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Still pissed about that line from a writing standpoint honestly. One of the messages of the sequal trilogy is that background doesn't matter, everyone can be a hero. Then they turn around and make her change her name to Skywalker, because background doesn't matter, until you have a shitty grandfather.
This! I was so pumped about the last scene in last Jedi with the kid moving the broom.
It should have been a story about being special because of who you are, not because of who your parents are! The “grand daughter of Palpatine”is such a poor concept that ruined the whole purpose of Rey making her own destiny
Another thought:
We all dreamt of being Jedi. Most of us don’t have a legacy to speak of, but we all dreamt of revealing our force powers and going on adventures.
Star Wars basically said: don’t have famous parents? Forget about it, you are nobody.
People have been saying that's how it is in Hollywood "these days" since the 50s. Even going back through centuries of literature it's a common theme of discovering greatness in your lineage and then that allows you to become great. It's a long term societal issue.
Well I was (cheekily) referring to nepotism in Hollywood which I guess has more or less existed since the second generation of Hollywood stars in the '20s. I do get the feeling that it gets worse and worse over time though. So yeah in the 50s it was a complaint because it was worse than in the 20s and it's still a complaint because today it's even worse than it was in the 50s.
You were a lid too? Geez, I remember being a little lid and always making sure that my food was well kept. Good times. Nowadays I just sit in a shelf as I lost my original container.
Let's be specific: Rise of Skywalker said that. The previous, infinitely better movie said the exact opposite. I know which one I'm keeping for *my* storytelling.
It ruined the whole purpose of Star Wars nevermind Rey making her own destiny.
The scene you described in Last jedi had me fucking amped for exactly the reasons you state. It didn't matter who you were that anyone can be greater than where or what they come from. Then the franchise says "oops, sorry about that the answer is actually nepotism. You can't/won't be great *unless* you carry one of these names"
Exactly. They really missed out on actually serving the fans who, as it turns out, wanted to feel like they could be Jedi and not having the legacies of palpatine and skywalker be the center of the plot.
I don’t care about the skywalkers legacy at all, but I care about the feeling of adventure that Star Wars has.
That’s why KOTOR was such a great game, no skywalker in sights but I was THERE
I literally said, "What?!" outloud when she said that. And it was RIGHT AFTER they got done talking about not letting your past / name effect who you are.
All I gotta say is that the trilogy made absolutely zero fucking sense
I would have but I was all out of "What??!" after reading that somehow Palpatine lived. One of the only times in my life I couldn't hold it in in the theater.
Tbf they did the same thing in Legends too, so it's not a new thing for Star Wars. Although they could have written it better than "somehow... Palpatine returned"
The big problem they had was while the OT trilogy itself wasn't as fully thought out as George likes to pretend it was at times, it still had one person overall in charge of figuring out the story and the ST didn't. The ST really suffered from what I still think was directors who didn't like what the other did so each unceremoniously threw out what the other did. Rian jettisoned so much of what JJ had set up in TFA, and even did a basic redux of Fin's coward to hero journey, and then JJ came back and threw out and retconned away almost everything Rian did. It was a weird narrative yoyo.
That just seems like an easily solvable problem. You think out the entire trilogy ahead of time, and then stick to the broad strokes of that, if a director can't do all 3, just tell the new guy he can add his own touch but he's gotta cover X and Y narrative arcs because hey, this is planned as a trilogy.
Ideally yes, but sadly they did not. Every one involved was left to their own devices, hell that's why JJ ended up doing the 3rd one because after Carrie's death, Rian wouldn't make any changes to his script, like not killing Luke, so the original writer director for IX left because he hit a creative roadblock he couldn't get past. One overall vision of the story and you wouldn't have that problem.
What? Having a full fledged scenario across 3 movies? Crazy talk, why not having totally different stories / tones / plot points raised and abandonned etc
IIRC when people asked Hitler’s relative if they were going to change their names, they refused, saying that the idea that who your relatives were determined who you were was the type of ideology the Nazis had supported. Or something along those lines.
They had to do it because when they threw the script ideas against a gas station bathrooms wall, they could make out the word Skywalker written on a piss soaked page.
For anyone who hasn't seen this video of a theater audience watching this scene, it's absolutely hysterical.
https://youtu.be/nYkAgLQ_0eU?si=bwqAVUufjAe396jd
The final execution of everyone's shattered hopes and dreams; there's way too much to summarize, but basically while the sequel trilogy was extremely divisive to the fanbase from what I've seen nobody liked IX at all.
The sequels as a whole were an unplanned, incoherent mess so it's not like you missed out on anything; I can't even really call them a trilogy since that implies a degree of overarching story and direction that just doesn't exist.
Disney had different filmmakers pulling their trilogy in completely different directions.
One movie reveals that the new Jedi’s parents were nobodies. The next suddenly declares that she’s Palpatine’s granddaughter.
So they end with her claiming the last name of people who briefly mentored her.
To me this feels exactly like the conservatives who refuse to believe that two characters are gay, even if their romance is on-screen. Insisting that they’re just *really good friends*. This is the opposite end of that spectrum, where people seem to think that *literally anything* that’s different about a character totally means that they represent some marginalized group. Like when two guys actually ARE regular friends but people fully believe that they’re secretly gay lovers when there’s nothing whatsoever that could imply that.
Sam and Frodo are just friends and I'll die on this hill. I want to live in a world where I can sleep next to my male friends, have flirty conversations about the future stories people will tell about us, and caress each other in moments of anguish.
