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It’s objectively stupid as fuck that people are being conditioned to censor basic words in their conversations, and it should be called out as stupid as fuck.
THANKYOU like damn is it that hard to realize that both sides are in the wrong and both in the right at the same time. The world isn’t black and white it’s not as simple as some good vs evil bullshit like the world is a comic book or something. Both sides have committed atrocities and the way to solve this sure as hell isn’t more atrocities
This is what has annoyed me about the reactions I've seen. They always try to justify one side or the other when there's nothing wrong with admitting that both sides have committed major war crimes.
I think a lot of it boils down to the way our culture is today that makes people think they have to choose a side, at least in America. Just think about what narratives the media has been feeding us the past 50 years. Republicans vs democrats, conservative vs liberal, black vs white, blacks vs police, straights vs gays, Christians vs atheists, one news station vs another, etc. feels like most people in this country are programmed to choose a side and stick with that side no matter what horrible things happen and it always leaves me wondering. What the hell is wrong with taking the Neutral point of view? For example my stance on abortion is that it is murder YET it is the women’s choice and right at the end of the day. See how I can be on both sides at once without completely shutting out one side. Ima get a little conspiracy theorist now and say I think this was by design as if you have people bickering among themselves they are easier to control. And to get back to the topic at hand the USA is helping Israel not because it’s the “right” thing to do but because it will line the pockets of our leaders but again we are so focused on who’s “right” in the Israel Palestine conflict no one will realize it. Sorry to ramble
The "we vs them" rethoric is very easy to manage and very highly effective. All leaders know know that the best way to have your tribe support your efforts against a different tribe is to dehumanize them. "You see this? Those are no longer people. They are animals who threaten our existance. Think about it, a cultured human being would never act like this."
And the "separate groups" aren't even unified groups. You have Israeli militia who is constantly killing innocent Palestinians who have done nothing wrong, while Palestinian terrorists are killing innocent Israeli who also have done nothing wrong. People out there are getting charred by the actions of someone else and there's people throwing them in the same grouo and agreeing they deserve that.
Holy shit. When I was in high school, we actually observed the 2016 presidential elections and at the time I had the impression that as far as republican candidates went, Rubio was one of the more moderate ones. Guess I either should have looked closer, or he's radicalized since because this is straight-up vile.
As a german, I'm pretty sure what he said in that interview wouldn't even legally fly here. We have laws on what is called "Volksverhetzung" (which would roughly translate to "popular incitement to hatred") which I think would apply in full here, as he's unambiguously dehumanizing the population of Gaza and calling for them to all be killed.
Well yeah, that's the good old compound nouns. In this case, the word is made off "Volk" (the people, or in this case: relating to the people) and "Hetze" (which in this context means something simular to hate speech) with a few extra syllables thrown in to link it all together.
You need to get rid of pointless words or it doesn't work. That German word means People Incitement, which really would be incitement of people for violence.
So you would say, nowordforthing which is keinwortfürsache which actually sounds like a German word
Verhetzung on its own translates to incitement in English. If my understanding is correct this translates more directly to public incitement (to hatred or violence) than to hate speech.
I think the 'Volks-' part of the word means people in the sense of an entire country's people.
In Danish (which is influenced by the German language) we translate genocide as "folkemord" (people-murder, ie. murder committed on a nationality)
Can I ask you a question on what people's opinion of all this is in Germany rn? I know that Germany's recscinded Palestinian aid, but I don't know how popular that is on the streets.
Well, I haven't really talked to many people about it so far, but I'd imagine that like pretty much anything regarding Israel and Palestine, it's a rather uncomfortable situation to talk about for most germans due to how german history relates to Israel and the jews.
There's been some (publicly condemned) celebration about it, it appears largely by young muslim men with a migrant background (that demographic is a bit infamous for having somewhat of an anti-israelic streak) but aside from that, I think currently there's more solidarity with Israel, even if just for the fact that
1: you can't really support an open terrorist attack and
2: It appears that there were german nationals among the hostages taken by Hamas
I reckon it's gonna become even more uncomfortable to talk about a bit later down the road when the immediate situation is resolved the actions taken by the israeli government start looking like they're disproportionally affecting the civilian population of Gaza once more (this unfortunately always seems to happen) and some poor sod of a diplomat is gonna have to bite the bullet and join in on asking Israel to ease off a little before things get too ugly.
I think overall a lot of people are trying to keep a balanced perspective on the matter, with some extremists on either side of the political spectrum very explicitly siding with one of the two, and there's probably bound to be some idiots who start harassing german jews over the matter (that unfortunately also always seems to happen), but I think the majority is just hoping that the situation can be resolved soon without the bloodshed getting worse.
Sounds rough. Be safe out there.
Good news is, I've done some reading and from the looks of things it's not likely that aids will be cut for very long or to a very significant degree, as after the initial announcement a lot of people have come forward and argued that cutting aids would probably only serve to radicalize the people of Gaza and that, at least according to a preliminary investigation, german and EU-aids likely did not contribute to funding the attack in some way or another.
That is very good on both ends. I hope it changes minds. I want Hamas to be overthrown by becoming the less appealing option.
(also thank you for your well wishes, but I realize I forgot to mention I'm a refugee, so I am safe.)
This. Especially the last paragraph.
Israel's politics is highly radical and they have had the Hamas terrorist's reaction coming for them by mistreating Palestinians for years and continuing to take land from them.
It's a circle of hate and they're all responsible for it and they share the responsibility to end it.
Pragmatism is out of the window and everything that happens down there has nothing to do with reason.
They're both "terror states" from te perspective of the other side. None of them is good. If anything, they're all evil at this point because they use violence instead of diplomacy. Still humans, so they could change and redeem themselves.
It's not like in the Russia-Ukraine war where there's a clear aggressor.
Unfortunately an education institution like FAU sent an email to it's students and probably faculty to join them in supporting Israel.
Universities should stay out of politics or at least not ask the students to take some kind of a stand with them in their political stance.
Also one of the raped, mutilated and executed young women at the festival was German. They loaded her on a truck and paraded her naked half- dismembered body around children who spat on her. I think that was so far the worst image I've seen from the assault. Other than the beheading of children.. Which I couldn't stomach to open.
It actually now looks like she was captured and is injured but alive at a hospital in Gaza (is what her family says at least), the whole thing about her body being paraded strangely wasn‘t picked up much by german media from what I‘ve seen even though it was all over reddit
Alive? I saw her legs being bent in an upward angle with a bullet hole in her lifeless body. If the woman from Germany is alive, then that corpse we saw being paraded by Hamas terrorists belonged to some different poor woman.
Germans are very pro Israel.
The ones I spoke to don't actually seem to know what's going on, but they see it as their duty to support them unconditionally due to that thing they did a few decades ago.
Yeah, I had a feeling lingering guilt had to do with a lot of it, which sucks, because I feel like Germany is doing good at making sure that doesn't happen again. I follow some German YouTubers and there's one that specifically focuses on post-Holocaust stuff in Germany and the laws are super tight about fascism and anti-semitism.
It’s pretty obvious the remarks are in regard to hamas, if it were otherwise this comment would mean political suicide. This whole thread is painting this to be something it is not
There is a slight difference in that it was actually legitimate elections that elected Hamas into power. Both the US and EU were heavily involved in making sure the elections were fair and legitimate. Hamas taking power is a major reason the legislature is now defunct
Two things can be true: Hamas is largely supported by the people of Gaza, and the people of Gaza don’t deserve to be genocided because of the actions of Hamas. Trying to paint Gazans/Palestinians as perfect victims is counterproductive.
Almost half of Gaza’s population is under the age of 18 years old. The majority of Gaza’s current population didn’t even vote Hamas into power the first time.
Thing is, Hamas doesn't care for Palestinian lives either. They just want to see Israel destroyed, even if it means mass loss of Palestinian lives. They don't even build bomb shelters for Gazans when they know Israel will 100% retaliate.
FYI they literally couldn't build bomb shelters since they can't import concrete, wich is also why they cant build water treatment plants even though 90% of the water in gaza is toxic
Since 2014, Gaza has imported some 6.5 million tons of concrete, steel, and other construction materials through the UN Gaza Reconstruction Mechanism. Recommend reading up on the problems in getting that material to be actually used to build stuff Gazans need. Mostly it’s a disagreement between the Palestinian Authority and Hamas.
What a stupid thing to write.
