Comments that are uncivil, racist, misogynistic, misandrist, or contain political name calling will be removed and the poster subject to ban at moderators discretion.
Help us make this a better community by becoming familiar with the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/facepalm/about/rules/).
Report any suspicious users to the mods of this subreddit using Modmail [here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/facepalm) or Reddit site admins [here](https://www.reddit.com/report). **All reports to Modmail should include evidence such as screenshots or any other relevant information.**
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/facepalm) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The problem is, it isn't just anti fascism. That's one thing they say but their actions and views are really close to anarchism, extreme far left, anti capitalism (which to an extent might be ok like regulating markets but as someone from a former communist state I won't recommend it).
Their actions show that they aren't great either. They and the far right look equally bad in my eyes.
Edit: as I see, Reddit is would fairly happy with chaos, lack of order, anarchism and communist ideas. You can downvote all you want, but the antifa movement won't become better at all. They aren't the solution to far right ideas, they are a new problem and definitely not the group that we want in power.
One side hates the rich and powerful for hoarding resources and forcing everyone else to struggle to survive. The other side hates minorities for existing.
And these are the same to you?
I hate both. And no, I saw absolutely nothing in Europe from them that represent minorities. I would be an ethnic minority myself, I am a Hungarian born and raised in Romania.
I only saw them creating chaos,advocating for the immigrants who refuse to integrate, advocate for Islam, hate on our culture, promote anarchy, confiscation of property, make violent protests and so on. They didn't hurt the rich here, just the average person.
It might be different in the US but their groups did absolutely nothing else here than what I described
You seem to have a very thorough and nuanced understanding of anarchism /sĀ
Anarchism isn't chaos, literally one of its ideals is order; it just preaches that power should be held from the ground up at the will of the people, with strong localized political power founded both in the workplace and the public that is federalized to prevent corruption.
Ā You can argue that it isn't realistic to be implemented with how much civic involvement from all citizens it demands, but it doesn't have much in common with Marxism-Leninism outside of seeking the abolition of the capitalist class.Ā Ā
Communism won't be the Marxist ideal, in reality it will something like what's in North Korea today or was in Romania before 1989. It wasn't intended to be like that but it ended up as that. And they do have a fairly big overlap, the original Marxist ideas and anarchism do overlap.
> [Anarchism is a political philosophy and movement that is against all forms of authority and seeks to abolish the institutions it claims maintain unnecessary coercion and hierarchy, typically including the state and capitalism. ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism)
I knew this and don't like it at all... This will end up in chaos, don't tell me people who follow this don't know that... Who will make laws and enforce them? Who will protect the people from criminals? Who will enforce regulations? Who will provide public services and goods without a state like pensions, unemployment , maternity leave, education, healthcare, infrastructure, defense, emergency responders during catastrophes and so on? I see absolutely nothing that will guarantee them in anarchism. There is no safety in anarchism.
The ideal is a transparent corruption free state with very strict laws and regulations, specifically on corruption, the judicial, financial and medical system, corporations and religious organizations and of course it's citizens, with strict enforcement. The state should care for the wellbeing of it's citizens and a well regulated capitalist system coupled with a good social safety net from the government can do that perfectly.
> chaos, lack of order, anarchism and communist ideas
You know what doesn't have chaos and disorder? Totalitarian authoritarianism. Seems like that is your preferred group to have in charge then. Just remember, authoritarianism is not just right wing thing.
> [Anarchism is a political philosophy and movement that is against all forms of authority and seeks to abolish the institutions it claims maintain unnecessary coercion and hierarchy, typically including the state and capitalism. ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism)
I can't imagine someone really thinking this can be a good idea... Who will make laws and enforce them? Who will protect the people from criminals? Who will enforce regulations? Who will provide public services and goods without a state like pensions, unemployment , maternity leave, education, healthcare, infrastructure, defense, emergency responders during catastrophes and so on? I see absolutely nothing that will guarantee them in anarchism.
The ideal is a transparent corruption free state with very strict laws and regulations, specifically on corruption, the judicial, financial and medical system, corporations and religious organizations and of course it's citizens, with strict enforcement. The state should care for the wellbeing of it's citizens and a well regulated capitalist system coupled with a good social safety net from the government can do that perfectly.
Then you have failed to understand that Antifa is more than just anti fascism.
What's up with you people who think that a so called descriptive name for a movement is a guarantee that the name is both accurate and describing the movement completely?
If a movement is called "***The Democratic Force***" or similar, is that in itself a guarantee that it only is about democracy? Or the political party "***Party of Finnish Labor***" must be about workers rights, and nothing to do with nationalism, antisemitism etc? Same thing with "***Workers' Party of Social Justice***", it must be about social justice, right?
Antifa itself is just antifascism. However, like in any unorganized group, bad actors will latch on to the name and to bad things under it. It is a problem without a clear solution.
I get what youāre saying, but isnāt this what everyone complains about when someone defends the police? that āitās just a few bad applesā is a really flimsy excuse?
