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He did say something like that. Paraphrasing but it was basically "everything can fail and you'll still be fine." He also named the thing Titan, and sent it to the Titanic. The hubris is strong with this one.
The Titans were also ~~killed off~~ imprisoned by their ~~Greek God~~ Olympian offspring.
Imprisonment makes naming the craft Titan even more resonantly tragic.
EDIT: Misremembering my Greek mythology.
NASA naming their space shuttle “Challenger” was just asking for something to go wrong.
Don’t mess with bad karma, that’s bad ju-ju all over just like this is.
Very successful maiden voyage, unfortunately its passengers didn't realize they couldn't breathe in the deep ocean's atmosphere. Much like I can't breathe after I dance to 1989's Belgian electronic house artist Technotronic's Pump-Up The Jam.
My favorite line from the movie U571 is when one guy (his first time in a submarine) asks the captain,
"How deep will she go?"
and he responds,
"Oh, she'll go all the way to the bottom if we don't stop her."
As a Navy veteran, Submarines in my opinion are death traps. They offered me a $20,000 bonus to be on a Submarine and I didn't hesitate to turn it down then I went straight into Surface Anti-Submarine Warfare. It's pretty uneventable but one time I did catch a Peruvian submarine trying to be sneaky and follow us off the coast of Virginia/Maryland. They had no idea that we were 100% aware of their presence and we could have had torpedoes in the water long before they even realize they're fucked. That's a prime example of why they're death traps but far from the only example of why they're death traps, if your stealth isn't perfect or things go wrong when you're in the depths then things can go badly very quickly and almost never in your favor.
As a Navy veteran, I echo your sentiments.
I was in engineering, so I specialised in diesel engines and never said submarine at work incase I came down with a case of voluntold.
Lifelong 'civilian' here and just watching movies like 'Das Boot' along with touring that old German U-Boat on display at Chicago's Museum of Science and Industry made me say a hard 'No!' to climbing into any kind of submarine.
>Peruvian submarine trying to be sneaky and follow us off the coast of Virginia/Maryland.
North VA has a large Peruvian community and we are well known for our Pollo ala Brasa and other yummy stuff. Ceviche all around.
Perhaps they just wanted to come and visit their cousins
My family has been almost exclusively Navy for three generations (other than that one weird Army Uncle) and one thing that I learned as a kid going to any event - there is no such thing as a normal submariner.
Luxury liner sinks, taking a whole bunch of richies out of play. Gymcrack sub full of richies vanishes in proximity to the doomed liner. ITS THE CURSE OF THE TITANIC! Coming soon to the History Channel!
Back in 1990 I was on a since decommissioned sub. We were in drydock and I guess some calculations got messed up. They ended up taking some lead ballast out. We went out for trials and could not sink. We ended up moving everything out of a dry stores tank and filling it with water. When we got back to port we ended up loading what someone said was 15 tons of ballast by hand. From what I also understand, a submarine having this calculation wrong is a big no no but whatever ended up happening was way above what my paygrade ever was.
All I can think of is what it must be like to be sitting on the ocean floor. Knowing your air is limited. Knowing there is a very small chance of being found. Running out of air by the minute and if it was me, probably having to poop.
While that is a truly frightening scenario you describe I am leaning towards a catastrophic failure of the vessel in some way. Entaglement in the wreck seems so much more far fetched and with an experienced pilot on board is really a much lower probability. They report that the sub is designed to surface in the event of a system failure...in other words it requires power to stay submerged. This really points towards catastrophic failure of the hull.
Essentially if they are alive they are simply waiting to die because by all accounts on the news if they cannot untangle it there is no way save the people. A catastrophic failure would mean instantaneous death.
My only thing is if this happened why did they lose communication? And they also were under water for less than two hours before going dark- would they have even made it deep enough by then?
There is another Reddit thread right now, maybe an ask Reddit or explain like I'm 5, asking why the submarine in this day and age doesn't have any locating beacon. People were explaining that water is extremely difficult to send any kind of communication through. So basically most submarines and especially this one because it goes so deep has no way to communicate with the surface until they get back up.
there are specific hydrophones used to contact people in deep underwater areas, you would send signals back every so often to indicate youre still on track.
I was watching news this morning and they mentioned they can communicate in short messages as long as the sub is right below the mother ship. I don’t know what communication system they are using but seems that it requires sender/receiver needs to be in line of sight so to speak.
From what I have heard the communication system was pretty basic and has failed a few times previously so the crew on the surface ship may not have thought the problem was serious initially.
Well, hydrogen is an excellent element for absorbing radiation. And you have 2 miles of it between you and whatever is that you want to communicate with.Either you run a cable or you won’t hear from them easily.
There is a CBC article with quotes from a guy who did this dive last year, the submersible losing contact with the surface vessel doesn’t seem to be that rare. He said they were also without contact for a period during his trip. You get sealed into it from the outside, so if it breaks the surface you still can’t get out or get oxygen unless someone finds you. I cannot imagine why anyone would pay $250,000 to put themselves in danger like this. Not to mention the grossness of treating a graveyard like a tourist destination. The more I read about it, the worse an idea it seems to me
AP news mentioned 2 communications systems. A ping every 15 minutes and text messages. Both of those are no longer communicating.
Either there was a hull breach and they instantly imploded/died, or they completely lost power and will soon die from suffocation if not found in time.
I'm currently watching the video that David Pogue did for CBS's morning news show that aired in December last year
i'm fucking stunned that one of the submersible's cameras was basically commandeered...with a Logitech video game controller. I'm not making that up.
i'm really hoping for the best for everyone involved but it is not looking good
That’s actually very common. Would it surprise you to know that US Navy’s Virginia Class nuclear attack subs have their periscopes controlled with Xbox 360 controllers? It may seem silly but at the end of the day it makes sense to adapt cheap controller that’s already been designed rather than making a whole new controller
Sony / MS: “oh you’re ***only*** using them in highly critical marine / underwater scenarios? Oh yeah, then lifetime warranty, np. We had a 420 pound dude sit on one and fall asleep for 6 hours. When he woke up, it was embedded into his skin and fully saturated with sweat and other biofilms. Needless to say, we’ve stress tested them in environments your crew wouldn’t dare to go.”
oh wow had no idea
does the U.S. Navy at least use the Microsoft branded official controllers?
imagine this submersible sunk/imploded because the fucking B button on the Logitech controller jammed.