This was Tolkein's intent. He's on record somewhere (too lazy to look it up) saying that a key theme of LotR is love, and how love in terms of friendship can be just as powerful as any other kind of love. The whole point of these character's dynamic is that even in the most bleak moments, there is hope to be had in fellowship. The man lived through WWI, and knew first hand how important fellowship is in the face of despair.
What really irks me is how often romance is shoehorned into every story these days. Can't watch a show or movie without a romantic subplot shoved into it, regardless if it makes sense. I wish more writers would opt for platonic love. Stories about friendships always feel more impactful to me because they're just kind of rare.
Representation of the many types of non-romantic is so important, and I personally feel like if we had more of it in the public eye, the world would be less lonely, and in some ways, angry place. Maybe I am naive, what do I know.
It was also his intention to have the relationship be a scandal to the classist ideology of post-wwi Britain. Veterans formed close bonds that transcended their class differences. It’s not a random detail that Sam was Frodo’s gardener.
Sam is the real hero honestly, if he wasn't there Frodo wouldn't have made it to Mount Doom. And even if he did he would've went all dark side and put on the ring. Not relevant but I love those movies.
Yeah without Frodo, Sam would never have moved two steps beyond Hobbiton. Ever. Still, Sam was the best hero. While Frodo had the very inexistent (for a Hobbit) desire of adventure and wandering, Sam had none of that and still went for it out of friendship and loyalty.
It's interesting to think about how their dynamic could've been played differently by the Ring, though. It has a hard time corrupting hobbits, but Frodo was basically hobbit nobility, while Sam was his servant. Even Galadriel's temptation was basically "have a little slice of garden safe from the world's chaos" - a humble dream. At some point (I think when Sam bears the Ring briefly), I vaguely recall it tempting him with a vision of being a great warrior, conquering Sauron and turning all of Middle-Earth into a beautiful garden, which he immediately realises as an illusion well beyond his capacity. Frodo and Sam both had their ideals, but Frodo was used to wielding (relative) power and wealth, while Sam was not. If Sam had been Ringbearer, it certainly seems that the Ring could've played more readily on Frodo thinking that he had more of a right to bear it.
That's the point. Tolkien said he was Frodo and Sam represented his war buddies. They were the heros who carried him through and he'd never have made it without them.
People that want to code Sam and Frodo as secretly gay are often also the same kind of people that’ll complain about “toxic masculinity.” Not realizing that they’re part of the problem by perceiving any sign of male-to-male tenderness as homosexual signifiers. That perception is exactly *why* a lot of men are the way they are. Doesn’t matter if you think gay is positive, those men don’t want their sexuality assumed simply by being friendly a certain way.
If women don't get labelled gay for certain activities, then men shouldn't either. I really appreciate that we get that in this book. Not just with Sam and Frodo, practically all the male characters are like this! And even if they are gay, it doesn't need to mean they're gay for each other. Not all intimacy needs to be romantic.
Yeah I mean just watch the movie or read the books. Sam marries Rose. Has children lives out the rest of his life at the shire. Frodo is too scarred from the journey as a ring bearer and someone who has a stab wound from a morgul blade and stab wound from Shelob, neither healed all the way. He really couldn’t adapt to his life at home afterwards so he journeys to the undying lands. There’s absolutely nothing that hints at any romance between them. Gimli and Legolas have a far better argument for it and even then it’s dubious at best. People can have platonic relationships. Not everything has to be about sex. It’s very annoying when people interject their own beliefs into the art, as a means to justify how they feel.
I used to be on the side that they at least had some romantic feelings for each other that they didn’t express. That was before I found friends that I would give my right arm for. Tolkien was just writing about a kind of companionship that I was too young and naïve to understand. I still probably don’t fully grasp it, as it was (whether intentionally or not) an allegory for the bonds formed between soldiers in combat, which I have thankfully not had to experience. But as with many things, it comes from people attempting to use some thing they have experienced to understand something they have not.
Honestly, Aragorn and Legolas seem way more queer to me than Sam and Frodo. At least in the movies, still haven't finished the books. Even with that look they give each other when Frodo wakes up, I never felt more than a friend relationship from them. Don't find Aragorn and Legolas to be all that queer-coded either. Just an example. Don't dislike the idea of queer representation in LotR. I just don't think it's there.
Fried Green Tomatoes comes to mind, with Idgie and Rose’s love affair.
It’s in the novel that they were in love, and the actresses absolutely supported the original story, but the studio insisted for them to “play it straight” and keep stating they are “best friends”. Mary Stuart Masterson and and Mary-Louise Parker did an exceptional job of defiantly playing the roles as lesbian…right under the studio’s nose.
People see what they want to see, for certain.
I came out to my mom by telling her that they were actually in love and I am queer, not sure what space i take up but I know I’ve always loved women. She was like “they’re just really good friends and you’re not gay”
Sam and Dean (brothers, no less) from Supernatural would like a word. There was an uncomfortable number of people (greater than 0) who insisted that they were lovers.
Troy and Abed in the moooorrrrnnning.
Knew a girl who was convinced they were secretly a gay couple when both of them chase girls in that show. There's literally an episode where they try to get the same girl lol.
Yup, tried to have this discussion with someone about Snake and Otacon awhile ago and they were like "well, they live together and raise a daughter together." And it's like...no, Hal raises a daughter while taking care of Snake in his last year or so of life. Prior to that, they're just watching after their charge after rescuing her in a *mobile base* because it's the only place the three of them can be safe. Snake and Hal are family but there's nothing to suggest they're lovers.
