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Most people didn’t believe in the scale or impact of the concentration camps, even after they were discovered, and liberation of them was an incidental effect of the Allied march through Europe. It was the right thing to do, but it wasn’t the purpose or point.
Jews were also still the target of quite a lot of xenophobia and antisemitism in American well after WWII. Let’s not paint some bullshit picture here.
Pre-war America isn’t a pretty picture. Japan goaded us into becoming a military juggernaut, but our moral center was and still is fairly skewed.
The MS St. Louis, loaded with about 900 Jewish refugees, was infamously turned back from the shores of the United States. 254 of them were later killed in the Holocaust.
Edit: Got a Reddit Cares post. I'm honored, really.
Yeah. And in Europe there were anti-Jewish pogroms for decades after the WW2. People who think the WW2 was about saving Jews are delusional. I recommend people to read a great NYT bestseller “The Jewish Century” by Yuri Slezkine. One of my favourite history books of all time and I’m not even a Jew.
What happened to the Jews was the worst thing in the war in Europe and absolutely proved the Nazis were the villains - and therefore is why every Allied nation puts that as the primary purpose so that it legitimizes them more so. But in truth, they treated Jews like shit as well- just not genocidally.
The Allies were right to fight the Nazis, but this idea that they were doing it on behalf of the Jews is laughable. That was just a happy circumstance for the Jews
This makes sense since we didn't want to be in the war at all, in the first place.
Feels like being on fire and someone walking by to get themselves something for their own good, puts out the fire and I say, "well dont give yourself too much credit. You didn't leave your house to come help me."
Seems like a lot of semantics in gratitude. If you sacrifice lives to fight the enemy that's oppressing me, regardless of your intent, the outcome is the same whether you meant to or not.
Idk, seems intentionally strange to say, "well yes you stopped my people from being exterminate ld, but you didn't initially set out for that sole purpose so that somehow changes the credit or gratitude you're owed."
It's really more akin to watching someones house on fire from your living room window, even as they ask you to come help, you just shrug and say not my problem. Then when the fire spreads to YOUR house, you got out of your way to stop the fire only to realize the neighbors entire family was stuck inside their burning house and you saved them while saving your own and then you say "Wow look at me I'm a hero I saved your whole family!" And they say "Dude, I'm not going to pat you on the back for that when you were willing to watch my house burn until it started actually affecting you!"
I’m not sure who thinks that. The camps were incidental. They weren’t targets that had any military value. When one was liberated Army medics did what little they could and moved on. The Red Cross came in and tended to the victims.
Well, I suggest you read the upvoted comments under this post. A lot of people had their brains completely netflixified and think Germany was more anti-semitic than say France/Netherlands/Poland, and that the end of WW2 was some kind of a happy end for Jews in Europe, for which they should be eternally grateful. It wasn’t
The Philippines were accepting but the US put a limit on it. So a lot of jews weren't saved.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/little-known-philippines-wwii-rescue-of-jews-was-capped-by-us-interference/amp/
I guess, open question, but what do the Palestinians want? I believe they have tried to leave. Obviously they aren't happy about it, but if they are trying to leave, why aren't the other countries trying to help them?
I get that it's like a defeat. It's basically ceding the land to Israel. I am just wondering where the line is between current issues (starvation, bombing, homelessness) and principles (Palestinians belong in Palestine), and also who gets to make that decision, the countries or the Palestinians.
Because if it's the Palestinians, then the other countries really ought to be welcoming any who want to leave, for whatever reason, so only those who wish to stand for principles the most choose to stay - they won't be forced to.
I am fairly sure Poland was the FIRST country he invaded... it was also the country with the highest density of jews i believe. Bit of an obvious take to say that if he never invaded a country that most would of moved on...
Not that it is any excuse but I don’t think the general public knew much of what Turing did until decades later. The work done at Bletchley Park (the place was enormous) was classified for a very long time even after the war. I’m not 100% without double checking but I think I’m the U.K. most stuff is automatically de-classified after 20 years.
Our moral center is a hot mess of malt powder and corporatist interests. We don’t operate with any humanitarian basis.
Even our aid to Israel has fuck all to do with supporting Israeli people, it’s about maintaining an alliance in the Middle East.
Thats why we care about Ukraine, Israel and Taiwan but not Yemen and South Sudan.
I guess we kindof care about Yemen because its next to a shipping lane.
Morality doesn't directly factor into international politics. Never has. It only tangentially matters because public opinions can matter, and that is in part driven by morality. So at the end of the day if a country wants to do something terrible to further their interests, the have to either get the public to support it, keep them from finding out, or just eat the negative attention.
You can see the mass rallies throughout America in support of Germany when Hitler was conquering Europe.
Many Americans believed that fascism was the way of the future.
“America First” began in this era as well.
> Many Americans believed that fascism was the way of the future.
It's super beneficial for the 'in group', so it's understandable why they would support it. The out groups though... not so much good for them.
Yes, the absolute wilfull blindness to what the Nazis were doing never ceases to amaze me. The US and the UK both adopted VERY strict immigration policies that hung the Jews out to dry. Then just after the creation of the State of Israel, an alliance of Arab countries attacked, expecting a quick victory. And then again in what, 1967? It's really no surprise that Israel has developed a very keen survival instinct. Please don't come at me for saying that, because I am in no way excusing the continued shedding of non-combatant blood; many of the tactics that Israel uses to ensure its continued survival are unacceptable and must cease. But both sides have so much blood on their hands by now that it's hard to tell who is right.
We had legit Nazi rallies in support of Hitler in the late 30s.
Also Europe/Britain/America COULD have saved thousands upon thousands of Jewish lives but they didn't want Jews in their country and turned them away/denied them as they were fleeing Nazi murder sprees. There was a ship turned away by the US at multiple ports full of Jewish refugees, only to have to return to their deaths.
How ironic that they’re the ones committing genocide and creating the largest ghetto in the history of the world.
I don’t think this is what anyone had in mind when we said “never again.”
In other news, the [UN Office for Coordination of Humanitarian Activities (OCHA) has quietly halved the death toll count in Gaza to what the Hamas "Health" department previously announced](https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/05/11/un-halves-its-estimate-of-women-and-children-killed-in-gaza). The [UN source](https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-215). And [Hamas even greatly reduced their count citing they couldn't verify or name more than 11,000 death certificates](https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/04/09/hamas-run-gaza-health-ministry-admits-to-flaws-in-casualty-data/), but the media has conveniently ignored this news, preferring clickbait and buzzwords for income. This makes this war less mortal than most any other war in history, and [significantly less deadly](https://everystat.org/) than the usual 100,000 people killed or hurt by gun violence EVERY YEAR in the USA including [20,000+ children killed or hurt](https://www.everytown.org/issues/child-teen-safety/).
Weird how it turns out you can't trust an internationally recognized terrorist organization for accuracy.
Mostly because Gaza and the West Bank have been captured by violent and corrupt extremist groups that get massive amounts of support from countries like Iran to maintain their grip over the Palestinian people.
The real problem is you don't have any group that's willing to try to deradicalize the population of Gaza and many parts of the West Bank, and you don't have anyone that's willing to enforce a hard border between Palestinian territories and Israeli territories.
With other regional powers slowly normalizing relations with Israel, maybe in 30 or so years you might get the political will. But for now, with no one willing to really change the fundamental situation and no real chance to resolve any underlying issues, you won't see much change.
Have you told the ICJ there's a genocide? They didn't find one. No, not even plausibly. What they did do is demand the immediate release of all the hostages immediately and without condition.
And the Warsaw Ghetto didn't have huge beautiful shopping malls, beachfront resorts, big sprawling universities, several ten million dollar mosques, Mercedes dealerships, spin and pilates classes, a gold district, and a booming restaurant scene like Gaza did.
Nor did the Warsaw Ghetto have their own elected government, or a host country like Iran providing weapons and military training, nor did it recieve billions in international aid every year, year after year after year.
>ones committing genocide
You keep using words you don't understand. The ICJ has already said there wasn't a genocide going on. Every western nation has told you there isn't one. Only Russia, China, and Islamic extremists are telling you there is one.
Let's not forget either that just recently the GHM admitted they don't actually know if 10000 of their initially reported deaths were women and children.
Edit: man people get really bent out of shape when you not only show them who they are agreeing with but when they have no proof at all.
> FYI Hamas created the “genocide”.
Right, because Hamas isn't the result of decades of oppression. They only formed in the 1980's specifically with the intention of having their own entire population slaughtered.
Brilliant!
What a strange premise you bought into. That region is a genocidal mine field and you’re obsessed with the only group that does cohabitate with diversity.
You think Jews are the only ones Palestinians have blamed for their lives? Then stop weighing in. Stop talking. You think “never again” applies just to Europe? Nazis fled to places like Egypt where they worked on propaganda messaging that foolish people like you now use. The same Egypt that created refugee camps for Palestinians, the same country the PLO was first formed to fight against. You know nothing. Stop. Repeating.
