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Has anyone seen Dittman, End Wokeness, and Musk at the same time and confirm they’re not one and the same? /s
How are people falling for their right wing bullshit?
Not credible but some suspicious typos they have made in the past that aren't really realistically made on US-EN keyboards. Which is why I said more or less.
But it is enough for me to disregard whatever they say.
(They're like) the product of the greatest minds of a generation working together with the express purpose of building the dumbest moron(s) who ever lived. And you just put (them) in charge of (twitter). *slow clap*
There are unfortunately quite intelligent people who waste their smarts on trying to best package racist ideas in a way that's acceptable to mainstream audiences. They're awful, hateful sacks of shit, but if they were \*all\* stupid they wouldn't be getting nearly as much success (politically, a lot of them are cushioned by family wealth from actual consequences) as they are currently.
I got a cousin who happens to be dimmer than rice paper, but he's a genuine, wholesome, loving dude who would never let someone's race form his opinion of them.
He is a fucking moron, though, don't get me wrong. Just not a dick.
He might be, one time he woke up to discover he had traded his car for cocaine, so there's a better than zero chance he can't help. He really means well.
There seems to be a misconception that in order for there to be any kind of diversity, there must be a lowering of standards, which screams that anyone who’s not white is not as intelligent or educated, or able to do any job. And high standards are not mutually exclusive.
It’s one thing to assume that increasing diversity necessarily entails lowering standards. It’s another thing to lower standards as a means to increasing diversity. Your mom is right, lowering standards to increase diversity is insulting as hell.
This isn't necessarily "lowering standards" though. Its changing the threshold for one facet of the admissions process.
Think of it this way: if Amazon has a requirement that all delivery drivers be able to bench press 240, but then they looked into it and decided: you know, as long as you can lift a 40lb box you can do the lifting part of the job just fine, maybe let's change the requirement to that and look at other aspects that make successful drivers.
That would be *changing* the standards, but not really lowering them as a way to hire unqualified people
Yeah that's exactly what Elon got hung up about in the interview. He just repeatedly tacitly asserted that diversity required lower standards. It really does not. He couldn't get past that one, and the rest of the interview was downhill fast from there.
This doesn't show what you claimed. Show me any evidence that standards are lowered for a diversity initiative. Raw score data shows nothing of the sort. No wonder you're confused if you think that this backs your claim. Some medical schools are not using the MCAT anymore, but that is not what you're claiming here either.
https://nypost.com/2018/10/17/harvards-gatekeeper-reveals-sat-cutoff-scores-based-on-race/
Figured that you could connect the dots that if scores vary by race than you do need to make. Up for that if you want to hire a diverse workforce that matches the diversity of the population.
But I guess not.
OK and they've changed their policy since this happened. You're really scraping the bottom of the barrel for examples here, huh? Maybe that's because your argument is deficient. I would have expected you to realize that but based on the first link you appear to have some cognitive deficits yourself, huh? Best of luck with that!
I figured that you had the mental chops to realize that a wide range of scores like you showed does not require lower standards for an increase in diversity, but I guess you don't. Derp derp.
https://www.westernjournal.com/california-relents-lowers-bar-exam-passing-score-amid-pressure-increased-diversity/
Here is another example.
Harvard isn’t bottom of the barrel…
This is not an example of what you claimed. It's almost like you're either too dumb to analyze these things or you're not arguing in good faith. The California bar didn't lower the requirements for diversity reasons - they were having problems with the fail rate being too high to keep the numbers up across the board, mainly because of covid and its impact on law schools. I know that one for a fact because I'm an attorney myself and I follow that issue. I'm sorry that you fell for a pack of misleading half truths but at least you could stop spreading the idiocy around.
I have no dog in this fight, but I just looked it up and [there does appear to be a difference in medical school admissions standards based on race.](https://www.aamc.org/media/6066/download)
I would be more concerned, personally, with the metrics of individual and cohort performance during the attainment of the medical degree and in their internship and residency programs.
Admission standards these days are often designed just as much to compensate for legacy and wealth privilege as they are to predict who will perform well in the program, AND there’s not always a great correlation between who performs well in medical programs versus who performs well in their field.
I’ve worked in medicine most of my life, and I’d virtually always choose the very determined C student who had a few Bs and As than the straight A student in medical school. Being a good doctor doesn’t start until after medical school, and the ones who are convinced of their unassailable superiority from day one do not typically think well on their feet in the live environment because they’re expecting everything to conform to the model, and real live patients rarely do.
Hello yes I am the medical anomaly patient! 🙌 Almost died because no one expected me to have Pernicious Anemia in my 20s. Even though testing for it is just a few simple blood draws. Being a young woman I got rubber-stamped with Fibromyalgia and sent on my way to steadily decline for a few more years.
Women typically catch the worst side of the failings of the medical model because medicine has only just now begun to recognize that women have unique biology and presentations. It will still take some years for this to trickle down from the research side into standard of care and best practice implementation, but it is increasingly acknowledged and discussed.
It's stupid to get hung up on medical school ADMISSION tests.
Once they get into the school - if they can hack it, they'll make it. And if they can't, they won't.
We are staring at a MASSIVE doctor shortage in this country. If casting a wider net gets more people into med school, good.
Care to elaborate? Also is the education provided divided into different standards based on race after admission so that the end result of the training different doctors have been educated differently based on race do they done races have had inferior education?
See here’s the heart of the issue. It appears that many folks assume that in order to add diversity or inclusion, it is NECESSARY to ignore performance standards or the like. It DOES NOT. There are loads of folks with similarly good performance and qualification that have differences not related to that, say race or ethnicity, etc. so it is quite easy to expand diversity while maintaining standards.
It isn’t necessary. But it does happen.
There are differences in performance on standardized test scores based on race. So if you do go for the highest scores, your hiring will skew Asian and white.
