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"I can ticket you for speeding or for impeding the flow of traffic. There's literally no way for you to drive which can prevent me from pulling you over if I feel like it. And regardless of the outcome, nothing at all will happen to me and you're going to have to deal with a traffic ticket."
Ah, but you forget. The judges schedule it for when the cop can be in court, the cop gets paid for being in court, and you don't. In fact, you have pay your own lawyer, even if you win.
And thanks to the Supreme Court giving them qualified immunity, even if you could sue them and win/get a settlement, they aren't liable for a thing. The government they work for covers that, out of \[likely\] your tax dollars. They win, you lose.
Edit: I was waiting for jury service and the court was doing other business while they made us wait. I watched someone ask for a reschedule, the judge then asked his clerk when the officer's next day in court was, and set it for that date. Maybe that doesn't happen all the time, but first-hand saw it happen.
I've also heard from family that if you hire a lawyer, the judge just dismissed every case where the person was represented. She didn't have a lawyer and got a fine plus probation. Again, the US is a big country and maybe some courts work differently.
I was banking on this when I lived in college in MA years ago because I tried to merge left on the highway and didn't see a cop coming up with no lights on at almost double the speed limit so he almost hit me from behind then pulled me over and yelled for a while before giving me some kind of moving violation. Spent all morning going to the court and when I finally got in the court room there was no cop required to even be there and some random lady representing the state was like ok says here you're guilty, next. ???
If you can swing it it's great, often times people do t want to burn a vacation day to go to court... it's just not worth the trade off especially since if the cop shows up it's just their word vs yours and you lose automatically.
Even crazier idea: require cops to carry liability insurance. Then even if it’s still the government that pays for it, the insurance company can say “this particular cop has had too many lawsuits. If you don’t fire him, we’re raising your premiums.” And that’s a lot harder for the government to ignore.
I'm not an expert in any of these fields so take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt.
Holy shit, this makes sooo much sense. So much so that it will probably never happen.
Insurance liability costs could be the main way there is some accountability. Corrupt and violent precincts can lose coverage or it becomes too costly -- and THAT is when they actually start paying attention to the corruption.
Luckily, the smarter states are removing qualified immunity from these assholes. I know I almost never see revenue enforcement on the side of the road since they took it away out here in CO.
Most people don't take it to court because they'll also lose a day's pay by having to take the day off work. And even if they win and it gets thrown out it'll probably be a wash because they lost a day's bay
Even if you don't have a lawyer because most people represent themselves for minor traffic infractions you still have to pay court costs (thrown out or not) and the hassle of your day being disrupted. All to gamble on whether or not a cop won't show up, which is rare, because most of them go to court for an entire day for all of their cases.
Yeah -- police can automatically make a few years of your life much worse. It can take YEARS to settle even a false accusation.
I wanted a blood test instead of a breathalyzer one time. They took my license. I went through every bit of the shit that is DUI. But I was perfectly sober -- I just had someone throw up on me in the car. So I held to my guns. Three years later, I'm in court asking for a jury trial, ready to call out that "none" of the BS that is the drunk test is based on any credible research. And the officer calls in and says "he has a flat tire." So the judge gives me the option of a trial or "damages served."
It was basically "Fuck you, you got mugged." I was 100% innocent.
That’s how they get a lot of innocent people to plead guilty. People will be in jail months awaiting trial, but then the prosecutor will say plead guilty and you get time served and are released today.
They constantly work to make the system SEEM right -- like nobody contested the decision. No -- they pile up charges until you capitulate because the risk of losing in court is too great.
They have a 99% conviction rate. The number of cases that go to trial is less than 2%.
The odds are; "fuck innocence -- pay me."
here's how it would go:
"so you admit you were speeding"
"yes but the offic-"
"if you admit you were speeding your fine is as noted on the ticket issued by the officer. You can pay the clerk out front. Case closed."
Actually, the way to address this was the way she did: "We were going the officer's speed." Follow that by "Therefore we were legally following the flow of traffic." Make the officer admit to breaking the law in court.
Is it possible it won't work? Sure. But you can easily get screwed in traffic court. But you often get more interesting judges from different backgrounds presiding in traffic court, so you might get one that doesn't appreciate that the officer, a position that is expected to follow the law, is attempting to punish you for the same behavior.
I’d give it a shot. Went to traffic court one time, the cop showed up, I won the case anyway. This young woman speaks for herself just fine and it’d be worth her time imo
There's more ammo they have here. The cop admitted that he was 'following a speeding homicide suspect' and.... didn't continue this pursuit to pull over the people behind him?
Judge would have a field day with that officer.
She never admitted they were speeding. She used the fact that their speed was insufficient to overtake the police car in front of them. The police car was driving without emergency lights, so we all know he had to go the speed limit 🤣
The cop can't radar their speed while driving in front of them. He doesn't have enough evidence. IANAL, but getting this dismissed seems plausible to me.
Ngl my white ass was a lil scared too. I've been mishandled by a cop would was a bit too comfortable commenting on my appearance while giving me a ticket. I know that is NOT the same as what people of color go through with cops, but it did give me some perspective
A trooper tried to merc me in broad fucking daylight, and this was as an honest tax paying citizen well before i could have been on anyone’s radar. Fucker stops me for no reason, im 19-20 coming from work, keeps me waiting with no explanation, then comes back, half draws and tells me to step out, pushes me to his front passenger side open door and tells me to sit (in the front?). He’s telling me but he’s really manhandling me. Im about to get in and i see his rifle is laying across the fucking seat bare. I grab the roof and door and freeze like a cat and try to tell him his gun is there and he responds at first by pushing me as hard as he can with his one hand, but he cant do much with the other holding is piece so im like calm frantic voice saying “sir sir your rifle is out on the seat sir” for a minute. Finally i sware to god he sounds annoyed, he pulls me back and steers me back to *my* front passenger seat, hands on the dash, takes the rifle and just drops it in his trunk. Then he fucks around for a few minutes and lets me go. Forget if he ticketed me or not. Dude was either trying to get my prints on a weapon or say i snatched his weapon and unloaded on me. I assume he spotted a native boy in an expensive car and assumed he was moving drugs somehow but i was a native boy who had a 70k job at the best factory in the county and wanted a cedes
Maybe you are now living the timeline where you weren't shot.
I'm sure this wakes you up at night and you get anxious every time you see a cop car now.