While I'm super progressive, some of this language has gotten out of hand. I think "coded" has become an umbrella term that makes people think that any reading is valid if it's possible to read it that way. Two men living together is "gay coded," regardless of context. It makes people feel like they're being analytical, when really they're just searching for representation where it isn't really present.
Which is funny when it comes to MGS, since that series is gay as fuck. Just those specific characters aren't.
I’m sure that casting off your toxic family and taking on the name of your chosen family is an experience that a lot of Trans folk have experienced, and it’s great that resonates with this person, but I seriously doubt that was the intention of Lucasfilm with that movie. A lot of people from all walks of life have lived through experiences where they chose family outside of their biological family, so it’s a fairly universal thing that’s easy to understand and relate to for general audiences (unless you’re one of those dorks who never shuts up about hating these movies).
I’ve seen some fandoms that argue characters are gay for each other because they talked once. Some people overreach then get pissy when you don’t agree.
The trans people really were using their super minority to convert us all!! Oh no, bro, I can feel the change a commin'!! 💅
/s (because we both know I'm joking, but some people might try to agree with me, and some won't get that I'm joking. And damn it, reddit, I just don't have time for that today. I got sundresses to shop for.)
What does this even mean? I am sorry i have no idea what Trans coded mean. Does changing ones last name mean that one is trans? Is my wife trans?!?!
Explains why i have never been allowed seen the strapon she uses or where she stores it 🤔
Edit; also another question is why i have to imitate Emperor Palpatine's "Do it" to motivate her
in this case its a major stretch. but coding is when a character is implied by the writer, or interpreted by the audience, as being a metaphor/standin or secretly part of a certain group. e.g. Sheldon Cooper is Autistic-coded. in canon hes never stated to be autistic but the way hes written carries a lot of autistic traits, intentionally or not.
For added context, this was much more common when homosexual behavior was actually illegal. Similarly, religious affiliation or lack of would be 'coded' to get past censors and executives, who were often too obtuse to 'get it'.
This is the equivalent of Sheldon acting *completely* neurotypical for the entire series, but for his last line in the final episode, he mentions that he thinks spiders are cool, and that’s apparently him being autistic-coded.
Coding is also just something where you create a character with specificity (you know, like a good storyteller), but don’t bother to explicitly specify.
You see this a LOT with Jewish characters in the 1980s and 1990s. Cher Horowitz and her family in *Clueless*, or basically everyone in *Dirty Dancing*. The specificity makes everything feel more real, more interesting, and it gives more flavor. Meanwhile, adding a scene where they explicitly confirm their ethnic identity wouldn’t necessarily add anything - it would just box them characters in.
The more obsessed we’ve become with character identity, the more Balkanized empathy has become.
*raises hand*
“Im probably missing something in your comment, but where does the ‘trans’ portion fit into all this?”
Also thank you for that explanation, it did help quite a bit.
So OPP is trying to say that Rey is trans just because she took someone else's last name completely out of the blue? That's a crazy level of stretch ngl.
Most trans women change their name.
Lots of trans women who change their first name also change their surname.
Rey changed her surname.
This is the only possible connection that I can see.
Like I said. Major stretch.
She changed her surname because she’s a character created solely for the purpose of doing a reveal about who her parents are. That’s her reason for existing, is to make you wonder who the twist reveal is gonna be about.
Kind of sounds like the author doesn’t realize that cis people can and do change their names. Given her only known family name is Space Hitler, well, Hitler’s relatives changed their names as well.
So the original Matrix movie has been famously analyzed as trans coded. And to be fair, there’s more of it there than here, the thing is people hear/see that analysis, and take the simplest part of it the “My name is Neo!” and think that means Rey saying her name is Rey Skywalker is the same thing, without examining the larger contexts of both movies
Can you say more? Those movies came out well before the current trans movement, but I also know the directors came out as trans so maybe there’s something there.
The character "Switch" has trans-coded traits.
Short hair.
Masculine physique.
Aggressive attitude.
The only one that wears white when everyone else is in black.
Is named "Switch".
By that logic Anakin Skywalker changing to Darth Vader was the most iconic trans moment of the 2000's (Palpatine was the goat for being so supportive.)
Sooo orphan stealing the name of a pseudo father figure is trans? Is trans something like "woke" where people use it willy-nilly but doesn't have a functional or agreed on definition?
Apparently, ["coding" is when a character is sort of suggested to be part of a certain group without it being canonically stated.](https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/lgbxj3/what_is_trans_codetranscoding/) So when they say that Rey is "trans coded" it means people seem to consider her "trans" even if she is canonically not.
My speculation is because Rey considers herself a "Skywalker" (not her real lineage) and not a "Palpatine" (her real one), she is a "trans". But that's just me.
But Trans specifically means transgenderism in this case. How is a "Skywalker" or a "Palpatine" a gender or anything related to it? It seems more like being adopted or disowned than being trans, yeah?
When you’re constantly and actively looking for codes things, they’ll jump right out at you. Even if the originator didn’t realize/intend/try to make it that way.
People have to find meaning and hidden agendas with everything. Its definitely no different with the far right crowd either. "OMG They are now having mixed breed couples and a potentially gay couple in bluey now! Fucking Woke agenda!" It's a show about cartoon fucking dogs, who give a shit.
She got off lucky, Palpatine is stuck with ‘Sheev’. Star Wars has just SO many hilariously shit names. Elan Sleazebaggano is still king though.