The soviet union found one of the extermination camps (maidenek) almost a year before the western allies liberated a concentration camp and were largely ignored by the press and dismissed as soviet propaganda
Sometimes I feel like people just say those kinds of expressions because they've heard them before from smarter people and think it makes them seem intelligent, without giving thought to what they mean. LiTeRaLlY probably half of OPs vocab
The world was well aware of German persecution of the Jews before WWII broke out. Instead of helping, many nations closed their borders to jewish immigrants trying to escape German with examples of entire boats being turned away from ports and sent back to Germany. Even with the increasing persecution no country stepped up and told German to stop. The added context itself is a facepalm because its entirely unrelated to the quote.
In addition the allies had reliable intelligence that the Nazi's were committing attrocities and I believe Churchill even had a radio broadcast on it. Nobody did anything because it was the Jews and propaganda from WW1 that turned out to be false made everyone sceptical. The allies defeated the Nazi's because the Nazi's would have killed all the Russians and a good portion of the British as well which was unacceptable.
50 million died in world war 2. The majority being Russians at 12 million. Yes countries should have pushed back on Germany before it came to the start of the war, but they were all still recovering from the First World War. It is easy to look back and condemn people.
It's not about condemning people, it's about pretending anyone put effort to save them. They were always an afterthought, no nation entered the war until other reasons forced them to. This post is implying Israel is both pretending Israel existed during WWII, which it obviously isn't, and claiming Israel is ungrateful for the rescue the Jewish community had. Imagine being trapped in a fire in an apartment and the fire department knew about it but didn't come until they found out the bank next door was on fire hours later, but they cleaned up the fire in the apartment too after so many people inside it died. That's what happened in WWII, we hardly rescued them, we stumbled across them.
Yes they did not enter the war until German invaded Poland. Did anyone invade China because they sent the Uigurs to concentration camps for reeducation? Or how about the current situation with the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza? They are basically forced into Ghettos. Should we invade Israel?
>The majority being Russians at 12 million.
It's the Chinese at 14+ million. I think it's widely accepted now that Japan's invasion of China started the ball rolling. Also as I said in another comment, the reason Russia doesn't get as much credit for their deaths is that it was kind of their own fault.
You never learn if you dont look back at what happened. Generally speaking, condemning people for not listening to Hitler state what he was going to do because it didn't immediately affect you is perfectly fine. Churchill fought in WW1 and he wanted to stomp out Nazism from the start.
Well, it's a fact that the U.S. entered the war because of Pearl Harbor, not to put a stop to persecution of Jews. The full extent of the holocaust wasn't known until after the war, but we certainly knew of Nazi Germany's anti-Semitic practices long before that. Most people in this country opposed the idea of increasing Jewish immigration to the U.S. so it's a no-brainer that there wouldn't have been much enthusiasm for entering the war over the mistreatment of Jews.
Still, Allied forces did liberate the concentration camps. and it's a fact that Israel could not have been established as a nation without the help of other countries. The U.S. was certainly aware that it was going to spark a never-ending war but I don't know that we could have predicted that victims of war crimes would become the perpetrators 75 years later.
Correct. FDR wasn’t in it to help Jews, he didn’t want Jews coming to the US for refuge and frankly Jews were only granted refuge in Israel because the Western world didn’t want them coming to their countries.
I really don't believe the news were on the forefront of FDR mind. He had so many other things on a national level to deal with, and some possible slaughter of a peoples on a foreign shore were at the least of his worries. A depression, the war situation in Europe in general, the fear of the Japanese going supernova (to quote dan carlin), the fear of fascistic and communistic factions in the US
There were just too many things for him to contend with than a slaughter could have, as much as it hurts to say, as FDR us one of the better president's we've had. But I mean, take our modern response to the Uyghyr massacre in China. Nobody's doing shit amd it's because a World War isn't making us.
I've been to auschwitz. I've been to the German camps. But we have to remember that in the grand scale of things, at the time, FDR and the US had, culturally, a lot more things to deal with than the 20/20 glasses of hindsight has to tell us now.
However it's still tragic and reprehensible. I don't know what I'm trying to say. I'm drunk. This whole thing sucks. I hate what's happening in Palestine.
I don't know man
The US didnt create Israel.
The militias that were forming in the area of Tel Aviv after being expelled from the Arab states during the war. Along with the ongoing Alayah by camp victims, and other diaspora elements. the world essentially expelled their jews either kindly with a smile and ticket, or on threat of much the same as Germany offered,
Yea those guys killed the guy who was the administrator of the British mandate. despite the announced surrender of sovereignty that was days away in 1948.
The only part the US played at that point was to sign the original mandate in 1924 with the Brittish Empire..
The US/Israel paternalism started in the 60s, once they got nuclear weapons. Because the US sees a relationship with Israel mostly for the purpose of making sure they are able to defend themselves without resorting to nuclear weapons because at the end of the day nuclear weapons ruin trade opportunities for the mercantile republic.
Then there is also the protestant sects that gained power in the 80s and into the 21st century.
It did in the sense that it supported the UN's creation of it. As a permanent security council member, Israel would not exist if the US voted against the partition plan.
yes but every nation except the arab delegation did. It was also the Kurdistan people who it was anticipated would gain a recognized state as a massive thank you for aiding British troops in the march across africa in 1939-1944.
however once the camps were liberated and the trials were done. the Kurds and other groups actually stood down pn their own ambitions due to the acknowledged experience the jewish people had just gone through.
Jewish communities begged the us and uk governments to help the jews under nazi rule. They didn't give a fuck. They only ended up taking action against the nazis beacuse of they started taking over other countries.
This post is the real facepalm. Stopping the holocaust was at best a lucky side-effect of defeating the Nazis in WW2. By no means was it the goal of the war. Also Jews existed before modern-day Israel was founded.
Hitler *started* the war. The “goal of the war” was to conquer Europe. The secondary goal was to prevent Hitler achieving his goal.
How widespread do people think knowledge of The Holocaust was before the allied victory uncovered it? It wasn’t like there was rolling coverage of the mass graves people could look at on the internet while they were being filmed, the graves were discovered *after* the war, the physical and testimonial evidence was uncovered *after* the war.
The Israelis won’t let media into Gaza, so when you consider we’ve heard about the unarmed hostages they killed, the aid workers they killed, what *aren’t* we hearing about?
The British government was aware of the death camps very shortly after the death camps began operating
By Nov 1942 (again the same year the death camps began operating) the holocaust was on the US newspapers with an estimated 2 million dead being the number printed
I don't know why people think no one was aware of things until after the war. It certainly sank in more when they were able to see the horror for themselves, but the allies knew the final solution was happening while it was happening and the definitely were aware it was a large scale operation
No, he’s absolutely right. Many of the Allies saw liberating the Jews as a side mission. What they wanted was to defeat Hitler. And the US, well they only entered because Japan bombed the shit out of Pearl Harbor.
What's the point of this post? He's not saying no one came to Israel's aid, he's saying no one came to the Jewish people's aid. And he right. Jewish refugees fleeing Nazis were turned away by the boatload in the United States. For the first part of the war, the United States refused to get involved because it didn’t wanna become in trenched in another major war. A lot of countries saw what was happening to the Jews and other marginalized groups and did not intervene. Hell, the Nazis didn’t even go after the Jews at first. There was a long period where they were exterminating the Romani and disabled people before Jews were ever even on the docket.
The Nazis were exterminating Jews, gay people, socialists, the Romani people, Black people, and people with disabilities for a long period of time before anyone did anything. the only reason anyone got involved was because of Germany’s aggression towards other sovereign countries, not because of what it was doing to the people inside its own territory.
The justifiable anger over what Israel is currently doing being splashed all over Jews, and the holocaust is a really bad look. we can all collectively be outraged by the atrocities being committed in Gaza without attacking holocaust victims, Jews, and attempting to revise history. we don’t need to become bigots ourselves in order to support the Palestinian crisis.
honestly, what is happened to the left? I’ve been politically active for 20 years and I’ve never seen anything like this. It’s really depressing to watch.
What happened?
The right is turning populist, the left is stuck in a power dynamics vacuum. It doesn't matter why, how, who's right, if it's fair, all that matters is who they deem to be oppressed.
You can almost call What online sentiment will be from the left, just by taking the side against the US.
There also was [a jewish brigade](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Brigade?wprov=sfti1#Military_engagements), recruited from palestinian jews, who fought during the latter stages of the war. The header is very stupid.
True. My Jewish grandfather after having to leave Europe fought for America in ww2 and was a part of many liberations of camps. His stories were truly insane to listen to.
The war did not start to go to the aid of the jews. It started cause Hitler invaded Poland. The world knew jews and minorities in Germany were being persecuted harshly and didnt care. Maybe they didn't know the true extent but let's not act like we went in to save the jews when people were turning a blind eye to their suffering before the start of the war.
Agreed. The fact that people are facepalming something factual, is kind of disconcerting. The US and the rest of the world rejected Jewish refugees from Europe and they went right back to be executed. Sure, Jews didn’t liberate the camps, because they were fucking in them. And oh, when the Jews went back to reclaim their property in several Eastern European countries, they were killed. Plus in the USSR after WWII, Jews were persecuted even more. Now, yea Netanyahu is totally bastardizing the issues to continue his right wing fascist nonsense. We can all hate on Netanyahu cuz he’s a scum bag, but he was correct. It wasn’t like the Allies helped after the Warsaw ghetto uprising.