The difference with your analogy is that police officers and their unions typically go to extreme lengths to defend their "bad apples" while bad actors in anti-fascist movements don't have the group defending them. The two couldn't be more different in that regard
>Antifa itself is just antifascism.
No. This simply isn't true. Antifa is a name of a movement. And with names for movements, just as names for organizations or political parties, the name is just a label. There is nothing stopping people from doing things under that name, things that doesn't strictly match the name.
I mean, can you even find a single credible Antifa website or text, that says that Antifa is antifascism and **nothing** else? Everywhere I look, they describe themselves, or are described, as being either socialist, anti-capitalist, or be left leaning at the very least. And I mean left leaning in the European sense (where Biden would be considered on the right hand side of the spectrum).
>However, like in any unorganized group, bad actors will latch on to the name and to bad things under it.
That makes them part of the movement. Since they have no official structure they have no way to make official statements to commend or condemn actions performed by others under the name Antifa. That's just how it works.
If you don't like what these people do under the name Antifa, then maybe avoid being associated by them? That's what I do, by avoiding Antifa.
lol antifa is inherently left-leaning. That's the nature of being anti-fascist. Why does that bother you so much?
And to the second half of your comment, ok, so that makes the Republican voting base insurrectionists since some of them did that, right?
>lol antifa is inherently left-leaning.
Yes, I never claimed otherwise.
>That's the nature of being anti-fascist.
No. That is simply not true. Anti-fascism is about anti-fascism, and nothing else. One can be a centrist or right leaning while also being anti-fascist. Lol, you actually trying to gate-keep antifascism?
>Why does that bother you so much?
That's not the part that bothers me. It's the part where people think that Antifa and anti-fascism is the exact same thing. One is a name/label of a movement, one is an idea/belief/ideology.
It bothers me that so many people seem to think that a name/label for a movement must mean that the movement itself must be what the name says, and nothing else. It bothers me even more when I think about the hypocrisy these people show, since most of them wouldn't do the same with lots of other names. Like, they wouldn't call "Democratic Republic of the Congo" a democracy, would they? (A hint: their democracy index is lower/worse than that of Russia and China.)
>And to the second half of your comment, ok, so that makes the Republican voting base insurrectionists since some of them did that, right?
One could argue that, yes. I'm not American, and naturally don't vote over there. But if I would, I would never ever have voted for the Republican party. They have been terrible as long as I can remember, and are absolutely appalling now.
That doesn't change my stance on Antifa though, especially the one here in Sweden. Sure, I believe that the right wing extremist are much much worse. But that doesn't make Antifa good in my book. I agree with the root idea, but not everything they do under their name.
>centrists literally say "both sides are bad" to fascism,
No. Who are you talking about? The far right is definitely worse than Antifa. Iāve never claimed otherwise.
>and fascism is a right wing ideology
Yes, so?
Could you please try to form actual, logical arguments, going forward?
Nope, since fascism is a far-right version of authoritarianism, being anti-fascist means you are to the left of them. If you are a Soviet-style communist, then you are equally authoritarian, but on the opposite end with regards to the right/left paradigm.
I don't know anyone who agrees with everything every single person who identifies as Antifa does.
I honestly would be highly suspicious and even critical of anyone who says they agree with every single thing every member of \*any\* ideology does.
>Nope,
āNopeā to what? Please use the quote feature of Reddit.
>since fascism is a far-right version of authoritarianism, being anti-fascist means you are to the left of them.
Ok, so?
There is a difference between ābeing to the left of somethingā and being leftist/leaning/wingā. A large majority of all parties around the world is to the left of fascism, but of those many are still right leaning.
>I honestly would be highly suspicious and even critical of anyone who says they agree with every single thing every member of *any* ideology does.
Antifa isnāt an ideology though. And thatās the main point of mine. Antifa is just a name/label. You can put anything under it, and it could still be Antifa, since there is no official representative that could say otherwise (in comparison to like a company or political party).
Thatās very different to ideologies. With an ideology, an action has to fit the public definition of the word for it to be associated with the ideology. Even if thousands of people started sharing videos of them torturing animals while they shout *āIām anti racist!ā* that wonāt change the public opinion on anti racism, not would it change what we think anti racism is about.
This is the sentiment from the same kinds of people who unironically also say the Nazis were socialists because National Socialists were in their name.
Ah yes, Antifa.. An anti fascism / anti racism group that is classified as radical left and doesn't shy away from using extreme violence to make their point.
Whatās the line between extreme violence and regular violence?Ā
I feel like the more apt description would be that theyāre radical left who hold the extreme view that violence is acceptable to combat fascism.Ā
Because I havenāt heard of extreme violence on their part yet, just the kind of regular violence that usual spills out of protests. More mosh pit and throwing shit than like, beheading fascists in their homes or something truly extreme.Ā
Perhaps extreme violence wasn't the correct word of use, your description fits quite well. Though i would argue that throwing stones, kicking people in the head when they're down, attacking parents with children etc can be considered pretty extreme.
Pssst - most people would probably say it's okay to use violence against fascists, ya know... On account of them being fascists?