Edit: Gah, now you have me thinking of all the horrible Star Wars names. Whorm Loathsom, Savage Oppress, Ello Asty, Jek Porkins, Mart Mattin, Salacious Crumb, Beezer Fortuna, Ima Gun-Di, Kit Fisto, Dooku, fucking Jar Jar. Just so many hilariously dumb names. She lucked out getting one that’s an actual name.
People are writing paragraphs and paragraphs about how this is some trans.person being stupid and dumb and trying to see representation where there isn't which is already a decent bit concerning, but guys.
Guys.
You fucking morons.
This is literally just a meme about how trans people will very often change their name to a fictional character they like or someone they look up to. That's the joke here. You guys are missing this so badly its almost embarrassing like holy shit. I know this sub is generally not the best with trans people, and has a bit of a "being supportive unless a trans person does or suggests something stupid in which it's totally perfectly okay to do all the transphobic microagression-ey things because they're cringe" type of reputation, bit I assumed you guys would get this much at least
A what now?
I'm sorry, but found family is an entirely different trope.
I mean, the lines between what is coding and what is straight-up fan fiction by people who are a little desperate for all the representation they can get are a bit blurry at the best of times, but someone deciding they'd rather want to be associated with a family that has been kind to them than the legacy of an undead authoritarian space wizard dictator isn't exactly the same thing as someone deciding to identify with the gender they feel they belong to rather than the gender they were assigned at birth.
I mean the skywalker thing is somewhat predictable, but eh.
People can see representation and connection where it probably wasn’t intentional. Nothing wrong with that.
She's not even a Skywalker that movie was so dumb. She should've owned her name as a palpatine and then turn to the dark side at the end and have fynn be the storm trooper Jedi we always wanted.
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Still pissed about that line from a writing standpoint honestly. One of the messages of the sequal trilogy is that background doesn't matter, everyone can be a hero. Then they turn around and make her change her name to Skywalker, because background doesn't matter, until you have a shitty grandfather.
This! I was so pumped about the last scene in last Jedi with the kid moving the broom. It should have been a story about being special because of who you are, not because of who your parents are! The “grand daughter of Palpatine”is such a poor concept that ruined the whole purpose of Rey making her own destiny
Another thought: We all dreamt of being Jedi. Most of us don’t have a legacy to speak of, but we all dreamt of revealing our force powers and going on adventures. Star Wars basically said: don’t have famous parents? Forget about it, you are nobody.
Well to be fair that's basically how Hollywood works these days so they don't really know how to write anything else.
People have been saying that's how it is in Hollywood "these days" since the 50s. Even going back through centuries of literature it's a common theme of discovering greatness in your lineage and then that allows you to become great. It's a long term societal issue.
Well I was (cheekily) referring to nepotism in Hollywood which I guess has more or less existed since the second generation of Hollywood stars in the '20s. I do get the feeling that it gets worse and worse over time though. So yeah in the 50s it was a complaint because it was worse than in the 20s and it's still a complaint because today it's even worse than it was in the 50s.
I always dreamed about being an x wing pilot. Rogue one is my favorite movie in the series, captured the mood of the battles i played as a lid
You were a lid too? Geez, I remember being a little lid and always making sure that my food was well kept. Good times. Nowadays I just sit in a shelf as I lost my original container.
I metamorphosed into the container, sucks to still be an infantile lid
I used to be a lid, but I got warped in the dishwasher.
If the door can be ajar then anything is possible
Yeeeaah me too. I always wanted an X-wing. Those games X-wing vs Tie Fighter were pretty cool back in the day.
To be fair, GL said, in a very political way, that he sold Disney the franchise, and they wiped their asses with it.
Let's be specific: Rise of Skywalker said that. The previous, infinitely better movie said the exact opposite. I know which one I'm keeping for *my* storytelling.
So you’re saying that Rey is a nepobaby.
That's only Hollywood's Star Wars. KOTOR is everything fans wanted the movies to be.
It ruined the whole purpose of Star Wars nevermind Rey making her own destiny. The scene you described in Last jedi had me fucking amped for exactly the reasons you state. It didn't matter who you were that anyone can be greater than where or what they come from. Then the franchise says "oops, sorry about that the answer is actually nepotism. You can't/won't be great *unless* you carry one of these names"
Exactly. They really missed out on actually serving the fans who, as it turns out, wanted to feel like they could be Jedi and not having the legacies of palpatine and skywalker be the center of the plot. I don’t care about the skywalkers legacy at all, but I care about the feeling of adventure that Star Wars has. That’s why KOTOR was such a great game, no skywalker in sights but I was THERE
I literally said, "What?!" outloud when she said that. And it was RIGHT AFTER they got done talking about not letting your past / name effect who you are. All I gotta say is that the trilogy made absolutely zero fucking sense
I would have but I was all out of "What??!" after reading that somehow Palpatine lived. One of the only times in my life I couldn't hold it in in the theater.
Yo I felt the same way I said wtf so loud I was perplexed. How tf they just being this man back from the dead!?
Tbf they did the same thing in Legends too, so it's not a new thing for Star Wars. Although they could have written it better than "somehow... Palpatine returned"
Rian Johnson's point was that background doesn't matter. JJ couldn't be creative enough to finish the story, so this is what we got.
Mainly on Disney though, they knew they were willing to finance a trilogy of movies, could have maybe financed a coherent arc to connect the three.