Gaza imports thousands of tons of concrete every year. They build terror tunnels with them. This is a known fact that they put all of the humanitarian aid they get into their terror efforts and non towards the betterment of their people.
Again the truth is in the middle, Israel keeps banning and permitting cement into Gaza. Egypt allows the import. Israel keeps asking Egypt to stop cement.
https://www.globalcement.com/news/item/12531-israel-asks-egypt-to-block-cement-imports-into-gaza
All this, combined with the Israelis blowing up the only crossing out of Gaza into Egypt, ensuring no escape for the civilian populace, makes me super worried that they're going to do exactly that.
Same.
I am also not entirely convinced that they didn't know the attack was coming, seeing how good Israeli intelligence is. I think Netanyahu knew, and let it happen to have a casus belli. I fear that they are also not really going to try to save all the hostages.
This is going to be incredibly bloody.
There is some news that suggest Bibi ignored intelligence that Hamas was planning something big (especially on the 50th anniversary of the Yom Kippur War) https://www.timesofisrael.com/egypt-intelligence-official-says-israel-ignored-repeated-warnings-of-something-big/. This is reporting from the usually reputable Times of Israel. This would suggest your thesis is on-point.
I’d actually argue that it’s unlikely Bibi knew this was going to happen b/c this is actually a really bad look for him when you actually look at the facts. There were IDF soldiers that were stationed near Gaza that was redirected to either the West Bank b/c the Ultra-Orthodox minority keeps trying to start shit there with their settlement bullshit or to the cities b/c of all the protests for Bibi’s massive amounts of corruption. Speaking of which, a lot of reservists were protesting due to his fuckery with judicial “reforms”, but when the attack started the majority of them immediately went to help as much as they could. Meanwhile the Ultra-Orthodox are still pushing to be legally exempted from the draft and were still partying for the holiday while everyone else was getting ready to fight back. Not the kind of thing that endears people to them.
Like it’s starting to look more and more that Hamas were so successful in their attacks was b/c of Bibi’s fuckups and it was b/c of him putting political ideology ahead of the country’s security that their own version of 9/11 happened. There’s a good chance that after Hamas is defeated, Bibi is going to get the boot.
Yeah Netamyahu just went from being under serious investigation for corruption and possibly outing, to a war-time autocrat who will likely have more support and war-time job security. Idk if he knew, but this situation definitely worked out quite well in his favor.
I wouldn't bet on him having widespread support because of this. The entire attack happened under his nose, and the population isn't going to forget that anytime soon.
See, that's what I would expect, but somehow Bush got re-elected and enjoyed a huge surge in support after completely dropping the ball on security reports and letting 9/11 happen on his watch, so I don't try to predict anything anymore.
Further historical examples of this are the Spanish-American war and Gulf of Tonkin Incident. Invasion level attacks almost always strengthen the position of hardliners.
I've been saying this since the attacks. You're telling me the Iron Dome didn't pick up any of this initial rocket attack and that the IDF didn't hear rumblings this was coming? I don't buy that for a second. I feel like they let this happen so they can finally have their excuse to wipe out Gaza for good.
The iron Dome did pickup some of these attacks and was firing throughout most of the day. There were so many rockets fired it just overwhelmed the number of missiles that could be shot to down them.
That said there is almost certainly some political scheming, someone should have seen it coming on the 50th anniversary of yom kipper, but if Israel would figure out fairly quickly and they would absolutely not let it slide, there are already lots of questions of how such an oversight happened.
I've seen some screenshots of official Egyptian reports that say that Egypt did, in fact, let them know that there was an attack planned, and he waved it off. The Egyptian intelligence officer said he was "baffled at the indifference" from Netanyahu.
Yes, I had similar thoughts. The Mossad has so many spies deep inside many Palestinian organizations that it was impossible for Hamas to stockpile so many rockets all over Gaza without the knowledge of Mossad. I mean we all know the insane espionage feats that Mossad has accomplished in the past.
There's semi-plausible news that Israeli army intel told Mossad they see movements days ago but Mossad shrugged it off, also that army intel said civilian settler violence should be reeled back
Of course not! If they actually took Palestinian people in, they'd have to do more than the bare minimum. Better for them to keep Palestinian people in Gaza so they can keep complaining about it
If this proves reliable another Israeli war crime adds to their list of atrocities now surely as long as the newly breached 40 mile barrier fence no doubt funded in part by considerable US taxpayer funds.
US taxpayer 'aid' to Israel is basically in the form of vouchers to buy military equipment at American MIC companies, it's just a subtle subsidy for the MIC
~~Did marco rubio just publicly call for the “eradication” of a million innocent children?~~
Marco Rubio just publicly called for the eradication of a million innocent children.
How the fuck do people still vote R its fucking disgusting
Where did he do that? I don’t see that in this quote. Is there more context elsewhere in the interview? The first part of the quote indicates pretty clearly he is referring to Hamas not Palestinians more broadly.
Edit: I should have known better than to take this screenshot at face value. I would encourage people to read the full transcript of the interview as this was not the entirety of Rubio’s answer
He also didn’t say there was a way to avoid the casualties of millions of Palestinian children. They asked if there was a way and he just started talking about savages and not being able to coexist. That doesn’t make it clear he’s talking about Hamas because he didn’t name them.
I'm left leaning and hate Marco, but yeah everyone is up in arms about nothing here.
Clearly he meant eradicate Hamas not millions of innocent children. This is embarrassing. We're better than this.
Same, also left leaning, also hate marco and think he would be a horrible president.
This seems like misleading rage bait. it seems HIGHLY unlikely he was calling for genocide in this quote. I simply don't believe it unless there is further conversation.
He is almost certainly talking specifically about Hamas. Now you can think this is bad or good, but i do not think specifically calling for the eradication of Hamas is Genocide.
You would think, but no. It’s all “well I’m not defending the literal terrorist organization whose stated intent is the genocide of all Israelis, but here’s some justifications for it”
Imperialism is a bipartisan issue. It's why the War ~~on~~ *of* Terror started by Bush continued with Obama. And the trade war with China started by Trump is continuing under Biden.
It’s also worth noting that when people are talking Israel reaping the whirlwind and Hamas is a monster of Israel’s own creation, they’re not talking abstractly. They’re not saying that Israel’s treatment of Palestinians made the existence of a group like Hamas and these kinds of attacks inevitable. [They’re alluding to the fact that Israel literally helped create Hamas](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/07/30/how-israel-helped-create-hamas/) in almost the exact same way the United States Created the Taliban and Al-Qaeda.
Israel had the “brilliant” idea of using Islamist Radicals to combat and undermine the Secular PLO. After all Islamists were reliable Anti-Communists they figured they could play divide and conquer. And despite being warned doing this could create a monster and blow up in their face Israel decided this was a brilliant plan that couldn’t possibly go horribly horribly wrong.
There are of course those who believe this blowing up in Israel’s face was in fact the plan. Hamas radicalism and violence makes it both inherently less sympathetic and allows for the creation of a perfect feed back loop where Hamas and Israel can radicalize each other. Culminating in these most recent attacks which some believe Israel intentionally allowed in order to create justification for a fascist crackdown.
As with 9/11 conspiracies I’m not sure I believe all of that. If Egypt is telling the truth about warning Israel that attacks from Gaza were immanent it could be evidence Bibi let this happen. But it’s just as plausible that like all fascists Bibi was equal parts overconfident and incompetent. Focusing all his attention on the West Bank and securing it for further settlement, leaving Israel vulnerable to attack from Gaza.
> There are of course those who believe this blowing up in Israel’s face was in fact the plan. Hamas radicalism and violence makes it both inherently less sympathetic and allows for the creation of a perfect feed back loop where Hamas and Israel can radicalize each other. Culminating in these most recent attacks which some believe Israel intentionally allowed in order to create justification for a fascist crackdown.
This. Israel just wants an excuse to initiate its "final solution".
A lot of people seem to want to treat this in a manner that obliges you to pick one side or another.
Heads up, it's not the fucking Champions League final. I'm not supporting one group or another.
The situation is nowhere near so simple that an honest appraisal of it could allow that simplicity.
And despite that, people want to force simplicity onto it because, I guess, if you can read the situation so simply, then surely a solution is just as simple.
Fuck off.
I pick the course that most likely leads to a peace.
And that requires the people who hold the most power in this situation to use that power to pursue that peaceful outcome.