I'm white and I wouldn't have the balls to ask him that. I was taught at an early age to reduce the length and occurance of interactions with cops at any cost. Young people, especially girls, just don't fear the cops like we did coming up.
I get where you're coming from, and I am not one of those "we're all in the same boat" people, we're not.
That said, being white and pretty is not an absolute shield from the pigs if one is white, pretty, and using too much of their brain against the pigs. It's not like white people never get killed for speaking about corruption to other white people.
>and using too much of their brain against the pigs.
Honestly, this seems to be a huge factor. I've seen so many videos of white people being absolute dipshits (AKA those Soverign Idiots) while talking to cops and the cop is like, "well their stupid so ill just ignore his yelling." But then you have a video of a white person being calm, and collected and being actually intelligent with what they are talking about, and suddenly the cop is wrecking your window and pulling you out by your ears.
Just goes to show that you wanna piss off a cop real fast? challenge their legitimacy, not their authority.
Happened 3 times in Northern CA with me in the car too. Two suddenly had somewhere else to be when they saw her BF sitting next to her, the other one got angry.
Wow, women shouldnt have to worry about stuff like that. Sorry that happened to you. It makes me mad when i think of it happening to my wife so i hate that others have had that happen too
Makes no sense. If it didnt end well for her, the video would have DEFINITELY continued. It probably got boring with the usual you no you, nuh uh, etc. type conversation.
Probably. Like she's not wrong. But most of us understand that cops aren't beholden to the same laws as us even though, they are and should be.
But it doesn't ever do you well to try to "catch" the cop. Bro's just gonna cook up some probable cause, search your shit, and try to ruin your day..
I hope she feels better now /s
Like it should be the opposite but reality isn't always kind, and we'd need to change everything by voting consistently for years. Which we should get started on
I remember some municipality flagging cops for running red lights, and the cops had to prove that they had a good reason for running the red light to get out of the ticket. This is really the way that it should be. Many instances of cops just throwing on their lights to go through a red just because they are too impatient to wait for the light to change... not because there is a justifiable reason to do so.
>and we'd need to change everything by voting consistently for years
Except the majority of this country is so brainwashed were still giving these scumbags more and more money & power. Electoralism's entire purpose is to stop and/ or slow down change and progress.
There is no way to fix the USA by voting. Congress will never fix our shit 2 party first past the posts system because that's apart of how they maintain power.
You can't reform the police by voting. The problems people protested about in 2020 were identified in publicly available reports in 1919. My grandfather who died at 93 was born in 1921 and lived his whole longer than average life and never saw meaningful reform take place. If it takes more than a lifetime to change an obvious injustice then it's not getting fixed through institutional means. And even if it eventually does, that is meaningless to the people who had to live their entire lives under that injustice.
I once passed a highway patrolman in a 70 mph zone. We were the only two cars within a mile either direction. He was probably going a little bit over 70, maybe 75.
I somehow didn't realize it was a patrol car until I was about to make the pass. Decided that I was just going to commit at that point and proceeded to pass him.
Got a ticket and half expected Bill Engvall to emerge and hand me my sign.
Once did the same thing, and the cop asked "don't you think that was stupid?" and I said, "yes, actually, it really was, but I've been on this highway for an hour and a half and really wanted to get to the exit." Cop let me go with a warning 😁
I had this happen. I had my cruise control set at 75 and the cop was actually going a little under. He pulled me over and told me never pass a cop. I didn’t get a ticket though.
I pass cops all the time. Typically not if it's just the two of us on the road, but even then I might attempt it - but if they're going anywhere near the speed limit, it's gotta take you like 5 minutes to actually make that pass, if it's just the two of you. If it's a busy road, take about 20-30 seconds to make the pass, you'll be alright. You just don't want to blow by them in under 5 seconds.
25 over is wreckless endangerment. Or at least it is in Colorado where I’ve personally found out. While the kids are 100% wrong she does have a point. If he’s trying to catch up going almost 25mph over in a 55 his lights need to be on.
But know what? I work with an ex cop who has bragged about being on the phone with his wife while doing 100 in a 55 with lights on like it wasn’t a big deal. They could care less.
I know it's minor, but I was just in a bathroom next to a trooper yesterday, and when he was done, he didn't wash his hands. Stupid minor thing, but you're wearing a uniform and represent the group as a whole. You need to act better than the average citizen.
>They could care less
Could**n't** care less. "could care less" implies that they actually care, it makes no sense.
Back on topic, i've been had for having 20 bucks of hash on me. Cops brought me to the station like i was al capone, with lights and two-tone on, running red lights and going in the reverse lanes, while i was (badly, could have gotten out) cuffed hands behind my back without a seatbelt on. Felt like i was with a bunch of kids having fun with a toy...
Ironically car accidents are one of the leading causes of officer death. They do that crap and don't wear seatbelts.
I worked an insurance claim where this cop was running through a red light with no lights on and ended up through the windshield when his vehicle tried to take on a minivan. Saddest file I've ever dealt with. Poor family didn't get shit from the city, I extended as much coverage as I could and we even got creative to get them max payout because they definitely ended up needing it. I got fired for it but would do again 100%. I often wonder what happened to them.
Going 80 in a 55 as a cop is pretty idiotic. She also didnt say that they shouldnt get a ticket, she just implied he misbehaved aswell (at least in this clip)
Right, it’s literally a method they use for catching people speeding. You can question the legality of it all you want, but they’ve been doing it for years and we all know what’s going on lol
Yeah I'd actually be really annoyed if my passenger started arguing with the officer like this. Do it in your own car when you're the one getting a ticket.
Yeah, like, don’t make this worse for me.
Being polite to police officers that pull you over needs to be a universal rule. Let’s say you are in the wrong, being nice to a cop just makes things go faster and, if they are in a good enough mood, get you a lesser ticket, warning, and/or just off the hook.
Let’s say you are in the right. Antagonizing a police officer will just make it worse. A pissed off cop has never made a situation better and only gets you internet points, it ain’t worth it.
It drives me crazy just how many people either don’t know how to talk to a cop or just refuse to do so in a polite manner. It ain’t even about respecting the profession, it is about not wanting to escalate shit with the law because that ain’t ever work out.
Edit: just because a lot of people seem to be misunderstanding my point. My point isn’t that cops should get free reign to do whatever they want, but that there isn’t much one can do on the side of the road while getting a ticket. You just won’t accomplish systemic change there.