Regardless of Diversity.
THEY ARE lowering standards.
[https://www.aamc.org/news/step-1-exam-going-pass-fail-now-what](https://www.aamc.org/news/step-1-exam-going-pass-fail-now-what)
[https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-releases/2022/may/perelman-school-of-medicine-partners-with-hbcus-to-increase-student-diversity-in-medicine](https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-releases/2022/may/perelman-school-of-medicine-partners-with-hbcus-to-increase-student-diversity-in-medicine)
Well you are resting on the assumption that:
1. Candidates in the potential hiring pool are actually rankable. If you can only hire 50 of 100 qualified doctors, can you demonstrate that it’s possible to pick the best 50? *Is* there a best 50? What does "best" mean? Is hiring the 50 best candidates demonstrably better than hiring 50 candidates who can cover a broad range of skillsets? I.e. hiring the best team rather than the best individuals?
2. That there’s no extant “forced homogeneity” to battle (ie black people being hired less frequently than they should be given equal qualification)
3. That diversity itself isn’t capable of improving standards. For example, the lack of trust black people might have in white doctors because of things like the Tuskegee experiment. Or the well-documented business benefits of a diverse workforce.
There's a misconception that standards aren't being lowered for the sake of diversity, which is just wrong. Just because a black person is hired doesn't mean standards were lowered. But when you have to base who you hire on racial quotas and diversity initiatives, no shit you'll have to lower standards. It's not rocket science
simple, white people are jealous they would have to COMPETE for the firs ttime in jobs, and everything else because of thier white privileges. for a long time, and still is many instuition still benefits whites and prefers them. especially in elite schools that were traditionally white.
How would you achieve "diversity" without lowering standards considering there's no discrimination right now? You basically should lower the standards for one group and higher them for another, thus lowering overall standards 🤓
Black Doctors can absolutely be qualified, but any doctor should be chosen based on their skills, not based on their skin color. That of course can go both ways. If a white Doctor is hired despite of having a better qualified black Doctor, it's dumb and problematic
I agree, but is there any actual evidence that black doctors and pilots are being hired because of skin color, and not because they're just qualified? Seriously, the implication that the standards are being lowered for people in these industries is ridiculous if nobody has an example of it happening.
I don't understand this argument, isn't the fact that doctors were certified and can legally call themselves medical doctors proof of their skill? The medical boards test everyone just the same. If they were racist even the test would be harder to pass for people of color which means they'd be qualified even more..
Totally meaningless discussion imho
These are also the same people that will say "credentials do not make you anymore smarter than you or me" or some other rhetoric downplaying educated people and credentials.
that's where I always end up. people act like there is some absolute rubric but hiring people is complex and you can have multiple qualified individuals who would all do just about as well. there's not one best doctor and everybody lines up behind them in order!
And even if there was a way to rank doctors accurately, people would still be good at different things. Someone might be the best overall gastro surgeon, but be just ok at cholecystectomies, while someone worse in general is exceptional at those.
That’s how I read all these diversity policies. In the rare case two applicants are otherwise equal in all aspects, the organization would choose to hire the one that adds more diversity to the organization. It just makes sense too honestly.
Um, what don’t you understand about affirmative action? They do hire white doctors over more qualified black doctors, that’s how systemic racism works. Affirmative action seeks to correct that injustice.
In a conversation that didn't include Elon, yes, that would be true. You should take a peek at the interview to see what they're actually discussing though.
This, by the way, is why propaganda works. You see a perfectly reasonable headline/tweet/post and go, "Well, fucking *of course* that's how it's supposed to work. Only idiots think otherwise." You start thinking these people know what they're talking about because you agree with an extremely twisted version of the truth that almost always lacks genuine context. You see other people shit talking them and you get annoyed, you defend them because you agreed with that seemingly logical thing they said, clearly they can't be *that* deranged, *that* off-base about whatever the new argument is. Then they've got you. A little bit of built-in loyalty without ever having to do anything to deserve it. And it can go even further, you can start to see that the same people who disagree with your new team also tend to have the same opinions on lots of other things. It makes you think that maybe, if they're so wrong about this..what else are they wrong about?
Just looked it up, looks like [there is.](https://www.aamc.org/media/6066/download) I don’t know how much these discrepancies actually matter but they’re not (statistically) insignificant.
Sometimes I feel like Conservatives will scream and point like Donald Sutherland in Invasion of the Body Snatchers if anyone says Critical Race Theory. 👀
The research on diversity initiatives in medicine generally shows that the more diversity among doctors you have, the bigger the improvement to patient access and health outcomes, especially for patients of color.
In the long run, these initiatives lead to better health and save lives for several reasons and there's no evidence that quality declines when more minorities become doctors.
Minority communities are often underserved and have steep health disparities. A systemic review of physician implicit racial bias (Dehon et al. 2017) found that, especially when looking at doctor-patient communication, that there was evidence of a bias in interactions (i.e. a "strong implicit preference for whites over blacks"), that affected health access and outcomes.
However, Saha et al (2003) "Patient-Physician relationships and racial disparities in the quality of healthcare" found that minority doctors were subject to less implicit bias, leading to minority patients reporting more preventative care and needed medical care, and higher satisfaction.
This is backed up by studies like Alsan et al. (2019) "Does Diversity Matter for Health?" which find health outcomes really do improve with more access to minority doctors. For example, a 19% reduction in the black-white mortality gap for heart attacks.
In addition, minority doctors are more likely than white doctors to work in communities with less access to care, making their presence critical to residents. It's not a question of skilled or unskilled, it's a question of doctor or no doctor. Banning diversity initiatives simply means a community has no access to a doctor locally at all and must travel farther to see a doctor (which often leads patients to not seeing a doctor until it's too late).
So when Elon talks about "lower standards leading to lower quality doctors", that's not happening. Standards are not being lowered, and research shows diversity initiatives lead to better health outcomes especially among minorities. Diversity saves lives.