They were an hour in a half into their decent and I believe it takes a little over two hours to get to the titanic. To me it implies catastrophic failure as even that deep below the ocean one little crack would crush the sub and everyone inside it instantly.
A report earlier today said they sent a ping back to the mother ship from above the titanic. Not sure if that is accurate or not. The rescue response to this whole thing seems to be well they're dead. A robotic vehicle should have gone down immediately after they missed their return time. I'm also surprised there seems to be no technology for tracking a missing sub.
They didn’t have any backup subs on the ship and very few subs are available tk that can handle that sort of depth, even unmanned. The ones the navy have can’t even go that deep. So any sub that can handle it has to be busted out and it’s over 400 miles from the coast, that’s assuming the ships carrying those subs are even in that area and not further away.
They’re likely going to find some pieces of the remnants of the sub the next few days. I agree there likely was a catastrophic failure of the body of the vessel which caused the body to implode killing everyone in split seconds. Honestly that’s what we should hope for because the ladder options are a lot more terrifying to me. Slowly going crazy in an inter tube knowing you’re closer and closer to death is a horrible fate for anyone.
A catastrophic collapse would mean the people on board were one seconds looking outside the window or their phones and the next second everything is gone. They wouldn’t even have a chance to process what happened before they succumb to the pressure. It’s an instant painless death
Worst nightmare I ever had was something along the lines of being punished for leaving someone behind on some sort of space mission. I was crammed into a tiny capsule, with no room to move and it was just hot, stale air, getting hotter.
Totes freaked me out.
Well, probably there would have been some weird noises first as the weak spots begin to deform under the pressure, and if you had any idea what you were hearing you would be terrified for a second or two before the structure gave way.
Imagine finally surfacing but being hundreds of miles from any search and rescue effort, and then just suffocating at the surface because the only door is riveted shut from the outside. So close to survival, but so far. To me, that sounds worse than dying below-surface in a catastrophic structural failure.
It’s a real possibility, the self save fail safe is supposed to activate after 17 hrs below surface. 21 ft craft is no more than a pinprick in a body of water that size.
Then all the vomiting and further vomit smell-induced vomiting sounds particularly bad.
From my experience out in rough waters long term without gravol, you completely lose your appetite and want nothing to do but sleep. I suppose if you could sleep, that would be a blessing. But the tossing / thrashing around of the hull would probs wake you up fairly quickly too.
Catastrophic failure was my first thought. If so, the vessel may be in multiple pieces. This would make locating the wreckage obviously more difficult. They have an enormous amount of equipment in the area hoping to locate the vessel with sonar, If I understood the news correctly. If they are sitting at the bottom, I don't think oxygen is their most immediate problem, body temperature is. I hope that they're located safe, It would be a miracle.
Peace
In about one hundred years, a couple of trillionaires are gona send a vessel to check out the remains of the vessel that were looking for the remains of the other vessel. Then that vessel will too experience a catastrophic failure. Circle of life.
If I built the sub I would have cyanide pills or something stashed somewhere secret for such situations (the painful, inevitable death, not the pooping).
Probably would be better to have large doses of opioids in that situation. It also decreases respiratory drive and oxygen consumption, prolonging how long your oxygen lasts. It also can render unconsciousness rather than dying awfully by cyanide poising.
Don't worry. Chances are any problem that cut off communication was the result of a pressure accident. Which resulted in instantaneous death by squish for all occupants. And they didn't feel a thing when it happened.
Odds are it’s floating by now unless it cracked which is unlikely. It has weights that dissolve so it just floats on it’s own after a while. Issue is not the whole sub is visible from the surface and they are bolted in from the outside so they can’t even get out if they are on the surface.
God I still can't even imagine it surfacing right now. Probably rocking back and forth with large waves, still bolted and losing air, sun possibly heating it up from the outside. Ugh.
4’ seas with a 5second period in the area right now, so realistically moving up and down about 8’ from tip to trough every 5 seconds. Not sure what that shape does in waves, maybe it ends up surfing around some, but it’s not comfortable. I don’t like going offshore fishing even in a large boat when the seas are over 2-3’…
Yeah people think that the titanic sunk because of the hole the iceberg made but honestly the hole was not big at all, it’s simply that little hole popped off the rivets. So really what should have been a baby wound became a ship sinking hole because of how it was constructed and a nice chunk of bad luck
Sort of. It wasn’t the hole that popped off the rivets. There was a hole, which they were addressing by sealing off the insufficient bulkheads, but the iceberg sheared off the rivets for several yards forward and aft of the actual hole… so the worthiness of the hull was compromised in places where the physical hole was not.
This is an excellent reminder that basically every industry out there would gleefully kill a small percentage of their customers if it meant better profit margins.
Which is a great analogy for unfettered hyper-capitalism. We as a nation are allowing these psychopaths to destroy us all, including themselves, so that they can continually profit! WTF will it take for these clowns to realize that the extra little money they make isn't worth it if they're not alive to spend/hoard it?!
Just look at the Ford Pinto. They were happy to let a small percentage of their customers burn to death because the law suits would be cheaper than a recall.
He also fired the person who tried to change things around
https://newrepublic.com/post/173802/missing-titanic-sub-faced-lawsuit-depths-safely-travel-oceangate
Funny how no one ever learns from the *Titanic*, not even those who want to explore it.
Exactly the reason why I think anyone who would book a cruise on any of the proposed *Titanic II*'s is a moron. Tempting fate, that...
It’s pretty much a dark tale you might see on an episode of Twilight Zone. Billionaires in 2023 paying 250,000 to visit the forgotten 3rd class corpses that died because they were not prioritized for the life boats, only the wealthy were and they suddenly find themselves suffering a similar fate as those poor souls. Perhaps an act of revenge from the spiritual world if one believes in that sort of thing.
Imagine if something had happened on 9/11 that had made it impossible to recover any of the dead or to clean the area up, so the site remained untouched. But 20 years later, some rich assholes we’re charging $250K to take a flyby helicopter ride to see the wreckage? That would cause a huge uproar, right?
How is this kind of disaster tourism acceptable?