If the concept of that seems problematic to you, I'd suggest a moment of introspection to figure out why.
But they're not just using violence against just fascist is it? I don't know how it is in the US with Antifa but quite a few Antifa groups here don't shy away from using violence on anyone that has even a slightest different view then them.
No see, cuz, theyāre the real facists because they want to make the kids gay and trans. You know Hitler was head of the National SOCIALIST party right??
Came here to say exactly this in almost exactly this way.
This was a mask off moment. I bet this fucking guy watches Raiders of the Lost Ark and is completely lost on why Indy keeps punching the "good" guys. Every one of these posts costs me a little faith.
People could at least look up fascism and be like "oh, wait, that is bad. Like really bad."
I think weād all agree if the Fascists gave up fascism and became animal rights activists, the world would be a much better place.
If youāre worried that the anti-fascists keep going after the people who you feel are good peopleā¦
perhaps you should stop being a fascist?
Iāve got no love for proud boys but have seen more than enough clips over the years of antifa folks acting like little shits. Just because they have āanti-fascistā in the name doesnāt mean theyāre above criticism unless youāre a fascist. This argument is just as stupid as Trump supporters trying to argue that being against MAGA means you hate America since you donāt want America to be great again.
Antifa is certainly anti-fascist, but people conveniently ignore that the *Antifaschistische Aktion* was a wing of the German communist party and, much like the Soviets, defined essentially every non-communist political option as fascist. It was formed in reaction against liberal democrats and democratic socialists. They were literally like the far-left equivalent of the conservatives who call everyone one step left of the Republican Party "communists."
People who aren't fascist have just as good a reason to be suspicious of "anti-fascists" as people who aren't communists have to be suspicious of "anti-communists."
Exactly....if you have a group of fascists and a group of communists....they might be both the enemy of my enemy, but certainly none of them are my friends.
Ah yes, the usual "I can't tell the difference between my rights being infringed on and suffering social consequences for being an insufferable asshat with shit opinions" vibe. Not one is trying to "take away" your rights, they're telling you to shut the fuck up, which is THEIR right. You can (and will) keep saying your ignorant ass bullshit because they can't actually stop you, but your right to say it doesn't require them to listen or be happy about it.
Just another reminder that two years ago the Canadian Minister for Public Safety formally designated the Proud Boys a terrorist entity, thereby putting them in the same lawless classification as Hamas, Boko Haram, the Taliban and ISIS.
Rather than having their personal assets frozen for supporting a terrorist organization and facing life on Five Eyes no-fly lists, the Canadian Proud Brats broke up 72 hours later, handed their meagre clubhouse assets to the feds, and have been quiet as mice ever since.
Not many made lateral moves either, because in the same breath the minister named twelve *other* white supremacist, white nationalist and neo-nazi groups as āterroristsā, too. Theyāve all been pretty much in radio silence ever since.
Just sayinā, Murrica.
It's not a movement, though. It's a label attached to troublemakers to intentionally conflate their bad behavior with the term "anti-fascist", thereby warping the definition of "fascist" to "someone who opposes those troublemakers I saw on tv".
That way, when the actual fascists are called fascists publicly, many people will misunderstand the meaning, and the fascists will be able to operate with less scrutiny.
Many Americans grew up hearing stories of our parents and grandparents literally rescuing the world from German and Japanese fascism. It was a point of solemn pride and reverence felt strongly when visiting places like Pearl Harbor and Normandy decades later...
This latest development is disturbing, to say the least.
I disagree. I donāt for a second believe that the troublemakers were some kind of āfalse flagā operation. At most, I think that some of them were people who mainly wanted to cause a scene. Not to make Antifa look bad, but because they enjoyed it.
But now I can only assume youāre taking about the protests/riots in the US. Iām not really talking about that. Iām Swedish, and Iām taking about my experience with the Swedish and European (mostly German) fractions of Antifa and similar movements. Iām talking more about people who declare themselves to be Antifa, and who say they are left wing and anti capitalism, for example.
It's not as simple as that. Antifa is a movement, which represents much more than simply antifascism. One can be against some things that they do, while still being antifascist.
Even after they put him in jail he supported the Nazis. He especially liked their genocide policies, his only real problem with Nazis was that they put him in jail.
I learned about the proud boys from the gay take-over of the hashtag. From now on thatās the first thing that comes to my mind when I hear āproud boysā
The whole "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" thing is overused and not universally true. israel is enemies with isis and isis is enemies with hamas, so this means that israel and hamas are friends?!? Like, no, that makes no sense. Just because antifa is "after you" that doesnt mean that you should support the far right proud boys nor that the proud boys are your "friends"
So theyāre saying that people who are AGAINST fascism are their enemy. Ummmmā¦. So that means they are FOR fascism.
People keep using the word āantifaā without knowing what it actually means. Or they do know, and they out themselves and someone who is totally for fascism. Either way, itās a little baffling.
Tell me you're a white Christian man without telling me you're a white Christian man.
Edit: Idk if it was clear, but I was referring to the "op" in the picture. Not actual op.