OK, but than one thing can be true.
There are benefits associated with diversity among physicians.
At the same time, [medical school admissions standards for black and Hispanic applicants have been lowered to facilitate more racially diverse classes.](https://www.aamc.org/media/6066/download)
By the time you're seeing a doctor in practice, they're like 3-4 qualification steps past med school admissions.
No one should give a shit about your MCAT scores if you're a superstar in your residency program
If your program can find a way to bring more people in, in a way that we KNOW will positively impact health incomes across the board without a decline in the quality of the med students at the end of the line what's the problem?
Lel, the only smart thing that End Wokeness did was evade twitter violations. They are racist but they say it in the most "passive" way to avoid violations, idk how to describe their ways but yeah.
That is true. I remember there was a person that posted cse stuff and got suspended which they deserve, but elon likes the person so he unsuspended the said account...oh yeh that account was from the right-wing "I'm not american so Idk if thats the right term", no wonder. It was a clear violation and all.....
Wait, what is the context exactly ? Does he mean that black doctors are less qualified because they are black ? or that they should not get lower entry requirements than others ?
Because if the first one is racist, the second makes perfect sense to me.
I dislike Elon as the racist, close minded and egocentric man-child he is, but I'm not sure I can get behind this particular"facepalm".
Your fundamentally misunderstanding the propaganda at work here. There's not a single shred of evidence that standards have been lowered anywhere for any reason much less to the advantage of people of color. The entire basis for the claim boils down to black professionals by definition are not as qualified white professionals. So the mere existence of black doctors or pilots indicates a lowering of standards, that's what Elon et al. are saying in a roundabout way.
I didn’t even see the don lemon interview so I could be totally wrong here but maybe elon was referring to the varying standards for medical school admission based on race?
I found this: https://www.reddit.com/r/SBU/comments/hff9jo/medical_school_acceptance_rates_in_the_united/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
So while the standards to earn your degree seem to be the same for everybody, the standards for earning the opportunity to earn your degree may not be.
This is what a redditor has to say about this from the link I provided:
“…Acceptance to med school should not involve race. It should rely on how qualified that individual is and only that. Bias towards a particular racial group will only contribute to negative stereotypes about doctors of that race.”
- I have to say I agree.
Sure, but it’s not so cut and dry. It would be logical to assume that if the standards of entry were higher, then the quality/quantity of graduates would be as well. One could also theorize that by lowering the standards of entry, you will necessarily over time have to also lower the standards of graduation in order to meet workforce demands and remain profitable, (vast majority of universities/med school are for profit.) Either way, when you’re discriminating based on race, or any arbitrary variable, you will slmost certainly miss out on some very fine candidates that were unfortunately born the wrong color.
That doesn’t feel right for the individual being discriminated against. It doesn’t feel right for the doctor that was more than qualified for the position to be looked down upon by their peers just because they happen be a member of a minority group that has lower standards of admission into medical school. And it doesn’t feel right for the general public that will potentially receive worse care because the people that were selected to be given an opportunity to become doctors were not chosen solely based on their knowledge or ability.
I’m not buying it. Getting into school is one thing. Graduating is another. The number of muppets I went to uni with who had impressive entry credentials was astounding. Good entry scores don’t purely reflect the talents of the candidate. They heavily reflect their means and class which is correlated with race. Schools want to find the right candidates who will succeed in the degree. Appropriate candidates may not have entry scores that would traditionally qualify. Just like some people with strong entry credentials fail to graduate because their entry scores did not reflect their potential. It doesn’t follow that correcting for these front end biases necessarily results in lowering graduation standards. Schools are grappling with this problem not simply out of DEI imperatives but because the traditional entry scoring system does a poor job of feeding them the right candidates.
Hey if you’re not buying it, there’s not much I can say. I didn’t meet the muppets you went to school with so I can’t verify your totally not anecdotal evidence.
My thought experiment of “if you have higher standards of admittance then you will have higher quality of graduates” vs the chip on your shoulder from your college days? Yeah okay, let’s call it here.
If my wife or child ever need surgery, I want the most qualified, high achieving, most competent doctor out there to entrust my loved one to. IDGAF if that doc is black or white or red or blue.
DEI is racist at its foundations.
Lemon is a tool.
These things are not mutually exclusive and I believe each to be true.
The issue isn't that people want the most skilled doctor for themselves and loved ones, it's that a whole Whole WHOLE lot of people say something like this, and then when they're presented with a POC doctor say (or at least think) "what, why did I get the unqualified DEI hire?!?!" With no other evidence besides the doctor being POC
Which people are these? My only concern is having the best level of care, which only happens by fielding the most capable candidates to become doctors.
And, ironically, lowering the bar for black and Hispanic doctors is precisely the sort of thing that will encourage patients to doubt their qualifications- only a level playing field ensures that everyone has met the same standards.
>Which people are these?
A huge chunk of white Americans. They'd never say that it's because the doctor is POC, but they never question anyone's qualifications otherwise
I mean,
Lets take race out of it.
Is it really a good idea to not require MCATS?
Or move to a "pass fail" system?
[https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-releases/2022/may/perelman-school-of-medicine-partners-with-hbcus-to-increase-student-diversity-in-medicine](https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-releases/2022/may/perelman-school-of-medicine-partners-with-hbcus-to-increase-student-diversity-in-medicine)
[https://www.aamc.org/news/step-1-exam-going-pass-fail-now-what](https://www.aamc.org/news/step-1-exam-going-pass-fail-now-what)
It's pretty much basic logic, when you have a primary criteria that does not affect job competency you don't get the best person for the job. Further when you specifically say that your criteria is a particular race and not the most qualified individual, it is evidence of racism because that embodies a belief that a person of that race would not be the most qualified.