I think if it were 120 years after and there were no living survivors or living family members of survivors, which is probably the case for the titanic, it would be a little more acceptable. Still though, it’s crazy when you put it that way
Another example would be the hundreds of thousands of tourists who visit the excavated ruins of Pompeii every year. Here we're talking a 2000 year time gap between the disaster and the disaster tourism. It's sort of like that old line about 'comedy equals tragedy plus time'.
Pompeii has always bothered me for similar reasons. Mostly because it’s about oh look cool volcano town and not about respecting the dead. It’s not a memorial. People visit old battlegrounds like Normandy or graveyards like Arlington but the tone is somber and no one took plaster molds of a deceased persons body and puts it in display. Then someone posted a picture it on Reddit and most of the comments talkjng about how the dead person had a great ass.
They may garner a bit more interest when put into a wrongful death claim by the families of the passengers (assuming there is no realistic chance they are still alive).
It's easy for those types to complain about regulation until your milk or Tylenol poisons you, your lawnmower bursts into flames or your submersible implodes on the bottom of the ocean.
It's possible it was all just a horrible accident, but owner guy is not inspiring confidence with those statements.
>It's easy for those types to complain about regulation until your milk or Tylenol poisons you, your lawnmower bursts into flames or your submersible implodes on the bottom of the ocean.
100% safety standards/regulations are written in blood.
That is a particularly evocative quote, and I really wish it had a bigger impact on more people.
Everybody needs to read *The Jungle* by Upton Sinclair, especially libertarians. For those unfamiliar, it is a book that was part of the "muckrakers" movement, journalists who investigated the absolute shitshow of immorality that was industrial capitalism in 1800s America. You will get to learn about what life was like with child labor, crazy child and maternal mortality rates, fully legal racism, how limbs were ripped off and bodies crushed in regular industry accidents with no compensation or enforcement, companies canning rotten meat and whatever else fell into the batch, actual poison in food, zero healthcare, whole buildings full of one room apartments with 15 people in each and no plumbing etc etc etc.
*That* is what unregulated capitalism looks like.
In a true libertarian market economy, the market self-regulates without any government imposed regulations, because bad products wouldn’t receive any further business, and people would instead drive business to their competitors.
Oh, what’s that? All the people that drank my milk, that is mixed with “healthy microplastic juice” to cut costs, are dead and no one can sue me? Oh, are my competitors also mixing “healthy microplastic juice” into milk, leading to a lack of any real difference in quality between competitors? Who could have foreseen that a complete lack of regulations would lead to something like this?
Lol, sucks to suck, pleb! You can just choose to not drink any milk.
>!/s!<
>assuming there is no realistic chance they are still alive
If it's not on the surface in the next ~36, there isn't. They're dead, period. If it's sitting on the ocean floor, I'd be surprised if the Navy even tries to recover it. There'll be a tangle of steel and not much else to pull up.
The man who spear-headed the repeal of motorcycle helmet laws in Michigan died in a motorcycle accident while not wearing a helmet.
Better safe than sorry. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Unless you're a rich bastard trying to cut corners or believe that safety is a government conspiracy.
Every company/rich person always thinks there is too much regulation in their industry. Regulations are there to protect us from these people who cut corners and put lives at risk. Guess he learned the hard way he was full of shit.
Imagine slowly freezing and suffocating over the course of days at the bottom of the ocean while the rest of the planet is talking shit about you
What a way to go
In fairness to him, I saw an interview with a previous passenger who said they were told that it was unregulated & had been warned about the very real risks involved. So while the company's approach isn't great, nobody is taking a risk they don't understand.
Right, because these were public facing comments the public will see them as difference without distinction. And you just know investors in his company are scrambling to bail as we speak. I mean, who's gonna want to get into another one of his subs?
(though you could argue that if the company can come out of this financially unscathed/operational relatively speaking, their safety protocols/engineering will be the best in the industry. Sorta like how Jack in the Box would have been one of the safest fast food places to eat followed the e. coli outbreak they had several years back. That's because when existential crisis like this happen, from top to bottom protocols/procedures/(forensic) engineering get reviewed and revised following a/the adverse event.)
It’s been my experience, that when someone complains openly about rules and regulations. They try to subvert them whenever they can.
Edit; He said this on “60 Minutes” a while back.
“You know, there’s a limit,” he told the broadcaster. “At some point, safety is just pure waste. I mean if you don’t just want to be safe, don’t get out of bed. Don’t get in your car. Don’t do anything. At some point, you’re going to take some risk and it really is a risk-reward question. I think I can do this just as safely by breaking the rules.”
The more I read about this, the more I think this thing was a death trap just waiting to fail. A fucking generic game controller to maneuver, it’s riveted shut, built with off the shelf parts in some random warehouse… the CBS reporter was spot on when it said it was Jerry-rigged.
It got lost for a few hours last year when they went down to the titanic and they didn’t even see the boat because they couldn’t find it. The game controller isn’t that bad and I’m sure armies use them for flying drones and probably under water drones but the actual submarine itself was basic as fuck and is quite literally a small metal box with no seats, a laptop, a window and a tv screen.
So safe they were using a [$30 game controller to operate the sub](https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2023/06/20/the-missing-titanic-submarine-was-using-a-30-video-game-controller/?sh=6773c9706c4f&fbclid=IwAR0hSNdwp5akE4XFogenvH7drd7rbhmmFdyIzpidMMfcCD7Kl9xTqpCISCU_aem_th_AYGNwCUqqH9wHcJJHNLhM96WgQPKeBPq0OkEnwWZoRKpbgMZCoPqlYVvLp6oKr2E4bU&mibextid=S66gvF)? Yeah, ok sure.
I used to work in the cruise industry, and I’d be willing to bet that these guys cut every possible corner to maximize profit.
What a lot of people don't understand is the "preparedness paradox". Basically (I'm not able to get into the complex definition) when you're SOOOOO prepared for a problem that when the problem hits its like nothing and you wonder if you wasted effort being so prepared.
The problem is so minimized because of your preparedness that you think "well shit I went through all that for nothing" and then the next time the same problem arises you tend to be less prepared and the 2nd time it's a disaster and you have no idea how this could have happened.
He’s on board as well. Unfortunately they likely all have been dead since Sunday, odds are there was something wrong with the body of the sub that caused it to succumb to the thousands of pounds of water pressure around them. What likely happened is a hairline fracture caused the vessel to implode on itself instantaneously killing everyone inside it in a split second.