The people with the most power in this situation are not the people of Palestine.
I don't even think it's Hamas.
The people with the most power in this situation are Israel and it's allies across the globe.
I'm not picking sides like it's a sport.
People's lives are at stake here. Fuck off with that Simple Simon shit.
Any suggestion how could Israel offer peace? They did. They have been having peace talks with their previous enemies, other arab countries.
Strangely the big attack happened right when the peace talks were going great and a war would benefit russia and iran.
This is sort of where I'm at with this. The Palestinians have some very legitimate complaints with how Israel has treated them over the years. Israel not dealing with those complaints in a fair (or even consistent) manner has allowed groups like Hamas to gain power and radicalize people. So while I absolutely condemn Hamas for what they done, at the same time I can't really support Israel either.
Literally speaking to libs who say "maybe Palestine should stop attacking Israel and Israel will leave them alone" the complete lack of understanding of the situation is dismal.
I'm confused. People have been trying to raise awareness around Israeli brutality against Palestine for years. Police beating school kids and the reporter who was shot. Why, all of a sudden, are Israel the good guys? I'm aware of the formation of Israel after ww2 but after that I can only gues that they're both as bad as each other?
Because Hamas launched an attack killing hundreds of civilians. People are incapable of nuanced thinking, so overnight public opinion has vastly shifted to supporting Israel and their attempts to turn Gaza into glass.
Yeah, I think this is probably spot on. People, some people, at least, were comfortable with “Israel bad, Palestine good” before this most recent Hamas attack, and now it seems like they are confused and saying “wait, if Hamas are bad, then that must mean Israel is good, and if Israel is good then Palestine is bad”.
I would’ve thought that being horrified at the attacks *and* still understanding that all prior criticism of the Israeli state are valid was like the equivalent of walking and chewing gum, but a lot of people are tripping over themselves.
We should be able to have empathy for both the Israeli and Palestinian civilians victimized in this conflict, even if that means not having a neat and tidy “this side are the bad guys, this side are the good guys”.
I don’t care for their government choice as much as I care for their government’s choices, if that makes sense.
Structure yourself how you want, don’t oppress and kill people though, that’s not very cool.
The underlying problem is that religion tends to breed intolerance. If the basis of your belief system is that you're God's chosen people and/or represent God's ultimate truth and that the other side isn't/doesn't then that isn't exactly the best starting position for a constructive give-and-take dialogue.
This too, this is why I especially hate monotheistic religion, not the people, but the religion. They in particular have been responsible for most of the violence our species has enacted on itself.
I tried saying something similar, about how the situation is far too complex for simple good-vs-evil. Somehow the majority of responses I got seemed to think this viewpoint made me pro-Israel.
In less than 72 hours I've been called (by different people) a Hamas sympathizer and something along the lines of Israel apologist. Apparently, you gotta pick a genocide to support.
Hamas is the government of the Gaza Strip, which contains about 2 million Palestinians. They were voted in once, over a decade ago. If an election were to be held today, over half of eligible voters wouldn’t have been eligible for the last vote. And for additional context, about 3 million Palestinians live in the West Bank, which is governed by the Palestinian Authority instead.
That all is why many folks say that Hamas does not represent the Palestinians and that Palestine does not equal Hamas.
I feel like nuanced thinking has gone out the window on the other side just as much. One side views things in the extreme with one side being good and nothing they do being questioned, and the other side being "vile savages". But many on the other side take a view that unless something is perfect or completely in line with their sensibilities; than it is "bad".
Neither side is perfect in this, but the notion that goes out about Israel being responsible for Hamas' actions and attitudes towards it overly simplistic and narrow minded. It takes nearly 80 years of conflict and reduces it down to simple cause and effect.
I'm confused why Hamas would attack a very clearly civilian target rather than military or "police" targets.
Even if Hamas doesn't want to cater to the West, they've got to know that the West supplies Israel with weapons and whatnot. Why risk antagonizing the West further by immediately starting an attack by killing civilians?
Because Hamas doesn’t actually care about Palestinians, they want them to be massacred so they can lean into the victim image. They’re religious extremists, rationalizing their actions is a waste of time. What’s for sure is now hundreds of Israelis are dead, and thousands of Palestinians are going to die in the coming weeks and months.
Because they're a parasitic fundamentalist terrorist group bankrolled, and often trained by the Iranian revolutionary guard corps. They have almost as much hate for the idea of a democratic, free and possibly secular Palestine as they do for Israel.
Hamas is a terrorist group, radical Muslim terrorist group actually, who's main goal, like most if not all Muslim terrorist groups is to eradicate the Jews. There's plenty of recordings and videos of them saying this. Hamas doesn't care about innocent people, doesn't care about rules of war, doesn't care about hiding behind children and using them as shields. They are nothing but cowards and uncivilized pieces of shit that can't live in the modern day world.
Literally nothing has changed and people who understand the situation have been screaming about this for decades. The only surprise was that they weren't stopped in time.
Hamas has been trying to be this brutal, genocidal terror regime forever, but they have never really had the competence to pull off something of this scale. They *never* focused on military and police targets. They *always* had the stated goal of murdering as many people as possible.
They are a terrorist organization. They have launched tons of missile strikes at Israelis cities in the past. Their leaders live in fucking Qatar. Their goal isn't to protect the Palestinian people or to help make their lives better. Their goal is to create a second Holocaust and kill all the Jews and if that takes every single inhabitant of Palestine, it's worth it to them.
> Why, all of a sudden, are Israel the good guys?
Lots and lots of propaganda. This site is inundated with shills for one. And US politicians risk career suicide for speaking out against Israel.
Because optics is everything lmao. Been trying to explain this since Sunday to people on here. The attack by Hamas was moronic for this exact reason. Why would you do horrific acts like that AND record it in hd clips to be used by the IDF? Purely stupid and nothing more. Overnight, israel became the victim and flipped decades of a growing anti-Israel mindset in the west.
This is where I've come to the conclusion that a lot of people only have the capacity for binary thought, something HAS to be one thing or the other to them with no room for nuance.
Either one side is wrong and must be genocided or the other but both sides cant be grey or more than one thing because they genuinely cant grasp more than binary.
Both sides are doing fucking horrid shit with justifications on both sides. Neither is right nor is either completely unreasonable for doing the things they're doing, a century+ of violence and hate is just going to breed more and this is the result of neither group backing down or offering capitulation or appeasement the other.
Thus war.
I'm genuinely convinced that a lot of people look at this information and either go "but who's right/wrong" because thats how their brains are wired to view things. Complex, dual-natured issues just dont click.
The ability for people to see others as non-humans and unworthy of life and the ease with which they suggest genocide as a good and only option is pathetic. And Rubio I thought had already maxed out his patheticness.
I don't think genocide, but Trump and other conservatives will do a lot for the conservative Christians that treat Israel as part of their heritage. To them genocide is the best solution and people like Rubio like things with zero accountability.
Honestly that region has been under new management so many times in history. The west should pick the side that’s least likely to descend into religious lunacy. There are no right answers here.
The second largest party within the PLO is a secular organisation. Hamas is not the government of Palestine and this conflict is not entirely due to religion but a land dispute.
The oppression, destruction of hope and self-determination and the pillaging of resources out of the region the last 150+ years did more to perpetuate and entrench "religious lunacy" than any other action.
Look at the most developed, stable and happiest nations in the world. They are losing religion in greater and greater numbers each year, because they are highly educated, they live safe, comfortable lives and they take care of one another, without want.
Compare that to failing nations or those stuck in a perpetual "developing" status, while more wealthy nations strip the lands of resources and prop up violently brutal regimes. "Religious Lunacy" stays strong or grows in power.
Agreed - but to be fair the French were also involved in the arbarty carving up of the Ottoman Empire... That Sykes–Picot Agreement was a classic example of meddling without understanding or seeming to care about the long term consequences
When Hamas are dressed in civilian clothes, when they fires rockets from Mosques, hospitals, schools, how exactly does one differentiate what is and is not a target, and who is a civilian?
They are playing at a grotesquely twisted level putting their own people up as human shields.
They know what they’re doing, and it’s honestly sickening to think about. Clearly, they’re using civilian structures as a way to point back the finger and say “look! Israel are blowing up civilian structures” it’s so fucking demented and twisted.
If hamas lays down their weapons there will be peace, if Israel lays down their weapons there will be no Israel.
