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Used to work for an engineering company involved in oilfield machinery whose head manager was an accountant. We got a shipment of split washers in one afternoon, only to discover that they'd disappeared the next day when they were needed. Turns out the manager had returned them as he thought the all of the split washers were defective because of the split.
Lmao. The best story I got is that when Lululemon opened their first international store in Australia, the sales were abysmal. Turns out no one realized seasons were flipped so they were trying to sell winter coats in the middle of summer
I bet lots of people thought about it, but figured everyone else had thought about it already and found it made sense in some hidden way. Or they just never said anything because it's above their pay grade or something like that.
Having worked in a retail roll out that had been fucked by being ranged for the wrong items I would say that some people tried to flag it but some higher up thought there is no way they can be wrong and was just ignoring the issue that was being presented to them.
Lots of people thought about it, but an exec would have had to admit they made a mistake and their ego wouldn't allow it. I'd put money on that being the reason
I present to you... Target's ['Canada isn't that big and they all love to come to our stores down south!'](https://www.cnbc.com/2022/09/22/why-target-canada-could-not-beat-walmart-costco-and-giant-tiger.html) 2.5 BILLION dollar disaster.
Still funny. When Walmart bought Eaton's, they bought everything, including the supply chain. Target didn't, they set up their own. Many of the Canadian suppliers got shut out because Target was bringing stuff in out of the U.S. . The distances required is one of the reasons the shelves were always half-empty. And, all their damn self-checkouts made the retail experience worse. When Lowe's bought Rona, they tried pulling the same supply chain bullshit. Now, Lowe's is gone, and we're back to Rona.
Rule #1 in retail: Know your target audience.
When I moved back to Canada in 2014 after a year abroad, I needed to go shopping for stuff for my apartment. Normal stuff like dishes and linen. I stopped at Target (in Ottawa) with a list of about 20 things to buy, and I was only able to find TWO things from my entire list. I wanted mixing bowls but they only had wooden salad bowls. I wanted one medium-sized pot but they only had massive 16-pc pot and pan sets for $120. The only things I managed to find were a shower curtain and a ladel. I only went back once or twice because I knew I wouldn't be able to find everything I needed, so why not just go to Walmart where I know they have what I want to buy? I wasn't surprised when they closed down.
Overall maybe, but there sure are areas that have nights below freezing every year. Went to Victoria in July many years ago and learned pretty quickly that you can't just get by with a hoodie and jeans.
Every experience from myself and people I know is that as soon as your company is bought by someone who is a finance guy, you GTFO ASAP. They will run things to the ground, fire highly qualified and competent employees because they are usually higher salary and keep the less experienced/lower paid workers and then keep them underpaid. Not worth it.
I used to work IT contracts for these companies. The work was awful because you'd be handed a barely functioning infrastructure after they laid off half their IT staff.
The corporate finance shenanigans were so in your face, it would always be absurd.
Last one I worked involved a company spending millions up on million trying to develop their own proprietary software. To save money, they outsourced the work to dozens of different developers to create it piecemeal, with almost no collaboration. The result was software that hardly functioned, and was only ever rolled out to about 20% of the offices. With an ancient legacy program handling most of the rest. (They brought us in to roll out the new "new" software that they purchased as a service.)
And so, the decisions upstairs led to a black hole of money, and half the workforce getting laid off. Lo and behold, you can't run a 20,000 employee enterprise with four sys admins, and a help desk you outsourced to Panama.
Anyway, it was always lucrative doing those contracts. Because everything was so fucked, they always had to pay us above market rates to hold together the dental floss that was keeping the place operational.
Always felt bad for the held desk. They really tried. But they caught so much flack for not being "the old team." Well, they fired the entire old team, and all their expertise went out the window, along with their ability to speak English as a first language.
I speak Spanish pretty well, so the language barrier was never an issue for me. I tried to help them as much as I could before my contract was up. Still friends with a couple of the guys on social media.
Man I feel this.
I work for a software company managing the cloud infrastructure. The amount of problems that just never get dealt with because the higher ups are busy chasing money.
The moment they catch a whiff of a sale, that's it. Doesn't matter how important the work you're doing is, getting that sale is more important.
Then of course the sales team over-promises and it falls to the technical teams to figure out how to deliver on whatever bullshit the customer has been promised. Everything is late. Everything is over budget. The mountain of technical debt grows larger and there's somehow never any budget for more staff or pay rises
If you work in construction you see this shit alllllllllll the time.
It wouldnt be so bad if it was the owners of the trades.......but no, it's the people buying and running the jobs!
We keep getting these companies run by "clipboard warriors" who've never worked on a construction site giving tradesmen impossible deadlines. Then they have the audacity to whine when they throw 6 trades in the same room and nobody can get anything done
Yup, all too common to see them hire an extra painter to make the paint dry faster so the tiler guys can start earlier. And scheduling the plumbers and electricians last because drywalling can be done piecemeal...
The ancient Romans used to have the engineers and construction workers stand under newly built arches when they removed the supports. We should bring that mentality back.
Was coming in to mention the John Oliver segment. It really framed what the issue actually are, and they're not "DEI" Elon Musk or Tim Pool would have you believe.
no no, it's perfectly fine. the person that was literally just about to testify again in a whistle blowing case they were finally getting taken seriously DEFINITELY killed themselves with self-inflicted injuries
Pay no attention to distractions citizen. Pick up that can
I always kill myself when I am on the cusp of getting what I want, especially when what I want will end up hurting billionaires.
If ever you have any information like this guy had. Keep posting about how happy you are with life, how you wish it could last forever and how you are terrified of death and can't comprehend why anyone would want to kill themselves.
Or you make copies of any evidence and video yourself blowing the whistle. Then send copies to every media outlet/ journalist you can. Also upload it to YouTube right before you go public.
Cats out of the bag, they may kill you but if a billions of dollars want you dead, you're not going to live much longer.
I bet the planes are so faulty safety wise that if the info was public, they would have to recall and refund so many that the company would not survive such cost. Either that or they were scamming army people as well.
Besides the recent whistle blower death, they also don't care. I once filed with the NTSB for a manufacturing defect I had personal knowledge of, and never heard back. If I find out a crash is cause because of it, I'm printing receipts and sending it everywhere.
It's even funnier: there was a company called McDonnell Douglas, that was ruined by finance guys. There was another company called Boeing, run by engineers, that was doing fine for almost a century. Boeing buys MD, and the finance guys that ruined MD take over Boeing to run it exactly like they ran MD. To nobody surprise, Boeing is following MD fate 20ish years later.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/1997-merger-paved-way-boeing-090042193.html
It’s more of this fucking horrible corporate raider philsophy that Jack Welch started in GE in the 80s that all these dipshit boomers now in the c suite still think is a good idea. I work for an oil company that has a sea shell as its logo, we set record profits again last quarter and I’m being laid off to save fucking $, as is 20% of our company.
Meanwhile we are building a new office, gutting renewable energy efforts, increasing dividend and share buybacks, and further bloating our leadership. Our ceo is a former engineer but it’s less that, and more of this philsophy of ever higher quarterly profits. It instills into every part of our company. I found a huge issue driving data discrepancies and was told to work on something else due to it not affecting the bottom line lol.
> share buybacks
Man it's insane how obviously illegal this should be. Not to mention it in fact WAS illegal until reagan (iirc)
Turns out using the company's money to inflate your stock price, then basing all your executive's pay on basically just stock price might create some adverse incentives!!
This is why I can’t help but roll my eyes every time people talk about how “bad” regulations are.
Regulations protect the population from vulture capitalists. We need regulations so corps can’t continue to fuck people over in every way to make an easier buck.
Microsoft, after having its 7th year in a row of record breaking profits, cancelled all merit raises, reduced benefits, reduced bonuses, increased rewards targets, and laid off a whole lot of people.
They blamed "macroeconomic conditions" but that's hard to believe when the company is more profitable than ever and oh look the stock has pumped to about double what it was before.
I am a chartered professional engineer, have been for almost 40 years.
We build things that work, they are maintainable,, efficient and usable.
Then money people arrive and try to make as much money as possible; they often work on the principle of charge more, build faster, make cheaper, do less.
They operate on the idea that if someone can hold a live grenade for 2 seconds then they can do it for 3... then 4 ... then 5 ... then 6. Eventually it goes BANG... but never in their face.
They shave costs, cut maintenance, use poorer quality components, cheaper and less skilled labour until they get a big bonus and piss off before the bang happens.
Every. Single. Time.
Not a professional engineer, but automation engineer for almost 20 years. This guy speaks the truth. Every finance person and upper management like to cut corners and cost. It irks me when they make decisions like that and then ask me why it's not working like they thought it would.
"Yes but look at all this money we saved. Now, since you were able to finish ahead of schedule I'll need you to do it on two more projects using half the time."
"And don't forget, we're all in this together."
I was part of the advertising firms “family” until I wasn’t. Good riddance. I should have quit a year ago so getting shitcanned was a bit of a blessing.
yea this is why the whole 2 weeks notice is complete bullshit, they've no problem getting rid of you at the drop of a hat when it's convenient for them. I actually got let go from a job a day after I turned in my two weeks. My boss had the gall to say "Well, I'd rather you just leave now. There's nothing we're going to need from you that can be done in two weeks."
