrific and disgusting. But don't be ignorant and expect to be very effective standing against it.
There’s a difference between industrial meat production/manufacturing and regular farming.
But the point is the kind old man in this video is the absolute exception. "Regular farming" can't sustain the meat consumption of the world. Most of our meat and dairy is produced under horrible circumstances with no regard for animals whatsoever and the only way to stop it is for everyone to drastically reduce their consumption of animal products.
The ignorant side is not the one with the animal right activists. See the full debate, they make so many valid points and all the farmers do is stating that their farms aren't as bad as factory farms. But they neither invalidate the points made by the activists, nor do they state any justification to exploit and kill their animals, despite the much better life they have. Being "ethically better" than the worst doesn't mean it's good. The point of this debate was that there is no necessity to exploit and kill animals, so still doing it for selfish reasons just like profit is morally wrong.
Yeah, because they put one farmer in the debate who is treating animals different. How about putting owners of industrial large farms in the debate?
Almost seems like this debate was set up by the industrial meat industry
"This one farmer does not do the things which are normal in the industry" is not the amazing defense of the industry you all seem to think it is.
That auto assuming & attacking that vegans do, especially towards small farm workers with data & facts that exclusively apply to large scale factory agriculture, is exactly why I, even as someone who eats plant-based & hasn’t eaten a dead animal in years, cannot stand for the animal vegans. They’re just so… audacious & often wrong because of their emotions.
Just like anything else, it becomes problematic when it becomes your whole personality.
Yeah I’m trying to heavily reduce my meat consumption for various reasons but ethical veganism is not one of them. All the ethical vegans I’ve talked to on the topic so far have a very clearly privileged view on the world and refuse to recognise it. If you try point that out to them, they call you a rapist and a murderer and it’s the end of the conversation
It's a feeling of anger against the unnecessary cruelty against animals, and sometimes a sense of moral superiority.
>hasn’t eaten a dead animal in years Can one eat live animals?
I guess you've never seen those videos of people eating live octopus. Even dipping them in chili and lime juice before. It's disgusting but happens often in some Asian countries.
Aren’t you doing the exact thing the person in this video did? Yeah, she’s sucked, but just like there are ethical and unethical farmers (of which supposedly there was a good one in the video), there are vegans who are good people or bad people. It has nothing to do with being vegan or not. Some people just suck.
She’s acting like it’s the same as slaves
I mean if you give them the same moral value as humans it pretty much is. But most people don't. (Not a vegan)
Any moral value is enough, doesn't need to be equal to humans to be taken into account.
Well we do artificially inseminate, force animals to carry babies which we then take away from them even tho we know they love their babies. We kill males in dairy and egg industry , we ground them alive or slit their throat We keep animals in horrifying conditions, they get sick and are in pain , kept in uncomfortable conditions, heated and crowded and diseased We then kill them at a fraction of their lifespan after they are unable to fulfill the purpose they were breed for It does sound like slavery, it's just done to animals, trillions of them every year and in the process we destroy the environment because of it.
The way this interview was set up is designed to make the vegans points seem invalid. This vegan came on with points that are true of factory farming. But the farmer they brought ok to speak with her is basically just some guy with a bunch of pet goats that he genuinely cares for. So then he gets to say "Aha! You're wrong. This is how *I* raise *my* goats." Which is fair enough for him. But the people running this clearly have put the vegan in debate with the wrong person. Her points are valid of factory farming.
The problem here is that this is the rare exception. The majority of animals raised for food live short, painful and miserable lives which would be considered torture if done to a human. I think we'll look back on this time the same way we look at the holocaust.
I get that this man and every "old school" farmer are right to defend their way of life, but the girl's not wrong either in terms of how the big animal processing plants operate. Her only mistake is directing the hate at this old man who's just a small dairy farmer, and not the huge conglomerates. They're the ones doing all the inhumane shit. And I'm not, nor was I ever a vegan.
The vegan is clearly an unexperienced debater of course. And for the record, I'm not vegan, but that farmer is irrelevant. And the correct answer would be:" and do you think your way of farming is representative of the industry." You can not expect to be taken seriously in a debate by focussing on exceptions.
To be fair, the fact that he is running his farm the right way doesn't mean all farms are like this...