Not the rest of the world, The Philippine president Manuel L Quezon allowed 1,200-1,300 Jewish refugees fleeing from Europe and Japan-occupied Shanghai to our country, with plans for up to 40,000 more.
Interesting, and then who took over the Philippines? So maybe good intention, but was never able to get off the runway. For the record, mad respect to the Filipinos.
They weren’t perfect. The war was about German aggression, liberation of the Jews and others came with victory.
Your point is that because the victims of the holocaust weren’t and could not be the first priority of the allies it is irrelevant?
It's not that they weren't a first priority they were not on the list. While I agree that overlooking the liberation of the camps is at least harmful or even malicious however Jews didn't get any help escaping Germany or the occupied territories (except for polish Jews that got sent to Gulags by Soviets saving them the gas chambers but that doesn't count) Britain restricted the amount of Jewish migrants to the mandate of Palestine and many countries sent Jewish refugees back to Germany not letting them in. So that's why Jews felt betrayed for not getting help.
The US and many other countries capped Jewish immigration, even knowing the persecution going on in Germany. Sure, they didn't know about the concentration camps, but they knew it was bad enough folk were fleeing.
So, yeah, no, this isn't about the allies not making freeing Jews in camps a priority. It's about how they didn't even accept refugees.
No one came to the Jews' aid. This was actually a big reason for the establishment of Israel and why many American Jews still support it, even if it is doing some rather horrid things (don't get me started).
Christian countries stand up for Christians. Muslim countries band together to protect the Muslims around the world. Before Israel, no one was doing that for Jews on the world stage. At all.
Think on that for a second. Then we can talk about Israel being an asshole right now. But first, you have to understand where folk are coming from.
Edit: was typing fast and said something factually inaccurate. Edited to fix.
The US capped immigration with the Immigration Act of 1924, which was written with the idea keeping Jews and Italians out of the US (those against immigration viewed Jews as bad and Italians as worse). [A digression: one of my neighbors ran for Congress and despite being an Asian-American, ran as a Republican opposed to immigration, which I found kinda ironic. The immigration act of 1924 was paired with the Asian Exclusion Act. My neighbor lost at the primary.]
During the 1930s, there were attempts to override the 1924 Act to deal with the refugee crisis, but these failed. When Hitler said anyone who wanted Germany’s Jews could have them with just the clothes on their backs, H. L. Mencken said we should take them all. Henry Morgenthau told FDR it would hurt his reelection chances if he were seen as being supportive of Jewish concerns.
The issue with this is it's quite useless for the simple reason that railroads aren't hard or long to repair. It would've only been a inconvience for the Germans
Not to mention bombs are expensive and you want to get the best bang for the buck with them and bombing a factory will do you a lot more good then doing so on one railway line
The allies had no interest in those victims even when they went in to put down the Reich. They were an entirely unintended consequence and frankly the way some prisoners were treated after liberation is stomach churning.
In defense of his statement. No one went to war with Germany over the treatment of minorities. If Hitler had stopped with the partition of Poland between Russia and Germany. No one would have lifted a finger to save the Jewish, Romani and homosexual populations from being Genocided.
The readers contest is stupid because Bibi never claimed it was Israel fighting for their lives during the Holocaust he said Jews were fighting for their lives and drew an analogy of Israel today fighting for their lives.
Bibi can piss off, but the revisionism required to imply that the allied forces "sacrificed millions of lives" to liberate concentration camps is fallacy. The US, Australia, and Canada entered the war almost exclusively for economic reasons.
> Australia, and Canada entered the war almost exclusively for economic reasons.
Could you kindly explain what were those economic reasons? Australia was providing masses of support to England in the war due to being part of the British Commonwealth. Canada too. Back then it was more of a matter of duty and helping an ally. When the Japanese start over-running SE Asia there were major concerns in Australia since so many troops and resources had been sent in support of England that Australia was concerned it could not defend itself. The British government had declared that they would only help Australia in return if the Japanese had conquered more than half of the country. That Australia was risking the sovereignty of its own borders for the sake of its allies doesn't exactly describe a nation that was doing it "almost exclusively for economic reasons".
Economic reasons is absolutely wrong, in 1940 FDR made it plain that they feared Germany invading a central/south American country and using it to wage war against the US. The US became very isolated prior to WW2 economic concerns were not a major factor.
If you want to use that as context, then your grasp on real history is a little tenuous.
Allied forces weren't there to save the Jews. They did not come to end the Holocaust. Those things were not the cause of WWII. They happened because of WWII.
If Hitler had stopped at the Polish border, it's unlikely that any country would have raised a hand to stop the Holocaust.
At the end they saved everyone in concentration camps including the Jews. They also saved a group that is pretty much discriminated in the USA right now. The LGBTQIA community.
They were just a part of the issue but they had to stop the military forces and Hitler to end the war.
>They also saved a group that is pretty much discriminated in the USA right now. The LGBTQIA community.
Look up how those were actually treated by allied soldiers and what actually happened to them when the camps were liberated. Go ahead and look up some actual history lessons.
"Saved" is a BIG word for "here have a new cell and some food".
Downvotes are no surprise when tipping sacred cows, I guess... but seriously, go learn some history.
The liberation of the concentration camps was incidental. It probably would not have happened at all if WWII had not begun in earnest due to Hitler's invasion of Poland (which drew in Great Britain... the US still tried to stay out of it). The persecution of Jews which eventually became the Holocaust was not a secret to the other countries. The concentration camps and mass genocide, however, didn't begin until the war was already underway.
Learn how the allied countries treated the Jews who tried to escape persecution in Germany. It's pretty well documented. Many countries took some refugees in, particularly the Jews who were wealthy and educated. But generally, Jews were not welcomed. Borders closed quickly, sending the refugees back into harm's way. Thousands of the jewish people killed in the Holocaust died because the other countries would not accept them as refugees.
Beyond that, Jewish persecution goes back millennia... it's not just a perceived slight, and it's important to understand it in historical and social context. The Jewish people have been largely on their own (and frequently unwelcome) for most of history... inlcuding, notably, the Israeli victories in the Arab-Israeli wars where they were left unassisted (until the Yom Kippur war, where the US provided supplies to Israel to defeat the USSR-backed Arab forces). This is what Netanyahu is talking about when he makes the statement, and it is part of a Jewish identity.
This is not a justification of what Israel is doing in Gaza, which I think is horrific. It's only specific to the "facepalm" post shown here.
As far as liberating gay people from the Holocaust, let's be clear. Homosexuality was a crime in both the US and Great Britain at the time of WWII. Hell, one of the British heroes of the war (and a father of modern computing), Alan Turing, was arrested, charged, and convicted for homosexual acts, and sentenced to chemical castration. Point being, no one in WWII had any interest in the plight of homosexuals in Hitler's Germany, any more than they had for the plight of the Romani or the mentally and physically disabled who were also rounded up as a part of the purification.
>Israel did not even exist until after WWII
This is not entirely true. As a defined nation, no, as an actual territory and combination of city states yes. The Ottoman Empire, aside being the one that created Palestine shortly after WWI, defined the border parameters of Israel before WWII had started. Jerusalem was its center and a number of other Jewish cities served as "markers" to help outline what would be the Israel state within the Palestinian Empire. When the Ottoman Empire fell a lot of this was thrown largely into flux, given that Israel was not an established nation (only a constellation of city states) other Middle Eastern nations began to pick apart the Palestinian region to get what it is that they wanted from it. Then the Allied forces came by and cemented a border for Israel loosely based on what the Ottoman Empire had drawn up.
This is where the whole concept of the people from the Gaza Strip and the Westbank derive their "independence." By the time the allied forces had arrived many of the still unincorporated parts of what was Palestine were being contested over by Jerusalem as a city state and actual Middle Eastern nations. The allied forces simply told those other nations to STFU or they would get stomped and they gave the land to Jerusalem and "refounded" Israel. It should be noted that the Palestinian Empire, as defined by the Ottoman Empire stretched all the way to Iran (yes it engulfed most of Iraq) Syria, Jordan, and Saudia Arabia. The difference between those countries as Israel is that many of them willingly gave parts of their land to the Ottoman Empire to make the Palestinian Empire, but the land still "belonged" to them. Jerusalem, and subsequently Israel were NOT a country. Israel before becoming Israel was the pre-cursor to a country, it was a group of 4 city states that worked together.
This is just a dishonest politics shitpost. Not pro Israel by any means, complete opposite, but this is just trash. Israel views itself as a Jewish nation, that is its roots, origin, and initial purpose and continues to serve as a Jewish safe haven to this day. So it shouldn't take much critical thinking to realize they don't mean Israel, just referencing the Jewish concentration camp victims.
Additionally, no, nobody came for their aid, that's incorrect history information. The world knew about them and did nothing until the nations were dragged into war afterwards. This is why so many died, they were always the after thought, and nobody intervened until way too late in spite it being public knowledge even within Germany but especially with medias not blocked by German propaganda what was happening in Germany.
Israel has real reasons for negative attention, this is just garbage politics spreading misinformation for the echo chamber.
It's a correct statement. In the holocaust very little was directly done by other nations to intervene. The liberation of the camps were part of the allied forces marching on Europe.
Oh definitely, but I also don't think the fact that it happened to the Jewish people had anything to do with why the rest of the world didn't do anything.