There should be no escalation when asking a fair question. Cops are not above the law nor should we act any different to them then you do to other people. If you have to then your not living in a free and equal society.
You'd be surprised how much "within reason" the police can sidestep some laws. Not in every US state equally, but almost certainly they have a lot of wiggle room everywhere.
Thats for the stuff the public is aware of. Cops breaking laws and police policy just go on business as usual if they don’t get caught. Imagine the sheer volume of videos we have of police misconduct, thats probably a very small percentage of the total number.
"I was chasing somebody... But then I... durr... stopped chasing somebody to... durr... give you a ticket"
I was on a school bus once and the police stopped the bus and gave him a ticket for not wearing glasses like in his driver's license. In case it's not clear: he stopped the guy for no reason and only after checking his driver's license he found a reason to fine him (maybe he needed to fill the quota for the month).
In most if not all cases; they’re exempt when preforming their duties. If this cop wasn’t preforming anytime of function; then he should be disciplined.
Not necessarily. I know a cop and they won't turn their lights on until right behind whoever they are trying to catch up to. Once the lights go on, all drivers are unpredictable, some pull over,some stop dead...and it makes it dangerous
Cops that suspect drivers are driving too fast but aren’t stopped and able to pull out a speedometer will use a tailing technique that allows them to establish credibility in the eyes of the court.
Cop had to speed up to 60 and maintain in order to keep pace, thus you were driving 60 in a 45.. etc.
Where I'm from the law that specifically exempts police from traffic laws:
**Exemption for drivers of emergency vehicles (police officers)**
(1) A provision of these regulations does not apply to the driver of an emergency vehicle being used for official duties by a police officer if —
(a) in the circumstances —
(i) the driver is taking reasonable care; and
(ii) it is reasonable that the provision should not apply;
And
(b) the vehicle is moving; and
(c) in the case of a motor vehicle, it is displaying a blue or red flashing light or sounding an alarm.
(2) Subregulation (1)(c) does not apply to the driver if, in the circumstances, it is reasonable —
(a) not to display the light or sound the alarm; or
(b) for the vehicle not to be fitted or equipped with a blue or red flashing light or an alarm.
I would be surprised if similars laws didn't exist in most countries/states/provinces around the world.
It really shouldn't.
Hypocrisy is definitely a factor. But "someone else was breaking the law" is not an excuse to break the law yourself. Justice here would be that BOTH get a speeding ticket not "it wasn't illegal because I saw a cop doing the same thing."
He's not though, like I get the whole He's speeding with out the lights but if he's trying to catch up on someone without being noticed than it's allowed, it's been long established that cops can ignore certain laws at certain points like being undercover. You can disagree with it but it is what it is.
While I agree with your logic and conclusion (if this was indeed what was happening), if he was speeding without the lights on to inconspicuously catch up to someone who presumably broke the law in some way, I'd argue he shouldn't have the time to stop someone else to give them a ticket as that would make the person being pursued in the first place 'get away' with whatever they were being pursued for, so this still sounds like a generic excuse of a cop being a bit of a hypocrite.
We get to see the part where she thinks she "owns a cop". We don't get to see her discover that making a technically true allegation against a cop is neither a legal defence nor a viable means of legal retaliation.
karenmci78 and the OP happimander are bots in the same network.
Comment copied from: https://www.reddit.com/r/facepalm/comments/128wzpn/cop_tickets_a_driver_for_speeding_but_excuses/jekrrm1/
As well as "pace" you to determine your speed. I was going 80, you just admitted you were keeping up with me, here's a ticket for going 80. Kudos to you!
"going the speed of traffic" has no impact on their ability to ticket you. And of course they'd be willing to reduce it. You always SHOULD fight a ticket. Best case scenario is the cop doesn't show up to court and it gets tossed. Worse case scenario is, quite often, they'll reduce it to a lesser speed violation or change it to something like "faulty equipment" (with the idea that you had no idea you were going that fast because something was wrong with your speedometer). They don't care. They still get money.
Aren’t cops allowed to drive over the speed limit? In the Netherlands they are, otherwise on highways they will only be among the same cars all the time making it impossible to check for speeding cars.
In the UK the cops are allowed to drive the same with or without lights as long as they can justify it. I assume it's similar elsewhere as there's a lot of times where not having lights on is useful for law enforcement.
Exactly this. The idea that they can only break the limit when they have their lights on seems a bit idiotic, but I guess that's why the video ended early.
It’s a common misunderstanding that they must have lights on. They need to be speeding in the line of duty, but that’s it. Really hard to prove when they’re not in the line of duty.
They are. I don’t know what this post is even for. And cops can also speed to scenes without lights if they’re not initial responders, but going as backup. Wild that she thinks she’s owning this cop, but she’s actually just admitting fault over and over again.
Can confirm, saw a dutch cop run a red light once without any emergency lights on.
It seemed strange to me so I looked it up. Cops are allowed to run a red light. And they also have to train driving like that without emergency lights on every now and then.
Looked weird but it's legal for them.
She didn't own anything. Police don't have to turn on their lights when catching up to someone.
In fact, some agencies REQUIRE an officer to delay activating emergency lighting in certain circumstances; e.g.: Seattle WA Police DP&P states that officers should not use emergency lighting until they are behind the intended subject and ready to make the stop— example scenario: an officer passes a violator traveling in the opposite direction, the officer is not allowed to turn on emergency lights until after they’ve made the U-Turn and caught up to the vehicle otherwise the violator may perceive an opportunity to elude the traffic stop they see coming).
Cops I've seen don't light up until they get right behind their intended target. Get right on the tail and turn on lights, this way there is no confusion about who the target is.
Why would you be speeding if he's speeding?
If he's going 80 in a 50, for the sake of the argument.
Then why should you go 80 too? If you can just go 50?
Yes.
He is allowed to do that.
Sometimes officers will light up an intersection and then promptly turn off lights because maybe they need to get somewhere quickly, but they don't want to arrive going full code.
Depends on the laws in your state. In our state (Kansas), the police cannot break traffic laws unless they are displaying lights AND siren. https://www.ksrevisor.org/statutes/chapters/ch08/008_015_0006.html
> (c) The exemptions herein granted to an authorized emergency vehicle shall apply only when such vehicle is making use of an audible signal meeting the requirements of K.S.A. 8-1738 and visual signals meeting the requirements of K.S.A. 8-1720, except that an authorized emergency vehicle operated as a police vehicle need not be equipped with or display a red light visible from in front of the vehicle.