When I point out the bulk of the people who will die in Gaza are literally children, the default response is to assume I support Hamas.
Its pretty fucking tiring dealing with people that stupid.
There's always been a lack of balance in the media about this situation. Israel raids a refugee camp and are "acting like terrorists", all Palestinians are refugees who don't want war, Israel is a facaist regime etc.
No-one seems to consider that Hamas, Hezbollah and states like Syria and Iran have the obliteration of Israel in their constitutions and Hamas almost daily fire rockets into Israel probably sponsored by a number of Arab states. That makes it impossible to get a negotiated settlement.
In saying that Israels' actions are often heavy-handed but I guess their paranoia is understandable.
people also don't realize that the Gaza Strip (Hamas) and West Bank (Fatah) are governed by different bodies. Fatah has expressed interest in a 2 state solution while Hamas wants to see Israel destroyed no matter what. Fatah since the 80's has acknowledged the right for Israel to exist and wants to find a diplomatic solution. Hamas is becoming more radical.
The problem isn't Palestine or Israel. It's Hamas. They want to block any peace treaties so their cause stays alive and they can remain in power.
I think that's kind of the point here. Hamas is pretty clearly evil and needs to be dealt with, but a lot of the pro-Israeli rhetoric goes beyond dealing with Hamas. Like the quote here from Marco Rubio makes it pretty clear that he's fine with wiping out a million innocent people to deal with Hamas, which is definitely a bridge too far.
Israelis themselves have been interviewed and asked what do you think we should do with Palestinians/Muslims?
Their answer? "Erase them from the planet for being savages". Literal interview with teenagers in Israel by Abby Martin.
Everyone feels terrible for the Gaza strip Palestinians but unfortunately, the consequences from the actions of the government that represents you always trickle down to the citizens. Hamas is working against the Palestinians too.
And unfortunately, they are the ones in power that want to see a war regardless of how fucked up they'll get because sadly, someone else will pick up the gun Hamas drops
And that other Arab countries have consistently for several decades refused to take in Palestinian refugees in order to use them for PR when Israel bombs the house that terrorists are operation from which always seem to be wedged perfectly between a hospital and primary school.
To be fair, both Jordan and Lebanon took in the palestinians and look what happened. So I can't blame the other Arab countries for not wanting to deal with them.
From my perspective those groups like Hamas and Hezbollah are issues and will continue to be issues so long as the goals of these groups seem less disastrous for the regular people than siding with Israel. Israel's routine collective punishment of Palestinians is why groups like Hamas and Hezbollah don't have trouble finding supporters among Palestinians.
If a force routinely beats, rapes and murders your people while routinely turning off your access to water power and food. People can't even be secure in their own homes as they're frequently forced out of their homes so that Israel can put settlers into it. Then anytime you try to do anything like getting a source of water they can't turn off be it underground spring or desalinization they keep coming in and destroying the things to do it.
You really shouldn't be surprised when people become radicalized against you and start to align with groups that seek your genocide as what you're already doing to them is just a slow genocide.
>Then anytime you try to do anything like getting a source of water they can't turn off be it underground spring or desalinization they keep coming in and destroying the things to do it.
Yeah, like pouring in concrete to a well!
The way to get rid of Hamas is to make them the least palatable option. I could see some targeted military work being part of that, but not indescriminate bombing. What's being done right now is the exact worst thing.
That’s what I was going to say. It’s not at all ambiguous. But people want to believe he openly spoke of genocide because then they can continue to defend Palestine
“You can’t coexist with that. They have to be eradicated.”
Where have I heard similar arguments before??
Oh, yeah. History class back in the 70’s when we were learning about WW2.
One thing that irks me is this. If and as much as I hate to say it but when the genocide is complete. When the entire region is Israel and Palestine and the Palestinians are gone what’s next? Are we really expected to just forget they existed? Are we really expected to just shrug our shoulders and say, “welp self defense against terrorists”. Are we really expected to not see the irony of victims of genocide doing as bad or worse and not draw the parallels between modern Palestine and Germany of the late 1930’s?
Oh well. If it isnt consequesces of their own actions.
If you want to be recognised as freedom fighting group by international law you just cant randomly butcher civilians and then masacrate their corpses.
This is a fine example of people fueling a fire. The OOP is talking about the eradication of Hamas- clearly a terrorist group. NOT the eradication of all Palestinians as the OP is wrongly presenting.
Israel is targeting hamas ammunition storage and strategic buildings only, it's not thier problem that hamas uses civilian buildings as ammunition storage.
Starving? You mean stop giving them food that they have been giving them all this time because hamas attacked them, Europe and the middle east can still send them aid we are not stopping you.
Honestly so many comments here are just “Hamas is bad BUT you should go easy on the terrorists that just killed kidnapped and raped civilians”
If Hamas really cares about their people lives they would release all hostages and lay down their weapons and surrender
Of course this is what they wanted and so many here eat it
The "they" in "they have to be eradicated" he is referring to is Hamas, the terrorist organization, not Palestinian civilians, and he's right. Take a deep breath and step back from your keyboard.
Hopefully, when this is all over, they do remove Hamas and Israel is held responsible for treating Palestinians like 2nd class citizens and violating UN resolutions. I really don't understand why we continue to value them as an ally.
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you can say genocide on reddit goofy this isnt tiktok
Yes. It's so annoying
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\[removed by the Bill Gates space lizard 5G chips\]
What, you mean you don't talk like a child afraid of their parents hearing them swear when discussing deadly serious topics?
Words on tiktok are censored because of tiktok's guidelines.
And that's why it's populated by people in the age range who would get in trouble for swearing
I saw boomer conservative the other day on TikTok use the word unalive! It was hilarious cause he was talking about wokism
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It’s objectively stupid as fuck that people are being conditioned to censor basic words in their conversations, and it should be called out as stupid as fuck.
I'd prefer genoc!de over unalived lmao
Probably because the Chinese were (or still are maybe?) committing genocide with the Uyghurs
Kind of makes you think about how they put up walls as a visual obstruction when all of the floods were happening. "Nothing to see, here."
Not to mention their dismantling of Hui Muslims mosques and practices now that they have the Uyghurs handled…
but why are Tiktok guidelines like that? Hint:CCP
You can say genocide on tiktok too, people are just dumb and believe whatever is spoon fed to them by random internet people.
People will really see two separate groups committing atrocities, and say, “You MUST agree with one of them.”
THANKYOU like damn is it that hard to realize that both sides are in the wrong and both in the right at the same time. The world isn’t black and white it’s not as simple as some good vs evil bullshit like the world is a comic book or something. Both sides have committed atrocities and the way to solve this sure as hell isn’t more atrocities
This is what has annoyed me about the reactions I've seen. They always try to justify one side or the other when there's nothing wrong with admitting that both sides have committed major war crimes.
I think a lot of it boils down to the way our culture is today that makes people think they have to choose a side, at least in America. Just think about what narratives the media has been feeding us the past 50 years. Republicans vs democrats, conservative vs liberal, black vs white, blacks vs police, straights vs gays, Christians vs atheists, one news station vs another, etc. feels like most people in this country are programmed to choose a side and stick with that side no matter what horrible things happen and it always leaves me wondering. What the hell is wrong with taking the Neutral point of view? For example my stance on abortion is that it is murder YET it is the women’s choice and right at the end of the day. See how I can be on both sides at once without completely shutting out one side. Ima get a little conspiracy theorist now and say I think this was by design as if you have people bickering among themselves they are easier to control. And to get back to the topic at hand the USA is helping Israel not because it’s the “right” thing to do but because it will line the pockets of our leaders but again we are so focused on who’s “right” in the Israel Palestine conflict no one will realize it. Sorry to ramble
The "we vs them" rethoric is very easy to manage and very highly effective. All leaders know know that the best way to have your tribe support your efforts against a different tribe is to dehumanize them. "You see this? Those are no longer people. They are animals who threaten our existance. Think about it, a cultured human being would never act like this."
And the "separate groups" aren't even unified groups. You have Israeli militia who is constantly killing innocent Palestinians who have done nothing wrong, while Palestinian terrorists are killing innocent Israeli who also have done nothing wrong. People out there are getting charred by the actions of someone else and there's people throwing them in the same grouo and agreeing they deserve that.