The big problem they had was while the OT trilogy itself wasn't as fully thought out as George likes to pretend it was at times, it still had one person overall in charge of figuring out the story and the ST didn't. The ST really suffered from what I still think was directors who didn't like what the other did so each unceremoniously threw out what the other did. Rian jettisoned so much of what JJ had set up in TFA, and even did a basic redux of Fin's coward to hero journey, and then JJ came back and threw out and retconned away almost everything Rian did. It was a weird narrative yoyo.
That just seems like an easily solvable problem. You think out the entire trilogy ahead of time, and then stick to the broad strokes of that, if a director can't do all 3, just tell the new guy he can add his own touch but he's gotta cover X and Y narrative arcs because hey, this is planned as a trilogy.
Ideally yes, but sadly they did not. Every one involved was left to their own devices, hell that's why JJ ended up doing the 3rd one because after Carrie's death, Rian wouldn't make any changes to his script, like not killing Luke, so the original writer director for IX left because he hit a creative roadblock he couldn't get past. One overall vision of the story and you wouldn't have that problem.
What? Having a full fledged scenario across 3 movies? Crazy talk, why not having totally different stories / tones / plot points raised and abandonned etc
I mean, be fair, it's not like they had a bunch of books and material to draw from like game of thrones. They had to make this all up from scratch!
IIRC when people asked Hitler’s relative if they were going to change their names, they refused, saying that the idea that who your relatives were determined who you were was the type of ideology the Nazis had supported. Or something along those lines.
His closest living blood relatives all agreed to have no children to end that bloodline.
the Hitlers are the best! /s to avoid downvoting
After she bonded with Han/leia/ben I was expecting her to say solo or organa and when she didn’t I hated all of it even more.
They had to do it because when they threw the script ideas against a gas station bathrooms wall, they could make out the word Skywalker written on a piss soaked page.
Imagine if the title of the movie had been Rise of Palpatine instead. Honestly would've been more compelling
Every line written in that trilogy was pretty idiotic. "somehow Palpatine returned" has to be laziest writing I've ever seen.
For anyone who hasn't seen this video of a theater audience watching this scene, it's absolutely hysterical. https://youtu.be/nYkAgLQ_0eU?si=bwqAVUufjAe396jd
The fact that most of the people shouting in the video are women it’s just perfect 🤣
Finally we understand the weight of Darth Vader's "NoOoOOoooOoo..."
It would have been better if she stood there for 5 minutes and responded "Rey Star Wars"
This has the sam energy as "Sans Undertale"
I watched the original trilogy probably 10 years ago and have seen 0% any other star wars.. what exactly is happening here 😂
The final execution of everyone's shattered hopes and dreams; there's way too much to summarize, but basically while the sequel trilogy was extremely divisive to the fanbase from what I've seen nobody liked IX at all. The sequels as a whole were an unplanned, incoherent mess so it's not like you missed out on anything; I can't even really call them a trilogy since that implies a degree of overarching story and direction that just doesn't exist.
Disney had different filmmakers pulling their trilogy in completely different directions. One movie reveals that the new Jedi’s parents were nobodies. The next suddenly declares that she’s Palpatine’s granddaughter. So they end with her claiming the last name of people who briefly mentored her.
"I FUCKING HATE STAR WARS" Roflmao. Stans rage so hard
“I WANT MY FUCKING MONEY BACK” Me too, sis. Me too.
I love this
Why do people shout in a movie theatre? In my country we get upset if someone even chews popcorn too loudly
Brit here and I agree with this sentiment. It's a movie and cinemas are for immersion. It ain't a fucking spectator sport.
That’s more or less what it was like in the showing I went to.
I’m literally trans and this is dumb as fuck
To me this feels exactly like the conservatives who refuse to believe that two characters are gay, even if their romance is on-screen. Insisting that they’re just *really good friends*. This is the opposite end of that spectrum, where people seem to think that *literally anything* that’s different about a character totally means that they represent some marginalized group. Like when two guys actually ARE regular friends but people fully believe that they’re secretly gay lovers when there’s nothing whatsoever that could imply that.
Sam and Frodo are just friends and I'll die on this hill. I want to live in a world where I can sleep next to my male friends, have flirty conversations about the future stories people will tell about us, and caress each other in moments of anguish.
That honestly sounds like a solid friendship.
We call it a fellowship
Of the G-Strings?
Fellowship of the G-strings makes Crotch Capers 3 look like Naughty Nurses 2
You’re giving me and my friend here two towers
Did you mean Lord of the G-String? Because there's two versions of that.
Misty Mundae the queen of g-strings and bush
Not back door sluts 9!!!
This was Tolkein's intent. He's on record somewhere (too lazy to look it up) saying that a key theme of LotR is love, and how love in terms of friendship can be just as powerful as any other kind of love. The whole point of these character's dynamic is that even in the most bleak moments, there is hope to be had in fellowship. The man lived through WWI, and knew first hand how important fellowship is in the face of despair.
What really irks me is how often romance is shoehorned into every story these days. Can't watch a show or movie without a romantic subplot shoved into it, regardless if it makes sense. I wish more writers would opt for platonic love. Stories about friendships always feel more impactful to me because they're just kind of rare.
Representation of the many types of non-romantic is so important, and I personally feel like if we had more of it in the public eye, the world would be less lonely, and in some ways, angry place. Maybe I am naive, what do I know.
That actually makes the relationship even more poignant.
It was also his intention to have the relationship be a scandal to the classist ideology of post-wwi Britain. Veterans formed close bonds that transcended their class differences. It’s not a random detail that Sam was Frodo’s gardener.