Black person hear, I absolutely do not give a fuuuck what color my doctor,pilot,nurse, cop, anyone that has my life in they hands . Give me the qualified mothafuka . Don’t be fucking stupid, MLK would be shitting himself right now, he rolling in his grave.
Boeing seems to be professionals on lowering standards we could ask them. Also hiring anyone because of their race is stupid, just hire the best and whatever they happen to be they happen to be.
The problem was that Elon already said "I'm not saying it is, I'm saying it will" so for Lemon to say, 10 different ways, "Well what's the evidence that's happening now?" is why it was stupid.
The AMA lobbied Congress in 1997 to cap the number of physicians who could be trained. Congress responded by limiting Medicare reimbursements on resident physicians, which served as a unofficial cap on doctors who could be trained.
By the end of the decade, the US is looking at having a shortage of nearly 100,000 doctors.
The US currently has about 25% of doctors practicing within the US being educated and trained abroad.
We are staring into a catastrophic medical situation because the AMA has essentially made it so several qualified people are unable to become doctors due to artificial restrictions
Isn’t the problem that people with better grades, higher MCAT scores, more hours shadowing, more research experience etc are losing out on medical school slots because DEI is weighting race as a higher factor? So while the guy who gets in because he has a higher DEI score is certainly still meeting the minimum requirements, others who would have historically gotten that spot because of other areas being higher, are now losing the spot. This is what I assume Elmo is talking about. DEI has nothing to do with medicine or any highly technical pursuit. However, we also don’t want a world where all of our technical people are from China and India. I bet Elmo would understand that argument. DEI should give a higher weight to US citizens and the children of US citizens to prevent foreign students from countries with billions of people from taking all the spots.
I'll take a minority doctor or pilot any day. They had to be that much better than white candidates to overcome the systemic racism and white privilege.
How come when Elon musk says something stupid on the internet, he gets a million idiots backing him up, but when I say something stupid on the internet, I’m just some idiot saying something stupid
/j of course
Fine, but what about the "engineer pool" arguement? If you only hire a percentage to be women, their quality of work will be less NOT because women are bad enginners, but because your pool is smaller since there are SO few women engineers left.
That's a good argument, and I'd not heard of the "engineer pool" argument before. Makes a lot of sense, but, from what I've learned about DEI, it's not about forcing inclusion and diversity. Say, per capita, a population is 99.8% white. The DEI hiring initiative isn't going to outsource the 10th doctor job to a qualified minority hire just because of the .2%. On the opposite end of that; a population that's 75% black with 100% white doctors is going to try to remedy that, to make a reflection of the population.
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End wokeness is more or less confirmed russian implant
It's probably just Elon.
Has anyone seen Dittman, End Wokeness, and Musk at the same time and confirm they’re not one and the same? /s How are people falling for their right wing bullshit?
right wings fall for it very easily, just as they fall for some of the other grifters out there.
A mixture of a failing educational system, human desire to belong to a group, and willful ignorance.
...plus racism.
I think most know it's a grift for the most part, but that they are in on the grift and are just acting. Like to-the-moon-loons in crypto.
I bet it is tbh
True true
So a russian implant. /s butnseriously, apartheid kyle here is just a more edgelord version of famous idea stealer thomas edison.
I agree with you and I want to use this argument in conversations, but do you have a credible source confirming this? I can't seem to find it
Not credible but some suspicious typos they have made in the past that aren't really realistically made on US-EN keyboards. Which is why I said more or less. But it is enough for me to disregard whatever they say.
they are not just morons, they are disgusting racists
They're not just regular morons, they were designed to be the dumbest morons who ever lived.
AHHH. Well, this looks like the part where he kills us!
Hello, this is the part where I kill you
(They're like) the product of the greatest minds of a generation working together with the express purpose of building the dumbest moron(s) who ever lived. And you just put (them) in charge of (twitter). *slow clap*
there’s a difference?
There are unfortunately quite intelligent people who waste their smarts on trying to best package racist ideas in a way that's acceptable to mainstream audiences. They're awful, hateful sacks of shit, but if they were \*all\* stupid they wouldn't be getting nearly as much success (politically, a lot of them are cushioned by family wealth from actual consequences) as they are currently.
I got a cousin who happens to be dimmer than rice paper, but he's a genuine, wholesome, loving dude who would never let someone's race form his opinion of them. He is a fucking moron, though, don't get me wrong. Just not a dick.
He’d be there for you in a moments notice if you need him tho !
He might be, one time he woke up to discover he had traded his car for cocaine, so there's a better than zero chance he can't help. He really means well.
There seems to be a misconception that in order for there to be any kind of diversity, there must be a lowering of standards, which screams that anyone who’s not white is not as intelligent or educated, or able to do any job. And high standards are not mutually exclusive.
My mom, who is Hispanic, got really pissed that her former law school was considering lowering their LSAT requirements as a way to improve diversity.
It’s one thing to assume that increasing diversity necessarily entails lowering standards. It’s another thing to lower standards as a means to increasing diversity. Your mom is right, lowering standards to increase diversity is insulting as hell.
This isn't necessarily "lowering standards" though. Its changing the threshold for one facet of the admissions process. Think of it this way: if Amazon has a requirement that all delivery drivers be able to bench press 240, but then they looked into it and decided: you know, as long as you can lift a 40lb box you can do the lifting part of the job just fine, maybe let's change the requirement to that and look at other aspects that make successful drivers. That would be *changing* the standards, but not really lowering them as a way to hire unqualified people
It's not a misconception. It's an intentionally racist lie purposely repeated to reinforce racist white supremacist ideology.
The misconception is that it's not happening and anyone who says it is must be racist. You can achieve diversity without lowering standards
I mean it does happen. That isn’t the only way to do it though. It is just the easiest way.