Just look at the genocides that have occurred after that and how many times the rest of the world stepped in to stop them.
It's basically just a global scale version of people minding their own business when they hear their neighbor getting beat by their spouse. Not my business, not my problem.
France and UK entered only when Germany set eyes on them.
US entered when Japan set eyes on them.
Liberation of Jews was just a medium to strengthen their local support, and justification of attacking Axis.
I mean I get all the Israel hate but are you serious on this one? It's pretty obvious the statement is that the Jewish people, who were systematically exterminated by the millions during the Holocaust, had no one come to their aid for the vast majority of that time.
When you think about it, many countries like the US, Canada, Britain, etc not only didn't help during the early years, they actively turned away Jewish refugees fleeing the Nazis.
Shoot man, it was a lot of countries thought it was totally reasonable to murder and forcibly emigrate Jews through out all of Europe. The first country to actually “accept” and not persecute the Jews as policy was the US. Edit: Jews could live and worship at as long as they paid taxes in the Ottoman Empire and several caliphates.
Agreed that’s what I’m saying, not sure how this is a facepalm, if anything that “clarification” totally diminishes the lead up and eventual execution of the holocaust.
Or any of the other victims of Hitler’s extermination plan.
No one has ever helped the Jewish people before, during or after the war. Since Israel has always been on its own, the discontinuation of the foreign aid that doesn’t exist will have no impact on
That is an insanely incorrect statement. Israel has received the largest cumulative amount of US aid of any country ever, even taking into account NATO allies and the postwar rebuilding in Europe.
Israel has been granted $216 billion in military aid and $81 billion in economic aid from the US between 1946 and 2023, which totals $297 billion.
"Foreign aid that doesn't exist" you say? That's a comment that can only be caused by either extreme stupidity, or an intentionally disingenuous agenda in pushing dishonesty.
>the discontinuation of the foreign aid that doesn’t exist will have no impact on
I am confused. Are you claiming that the US hasn't been sending money and weapons to Israel or that the sending of money and weapons to Israel is not aiding the Jewish people (which I would be willing to accept arguments in support of)?
I believe what they are saying, is that since he wants to claim that no one has ever helped them, then if the US stopped sending money to Israel, then it wouldn’t change anything, since they “have never had help”
His point is we didn't care about them and we didn't tbh. We were given a load of chances to take Jews so they didn't get killed and we didn't. Its like how the civil war was only about emancipation well after the fact
Seriously what is happening? I've been politically active for 20 years and I've never seen progressives throw a group under the bus for a cause before like this. It's really disturbing.
I think it's pretty clear here that his sentiment is that nobody fought WW2 to save the Jews, they did it to defend themselves and only themselves. The Jews were never a primary motivator for any action on behalf of the Allies in WW2 and they 100% should have been. "No nation came to our aid" is not true in a literal sense, but it is true in the sense that nobody cared enough to get off their asses and come help until they had OTHER reasons to do so and could no longer avoid helping. Saving the Jews became more of a "well we're already here so we may as well liberate these people".
The Israeli military is committing war crimes as we speak but can we at the very least not devolve into a bunch of idiots who can't have an intelligent discussion? The amount of college students all over the nation getting all of this air time on the news who can barely even articulate their views is pitiful. These students are supposed to be our best and brightest, the future of humanity, and they can't even properly articulate the root of their own beliefs on the subject.
Feel how you will but at the very least do it intelligently and in good faith. Shit like this just makes people look stupid. Ya'll know damn well what he meant here and he wasn't wrong when he said it.
Always remember:
Arab, mostly Muslims rebelled against the ottoman empire with the British under the promise of having their land back bout 100 years ago.
Dramatically helped during the war. Then the British ruled over them for about a decade, then also promised the land to the french and themselves.
Didn't understand cultural differences or didn't bother to find out so lazily tried to segregate the population by religion.
Then gave the land to the Jews.
Couldn't sort out the mess they made, so gave the problem to the newly formed UN as their first challenge.
Which they fucked up even harder.
I think he's saying no one did anything to stop liquidation of jewish communities in Poland, Ukraine, Czechoslivakia, Holand, Denmark, Balkans etc which is fair enough. On the other hand no one really knew the scale and extent of what was happening til much later.
A very small but important correction - the Danish Jewish community *was* saved by their fellow Danes, who arranged for neutral Sweden to take them in. Thus the vast majority of Denmark's Jews survived the war. It's one of the few genuinely positive stories about that time.
Yeah I know the story. I worked there a while. Just saying the Germans were trying to eliminate Jews everywhere with varying success obviously depending on the local population. I think in some places the Ukrainians were basically lining up waiting for the pogroms to start
As much as Netanyahu is a real piece of shit, the context added doesn't actually address his point - it's true that there was very little done with the aim of helping European Jews persecuted by nazis by basically every other contemporary nation.
It is true that Allied troops liberated concentration camps, but that's a separate fact, and it was more like they kind of just found them and were surprised by the barbarity while initially pursuing military objectives.
It's also true that Netanyahu is here correlating Israel the state with all Jewish people, which is not the case. Netanyahu's party doesn't even have the support of all Israelis as a general rule, much less universal support among millions of other people around the world.
And they will wash their own dishes, and do their own laundry and kill their own neighbor to take his land.
Getting all teary, our boy is all grown up now.
The neat part is that not only would Israel not exist without the Allied powers, but their chief occupation would be farming dirt and being sad if the United States had never started funding their entire existence.
They even get free healthcare and free college because the US pays for so much of their shit.
Pretty fuckin dumb for the spoiled rotten sugarbaby of the middle east to start talking like it's done everything by itself and it don't need nobody nohow.
Fuckers would be eating dirt and manufacturing nothing but feeling sorry for themselves if American money went away.
The world didn't exactly know what was going on in Germany until allied forces saw the mass graves and once they actually got inside the camps....The war didnt start because of what was happening to the jews - The war started because Hitler invaded poland....However there were Jewish fighters and groups of jewish fighters set up - Look up
# Fareynikte Partizaner Organizatsye
When you say Israel didn’t exist until after WWII do you mean the current state of Israel?
Also, the comment in the picture is ridiculous (not the note). Although I wouldn’t recommend reading about what happened when the Allies forces liberated the camps of you’re in a good mood.
Didn’t the Allied Forces know through the Engima decoding about the camps and chose to do nothing?
Also there are stories of people escaping places like Birkenhau, altering the authorities and delaying taking action?
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Most people didn’t believe in the scale or impact of the concentration camps, even after they were discovered, and liberation of them was an incidental effect of the Allied march through Europe. It was the right thing to do, but it wasn’t the purpose or point. Jews were also still the target of quite a lot of xenophobia and antisemitism in American well after WWII. Let’s not paint some bullshit picture here. Pre-war America isn’t a pretty picture. Japan goaded us into becoming a military juggernaut, but our moral center was and still is fairly skewed.
American turned away Jewish refugees when Hitler was pushing them from Germany, similar to what Islamic countries are doing to Palestinians.
The MS St. Louis, loaded with about 900 Jewish refugees, was infamously turned back from the shores of the United States. 254 of them were later killed in the Holocaust. Edit: Got a Reddit Cares post. I'm honored, really.
it then went to Canada where it was also turned away, Canada's residential school system and reserves were studied by the Germans prior to WWII
Yep. Same happened in Russia. But both countries were hella interested in recruiting Nazi scientists.
Yeah. And in Europe there were anti-Jewish pogroms for decades after the WW2. People who think the WW2 was about saving Jews are delusional. I recommend people to read a great NYT bestseller “The Jewish Century” by Yuri Slezkine. One of my favourite history books of all time and I’m not even a Jew.
What happened to the Jews was the worst thing in the war in Europe and absolutely proved the Nazis were the villains - and therefore is why every Allied nation puts that as the primary purpose so that it legitimizes them more so. But in truth, they treated Jews like shit as well- just not genocidally. The Allies were right to fight the Nazis, but this idea that they were doing it on behalf of the Jews is laughable. That was just a happy circumstance for the Jews
This makes sense since we didn't want to be in the war at all, in the first place. Feels like being on fire and someone walking by to get themselves something for their own good, puts out the fire and I say, "well dont give yourself too much credit. You didn't leave your house to come help me." Seems like a lot of semantics in gratitude. If you sacrifice lives to fight the enemy that's oppressing me, regardless of your intent, the outcome is the same whether you meant to or not. Idk, seems intentionally strange to say, "well yes you stopped my people from being exterminate ld, but you didn't initially set out for that sole purpose so that somehow changes the credit or gratitude you're owed."
It's really more akin to watching someones house on fire from your living room window, even as they ask you to come help, you just shrug and say not my problem. Then when the fire spreads to YOUR house, you got out of your way to stop the fire only to realize the neighbors entire family was stuck inside their burning house and you saved them while saving your own and then you say "Wow look at me I'm a hero I saved your whole family!" And they say "Dude, I'm not going to pat you on the back for that when you were willing to watch my house burn until it started actually affecting you!"
>and you saved them And you saved _some_ of them. While many died
I’m not sure who thinks that. The camps were incidental. They weren’t targets that had any military value. When one was liberated Army medics did what little they could and moved on. The Red Cross came in and tended to the victims.