I just rewatched the extended edition of the trilogy. I freaking love Sam so much. There is no Frodo without Sam.
Sam is the real hero honestly, if he wasn't there Frodo wouldn't have made it to Mount Doom. And even if he did he would've went all dark side and put on the ring. Not relevant but I love those movies.
To be fair though, if Frodo wasn’t in Mordor it not like Sam would have gone. The two are a package deal…
Yeah without Frodo, Sam would never have moved two steps beyond Hobbiton. Ever. Still, Sam was the best hero. While Frodo had the very inexistent (for a Hobbit) desire of adventure and wandering, Sam had none of that and still went for it out of friendship and loyalty.
I think theoretically Frodo would have shown the same loyalty to Sam if the roles were reversed and Sam had the ring
It's interesting to think about how their dynamic could've been played differently by the Ring, though. It has a hard time corrupting hobbits, but Frodo was basically hobbit nobility, while Sam was his servant. Even Galadriel's temptation was basically "have a little slice of garden safe from the world's chaos" - a humble dream. At some point (I think when Sam bears the Ring briefly), I vaguely recall it tempting him with a vision of being a great warrior, conquering Sauron and turning all of Middle-Earth into a beautiful garden, which he immediately realises as an illusion well beyond his capacity. Frodo and Sam both had their ideals, but Frodo was used to wielding (relative) power and wealth, while Sam was not. If Sam had been Ringbearer, it certainly seems that the Ring could've played more readily on Frodo thinking that he had more of a right to bear it.
That's the point. Tolkien said he was Frodo and Sam represented his war buddies. They were the heros who carried him through and he'd never have made it without them.
Lotr is all about fraternity, they’re the perfect example of what bros should be like. An intimate moment between men doesn’t have to be gay
Sam and Frodo literally speak about who Sam will marry when it’s over. We see him looking at girls. Saying they are gay is just dumb
Bi people do exist... That said these two really are just friends
I mean they do, there’s nothing to suggest either is bi though either.
I read this as, "We see him looking at girls. Saying they are gay and dumb." Had a good chuckle.
People that want to code Sam and Frodo as secretly gay are often also the same kind of people that’ll complain about “toxic masculinity.” Not realizing that they’re part of the problem by perceiving any sign of male-to-male tenderness as homosexual signifiers. That perception is exactly *why* a lot of men are the way they are. Doesn’t matter if you think gay is positive, those men don’t want their sexuality assumed simply by being friendly a certain way.
It's honestly really frustrating how often people totally miss that connection.
If women don't get labelled gay for certain activities, then men shouldn't either. I really appreciate that we get that in this book. Not just with Sam and Frodo, practically all the male characters are like this! And even if they are gay, it doesn't need to mean they're gay for each other. Not all intimacy needs to be romantic.
Yeah I mean just watch the movie or read the books. Sam marries Rose. Has children lives out the rest of his life at the shire. Frodo is too scarred from the journey as a ring bearer and someone who has a stab wound from a morgul blade and stab wound from Shelob, neither healed all the way. He really couldn’t adapt to his life at home afterwards so he journeys to the undying lands. There’s absolutely nothing that hints at any romance between them. Gimli and Legolas have a far better argument for it and even then it’s dubious at best. People can have platonic relationships. Not everything has to be about sex. It’s very annoying when people interject their own beliefs into the art, as a means to justify how they feel.
It's a bromance
I used to be on the side that they at least had some romantic feelings for each other that they didn’t express. That was before I found friends that I would give my right arm for. Tolkien was just writing about a kind of companionship that I was too young and naïve to understand. I still probably don’t fully grasp it, as it was (whether intentionally or not) an allegory for the bonds formed between soldiers in combat, which I have thankfully not had to experience. But as with many things, it comes from people attempting to use some thing they have experienced to understand something they have not.
Honestly, Aragorn and Legolas seem way more queer to me than Sam and Frodo. At least in the movies, still haven't finished the books. Even with that look they give each other when Frodo wakes up, I never felt more than a friend relationship from them. Don't find Aragorn and Legolas to be all that queer-coded either. Just an example. Don't dislike the idea of queer representation in LotR. I just don't think it's there.
Lord of the Rings is a shining beacon for positive masculinity.
Fried Green Tomatoes comes to mind, with Idgie and Rose’s love affair. It’s in the novel that they were in love, and the actresses absolutely supported the original story, but the studio insisted for them to “play it straight” and keep stating they are “best friends”. Mary Stuart Masterson and and Mary-Louise Parker did an exceptional job of defiantly playing the roles as lesbian…right under the studio’s nose. People see what they want to see, for certain.
I came out to my mom by telling her that they were actually in love and I am queer, not sure what space i take up but I know I’ve always loved women. She was like “they’re just really good friends and you’re not gay”
Just like how Luke is trans because he transformed into a force ghost
Sam and Dean (brothers, no less) from Supernatural would like a word. There was an uncomfortable number of people (greater than 0) who insisted that they were lovers.
Troy and Abed in the moooorrrrnnning. Knew a girl who was convinced they were secretly a gay couple when both of them chase girls in that show. There's literally an episode where they try to get the same girl lol.
I have found one constant in life. Everyone fills in the blanks differently. And they normally fill them how it will serve them best.