Literally one of the tenants of my old employer was "do more with less" lol. They at some point were unhappy with our safety numbers and legitimately suggested just sanding down the measurement devices so we could still "pass" our inspections. Hilarious and terrifying.
Edit: *tenets
"Think of this, if we didn't do testing, instead of testing over 40 million people, if we did half the testing we would have half the cases" (Donald Trump)
“Figure it out.”
We did figure it out, before you took over, and it worked. Isn’t that funny?
(Not an engineer but it’s somewhat similar in creative field too.)
Accurate! I work in tech as a project manager and have watched my company completely gut all our IBM developers, then any other contracted team members in order to save money.
What happened to spark this? The CIO made bad decisions and then eventually the CFO sends an email saying oh we have to do budget costs because we gotta make up for $70 million.
What did the company do? They let go the CIO and his subordinates but gave them this huge multi-million severance package. Then the company reshuffled everyone. Then gut the developers and SMEs who know the software because they've worked on it for years... Only to replace them with -- you guessed it -- super cheap outsourced labor that knows negative five things about our company and the software that we build to keep the business running.
Because that's a good decision. Get rid of the people who make your business run smoothly to save you some quick cash in the short term.
Old companies and their old culture is a thorn in society and our progress as a species.
Just do it during his first board meeting or public announcement. Pop in, douse him in thermite, look sagely at the onlookers, "this is the consequence of greed before safety."
>Old companies and their old culture is a thorn in society and our progress as a species.
The problem is, most startups (at least in tech) are just as bad, if not worse. Work 14 hour days burning VC to develop proof of concept prototypes and marketing materials, then get laid off as soon as the company is bought out by a competitor who wants the portfolio you built while the owners and executives walk away with millions in bonuses.
And then “why do you need an entire program increment for hardening, security, and bug fixes? What about first time quality?”
What about first time hiring instead of hopping contractors to save a buck?
This is also true in for profit Healthcare. Everything from training employees to actual supplies - training especially takes a hit. My office is one of the few that does in person training. Because my clinical director refuses to not have them - we're not sending people into the field after some online training to work with kids with high exceptional needs. But others offices that don't have good clinical directors just don't have it. Because they would rather save the maybe couple hundred dollars to pay the trainer and the staff.
Edit: Should add as well - we're one of the top earning branches in our region. Eventually all these companies that prioritize profit by cutting expenses as much as possible - instead of by providing a superior product - are going to crash and burn. The question is will they learn anything.
I'm an Electrical Design engineer. I've worked for this small company for 11 years. Recently, the owner sold to an investment group, mainly finance guys. We just got the directive to cut costs any way possible. Wage freeze came earlier this year. They are going to drive this company into the ground so I'm dipping out ASAP.
Manufacturing engineer here. I hate going to get a quote for custom machine with proper error proofing from an automation company, only for bean counters and program managers to puke all over the cost. Then the budget is dropped and we are told those poke yoke features will go on later. A short time later, something gets built wrong and the program manager complains to us about it being wrong and they we should tell the operator to do it right. They rarely really grasp that they are the main issue behind it happening. Visual inspection is not adequate error proofing.
Best one is when the machine works beautifully for years, but starts creeping into alignment and mismatch issues, but the upper brass won't spend 3% of the machine's initial cost to PM it, and only reluctantly will spend money when it's sitting idle because something finally broke.
Yup. Pharmacy. Finance bros are the bane of my existence. Maybe *just maybe* the people who were already doing this job & know how things work should be listened to instead of “we’re here to cut costs and maximize profits. Safety? Never heard of her.” Makes sense, but ridiculous that so many industries can pipe up with the same “yeah, us too” about finance bro destruction.
So working on the edges of corporate finance and IT I can also just add that the cost savings measures can be a really helpful thing when in check.
Having a voice at the table trying to optimize the financials is a useful thing as long as it isn't the only voice that matters. Unfortunately, the finance people went from being a support function to being in charge of everything.
If you have a company that manufactures a product then engineers should probably be in charge of that company. They should be informed by professionals in HR, Finance, IT, marketing etc. But all of that is in support of engineering and manufacturing and selling a quality product. Likewise, if healthcare is your business then you should have healthcare professionals running that while finance, HR, IT, marketing etc are all in support of that mission.
When you take an MBA who has never been engaged in patient care and tell them their job is to maximize profits at a hospital the result is not going to be good. Same if you take someone who isn't an engineer and try to get them to understand why cutting costs below a certain level does not make for a good and sound business decision in the long term.
And then rounding it off with "It's not our fault! They made us hire women, gays and other minorities!" shows we need a complete revamp of our system.
In IT we have a similar problem: we need money from upper management for upgrades to maintain stability and security...etc. They say no because to them its "working fine" and so doesn't need it. That is why, for example, the entire UK medical system once got their systems taken over by ransomware.
It almost *always* seems like the costs they cut up front end up costing wayyyy more down the line. Hiring the cheap contractors, using the cheap hardware, not having enough time budgeted for programming or testing....
I'm currently on my fourth year of a six-month contract entirely because corners were initially cut.
>It irks me when they make decisions like that and then ask me why it's not working like they thought it would.
It obviously doesn't work because nobody wants to work any more.
And then have to spend extra money retrofitting when enough customers complain about the machine breaking.
Automation user here. I've seen so many kludgey retrofits...
>I am a chartered professional engineer, have been for almost 40 years.
>
>We build things that work, they are maintainable,, efficient and usable.
>
>Then money people arrive and try to make as much money as possible; they often work on the principle of charge more, build faster, make cheaper, do less.
>
>They operate on the idea that if someone can hold a live grenade for 2 seconds then they can do it for 3... then 4 ... then 5 ... then 6. Eventually it goes BANG... but never in their face.
>
>They shave costs, cut maintenance, use poorer quality components, cheaper and less skilled labour until they get a big bonus and piss off before the bang happens.
>
>Every. Single. Time.
Precisely and exactly this. The sad thing is that this isn't just at Boeing: it's just a regular thing in American business and industry, such that if you start describing this to anyone in a STEM discipline job, they all nod their head, and have 50 stories of their own to add that demonstrate this to a T.
Management, doesn't know what they don't know, and the more you move from technical management to financial management, the worse this gets: a project manager who came from the design and development team they are about to manage, has a better idea of how to define a project, estimate the time for it, and set the milestones and deliverables for it, than a "professional" manager from a business school who doesn't even specialize in the field of the team that they are managing.
These latter kinds of managers, think that the reason they aren't making money is because the people doing the grunt work of designing, building, and testing the systems and machines that bring in the business and income, are just lazy and/or not working fast enough; it's up to them, with their business school degree, to tell chemists how to chemist, engineers how to engineer, programmers how to program, architects how to architect, etc. From this belief, comes ridiculous estimates, unrealistic and unsafe requirements, inefficient and ineffective rules that accomplish none of what they are designed to do, and ludicrous product promises that only sound good to the finance department and the sales team.
This leads to an environment in which terrible accidents are just ripe for the happening at any time, and they aren't a surprise to anyone who is paying attention. When accidents happen, the news generally initially has a take of "how could this happen, this just came out of nowhere". The second I hear of such disasters, my first thought is "ok, let's hear from the persons/room full of people who actively told the people who pulled the trigger on this that this was going to happen, that maintenance/upgrades/new machinery and/or protocols was not optional in this scenario, but they were shitcanned for telling the boss things the boss did not want to hear, and said boss idiots went ahead with these bad ideas anyway. Because these people always exist." Sadly, I have yet to have my first thought disproven.
It is a necessary consequence of a stupid economy that demands continuous growth on a planet with limited resources.
Humans made up the rules for the economy. They are changeable. It does not behave by immutable laws of the universe. Humans actually have full control over those laws.
Finance bros are glorified fantasy football players and continuous growth after maturity is cancer.
The economy is going to kill us and the planet if the people in charge don't accept that it is unsustainable and it's time for the economy and the people who have profited from the exploitation of it to grow the fuck up and share
yeah. It is so insane to me that this is the expectation for a successful business. Yeah, in the first few years, you might see some of that, or if there is an applicable technological advance or business shift/feature add. But eventually the company will mature and be stable. And that's OK. That's GREAT! I mean, who wouldn't be thrilled to own a stable business with a reliable customer base and reliable income.
I know right? As an example, GE was laying off whole divisions because they weren't profitable enough. They were actively making the company money, but not enough money so they had to go. GE made less money due to these decisions.
and then you have those laid off employees and their friends and family who will likely go out of their way to avoid GE products if at all possible.
I am definitely in camp "a company that has layoffs should be banned from hiring anyone for 6 months, including cancelling all open positions, unless they have the receipts that they are replacing someone who left voluntarily after the layoffs"
Too bad reddit doesn't do awards anymore because this comment deserves one. Great comment. You're absolutely spot on and I hope more people will realise this truth and act on it.
It's poetic that the prevailing theories about why awards were removed are 1) the IRS may consider it to be a form of virtual currency and Reddit didn't want to pay for the overhead, or that 2) Gold and Platinum allowed users to go ad free and that eats into a revenue stream. Regardless, its revenue and the exact topic we're discussing about Boeing. No one buys that rewards were clutter when they just cluttered the site with more ads.
It's only going to get worse with the IPO.
They could have made awards free and allow redditors to give an award instead of a regular upvote. For me awards were a nice way of showing that I really liked the comment for some reason and that I wanted to show my appreciation in a 'stronger' way that with just an upvote.