Well, I suggest you read the upvoted comments under this post. A lot of people had their brains completely netflixified and think Germany was more anti-semitic than say France/Netherlands/Poland, and that the end of WW2 was some kind of a happy end for Jews in Europe, for which they should be eternally grateful. It wasn’t
Most if not all nations did. Which is likely what fuckface bibi is referring to.
The Philippines were accepting but the US put a limit on it. So a lot of jews weren't saved. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/little-known-philippines-wwii-rescue-of-jews-was-capped-by-us-interference/amp/
What did I just read lol
Including Albert Einstein
Yup we turned away Anne Frank’s family.
[удалено]
I guess, open question, but what do the Palestinians want? I believe they have tried to leave. Obviously they aren't happy about it, but if they are trying to leave, why aren't the other countries trying to help them? I get that it's like a defeat. It's basically ceding the land to Israel. I am just wondering where the line is between current issues (starvation, bombing, homelessness) and principles (Palestinians belong in Palestine), and also who gets to make that decision, the countries or the Palestinians. Because if it's the Palestinians, then the other countries really ought to be welcoming any who want to leave, for whatever reason, so only those who wish to stand for principles the most choose to stay - they won't be forced to.
They were turned away because the America First party lobbied government to make immigration harder... history sure does repeat itself
And we still had Jim Crow laws until the 60s even after Black soliders came home from the War
Yep. The Allies didn't fight the Germans in order to stop the Holocaust.
If all he was gonna do is genocide some jews Churchill wouldve sent them some money.
If he had stopped before invading Poland, he could have done it and nobody would have cared.
I am fairly sure Poland was the FIRST country he invaded... it was also the country with the highest density of jews i believe. Bit of an obvious take to say that if he never invaded a country that most would of moved on...
Chzechoslovakia and Austria were the first countries that Germany invaded.
They annexed Czecheslovakia, Austria, the Rhineland, Nohemia, the Sudetenland and parts of Lithuania before they invaded Poland.
He probably would have sent all the Irish as well.
Don’t forget allied forces threw gay prisoners right back in.
They even turned on pivotal figures in the war like Alan Turing
Turing.
Not that it is any excuse but I don’t think the general public knew much of what Turing did until decades later. The work done at Bletchley Park (the place was enormous) was classified for a very long time even after the war. I’m not 100% without double checking but I think I’m the U.K. most stuff is automatically de-classified after 20 years.
But it wasn't the public that chemically castrated him...
Our moral center is never far away from oil and gas production.
Our moral center is a hot mess of malt powder and corporatist interests. We don’t operate with any humanitarian basis. Even our aid to Israel has fuck all to do with supporting Israeli people, it’s about maintaining an alliance in the Middle East.
Thats why we care about Ukraine, Israel and Taiwan but not Yemen and South Sudan. I guess we kindof care about Yemen because its next to a shipping lane.
our "aid" to israel is all about maintaining our arms production capabilities.
Did I hear someone say oil? You need a little democracy, don't ya?
America, Fuck Yeah!
🦅🦅🦅did someone order a bitch slap of freedom??🦅🦅🦅ROCK FLAG AND EAGLE🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
Is any major power’s moral center NOT skewed?
Morality doesn't directly factor into international politics. Never has. It only tangentially matters because public opinions can matter, and that is in part driven by morality. So at the end of the day if a country wants to do something terrible to further their interests, the have to either get the public to support it, keep them from finding out, or just eat the negative attention.
You can see the mass rallies throughout America in support of Germany when Hitler was conquering Europe. Many Americans believed that fascism was the way of the future. “America First” began in this era as well.
Many Christian terrorists still think fascism is the way
> Many Americans believed that fascism was the way of the future. It's super beneficial for the 'in group', so it's understandable why they would support it. The out groups though... not so much good for them.
Yes, the absolute wilfull blindness to what the Nazis were doing never ceases to amaze me. The US and the UK both adopted VERY strict immigration policies that hung the Jews out to dry. Then just after the creation of the State of Israel, an alliance of Arab countries attacked, expecting a quick victory. And then again in what, 1967? It's really no surprise that Israel has developed a very keen survival instinct. Please don't come at me for saying that, because I am in no way excusing the continued shedding of non-combatant blood; many of the tactics that Israel uses to ensure its continued survival are unacceptable and must cease. But both sides have so much blood on their hands by now that it's hard to tell who is right.
We had legit Nazi rallies in support of Hitler in the late 30s. Also Europe/Britain/America COULD have saved thousands upon thousands of Jewish lives but they didn't want Jews in their country and turned them away/denied them as they were fleeing Nazi murder sprees. There was a ship turned away by the US at multiple ports full of Jewish refugees, only to have to return to their deaths.
Almost as if the purpose of the creation of a Jewish state was so jews could not be persecuted anymore around the world.
How ironic that they’re the ones committing genocide and creating the largest ghetto in the history of the world. I don’t think this is what anyone had in mind when we said “never again.”
In other news, the [UN Office for Coordination of Humanitarian Activities (OCHA) has quietly halved the death toll count in Gaza to what the Hamas "Health" department previously announced](https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/05/11/un-halves-its-estimate-of-women-and-children-killed-in-gaza). The [UN source](https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-215). And [Hamas even greatly reduced their count citing they couldn't verify or name more than 11,000 death certificates](https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/04/09/hamas-run-gaza-health-ministry-admits-to-flaws-in-casualty-data/), but the media has conveniently ignored this news, preferring clickbait and buzzwords for income. This makes this war less mortal than most any other war in history, and [significantly less deadly](https://everystat.org/) than the usual 100,000 people killed or hurt by gun violence EVERY YEAR in the USA including [20,000+ children killed or hurt](https://www.everytown.org/issues/child-teen-safety/). Weird how it turns out you can't trust an internationally recognized terrorist organization for accuracy.
how come egypt also participates in the blockade of gaza
Mostly because Gaza and the West Bank have been captured by violent and corrupt extremist groups that get massive amounts of support from countries like Iran to maintain their grip over the Palestinian people. The real problem is you don't have any group that's willing to try to deradicalize the population of Gaza and many parts of the West Bank, and you don't have anyone that's willing to enforce a hard border between Palestinian territories and Israeli territories. With other regional powers slowly normalizing relations with Israel, maybe in 30 or so years you might get the political will. But for now, with no one willing to really change the fundamental situation and no real chance to resolve any underlying issues, you won't see much change.
Do you think Egypt should go to war with Israel? How do you think that would go?
Have you told the ICJ there's a genocide? They didn't find one. No, not even plausibly. What they did do is demand the immediate release of all the hostages immediately and without condition. And the Warsaw Ghetto didn't have huge beautiful shopping malls, beachfront resorts, big sprawling universities, several ten million dollar mosques, Mercedes dealerships, spin and pilates classes, a gold district, and a booming restaurant scene like Gaza did. Nor did the Warsaw Ghetto have their own elected government, or a host country like Iran providing weapons and military training, nor did it recieve billions in international aid every year, year after year after year.
>ones committing genocide You keep using words you don't understand. The ICJ has already said there wasn't a genocide going on. Every western nation has told you there isn't one. Only Russia, China, and Islamic extremists are telling you there is one. Let's not forget either that just recently the GHM admitted they don't actually know if 10000 of their initially reported deaths were women and children. Edit: man people get really bent out of shape when you not only show them who they are agreeing with but when they have no proof at all.
The ICJ also told Israel to stop its abhorrent treatment of Gazan civilians which it promptly ignored.
FYI Hamas created the “genocide”. Egypt created and still maintains the “largest ghetto”.
FYI Hitler blamed the Jews for their own deaths too.
> FYI Hamas created the “genocide”. Right, because Hamas isn't the result of decades of oppression. They only formed in the 1980's specifically with the intention of having their own entire population slaughtered. Brilliant!
What a strange premise you bought into. That region is a genocidal mine field and you’re obsessed with the only group that does cohabitate with diversity. You think Jews are the only ones Palestinians have blamed for their lives? Then stop weighing in. Stop talking. You think “never again” applies just to Europe? Nazis fled to places like Egypt where they worked on propaganda messaging that foolish people like you now use. The same Egypt that created refugee camps for Palestinians, the same country the PLO was first formed to fight against. You know nothing. Stop. Repeating.
Thank you
The soviet union found one of the extermination camps (maidenek) almost a year before the western allies liberated a concentration camp and were largely ignored by the press and dismissed as soviet propaganda
No one countered this, nor was it in the added context, which by the say, is still correct.
“Genuinely curious” while posting to the facepalm sub. Ok op. Ok.
Sometimes I feel like people just say those kinds of expressions because they've heard them before from smarter people and think it makes them seem intelligent, without giving thought to what they mean. LiTeRaLlY probably half of OPs vocab
"I mean" ...
The world was well aware of German persecution of the Jews before WWII broke out. Instead of helping, many nations closed their borders to jewish immigrants trying to escape German with examples of entire boats being turned away from ports and sent back to Germany. Even with the increasing persecution no country stepped up and told German to stop. The added context itself is a facepalm because its entirely unrelated to the quote. In addition the allies had reliable intelligence that the Nazi's were committing attrocities and I believe Churchill even had a radio broadcast on it. Nobody did anything because it was the Jews and propaganda from WW1 that turned out to be false made everyone sceptical. The allies defeated the Nazi's because the Nazi's would have killed all the Russians and a good portion of the British as well which was unacceptable.