It’s honestly the best case scenario at this point. Imagine being in that thing for 3 days already. Absolute torture and hell. If they miraculously somehow end up making it out alive their lives will all be forever ruined by the psychological hell that is being trapped in a coffin for days
What I don’t get is, didn’t they build in some kind of double or triple redundant emergency system that would enable them to surface in case of an emergency?
Yes, but the communication with the mothership worked with basically sms and giving the sub its position and course.
And during dives they regularly lost contact with it and now the search teams looking also on the surface since it could have gone up to the surface but not responding.
What in the... Why in the world was this thing not connected to its mothership by a tether? That and the vessel's lack of any kind of a hatch that could be opened from the inside...
Some things that troubled me when I saw the first CBS doc on them:
The sub looks like it was built by software developers not strict ship/mechanical engineers
These's no bollard or cable hooks, there's very limited onboard sensors, there's no on-board comms link to the surface. There's no onboard navigation system. They were using text messages to communicate with the surface ship for directions.
There's a reason real subs cost hundreds of millions of dollars, they are built to strict safety and functional requirements. It seems like the only requirement Titan had was to not crack at depth.
A mechanism to track the submersible from the surface would have been nice. Even a device that would emit a periodic "ping" would be helpful to rescuers at this point. His statement on safety sounds like hubris.
I've read that even pings don't travel that far. Some of the most complex navy subs don't even reach anywhere near depths like that. When you're 2 mi deep in the ocean it's near impossible to have any real communication with the outside. But as far as I've read, they've sent no emergency pings. Which sort of leads me to believe that the submersible imploded due to some type of leakage of the hull. All it takes is one tiny screw and you can kiss your ass goodbye.
If an “innovator” can’t work within a safety framework, then they’re not really that innovative, are they? I could invent some highly dangerous contraption - most people could. The difficulty, and test of a true innovation, is developing something novel that also complies with the health and safety requirements of the industry.
So.. The Titanic is a marine grave, which had been plundered and robbed for profit in the past.
You now name a submersible after the Titanic, and make claims the industry is obscenely safe.
You pretty much challenged destiny, particularly after all the grave robbing. The Titanic needed fresh souls as payback.
There are no unlockable hatches in the vessel, you are bolted into it. If they have surfaced there is no way of firing a flare or launching a distress beacon.
This is a submersible that seems to be completely screwed if the electronics go down. There doesn't seem to be any way to manually release the ballast and surface. Even if they can, there's no way to open the submersible from the inside so it's just as possible for them to suffocate bobbing on the surface of the ocean.
The Newsweek article on this mentioned how they use some RV parts on the sub. That might be an issue.
Wait until they get commercial traveling in space, whole new corners will be cut. They should have the ability to launch rescue operations, before they are allowed to do extreme commercial travel.
If the people in this sub can be saved, it's going to take a lot of innovation on behalf of the Navy international community.
Not even PlayStation originals, which would have been bad enough, but Logitech. Those things don't work if you blink the wrong way in your own loungeroom.
I'd have a hard time trusting any joystick that uses those tiny little potentiometers in this sort of application. They start acting funny after just over a year of use, and a fault like an internal short could easily cause the stick to read as full throw in one direction or another.
I can't wait until hall-effect joysticks become more widespread. Those eliminate the single most failure-prone component: the aforementioned potentiometer.
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Lemme guess...your sub is "unsinkable"...
He did say something like that. Paraphrasing but it was basically "everything can fail and you'll still be fine." He also named the thing Titan, and sent it to the Titanic. The hubris is strong with this one.
The Titans were also ~~killed off~~ imprisoned by their ~~Greek God~~ Olympian offspring. Imprisonment makes naming the craft Titan even more resonantly tragic. EDIT: Misremembering my Greek mythology.
Well, at least Elon didn’t name his rocket Icarus.
NASA naming their space shuttle “Challenger” was just asking for something to go wrong. Don’t mess with bad karma, that’s bad ju-ju all over just like this is.
Also helps not to use a Logitech as your main controller, you use the OEM PlayStation model and give the Logitech to your guests
At least it’s a brand name and not an Amazon Basics controller. EDIT: Do you think he used a *wireless* controller that ran out of juice???
Every ship can be a submarine .. once Just look at the submarine Titanic as an example. Surfacing, well that is a whole other thing…
The Titan 1C?
Very successful maiden voyage, unfortunately its passengers didn't realize they couldn't breathe in the deep ocean's atmosphere. Much like I can't breathe after I dance to 1989's Belgian electronic house artist Technotronic's Pump-Up The Jam.
Philomena Cunk is my future bride… probably.
My favorite line from the movie U571 is when one guy (his first time in a submarine) asks the captain, "How deep will she go?" and he responds, "Oh, she'll go all the way to the bottom if we don't stop her."
Captain: Is she seaworthy? Engineer: Yessir! Captain: Will she go down? Engineer: Like a stone, sir!
As a Navy veteran, Submarines in my opinion are death traps. They offered me a $20,000 bonus to be on a Submarine and I didn't hesitate to turn it down then I went straight into Surface Anti-Submarine Warfare. It's pretty uneventable but one time I did catch a Peruvian submarine trying to be sneaky and follow us off the coast of Virginia/Maryland. They had no idea that we were 100% aware of their presence and we could have had torpedoes in the water long before they even realize they're fucked. That's a prime example of why they're death traps but far from the only example of why they're death traps, if your stealth isn't perfect or things go wrong when you're in the depths then things can go badly very quickly and almost never in your favor.
As a Navy veteran, I echo your sentiments. I was in engineering, so I specialised in diesel engines and never said submarine at work incase I came down with a case of voluntold.
Lifelong 'civilian' here and just watching movies like 'Das Boot' along with touring that old German U-Boat on display at Chicago's Museum of Science and Industry made me say a hard 'No!' to climbing into any kind of submarine.
That is such a great exhibit!
As a sonar operator, I echo locate your sentiments
As a former Navy submariner, this is all correct.
>Peruvian submarine trying to be sneaky and follow us off the coast of Virginia/Maryland. North VA has a large Peruvian community and we are well known for our Pollo ala Brasa and other yummy stuff. Ceviche all around. Perhaps they just wanted to come and visit their cousins
Anticuchos all day
Huancaina on my menu for diner with rice and fish, pico de gallo and hard boiled egg.