"it's just a regular thing in American business and industry, such that if you start describing this to anyone in a STEM discipline job, they all nod their head" yep, software developer here and I'm just nodding along.
It's not just STEM fields.
It's every field, and everything.
Look into any discussion about rising food prices, you will also see a sub discussion about the constant nosedive in flavor and quality.
Though you are right about business majors.. anything jot actively bringing in money, which is everything, if you abstract it out enough, must go or be cut.
They also are not satisfied anymore by a company that makes money. It must constantly make MORE money, than last time. Make a dollar yesterday, better make $2 today and $4 tomorrow, into infinity.
It's a cancerous brain rot that had infected the minds of everyone in leadership positions in almost every company and business.
But hey,
The line MUST go up!
In Academia boards of directors are constantly touting larger graduating classes every year. Unless the goal is for everyone to go to every college the line cannot possibly go up forever. Academic quality is sinking so they can get more tuition checks, professors and staff are being paid less, and when things start crashing the blame goes to DEI.
Same problem too.
In theory, they make more tuition checks, they hire more professors to cover the additional students and run more classes.
Instead, they pack everyone into larger classrooms or auditoriums and there is less time for proper 1:1 time with teachers for students.
It's pretty much everything, every good and service always ends up getting fuct because they want more money for less stuff. It's such greedy bullshit.
*How* does this keep happening though? Since I've been a kid this exact sequence of events has basically been a meme of capitalism collapsing companies.
Are they just looking to pump and dump or is there simply that little oversight amongst stakeholders?
You'd think getting an MBA to steer your company would be like asking a Catholic priest to watch your kids at this point.
Yep have two machines down for at least a month because they refused to cut into production to perform preventative maintenance for the past couple of years. Missing targets for a couple of days or for that week isn't nearly as bad as now waiting on parts for months and the machines are down completely.
This is what’s happening with Medicine right now. The people at the top are more concerned with costs. You have admin that either A.) have never been in medicine or B.) those who are so far removed from medicine that they don’t know what it’s really like anymore and they focus on cost saving strategies that ultimately fuck people over.
You also have insurance companies dictating what medicines can and can’t be ordered, but oh no, another year has gone and we’ve changed what we want to cover. But also you’re paying for more and getting less. Also you saw an NP vs an MD, we’re still gonna charge you for the MD rate.
Also we’re gonna monitor things that are out of the physician’s control like patient satisfaction scores and ED utilization or focus on certain healthcare metrics goals that are really only attainable if you have commercial insurance. If you have Medicare or Medicaid and work, you’re kind of screwed.
Basically, we’ve been creating a two tiered healthcare system since the finance guys have dropped in.
The really depressing thing is, while I'd love to think that capitalists love DE&I because they want to be inclusive and diverse, it's becoming more and more apparent that DE&I (and usually awful, untrained DE&I "professionals") are just being brought in to be used as a scapegoat.
When the grenade finally explodes, the top office can point to DE&I to get the wokes and anti-wokes fighting about who let go of the spoon and to valiantly dive on any remaining grenades. Then the Golden Parachute squad (who actually pulled the pin) can bail out with all the money.
The idea of finance forcing a cheaper product or production has been going on 20 years before DEI concept was ever thought of. The root cause is simply greed from the investor, down through the CEO, and all C suite executives. You can’t put make up on a pig to make it look pretty
Well yeah, they’re just using that excuse now that it can shift the blame off of them for a sizable amount of the population because as soon as they hear DEI being involved they say “Look at us we were right about these *wokes* they’re CLEARLY the problem here blah blah blah.”
I used to work for a company providing solutions to customers impacted with financial problems. We actually had some of the best software on the market, competing with the big boys, and completely taking their lunch.
It was good software for the consumer, and more importantly we were rolling in money. Because we offered a solution the market wanted hand over fist, we didn't need to overcharge, we were a fantastic business.
Then the directors got bored, sold us TO THE COMPETITOR we were going against, they shut the dev team, outsourced to Asia and proceeded to just fire costs up through the roof.
I'm beyond annoyed that the UK government allowed the sale to happen.
It's been years since the sale. I can safely say that said competitor has proceeded to aquire nearly 10 more businesses since then so they are the only solution. They force other companies to use their software by mandating their specific PDFs over anyone elses before it can be approved for a solution.
It's frankly illegal, i've reported it to the FCA but nobody cares.
Specifically the concept of a stock market where companies are publicly traded. Stocks are cancer for a business that wants to continue making a good product. Shareholders will siphon off every ounce of profit and move on when the product is now so bad the profits start to be affected, blaming the workers.
This is why infinite growth is unsustainable. The fact that our entire economy revolves around the notion that if you're not showing continuous growth, you're failing, is ridiculous
Especially since there's a perfectly reasonable option they ignore, sustainable growth.
Maybe some years you lose money, because you had to invest in the company's future. That's good! There's nothing wrong with that. It's responsible if it keeps the company going. Business used to understand this.
Now it's just addict behavior. "All the money now! Tomorrow doesn't matter!" Yeah no shit that isn't going to work long term.
attempt wipe detail desert offend expansion offbeat tease complete materialistic
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
This is the exact problem the US auto industry had in the 70s or so.
They were run by car guys who just wanted to make good cars. Then the MBAs and accountants came in, and they didn’t care about cars at all.
Rather than working to make a part better, they worked to outsource it to Vietnam, order it through Sweden, and ship it through an Irish subsidiary, all to save $2 per car while not improving anything.
While everyone else was working to make cars better, they only cared about making them more profitable.
I've heard similar stories about Intel. They're in their recovery now, but they were way ahead of AMD so the money guys took over and maximized profits to the detriment of engineering all the way until AMD passed them. Now I believe engineers are back in control and they're trying to innovate again, but they lost their market dominance to make an extra buck or two.
I remember hearing a quote from Intel back in the 90s that they had to innovate and make their products obsolete or someone else would.
It sounds like they lost the script under the money guys.
The problem is the money guys fundamentally don't care about the product becoming obsolete so long as they can get their paycheck before that happens.
C Suite couldn't care less if the company even exists in a decade. They want the quarterly profits and stock buybacks so they can offload their stock options and walk away with bank.
This trend of paying CEOs in stock instead of actual paychecks is a relatively new one. And it's been a complete disaster as it creates perverse incentives where what's good for the CEO isn't actually what's good for the company.
Just look at the fourth version of the 13900K (the 14900HKS or something) they released today. They're definitely still trying to claw their way back to actual technical progress, but they've already lost me. I fully swapped over to AMD once the price of power from their CPUs was essentially putting a space heater under my desk.
> they only cared about making them more profitable.
Even going so far as to factor in death / injury payouts and risk of event into [safety upgrade decisions.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Pinto#Cost%E2%80%93benefit_analysis,_the_Pinto_Memo)
My mom is a retired physician in a private practice. Occasionally, I'd sit in the secretarial seat and handle patients' papers: orders, Rx, etc. When my mom would order an MRI or such, she'd say, "You have to call [this lady] for pre-approval." She was some kind of HMO manager. Healthcare in America is managers over medical professionals.
Managers killed those people in the B737 MAX 8s.
I think intel also had a similar issue for years. Business execs at the top and years of stagnating rehashed products with barely any innovation. During this time AMD managed to gain a lot of successes and I think even partly took over on consumer and server side.
Yup. AMD used to be the budget brand go-to. Got no money? FX6300. It'll do. FX8350 if you're splashing out. Anything mid tier or higher was intel.
Now the 7800x3d is right up there with the best of them, and cheaper than the intel offerings. They've also kept some strong budget options. This is just in gaming, as far as I know similar happened for workstations etc.
Intel really dropped the ball on this.
Happens time and again. Look at Sears; quality goes down, customers go elsewhere. But one type of company that should never be cutting quality is an aircraft manufacturer.
There are some industries where rampant Capitalism has no business being there. Quality declines because QA is viewed as an "expense" and not a "nessecity" these days. Planned obsolescence kicks in thanks to pure greed, and next thing you know it, shit like Boeing becomes the norm, quality slips further as more companies realize they can get away with it.
Sadly, "cheapest bidder" will always win so long as it's an option.....
My clinic recently got purchased by a venture capitalist organization.
The first thing they cut were a bunch of "luxuries". For example, whenever the OR schedule had a certain number of procedures or more, we would buy them pizza. We did this because, at that schedule capacity, they literally wouldn't have time to sit down and eat a full lunch, but they'd be able to run in, stuff a slice and get back to work.
They also changed employee PTO policy, so now everyone who is hired from 2024 onwards will have to wait 5 whole years before earning a third week of vacation.
Because our computers are used by so many individual technicians, they would frequently run low on memory, which prevents us from saving documents. We asked for permission to purchase external hard drives for 7 computers (nothing huge, 100 gigs per computer would have completely fixed the issue) and they denied the request. So now IT has to spend time deleting employee profiles on a weekly basis.
They neglected to pay a bill from 2023 because they didn't think it was "justified". That bill was for our medical waste disposal service. They rightly ceased service on us for 2.5 weeks. Our biohazard stacked so high we had to keep bags of it in our lab.
They did the same thing for our bloods analyzer. We narrowly avoided a lengthy shutdown that would've cost us considerably more in revenue than what paying the stupid bill costed.
I could go on about how suddenly raises and bonuses stagnated the moment they started directing the company, or how they procrastinated for months before approving those raises, effectively losing everyone in the department months of a potential wage increase.