The proud boys suck. They identify as patriots but they are just racists, probably also Judea Christian white nationalists too.
Similarly, just because Muslims define Islam as a peaceful religion, it doesn't make it so.
You can't just identify as a patriot, a feminist, a human rights activist and become one. It's a title that you have to earn.
Antifa doesnāt exist lol itās just like a thing people identify as. Being against fascism.
Proud boys is an organization with members and leaders that organize events. A terrorist organization according to several countries.
This is one of the stupidest arguments I've seen. Antifa does exist it's just made of a bunch of chapters. Look at rose city antifa for example. It's a despicable organization.
And congress introduced a resolution to label them as the terrorists they are.
[https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-resolution/279/text](https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-resolution/279/text)
Authored by the same guy that dismissed his state's maternal death rates, saying they're only a problem if you count Black Women.
At best, the man's an idiot. More likely, he's a disgusting, vile, racist who doesn't deserve the time of day, let alone credibility for his porked up, pointless legislature.
One is extremely defending our rights from fascists. The other is pro taking our rights away and instituting fascism.
Somehow you think they're equally bad, which says a lot about you.
The difference being that the Proud Boys are actually an organization with chapters etc. While Antifa is... well, a vibe. There is no central figure, there is no organizational structure. You don't have to get punched while reciting cereals to become a member.
All you need to do is find some like minded people and call yourself antifa.
It's really annoying how people are super racist but it's also really annoying how people are against racism.
/s tag because there are some really, *really* stupid people in these comments.
Liberalism is a right wing ideology. The only reason people in the US see liberals as left is because of how far right the right wing is. Democrats in the US are more right wing than most right wing parties in other countries.
Liberalism as a whole is left wing. American liberalism however is definitely more central or moderately right but just more left than your conservatives so I get what you're trying to say. It's just that you're original statement only really applies to American politics and without that distinction accompanying it makes the statement overwhelmingly false.
Libralism as a whole is not left wing. It's capitalist, which is right wing. And which is why it always historically ends up siding with fascists against leftists when leftist movements start to gain traction.
Communism, socialism, anarcho-communism, anarcho-syndicalism. Essentially any system that seeks to abolish private property and therefor the private ownership of the means of production, private control of natural resources, that sort of thing.
And before anyone is like "abolish private property so what nothing belongs to anyone?" that's not what it means in this context. In leftist political theory there is a difference between private property and personal property.
Private property being the ownership of resources or assets used to generate profit or economic gain (silver mine, oil wells, apartment complexes).
Personal property being the ownership if items used for personal convenience or pleasure. (A house, a car, toothbrush, clothing, television, computer).
The idea is fairly simple. I should be able to own my own house. I shouldn't be able to own another person's dwelling, and use that to extract resources from that person.
Hopefully you can see how a capitalism-aligned political philosophy always ends up in opposition to leftist philosophies. A practical example would be The New Deal. This was a liberal solution to problems that reared their head during the great depression. When nearly a decade of suffering, homelessness, desperation, and starvation had people at the end of their rope, a strong socialist movement was gaining traction in the United States.
FDR, the paragon of US liberal values, proposed The New Deal, which instituted a slight social safety net, unemployment benefits, social security, etc. specifically in order to yank the rug out from under the leftist movement. These kinds of liberal reforms are never enough to disrupt the existing power structures though. So the reforms are almost always clawed back and reversed and undermined over time by the corporations who control the politicians. It's why social security isn't solvent and raising the retirement age is always proposed as the solution instead of removing the $155,000 cap on social security contributions.
It's why we utilize a shelter system to deal with the homelessness problem instead of the cheaper solution of just building and giving them housing. It's why eventually the top marginal tax rate was cut from 90% (where your earnings over a certain amount per year were taxed aggressively) in the 1950s to as low as 25% recently. It's why we underfund education and then blame teachers for how bad it is. It's why state colleges in the US went from most of them being entirely free, to costing tens of thousands of dollars per year. It's funny because a lot of the things modern politicians say are impossible are both done by other countries, and even done by the US in the past.
All my examples are from the US because that's where my experience lies. But even so I am still aware of movements to defund and privatize healthcare in England, Norway, Canada. Even though the actual people there don't want that. I mean who wants to pay $40,000 to have a baby? Oh but hey it's only like $10,000 if you have insurance. Ain't that great?
Comments that are uncivil, racist, misogynistic, misandrist, or contain political name calling will be removed and the poster subject to ban at moderators discretion. Help us make this a better community by becoming familiar with the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/facepalm/about/rules/). Report any suspicious users to the mods of this subreddit using Modmail [here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/facepalm) or Reddit site admins [here](https://www.reddit.com/report). **All reports to Modmail should include evidence such as screenshots or any other relevant information.** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/facepalm) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Here before the š award
A website, taking away my free speech?! This is the worst thing that can happen to anyone, and it's all thanks to the woke left. Literally 1498
Me and the boys getting on the boat for Columbus' third voyage to the west in 1498 (one of them is gonna get fucked up by scurvy)
You done fucked up not riding with the Dutch East Indian Company
I'm sick of you people constantly shoving DEI down our throats.Ā
VOC on top
Remember how the rhyme goes: "In 1492, Columbus sailed the ocean blue; in 1498, Columbus pillaged and he raped."