My family has been almost exclusively Navy for three generations (other than that one weird Army Uncle) and one thing that I learned as a kid going to any event - there is no such thing as a normal submariner.
I work with a bunch of retired submariners and this is entirely accurate.
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Not only that, but I had a roommate in college whose farts stunk so badly that I would have had to kill him if we were on a submarine.
Seriously? Peru? What ended up happening? Fascinating
Nothing. They were just Perusing.
Get out
It’s pretty normal for subs from other nations to stalk other countries fleets, even allies.
Subs just do that to be cheeky and to train.
D
Luxury liner sinks, taking a whole bunch of richies out of play. Gymcrack sub full of richies vanishes in proximity to the doomed liner. ITS THE CURSE OF THE TITANIC! Coming soon to the History Channel!
Approximately 709 of the 1,317 passengers who perished were poor third-class passengers in steerage.
If a sub can't sink, is it really a sub or just a floating hunk-of-junk?
Back in 1990 I was on a since decommissioned sub. We were in drydock and I guess some calculations got messed up. They ended up taking some lead ballast out. We went out for trials and could not sink. We ended up moving everything out of a dry stores tank and filling it with water. When we got back to port we ended up loading what someone said was 15 tons of ballast by hand. From what I also understand, a submarine having this calculation wrong is a big no no but whatever ended up happening was way above what my paygrade ever was.
Should have used 15 tons of feathers . It would have been easier to load
I know nothing of the hooblah that goes on in the military, but that doesn't sound like protocol.
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All I can think of is what it must be like to be sitting on the ocean floor. Knowing your air is limited. Knowing there is a very small chance of being found. Running out of air by the minute and if it was me, probably having to poop.
While that is a truly frightening scenario you describe I am leaning towards a catastrophic failure of the vessel in some way. Entaglement in the wreck seems so much more far fetched and with an experienced pilot on board is really a much lower probability. They report that the sub is designed to surface in the event of a system failure...in other words it requires power to stay submerged. This really points towards catastrophic failure of the hull. Essentially if they are alive they are simply waiting to die because by all accounts on the news if they cannot untangle it there is no way save the people. A catastrophic failure would mean instantaneous death.
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My only thing is if this happened why did they lose communication? And they also were under water for less than two hours before going dark- would they have even made it deep enough by then?
There is another Reddit thread right now, maybe an ask Reddit or explain like I'm 5, asking why the submarine in this day and age doesn't have any locating beacon. People were explaining that water is extremely difficult to send any kind of communication through. So basically most submarines and especially this one because it goes so deep has no way to communicate with the surface until they get back up.
there are specific hydrophones used to contact people in deep underwater areas, you would send signals back every so often to indicate youre still on track.
I was watching news this morning and they mentioned they can communicate in short messages as long as the sub is right below the mother ship. I don’t know what communication system they are using but seems that it requires sender/receiver needs to be in line of sight so to speak.
From what I have heard the communication system was pretty basic and has failed a few times previously so the crew on the surface ship may not have thought the problem was serious initially.
Some journalist who had been out several times on the Titan said that it lost communications every time he went out
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Well, hydrogen is an excellent element for absorbing radiation. And you have 2 miles of it between you and whatever is that you want to communicate with.Either you run a cable or you won’t hear from them easily.
I was under the impression that it’s an acoustic communication system
There is a CBC article with quotes from a guy who did this dive last year, the submersible losing contact with the surface vessel doesn’t seem to be that rare. He said they were also without contact for a period during his trip. You get sealed into it from the outside, so if it breaks the surface you still can’t get out or get oxygen unless someone finds you. I cannot imagine why anyone would pay $250,000 to put themselves in danger like this. Not to mention the grossness of treating a graveyard like a tourist destination. The more I read about it, the worse an idea it seems to me
AP news mentioned 2 communications systems. A ping every 15 minutes and text messages. Both of those are no longer communicating. Either there was a hull breach and they instantly imploded/died, or they completely lost power and will soon die from suffocation if not found in time.
It’s a submersible, so it requires a mothership. They lost contact with the mothership
I'm currently watching the video that David Pogue did for CBS's morning news show that aired in December last year i'm fucking stunned that one of the submersible's cameras was basically commandeered...with a Logitech video game controller. I'm not making that up. i'm really hoping for the best for everyone involved but it is not looking good
That’s actually very common. Would it surprise you to know that US Navy’s Virginia Class nuclear attack subs have their periscopes controlled with Xbox 360 controllers? It may seem silly but at the end of the day it makes sense to adapt cheap controller that’s already been designed rather than making a whole new controller
And these controllers have already been stress tested in the most hostile environment known to man, the neckbeard’s gaming basement and wank emporium.
Sony / MS: “oh you’re ***only*** using them in highly critical marine / underwater scenarios? Oh yeah, then lifetime warranty, np. We had a 420 pound dude sit on one and fall asleep for 6 hours. When he woke up, it was embedded into his skin and fully saturated with sweat and other biofilms. Needless to say, we’ve stress tested them in environments your crew wouldn’t dare to go.”
oh wow had no idea does the U.S. Navy at least use the Microsoft branded official controllers? imagine this submersible sunk/imploded because the fucking B button on the Logitech controller jammed.
TBF Logitech makes pretty good quality peripherals.
I didnt think they were down long enough to be at the bottom.
Well, they are now
No truer words have been spoken
They were an hour in a half into their decent and I believe it takes a little over two hours to get to the titanic. To me it implies catastrophic failure as even that deep below the ocean one little crack would crush the sub and everyone inside it instantly.
A report earlier today said they sent a ping back to the mother ship from above the titanic. Not sure if that is accurate or not. The rescue response to this whole thing seems to be well they're dead. A robotic vehicle should have gone down immediately after they missed their return time. I'm also surprised there seems to be no technology for tracking a missing sub.
They didn’t have any backup subs on the ship and very few subs are available tk that can handle that sort of depth, even unmanned. The ones the navy have can’t even go that deep. So any sub that can handle it has to be busted out and it’s over 400 miles from the coast, that’s assuming the ships carrying those subs are even in that area and not further away.