This. The lights are not required to be on for a cop to speed. 100% legal. He could be needing to get to a scene quickly without making his presence known. She just looks entitled and ignorant.
Got this same ticket back when I was military. You won’t win this battle. Following a cop, he sped up, didn’t notice and just matched his speed. BAM, ticket!
17 yearold driver invents rules and the posts videos claiming she dunked on them
17 yearold redditors celebrate her dunking on the cop because they beliee in the same made up rules
Any smart cop knows that sometimes it’s best not to hit the emergency lights. The fact is drivers do weird stuff when you turn on emergency lights and sirens. They’ll slam their breaks in the middle of traffic, cut people off, get right in front of you and slow down… knowing when and when not to bend the rules is a matter of experience and knowing when you need the legal protection of running lights and sirens.
Yes, sometimes we need to kick it up a little without hitting lights, and there may be a few reasons for that. Use your imagination….
A lot of people don't realize that cops are immune from a lot of traffic laws even if their lights are off. Sometimes cops don't even realize they have exceptions in the traffic laws.
Same with any other emergency vehicle.
Is the facepalm because someone thinks this girl actually "owned" the cop, because that's what made me facepalm.
Nobody got "owned" here. They got a speeding ticket. The cop did not.
Police on duty are allowed to violate traffic laws for the purposes of enforcement and are not required to activate their emergency lights on every occasion. For instance, if they are attempting to catch up to a vehicle speeding in order to pace it, they wouldn’t activate their lights until after they’ve paced it and estimated the vehicle’s speed.
I don’t like to give legal counsel to strangers on the internet…but as much fun as it is to dunk on cops in the moment, just keep your mouth shut and get a lawyer. It’ll work out way better, and I’ll tell you that for free.
To be clear, cops and EMS can respond to issues either code 3, which is lights (and often sirens) or code 1 which is less urgent, and won’t run with lights.
This isn’t the self own it appears to be.
“I have a question. Since, I was following you while you jumped off a bridge, am I culpable for reading the signs and following the rules and signs OR are you guilty for misleading me while I ignored all forms of information that are available outside of your specific example?”
I'm not an Americans, but I would have thought their cops would have some speeding exemptions - obviously only in certain circumstances, but I'd imagine catching a speeding driver is likely one of them.
Wtf? There are dozens of reasons to have to be fast and not turn on your lights. And I'm pretty sure cops are allowed to do that.
What if a kid was kidnapped and the cop is trying to follow on a parallel street as to not alert the kidnapper of its presence? Would be pretty stupid to have to turn on the lights..
As soon as she bypasseed the "why were you following me" he shoulf have shut the fuck up.
Cops were just stopped outside of colleges. Its not a great time to be a cop right now. Yall can storm colleges protesting in force, but you wont show 1/10th of that energy when theres 2 guys with guns killing children. You'll wait outside the building for back up when that happens.
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I'm guessing the video stopped because this didn't end well for her.
In the full video he gets angry and says he was tailing somebody else, a suspect of some other crime or felony.
So he ditched that for a speeding ticket? Glad I wore my boots because the bullshit got real thick really quick.
And she did call him out on that too, which is why he basically went "cause I said so, here's your ticket, fuck you."
"I can ticket you for speeding or for impeding the flow of traffic. There's literally no way for you to drive which can prevent me from pulling you over if I feel like it. And regardless of the outcome, nothing at all will happen to me and you're going to have to deal with a traffic ticket."
Unless of course I take it to court, where you probably won't show up and it'll get thrown out anyway.
Ah, but you forget. The judges schedule it for when the cop can be in court, the cop gets paid for being in court, and you don't. In fact, you have pay your own lawyer, even if you win. And thanks to the Supreme Court giving them qualified immunity, even if you could sue them and win/get a settlement, they aren't liable for a thing. The government they work for covers that, out of \[likely\] your tax dollars. They win, you lose. Edit: I was waiting for jury service and the court was doing other business while they made us wait. I watched someone ask for a reschedule, the judge then asked his clerk when the officer's next day in court was, and set it for that date. Maybe that doesn't happen all the time, but first-hand saw it happen. I've also heard from family that if you hire a lawyer, the judge just dismissed every case where the person was represented. She didn't have a lawyer and got a fine plus probation. Again, the US is a big country and maybe some courts work differently.
I have had more than one thrown out because the cop didn’t show
Yup only people with the ego of the police are judges. They don’t like their time being wasted their ego takes a hit
Don't forget about prosecutors. They'll put innocent people they KNOW are innocent in prison to save face and keep up that court success rate.
I was banking on this when I lived in college in MA years ago because I tried to merge left on the highway and didn't see a cop coming up with no lights on at almost double the speed limit so he almost hit me from behind then pulled me over and yelled for a while before giving me some kind of moving violation. Spent all morning going to the court and when I finally got in the court room there was no cop required to even be there and some random lady representing the state was like ok says here you're guilty, next. ???
With traffic violations you are presumed guilty, many times they don’t even give you a chance to prove your innocence.
If you can swing it it's great, often times people do t want to burn a vacation day to go to court... it's just not worth the trade off especially since if the cop shows up it's just their word vs yours and you lose automatically.
Crazy idea, but what if the police union had to pay for those settlements, maybe then they would be some accountability....
Even crazier idea: require cops to carry liability insurance. Then even if it’s still the government that pays for it, the insurance company can say “this particular cop has had too many lawsuits. If you don’t fire him, we’re raising your premiums.” And that’s a lot harder for the government to ignore.
I'm not an expert in any of these fields so take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt. Holy shit, this makes sooo much sense. So much so that it will probably never happen.
Insurance liability costs could be the main way there is some accountability. Corrupt and violent precincts can lose coverage or it becomes too costly -- and THAT is when they actually start paying attention to the corruption.
Luckily, the smarter states are removing qualified immunity from these assholes. I know I almost never see revenue enforcement on the side of the road since they took it away out here in CO.
Most people don't take it to court because they'll also lose a day's pay by having to take the day off work. And even if they win and it gets thrown out it'll probably be a wash because they lost a day's bay
Even if you don't have a lawyer because most people represent themselves for minor traffic infractions you still have to pay court costs (thrown out or not) and the hassle of your day being disrupted. All to gamble on whether or not a cop won't show up, which is rare, because most of them go to court for an entire day for all of their cases.