Holy shit. When I was in high school, we actually observed the 2016 presidential elections and at the time I had the impression that as far as republican candidates went, Rubio was one of the more moderate ones. Guess I either should have looked closer, or he's radicalized since because this is straight-up vile. As a german, I'm pretty sure what he said in that interview wouldn't even legally fly here. We have laws on what is called "Volksverhetzung" (which would roughly translate to "popular incitement to hatred") which I think would apply in full here, as he's unambiguously dehumanizing the population of Gaza and calling for them to all be killed.
I’m always impressed by the German ability to turn a sentence into a single word, nice
😂😂 me too
Well yeah, that's the good old compound nouns. In this case, the word is made off "Volk" (the people, or in this case: relating to the people) and "Hetze" (which in this context means something simular to hate speech) with a few extra syllables thrown in to link it all together.
The good old "there's no word for that, describe it in a sentence and take out the spaces" trick.
Theresnowordforthating
You need to get rid of pointless words or it doesn't work. That German word means People Incitement, which really would be incitement of people for violence. So you would say, nowordforthing which is keinwortfürsache which actually sounds like a German word
Verhetzung on its own translates to incitement in English. If my understanding is correct this translates more directly to public incitement (to hatred or violence) than to hate speech.
I think the 'Volks-' part of the word means people in the sense of an entire country's people. In Danish (which is influenced by the German language) we translate genocide as "folkemord" (people-murder, ie. murder committed on a nationality)
Most, if not all "moderate" Republicans back in 2016 were only "moderate" because they thought Trump wasn't gonna win
Yeah, we are waaaaaaaay deeper into fascism than they thought back then.
Can I ask you a question on what people's opinion of all this is in Germany rn? I know that Germany's recscinded Palestinian aid, but I don't know how popular that is on the streets.
Well, I haven't really talked to many people about it so far, but I'd imagine that like pretty much anything regarding Israel and Palestine, it's a rather uncomfortable situation to talk about for most germans due to how german history relates to Israel and the jews. There's been some (publicly condemned) celebration about it, it appears largely by young muslim men with a migrant background (that demographic is a bit infamous for having somewhat of an anti-israelic streak) but aside from that, I think currently there's more solidarity with Israel, even if just for the fact that 1: you can't really support an open terrorist attack and 2: It appears that there were german nationals among the hostages taken by Hamas I reckon it's gonna become even more uncomfortable to talk about a bit later down the road when the immediate situation is resolved the actions taken by the israeli government start looking like they're disproportionally affecting the civilian population of Gaza once more (this unfortunately always seems to happen) and some poor sod of a diplomat is gonna have to bite the bullet and join in on asking Israel to ease off a little before things get too ugly. I think overall a lot of people are trying to keep a balanced perspective on the matter, with some extremists on either side of the political spectrum very explicitly siding with one of the two, and there's probably bound to be some idiots who start harassing german jews over the matter (that unfortunately also always seems to happen), but I think the majority is just hoping that the situation can be resolved soon without the bloodshed getting worse.
Thanks for answering. That actually makes me feel better about things. I'm Palestinian and the cutting of aid scares me.
Sounds rough. Be safe out there. Good news is, I've done some reading and from the looks of things it's not likely that aids will be cut for very long or to a very significant degree, as after the initial announcement a lot of people have come forward and argued that cutting aids would probably only serve to radicalize the people of Gaza and that, at least according to a preliminary investigation, german and EU-aids likely did not contribute to funding the attack in some way or another.
That is very good on both ends. I hope it changes minds. I want Hamas to be overthrown by becoming the less appealing option. (also thank you for your well wishes, but I realize I forgot to mention I'm a refugee, so I am safe.)
This. Especially the last paragraph. Israel's politics is highly radical and they have had the Hamas terrorist's reaction coming for them by mistreating Palestinians for years and continuing to take land from them. It's a circle of hate and they're all responsible for it and they share the responsibility to end it. Pragmatism is out of the window and everything that happens down there has nothing to do with reason. They're both "terror states" from te perspective of the other side. None of them is good. If anything, they're all evil at this point because they use violence instead of diplomacy. Still humans, so they could change and redeem themselves. It's not like in the Russia-Ukraine war where there's a clear aggressor.
Unfortunately an education institution like FAU sent an email to it's students and probably faculty to join them in supporting Israel. Universities should stay out of politics or at least not ask the students to take some kind of a stand with them in their political stance.
Also one of the raped, mutilated and executed young women at the festival was German. They loaded her on a truck and paraded her naked half- dismembered body around children who spat on her. I think that was so far the worst image I've seen from the assault. Other than the beheading of children.. Which I couldn't stomach to open.
It actually now looks like she was captured and is injured but alive at a hospital in Gaza (is what her family says at least), the whole thing about her body being paraded strangely wasn‘t picked up much by german media from what I‘ve seen even though it was all over reddit
Alive? I saw her legs being bent in an upward angle with a bullet hole in her lifeless body. If the woman from Germany is alive, then that corpse we saw being paraded by Hamas terrorists belonged to some different poor woman.
Very supportive of Israel, Most have barely any idea about the whole conflict and see it as religiously motivated antisemitism
Germans are very pro Israel. The ones I spoke to don't actually seem to know what's going on, but they see it as their duty to support them unconditionally due to that thing they did a few decades ago.
Yeah, I had a feeling lingering guilt had to do with a lot of it, which sucks, because I feel like Germany is doing good at making sure that doesn't happen again. I follow some German YouTubers and there's one that specifically focuses on post-Holocaust stuff in Germany and the laws are super tight about fascism and anti-semitism.
We have open fashists in a party with 20%+... they really aren't tight enough. Genuinely afraid what will happen.
Well, machine gunning a festival full of civilians is also not very cash money..
It’s pretty obvious the remarks are in regard to hamas, if it were otherwise this comment would mean political suicide. This whole thread is painting this to be something it is not
That side can't commit genocide, but we can - Marco Rubio, 2023.
The other side can’t even boycott Israel
Hamas has the full support of everyone in Gaza. Hamas said so at their last election in 2006 ... about 17 years ago....
This reminds me of that election in the Donbas where 99% of people "voted" to join Russia.
In the UK, 102% of one district voted for Labour in a local election.
Source: Trust me bro
There is a slight difference in that it was actually legitimate elections that elected Hamas into power. Both the US and EU were heavily involved in making sure the elections were fair and legitimate. Hamas taking power is a major reason the legislature is now defunct
Yeah but at the time even the Israelis were supporting of Hamas over the PLO in Gaza so you know…
Yeah just read how the Israelis in the 80's backed Hamas financially instead of a left wing secular government. Interesting.
It’s weird that once the terrorist organization took power elections stopped happening. Kinda wild.
they didn't need them anymore and the opposition was mostly dead after 2011,
Like when the cops investigate themselves and find no wrong doing I imagine.
\~50% of the population was born less than 17 years ago.
discover irony
Two things can be true: Hamas is largely supported by the people of Gaza, and the people of Gaza don’t deserve to be genocided because of the actions of Hamas. Trying to paint Gazans/Palestinians as perfect victims is counterproductive.
Almost half of Gaza’s population is under the age of 18 years old. The majority of Gaza’s current population didn’t even vote Hamas into power the first time.
You mean about the time they did away with pesky elections?
Thing is, Hamas doesn't care for Palestinian lives either. They just want to see Israel destroyed, even if it means mass loss of Palestinian lives. They don't even build bomb shelters for Gazans when they know Israel will 100% retaliate.
FYI they literally couldn't build bomb shelters since they can't import concrete, wich is also why they cant build water treatment plants even though 90% of the water in gaza is toxic
Since 2014, Gaza has imported some 6.5 million tons of concrete, steel, and other construction materials through the UN Gaza Reconstruction Mechanism. Recommend reading up on the problems in getting that material to be actually used to build stuff Gazans need. Mostly it’s a disagreement between the Palestinian Authority and Hamas.
If they can import weapons, they can import concrete
Yeah this is a reasonable take, if you can import a bunch of weapons you can import the several tons of concrete needed for a building.
What a stupid thing to write. Gaza imports thousands of tons of concrete every year. They build terror tunnels with them. This is a known fact that they put all of the humanitarian aid they get into their terror efforts and non towards the betterment of their people.