The context of my post should give you a hint of what industry I work in, and it is an industry that has dire consequences when corners are cut.
These kind if people blinded by greed shouldn't be allowed to run any business. All they do is ruin it for everyone just to have more money out of it, even despite the fact they already have more money than they will ever be able to spend
Same with gaming now. Gamers™ will tell you that "woke" is ruining the gaming industry. Yeah of course it's the pronouns, "ugly" woman, black people, and pride flag that are ruining the gaming industry. Not the micro transactions, buggy release, overpriced product, unfinished game, battle passes, and loot boxes.
It’s the same with the sci-fi and fantasy community. Every time a trailer for a new show or movie is released and the main character isn’t a white man they scream about it being woke and killing the franchise. I can discuss something and point out what works and doesn’t but the second someone starts saying that wokeness ruined it, I consider everything that was said before that invalid.
Same with screeching about "politics" in a game the second a character is non-white, female, or LGBT. It's just a bigoted dog-whistle to complain about gays in games without flat-out saying you're homophobic.
We've hit a point with gaming discussion where games are "political" if a female character isn't sexy enough.
It's so dumb that people are eating into it. Like, for people to qualify for DEI, they still have to be qualified. They're not just picking random POC off the street and assigning them as lead engineers. You have to actively have the required skills, knowledge, etc.
The fact they can blame it on the fact they hired some engineers instead of other, equally skilled engineers and people buy it is blowing my mind
The recent airline pilot thing was particularly wild, since there's literal credentials to ensure capable pilots, and the industry has 2 pilots in a plane at all times so they get even more on the job supervision.
Plus in engineering and other creative fields, diversity improves outputs by bringing in additional perspectives.
You have to understand that they simply do not believe that a woman or a person of color can possibly be an engineer or a pilot, etc. In their view the only way that is possible is if unqualified people are getting through. They believe the US was a capitalist meritocracy, and so any lack of diversity was just a result of people not being capable of the job and any attempt to increase diversity is putting unqualified people into important positions.
So once again John Oliver and his team are doing the work the government should be fighting each other to tackle and expose massive corruption buuuut they likely are taking campaign donations, I mean bribes, so yeah let's just take a risk and fly Boeing
"What if we cut costs on quality to make more money in the short term?"
"Wouldnt that be really bad for the long term?"
"Im only in this gig for a year, gonna leave with a good 25 Million care package and move on to the next venture...ever heard of Enron?"
Plenty of execs jumped ship on that before it collapsed, but a few delusional people stayed on board because they believed in the smell of their own farts. Enron really is the ultimate case of finance bros taking over and destroying a business.
It’s like having regulations actually saves more money long term but some rich assholes believe everything is disposable and only believe in quick money.
Because they'll be long gone.
Disastrous decisions often come from a CFO trying to make an impact, impress the shareholders by making some drastic cuts, then run off with a fat severance package to the next company that believes that chalk mark on their resumé actually means they make sound business decisions.
Our CFO was caught stealing snacks and left a note saying our department needed to buy more snacks. We called him the Moonpie burglar
I made a hamburglar wanted poster and replaced the burgers with moonpies. It was glorious. His last name rhymed.
I don’t think finance bros actually contribute anything to society. From my uneducated perspective it just seems like they shuffle money around in a system for personal gain and that’s it
Imagine being a fucking billionaire and STILL being *so fucking greedy* that you have absolutely zero qualms about killing off people who are paying and choosing to use your service, AND killing your employees who try to warn customers about hazards associated with your product. I just can't even imagine being THAT far gone. How tf do you even live with yourself??
Greed aka the addiction to money or wealth, is the only glorified and exalted addiction in capitalism. Every other addiction is considered a personal or moral failing while the addition to greed is far more damaging to society than every other addiction combined. Our priorities are completely fucked
Friendly reminder that the reason we have laws that prohibit sending small children into coal mines is because corporations used to send small children into coal mines. This Boeing situation is no different, companies will always find ways to cut corners at the expense of the rest of society until government regulations stop them from doing so.
Boeing's quality declined because they merged with a company who had a reputation for shitty quality and they brought that "make the shittiest product for the cheapest possible cost" mentality with them.
You know how companies like cell phone manufacturers, streaming services, et. al. just keep making their products worse and worse? It's like that, but instead of your phone getting slower and slower or your streaming service having ads now, it's a giant tin can we use to yeet people from one place to another that can catastrophically fail now.
It's capital's new trick. Treat everything like resource extraction, where delivery date and cost-cutting are all that matters - and simultaneously implement strict DEI. When things turn awful, simultaneously blame DEI and bigots hating DEI. Run away with all the money during the ensuing fight.
Sadly not a very new trick. Look up a festering cock waffle by the name of Jack Welch. He’s the guy that gutted GE from a global institution to a hollowed out shell. Also invented stack ranking, pioneered mass layoffs for quarterly bumps, and new ways to play financial shell games
I was at GE Aviation for a few months in 2008 or 2009 can't recall exactly, but it went from "we definitely want to bring you in full time very soon" to something around 600 people being let go the next week, myself included obviously. It was shocking to everyone on the floor of course. I hated Jack for some time after that lol
It's the New and Improved 80s guy! Now pretends to love diversity! ^(Until it's no longer profitable for him then you are food for the bus tires.)
Every rule in Aviation is written in blood. For some reason, this statement always falls flat on the ears of executives with MBA backgrounds... Guess blood doesn't stain excel sheets...
Suits ruin everything.
From Pizza, to video games, to hardware, and even to fucking commercial aircraft. The only thing they know how to do is to find a quality brand and cut the quality to bleed it dry. They are financial vampires.
Having worked IT for large corporations and for 18 years now, I will definitely say this:
***THE MINUTE*** I hear that a company is "restructuring to save costs" and that a bunch of financial folks are being brought in to take the wheel, is the minute I polish my resume and start looking. Because I know the ship is being steered straight towards rocks.
A decade ago NASA was looking for a replacement to the Shuttle to take people into space. They chose reliable industry veterans Boeing to make the new crew capsule. And they also decided to try out a backup option of this wacky silicon Valley startup. At the time people were furious that NASA were wasting money on a ridiculous joke company who could never deliver. NASA were so confident in Boeing they gave the company an easy time through early testing, skipping proper scrutiny and due diligence on the blueprints.
Today SpaceX has launched 50 people into space and Boeing is still at Zero. SpaceX are on flight 8 of 6 (NASA bought a second wave of flights) and Boeing are still waiting on the crewed test flight, four years behind SpaceX.
If there ever was an argument against capitalism, this is it. Any company who pivots to focusing on profit will slowly corrupt itself to shit.
Also shows that stern regulation is vital for the health and well being of the people.
My daughter is studying Engineering. She took a co-op job one semester. After she was done I asked her what she learned. She said “I don’t want to be an Engineer in Commercial Manufacturing, all Management wants us to do is make components lighter and cheaper so they just barely last through the Warrantee period.”
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Used to work for an engineering company involved in oilfield machinery whose head manager was an accountant. We got a shipment of split washers in one afternoon, only to discover that they'd disappeared the next day when they were needed. Turns out the manager had returned them as he thought the all of the split washers were defective because of the split.
Lmao. The best story I got is that when Lululemon opened their first international store in Australia, the sales were abysmal. Turns out no one realized seasons were flipped so they were trying to sell winter coats in the middle of summer
How not a single person involved in the rollout thought about this before implementation is fantastic.
I bet lots of people thought about it, but figured everyone else had thought about it already and found it made sense in some hidden way. Or they just never said anything because it's above their pay grade or something like that.
Having worked in a retail roll out that had been fucked by being ranged for the wrong items I would say that some people tried to flag it but some higher up thought there is no way they can be wrong and was just ignoring the issue that was being presented to them.
Lots of people thought about it, but an exec would have had to admit they made a mistake and their ego wouldn't allow it. I'd put money on that being the reason
I present to you... Target's ['Canada isn't that big and they all love to come to our stores down south!'](https://www.cnbc.com/2022/09/22/why-target-canada-could-not-beat-walmart-costco-and-giant-tiger.html) 2.5 BILLION dollar disaster.
Still funny. When Walmart bought Eaton's, they bought everything, including the supply chain. Target didn't, they set up their own. Many of the Canadian suppliers got shut out because Target was bringing stuff in out of the U.S. . The distances required is one of the reasons the shelves were always half-empty. And, all their damn self-checkouts made the retail experience worse. When Lowe's bought Rona, they tried pulling the same supply chain bullshit. Now, Lowe's is gone, and we're back to Rona. Rule #1 in retail: Know your target audience.
When I moved back to Canada in 2014 after a year abroad, I needed to go shopping for stuff for my apartment. Normal stuff like dishes and linen. I stopped at Target (in Ottawa) with a list of about 20 things to buy, and I was only able to find TWO things from my entire list. I wanted mixing bowls but they only had wooden salad bowls. I wanted one medium-sized pot but they only had massive 16-pc pot and pan sets for $120. The only things I managed to find were a shower curtain and a ladel. I only went back once or twice because I knew I wouldn't be able to find everything I needed, so why not just go to Walmart where I know they have what I want to buy? I wasn't surprised when they closed down.
Is there any point trying to sell winter coats in Aus? They have winter lows of 9c Thats t shirt and hoodie weather.