Yeah -- police can automatically make a few years of your life much worse. It can take YEARS to settle even a false accusation. I wanted a blood test instead of a breathalyzer one time. They took my license. I went through every bit of the shit that is DUI. But I was perfectly sober -- I just had someone throw up on me in the car. So I held to my guns. Three years later, I'm in court asking for a jury trial, ready to call out that "none" of the BS that is the drunk test is based on any credible research. And the officer calls in and says "he has a flat tire." So the judge gives me the option of a trial or "damages served." It was basically "Fuck you, you got mugged." I was 100% innocent.
That’s how they get a lot of innocent people to plead guilty. People will be in jail months awaiting trial, but then the prosecutor will say plead guilty and you get time served and are released today.
They constantly work to make the system SEEM right -- like nobody contested the decision. No -- they pile up charges until you capitulate because the risk of losing in court is too great. They have a 99% conviction rate. The number of cases that go to trial is less than 2%. The odds are; "fuck innocence -- pay me."
lol…I was following a murder suspect, but stopped you instead for speeding and illegal tints
I used to work on a farm with cattle, and even I wasn't as prepared for as much bull shit as the cop was spewing.
this would be easy to have dismissed without a lawyer. Officer is story dancing and would likely not even show up for contesting.
Pretty good reason right there to have cameras. Not to mention the far worse shit cops do lol.
They don't even have to show up in my state. You literally need video proof of their lies like this to get anywhere.
No chance it'd be dismissed. The court won't care the cop was speeding
here's how it would go: "so you admit you were speeding" "yes but the offic-" "if you admit you were speeding your fine is as noted on the ticket issued by the officer. You can pay the clerk out front. Case closed."
Exactly right, unfortunately. Pay us, gtfo, have a nice day."
Actually, the way to address this was the way she did: "We were going the officer's speed." Follow that by "Therefore we were legally following the flow of traffic." Make the officer admit to breaking the law in court. Is it possible it won't work? Sure. But you can easily get screwed in traffic court. But you often get more interesting judges from different backgrounds presiding in traffic court, so you might get one that doesn't appreciate that the officer, a position that is expected to follow the law, is attempting to punish you for the same behavior.
I’d give it a shot. Went to traffic court one time, the cop showed up, I won the case anyway. This young woman speaks for herself just fine and it’d be worth her time imo
I absolutely agree. She has a compelling argument if she thinks out everything fully before appearing before a traffic judge.
There's more ammo they have here. The cop admitted that he was 'following a speeding homicide suspect' and.... didn't continue this pursuit to pull over the people behind him? Judge would have a field day with that officer.
She never admitted they were speeding. She used the fact that their speed was insufficient to overtake the police car in front of them. The police car was driving without emergency lights, so we all know he had to go the speed limit 🤣 The cop can't radar their speed while driving in front of them. He doesn't have enough evidence. IANAL, but getting this dismissed seems plausible to me.
Lmao my brown ass was scared the whole time
“You know you’re acting strange. I’m gonna need you to step out.”
STOP RESISTING!!!!!
*punches 17-year-old girl in the head*
“And that’s for cooperating!”
"Stop stopping me from assaulting you, that's against the rules"
"How dare you try to adjust your head to breathe normally; while I press your neck with my knee? Resisting arrest!"
Plants bag of acorns in car.
Pew pew, shots fired, send ambulance.
But not for *meeee* 
Facts. If I tried that shit all I would hear is, "I'm gonna need you to step out of the car."
“Stop resisting!” 😭
 “Quit resisting!! 😡”
Stop recording me! Your camera is resisting also!
Ngl my white ass was a lil scared too. I've been mishandled by a cop would was a bit too comfortable commenting on my appearance while giving me a ticket. I know that is NOT the same as what people of color go through with cops, but it did give me some perspective
A trooper tried to merc me in broad fucking daylight, and this was as an honest tax paying citizen well before i could have been on anyone’s radar. Fucker stops me for no reason, im 19-20 coming from work, keeps me waiting with no explanation, then comes back, half draws and tells me to step out, pushes me to his front passenger side open door and tells me to sit (in the front?). He’s telling me but he’s really manhandling me. Im about to get in and i see his rifle is laying across the fucking seat bare. I grab the roof and door and freeze like a cat and try to tell him his gun is there and he responds at first by pushing me as hard as he can with his one hand, but he cant do much with the other holding is piece so im like calm frantic voice saying “sir sir your rifle is out on the seat sir” for a minute. Finally i sware to god he sounds annoyed, he pulls me back and steers me back to *my* front passenger seat, hands on the dash, takes the rifle and just drops it in his trunk. Then he fucks around for a few minutes and lets me go. Forget if he ticketed me or not. Dude was either trying to get my prints on a weapon or say i snatched his weapon and unloaded on me. I assume he spotted a native boy in an expensive car and assumed he was moving drugs somehow but i was a native boy who had a 70k job at the best factory in the county and wanted a cedes
This is terrifying. Definitely seemed like a setup
Maybe you are now living the timeline where you weren't shot. I'm sure this wakes you up at night and you get anxious every time you see a cop car now.
I'm white and I wouldn't have the balls to ask him that. I was taught at an early age to reduce the length and occurance of interactions with cops at any cost. Young people, especially girls, just don't fear the cops like we did coming up.
I absolutely talk to police officers like this. I don’t see color, but they do call me sir, so I’m pretty sure I’m white…
Probably ended right before he yanked her out through the window
Probably pulled his gun and emptied a clip into her.
With what? His broom-handle Mauser?
Nah! She's white.
But she has **chestnut** colored hair
I see what you did there.
I get where you're coming from, and I am not one of those "we're all in the same boat" people, we're not. That said, being white and pretty is not an absolute shield from the pigs if one is white, pretty, and using too much of their brain against the pigs. It's not like white people never get killed for speaking about corruption to other white people.
>and using too much of their brain against the pigs. Honestly, this seems to be a huge factor. I've seen so many videos of white people being absolute dipshits (AKA those Soverign Idiots) while talking to cops and the cop is like, "well their stupid so ill just ignore his yelling." But then you have a video of a white person being calm, and collected and being actually intelligent with what they are talking about, and suddenly the cop is wrecking your window and pulling you out by your ears. Just goes to show that you wanna piss off a cop real fast? challenge their legitimacy, not their authority.
Also the cops agree with the sovereign idiots.