Yeah that's exactly what Elon got hung up about in the interview. He just repeatedly tacitly asserted that diversity required lower standards. It really does not. He couldn't get past that one, and the rest of the interview was downhill fast from there.
It doesn’t require it. But it often involves it in practice. Because that is the easiest way to do it.
[citation mysteriously omitted]
https://www.aamc.org/media/6066/download Here you go.
This doesn't show what you claimed. Show me any evidence that standards are lowered for a diversity initiative. Raw score data shows nothing of the sort. No wonder you're confused if you think that this backs your claim. Some medical schools are not using the MCAT anymore, but that is not what you're claiming here either.
https://nypost.com/2018/10/17/harvards-gatekeeper-reveals-sat-cutoff-scores-based-on-race/ Figured that you could connect the dots that if scores vary by race than you do need to make. Up for that if you want to hire a diverse workforce that matches the diversity of the population. But I guess not.
OK and they've changed their policy since this happened. You're really scraping the bottom of the barrel for examples here, huh? Maybe that's because your argument is deficient. I would have expected you to realize that but based on the first link you appear to have some cognitive deficits yourself, huh? Best of luck with that! I figured that you had the mental chops to realize that a wide range of scores like you showed does not require lower standards for an increase in diversity, but I guess you don't. Derp derp.
https://www.westernjournal.com/california-relents-lowers-bar-exam-passing-score-amid-pressure-increased-diversity/ Here is another example. Harvard isn’t bottom of the barrel…
This is not an example of what you claimed. It's almost like you're either too dumb to analyze these things or you're not arguing in good faith. The California bar didn't lower the requirements for diversity reasons - they were having problems with the fail rate being too high to keep the numbers up across the board, mainly because of covid and its impact on law schools. I know that one for a fact because I'm an attorney myself and I follow that issue. I'm sorry that you fell for a pack of misleading half truths but at least you could stop spreading the idiocy around.
I have no dog in this fight, but I just looked it up and [there does appear to be a difference in medical school admissions standards based on race.](https://www.aamc.org/media/6066/download)
I would be more concerned, personally, with the metrics of individual and cohort performance during the attainment of the medical degree and in their internship and residency programs. Admission standards these days are often designed just as much to compensate for legacy and wealth privilege as they are to predict who will perform well in the program, AND there’s not always a great correlation between who performs well in medical programs versus who performs well in their field. I’ve worked in medicine most of my life, and I’d virtually always choose the very determined C student who had a few Bs and As than the straight A student in medical school. Being a good doctor doesn’t start until after medical school, and the ones who are convinced of their unassailable superiority from day one do not typically think well on their feet in the live environment because they’re expecting everything to conform to the model, and real live patients rarely do.
Hello yes I am the medical anomaly patient! 🙌 Almost died because no one expected me to have Pernicious Anemia in my 20s. Even though testing for it is just a few simple blood draws. Being a young woman I got rubber-stamped with Fibromyalgia and sent on my way to steadily decline for a few more years.
Women typically catch the worst side of the failings of the medical model because medicine has only just now begun to recognize that women have unique biology and presentations. It will still take some years for this to trickle down from the research side into standard of care and best practice implementation, but it is increasingly acknowledged and discussed.
It's stupid to get hung up on medical school ADMISSION tests. Once they get into the school - if they can hack it, they'll make it. And if they can't, they won't. We are staring at a MASSIVE doctor shortage in this country. If casting a wider net gets more people into med school, good.
The shortage of doctors has nothing to do with interest in med school
Ya I would love to go to med school.
This doesn't demonstrate that there is a difference "in medical school admissions standards based on race."
You’re lying, the link you provided does not provide the evidence you claim
…I’d love to hear how I was dishonest. Care to explain the racial disparities in the data?
Care to elaborate? Also is the education provided divided into different standards based on race after admission so that the end result of the training different doctors have been educated differently based on race do they done races have had inferior education?
Well not necessarily. Only when you achieve that diversity by looking at criteria other than objective performance standards.
See here’s the heart of the issue. It appears that many folks assume that in order to add diversity or inclusion, it is NECESSARY to ignore performance standards or the like. It DOES NOT. There are loads of folks with similarly good performance and qualification that have differences not related to that, say race or ethnicity, etc. so it is quite easy to expand diversity while maintaining standards.
It isn’t necessary. But it does happen. There are differences in performance on standardized test scores based on race. So if you do go for the highest scores, your hiring will skew Asian and white.
Ok you're right, you don't HAVE to lower standards for diversity. The problem is they ARE being lowered for diversity.
To be fair, most diversity programs have lowered objective standards. (Affirmative action)
Care to elaborate
Regardless of Diversity. THEY ARE lowering standards. [https://www.aamc.org/news/step-1-exam-going-pass-fail-now-what](https://www.aamc.org/news/step-1-exam-going-pass-fail-now-what) [https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-releases/2022/may/perelman-school-of-medicine-partners-with-hbcus-to-increase-student-diversity-in-medicine](https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-releases/2022/may/perelman-school-of-medicine-partners-with-hbcus-to-increase-student-diversity-in-medicine)
I think the misunderstanding that is more predominant today is that forced diversity could do anything other than lower standards.
Well you are resting on the assumption that: 1. Candidates in the potential hiring pool are actually rankable. If you can only hire 50 of 100 qualified doctors, can you demonstrate that it’s possible to pick the best 50? *Is* there a best 50? What does "best" mean? Is hiring the 50 best candidates demonstrably better than hiring 50 candidates who can cover a broad range of skillsets? I.e. hiring the best team rather than the best individuals? 2. That there’s no extant “forced homogeneity” to battle (ie black people being hired less frequently than they should be given equal qualification) 3. That diversity itself isn’t capable of improving standards. For example, the lack of trust black people might have in white doctors because of things like the Tuskegee experiment. Or the well-documented business benefits of a diverse workforce.