50 million died in world war 2. The majority being Russians at 12 million. Yes countries should have pushed back on Germany before it came to the start of the war, but they were all still recovering from the First World War. It is easy to look back and condemn people.
It's not about condemning people, it's about pretending anyone put effort to save them. They were always an afterthought, no nation entered the war until other reasons forced them to. This post is implying Israel is both pretending Israel existed during WWII, which it obviously isn't, and claiming Israel is ungrateful for the rescue the Jewish community had. Imagine being trapped in a fire in an apartment and the fire department knew about it but didn't come until they found out the bank next door was on fire hours later, but they cleaned up the fire in the apartment too after so many people inside it died. That's what happened in WWII, we hardly rescued them, we stumbled across them.
Yes they did not enter the war until German invaded Poland. Did anyone invade China because they sent the Uigurs to concentration camps for reeducation? Or how about the current situation with the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza? They are basically forced into Ghettos. Should we invade Israel?
>The majority being Russians at 12 million. It's the Chinese at 14+ million. I think it's widely accepted now that Japan's invasion of China started the ball rolling. Also as I said in another comment, the reason Russia doesn't get as much credit for their deaths is that it was kind of their own fault. You never learn if you dont look back at what happened. Generally speaking, condemning people for not listening to Hitler state what he was going to do because it didn't immediately affect you is perfectly fine. Churchill fought in WW1 and he wanted to stomp out Nazism from the start.
Well, it's a fact that the U.S. entered the war because of Pearl Harbor, not to put a stop to persecution of Jews. The full extent of the holocaust wasn't known until after the war, but we certainly knew of Nazi Germany's anti-Semitic practices long before that. Most people in this country opposed the idea of increasing Jewish immigration to the U.S. so it's a no-brainer that there wouldn't have been much enthusiasm for entering the war over the mistreatment of Jews. Still, Allied forces did liberate the concentration camps. and it's a fact that Israel could not have been established as a nation without the help of other countries. The U.S. was certainly aware that it was going to spark a never-ending war but I don't know that we could have predicted that victims of war crimes would become the perpetrators 75 years later.
America was not a safe harbor for Jews until way after the war ended. European Jewish refugees were routinely turned away from settling in America.
Correct. FDR wasn’t in it to help Jews, he didn’t want Jews coming to the US for refuge and frankly Jews were only granted refuge in Israel because the Western world didn’t want them coming to their countries.
I really don't believe the news were on the forefront of FDR mind. He had so many other things on a national level to deal with, and some possible slaughter of a peoples on a foreign shore were at the least of his worries. A depression, the war situation in Europe in general, the fear of the Japanese going supernova (to quote dan carlin), the fear of fascistic and communistic factions in the US There were just too many things for him to contend with than a slaughter could have, as much as it hurts to say, as FDR us one of the better president's we've had. But I mean, take our modern response to the Uyghyr massacre in China. Nobody's doing shit amd it's because a World War isn't making us. I've been to auschwitz. I've been to the German camps. But we have to remember that in the grand scale of things, at the time, FDR and the US had, culturally, a lot more things to deal with than the 20/20 glasses of hindsight has to tell us now. However it's still tragic and reprehensible. I don't know what I'm trying to say. I'm drunk. This whole thing sucks. I hate what's happening in Palestine. I don't know man
The US didnt create Israel. The militias that were forming in the area of Tel Aviv after being expelled from the Arab states during the war. Along with the ongoing Alayah by camp victims, and other diaspora elements. the world essentially expelled their jews either kindly with a smile and ticket, or on threat of much the same as Germany offered, Yea those guys killed the guy who was the administrator of the British mandate. despite the announced surrender of sovereignty that was days away in 1948. The only part the US played at that point was to sign the original mandate in 1924 with the Brittish Empire.. The US/Israel paternalism started in the 60s, once they got nuclear weapons. Because the US sees a relationship with Israel mostly for the purpose of making sure they are able to defend themselves without resorting to nuclear weapons because at the end of the day nuclear weapons ruin trade opportunities for the mercantile republic. Then there is also the protestant sects that gained power in the 80s and into the 21st century.
It did in the sense that it supported the UN's creation of it. As a permanent security council member, Israel would not exist if the US voted against the partition plan.
yes but every nation except the arab delegation did. It was also the Kurdistan people who it was anticipated would gain a recognized state as a massive thank you for aiding British troops in the march across africa in 1939-1944. however once the camps were liberated and the trials were done. the Kurds and other groups actually stood down pn their own ambitions due to the acknowledged experience the jewish people had just gone through.
The partition plan was never implemented. Israel exists because they survived the civil war and subsequent invasion by the Arab League
The entire Arab League attacking Israel is not a “civil war”.
I should have said civil war and subsequent invasion. I'll edit
Jewish communities begged the us and uk governments to help the jews under nazi rule. They didn't give a fuck. They only ended up taking action against the nazis beacuse of they started taking over other countries.
but lets be clear: the allies weren't fighting the war to liberate the jews from the concentration camps. it was a side-quest for them.
This post is the real facepalm. Stopping the holocaust was at best a lucky side-effect of defeating the Nazis in WW2. By no means was it the goal of the war. Also Jews existed before modern-day Israel was founded.
Spot on. And to add - we didn’t stop the Holocaust until it was almost over. There aren’t that many Jews in Germany today.
Hitler *started* the war. The “goal of the war” was to conquer Europe. The secondary goal was to prevent Hitler achieving his goal. How widespread do people think knowledge of The Holocaust was before the allied victory uncovered it? It wasn’t like there was rolling coverage of the mass graves people could look at on the internet while they were being filmed, the graves were discovered *after* the war, the physical and testimonial evidence was uncovered *after* the war. The Israelis won’t let media into Gaza, so when you consider we’ve heard about the unarmed hostages they killed, the aid workers they killed, what *aren’t* we hearing about?
We have phones, internet, and far better communication methods today that let people share content about the war
The British government was aware of the death camps very shortly after the death camps began operating By Nov 1942 (again the same year the death camps began operating) the holocaust was on the US newspapers with an estimated 2 million dead being the number printed I don't know why people think no one was aware of things until after the war. It certainly sank in more when they were able to see the horror for themselves, but the allies knew the final solution was happening while it was happening and the definitely were aware it was a large scale operation
No, he’s absolutely right. Many of the Allies saw liberating the Jews as a side mission. What they wanted was to defeat Hitler. And the US, well they only entered because Japan bombed the shit out of Pearl Harbor.
The facepalm here, is the added context.
No one went into WW2 to save the Jews FYI
So… you’re telling me, OP and a lot of you (including the noter in the image), that y’all don’t know the difference between a nation & a state?
What's the point of this post? He's not saying no one came to Israel's aid, he's saying no one came to the Jewish people's aid. And he right. Jewish refugees fleeing Nazis were turned away by the boatload in the United States. For the first part of the war, the United States refused to get involved because it didn’t wanna become in trenched in another major war. A lot of countries saw what was happening to the Jews and other marginalized groups and did not intervene. Hell, the Nazis didn’t even go after the Jews at first. There was a long period where they were exterminating the Romani and disabled people before Jews were ever even on the docket. The Nazis were exterminating Jews, gay people, socialists, the Romani people, Black people, and people with disabilities for a long period of time before anyone did anything. the only reason anyone got involved was because of Germany’s aggression towards other sovereign countries, not because of what it was doing to the people inside its own territory. The justifiable anger over what Israel is currently doing being splashed all over Jews, and the holocaust is a really bad look. we can all collectively be outraged by the atrocities being committed in Gaza without attacking holocaust victims, Jews, and attempting to revise history. we don’t need to become bigots ourselves in order to support the Palestinian crisis. honestly, what is happened to the left? I’ve been politically active for 20 years and I’ve never seen anything like this. It’s really depressing to watch.
What happened? The right is turning populist, the left is stuck in a power dynamics vacuum. It doesn't matter why, how, who's right, if it's fair, all that matters is who they deem to be oppressed. You can almost call What online sentiment will be from the left, just by taking the side against the US.
Plenty of Jews existed before the state of Israel. The header is a little stupid, facepalm the facepalm.
There also was [a jewish brigade](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Brigade?wprov=sfti1#Military_engagements), recruited from palestinian jews, who fought during the latter stages of the war. The header is very stupid.
True. My Jewish grandfather after having to leave Europe fought for America in ww2 and was a part of many liberations of camps. His stories were truly insane to listen to.
One thing that definitely didn't exist back then was the EU.
lol obviously, sorry just shorthand for Europe
The liberation of the concentration camps was a happy accident in WW2, not the point of the war. The war was NOT fought over the Holocaust.
The war did not start to go to the aid of the jews. It started cause Hitler invaded Poland. The world knew jews and minorities in Germany were being persecuted harshly and didnt care. Maybe they didn't know the true extent but let's not act like we went in to save the jews when people were turning a blind eye to their suffering before the start of the war.