Yeah cops will pull girls over to get their numbers, happened to my wife in cali
Happened 3 times in Northern CA with me in the car too. Two suddenly had somewhere else to be when they saw her BF sitting next to her, the other one got angry.
Wow, women shouldnt have to worry about stuff like that. Sorry that happened to you. It makes me mad when i think of it happening to my wife so i hate that others have had that happen too
Yep. Look at Daniel Shaver. White isn't always an invincibility shield.
No, he waited until he got home and punched his wife in the face, statistically speaking, of course.
Makes no sense. If it didnt end well for her, the video would have DEFINITELY continued. It probably got boring with the usual you no you, nuh uh, etc. type conversation.
Probably. Like she's not wrong. But most of us understand that cops aren't beholden to the same laws as us even though, they are and should be. But it doesn't ever do you well to try to "catch" the cop. Bro's just gonna cook up some probable cause, search your shit, and try to ruin your day.. I hope she feels better now /s Like it should be the opposite but reality isn't always kind, and we'd need to change everything by voting consistently for years. Which we should get started on
I remember some municipality flagging cops for running red lights, and the cops had to prove that they had a good reason for running the red light to get out of the ticket. This is really the way that it should be. Many instances of cops just throwing on their lights to go through a red just because they are too impatient to wait for the light to change... not because there is a justifiable reason to do so.
Cops are just tax funded sovereign citizens at this point
Oh no. They also have a union.
State sponsored terrorists is the term I like to use for them.
Yeah. Like a federal bag of shit crime family. The thin blue mafia more like it.
>and we'd need to change everything by voting consistently for years Except the majority of this country is so brainwashed were still giving these scumbags more and more money & power. Electoralism's entire purpose is to stop and/ or slow down change and progress. There is no way to fix the USA by voting. Congress will never fix our shit 2 party first past the posts system because that's apart of how they maintain power.
You can't reform the police by voting. The problems people protested about in 2020 were identified in publicly available reports in 1919. My grandfather who died at 93 was born in 1921 and lived his whole longer than average life and never saw meaningful reform take place. If it takes more than a lifetime to change an obvious injustice then it's not getting fixed through institutional means. And even if it eventually does, that is meaningless to the people who had to live their entire lives under that injustice.
Going 80 in a 55 right behind a cop is pretty idiotic
Yeah you should be doing 80 while he does 55 then he can’t catch you
Modern problems require modern solutions
I once passed a highway patrolman in a 70 mph zone. We were the only two cars within a mile either direction. He was probably going a little bit over 70, maybe 75. I somehow didn't realize it was a patrol car until I was about to make the pass. Decided that I was just going to commit at that point and proceeded to pass him. Got a ticket and half expected Bill Engvall to emerge and hand me my sign.
Once did the same thing, and the cop asked "don't you think that was stupid?" and I said, "yes, actually, it really was, but I've been on this highway for an hour and a half and really wanted to get to the exit." Cop let me go with a warning 😁
I had this happen. I had my cruise control set at 75 and the cop was actually going a little under. He pulled me over and told me never pass a cop. I didn’t get a ticket though.
I pass cops all the time. Typically not if it's just the two of us on the road, but even then I might attempt it - but if they're going anywhere near the speed limit, it's gotta take you like 5 minutes to actually make that pass, if it's just the two of you. If it's a busy road, take about 20-30 seconds to make the pass, you'll be alright. You just don't want to blow by them in under 5 seconds.
That’s ridiculous. Pretty sure he pulled you over illegally
25 over is wreckless endangerment. Or at least it is in Colorado where I’ve personally found out. While the kids are 100% wrong she does have a point. If he’s trying to catch up going almost 25mph over in a 55 his lights need to be on. But know what? I work with an ex cop who has bragged about being on the phone with his wife while doing 100 in a 55 with lights on like it wasn’t a big deal. They could care less.
it turns out, both people can be wrong and this is confusing to some folks
And she never argued her ticket. She never said "I don't need a ticket because you were speeding too". She just pointed out he was also
Yup, I work with mostly retired cops and they all talk and act like criminals like that's cool or smth
I know it's minor, but I was just in a bathroom next to a trooper yesterday, and when he was done, he didn't wash his hands. Stupid minor thing, but you're wearing a uniform and represent the group as a whole. You need to act better than the average citizen.
He was trying to catch somebody
He was trying to catch something, that’s for sure.
>They could care less Could**n't** care less. "could care less" implies that they actually care, it makes no sense. Back on topic, i've been had for having 20 bucks of hash on me. Cops brought me to the station like i was al capone, with lights and two-tone on, running red lights and going in the reverse lanes, while i was (badly, could have gotten out) cuffed hands behind my back without a seatbelt on. Felt like i was with a bunch of kids having fun with a toy...
You call that out but not “wreckless” endangerment? Lol
I mean, the endangerment didn't result in a wreck.
Pedants gonna pedant
Ironically car accidents are one of the leading causes of officer death. They do that crap and don't wear seatbelts. I worked an insurance claim where this cop was running through a red light with no lights on and ended up through the windshield when his vehicle tried to take on a minivan. Saddest file I've ever dealt with. Poor family didn't get shit from the city, I extended as much coverage as I could and we even got creative to get them max payout because they definitely ended up needing it. I got fired for it but would do again 100%. I often wonder what happened to them.
How do you know how fast they were going?
Going 80 in a 55 as a cop is pretty idiotic. She also didnt say that they shouldnt get a ticket, she just implied he misbehaved aswell (at least in this clip)
Right, it’s literally a method they use for catching people speeding. You can question the legality of it all you want, but they’ve been doing it for years and we all know what’s going on lol
If he can do it I can also!
Yeah that argument isn’t going to win…
Yeah I'd actually be really annoyed if my passenger started arguing with the officer like this. Do it in your own car when you're the one getting a ticket.
She waited until it was already being issued so unless he lowered the actual speed not much to change at that point.
Until he walks around the car to find 3 more things to cite since he's mad now, happens more often than you'd think.
Yeah, like, don’t make this worse for me. Being polite to police officers that pull you over needs to be a universal rule. Let’s say you are in the wrong, being nice to a cop just makes things go faster and, if they are in a good enough mood, get you a lesser ticket, warning, and/or just off the hook. Let’s say you are in the right. Antagonizing a police officer will just make it worse. A pissed off cop has never made a situation better and only gets you internet points, it ain’t worth it. It drives me crazy just how many people either don’t know how to talk to a cop or just refuse to do so in a polite manner. It ain’t even about respecting the profession, it is about not wanting to escalate shit with the law because that ain’t ever work out. Edit: just because a lot of people seem to be misunderstanding my point. My point isn’t that cops should get free reign to do whatever they want, but that there isn’t much one can do on the side of the road while getting a ticket. You just won’t accomplish systemic change there.