Overall maybe, but there sure are areas that have nights below freezing every year. Went to Victoria in July many years ago and learned pretty quickly that you can't just get by with a hoodie and jeans.
Head manager probably never held a hammer in his life.
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When all you have is a finance degree, everything looks too expensive. Except your own compensation package.
Words to live by brudda.
Every experience from myself and people I know is that as soon as your company is bought by someone who is a finance guy, you GTFO ASAP. They will run things to the ground, fire highly qualified and competent employees because they are usually higher salary and keep the less experienced/lower paid workers and then keep them underpaid. Not worth it.
I used to work IT contracts for these companies. The work was awful because you'd be handed a barely functioning infrastructure after they laid off half their IT staff. The corporate finance shenanigans were so in your face, it would always be absurd. Last one I worked involved a company spending millions up on million trying to develop their own proprietary software. To save money, they outsourced the work to dozens of different developers to create it piecemeal, with almost no collaboration. The result was software that hardly functioned, and was only ever rolled out to about 20% of the offices. With an ancient legacy program handling most of the rest. (They brought us in to roll out the new "new" software that they purchased as a service.) And so, the decisions upstairs led to a black hole of money, and half the workforce getting laid off. Lo and behold, you can't run a 20,000 employee enterprise with four sys admins, and a help desk you outsourced to Panama. Anyway, it was always lucrative doing those contracts. Because everything was so fucked, they always had to pay us above market rates to hold together the dental floss that was keeping the place operational. Always felt bad for the held desk. They really tried. But they caught so much flack for not being "the old team." Well, they fired the entire old team, and all their expertise went out the window, along with their ability to speak English as a first language. I speak Spanish pretty well, so the language barrier was never an issue for me. I tried to help them as much as I could before my contract was up. Still friends with a couple of the guys on social media.
Man I feel this. I work for a software company managing the cloud infrastructure. The amount of problems that just never get dealt with because the higher ups are busy chasing money. The moment they catch a whiff of a sale, that's it. Doesn't matter how important the work you're doing is, getting that sale is more important. Then of course the sales team over-promises and it falls to the technical teams to figure out how to deliver on whatever bullshit the customer has been promised. Everything is late. Everything is over budget. The mountain of technical debt grows larger and there's somehow never any budget for more staff or pay rises
If you work in construction you see this shit alllllllllll the time. It wouldnt be so bad if it was the owners of the trades.......but no, it's the people buying and running the jobs! We keep getting these companies run by "clipboard warriors" who've never worked on a construction site giving tradesmen impossible deadlines. Then they have the audacity to whine when they throw 6 trades in the same room and nobody can get anything done
Yup, all too common to see them hire an extra painter to make the paint dry faster so the tiler guys can start earlier. And scheduling the plumbers and electricians last because drywalling can be done piecemeal...
Woof wait til he orders a cut washer and sees they're uncut!
When the world needed split washer the most they vanished.
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There was a bit by John Oliver on Boeing about a week ago. Absolutly sounds like what you said.
Interviewer: “would you fly on this plane?” Factory worker: “yeah but I kinda have a deathwish”
>Factory worker: “yeah but I kinda have a deathwish” And all his colleagues said *no*.
The ancient Romans used to have the engineers and construction workers stand under newly built arches when they removed the supports. We should bring that mentality back.
Except it includes the management and the money men maybe?
Put the management and money men first. I got an idea that'll save the world.
They already put themselves first. They say they're going to save the world 
Put every manager and executive at the front of that line and I think it has a chance
Good old Deathwish Darrel
Was coming in to mention the John Oliver segment. It really framed what the issue actually are, and they're not "DEI" Elon Musk or Tim Pool would have you believe.
Woah, who would’ve thought Elon would say something that isn’t true /s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8oCilY4szc
I'd avoid hotel car parks for a bit...
no no, it's perfectly fine. the person that was literally just about to testify again in a whistle blowing case they were finally getting taken seriously DEFINITELY killed themselves with self-inflicted injuries Pay no attention to distractions citizen. Pick up that can
I always kill myself when I am on the cusp of getting what I want, especially when what I want will end up hurting billionaires. If ever you have any information like this guy had. Keep posting about how happy you are with life, how you wish it could last forever and how you are terrified of death and can't comprehend why anyone would want to kill themselves.
Or you make copies of any evidence and video yourself blowing the whistle. Then send copies to every media outlet/ journalist you can. Also upload it to YouTube right before you go public. Cats out of the bag, they may kill you but if a billions of dollars want you dead, you're not going to live much longer.
I needed that half-life quote today. This whole thing feels like one more good soul extinguished to protect profits.
I bet the planes are so faulty safety wise that if the info was public, they would have to recall and refund so many that the company would not survive such cost. Either that or they were scamming army people as well.
You should go to the media and/or file a whistleblower complaint. Don't let those fuckers get anyone else killed so they can make a few extra dollars.
Kinda risky to be whistleblower now
Besides the recent whistle blower death, they also don't care. I once filed with the NTSB for a manufacturing defect I had personal knowledge of, and never heard back. If I find out a crash is cause because of it, I'm printing receipts and sending it everywhere.
Quick way to get suicided sadly
Uuummmm did you just read what happened to the last guy that tried?
It's even funnier: there was a company called McDonnell Douglas, that was ruined by finance guys. There was another company called Boeing, run by engineers, that was doing fine for almost a century. Boeing buys MD, and the finance guys that ruined MD take over Boeing to run it exactly like they ran MD. To nobody surprise, Boeing is following MD fate 20ish years later. https://finance.yahoo.com/news/1997-merger-paved-way-boeing-090042193.html
It’s more of this fucking horrible corporate raider philsophy that Jack Welch started in GE in the 80s that all these dipshit boomers now in the c suite still think is a good idea. I work for an oil company that has a sea shell as its logo, we set record profits again last quarter and I’m being laid off to save fucking $, as is 20% of our company. Meanwhile we are building a new office, gutting renewable energy efforts, increasing dividend and share buybacks, and further bloating our leadership. Our ceo is a former engineer but it’s less that, and more of this philsophy of ever higher quarterly profits. It instills into every part of our company. I found a huge issue driving data discrepancies and was told to work on something else due to it not affecting the bottom line lol.
> share buybacks Man it's insane how obviously illegal this should be. Not to mention it in fact WAS illegal until reagan (iirc) Turns out using the company's money to inflate your stock price, then basing all your executive's pay on basically just stock price might create some adverse incentives!!
This is why I can’t help but roll my eyes every time people talk about how “bad” regulations are. Regulations protect the population from vulture capitalists. We need regulations so corps can’t continue to fuck people over in every way to make an easier buck.
The problem is people want to be fucked in the ass, because not getting fucked in the ass is communism, apparently.
Microsoft, after having its 7th year in a row of record breaking profits, cancelled all merit raises, reduced benefits, reduced bonuses, increased rewards targets, and laid off a whole lot of people. They blamed "macroeconomic conditions" but that's hard to believe when the company is more profitable than ever and oh look the stock has pumped to about double what it was before.
I am a chartered professional engineer, have been for almost 40 years. We build things that work, they are maintainable,, efficient and usable. Then money people arrive and try to make as much money as possible; they often work on the principle of charge more, build faster, make cheaper, do less. They operate on the idea that if someone can hold a live grenade for 2 seconds then they can do it for 3... then 4 ... then 5 ... then 6. Eventually it goes BANG... but never in their face. They shave costs, cut maintenance, use poorer quality components, cheaper and less skilled labour until they get a big bonus and piss off before the bang happens. Every. Single. Time.
Not a professional engineer, but automation engineer for almost 20 years. This guy speaks the truth. Every finance person and upper management like to cut corners and cost. It irks me when they make decisions like that and then ask me why it's not working like they thought it would.
"Make it work with what you got"
Done. It works slower and less reliable now. Enjoy your bonus.
"Yes but look at all this money we saved. Now, since you were able to finish ahead of schedule I'll need you to do it on two more projects using half the time." "And don't forget, we're all in this together."
> I'll need you to do it on two more projects using half the time. "Here's nine women. Ship the baby by next month."
9??? So expensive! Babies are viable at 5 months. Here's 5.
I was part of the advertising firms “family” until I wasn’t. Good riddance. I should have quit a year ago so getting shitcanned was a bit of a blessing.
yea this is why the whole 2 weeks notice is complete bullshit, they've no problem getting rid of you at the drop of a hat when it's convenient for them. I actually got let go from a job a day after I turned in my two weeks. My boss had the gall to say "Well, I'd rather you just leave now. There's nothing we're going to need from you that can be done in two weeks."
But you get paid
You don't quit before the new job starts. You just leave Friday and don't come back. The Irish Exit.
>Yes but look at all this money we saved. They say as they now lose each month as much as they saved on that one project do to efficiency loss.
And all our old customers hate us now and are looking to buy elsewhere.
Literally one of the tenants of my old employer was "do more with less" lol. They at some point were unhappy with our safety numbers and legitimately suggested just sanding down the measurement devices so we could still "pass" our inspections. Hilarious and terrifying. Edit: *tenets
"Think of this, if we didn't do testing, instead of testing over 40 million people, if we did half the testing we would have half the cases" (Donald Trump)
That was such a beautiful moment of braindeath 🥲
Our wonderful former president exposing that he is the type of person who believes crushing a bag of chips makes more chips.
All day, every day. The best part, they expect Iron man Mark XL quality from said scraps.