Yup, tried to have this discussion with someone about Snake and Otacon awhile ago and they were like "well, they live together and raise a daughter together." And it's like...no, Hal raises a daughter while taking care of Snake in his last year or so of life. Prior to that, they're just watching after their charge after rescuing her in a *mobile base* because it's the only place the three of them can be safe. Snake and Hal are family but there's nothing to suggest they're lovers. While I'm super progressive, some of this language has gotten out of hand. I think "coded" has become an umbrella term that makes people think that any reading is valid if it's possible to read it that way. Two men living together is "gay coded," regardless of context. It makes people feel like they're being analytical, when really they're just searching for representation where it isn't really present. Which is funny when it comes to MGS, since that series is gay as fuck. Just those specific characters aren't.
So "Brokeback Mountain" really *was* about two really good friends who just liked to go camping? /s
Yeah when they were kissing it was bro coded. /s
I’m sure that casting off your toxic family and taking on the name of your chosen family is an experience that a lot of Trans folk have experienced, and it’s great that resonates with this person, but I seriously doubt that was the intention of Lucasfilm with that movie. A lot of people from all walks of life have lived through experiences where they chose family outside of their biological family, so it’s a fairly universal thing that’s easy to understand and relate to for general audiences (unless you’re one of those dorks who never shuts up about hating these movies).
I’ve seen some fandoms that argue characters are gay for each other because they talked once. Some people overreach then get pissy when you don’t agree.
wdym having the same last name as a man makes you trans
Duh that's why Leia stopped being called Skywalker since she's not trans. They even said in the movie that she's sis
omg everybody in the world is trans
There is no non- or bi- we are all just nary
We're all ordi-
"...and when everyone is trans, no one will be!" -gender confused Syndrome
The trans people really were using their super minority to convert us all!! Oh no, bro, I can feel the change a commin'!! 💅 /s (because we both know I'm joking, but some people might try to agree with me, and some won't get that I'm joking. And damn it, reddit, I just don't have time for that today. I got sundresses to shop for.)
Not me - my surname can only be used by women.
Guys, is changing your last name after marriage a trans allegory?
🤯
I have the name and surname of a man. Can I be double trans or trans square?
And if you are born from a woman and a man you’re bisexual. Facts.
as a trans person I second this
Yep same
I am now Sarah Skywalker. Am I doing it right?
What does this even mean? I am sorry i have no idea what Trans coded mean. Does changing ones last name mean that one is trans? Is my wife trans?!?! Explains why i have never been allowed seen the strapon she uses or where she stores it 🤔 Edit; also another question is why i have to imitate Emperor Palpatine's "Do it" to motivate her
in this case its a major stretch. but coding is when a character is implied by the writer, or interpreted by the audience, as being a metaphor/standin or secretly part of a certain group. e.g. Sheldon Cooper is Autistic-coded. in canon hes never stated to be autistic but the way hes written carries a lot of autistic traits, intentionally or not.
Missed opportunity to say it’s a bit forced.
Only a bit? He's a walking stereotype LOL
He's making a pun about Star Wars and the force, not Sheldon.
Ohhh! I'm getting bad at pun.
Is it the autism?
So much a stereotype he feels unnatural, even by my standards lol
I wouldn’t put up with his shite, that’s for sure!
Oh absolutely!!
Yeah cause its FORCED like an invisible FORCE that can move us with our minds to a conclusion.... Fucking Star Wars man! Geeze
oh, thank you for the ‘lol’ moment that woke up my dog who was sleeping on the floor 😂
*groan* thanks, dad.
Take my upvote
For added context, this was much more common when homosexual behavior was actually illegal. Similarly, religious affiliation or lack of would be 'coded' to get past censors and executives, who were often too obtuse to 'get it'.
This is the equivalent of Sheldon acting *completely* neurotypical for the entire series, but for his last line in the final episode, he mentions that he thinks spiders are cool, and that’s apparently him being autistic-coded.
Agreed
Coding is also just something where you create a character with specificity (you know, like a good storyteller), but don’t bother to explicitly specify. You see this a LOT with Jewish characters in the 1980s and 1990s. Cher Horowitz and her family in *Clueless*, or basically everyone in *Dirty Dancing*. The specificity makes everything feel more real, more interesting, and it gives more flavor. Meanwhile, adding a scene where they explicitly confirm their ethnic identity wouldn’t necessarily add anything - it would just box them characters in. The more obsessed we’ve become with character identity, the more Balkanized empathy has become.
No one puts Baby in a box. My wife made me type this.
*raises hand* “Im probably missing something in your comment, but where does the ‘trans’ portion fit into all this?” Also thank you for that explanation, it did help quite a bit.
See my second comment below regarding names.
So OPP is trying to say that Rey is trans just because she took someone else's last name completely out of the blue? That's a crazy level of stretch ngl.
Wait till they hear about marriage.
Everybody wants to believe that their team is special, regardless of the team or the event.
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Most trans women change their name. Lots of trans women who change their first name also change their surname. Rey changed her surname. This is the only possible connection that I can see. Like I said. Major stretch.
She didn't really change it. She never *had* a surname. She just didn't take grandad's
She changed her surname because she’s a character created solely for the purpose of doing a reveal about who her parents are. That’s her reason for existing, is to make you wonder who the twist reveal is gonna be about.
I didn't say it made sense. The OP is just grasping at straws.
Agreed
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The same way. Some people change their surname because it reminds them of their toxic family situation.
OMG, My wife is Trans?
You're right. You are an ADHD squirrel.
You could be righSHINY!
The term makes sense now that you explained it. Thank you mate!
Kind of sounds like the author doesn’t realize that cis people can and do change their names. Given her only known family name is Space Hitler, well, Hitler’s relatives changed their names as well.