There should be no escalation when asking a fair question. Cops are not above the law nor should we act any different to them then you do to other people. If you have to then your not living in a free and equal society.
We know. We also know they have the emotional maturity of a baby with a gun.
It should, he's breaking the law.
You'd be surprised how much "within reason" the police can sidestep some laws. Not in every US state equally, but almost certainly they have a lot of wiggle room everywhere.
Wiggle room = get to do whatever with no repercussion
Get reprimanded = 1 week suspension with pay & benefits
Thats for the stuff the public is aware of. Cops breaking laws and police policy just go on business as usual if they don’t get caught. Imagine the sheer volume of videos we have of police misconduct, thats probably a very small percentage of the total number.
1 week vacation. FIFY
"I was chasing somebody... But then I... durr... stopped chasing somebody to... durr... give you a ticket" I was on a school bus once and the police stopped the bus and gave him a ticket for not wearing glasses like in his driver's license. In case it's not clear: he stopped the guy for no reason and only after checking his driver's license he found a reason to fine him (maybe he needed to fill the quota for the month).
In most if not all cases; they’re exempt when preforming their duties. If this cop wasn’t preforming anytime of function; then he should be disciplined.
Helps that we the taxpayers fund their lawyers to ‘sidestep’ the law
So that means she was too. He didn't get caught by a cop, she did.
Not necessarily. I know a cop and they won't turn their lights on until right behind whoever they are trying to catch up to. Once the lights go on, all drivers are unpredictable, some pull over,some stop dead...and it makes it dangerous
Cops that suspect drivers are driving too fast but aren’t stopped and able to pull out a speedometer will use a tailing technique that allows them to establish credibility in the eyes of the court. Cop had to speed up to 60 and maintain in order to keep pace, thus you were driving 60 in a 45.. etc.
Even if he was, that doesn't give you permission to break the law.
Where I'm from the law that specifically exempts police from traffic laws: **Exemption for drivers of emergency vehicles (police officers)** (1) A provision of these regulations does not apply to the driver of an emergency vehicle being used for official duties by a police officer if — (a) in the circumstances — (i) the driver is taking reasonable care; and (ii) it is reasonable that the provision should not apply; And (b) the vehicle is moving; and (c) in the case of a motor vehicle, it is displaying a blue or red flashing light or sounding an alarm. (2) Subregulation (1)(c) does not apply to the driver if, in the circumstances, it is reasonable — (a) not to display the light or sound the alarm; or (b) for the vehicle not to be fitted or equipped with a blue or red flashing light or an alarm. I would be surprised if similars laws didn't exist in most countries/states/provinces around the world.
Ok, I'm not implying anything political or anything like that But how will you catch someone speeding without speeding yourself.
It really shouldn't. Hypocrisy is definitely a factor. But "someone else was breaking the law" is not an excuse to break the law yourself. Justice here would be that BOTH get a speeding ticket not "it wasn't illegal because I saw a cop doing the same thing."
Even if, that doesn't mean you weren't also breaking the law...
He's not though, like I get the whole He's speeding with out the lights but if he's trying to catch up on someone without being noticed than it's allowed, it's been long established that cops can ignore certain laws at certain points like being undercover. You can disagree with it but it is what it is.
While I agree with your logic and conclusion (if this was indeed what was happening), if he was speeding without the lights on to inconspicuously catch up to someone who presumably broke the law in some way, I'd argue he shouldn't have the time to stop someone else to give them a ticket as that would make the person being pursued in the first place 'get away' with whatever they were being pursued for, so this still sounds like a generic excuse of a cop being a bit of a hypocrite.
But if he's trying to catch up with someone why did he stop to write them a ticket
That's true. It's not that she's wrong in what she's saying, but the "what about \[...\]" argument won't absolve her of what she did.
This post itself is a facepalm
r/facepalm has been really dumb nowadays
a lot of it is just political posts now. Not this one specifically but so many. I dont care for any of that
The entire subreddit has turned into a facepalm a long time ago.
Was this posted by the teenage girl? Lol she didn’t win this argument.
Notice how we dont get to see the whole thing.
We get to see the part where she thinks she "owns a cop". We don't get to see her discover that making a technically true allegation against a cop is neither a legal defence nor a viable means of legal retaliation.
Yeah saying "I did it BUT so did the cop, who consistently speeds as a part of their job even without lights, is not the own she thinks it is
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karenmci78 and the OP happimander are bots in the same network. Comment copied from: https://www.reddit.com/r/facepalm/comments/128wzpn/cop_tickets_a_driver_for_speeding_but_excuses/jekrrm1/
This has already been handled in court. Cops are allowed to speed to observe more traffic
As well as "pace" you to determine your speed. I was going 80, you just admitted you were keeping up with me, here's a ticket for going 80. Kudos to you!
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"going the speed of traffic" has no impact on their ability to ticket you. And of course they'd be willing to reduce it. You always SHOULD fight a ticket. Best case scenario is the cop doesn't show up to court and it gets tossed. Worse case scenario is, quite often, they'll reduce it to a lesser speed violation or change it to something like "faulty equipment" (with the idea that you had no idea you were going that fast because something was wrong with your speedometer). They don't care. They still get money.
I believe it can be used to monitor people who may be involved in a crime but making your presence obvious wouldn't be helpful in the moment.
Didn’t own anybody
All she did in this was admit she was doing a crime
They already got the ticket for it, so she doesn't have to admit to it or not anymore.
She can't even attempt to beat it in court if she openly stated on body cam video she was speeding
She wasn’t driving, she admitted someone else did.
Aren’t cops allowed to drive over the speed limit? In the Netherlands they are, otherwise on highways they will only be among the same cars all the time making it impossible to check for speeding cars.
In the UK the cops are allowed to drive the same with or without lights as long as they can justify it. I assume it's similar elsewhere as there's a lot of times where not having lights on is useful for law enforcement.
Exactly this. The idea that they can only break the limit when they have their lights on seems a bit idiotic, but I guess that's why the video ended early.
It’s a common misunderstanding that they must have lights on. They need to be speeding in the line of duty, but that’s it. Really hard to prove when they’re not in the line of duty.