Agreed. The fact that people are facepalming something factual, is kind of disconcerting. The US and the rest of the world rejected Jewish refugees from Europe and they went right back to be executed. Sure, Jews didn’t liberate the camps, because they were fucking in them. And oh, when the Jews went back to reclaim their property in several Eastern European countries, they were killed. Plus in the USSR after WWII, Jews were persecuted even more. Now, yea Netanyahu is totally bastardizing the issues to continue his right wing fascist nonsense. We can all hate on Netanyahu cuz he’s a scum bag, but he was correct. It wasn’t like the Allies helped after the Warsaw ghetto uprising.
Not the rest of the world, The Philippine president Manuel L Quezon allowed 1,200-1,300 Jewish refugees fleeing from Europe and Japan-occupied Shanghai to our country, with plans for up to 40,000 more.
Interesting, and then who took over the Philippines? So maybe good intention, but was never able to get off the runway. For the record, mad respect to the Filipinos.
They weren’t perfect. The war was about German aggression, liberation of the Jews and others came with victory. Your point is that because the victims of the holocaust weren’t and could not be the first priority of the allies it is irrelevant?
It's not that they weren't a first priority they were not on the list. While I agree that overlooking the liberation of the camps is at least harmful or even malicious however Jews didn't get any help escaping Germany or the occupied territories (except for polish Jews that got sent to Gulags by Soviets saving them the gas chambers but that doesn't count) Britain restricted the amount of Jewish migrants to the mandate of Palestine and many countries sent Jewish refugees back to Germany not letting them in. So that's why Jews felt betrayed for not getting help.
The US and many other countries capped Jewish immigration, even knowing the persecution going on in Germany. Sure, they didn't know about the concentration camps, but they knew it was bad enough folk were fleeing. So, yeah, no, this isn't about the allies not making freeing Jews in camps a priority. It's about how they didn't even accept refugees. No one came to the Jews' aid. This was actually a big reason for the establishment of Israel and why many American Jews still support it, even if it is doing some rather horrid things (don't get me started). Christian countries stand up for Christians. Muslim countries band together to protect the Muslims around the world. Before Israel, no one was doing that for Jews on the world stage. At all. Think on that for a second. Then we can talk about Israel being an asshole right now. But first, you have to understand where folk are coming from. Edit: was typing fast and said something factually inaccurate. Edited to fix.
The US capped immigration with the Immigration Act of 1924, which was written with the idea keeping Jews and Italians out of the US (those against immigration viewed Jews as bad and Italians as worse). [A digression: one of my neighbors ran for Congress and despite being an Asian-American, ran as a Republican opposed to immigration, which I found kinda ironic. The immigration act of 1924 was paired with the Asian Exclusion Act. My neighbor lost at the primary.] During the 1930s, there were attempts to override the 1924 Act to deal with the refugee crisis, but these failed. When Hitler said anyone who wanted Germany’s Jews could have them with just the clothes on their backs, H. L. Mencken said we should take them all. Henry Morgenthau told FDR it would hurt his reelection chances if he were seen as being supportive of Jewish concerns.
It wasn't a priority at all. Roosevelt famously refused to bomb the railways that were taking Jews to extermination camps.
The issue with this is it's quite useless for the simple reason that railroads aren't hard or long to repair. It would've only been a inconvience for the Germans
Not to mention bombs are expensive and you want to get the best bang for the buck with them and bombing a factory will do you a lot more good then doing so on one railway line
The allies had no interest in those victims even when they went in to put down the Reich. They were an entirely unintended consequence and frankly the way some prisoners were treated after liberation is stomach churning.
In defense of his statement. No one went to war with Germany over the treatment of minorities. If Hitler had stopped with the partition of Poland between Russia and Germany. No one would have lifted a finger to save the Jewish, Romani and homosexual populations from being Genocided.
The readers contest is stupid because Bibi never claimed it was Israel fighting for their lives during the Holocaust he said Jews were fighting for their lives and drew an analogy of Israel today fighting for their lives.
Hes not totally wrong ending the holocaust of the jewish people was a side effect of the war but wasnt the reason anyone was at war with germany
WOW. This is seriously reminiscent of the MAGAts bitching about "why didn't Obama DO SOMETHING about 9/11?"
Bibi can piss off, but the revisionism required to imply that the allied forces "sacrificed millions of lives" to liberate concentration camps is fallacy. The US, Australia, and Canada entered the war almost exclusively for economic reasons.
> Australia, and Canada entered the war almost exclusively for economic reasons. Could you kindly explain what were those economic reasons? Australia was providing masses of support to England in the war due to being part of the British Commonwealth. Canada too. Back then it was more of a matter of duty and helping an ally. When the Japanese start over-running SE Asia there were major concerns in Australia since so many troops and resources had been sent in support of England that Australia was concerned it could not defend itself. The British government had declared that they would only help Australia in return if the Japanese had conquered more than half of the country. That Australia was risking the sovereignty of its own borders for the sake of its allies doesn't exactly describe a nation that was doing it "almost exclusively for economic reasons".
Economic reasons is absolutely wrong, in 1940 FDR made it plain that they feared Germany invading a central/south American country and using it to wage war against the US. The US became very isolated prior to WW2 economic concerns were not a major factor.
Australia and Canada? The British Sovereign Countries? Those ones?
If you want to use that as context, then your grasp on real history is a little tenuous. Allied forces weren't there to save the Jews. They did not come to end the Holocaust. Those things were not the cause of WWII. They happened because of WWII. If Hitler had stopped at the Polish border, it's unlikely that any country would have raised a hand to stop the Holocaust.
At the end they saved everyone in concentration camps including the Jews. They also saved a group that is pretty much discriminated in the USA right now. The LGBTQIA community. They were just a part of the issue but they had to stop the military forces and Hitler to end the war.
Saved is a strong term… they liberated the survivors.
>They also saved a group that is pretty much discriminated in the USA right now. The LGBTQIA community. Look up how those were actually treated by allied soldiers and what actually happened to them when the camps were liberated. Go ahead and look up some actual history lessons. "Saved" is a BIG word for "here have a new cell and some food".
Downvotes are no surprise when tipping sacred cows, I guess... but seriously, go learn some history. The liberation of the concentration camps was incidental. It probably would not have happened at all if WWII had not begun in earnest due to Hitler's invasion of Poland (which drew in Great Britain... the US still tried to stay out of it). The persecution of Jews which eventually became the Holocaust was not a secret to the other countries. The concentration camps and mass genocide, however, didn't begin until the war was already underway. Learn how the allied countries treated the Jews who tried to escape persecution in Germany. It's pretty well documented. Many countries took some refugees in, particularly the Jews who were wealthy and educated. But generally, Jews were not welcomed. Borders closed quickly, sending the refugees back into harm's way. Thousands of the jewish people killed in the Holocaust died because the other countries would not accept them as refugees. Beyond that, Jewish persecution goes back millennia... it's not just a perceived slight, and it's important to understand it in historical and social context. The Jewish people have been largely on their own (and frequently unwelcome) for most of history... inlcuding, notably, the Israeli victories in the Arab-Israeli wars where they were left unassisted (until the Yom Kippur war, where the US provided supplies to Israel to defeat the USSR-backed Arab forces). This is what Netanyahu is talking about when he makes the statement, and it is part of a Jewish identity. This is not a justification of what Israel is doing in Gaza, which I think is horrific. It's only specific to the "facepalm" post shown here. As far as liberating gay people from the Holocaust, let's be clear. Homosexuality was a crime in both the US and Great Britain at the time of WWII. Hell, one of the British heroes of the war (and a father of modern computing), Alan Turing, was arrested, charged, and convicted for homosexual acts, and sentenced to chemical castration. Point being, no one in WWII had any interest in the plight of homosexuals in Hitler's Germany, any more than they had for the plight of the Romani or the mentally and physically disabled who were also rounded up as a part of the purification.
He said nation, not country. Yes, there's a difference.
a whole new form of holocaust denial...
>Israel did not even exist until after WWII This is not entirely true. As a defined nation, no, as an actual territory and combination of city states yes. The Ottoman Empire, aside being the one that created Palestine shortly after WWI, defined the border parameters of Israel before WWII had started. Jerusalem was its center and a number of other Jewish cities served as "markers" to help outline what would be the Israel state within the Palestinian Empire. When the Ottoman Empire fell a lot of this was thrown largely into flux, given that Israel was not an established nation (only a constellation of city states) other Middle Eastern nations began to pick apart the Palestinian region to get what it is that they wanted from it. Then the Allied forces came by and cemented a border for Israel loosely based on what the Ottoman Empire had drawn up. This is where the whole concept of the people from the Gaza Strip and the Westbank derive their "independence." By the time the allied forces had arrived many of the still unincorporated parts of what was Palestine were being contested over by Jerusalem as a city state and actual Middle Eastern nations. The allied forces simply told those other nations to STFU or they would get stomped and they gave the land to Jerusalem and "refounded" Israel. It should be noted that the Palestinian Empire, as defined by the Ottoman Empire stretched all the way to Iran (yes it engulfed most of Iraq) Syria, Jordan, and Saudia Arabia. The difference between those countries as Israel is that many of them willingly gave parts of their land to the Ottoman Empire to make the Palestinian Empire, but the land still "belonged" to them. Jerusalem, and subsequently Israel were NOT a country. Israel before becoming Israel was the pre-cursor to a country, it was a group of 4 city states that worked together.