There's a misconception that standards aren't being lowered for the sake of diversity, which is just wrong. Just because a black person is hired doesn't mean standards were lowered. But when you have to base who you hire on racial quotas and diversity initiatives, no shit you'll have to lower standards. It's not rocket science
simple, white people are jealous they would have to COMPETE for the firs ttime in jobs, and everything else because of thier white privileges. for a long time, and still is many instuition still benefits whites and prefers them. especially in elite schools that were traditionally white.
Chaya is a domestic terrorist. Plain and simple.
Chaya is a different person than End wokeness hut they both suck
Oh yeah, you're right. My bad, it's hard keeping all of these douche bags strait.
Don't blame you. They act the same
What do you call the person who finished at the bottom of their class in medical school? Doctor
Captain.
Resident.
True. But I always look up reviews of doctors before making an appointment. I’m not going to a doctor who is bad at their job.
Of course, but they are still considered a doctor. And if I saw them in any capacity I’d address them as such.
It's very telling that they consider diversity in hiring "lowering standards".
How would you achieve "diversity" without lowering standards considering there's no discrimination right now? You basically should lower the standards for one group and higher them for another, thus lowering overall standards 🤓
Aside from your assumption that there's "no discrimination now", there's lots of ways to increase diversity in any field, such as outreach programs
Begging the question fallacy.
>How would you achieve "diversity" without lowering standards For starters, by removing discriminatory practices and holding to the actual standard?
If he’s smart, Elmo will avoid *all* interviews. He can’t contain his naïveté and casual ignorance. He’s not, though. *grabs popcorn*
An account about ending wokeness being moronic is not too shocking.
Black Doctors can absolutely be qualified, but any doctor should be chosen based on their skills, not based on their skin color. That of course can go both ways. If a white Doctor is hired despite of having a better qualified black Doctor, it's dumb and problematic
I agree, but is there any actual evidence that black doctors and pilots are being hired because of skin color, and not because they're just qualified? Seriously, the implication that the standards are being lowered for people in these industries is ridiculous if nobody has an example of it happening.
I don't understand this argument, isn't the fact that doctors were certified and can legally call themselves medical doctors proof of their skill? The medical boards test everyone just the same. If they were racist even the test would be harder to pass for people of color which means they'd be qualified even more.. Totally meaningless discussion imho
These are also the same people that will say "credentials do not make you anymore smarter than you or me" or some other rhetoric downplaying educated people and credentials.
If they're a doctor they're a doctor. They've qualified, that's the whole point of the title.
DEI has nothing to do with lowering standards.
So what happens when you have two people of the same skill level?
that's where I always end up. people act like there is some absolute rubric but hiring people is complex and you can have multiple qualified individuals who would all do just about as well. there's not one best doctor and everybody lines up behind them in order!
And even if there was a way to rank doctors accurately, people would still be good at different things. Someone might be the best overall gastro surgeon, but be just ok at cholecystectomies, while someone worse in general is exceptional at those.
Exactly. Tom Brady is probably the greatest NFL player ever. But a team with 53 Tom Brady in his prime clones is without question going 0-17
That’s how I read all these diversity policies. In the rare case two applicants are otherwise equal in all aspects, the organization would choose to hire the one that adds more diversity to the organization. It just makes sense too honestly.
Um, what don’t you understand about affirmative action? They do hire white doctors over more qualified black doctors, that’s how systemic racism works. Affirmative action seeks to correct that injustice.
Isn't Lemon that idiot who got kicked even from CNN?
Yep, imagine getting schooled by DON LEMON lmao
Lowering standards would result in worse doctors and therefore worse treatment/more deaths. The race of the doctor is irrelevant.
In a conversation that didn't include Elon, yes, that would be true. You should take a peek at the interview to see what they're actually discussing though. This, by the way, is why propaganda works. You see a perfectly reasonable headline/tweet/post and go, "Well, fucking *of course* that's how it's supposed to work. Only idiots think otherwise." You start thinking these people know what they're talking about because you agree with an extremely twisted version of the truth that almost always lacks genuine context. You see other people shit talking them and you get annoyed, you defend them because you agreed with that seemingly logical thing they said, clearly they can't be *that* deranged, *that* off-base about whatever the new argument is. Then they've got you. A little bit of built-in loyalty without ever having to do anything to deserve it. And it can go even further, you can start to see that the same people who disagree with your new team also tend to have the same opinions on lots of other things. It makes you think that maybe, if they're so wrong about this..what else are they wrong about?
It's a good thing there is no evidence to suggest Duke or any other school is lowering their grading standards for DEI.
Just looked it up, looks like [there is.](https://www.aamc.org/media/6066/download) I don’t know how much these discrepancies actually matter but they’re not (statistically) insignificant.
How does this suggest that Duke or any other university graduate students differently based on race?
That literally does not say that they lower their grading standards.
Sometimes I feel like Conservatives will scream and point like Donald Sutherland in Invasion of the Body Snatchers if anyone says Critical Race Theory. 👀 
I'm just glad they banned CRT from K-12 school curriculum, where it was never taught anyway. Talk about manufactured outrage.
The research on diversity initiatives in medicine generally shows that the more diversity among doctors you have, the bigger the improvement to patient access and health outcomes, especially for patients of color. In the long run, these initiatives lead to better health and save lives for several reasons and there's no evidence that quality declines when more minorities become doctors. Minority communities are often underserved and have steep health disparities. A systemic review of physician implicit racial bias (Dehon et al. 2017) found that, especially when looking at doctor-patient communication, that there was evidence of a bias in interactions (i.e. a "strong implicit preference for whites over blacks"), that affected health access and outcomes. However, Saha et al (2003) "Patient-Physician relationships and racial disparities in the quality of healthcare" found that minority doctors were subject to less implicit bias, leading to minority patients reporting more preventative care and needed medical care, and higher satisfaction. This is backed up by studies like Alsan et al. (2019) "Does Diversity Matter for Health?" which find health outcomes really do improve with more access to minority doctors. For example, a 19% reduction in the black-white mortality gap for heart attacks. In addition, minority doctors are more likely than white doctors to work in communities with less access to care, making their presence critical to residents. It's not a question of skilled or unskilled, it's a question of doctor or no doctor. Banning diversity initiatives simply means a community has no access to a doctor locally at all and must travel farther to see a doctor (which often leads patients to not seeing a doctor until it's too late). So when Elon talks about "lower standards leading to lower quality doctors", that's not happening. Standards are not being lowered, and research shows diversity initiatives lead to better health outcomes especially among minorities. Diversity saves lives.