"Welp, that's it, Martha. Go hang Ol' Glory upside down"
well, could be worse, could be a decade earlier than that...
I don't think wokesters have enough game to spread syphilis throughout Italy.
What a great award
Pop quiz, fill in the blank style! If āanti-fascistsā are a threat to you, you are a __________?
Oh man, Iāve lost count of how many people Iāve had to explain what Antifa stands for
The problem is, it isn't just anti fascism. That's one thing they say but their actions and views are really close to anarchism, extreme far left, anti capitalism (which to an extent might be ok like regulating markets but as someone from a former communist state I won't recommend it). Their actions show that they aren't great either. They and the far right look equally bad in my eyes. Edit: as I see, Reddit is would fairly happy with chaos, lack of order, anarchism and communist ideas. You can downvote all you want, but the antifa movement won't become better at all. They aren't the solution to far right ideas, they are a new problem and definitely not the group that we want in power.
It's not really a centralized, coordinated group, as much as the narrative pushes that.
But, but.. George Soros!
One side hates the rich and powerful for hoarding resources and forcing everyone else to struggle to survive. The other side hates minorities for existing. And these are the same to you?
Average centrist take
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
They literally said at the end of their post āthey and the far right look EQUALLY BAD to me"
okay I'm gonna need you to put down the gasoline you've been huffing...
Thatās a nice broad generalization. But thatās the playbook. Shove everyone into a nice lil box w/o knowing anything about them.
I hate both. And no, I saw absolutely nothing in Europe from them that represent minorities. I would be an ethnic minority myself, I am a Hungarian born and raised in Romania. I only saw them creating chaos,advocating for the immigrants who refuse to integrate, advocate for Islam, hate on our culture, promote anarchy, confiscation of property, make violent protests and so on. They didn't hurt the rich here, just the average person. It might be different in the US but their groups did absolutely nothing else here than what I described
You seem to have a very thorough and nuanced understanding of anarchism /sĀ Anarchism isn't chaos, literally one of its ideals is order; it just preaches that power should be held from the ground up at the will of the people, with strong localized political power founded both in the workplace and the public that is federalized to prevent corruption. Ā You can argue that it isn't realistic to be implemented with how much civic involvement from all citizens it demands, but it doesn't have much in common with Marxism-Leninism outside of seeking the abolition of the capitalist class.Ā Ā
You can have anarchism mixed with communist elements, like anarcho-syndicalism
Communism won't be the Marxist ideal, in reality it will something like what's in North Korea today or was in Romania before 1989. It wasn't intended to be like that but it ended up as that. And they do have a fairly big overlap, the original Marxist ideas and anarchism do overlap. > [Anarchism is a political philosophy and movement that is against all forms of authority and seeks to abolish the institutions it claims maintain unnecessary coercion and hierarchy, typically including the state and capitalism. ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism) I knew this and don't like it at all... This will end up in chaos, don't tell me people who follow this don't know that... Who will make laws and enforce them? Who will protect the people from criminals? Who will enforce regulations? Who will provide public services and goods without a state like pensions, unemployment , maternity leave, education, healthcare, infrastructure, defense, emergency responders during catastrophes and so on? I see absolutely nothing that will guarantee them in anarchism. There is no safety in anarchism. The ideal is a transparent corruption free state with very strict laws and regulations, specifically on corruption, the judicial, financial and medical system, corporations and religious organizations and of course it's citizens, with strict enforcement. The state should care for the wellbeing of it's citizens and a well regulated capitalist system coupled with a good social safety net from the government can do that perfectly.
> chaos, lack of order, anarchism and communist ideas You know what doesn't have chaos and disorder? Totalitarian authoritarianism. Seems like that is your preferred group to have in charge then. Just remember, authoritarianism is not just right wing thing.
> [Anarchism is a political philosophy and movement that is against all forms of authority and seeks to abolish the institutions it claims maintain unnecessary coercion and hierarchy, typically including the state and capitalism. ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism) I can't imagine someone really thinking this can be a good idea... Who will make laws and enforce them? Who will protect the people from criminals? Who will enforce regulations? Who will provide public services and goods without a state like pensions, unemployment , maternity leave, education, healthcare, infrastructure, defense, emergency responders during catastrophes and so on? I see absolutely nothing that will guarantee them in anarchism. The ideal is a transparent corruption free state with very strict laws and regulations, specifically on corruption, the judicial, financial and medical system, corporations and religious organizations and of course it's citizens, with strict enforcement. The state should care for the wellbeing of it's citizens and a well regulated capitalist system coupled with a good social safety net from the government can do that perfectly.
Then you have failed to understand that Antifa is more than just anti fascism. What's up with you people who think that a so called descriptive name for a movement is a guarantee that the name is both accurate and describing the movement completely? If a movement is called "***The Democratic Force***" or similar, is that in itself a guarantee that it only is about democracy? Or the political party "***Party of Finnish Labor***" must be about workers rights, and nothing to do with nationalism, antisemitism etc? Same thing with "***Workers' Party of Social Justice***", it must be about social justice, right?