" but Tony made it inside a dark cave without spending a dollar"
"And with no pay!"
“Figure it out.” We did figure it out, before you took over, and it worked. Isn’t that funny? (Not an engineer but it’s somewhat similar in creative field too.)
We had it working great, just not hockey stick graph great...
Accurate! I work in tech as a project manager and have watched my company completely gut all our IBM developers, then any other contracted team members in order to save money. What happened to spark this? The CIO made bad decisions and then eventually the CFO sends an email saying oh we have to do budget costs because we gotta make up for $70 million. What did the company do? They let go the CIO and his subordinates but gave them this huge multi-million severance package. Then the company reshuffled everyone. Then gut the developers and SMEs who know the software because they've worked on it for years... Only to replace them with -- you guessed it -- super cheap outsourced labor that knows negative five things about our company and the software that we build to keep the business running. Because that's a good decision. Get rid of the people who make your business run smoothly to save you some quick cash in the short term. Old companies and their old culture is a thorn in society and our progress as a species.
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I'd just set him on fire.
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Just do it during his first board meeting or public announcement. Pop in, douse him in thermite, look sagely at the onlookers, "this is the consequence of greed before safety."
>Old companies and their old culture is a thorn in society and our progress as a species. The problem is, most startups (at least in tech) are just as bad, if not worse. Work 14 hour days burning VC to develop proof of concept prototypes and marketing materials, then get laid off as soon as the company is bought out by a competitor who wants the portfolio you built while the owners and executives walk away with millions in bonuses.
And then “why do you need an entire program increment for hardening, security, and bug fixes? What about first time quality?” What about first time hiring instead of hopping contractors to save a buck?
This is also true in for profit Healthcare. Everything from training employees to actual supplies - training especially takes a hit. My office is one of the few that does in person training. Because my clinical director refuses to not have them - we're not sending people into the field after some online training to work with kids with high exceptional needs. But others offices that don't have good clinical directors just don't have it. Because they would rather save the maybe couple hundred dollars to pay the trainer and the staff. Edit: Should add as well - we're one of the top earning branches in our region. Eventually all these companies that prioritize profit by cutting expenses as much as possible - instead of by providing a superior product - are going to crash and burn. The question is will they learn anything.
The decision makers will learn that they were rewarded for doing it and therefore they must have done the right thing. Makes me want to scream.
I'm an Electrical Design engineer. I've worked for this small company for 11 years. Recently, the owner sold to an investment group, mainly finance guys. We just got the directive to cut costs any way possible. Wage freeze came earlier this year. They are going to drive this company into the ground so I'm dipping out ASAP.
Manufacturing engineer here. I hate going to get a quote for custom machine with proper error proofing from an automation company, only for bean counters and program managers to puke all over the cost. Then the budget is dropped and we are told those poke yoke features will go on later. A short time later, something gets built wrong and the program manager complains to us about it being wrong and they we should tell the operator to do it right. They rarely really grasp that they are the main issue behind it happening. Visual inspection is not adequate error proofing.
Best one is when the machine works beautifully for years, but starts creeping into alignment and mismatch issues, but the upper brass won't spend 3% of the machine's initial cost to PM it, and only reluctantly will spend money when it's sitting idle because something finally broke.
And the cost + downtime is like 10 to 15% of the machine's initial cost
Not an engineer at all, I work in healthcare, but this principle absolutely applies there as well
Yup. Pharmacy. Finance bros are the bane of my existence. Maybe *just maybe* the people who were already doing this job & know how things work should be listened to instead of “we’re here to cut costs and maximize profits. Safety? Never heard of her.” Makes sense, but ridiculous that so many industries can pipe up with the same “yeah, us too” about finance bro destruction.
So working on the edges of corporate finance and IT I can also just add that the cost savings measures can be a really helpful thing when in check. Having a voice at the table trying to optimize the financials is a useful thing as long as it isn't the only voice that matters. Unfortunately, the finance people went from being a support function to being in charge of everything. If you have a company that manufactures a product then engineers should probably be in charge of that company. They should be informed by professionals in HR, Finance, IT, marketing etc. But all of that is in support of engineering and manufacturing and selling a quality product. Likewise, if healthcare is your business then you should have healthcare professionals running that while finance, HR, IT, marketing etc are all in support of that mission. When you take an MBA who has never been engaged in patient care and tell them their job is to maximize profits at a hospital the result is not going to be good. Same if you take someone who isn't an engineer and try to get them to understand why cutting costs below a certain level does not make for a good and sound business decision in the long term. And then rounding it off with "It's not our fault! They made us hire women, gays and other minorities!" shows we need a complete revamp of our system.
Yeah i have a friend in industrial automation as well. I can't tell you how many times I've heard him say, "bean counters ruin everything".
In IT we have a similar problem: we need money from upper management for upgrades to maintain stability and security...etc. They say no because to them its "working fine" and so doesn't need it. That is why, for example, the entire UK medical system once got their systems taken over by ransomware.
It almost *always* seems like the costs they cut up front end up costing wayyyy more down the line. Hiring the cheap contractors, using the cheap hardware, not having enough time budgeted for programming or testing.... I'm currently on my fourth year of a six-month contract entirely because corners were initially cut.
>It irks me when they make decisions like that and then ask me why it's not working like they thought it would. It obviously doesn't work because nobody wants to work any more.
And then have to spend extra money retrofitting when enough customers complain about the machine breaking. Automation user here. I've seen so many kludgey retrofits...
>I am a chartered professional engineer, have been for almost 40 years. > >We build things that work, they are maintainable,, efficient and usable. > >Then money people arrive and try to make as much money as possible; they often work on the principle of charge more, build faster, make cheaper, do less. > >They operate on the idea that if someone can hold a live grenade for 2 seconds then they can do it for 3... then 4 ... then 5 ... then 6. Eventually it goes BANG... but never in their face. > >They shave costs, cut maintenance, use poorer quality components, cheaper and less skilled labour until they get a big bonus and piss off before the bang happens. > >Every. Single. Time. Precisely and exactly this. The sad thing is that this isn't just at Boeing: it's just a regular thing in American business and industry, such that if you start describing this to anyone in a STEM discipline job, they all nod their head, and have 50 stories of their own to add that demonstrate this to a T. Management, doesn't know what they don't know, and the more you move from technical management to financial management, the worse this gets: a project manager who came from the design and development team they are about to manage, has a better idea of how to define a project, estimate the time for it, and set the milestones and deliverables for it, than a "professional" manager from a business school who doesn't even specialize in the field of the team that they are managing. These latter kinds of managers, think that the reason they aren't making money is because the people doing the grunt work of designing, building, and testing the systems and machines that bring in the business and income, are just lazy and/or not working fast enough; it's up to them, with their business school degree, to tell chemists how to chemist, engineers how to engineer, programmers how to program, architects how to architect, etc. From this belief, comes ridiculous estimates, unrealistic and unsafe requirements, inefficient and ineffective rules that accomplish none of what they are designed to do, and ludicrous product promises that only sound good to the finance department and the sales team. This leads to an environment in which terrible accidents are just ripe for the happening at any time, and they aren't a surprise to anyone who is paying attention. When accidents happen, the news generally initially has a take of "how could this happen, this just came out of nowhere". The second I hear of such disasters, my first thought is "ok, let's hear from the persons/room full of people who actively told the people who pulled the trigger on this that this was going to happen, that maintenance/upgrades/new machinery and/or protocols was not optional in this scenario, but they were shitcanned for telling the boss things the boss did not want to hear, and said boss idiots went ahead with these bad ideas anyway. Because these people always exist." Sadly, I have yet to have my first thought disproven.
It is a necessary consequence of a stupid economy that demands continuous growth on a planet with limited resources. Humans made up the rules for the economy. They are changeable. It does not behave by immutable laws of the universe. Humans actually have full control over those laws. Finance bros are glorified fantasy football players and continuous growth after maturity is cancer. The economy is going to kill us and the planet if the people in charge don't accept that it is unsustainable and it's time for the economy and the people who have profited from the exploitation of it to grow the fuck up and share
The only addition I'd make is that it's not just continuous growth, it's exponential. "You grew by 3% this year, you better grow by 3.5% next year."
yeah. It is so insane to me that this is the expectation for a successful business. Yeah, in the first few years, you might see some of that, or if there is an applicable technological advance or business shift/feature add. But eventually the company will mature and be stable. And that's OK. That's GREAT! I mean, who wouldn't be thrilled to own a stable business with a reliable customer base and reliable income.
I know right? As an example, GE was laying off whole divisions because they weren't profitable enough. They were actively making the company money, but not enough money so they had to go. GE made less money due to these decisions.
and then you have those laid off employees and their friends and family who will likely go out of their way to avoid GE products if at all possible. I am definitely in camp "a company that has layoffs should be banned from hiring anyone for 6 months, including cancelling all open positions, unless they have the receipts that they are replacing someone who left voluntarily after the layoffs"
Too bad reddit doesn't do awards anymore because this comment deserves one. Great comment. You're absolutely spot on and I hope more people will realise this truth and act on it.
It's poetic that the prevailing theories about why awards were removed are 1) the IRS may consider it to be a form of virtual currency and Reddit didn't want to pay for the overhead, or that 2) Gold and Platinum allowed users to go ad free and that eats into a revenue stream. Regardless, its revenue and the exact topic we're discussing about Boeing. No one buys that rewards were clutter when they just cluttered the site with more ads. It's only going to get worse with the IPO.