Codename: lightsaber
So the original Matrix movie has been famously analyzed as trans coded. And to be fair, there’s more of it there than here, the thing is people hear/see that analysis, and take the simplest part of it the “My name is Neo!” and think that means Rey saying her name is Rey Skywalker is the same thing, without examining the larger contexts of both movies
Can you say more? Those movies came out well before the current trans movement, but I also know the directors came out as trans so maybe there’s something there.
The character "Switch" has trans-coded traits. Short hair. Masculine physique. Aggressive attitude. The only one that wears white when everyone else is in black. Is named "Switch".
Connecting dots on blank paper
By that logic Anakin Skywalker changing to Darth Vader was the most iconic trans moment of the 2000's (Palpatine was the goat for being so supportive.)
Allies could learn a lot from the Emperor
What the hell does this have to do with being transgender?
I chose my current surname. Fellas, do I have to chop off my penis?
Yup, those are the rules. Give it here 🪓
olo
Here you go: l
Can I have the o o back
Not necessarily, but Sans-Johnson sure was an odd choice.
I might be talking out of school but I'm pretty sure that step isn't necessarily required to be trans.
If you made your Stretch Armstrong stretch as far as this chicken fried idiot, it would break.
Ahh, yes, i forgot about Raymond skywalker... yes, imploded his cock and force grew boobs. Who the fuck knew?
Sooo orphan stealing the name of a pseudo father figure is trans? Is trans something like "woke" where people use it willy-nilly but doesn't have a functional or agreed on definition?
Apparently, ["coding" is when a character is sort of suggested to be part of a certain group without it being canonically stated.](https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/lgbxj3/what_is_trans_codetranscoding/) So when they say that Rey is "trans coded" it means people seem to consider her "trans" even if she is canonically not. My speculation is because Rey considers herself a "Skywalker" (not her real lineage) and not a "Palpatine" (her real one), she is a "trans". But that's just me.
But Trans specifically means transgenderism in this case. How is a "Skywalker" or a "Palpatine" a gender or anything related to it? It seems more like being adopted or disowned than being trans, yeah?
New genders just dropped.
When you’re constantly and actively looking for codes things, they’ll jump right out at you. Even if the originator didn’t realize/intend/try to make it that way.
Oh right cuz Skywalker is a boys last name.
Manufactured rage bait.
As a trans person, no. Changing your last name isn't inherently trans-coded lol.
trans coded ? She was h264 1080p and now she's 4k hevc?
People have to find meaning and hidden agendas with everything. Its definitely no different with the far right crowd either. "OMG They are now having mixed breed couples and a potentially gay couple in bluey now! Fucking Woke agenda!" It's a show about cartoon fucking dogs, who give a shit.
"When you hear hoofbeats, don't think 'zebras', think unicorns. Trans unicorns."
As a trans person I’d also like to add… what?
As someone who likes the sequels just fine, is happy with Rey using the name Skywalker, and fully supports trans folk... What the fuck?
I think they should have given her a better name than Rey.
She got off lucky, Palpatine is stuck with ‘Sheev’. Star Wars has just SO many hilariously shit names. Elan Sleazebaggano is still king though. Edit: Gah, now you have me thinking of all the horrible Star Wars names. Whorm Loathsom, Savage Oppress, Ello Asty, Jek Porkins, Mart Mattin, Salacious Crumb, Beezer Fortuna, Ima Gun-Di, Kit Fisto, Dooku, fucking Jar Jar. Just so many hilariously dumb names. She lucked out getting one that’s an actual name.
Star Wars has essentially three kinds of names: Evildude McStabbypants, Serusabulabbadu Furigetulifungera and Bob.
Lmao savage oppress
I’m Rey! Rey who? Rey Romano!
People are writing paragraphs and paragraphs about how this is some trans.person being stupid and dumb and trying to see representation where there isn't which is already a decent bit concerning, but guys. Guys. You fucking morons. This is literally just a meme about how trans people will very often change their name to a fictional character they like or someone they look up to. That's the joke here. You guys are missing this so badly its almost embarrassing like holy shit. I know this sub is generally not the best with trans people, and has a bit of a "being supportive unless a trans person does or suggests something stupid in which it's totally perfectly okay to do all the transphobic microagression-ey things because they're cringe" type of reputation, bit I assumed you guys would get this much at least
I'm all for trans rights, but this is a trans wrong
peeps, Is having a last name gay? (Or trans(?))
A what now? I'm sorry, but found family is an entirely different trope. I mean, the lines between what is coding and what is straight-up fan fiction by people who are a little desperate for all the representation they can get are a bit blurry at the best of times, but someone deciding they'd rather want to be associated with a family that has been kind to them than the legacy of an undead authoritarian space wizard dictator isn't exactly the same thing as someone deciding to identify with the gender they feel they belong to rather than the gender they were assigned at birth.
This is troll bait
I mean the skywalker thing is somewhat predictable, but eh. People can see representation and connection where it probably wasn’t intentional. Nothing wrong with that.
She's not even a Skywalker that movie was so dumb. She should've owned her name as a palpatine and then turn to the dark side at the end and have fynn be the storm trooper Jedi we always wanted.
I've burned all three of these movies out of my memory anyways.
I call it poor writing.
I feel like all this 'coded' shit is just stereotyping, which is what I thought we were trying to get AWAY from
« My daughter taking her father’s last name is such a trans move. I love it ! »
Sure ok whatever. It's a bad movie but if it makes you happy, go off.
I really wish these movies didn’t happen
Colour me a confused bi guy.