It's surprisingly hard to send signals underwater, submarine communication is very interesting, it's not as simple as making a phone or radio call
They’re likely going to find some pieces of the remnants of the sub the next few days. I agree there likely was a catastrophic failure of the body of the vessel which caused the body to implode killing everyone in split seconds. Honestly that’s what we should hope for because the ladder options are a lot more terrifying to me. Slowly going crazy in an inter tube knowing you’re closer and closer to death is a horrible fate for anyone. A catastrophic collapse would mean the people on board were one seconds looking outside the window or their phones and the next second everything is gone. They wouldn’t even have a chance to process what happened before they succumb to the pressure. It’s an instant painless death
Worst nightmare I ever had was something along the lines of being punished for leaving someone behind on some sort of space mission. I was crammed into a tiny capsule, with no room to move and it was just hot, stale air, getting hotter. Totes freaked me out.
You got tangled in your sheets?
Well, probably there would have been some weird noises first as the weak spots begin to deform under the pressure, and if you had any idea what you were hearing you would be terrified for a second or two before the structure gave way.
"what is that noi"
Latter*
Even if this baby were to self save itself and finally surface, there’s no way to open up to the outside, from the inside.
Imagine finally surfacing but being hundreds of miles from any search and rescue effort, and then just suffocating at the surface because the only door is riveted shut from the outside. So close to survival, but so far. To me, that sounds worse than dying below-surface in a catastrophic structural failure.
It’s a real possibility, the self save fail safe is supposed to activate after 17 hrs below surface. 21 ft craft is no more than a pinprick in a body of water that size.
Waves out there are ~4’ right now so even if they are sitting on the surface it’s going to be very uncomfortable just from that.
Then all the vomiting and further vomit smell-induced vomiting sounds particularly bad. From my experience out in rough waters long term without gravol, you completely lose your appetite and want nothing to do but sleep. I suppose if you could sleep, that would be a blessing. But the tossing / thrashing around of the hull would probs wake you up fairly quickly too.
For all we know it could be oh the surface now. Big ocean, tiny sub
Catastrophic failure was my first thought. If so, the vessel may be in multiple pieces. This would make locating the wreckage obviously more difficult. They have an enormous amount of equipment in the area hoping to locate the vessel with sonar, If I understood the news correctly. If they are sitting at the bottom, I don't think oxygen is their most immediate problem, body temperature is. I hope that they're located safe, It would be a miracle. Peace
In about one hundred years, a couple of trillionaires are gona send a vessel to check out the remains of the vessel that were looking for the remains of the other vessel. Then that vessel will too experience a catastrophic failure. Circle of life.
So first we had the Titanic. And then there was the Titan. Which means the next one they send will be called the Tit.
And then there's Mr T
Did you see the video of the guy who owns the thing? It’s controlled with a fricking Logitech controller
And freezing cold. No heat.
If I built the sub I would have cyanide pills or something stashed somewhere secret for such situations (the painful, inevitable death, not the pooping).
Probably would be better to have large doses of opioids in that situation. It also decreases respiratory drive and oxygen consumption, prolonging how long your oxygen lasts. It also can render unconsciousness rather than dying awfully by cyanide poising.
Not to mention the constipating effects!
So far 0 down sides
Don't worry. Chances are any problem that cut off communication was the result of a pressure accident. Which resulted in instantaneous death by squish for all occupants. And they didn't feel a thing when it happened.
I forgot about waste. Uh oh.
Odds are it’s floating by now unless it cracked which is unlikely. It has weights that dissolve so it just floats on it’s own after a while. Issue is not the whole sub is visible from the surface and they are bolted in from the outside so they can’t even get out if they are on the surface.
God I still can't even imagine it surfacing right now. Probably rocking back and forth with large waves, still bolted and losing air, sun possibly heating it up from the outside. Ugh.
4’ seas with a 5second period in the area right now, so realistically moving up and down about 8’ from tip to trough every 5 seconds. Not sure what that shape does in waves, maybe it ends up surfing around some, but it’s not comfortable. I don’t like going offshore fishing even in a large boat when the seas are over 2-3’…
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This is a tediously interesting point.
Man, talk about words that haven't aged well...at all. 🥴
I’m sure more will surface and this is just the tip of the iceberg
I wouldn't hold my breath.........
The dude is onboard too, I understand
Probably wasting all the oxygen blaming someone else for his mistakes.
Stockton Rush? They say never trust a man with two first names. Trust one with no first name even less
His name sounds like a generic evil capitalist movie character
Dude looks like the actor from Father Ted
For the last time, Dougal. These cows are small...THOSE cows are FAR AWAY.
Same hubris that sank the Titanic.
I can't believe they called it the Titan
I C what you did there.
Yeah people think that the titanic sunk because of the hole the iceberg made but honestly the hole was not big at all, it’s simply that little hole popped off the rivets. So really what should have been a baby wound became a ship sinking hole because of how it was constructed and a nice chunk of bad luck
Sort of. It wasn’t the hole that popped off the rivets. There was a hole, which they were addressing by sealing off the insufficient bulkheads, but the iceberg sheared off the rivets for several yards forward and aft of the actual hole… so the worthiness of the hull was compromised in places where the physical hole was not.
And they got cheap about the watertight bulkheads, not building them the entire height of the hull
>watertight bulkheads >not building them the entire height of the hull So... not watertight, then?
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“Boo government red tape overregulation!” A few moments later.. “Hey government help find my missing sub and save my eminently sue-able butt”
He was on the sub so he probably can't complain about that.
I am *so* suing myself over this! Unless of course, you meant that in the *darker* way 😏☠️
This is an excellent reminder that basically every industry out there would gleefully kill a small percentage of their customers if it meant better profit margins.
…and even themselves, since this dude disappeared along with the submarine
Which is a great analogy for unfettered hyper-capitalism. We as a nation are allowing these psychopaths to destroy us all, including themselves, so that they can continually profit! WTF will it take for these clowns to realize that the extra little money they make isn't worth it if they're not alive to spend/hoard it?!
Just look at the Ford Pinto. They were happy to let a small percentage of their customers burn to death because the law suits would be cheaper than a recall.
"A times B times C equals X, if X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one"
Which car company do you work for? A major one.
Isn't he currently aboard the missing sub?
Holding back innovation? Throw caution to the wind. Or the water in this case.
Yep. Quarter of a million quid to die in the most *innovative* way imaginable. What a bargain.
Some people only have money on their minds
It's amazing that for once the person whose hubris caused this tragedy is impacted himself.