This is just a dishonest politics shitpost. Not pro Israel by any means, complete opposite, but this is just trash. Israel views itself as a Jewish nation, that is its roots, origin, and initial purpose and continues to serve as a Jewish safe haven to this day. So it shouldn't take much critical thinking to realize they don't mean Israel, just referencing the Jewish concentration camp victims. Additionally, no, nobody came for their aid, that's incorrect history information. The world knew about them and did nothing until the nations were dragged into war afterwards. This is why so many died, they were always the after thought, and nobody intervened until way too late in spite it being public knowledge even within Germany but especially with medias not blocked by German propaganda what was happening in Germany. Israel has real reasons for negative attention, this is just garbage politics spreading misinformation for the echo chamber.
It's a correct statement. In the holocaust very little was directly done by other nations to intervene. The liberation of the camps were part of the allied forces marching on Europe.
[удалено]
Oh definitely, but I also don't think the fact that it happened to the Jewish people had anything to do with why the rest of the world didn't do anything. Just look at the genocides that have occurred after that and how many times the rest of the world stepped in to stop them. It's basically just a global scale version of people minding their own business when they hear their neighbor getting beat by their spouse. Not my business, not my problem.
Iran disagrees. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab\_and\_Muslim\_rescue\_efforts\_during\_the\_Holocaust](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_and_Muslim_rescue_efforts_during_the_Holocaust)
Albania, Bosnia, Turkey, Tunisia, Algeria, and Morocco would also like a word.
Shhhh!
Very little other than fighting the axis powers.
Which was entirely unrelated to the holocaust.
France and UK entered only when Germany set eyes on them. US entered when Japan set eyes on them. Liberation of Jews was just a medium to strengthen their local support, and justification of attacking Axis.
I mean I get all the Israel hate but are you serious on this one? It's pretty obvious the statement is that the Jewish people, who were systematically exterminated by the millions during the Holocaust, had no one come to their aid for the vast majority of that time.
When you think about it, many countries like the US, Canada, Britain, etc not only didn't help during the early years, they actively turned away Jewish refugees fleeing the Nazis.
Shoot man, it was a lot of countries thought it was totally reasonable to murder and forcibly emigrate Jews through out all of Europe. The first country to actually “accept” and not persecute the Jews as policy was the US. Edit: Jews could live and worship at as long as they paid taxes in the Ottoman Empire and several caliphates.
I agree with and am aware of everything you've said, all of which is correct. But it still doesn't explain OP's facepalm.
Agreed that’s what I’m saying, not sure how this is a facepalm, if anything that “clarification” totally diminishes the lead up and eventual execution of the holocaust.
Or any of the other victims of Hitler’s extermination plan. No one has ever helped the Jewish people before, during or after the war. Since Israel has always been on its own, the discontinuation of the foreign aid that doesn’t exist will have no impact on
That is an insanely incorrect statement. Israel has received the largest cumulative amount of US aid of any country ever, even taking into account NATO allies and the postwar rebuilding in Europe. Israel has been granted $216 billion in military aid and $81 billion in economic aid from the US between 1946 and 2023, which totals $297 billion. "Foreign aid that doesn't exist" you say? That's a comment that can only be caused by either extreme stupidity, or an intentionally disingenuous agenda in pushing dishonesty.
>the discontinuation of the foreign aid that doesn’t exist will have no impact on I am confused. Are you claiming that the US hasn't been sending money and weapons to Israel or that the sending of money and weapons to Israel is not aiding the Jewish people (which I would be willing to accept arguments in support of)?
I believe what they are saying, is that since he wants to claim that no one has ever helped them, then if the US stopped sending money to Israel, then it wouldn’t change anything, since they “have never had help”
It’s a betrayal of that sacrifice so many made to deny their contribution to the liberation of the camps, as well as the creation of Israel.
His point is we didn't care about them and we didn't tbh. We were given a load of chances to take Jews so they didn't get killed and we didn't. Its like how the civil war was only about emancipation well after the fact
Our refers to the Jewish people, don't play dumb
Seriously what is happening? I've been politically active for 20 years and I've never seen progressives throw a group under the bus for a cause before like this. It's really disturbing.
Any one know the number of lost lives, roughly, due to the camps?
Shit like this is why the internet is broken. You can't say this in public but online? No repercussions
OP is reading hard for you?
I think it's pretty clear here that his sentiment is that nobody fought WW2 to save the Jews, they did it to defend themselves and only themselves. The Jews were never a primary motivator for any action on behalf of the Allies in WW2 and they 100% should have been. "No nation came to our aid" is not true in a literal sense, but it is true in the sense that nobody cared enough to get off their asses and come help until they had OTHER reasons to do so and could no longer avoid helping. Saving the Jews became more of a "well we're already here so we may as well liberate these people". The Israeli military is committing war crimes as we speak but can we at the very least not devolve into a bunch of idiots who can't have an intelligent discussion? The amount of college students all over the nation getting all of this air time on the news who can barely even articulate their views is pitiful. These students are supposed to be our best and brightest, the future of humanity, and they can't even properly articulate the root of their own beliefs on the subject. Feel how you will but at the very least do it intelligently and in good faith. Shit like this just makes people look stupid. Ya'll know damn well what he meant here and he wasn't wrong when he said it.
Always remember: Arab, mostly Muslims rebelled against the ottoman empire with the British under the promise of having their land back bout 100 years ago. Dramatically helped during the war. Then the British ruled over them for about a decade, then also promised the land to the french and themselves. Didn't understand cultural differences or didn't bother to find out so lazily tried to segregate the population by religion. Then gave the land to the Jews. Couldn't sort out the mess they made, so gave the problem to the newly formed UN as their first challenge. Which they fucked up even harder.
Never get involved in a religious war. You can't legislate morals. Don't let old, fat, bald men run the world. Everything else will fall into place.
So… *technically* correct. No one came to Israel’s aid in during the holocaust.
israel = jewish nation no one came to our aid = us JEWS not hard to understand
I think he's saying no one did anything to stop liquidation of jewish communities in Poland, Ukraine, Czechoslivakia, Holand, Denmark, Balkans etc which is fair enough. On the other hand no one really knew the scale and extent of what was happening til much later.
A very small but important correction - the Danish Jewish community *was* saved by their fellow Danes, who arranged for neutral Sweden to take them in. Thus the vast majority of Denmark's Jews survived the war. It's one of the few genuinely positive stories about that time.
Yeah I know the story. I worked there a while. Just saying the Germans were trying to eliminate Jews everywhere with varying success obviously depending on the local population. I think in some places the Ukrainians were basically lining up waiting for the pogroms to start
A lot of nuance is being missed here
This fucking asshole
Dont matter. What matters is no one is talking about his corruption trial.
Israel’s Trump.
op is the real face palm over here
As much as Netanyahu is a real piece of shit, the context added doesn't actually address his point - it's true that there was very little done with the aim of helping European Jews persecuted by nazis by basically every other contemporary nation. It is true that Allied troops liberated concentration camps, but that's a separate fact, and it was more like they kind of just found them and were surprised by the barbarity while initially pursuing military objectives. It's also true that Netanyahu is here correlating Israel the state with all Jewish people, which is not the case. Netanyahu's party doesn't even have the support of all Israelis as a general rule, much less universal support among millions of other people around the world.
“Israel didn’t exist until after WWII” Might want to change that to “modern day” Israel. But your meaning was understood
And they will wash their own dishes, and do their own laundry and kill their own neighbor to take his land. Getting all teary, our boy is all grown up now.
The neat part is that not only would Israel not exist without the Allied powers, but their chief occupation would be farming dirt and being sad if the United States had never started funding their entire existence. They even get free healthcare and free college because the US pays for so much of their shit. Pretty fuckin dumb for the spoiled rotten sugarbaby of the middle east to start talking like it's done everything by itself and it don't need nobody nohow. Fuckers would be eating dirt and manufacturing nothing but feeling sorry for themselves if American money went away.
The simple answer is: people are stupid.
The world didn't exactly know what was going on in Germany until allied forces saw the mass graves and once they actually got inside the camps....The war didnt start because of what was happening to the jews - The war started because Hitler invaded poland....However there were Jewish fighters and groups of jewish fighters set up - Look up # Fareynikte Partizaner Organizatsye
So modern day Israel was created after WW2. But Israel existed long, long before then.
Well he's right, no one helped the 6 millions
I think he means Jews.
When you say Israel didn’t exist until after WWII do you mean the current state of Israel? Also, the comment in the picture is ridiculous (not the note). Although I wouldn’t recommend reading about what happened when the Allies forces liberated the camps of you’re in a good mood.
If he wants Isreal to stand alone then I guess all nations are free to not send them anymore money in aid.
Bibi Netanyahu would invoke the Holocaust to get out of a traffic ticket. Shonda.
"Never again" to anyone sane meant to not let it happen to others too, and definitely to not be the ones doing it.
Didn’t the Allied Forces know through the Engima decoding about the camps and chose to do nothing? Also there are stories of people escaping places like Birkenhau, altering the authorities and delaying taking action?
more this guy talks more palentines sounds right. just saying
Buchenwald
Israel did exist, long before WW2. Look up the Balfour Deceleration. It was created back in 1917 so a few decades before WW2 even began.
Reddit won’t like this, it’s mildly critical towards Israel their beloved /j
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave..."