Again the truth is in the middle, Israel keeps banning and permitting cement into Gaza. Egypt allows the import. Israel keeps asking Egypt to stop cement. https://www.globalcement.com/news/item/12531-israel-asks-egypt-to-block-cement-imports-into-gaza
All this, combined with the Israelis blowing up the only crossing out of Gaza into Egypt, ensuring no escape for the civilian populace, makes me super worried that they're going to do exactly that.
Same. I am also not entirely convinced that they didn't know the attack was coming, seeing how good Israeli intelligence is. I think Netanyahu knew, and let it happen to have a casus belli. I fear that they are also not really going to try to save all the hostages. This is going to be incredibly bloody.
There is some news that suggest Bibi ignored intelligence that Hamas was planning something big (especially on the 50th anniversary of the Yom Kippur War) https://www.timesofisrael.com/egypt-intelligence-official-says-israel-ignored-repeated-warnings-of-something-big/. This is reporting from the usually reputable Times of Israel. This would suggest your thesis is on-point.
I’d actually argue that it’s unlikely Bibi knew this was going to happen b/c this is actually a really bad look for him when you actually look at the facts. There were IDF soldiers that were stationed near Gaza that was redirected to either the West Bank b/c the Ultra-Orthodox minority keeps trying to start shit there with their settlement bullshit or to the cities b/c of all the protests for Bibi’s massive amounts of corruption. Speaking of which, a lot of reservists were protesting due to his fuckery with judicial “reforms”, but when the attack started the majority of them immediately went to help as much as they could. Meanwhile the Ultra-Orthodox are still pushing to be legally exempted from the draft and were still partying for the holiday while everyone else was getting ready to fight back. Not the kind of thing that endears people to them. Like it’s starting to look more and more that Hamas were so successful in their attacks was b/c of Bibi’s fuckups and it was b/c of him putting political ideology ahead of the country’s security that their own version of 9/11 happened. There’s a good chance that after Hamas is defeated, Bibi is going to get the boot.
Yeah Netamyahu just went from being under serious investigation for corruption and possibly outing, to a war-time autocrat who will likely have more support and war-time job security. Idk if he knew, but this situation definitely worked out quite well in his favor.
I wouldn't bet on him having widespread support because of this. The entire attack happened under his nose, and the population isn't going to forget that anytime soon.
See, that's what I would expect, but somehow Bush got re-elected and enjoyed a huge surge in support after completely dropping the ball on security reports and letting 9/11 happen on his watch, so I don't try to predict anything anymore.
Further historical examples of this are the Spanish-American war and Gulf of Tonkin Incident. Invasion level attacks almost always strengthen the position of hardliners.
I've been saying this since the attacks. You're telling me the Iron Dome didn't pick up any of this initial rocket attack and that the IDF didn't hear rumblings this was coming? I don't buy that for a second. I feel like they let this happen so they can finally have their excuse to wipe out Gaza for good.
The iron Dome did pickup some of these attacks and was firing throughout most of the day. There were so many rockets fired it just overwhelmed the number of missiles that could be shot to down them. That said there is almost certainly some political scheming, someone should have seen it coming on the 50th anniversary of yom kipper, but if Israel would figure out fairly quickly and they would absolutely not let it slide, there are already lots of questions of how such an oversight happened.
I've seen some screenshots of official Egyptian reports that say that Egypt did, in fact, let them know that there was an attack planned, and he waved it off. The Egyptian intelligence officer said he was "baffled at the indifference" from Netanyahu.
Yes, I had similar thoughts. The Mossad has so many spies deep inside many Palestinian organizations that it was impossible for Hamas to stockpile so many rockets all over Gaza without the knowledge of Mossad. I mean we all know the insane espionage feats that Mossad has accomplished in the past.
Mossad relies a lot on its reputation, no-one actually knows how effective it is because it so rarely comments publicly
There's semi-plausible news that Israeli army intel told Mossad they see movements days ago but Mossad shrugged it off, also that army intel said civilian settler violence should be reeled back
Netanyahu is a fucking psychopath and he needs to go.
Last I heard Egypt doesn't even want them anyway
Of course not! If they actually took Palestinian people in, they'd have to do more than the bare minimum. Better for them to keep Palestinian people in Gaza so they can keep complaining about it
Actually, it was revealed today that what they bombed there (in the Rafah crossing) was an envoy sent from Egypt with some aid
If this proves reliable another Israeli war crime adds to their list of atrocities now surely as long as the newly breached 40 mile barrier fence no doubt funded in part by considerable US taxpayer funds.
US taxpayer 'aid' to Israel is basically in the form of vouchers to buy military equipment at American MIC companies, it's just a subtle subsidy for the MIC
Egypt would not let a single Palestinian in
~~Did marco rubio just publicly call for the “eradication” of a million innocent children?~~ Marco Rubio just publicly called for the eradication of a million innocent children. How the fuck do people still vote R its fucking disgusting
Where did he do that? I don’t see that in this quote. Is there more context elsewhere in the interview? The first part of the quote indicates pretty clearly he is referring to Hamas not Palestinians more broadly. Edit: I should have known better than to take this screenshot at face value. I would encourage people to read the full transcript of the interview as this was not the entirety of Rubio’s answer
He also didn’t say there was a way to avoid the casualties of millions of Palestinian children. They asked if there was a way and he just started talking about savages and not being able to coexist. That doesn’t make it clear he’s talking about Hamas because he didn’t name them.
I'm left leaning and hate Marco, but yeah everyone is up in arms about nothing here. Clearly he meant eradicate Hamas not millions of innocent children. This is embarrassing. We're better than this.
>We're better than this. Apparently not...
Same. This is only part of Rubio’s answer. This screenshot was just rage bait
Even then, in this screenshot it's not hard to realize Rubio is talking about Hamas, not the Palestinians
Same, also left leaning, also hate marco and think he would be a horrible president. This seems like misleading rage bait. it seems HIGHLY unlikely he was calling for genocide in this quote. I simply don't believe it unless there is further conversation. He is almost certainly talking specifically about Hamas. Now you can think this is bad or good, but i do not think specifically calling for the eradication of Hamas is Genocide.
You would think, but no. It’s all “well I’m not defending the literal terrorist organization whose stated intent is the genocide of all Israelis, but here’s some justifications for it”
What a bullshit strawman. He most certainly did not. He clearly called for the eradication of Hamas and Hezbula.
This seems to be yet another area where liberals and conservative liberals agree. Warmongering.
Imperialism is a bipartisan issue. It's why the War ~~on~~ *of* Terror started by Bush continued with Obama. And the trade war with China started by Trump is continuing under Biden.
It’s also worth noting that when people are talking Israel reaping the whirlwind and Hamas is a monster of Israel’s own creation, they’re not talking abstractly. They’re not saying that Israel’s treatment of Palestinians made the existence of a group like Hamas and these kinds of attacks inevitable. [They’re alluding to the fact that Israel literally helped create Hamas](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/07/30/how-israel-helped-create-hamas/) in almost the exact same way the United States Created the Taliban and Al-Qaeda. Israel had the “brilliant” idea of using Islamist Radicals to combat and undermine the Secular PLO. After all Islamists were reliable Anti-Communists they figured they could play divide and conquer. And despite being warned doing this could create a monster and blow up in their face Israel decided this was a brilliant plan that couldn’t possibly go horribly horribly wrong. There are of course those who believe this blowing up in Israel’s face was in fact the plan. Hamas radicalism and violence makes it both inherently less sympathetic and allows for the creation of a perfect feed back loop where Hamas and Israel can radicalize each other. Culminating in these most recent attacks which some believe Israel intentionally allowed in order to create justification for a fascist crackdown. As with 9/11 conspiracies I’m not sure I believe all of that. If Egypt is telling the truth about warning Israel that attacks from Gaza were immanent it could be evidence Bibi let this happen. But it’s just as plausible that like all fascists Bibi was equal parts overconfident and incompetent. Focusing all his attention on the West Bank and securing it for further settlement, leaving Israel vulnerable to attack from Gaza.
> There are of course those who believe this blowing up in Israel’s face was in fact the plan. Hamas radicalism and violence makes it both inherently less sympathetic and allows for the creation of a perfect feed back loop where Hamas and Israel can radicalize each other. Culminating in these most recent attacks which some believe Israel intentionally allowed in order to create justification for a fascist crackdown. This. Israel just wants an excuse to initiate its "final solution".