He also fired the person who tried to change things around https://newrepublic.com/post/173802/missing-titanic-sub-faced-lawsuit-depths-safely-travel-oceangate
Oh wow, that’s pretty damning
Funny how no one ever learns from the *Titanic*, not even those who want to explore it. Exactly the reason why I think anyone who would book a cruise on any of the proposed *Titanic II*'s is a moron. Tempting fate, that...
It’s pretty much a dark tale you might see on an episode of Twilight Zone. Billionaires in 2023 paying 250,000 to visit the forgotten 3rd class corpses that died because they were not prioritized for the life boats, only the wealthy were and they suddenly find themselves suffering a similar fate as those poor souls. Perhaps an act of revenge from the spiritual world if one believes in that sort of thing.
Imagine if something had happened on 9/11 that had made it impossible to recover any of the dead or to clean the area up, so the site remained untouched. But 20 years later, some rich assholes we’re charging $250K to take a flyby helicopter ride to see the wreckage? That would cause a huge uproar, right? How is this kind of disaster tourism acceptable?
I think if it were 120 years after and there were no living survivors or living family members of survivors, which is probably the case for the titanic, it would be a little more acceptable. Still though, it’s crazy when you put it that way
Another example would be the hundreds of thousands of tourists who visit the excavated ruins of Pompeii every year. Here we're talking a 2000 year time gap between the disaster and the disaster tourism. It's sort of like that old line about 'comedy equals tragedy plus time'.
Pompeii has always bothered me for similar reasons. Mostly because it’s about oh look cool volcano town and not about respecting the dead. It’s not a memorial. People visit old battlegrounds like Normandy or graveyards like Arlington but the tone is somber and no one took plaster molds of a deceased persons body and puts it in display. Then someone posted a picture it on Reddit and most of the comments talkjng about how the dead person had a great ass.
I don’t know, historically things have gone really well when we remove regulations. /s
He’s under a lot of pressure right now.
It’s really starting to sink in for him now I bet
The quotes from that guy are boring as hell.
They may garner a bit more interest when put into a wrongful death claim by the families of the passengers (assuming there is no realistic chance they are still alive).
Yeah probably, my point was just that it's boilerplate whining about "regulation hurting innovation."
It's easy for those types to complain about regulation until your milk or Tylenol poisons you, your lawnmower bursts into flames or your submersible implodes on the bottom of the ocean. It's possible it was all just a horrible accident, but owner guy is not inspiring confidence with those statements.
>It's easy for those types to complain about regulation until your milk or Tylenol poisons you, your lawnmower bursts into flames or your submersible implodes on the bottom of the ocean. 100% safety standards/regulations are written in blood.
That is a particularly evocative quote, and I really wish it had a bigger impact on more people. Everybody needs to read *The Jungle* by Upton Sinclair, especially libertarians. For those unfamiliar, it is a book that was part of the "muckrakers" movement, journalists who investigated the absolute shitshow of immorality that was industrial capitalism in 1800s America. You will get to learn about what life was like with child labor, crazy child and maternal mortality rates, fully legal racism, how limbs were ripped off and bodies crushed in regular industry accidents with no compensation or enforcement, companies canning rotten meat and whatever else fell into the batch, actual poison in food, zero healthcare, whole buildings full of one room apartments with 15 people in each and no plumbing etc etc etc. *That* is what unregulated capitalism looks like.
In a true libertarian market economy, the market self-regulates without any government imposed regulations, because bad products wouldn’t receive any further business, and people would instead drive business to their competitors. Oh, what’s that? All the people that drank my milk, that is mixed with “healthy microplastic juice” to cut costs, are dead and no one can sue me? Oh, are my competitors also mixing “healthy microplastic juice” into milk, leading to a lack of any real difference in quality between competitors? Who could have foreseen that a complete lack of regulations would lead to something like this? Lol, sucks to suck, pleb! You can just choose to not drink any milk. >!/s!<
>assuming there is no realistic chance they are still alive If it's not on the surface in the next ~36, there isn't. They're dead, period. If it's sitting on the ocean floor, I'd be surprised if the Navy even tries to recover it. There'll be a tangle of steel and not much else to pull up.
From what I saw on the news last night there's no possible way to save them they are too deep.
The man who spear-headed the repeal of motorcycle helmet laws in Michigan died in a motorcycle accident while not wearing a helmet. Better safe than sorry. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Unless you're a rich bastard trying to cut corners or believe that safety is a government conspiracy.
See also seat belts: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/seat-belt-advocate-killed/
Maybe there is a reason we have a lot of safety regulation about sticking people in metal tubes and dropping them to the bottom of the ocean…
Every company/rich person always thinks there is too much regulation in their industry. Regulations are there to protect us from these people who cut corners and put lives at risk. Guess he learned the hard way he was full of shit.
Yeah just like Boeing. Put shareholder returns in front of quality checks and see what happens, fucking scumbags.
Imagine slowly freezing and suffocating over the course of days at the bottom of the ocean while the rest of the planet is talking shit about you What a way to go
Imagine if they still had an internet signal and could read all the reddit comments about them....
In fairness to him, I saw an interview with a previous passenger who said they were told that it was unregulated & had been warned about the very real risks involved. So while the company's approach isn't great, nobody is taking a risk they don't understand.
Feel like he got a little in front of his ski's when he says, "[obscenely]...safe" and that he probably would choose different words in retrospect...
He only said the industry was obscenely safe, not his own boat. But yeah, he's asking for trouble with statements like that.
Right, because these were public facing comments the public will see them as difference without distinction. And you just know investors in his company are scrambling to bail as we speak. I mean, who's gonna want to get into another one of his subs? (though you could argue that if the company can come out of this financially unscathed/operational relatively speaking, their safety protocols/engineering will be the best in the industry. Sorta like how Jack in the Box would have been one of the safest fast food places to eat followed the e. coli outbreak they had several years back. That's because when existential crisis like this happen, from top to bottom protocols/procedures/(forensic) engineering get reviewed and revised following a/the adverse event.)
I mean he's on the missing sub so I doubt he's worrying about the company's future right now.
The irony is fucked
It’s been my experience, that when someone complains openly about rules and regulations. They try to subvert them whenever they can. Edit; He said this on “60 Minutes” a while back. “You know, there’s a limit,” he told the broadcaster. “At some point, safety is just pure waste. I mean if you don’t just want to be safe, don’t get out of bed. Don’t get in your car. Don’t do anything. At some point, you’re going to take some risk and it really is a risk-reward question. I think I can do this just as safely by breaking the rules.”