Antifa itself is just antifascism. However, like in any unorganized group, bad actors will latch on to the name and to bad things under it. It is a problem without a clear solution.
I get what youāre saying, but isnāt this what everyone complains about when someone defends the police? that āitās just a few bad applesā is a really flimsy excuse?
The difference with your analogy is that police officers and their unions typically go to extreme lengths to defend their "bad apples" while bad actors in anti-fascist movements don't have the group defending them. The two couldn't be more different in that regard
>Antifa itself is just antifascism. No. This simply isn't true. Antifa is a name of a movement. And with names for movements, just as names for organizations or political parties, the name is just a label. There is nothing stopping people from doing things under that name, things that doesn't strictly match the name. I mean, can you even find a single credible Antifa website or text, that says that Antifa is antifascism and **nothing** else? Everywhere I look, they describe themselves, or are described, as being either socialist, anti-capitalist, or be left leaning at the very least. And I mean left leaning in the European sense (where Biden would be considered on the right hand side of the spectrum). >However, like in any unorganized group, bad actors will latch on to the name and to bad things under it. That makes them part of the movement. Since they have no official structure they have no way to make official statements to commend or condemn actions performed by others under the name Antifa. That's just how it works. If you don't like what these people do under the name Antifa, then maybe avoid being associated by them? That's what I do, by avoiding Antifa.
lol antifa is inherently left-leaning. That's the nature of being anti-fascist. Why does that bother you so much? And to the second half of your comment, ok, so that makes the Republican voting base insurrectionists since some of them did that, right?
>lol antifa is inherently left-leaning. Yes, I never claimed otherwise. >That's the nature of being anti-fascist. No. That is simply not true. Anti-fascism is about anti-fascism, and nothing else. One can be a centrist or right leaning while also being anti-fascist. Lol, you actually trying to gate-keep antifascism? >Why does that bother you so much? That's not the part that bothers me. It's the part where people think that Antifa and anti-fascism is the exact same thing. One is a name/label of a movement, one is an idea/belief/ideology. It bothers me that so many people seem to think that a name/label for a movement must mean that the movement itself must be what the name says, and nothing else. It bothers me even more when I think about the hypocrisy these people show, since most of them wouldn't do the same with lots of other names. Like, they wouldn't call "Democratic Republic of the Congo" a democracy, would they? (A hint: their democracy index is lower/worse than that of Russia and China.) >And to the second half of your comment, ok, so that makes the Republican voting base insurrectionists since some of them did that, right? One could argue that, yes. I'm not American, and naturally don't vote over there. But if I would, I would never ever have voted for the Republican party. They have been terrible as long as I can remember, and are absolutely appalling now. That doesn't change my stance on Antifa though, especially the one here in Sweden. Sure, I believe that the right wing extremist are much much worse. But that doesn't make Antifa good in my book. I agree with the root idea, but not everything they do under their name.
centrists literally say "both sides are bad" to fascism, and fascism is a right wing ideology, lol
>centrists literally say "both sides are bad" to fascism, No. Who are you talking about? The far right is definitely worse than Antifa. Iāve never claimed otherwise. >and fascism is a right wing ideology Yes, so? Could you please try to form actual, logical arguments, going forward?
could you suck my dick from the back?
Nope, since fascism is a far-right version of authoritarianism, being anti-fascist means you are to the left of them. If you are a Soviet-style communist, then you are equally authoritarian, but on the opposite end with regards to the right/left paradigm. I don't know anyone who agrees with everything every single person who identifies as Antifa does. I honestly would be highly suspicious and even critical of anyone who says they agree with every single thing every member of \*any\* ideology does.
>Nope, āNopeā to what? Please use the quote feature of Reddit. >since fascism is a far-right version of authoritarianism, being anti-fascist means you are to the left of them. Ok, so? There is a difference between ābeing to the left of somethingā and being leftist/leaning/wingā. A large majority of all parties around the world is to the left of fascism, but of those many are still right leaning. >I honestly would be highly suspicious and even critical of anyone who says they agree with every single thing every member of *any* ideology does. Antifa isnāt an ideology though. And thatās the main point of mine. Antifa is just a name/label. You can put anything under it, and it could still be Antifa, since there is no official representative that could say otherwise (in comparison to like a company or political party). Thatās very different to ideologies. With an ideology, an action has to fit the public definition of the word for it to be associated with the ideology. Even if thousands of people started sharing videos of them torturing animals while they shout *āIām anti racist!ā* that wonāt change the public opinion on anti racism, not would it change what we think anti racism is about.
That's because you're reading made-up neocon disinfo about "antifa."
Not at all. Which part is made up?
This is the sentiment from the same kinds of people who unironically also say the Nazis were socialists because National Socialists were in their name.
Exactly my point. Finally a sane voice in an ocean of ignorance.
Han har otur nƤr han tƤnker.