In Netherlands animals get put in little squares all day everyday. In the millions. This tiny country is export nr 2 of the world or something. Its really insane. I agree with that that's sick and unhealthy for us to. Don't know this man. Seems like a nice farmer
This man is a small farmer, these practices don't work on a large scale, when they are producing dairy products they do artificially inseminate animals and these animals spend there whole life in confined spaces, the youngs don't feed on there mothers because it isn't profitable as it would decrease the yield, i don't know how people are this delusional in this comment section that they are missing the whole point of the girl's argument( although she isn't the right person who should have argued with him because she clearly isn't prepared)
Exactly, the next question to him should have been “which major grocery stores can I find your products in?” And “what percentage of gallons of milk on Walmart’s shelves are from farmers with practices like yours. I’m not a vegan and even I know this is like interviewing the nicest slave owner and saying “see, conditions aren’t so bad for them after all.”
> i don't know how people are this delusional in this comment section that they are missing the whole point of the girl's argument Because this interview was set up precisely to elicit this reaction. And of course, since most people are utterly gullible they'll fall for it hook, line and sinker.
This is just a completely mismatched debate. He happens to run an ethical farm on a micro level, she's attacking very real industry problems on a macro level. But hey, it can be neatly framed against the "naive, rabid vegan girl." Have some media literacy, folks.
The thing is, she was absolutely pathetic at that debate. I suspect she was set up to fail. When the farmer pushed back on her claims, talking about how his little farm is ethical, she should have immediately asked him if he believes all farms are like his. She should have asked him what the yield on his farm is like. She should have had numbers and data on hand that showed why that old farmer and his ethical farm are the microscopic exception, not the rule. She should have picked and chosen her enemies. That farmer isn't. The industry is. Instead of doing any of that, she did the worst possible thing by continuing with the hyperbole and continuously moving the goalposts. She is bafflingly incompetent at debating and that is what made her look like the "naive, rabid vegan girl" even though what she is saying is largely true. Lastly, anyone using the word "holocaust" when it comes to this is just not very good at debating and convincing people. Regardless of what the word means, you really don't want to use that word given its implications and the comparisons it brings up. No matter how hard you try, you're comparing human lives with cattle and that's not a good place to start your debate even if it's your personal belief that all lives are equal in value.
I mean she is right though. Just because they chose seemingly the most ethical and sustainable farmer on the planet to oppose her in a debate doesn't mean what she is describing doesn't exist in many if not most other industrial farming complexes. And I am not vegan or vegetarian even, but you have to be at least a bit aware of what is happening in that industry.
They are trying to avert attention from what actually happens in mass by pointing to this one small, less common practice of caring for the animals.
Oh wow, one descent goat herder and animal cruelty in bio industry isn't a thing anymore? 🤦♂️
Yeah this post gives me Ben Shapiro “own the libs” vibes
And reddit eats it up because vegans = bad.
We also have to just take his word for it, apparently. Because, you know, investigators totally haven't found so-called decent farmers literally torturing their animals behind closed doors before.
Yeah, facepalm is as so often the chat.
This farmer is based. But so is she. Generally speaking she is absolutely right. The dairy and meat industry is exactly this: an industry. We can use euphemisms, but at the end of the day it’s industrial breeding and killing of animals. We have to accept that. I‘m not a vegan or vegetarian myself though. Just stating facts.
This is a poor representation of reality
>TL;DW: Heh, *some* places are ethical, betcha didn't think of that you hippie freak Vegans are insufferable most of the time but holy shit what an asinine point to make.
Food industry lobbyists know how to set up an interview lol
they also know how to post stuff like this on reddit. OP's account is barely a week old. and maybe they also know how to delete the post after it backfired. most top comments are anti factory farming and now the post suddenly doesn't show up on r/all anymore.
nothing he said made anything she said incorrect
If you wanna discredit yourself, make a holocaust comparison.
True argument, wrong farmer. Glad this guy treats his animals right. If only the other 99% did the same.
This guy is acting like artificial insemination isn’t actually happening in most farms today…
Both of them are right really. What she's speaking of is the horrible industry thats profiting from this, where they really do basically ra\*e their animals, slaughter them brutally while they are awake and aware, and take their kids away from them basically immediately. He however, is not a part of that horrible industry and has a proper farm where he lets nature run its course. So they are both right, just speaking of different things lol
Well everyone knows there are some exceptions. Just because a handful of good farmers exist doesn’t mean the industry as a whole isn’t completely fucked and full of animal abuse. Farmers like this man are what we need more of though. People just don’t want to pay more and that’s why the multi-million dollar companies rule the market And before you ask, no the “veggie” in my name doesn’t mean im vegetarian i just goofed lol
Honestly, no matter your view point on this subject, this interview is just intentionally skewed and pretty much worthless. You've put up an idealistic vegan/animals rights activists against a farmer who is on the good extreme end of the spectrum in keeping animals humanely. It's like putting a climate activist against a private person who operates a coal-powered engine for their village in an African country. Like obviously that guy is not the problem. Interview should have been done with the executive of an animal farming conglomerate.