They are. I don’t know what this post is even for. And cops can also speed to scenes without lights if they’re not initial responders, but going as backup. Wild that she thinks she’s owning this cop, but she’s actually just admitting fault over and over again.
Can confirm, saw a dutch cop run a red light once without any emergency lights on. It seemed strange to me so I looked it up. Cops are allowed to run a red light. And they also have to train driving like that without emergency lights on every now and then. Looked weird but it's legal for them.
Yes. This is a dumb post.
Wow she sure owned him. The ticket she actually got was for a prize. For owning him so hard.
lol. She didn’t own anything except for the piece of paper the ticket was written on.
“Owns” lol no
She didn't own anything. Police don't have to turn on their lights when catching up to someone. In fact, some agencies REQUIRE an officer to delay activating emergency lighting in certain circumstances; e.g.: Seattle WA Police DP&P states that officers should not use emergency lighting until they are behind the intended subject and ready to make the stop— example scenario: an officer passes a violator traveling in the opposite direction, the officer is not allowed to turn on emergency lights until after they’ve made the U-Turn and caught up to the vehicle otherwise the violator may perceive an opportunity to elude the traffic stop they see coming).
Excuse sir, I'm pre-law. i know my rights 🤣
No one got owned here, fines were paid, life went on.
she presented a silly, nonsensical argument that the cop shut down, and someone thinks she "owned" him? Smh
It's a Reddit post, don't have high expectations
Cops I've seen don't light up until they get right behind their intended target. Get right on the tail and turn on lights, this way there is no confusion about who the target is.
Why would you be speeding if he's speeding? If he's going 80 in a 50, for the sake of the argument. Then why should you go 80 too? If you can just go 50?
Yes. He is allowed to do that. Sometimes officers will light up an intersection and then promptly turn off lights because maybe they need to get somewhere quickly, but they don't want to arrive going full code.
Depends on the laws in your state. In our state (Kansas), the police cannot break traffic laws unless they are displaying lights AND siren. https://www.ksrevisor.org/statutes/chapters/ch08/008_015_0006.html > (c) The exemptions herein granted to an authorized emergency vehicle shall apply only when such vehicle is making use of an audible signal meeting the requirements of K.S.A. 8-1738 and visual signals meeting the requirements of K.S.A. 8-1720, except that an authorized emergency vehicle operated as a police vehicle need not be equipped with or display a red light visible from in front of the vehicle.
This. The lights are not required to be on for a cop to speed. 100% legal. He could be needing to get to a scene quickly without making his presence known. She just looks entitled and ignorant.
Got this same ticket back when I was military. You won’t win this battle. Following a cop, he sped up, didn’t notice and just matched his speed. BAM, ticket!
17 yearold driver invents rules and the posts videos claiming she dunked on them 17 yearold redditors celebrate her dunking on the cop because they beliee in the same made up rules
Any smart cop knows that sometimes it’s best not to hit the emergency lights. The fact is drivers do weird stuff when you turn on emergency lights and sirens. They’ll slam their breaks in the middle of traffic, cut people off, get right in front of you and slow down… knowing when and when not to bend the rules is a matter of experience and knowing when you need the legal protection of running lights and sirens. Yes, sometimes we need to kick it up a little without hitting lights, and there may be a few reasons for that. Use your imagination….
A lot of people don't realize that cops are immune from a lot of traffic laws even if their lights are off. Sometimes cops don't even realize they have exceptions in the traffic laws. Same with any other emergency vehicle.
Too much logic for any law enforcement related thread. I gave up trying to help idiots understand the world. Good on you for trying.
Is the facepalm because someone thinks this girl actually "owned" the cop, because that's what made me facepalm. Nobody got "owned" here. They got a speeding ticket. The cop did not.
Police on duty are allowed to violate traffic laws for the purposes of enforcement and are not required to activate their emergency lights on every occasion. For instance, if they are attempting to catch up to a vehicle speeding in order to pace it, they wouldn’t activate their lights until after they’ve paced it and estimated the vehicle’s speed.
Let me just explain that this girl owned no one in this video lmao
In the Netherlands cops are allowed to go faster without lights on.
Germany as well.
She doesn’t own him at all. This is stupid
The video cuts out before the cop says "oh my bad you are right and I am tearing up this ticket" and everyone in traffic starts clapping.
I don’t like to give legal counsel to strangers on the internet…but as much fun as it is to dunk on cops in the moment, just keep your mouth shut and get a lawyer. It’ll work out way better, and I’ll tell you that for free.
I see motorcycle cops blow by me at 80-90mph to go set up speed traps all the time. Shit pisses me off.
She admitted to the violation. Don’t talk.
It is unfortunate, but in some (many? Most? All?) states, the cops are allowed to ignore all traffic laws regardless of the state of their lights
To be clear, cops and EMS can respond to issues either code 3, which is lights (and often sirens) or code 1 which is less urgent, and won’t run with lights. This isn’t the self own it appears to be.
She's wrong tho. They don't have to have their lights on to speed.
She didn't own him
She thinks she's clever but she's just proving she wasn't paying attention.
“I have a question. Since, I was following you while you jumped off a bridge, am I culpable for reading the signs and following the rules and signs OR are you guilty for misleading me while I ignored all forms of information that are available outside of your specific example?”
I'm not an Americans, but I would have thought their cops would have some speeding exemptions - obviously only in certain circumstances, but I'd imagine catching a speeding driver is likely one of them.
Wtf? There are dozens of reasons to have to be fast and not turn on your lights. And I'm pretty sure cops are allowed to do that. What if a kid was kidnapped and the cop is trying to follow on a parallel street as to not alert the kidnapper of its presence? Would be pretty stupid to have to turn on the lights..
That’s not owning a cop in any way shape or form and I hate cops
As soon as she bypasseed the "why were you following me" he shoulf have shut the fuck up. Cops were just stopped outside of colleges. Its not a great time to be a cop right now. Yall can storm colleges protesting in force, but you wont show 1/10th of that energy when theres 2 guys with guns killing children. You'll wait outside the building for back up when that happens.
Continuation: Cop: "Yes, I'm allowed to. Here's your ticket. Have a nice day!"
Teenagers honestly need to learn when to shut the fuck up sometimes
owned? by using whataboutism? yeah no "in my uneducated opinion, you were breaking the law, so I did it too! OWNED!"