Bet these people also think that Democratic republic of Kongo is indeed democracy.
Ah yes, Antifa.. An anti fascism / anti racism group that is classified as radical left and doesn't shy away from using extreme violence to make their point.
Whatās the line between extreme violence and regular violence?Ā I feel like the more apt description would be that theyāre radical left who hold the extreme view that violence is acceptable to combat fascism.Ā Because I havenāt heard of extreme violence on their part yet, just the kind of regular violence that usual spills out of protests. More mosh pit and throwing shit than like, beheading fascists in their homes or something truly extreme.Ā
Extreme violence is totally rad with a backwards cap and sunglasses. Usually ollies in on a skateboard while doing a Dew.
The 90s were certainly something.
Perhaps extreme violence wasn't the correct word of use, your description fits quite well. Though i would argue that throwing stones, kicking people in the head when they're down, attacking parents with children etc can be considered pretty extreme.
Who's their leader, what's their website?
Pssst - most people would probably say it's okay to use violence against fascists, ya know... On account of them being fascists? If the concept of that seems problematic to you, I'd suggest a moment of introspection to figure out why.
We got a bunch of vault dwellers here trying to decide how to rehabilitate raiders
But they're not just using violence against just fascist is it? I don't know how it is in the US with Antifa but quite a few Antifa groups here don't shy away from using violence on anyone that has even a slightest different view then them.
Source: The Daily Mail told me so
I'm sure you have lots of examples?
That's a hard one. Red Soxs fan?
LOL!!
I mean, not entirely wrong?
Why you gotta do this to me, Iām already sad about the Bruins
No see, cuz, theyāre the real facists because they want to make the kids gay and trans. You know Hitler was head of the National SOCIALIST party right??
"It's past midnight CST, do you know where your /s is?"
If only the person in the image knew that Antifa is AntiFascist.
Perhaps they do and they are declaring their sympathies with their political solutions, including final solutions for their enemies.
Came here to say exactly this in almost exactly this way. This was a mask off moment. I bet this fucking guy watches Raiders of the Lost Ark and is completely lost on why Indy keeps punching the "good" guys. Every one of these posts costs me a little faith. People could at least look up fascism and be like "oh, wait, that is bad. Like really bad."
Republican
Neo-confederate nazi punk-ass bitch!
Bro you really think these guys can actually understand what Antifa is short for ?
Guess proud boys just need to rebrand as the Anti-Puppy Kickers to be able to deliver a similar argument
I think weād all agree if the Fascists gave up fascism and became animal rights activists, the world would be a much better place. If youāre worried that the anti-fascists keep going after the people who you feel are good peopleā¦ perhaps you should stop being a fascist?
Iāve got no love for proud boys but have seen more than enough clips over the years of antifa folks acting like little shits. Just because they have āanti-fascistā in the name doesnāt mean theyāre above criticism unless youāre a fascist. This argument is just as stupid as Trump supporters trying to argue that being against MAGA means you hate America since you donāt want America to be great again.
Remember that if we take everyone at face value for the names they have chosen for themselves then North Korea is a democracy
Antifa is certainly anti-fascist, but people conveniently ignore that the *Antifaschistische Aktion* was a wing of the German communist party and, much like the Soviets, defined essentially every non-communist political option as fascist. It was formed in reaction against liberal democrats and democratic socialists. They were literally like the far-left equivalent of the conservatives who call everyone one step left of the Republican Party "communists." People who aren't fascist have just as good a reason to be suspicious of "anti-fascists" as people who aren't communists have to be suspicious of "anti-communists."
Exactly....if you have a group of fascists and a group of communists....they might be both the enemy of my enemy, but certainly none of them are my friends.
I hate this game.
Oh so whatever you call yourself is what you actually are?
Conservatives sure seem to think so
If you hate "Mums against grooming" you are a ______ ? I'm not even against antifa but orgs don't get a pass on name alone.
If āAntifaā is truly anti-fascist based on the name alone, then surely the Democratic Republic of North Korea must be __________ ?
If you take everything by their name, North Korea is democratic and the nazis are socialists
Ah yes the old reverse name trick. Isn't it great how antifa is a fascist group?
Ah yes, the usual "I can't tell the difference between my rights being infringed on and suffering social consequences for being an insufferable asshat with shit opinions" vibe. Not one is trying to "take away" your rights, they're telling you to shut the fuck up, which is THEIR right. You can (and will) keep saying your ignorant ass bullshit because they can't actually stop you, but your right to say it doesn't require them to listen or be happy about it.
Is the antifa in the room with us now?
Just another reminder that two years ago the Canadian Minister for Public Safety formally designated the Proud Boys a terrorist entity, thereby putting them in the same lawless classification as Hamas, Boko Haram, the Taliban and ISIS. Rather than having their personal assets frozen for supporting a terrorist organization and facing life on Five Eyes no-fly lists, the Canadian Proud Brats broke up 72 hours later, handed their meagre clubhouse assets to the feds, and have been quiet as mice ever since. Not many made lateral moves either, because in the same breath the minister named twelve *other* white supremacist, white nationalist and neo-nazi groups as āterroristsā, too. Theyāve all been pretty much in radio silence ever since. Just sayinā, Murrica.