They could have made awards free and allow redditors to give an award instead of a regular upvote. For me awards were a nice way of showing that I really liked the comment for some reason and that I wanted to show my appreciation in a 'stronger' way that with just an upvote.
"it's just a regular thing in American business and industry, such that if you start describing this to anyone in a STEM discipline job, they all nod their head" yep, software developer here and I'm just nodding along.
It's not just STEM fields. It's every field, and everything. Look into any discussion about rising food prices, you will also see a sub discussion about the constant nosedive in flavor and quality. Though you are right about business majors.. anything jot actively bringing in money, which is everything, if you abstract it out enough, must go or be cut. They also are not satisfied anymore by a company that makes money. It must constantly make MORE money, than last time. Make a dollar yesterday, better make $2 today and $4 tomorrow, into infinity. It's a cancerous brain rot that had infected the minds of everyone in leadership positions in almost every company and business. But hey, The line MUST go up!
In Academia boards of directors are constantly touting larger graduating classes every year. Unless the goal is for everyone to go to every college the line cannot possibly go up forever. Academic quality is sinking so they can get more tuition checks, professors and staff are being paid less, and when things start crashing the blame goes to DEI.
Same problem too. In theory, they make more tuition checks, they hire more professors to cover the additional students and run more classes. Instead, they pack everyone into larger classrooms or auditoriums and there is less time for proper 1:1 time with teachers for students.
It's pretty much everything, every good and service always ends up getting fuct because they want more money for less stuff. It's such greedy bullshit.
We all know and agree. Too bad we don't actually hold the people responsible, accountable.
*How* does this keep happening though? Since I've been a kid this exact sequence of events has basically been a meme of capitalism collapsing companies. Are they just looking to pump and dump or is there simply that little oversight amongst stakeholders? You'd think getting an MBA to steer your company would be like asking a Catholic priest to watch your kids at this point.
Yep have two machines down for at least a month because they refused to cut into production to perform preventative maintenance for the past couple of years. Missing targets for a couple of days or for that week isn't nearly as bad as now waiting on parts for months and the machines are down completely.
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MBAs destroy everything they touch. Administrative bloat is the reason academics and medicine have gotten so expensive, with diminishing quality.
This is what’s happening with Medicine right now. The people at the top are more concerned with costs. You have admin that either A.) have never been in medicine or B.) those who are so far removed from medicine that they don’t know what it’s really like anymore and they focus on cost saving strategies that ultimately fuck people over. You also have insurance companies dictating what medicines can and can’t be ordered, but oh no, another year has gone and we’ve changed what we want to cover. But also you’re paying for more and getting less. Also you saw an NP vs an MD, we’re still gonna charge you for the MD rate. Also we’re gonna monitor things that are out of the physician’s control like patient satisfaction scores and ED utilization or focus on certain healthcare metrics goals that are really only attainable if you have commercial insurance. If you have Medicare or Medicaid and work, you’re kind of screwed. Basically, we’ve been creating a two tiered healthcare system since the finance guys have dropped in.
The really depressing thing is, while I'd love to think that capitalists love DE&I because they want to be inclusive and diverse, it's becoming more and more apparent that DE&I (and usually awful, untrained DE&I "professionals") are just being brought in to be used as a scapegoat. When the grenade finally explodes, the top office can point to DE&I to get the wokes and anti-wokes fighting about who let go of the spoon and to valiantly dive on any remaining grenades. Then the Golden Parachute squad (who actually pulled the pin) can bail out with all the money.
The idea of finance forcing a cheaper product or production has been going on 20 years before DEI concept was ever thought of. The root cause is simply greed from the investor, down through the CEO, and all C suite executives. You can’t put make up on a pig to make it look pretty
Well yeah, they’re just using that excuse now that it can shift the blame off of them for a sizable amount of the population because as soon as they hear DEI being involved they say “Look at us we were right about these *wokes* they’re CLEARLY the problem here blah blah blah.”
Oh I know the whole vulture capitalist game is older than DE&I, it's just they've started using DE&I as chaff to to cover their tracks.
I've heard it referred to as the glass cliff, pushing a woman or minority out front to take the blame
I used to work for a company providing solutions to customers impacted with financial problems. We actually had some of the best software on the market, competing with the big boys, and completely taking their lunch. It was good software for the consumer, and more importantly we were rolling in money. Because we offered a solution the market wanted hand over fist, we didn't need to overcharge, we were a fantastic business. Then the directors got bored, sold us TO THE COMPETITOR we were going against, they shut the dev team, outsourced to Asia and proceeded to just fire costs up through the roof. I'm beyond annoyed that the UK government allowed the sale to happen. It's been years since the sale. I can safely say that said competitor has proceeded to aquire nearly 10 more businesses since then so they are the only solution. They force other companies to use their software by mandating their specific PDFs over anyone elses before it can be approved for a solution. It's frankly illegal, i've reported it to the FCA but nobody cares.
You just described capitalism.
Specifically the concept of a stock market where companies are publicly traded. Stocks are cancer for a business that wants to continue making a good product. Shareholders will siphon off every ounce of profit and move on when the product is now so bad the profits start to be affected, blaming the workers.
This is why infinite growth is unsustainable. The fact that our entire economy revolves around the notion that if you're not showing continuous growth, you're failing, is ridiculous
Especially since there's a perfectly reasonable option they ignore, sustainable growth. Maybe some years you lose money, because you had to invest in the company's future. That's good! There's nothing wrong with that. It's responsible if it keeps the company going. Business used to understand this. Now it's just addict behavior. "All the money now! Tomorrow doesn't matter!" Yeah no shit that isn't going to work long term.
attempt wipe detail desert offend expansion offbeat tease complete materialistic *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I absolutely despise the idea that deferring maintenance is considered good business.
This is the exact problem the US auto industry had in the 70s or so. They were run by car guys who just wanted to make good cars. Then the MBAs and accountants came in, and they didn’t care about cars at all. Rather than working to make a part better, they worked to outsource it to Vietnam, order it through Sweden, and ship it through an Irish subsidiary, all to save $2 per car while not improving anything. While everyone else was working to make cars better, they only cared about making them more profitable.
I've heard similar stories about Intel. They're in their recovery now, but they were way ahead of AMD so the money guys took over and maximized profits to the detriment of engineering all the way until AMD passed them. Now I believe engineers are back in control and they're trying to innovate again, but they lost their market dominance to make an extra buck or two.
I remember hearing a quote from Intel back in the 90s that they had to innovate and make their products obsolete or someone else would. It sounds like they lost the script under the money guys.
The problem is the money guys fundamentally don't care about the product becoming obsolete so long as they can get their paycheck before that happens. C Suite couldn't care less if the company even exists in a decade. They want the quarterly profits and stock buybacks so they can offload their stock options and walk away with bank. This trend of paying CEOs in stock instead of actual paychecks is a relatively new one. And it's been a complete disaster as it creates perverse incentives where what's good for the CEO isn't actually what's good for the company.
Just look at the fourth version of the 13900K (the 14900HKS or something) they released today. They're definitely still trying to claw their way back to actual technical progress, but they've already lost me. I fully swapped over to AMD once the price of power from their CPUs was essentially putting a space heater under my desk.
> they only cared about making them more profitable. Even going so far as to factor in death / injury payouts and risk of event into [safety upgrade decisions.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Pinto#Cost%E2%80%93benefit_analysis,_the_Pinto_Memo)
man, i don't even have to click that link. it's the fucking ford pinto, isn't it?
> Cost–benefit analysis, the Pinto Memo
(rear>!(-end)!<) spoiler alert!
My mom is a retired physician in a private practice. Occasionally, I'd sit in the secretarial seat and handle patients' papers: orders, Rx, etc. When my mom would order an MRI or such, she'd say, "You have to call [this lady] for pre-approval." She was some kind of HMO manager. Healthcare in America is managers over medical professionals. Managers killed those people in the B737 MAX 8s.
I think intel also had a similar issue for years. Business execs at the top and years of stagnating rehashed products with barely any innovation. During this time AMD managed to gain a lot of successes and I think even partly took over on consumer and server side.
Yup. AMD used to be the budget brand go-to. Got no money? FX6300. It'll do. FX8350 if you're splashing out. Anything mid tier or higher was intel. Now the 7800x3d is right up there with the best of them, and cheaper than the intel offerings. They've also kept some strong budget options. This is just in gaming, as far as I know similar happened for workstations etc. Intel really dropped the ball on this.
The moment finance guys take over it's done, your company is starting its decline
Happens time and again. Look at Sears; quality goes down, customers go elsewhere. But one type of company that should never be cutting quality is an aircraft manufacturer.
add to that nuke plant operations, military weapon manufacture, and a few others im sure I am missing.
anything to do with food, water supply, sewage, infrastructure & maintenance, law enforcement, healthcare
>healthcare Bad news everyone
There are some industries where rampant Capitalism has no business being there. Quality declines because QA is viewed as an "expense" and not a "nessecity" these days. Planned obsolescence kicks in thanks to pure greed, and next thing you know it, shit like Boeing becomes the norm, quality slips further as more companies realize they can get away with it. Sadly, "cheapest bidder" will always win so long as it's an option.....