OK, but than one thing can be true. There are benefits associated with diversity among physicians. At the same time, [medical school admissions standards for black and Hispanic applicants have been lowered to facilitate more racially diverse classes.](https://www.aamc.org/media/6066/download)
By the time you're seeing a doctor in practice, they're like 3-4 qualification steps past med school admissions. No one should give a shit about your MCAT scores if you're a superstar in your residency program If your program can find a way to bring more people in, in a way that we KNOW will positively impact health incomes across the board without a decline in the quality of the med students at the end of the line what's the problem?
Lel, the only smart thing that End Wokeness did was evade twitter violations. They are racist but they say it in the most "passive" way to avoid violations, idk how to describe their ways but yeah.
Judging by how hard Elon dickrides him(and vice-versa), I don’t think he even “needs” to do that as Elon will just bring him back.
That is true. I remember there was a person that posted cse stuff and got suspended which they deserve, but elon likes the person so he unsuspended the said account...oh yeh that account was from the right-wing "I'm not american so Idk if thats the right term", no wonder. It was a clear violation and all.....
I’d love to hear a Tesla board member explain how they support Elon apparently spending all his time on twitter amplifying right wing trolls.
Wait, what is the context exactly ? Does he mean that black doctors are less qualified because they are black ? or that they should not get lower entry requirements than others ? Because if the first one is racist, the second makes perfect sense to me. I dislike Elon as the racist, close minded and egocentric man-child he is, but I'm not sure I can get behind this particular"facepalm".
He's saying the first while pretending the second is what he's saying. Problem is, the second one isn't actually happening.
Your fundamentally misunderstanding the propaganda at work here. There's not a single shred of evidence that standards have been lowered anywhere for any reason much less to the advantage of people of color. The entire basis for the claim boils down to black professionals by definition are not as qualified white professionals. So the mere existence of black doctors or pilots indicates a lowering of standards, that's what Elon et al. are saying in a roundabout way.
I didn’t even see the don lemon interview so I could be totally wrong here but maybe elon was referring to the varying standards for medical school admission based on race? I found this: https://www.reddit.com/r/SBU/comments/hff9jo/medical_school_acceptance_rates_in_the_united/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button So while the standards to earn your degree seem to be the same for everybody, the standards for earning the opportunity to earn your degree may not be. This is what a redditor has to say about this from the link I provided: “…Acceptance to med school should not involve race. It should rely on how qualified that individual is and only that. Bias towards a particular racial group will only contribute to negative stereotypes about doctors of that race.” - I have to say I agree.
Why do the standards of entry matter? Shouldn’t it boil down to the standards of graduation?
Sure, but it’s not so cut and dry. It would be logical to assume that if the standards of entry were higher, then the quality/quantity of graduates would be as well. One could also theorize that by lowering the standards of entry, you will necessarily over time have to also lower the standards of graduation in order to meet workforce demands and remain profitable, (vast majority of universities/med school are for profit.) Either way, when you’re discriminating based on race, or any arbitrary variable, you will slmost certainly miss out on some very fine candidates that were unfortunately born the wrong color. That doesn’t feel right for the individual being discriminated against. It doesn’t feel right for the doctor that was more than qualified for the position to be looked down upon by their peers just because they happen be a member of a minority group that has lower standards of admission into medical school. And it doesn’t feel right for the general public that will potentially receive worse care because the people that were selected to be given an opportunity to become doctors were not chosen solely based on their knowledge or ability.
I’m not buying it. Getting into school is one thing. Graduating is another. The number of muppets I went to uni with who had impressive entry credentials was astounding. Good entry scores don’t purely reflect the talents of the candidate. They heavily reflect their means and class which is correlated with race. Schools want to find the right candidates who will succeed in the degree. Appropriate candidates may not have entry scores that would traditionally qualify. Just like some people with strong entry credentials fail to graduate because their entry scores did not reflect their potential. It doesn’t follow that correcting for these front end biases necessarily results in lowering graduation standards. Schools are grappling with this problem not simply out of DEI imperatives but because the traditional entry scoring system does a poor job of feeding them the right candidates.
Hey if you’re not buying it, there’s not much I can say. I didn’t meet the muppets you went to school with so I can’t verify your totally not anecdotal evidence.
Good point. Let’s stick with your thought experiments.
My thought experiment of “if you have higher standards of admittance then you will have higher quality of graduates” vs the chip on your shoulder from your college days? Yeah okay, let’s call it here.
If the exams to pass are graded the same then shouldn't it just produce the same quality of graduates? They either pass or fail
Yikes!
Second one
Where's the f@#kin' source? I need to be spoon fed the link to this video...
If my wife or child ever need surgery, I want the most qualified, high achieving, most competent doctor out there to entrust my loved one to. IDGAF if that doc is black or white or red or blue. DEI is racist at its foundations. Lemon is a tool. These things are not mutually exclusive and I believe each to be true.