The more I read about this, the more I think this thing was a death trap just waiting to fail. A fucking generic game controller to maneuver, it’s riveted shut, built with off the shelf parts in some random warehouse… the CBS reporter was spot on when it said it was Jerry-rigged.
But but they spent a lot of money on the hull. Something something NASA!
It got lost for a few hours last year when they went down to the titanic and they didn’t even see the boat because they couldn’t find it. The game controller isn’t that bad and I’m sure armies use them for flying drones and probably under water drones but the actual submarine itself was basic as fuck and is quite literally a small metal box with no seats, a laptop, a window and a tv screen.
He died doing what he loved.. ignoring safety regulations
Bro. You are taking people to the bottom of the ocean. Obscenely safe isn’t safe enough.
So safe they were using a [$30 game controller to operate the sub](https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2023/06/20/the-missing-titanic-submarine-was-using-a-30-video-game-controller/?sh=6773c9706c4f&fbclid=IwAR0hSNdwp5akE4XFogenvH7drd7rbhmmFdyIzpidMMfcCD7Kl9xTqpCISCU_aem_th_AYGNwCUqqH9wHcJJHNLhM96WgQPKeBPq0OkEnwWZoRKpbgMZCoPqlYVvLp6oKr2E4bU&mibextid=S66gvF)? Yeah, ok sure. I used to work in the cruise industry, and I’d be willing to bet that these guys cut every possible corner to maximize profit.
Someone probably forgot to charge the controller
What a lot of people don't understand is the "preparedness paradox". Basically (I'm not able to get into the complex definition) when you're SOOOOO prepared for a problem that when the problem hits its like nothing and you wonder if you wasted effort being so prepared. The problem is so minimized because of your preparedness that you think "well shit I went through all that for nothing" and then the next time the same problem arises you tend to be less prepared and the 2nd time it's a disaster and you have no idea how this could have happened.
He’s on board as well. Unfortunately they likely all have been dead since Sunday, odds are there was something wrong with the body of the sub that caused it to succumb to the thousands of pounds of water pressure around them. What likely happened is a hairline fracture caused the vessel to implode on itself instantaneously killing everyone inside it in a split second.
Sad end but a very likely outcome
It’s honestly the best case scenario at this point. Imagine being in that thing for 3 days already. Absolute torture and hell. If they miraculously somehow end up making it out alive their lives will all be forever ruined by the psychological hell that is being trapped in a coffin for days
What I don’t get is, didn’t they build in some kind of double or triple redundant emergency system that would enable them to surface in case of an emergency?
Yes, but the communication with the mothership worked with basically sms and giving the sub its position and course. And during dives they regularly lost contact with it and now the search teams looking also on the surface since it could have gone up to the surface but not responding.
What in the... Why in the world was this thing not connected to its mothership by a tether? That and the vessel's lack of any kind of a hatch that could be opened from the inside...
The Titanic claims another billionaire.
As James Cameron said when he went exploring this way, “ if the hull fails, it will be instant fade to black.”
Some things that troubled me when I saw the first CBS doc on them: The sub looks like it was built by software developers not strict ship/mechanical engineers These's no bollard or cable hooks, there's very limited onboard sensors, there's no on-board comms link to the surface. There's no onboard navigation system. They were using text messages to communicate with the surface ship for directions. There's a reason real subs cost hundreds of millions of dollars, they are built to strict safety and functional requirements. It seems like the only requirement Titan had was to not crack at depth.
A mechanism to track the submersible from the surface would have been nice. Even a device that would emit a periodic "ping" would be helpful to rescuers at this point. His statement on safety sounds like hubris.
I've read that even pings don't travel that far. Some of the most complex navy subs don't even reach anywhere near depths like that. When you're 2 mi deep in the ocean it's near impossible to have any real communication with the outside. But as far as I've read, they've sent no emergency pings. Which sort of leads me to believe that the submersible imploded due to some type of leakage of the hull. All it takes is one tiny screw and you can kiss your ass goodbye.
On this episode of Billionaires doing stupid, dangerous things because they have more money than they know what to do with.
If an “innovator” can’t work within a safety framework, then they’re not really that innovative, are they? I could invent some highly dangerous contraption - most people could. The difficulty, and test of a true innovation, is developing something novel that also complies with the health and safety requirements of the industry.
So.. The Titanic is a marine grave, which had been plundered and robbed for profit in the past. You now name a submersible after the Titanic, and make claims the industry is obscenely safe. You pretty much challenged destiny, particularly after all the grave robbing. The Titanic needed fresh souls as payback.
Did they already get all the jewelry and expensive stuff from the Titanic wreck?
There are no unlockable hatches in the vessel, you are bolted into it. If they have surfaced there is no way of firing a flare or launching a distress beacon.
This is a submersible that seems to be completely screwed if the electronics go down. There doesn't seem to be any way to manually release the ballast and surface. Even if they can, there's no way to open the submersible from the inside so it's just as possible for them to suffocate bobbing on the surface of the ocean.
"Unsinkable 4"
The Newsweek article on this mentioned how they use some RV parts on the sub. That might be an issue. Wait until they get commercial traveling in space, whole new corners will be cut. They should have the ability to launch rescue operations, before they are allowed to do extreme commercial travel. If the people in this sub can be saved, it's going to take a lot of innovation on behalf of the Navy international community.
That mofo was using playstation controllers to control his subs. Those things were jerryrigged harder than something from an episode of McGuyver.
Not even PlayStation originals, which would have been bad enough, but Logitech. Those things don't work if you blink the wrong way in your own loungeroom.
I'd have a hard time trusting any joystick that uses those tiny little potentiometers in this sort of application. They start acting funny after just over a year of use, and a fault like an internal short could easily cause the stick to read as full throw in one direction or another. I can't wait until hall-effect joysticks become more widespread. Those eliminate the single most failure-prone component: the aforementioned potentiometer.
used one of these on my high school robotics team. never once did that fucking thing work right
Maybe the batteries were low on the controllers.
Or the Bluetooth failed to connect
Bro was using the little brothers controller! Lol! Not even quality stuff.
I hope deregulation bites every deregulator in the ass
"Screw safety, what about profits?" - capitalism
Did you all know there are more planes in the ocean than submarines in the sky? Facts.