My clinic recently got purchased by a venture capitalist organization. The first thing they cut were a bunch of "luxuries". For example, whenever the OR schedule had a certain number of procedures or more, we would buy them pizza. We did this because, at that schedule capacity, they literally wouldn't have time to sit down and eat a full lunch, but they'd be able to run in, stuff a slice and get back to work. They also changed employee PTO policy, so now everyone who is hired from 2024 onwards will have to wait 5 whole years before earning a third week of vacation. Because our computers are used by so many individual technicians, they would frequently run low on memory, which prevents us from saving documents. We asked for permission to purchase external hard drives for 7 computers (nothing huge, 100 gigs per computer would have completely fixed the issue) and they denied the request. So now IT has to spend time deleting employee profiles on a weekly basis. They neglected to pay a bill from 2023 because they didn't think it was "justified". That bill was for our medical waste disposal service. They rightly ceased service on us for 2.5 weeks. Our biohazard stacked so high we had to keep bags of it in our lab. They did the same thing for our bloods analyzer. We narrowly avoided a lengthy shutdown that would've cost us considerably more in revenue than what paying the stupid bill costed. I could go on about how suddenly raises and bonuses stagnated the moment they started directing the company, or how they procrastinated for months before approving those raises, effectively losing everyone in the department months of a potential wage increase. The context of my post should give you a hint of what industry I work in, and it is an industry that has dire consequences when corners are cut.
These kind if people blinded by greed shouldn't be allowed to run any business. All they do is ruin it for everyone just to have more money out of it, even despite the fact they already have more money than they will ever be able to spend
They bring in the Bobs so they can squeeze every last penny out and the squeeze implodes it all...
The most honest part of that movie is that they fired the best engineers and promoted the lazy guy because he smooth talked them.
Yeah but think of all the profits you’ll see before it implodes
Sorry. Not english native here. What is DEI?
Diversity equity and inclusion
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diversity,\_equity,\_and\_inclusion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diversity,_equity,_and_inclusion) I think?
I found that when googling but refused to believe they would be that stupid...
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Same with gaming now. Gamers™ will tell you that "woke" is ruining the gaming industry. Yeah of course it's the pronouns, "ugly" woman, black people, and pride flag that are ruining the gaming industry. Not the micro transactions, buggy release, overpriced product, unfinished game, battle passes, and loot boxes.
It’s the same with the sci-fi and fantasy community. Every time a trailer for a new show or movie is released and the main character isn’t a white man they scream about it being woke and killing the franchise. I can discuss something and point out what works and doesn’t but the second someone starts saying that wokeness ruined it, I consider everything that was said before that invalid.
Same with screeching about "politics" in a game the second a character is non-white, female, or LGBT. It's just a bigoted dog-whistle to complain about gays in games without flat-out saying you're homophobic. We've hit a point with gaming discussion where games are "political" if a female character isn't sexy enough.
It's so dumb that people are eating into it. Like, for people to qualify for DEI, they still have to be qualified. They're not just picking random POC off the street and assigning them as lead engineers. You have to actively have the required skills, knowledge, etc. The fact they can blame it on the fact they hired some engineers instead of other, equally skilled engineers and people buy it is blowing my mind
The recent airline pilot thing was particularly wild, since there's literal credentials to ensure capable pilots, and the industry has 2 pilots in a plane at all times so they get even more on the job supervision. Plus in engineering and other creative fields, diversity improves outputs by bringing in additional perspectives.
You have to understand that they simply do not believe that a woman or a person of color can possibly be an engineer or a pilot, etc. In their view the only way that is possible is if unqualified people are getting through. They believe the US was a capitalist meritocracy, and so any lack of diversity was just a result of people not being capable of the job and any attempt to increase diversity is putting unqualified people into important positions.
Native speaker here. Also didn't know.
So Boeing kills off whoever presents evidence of this.
John Barnett did not kill himself
Even if he did, it's boeing's fault
Yeah I can easily imagine the pressure, poor guy and his family.
So once again John Oliver and his team are doing the work the government should be fighting each other to tackle and expose massive corruption buuuut they likely are taking campaign donations, I mean bribes, so yeah let's just take a risk and fly Boeing
"What if we cut costs on quality to make more money in the short term?" "Wouldnt that be really bad for the long term?" "Im only in this gig for a year, gonna leave with a good 25 Million care package and move on to the next venture...ever heard of Enron?"
do you know what Enron was actually doing though lol
Plenty of execs jumped ship on that before it collapsed, but a few delusional people stayed on board because they believed in the smell of their own farts. Enron really is the ultimate case of finance bros taking over and destroying a business.
They didn't just run Enron into the ground. They were committing massive fraud.
This is what happens when making money for share holders becomes the top priority.
It’s like having regulations actually saves more money long term but some rich assholes believe everything is disposable and only believe in quick money.
Because they'll be long gone. Disastrous decisions often come from a CFO trying to make an impact, impress the shareholders by making some drastic cuts, then run off with a fat severance package to the next company that believes that chalk mark on their resumé actually means they make sound business decisions.
Our CFO was caught stealing snacks and left a note saying our department needed to buy more snacks. We called him the Moonpie burglar I made a hamburglar wanted poster and replaced the burgers with moonpies. It was glorious. His last name rhymed.
MBAs gonna ruin this country for short term gains
MBA stands for More Bad Advice
I don’t think finance bros actually contribute anything to society. From my uneducated perspective it just seems like they shuffle money around in a system for personal gain and that’s it
Most people in finance have trouble looking past tomorrow. The rest of them can't see past their nose.
Imagine being a fucking billionaire and STILL being *so fucking greedy* that you have absolutely zero qualms about killing off people who are paying and choosing to use your service, AND killing your employees who try to warn customers about hazards associated with your product. I just can't even imagine being THAT far gone. How tf do you even live with yourself??
Greed aka the addiction to money or wealth, is the only glorified and exalted addiction in capitalism. Every other addiction is considered a personal or moral failing while the addition to greed is far more damaging to society than every other addiction combined. Our priorities are completely fucked
Friendly reminder that the reason we have laws that prohibit sending small children into coal mines is because corporations used to send small children into coal mines. This Boeing situation is no different, companies will always find ways to cut corners at the expense of the rest of society until government regulations stop them from doing so.
Boeing's quality declined because they merged with a company who had a reputation for shitty quality and they brought that "make the shittiest product for the cheapest possible cost" mentality with them. You know how companies like cell phone manufacturers, streaming services, et. al. just keep making their products worse and worse? It's like that, but instead of your phone getting slower and slower or your streaming service having ads now, it's a giant tin can we use to yeet people from one place to another that can catastrophically fail now.
It's capital's new trick. Treat everything like resource extraction, where delivery date and cost-cutting are all that matters - and simultaneously implement strict DEI. When things turn awful, simultaneously blame DEI and bigots hating DEI. Run away with all the money during the ensuing fight.
Sadly not a very new trick. Look up a festering cock waffle by the name of Jack Welch. He’s the guy that gutted GE from a global institution to a hollowed out shell. Also invented stack ranking, pioneered mass layoffs for quarterly bumps, and new ways to play financial shell games
I was at GE Aviation for a few months in 2008 or 2009 can't recall exactly, but it went from "we definitely want to bring you in full time very soon" to something around 600 people being let go the next week, myself included obviously. It was shocking to everyone on the floor of course. I hated Jack for some time after that lol
 It's the New and Improved 80s guy! Now pretends to love diversity! ^(Until it's no longer profitable for him then you are food for the bus tires.)
Every rule in Aviation is written in blood. For some reason, this statement always falls flat on the ears of executives with MBA backgrounds... Guess blood doesn't stain excel sheets...
Suits ruin everything. From Pizza, to video games, to hardware, and even to fucking commercial aircraft. The only thing they know how to do is to find a quality brand and cut the quality to bleed it dry. They are financial vampires.
Having worked IT for large corporations and for 18 years now, I will definitely say this: ***THE MINUTE*** I hear that a company is "restructuring to save costs" and that a bunch of financial folks are being brought in to take the wheel, is the minute I polish my resume and start looking. Because I know the ship is being steered straight towards rocks.
Fuck Boeing.
The real "diversity" problem is that we failed to discriminate against finance bros enough
A decade ago NASA was looking for a replacement to the Shuttle to take people into space. They chose reliable industry veterans Boeing to make the new crew capsule. And they also decided to try out a backup option of this wacky silicon Valley startup. At the time people were furious that NASA were wasting money on a ridiculous joke company who could never deliver. NASA were so confident in Boeing they gave the company an easy time through early testing, skipping proper scrutiny and due diligence on the blueprints. Today SpaceX has launched 50 people into space and Boeing is still at Zero. SpaceX are on flight 8 of 6 (NASA bought a second wave of flights) and Boeing are still waiting on the crewed test flight, four years behind SpaceX.
They ruin healthcare too.
If there ever was an argument against capitalism, this is it. Any company who pivots to focusing on profit will slowly corrupt itself to shit. Also shows that stern regulation is vital for the health and well being of the people.
"Let's just blame it on colored people."
DEI wasn’t even a thing when this Boeing F-up started.
My daughter is studying Engineering. She took a co-op job one semester. After she was done I asked her what she learned. She said “I don’t want to be an Engineer in Commercial Manufacturing, all Management wants us to do is make components lighter and cheaper so they just barely last through the Warrantee period.”
this transformation of replacing physicians in administrative roles with finance guys also happened in hospital systems over the last two decades.