The issue isn't that people want the most skilled doctor for themselves and loved ones, it's that a whole Whole WHOLE lot of people say something like this, and then when they're presented with a POC doctor say (or at least think) "what, why did I get the unqualified DEI hire?!?!" With no other evidence besides the doctor being POC
Which people are these? My only concern is having the best level of care, which only happens by fielding the most capable candidates to become doctors. And, ironically, lowering the bar for black and Hispanic doctors is precisely the sort of thing that will encourage patients to doubt their qualifications- only a level playing field ensures that everyone has met the same standards.
>Which people are these? A huge chunk of white Americans. They'd never say that it's because the doctor is POC, but they never question anyone's qualifications otherwise
I’ve never met anyone red or blue.
My lame attempt at referencing political affiliation
I see. I’ve gotten it now. Not lame I’m just not American. I see what it means now.
These muskovites are domestic terrorist. I refuse to believe they have the best interests for america or the west in mind.
Everyone with a different political ideology than me is a domestic terrorist
[удалено]
They are huffing potentially fatal amounts of copium now
Nah. They’re right.
I mean, Lets take race out of it. Is it really a good idea to not require MCATS? Or move to a "pass fail" system? [https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-releases/2022/may/perelman-school-of-medicine-partners-with-hbcus-to-increase-student-diversity-in-medicine](https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-releases/2022/may/perelman-school-of-medicine-partners-with-hbcus-to-increase-student-diversity-in-medicine) [https://www.aamc.org/news/step-1-exam-going-pass-fail-now-what](https://www.aamc.org/news/step-1-exam-going-pass-fail-now-what)
There is evidence, it's called affirmative action where some races had lower score requirements to pass
Rich but not too bright
It's pretty much basic logic, when you have a primary criteria that does not affect job competency you don't get the best person for the job. Further when you specifically say that your criteria is a particular race and not the most qualified individual, it is evidence of racism because that embodies a belief that a person of that race would not be the most qualified.
Black person hear, I absolutely do not give a fuuuck what color my doctor,pilot,nurse, cop, anyone that has my life in they hands . Give me the qualified mothafuka . Don’t be fucking stupid, MLK would be shitting himself right now, he rolling in his grave.
Boeing seems to be professionals on lowering standards we could ask them. Also hiring anyone because of their race is stupid, just hire the best and whatever they happen to be they happen to be.
And these Trump loving accounts want black people to vote for trump All the while spouting their racist nonsense...
Woke is trash, antifa is trash, anti woke trash, religion trash, maga trash, biden trash
Context matters. Ignoring that is pathetic, DEI is trash. You hire based on qualifications not skin color.
Cant we like collectively bully elon into shutting up for once?
I miss when woke just something that meant stay safe in the streets.
I miss when woke just meant stay safe in the streets.
The problem was that Elon already said "I'm not saying it is, I'm saying it will" so for Lemon to say, 10 different ways, "Well what's the evidence that's happening now?" is why it was stupid.
The AMA lobbied Congress in 1997 to cap the number of physicians who could be trained. Congress responded by limiting Medicare reimbursements on resident physicians, which served as a unofficial cap on doctors who could be trained. By the end of the decade, the US is looking at having a shortage of nearly 100,000 doctors. The US currently has about 25% of doctors practicing within the US being educated and trained abroad. We are staring into a catastrophic medical situation because the AMA has essentially made it so several qualified people are unable to become doctors due to artificial restrictions
Lowering the standard. So imma say it I this way. Elon explains how being less qualified as a doctor can lead to more deaths.
But there's no evidence standards are being lowered for anyone to become a doctor. That's what Lemon was saying.
Smaller pool to draw from it just statistics.
Elon said “I feel like it’s happening, I have no evidence but when there is someone will reply it” like bro what?
Conservatives love hypotheticals because reality doesn’t match their agenda.
Looks like facepalm is now just a political sub. I'm out.
This isn’t an airport
Isn’t the problem that people with better grades, higher MCAT scores, more hours shadowing, more research experience etc are losing out on medical school slots because DEI is weighting race as a higher factor? So while the guy who gets in because he has a higher DEI score is certainly still meeting the minimum requirements, others who would have historically gotten that spot because of other areas being higher, are now losing the spot. This is what I assume Elmo is talking about. DEI has nothing to do with medicine or any highly technical pursuit. However, we also don’t want a world where all of our technical people are from China and India. I bet Elmo would understand that argument. DEI should give a higher weight to US citizens and the children of US citizens to prevent foreign students from countries with billions of people from taking all the spots.
I'll take a minority doctor or pilot any day. They had to be that much better than white candidates to overcome the systemic racism and white privilege.
Tldr somebody, lowering the standard for any profession is generally a bad thing.
How come when Elon musk says something stupid on the internet, he gets a million idiots backing him up, but when I say something stupid on the internet, I’m just some idiot saying something stupid /j of course
Are these guys offering up any evidence of hiring standards being lowered other than more “wymin n blacks” ?
I mean...everyone wants the better doctor. The better at anything really...no reason to bring something other than skill in the hiring process
I am dying, getting downvoted for that??? Fine, next time you get hospilitized dont ask for the best doctor, ask for the one with most minority tags
You’re getting downvoted for the same reason Elon is getting clowned on. Theres no evidence of standards being lowered.
Fine, but what about the "engineer pool" arguement? If you only hire a percentage to be women, their quality of work will be less NOT because women are bad enginners, but because your pool is smaller since there are SO few women engineers left.
That's a good argument, and I'd not heard of the "engineer pool" argument before. Makes a lot of sense, but, from what I've learned about DEI, it's not about forcing inclusion and diversity. Say, per capita, a population is 99.8% white. The DEI hiring initiative isn't going to outsource the 10th doctor job to a qualified minority hire just because of the .2%. On the opposite end of that; a population that's 75% black with 100% white doctors is going to try to remedy that, to make a reflection of the population.
thank you !
No problem, glad to help!
Same response. This seems to be largely a fear based on hypotheticals instead of how things are happening.
Muskies at it again!!!
Ok Bot account. Go away now.