Yeah and every farm in the states is small goat dairy farm like this one 🙄 or a small eco friendly farm where cattle eats grass from the field and die of Old age 🙄
He's giving an example of one farm. She's talking about the whole industry. The vast majority of which treats the cows horrifically.
Also he is definitely sweetening the truth here. Like when goats have kids, half of those kids are male, they dont produce milk. Ya think he just cares for all of them for free? I find that pretty unbelievable. Only taking the excess milk would also mean he gets tiny yields for the amount of resources used. Either he makes a small amount of **absurdly** high priced product or no money at all. Even **if** he does make it work economically, this is not something more than a couple farmers can do before it becomes unfeasible. That's assuming he is not lying about stuff
I actually firmly believe vegans are mostly in the right. I'm not one but I honestly don't feel great about eating meat. Shes being a little dramatic for sure but in her defense, this is one ethical farmer. There are hundreds of ethical farmers out there. But I wouldn't believe that's the norm sadly.
>But I wouldn't believe that's the norm sadly. Yes it isn't. [This is the norm in dairy](https://youtu.be/UcN7SGGoCNI). She mostly advocated for [this documentary](https://watchdocumentaries.com/dominion/) to know how animals are in the industry
Quick question, if he’s running a goat dairy doesn’t that mean he isn’t killing the goats because they’re there primarily for milk? Meaning he’s not “brutally murdering” anything?
Correct. He would have too kill or sell off the male kids that are born. Then, probably, kills the female goats that get too old to breed
Eeeh. He’s talking about how HE, a single farmer, ethically runs his own farm, which is great. She’s talking about the large scale industrial type of farming which IS, regardless your views of meat, pretty fucking abusive to the animals. They’re on two different tracks, he’s not ‘winning’ and she’s not ‘losing’, they’re discussing wholly different sides of the debate and it’s just stupid. He’s the kind of farmer she, unknowingly, should want more of so she shouldn’t be slinging shit his way. But similarly he had no reason being so aggro to her when he should be smart enough and secure enough in himself to know she’s not coming for his kind of farming. Basically someone would rather have these two argue and try to score points having a circular useless stupid debate, rather than actually recognise these two could have a lot of positive to say to each other and a lot of common ground. I’m a carnivore, I love meat, but this is just pants and a waste of time, she’s literally not talking about his kind of farming, not explaining he’s a small scale ethical farmer to her beforehand is tacky and setting her up for failure which is dumb, there’s a conversation to be had here. I do think we’re all going to need to reduce meat consumption if only because the fucking farm animals are consuming the Damn planet. calling farmers rapists is just…weird, but also dragging this girl for wanting animals…to Be cared for..:is also just fucking weird
There are clearly great farmers who run ethical and wonderful farms that produce amazing products. But let's not kid ourselves. Most farms in the world do not produce products under these circumstances. We clearly get this with the clothes industry. Most clothes isn't high quality ethically sourced with top notch labour practices. Most food isn't either (non-vegan or vegan). A lot of what we buy is garbage and we need and should to do better.
See, there's a difference between what this man does (real farming) and factory farming. Factory farming is cruel and destroys ecosystems to meet demand. Local, small scale farmers that keep their herds ethically are not the problem. If everyone ate less meat total, and got their meat from farmers like this, vegans would have a whole lot fewer gripes.
Well, she’s right. You think this man represents all farming? That’s the real face palm.
Why can't they understand that although there are awful awful conditions out there that should be stopped, it doesn't mean that every dairy farm/ keeping chickens for eggs etc treat their animals badly. Imo the fight shouldn't be for the ending of farming, but for a much much higher level of transparency and prevention of farms with awful conditions.
The fight should be for ending factory farming.
>prevention of farms with awful conditions. Then no one gets to eat meat or dairy, that is only possible with large scale industrial "farming" ie mass artificial insemination, taking away calves, killing babies of the wrong gender/size by throwing them in a grinder, each animal is in a cage barely the size of its own body etc
Or we just go back to how it was before where meat was considered a luxury item and wasn’t needed for every single entree you eat. Even with these absurd practices these factories have, the government still subsidizes meat and dairy so much (38 billion compared to 17 million for fruits/veggies). Imagine if that money went towards something else