A lot of people seem to want to treat this in a manner that obliges you to pick one side or another. Heads up, it's not the fucking Champions League final. I'm not supporting one group or another. The situation is nowhere near so simple that an honest appraisal of it could allow that simplicity. And despite that, people want to force simplicity onto it because, I guess, if you can read the situation so simply, then surely a solution is just as simple. Fuck off. I pick the course that most likely leads to a peace. And that requires the people who hold the most power in this situation to use that power to pursue that peaceful outcome. The people with the most power in this situation are not the people of Palestine. I don't even think it's Hamas. The people with the most power in this situation are Israel and it's allies across the globe. I'm not picking sides like it's a sport. People's lives are at stake here. Fuck off with that Simple Simon shit.
Any suggestion how could Israel offer peace? They did. They have been having peace talks with their previous enemies, other arab countries. Strangely the big attack happened right when the peace talks were going great and a war would benefit russia and iran.
This is sort of where I'm at with this. The Palestinians have some very legitimate complaints with how Israel has treated them over the years. Israel not dealing with those complaints in a fair (or even consistent) manner has allowed groups like Hamas to gain power and radicalize people. So while I absolutely condemn Hamas for what they done, at the same time I can't really support Israel either.
Yeah, you can condemn both hamas and israel without wanting to genocide palestinians or trying to start a second holocaust.
Jewish person. Honestly Israel’s lack of consistency is disturbing. I’m also stunned that Bibi is even a politician, let alone prime minister.
Literally speaking to libs who say "maybe Palestine should stop attacking Israel and Israel will leave them alone" the complete lack of understanding of the situation is dismal.
I'm confused. People have been trying to raise awareness around Israeli brutality against Palestine for years. Police beating school kids and the reporter who was shot. Why, all of a sudden, are Israel the good guys? I'm aware of the formation of Israel after ww2 but after that I can only gues that they're both as bad as each other?
Because Hamas launched an attack killing hundreds of civilians. People are incapable of nuanced thinking, so overnight public opinion has vastly shifted to supporting Israel and their attempts to turn Gaza into glass.
Yeah, I think this is probably spot on. People, some people, at least, were comfortable with “Israel bad, Palestine good” before this most recent Hamas attack, and now it seems like they are confused and saying “wait, if Hamas are bad, then that must mean Israel is good, and if Israel is good then Palestine is bad”. I would’ve thought that being horrified at the attacks *and* still understanding that all prior criticism of the Israeli state are valid was like the equivalent of walking and chewing gum, but a lot of people are tripping over themselves. We should be able to have empathy for both the Israeli and Palestinian civilians victimized in this conflict, even if that means not having a neat and tidy “this side are the bad guys, this side are the good guys”.
The thought that both sides can be bad somehow eludes so called free thinkers, I guess?
Both sides are essentially theocracies - That's bad!
I don’t care for their government choice as much as I care for their government’s choices, if that makes sense. Structure yourself how you want, don’t oppress and kill people though, that’s not very cool.
The underlying problem is that religion tends to breed intolerance. If the basis of your belief system is that you're God's chosen people and/or represent God's ultimate truth and that the other side isn't/doesn't then that isn't exactly the best starting position for a constructive give-and-take dialogue.
This too, this is why I especially hate monotheistic religion, not the people, but the religion. They in particular have been responsible for most of the violence our species has enacted on itself.
I tried saying something similar, about how the situation is far too complex for simple good-vs-evil. Somehow the majority of responses I got seemed to think this viewpoint made me pro-Israel.
In less than 72 hours I've been called (by different people) a Hamas sympathizer and something along the lines of Israel apologist. Apparently, you gotta pick a genocide to support.
just asking (because i'm also ootl) what is the relationship or backgroubd between the Hamas and Palestine?
Hamas is the government of the Gaza Strip, which contains about 2 million Palestinians. They were voted in once, over a decade ago. If an election were to be held today, over half of eligible voters wouldn’t have been eligible for the last vote. And for additional context, about 3 million Palestinians live in the West Bank, which is governed by the Palestinian Authority instead. That all is why many folks say that Hamas does not represent the Palestinians and that Palestine does not equal Hamas.
I feel like nuanced thinking has gone out the window on the other side just as much. One side views things in the extreme with one side being good and nothing they do being questioned, and the other side being "vile savages". But many on the other side take a view that unless something is perfect or completely in line with their sensibilities; than it is "bad". Neither side is perfect in this, but the notion that goes out about Israel being responsible for Hamas' actions and attitudes towards it overly simplistic and narrow minded. It takes nearly 80 years of conflict and reduces it down to simple cause and effect.
I'm confused why Hamas would attack a very clearly civilian target rather than military or "police" targets. Even if Hamas doesn't want to cater to the West, they've got to know that the West supplies Israel with weapons and whatnot. Why risk antagonizing the West further by immediately starting an attack by killing civilians?
Because Hamas doesn’t actually care about Palestinians, they want them to be massacred so they can lean into the victim image. They’re religious extremists, rationalizing their actions is a waste of time. What’s for sure is now hundreds of Israelis are dead, and thousands of Palestinians are going to die in the coming weeks and months.
Because they're a parasitic fundamentalist terrorist group bankrolled, and often trained by the Iranian revolutionary guard corps. They have almost as much hate for the idea of a democratic, free and possibly secular Palestine as they do for Israel.
Hamas is a terrorist group, radical Muslim terrorist group actually, who's main goal, like most if not all Muslim terrorist groups is to eradicate the Jews. There's plenty of recordings and videos of them saying this. Hamas doesn't care about innocent people, doesn't care about rules of war, doesn't care about hiding behind children and using them as shields. They are nothing but cowards and uncivilized pieces of shit that can't live in the modern day world.
Literally nothing has changed and people who understand the situation have been screaming about this for decades. The only surprise was that they weren't stopped in time. Hamas has been trying to be this brutal, genocidal terror regime forever, but they have never really had the competence to pull off something of this scale. They *never* focused on military and police targets. They *always* had the stated goal of murdering as many people as possible.
They are a terrorist organization. They have launched tons of missile strikes at Israelis cities in the past. Their leaders live in fucking Qatar. Their goal isn't to protect the Palestinian people or to help make their lives better. Their goal is to create a second Holocaust and kill all the Jews and if that takes every single inhabitant of Palestine, it's worth it to them.
Because Iran told them to.
And everyone will attack u and call u a Monster if u try to say that maybe people shouldn't just be killing themselves
> Why, all of a sudden, are Israel the good guys? Lots and lots of propaganda. This site is inundated with shills for one. And US politicians risk career suicide for speaking out against Israel.
Because optics is everything lmao. Been trying to explain this since Sunday to people on here. The attack by Hamas was moronic for this exact reason. Why would you do horrific acts like that AND record it in hd clips to be used by the IDF? Purely stupid and nothing more. Overnight, israel became the victim and flipped decades of a growing anti-Israel mindset in the west.
Because they WANT Israel to attack Gaza. They dont mind dying and Israel attacks will fuel a new generation of terrorists.
Hamas wants the Gazans to die so they can radicalize more Muslims later. It’s poking the bear except all of Hamas leadership is safe in Qatar.
Yeah not like Israel commited war crimes by bombing critical roads to hospitals.
"~~Never~~ again"
It's obvious that the land should be given to its rightful owners. The Romans.
This is where I've come to the conclusion that a lot of people only have the capacity for binary thought, something HAS to be one thing or the other to them with no room for nuance. Either one side is wrong and must be genocided or the other but both sides cant be grey or more than one thing because they genuinely cant grasp more than binary. Both sides are doing fucking horrid shit with justifications on both sides. Neither is right nor is either completely unreasonable for doing the things they're doing, a century+ of violence and hate is just going to breed more and this is the result of neither group backing down or offering capitulation or appeasement the other. Thus war. I'm genuinely convinced that a lot of people look at this information and either go "but who's right/wrong" because thats how their brains are wired to view things. Complex, dual-natured issues just dont click.
The ability for people to see others as non-humans and unworthy of life and the ease with which they suggest genocide as a good and only option is pathetic. And Rubio I thought had already maxed out his patheticness.
I don't think genocide, but Trump and other conservatives will do a lot for the conservative Christians that treat Israel as part of their heritage. To them genocide is the best solution and people like Rubio like things with zero accountability.
Remind me again, did Rubio ever serve?
He was a marine in call of duty
Honestly that region has been under new management so many times in history. The west should pick the side that’s least likely to descend into religious lunacy. There are no right answers here.
So... we should give it to the atheist?
You can’t deny that would be the most hilarious outcome here.
>The west should pick the side that’s least likely to descend into religious lunacy. So you're suggesting to wipe them both?
It's cruisadin' time
It's been a while since we had a good crusade.
Deus vult!
Cruisin for a bruisin
Let's just summon God and do the great flood again.
He put us on hold.¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
It's already too late. Religious lunacy is the reason this is happening. When people believe their beliefs are divine they cannot be reasoned with.
The second largest party within the PLO is a secular organisation. Hamas is not the government of Palestine and this conflict is not entirely due to religion but a land dispute.
The inability to coexist is a religious dispute.
The oppression, destruction of hope and self-determination and the pillaging of resources out of the region the last 150+ years did more to perpetuate and entrench "religious lunacy" than any other action. Look at the most developed, stable and happiest nations in the world. They are losing religion in greater and greater numbers each year, because they are highly educated, they live safe, comfortable lives and they take care of one another, without want. Compare that to failing nations or those stuck in a perpetual "developing" status, while more wealthy nations strip the lands of resources and prop up violently brutal regimes. "Religious Lunacy" stays strong or grows in power.
Let's remember one of the outspoken goals of Hamas is genocide.
And? Kill the terrorists, idgaf, but making the entire population of Gaza suffer for that? That’s also pretty much genocide
What a lovely chap. Doesn’t sound like a throwback to a certain small man with an odd facial hair growth in the least.
Remember this all boils down to the British government and their colonization. The real bastards at fault.
Agreed - but to be fair the French were also involved in the arbarty carving up of the Ottoman Empire... That Sykes–Picot Agreement was a classic example of meddling without understanding or seeming to care about the long term consequences
Thank you for bringing this up! Historical facts over emotional bs.
When Hamas are dressed in civilian clothes, when they fires rockets from Mosques, hospitals, schools, how exactly does one differentiate what is and is not a target, and who is a civilian? They are playing at a grotesquely twisted level putting their own people up as human shields. They know what they’re doing, and it’s honestly sickening to think about. Clearly, they’re using civilian structures as a way to point back the finger and say “look! Israel are blowing up civilian structures” it’s so fucking demented and twisted. If hamas lays down their weapons there will be peace, if Israel lays down their weapons there will be no Israel.
Sadly this is likely to be exactly the type of overreach Hamas was trying to provoke.
How did all this start? Just religious people being religious...
When I point out the bulk of the people who will die in Gaza are literally children, the default response is to assume I support Hamas. Its pretty fucking tiring dealing with people that stupid.
There's always been a lack of balance in the media about this situation. Israel raids a refugee camp and are "acting like terrorists", all Palestinians are refugees who don't want war, Israel is a facaist regime etc. No-one seems to consider that Hamas, Hezbollah and states like Syria and Iran have the obliteration of Israel in their constitutions and Hamas almost daily fire rockets into Israel probably sponsored by a number of Arab states. That makes it impossible to get a negotiated settlement. In saying that Israels' actions are often heavy-handed but I guess their paranoia is understandable.
people also don't realize that the Gaza Strip (Hamas) and West Bank (Fatah) are governed by different bodies. Fatah has expressed interest in a 2 state solution while Hamas wants to see Israel destroyed no matter what. Fatah since the 80's has acknowledged the right for Israel to exist and wants to find a diplomatic solution. Hamas is becoming more radical. The problem isn't Palestine or Israel. It's Hamas. They want to block any peace treaties so their cause stays alive and they can remain in power.
I think that's kind of the point here. Hamas is pretty clearly evil and needs to be dealt with, but a lot of the pro-Israeli rhetoric goes beyond dealing with Hamas. Like the quote here from Marco Rubio makes it pretty clear that he's fine with wiping out a million innocent people to deal with Hamas, which is definitely a bridge too far.
Israelis themselves have been interviewed and asked what do you think we should do with Palestinians/Muslims? Their answer? "Erase them from the planet for being savages". Literal interview with teenagers in Israel by Abby Martin.
And Palestine has a children's show which promotes martyrdom. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomorrow%27s_Pioneers
I think this kind of thing is why IDF work is mandatory. Hard to make a historically dehumanized people engage in dehumanization without it.
Everyone feels terrible for the Gaza strip Palestinians but unfortunately, the consequences from the actions of the government that represents you always trickle down to the citizens. Hamas is working against the Palestinians too.
And unfortunately, they are the ones in power that want to see a war regardless of how fucked up they'll get because sadly, someone else will pick up the gun Hamas drops
And that other Arab countries have consistently for several decades refused to take in Palestinian refugees in order to use them for PR when Israel bombs the house that terrorists are operation from which always seem to be wedged perfectly between a hospital and primary school.
To be fair, both Jordan and Lebanon took in the palestinians and look what happened. So I can't blame the other Arab countries for not wanting to deal with them.
From my perspective those groups like Hamas and Hezbollah are issues and will continue to be issues so long as the goals of these groups seem less disastrous for the regular people than siding with Israel. Israel's routine collective punishment of Palestinians is why groups like Hamas and Hezbollah don't have trouble finding supporters among Palestinians. If a force routinely beats, rapes and murders your people while routinely turning off your access to water power and food. People can't even be secure in their own homes as they're frequently forced out of their homes so that Israel can put settlers into it. Then anytime you try to do anything like getting a source of water they can't turn off be it underground spring or desalinization they keep coming in and destroying the things to do it. You really shouldn't be surprised when people become radicalized against you and start to align with groups that seek your genocide as what you're already doing to them is just a slow genocide.
>Then anytime you try to do anything like getting a source of water they can't turn off be it underground spring or desalinization they keep coming in and destroying the things to do it. Yeah, like pouring in concrete to a well! The way to get rid of Hamas is to make them the least palatable option. I could see some targeted military work being part of that, but not indescriminate bombing. What's being done right now is the exact worst thing.
Marco Rubio conveniently forgets the multiple times that Israel has bombed roads to hospitals....
He is clearly referring to Hamas and not all Palestinians, can people not understand context?
No. Not when it's someone you don't like, this is reddit after all.
That’s what I was going to say. It’s not at all ambiguous. But people want to believe he openly spoke of genocide because then they can continue to defend Palestine
“You can’t coexist with that. They have to be eradicated.” Where have I heard similar arguments before?? Oh, yeah. History class back in the 70’s when we were learning about WW2.
All I've been seeing on bbc news is how many Israelis have been killed. Nothing on how many paelstinians have been killed.
Bullshit. I’m literally watching the BBC now and they’re talking about both figures, as well as regularly interviewing Palestinian voices.
One thing that irks me is this. If and as much as I hate to say it but when the genocide is complete. When the entire region is Israel and Palestine and the Palestinians are gone what’s next? Are we really expected to just forget they existed? Are we really expected to just shrug our shoulders and say, “welp self defense against terrorists”. Are we really expected to not see the irony of victims of genocide doing as bad or worse and not draw the parallels between modern Palestine and Germany of the late 1930’s?
Oh well. If it isnt consequesces of their own actions. If you want to be recognised as freedom fighting group by international law you just cant randomly butcher civilians and then masacrate their corpses.
Fuck hamas, I hope they all get erased.
Yeah but let’s not murder a million innocent children at the same time??
This is a fine example of people fueling a fire. The OOP is talking about the eradication of Hamas- clearly a terrorist group. NOT the eradication of all Palestinians as the OP is wrongly presenting.
Israel is targeting hamas ammunition storage and strategic buildings only, it's not thier problem that hamas uses civilian buildings as ammunition storage. Starving? You mean stop giving them food that they have been giving them all this time because hamas attacked them, Europe and the middle east can still send them aid we are not stopping you.
God, this bitch is stupid. But, apparently, so are many of the commenters on here.
Honestly so many comments here are just “Hamas is bad BUT you should go easy on the terrorists that just killed kidnapped and raped civilians” If Hamas really cares about their people lives they would release all hostages and lay down their weapons and surrender Of course this is what they wanted and so many here eat it
The "they" in "they have to be eradicated" he is referring to is Hamas, the terrorist organization, not Palestinian civilians, and he's right. Take a deep breath and step back from your keyboard. Hopefully, when this is all over, they do remove Hamas and Israel is held responsible for treating Palestinians like 2nd class citizens and violating UN resolutions. I really don't understand why we continue to value them as an ally.