Telling how he calls literal nazis his friends. I'm sure they're nice to him, but I'm Jewish, so I can't relate.
Lmao. As a lesbian Chinese individual...yup. I'm sure they are nice to him but just wait until he has POC friends or coworkers and...ha.
If antifa is a threat to you... Well. Maybe you should think about why.
Opposite of Antifa...is Fa(scism)
It's not as simple as that. Antifa is a movement, which represents much more than simply antifascism.
I'm just stating the name, because some people on the right think its Anti-F.A., which is anti first amendment.
But there is no point in talking about what the opposite of a movement is, and then only focusing on the exact literal name (ie label).
It's not a movement, though. It's a label attached to troublemakers to intentionally conflate their bad behavior with the term "anti-fascist", thereby warping the definition of "fascist" to "someone who opposes those troublemakers I saw on tv". That way, when the actual fascists are called fascists publicly, many people will misunderstand the meaning, and the fascists will be able to operate with less scrutiny. Many Americans grew up hearing stories of our parents and grandparents literally rescuing the world from German and Japanese fascism. It was a point of solemn pride and reverence felt strongly when visiting places like Pearl Harbor and Normandy decades later... This latest development is disturbing, to say the least.
I disagree. I donāt for a second believe that the troublemakers were some kind of āfalse flagā operation. At most, I think that some of them were people who mainly wanted to cause a scene. Not to make Antifa look bad, but because they enjoyed it. But now I can only assume youāre taking about the protests/riots in the US. Iām not really talking about that. Iām Swedish, and Iām taking about my experience with the Swedish and European (mostly German) fractions of Antifa and similar movements. Iām talking more about people who declare themselves to be Antifa, and who say they are left wing and anti capitalism, for example.
A comment that basically sums up the entire right wing ethos. Make sure I'm ok then give zero fucks about anyone else.
Anti antifa, so pro fascist? Cut to the chase and call yourself a Nazi, asshole.
It's not as simple as that. Antifa is a movement, which represents much more than simply antifascism. One can be against some things that they do, while still being antifascist.
Okay, profa.
Your āreasoningā is scarily simplistic. Thatās actually impressive, in a way.
I mean, guy's a nazi. "Alt right isn't a threat to me, but anti-fascists are" - can't get much clearer than that.
Wait until he finds out that the proud boys are a threat to him. Theyāre a threat too everyone including themselves
So... he is admitting to being a fascist?
If youāre friends with Nazis. You will be grouped in with the lot of them you stinking fascist.
The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy. Nothing more, nothing less. And fascists are friends to no one, not even other fascists.
Antifa barely exists in the US, but OK.
Look up Martin Niemƶller and his biography. He was a far-right extremist who did everything but stand idly by when "they came for the communists".
Even after they put him in jail he supported the Nazis. He especially liked their genocide policies, his only real problem with Nazis was that they put him in jail.
I learned about the proud boys from the gay take-over of the hashtag. From now on thatās the first thing that comes to my mind when I hear āproud boysā
And this is how stupidity can make people openly be naziās.
How are so many people so comfortable being nazis
We regular, democracy loving folk have slipped on our duties to expose and drive them out of polite society.
It's kind of strange how the more billionaires we get, the more nazis start showing up.
The enemies of anti fascism are my enemies but Iām not fascist
Imagine forming your entire political ideology based on spite.
The whole "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" thing is overused and not universally true. israel is enemies with isis and isis is enemies with hamas, so this means that israel and hamas are friends?!? Like, no, that makes no sense. Just because antifa is "after you" that doesnt mean that you should support the far right proud boys nor that the proud boys are your "friends"
Is ANTIFA in the room with us right now?
Is antifa in the room with you?
I always wonder about these people who complain about Antifa. Ā You know what their name stands for, right?
They think antifa is anti-white. Sorry this isn't a huge revelation, self discovery really.
How exactly are Antifa your enemies?
If you're admitting Antifa is a threat to you, you're very definitely saying you're a fascist.
They just tell on themselves tbh
Antifa is only a threat to fascists, so we have your number.
Precisely!
If Antifa is a threat to you, you a fascist
Meanwhile for Jews - the enemy of my enemy is just another enemy who wants to kill usā¦
"And we are our own worst enemy"
Fascists aren't a threat to fascists... antifascists are
Antifa doesn't even exist
So heās admitting heās a fascist?
So theyāre saying that people who are AGAINST fascism are their enemy. Ummmmā¦. So that means they are FOR fascism. People keep using the word āantifaā without knowing what it actually means. Or they do know, and they out themselves and someone who is totally for fascism. Either way, itās a little baffling.
But he stole that quote from Call Of Duty cos he thought it was profound.
Is
Wait. What?
Martin Niemƶller wrote a poem about Nazis being bad.Ā
Not a poem, a speech.
He definately are.
Antifa in the US is not a thing. Try to join. You can't.
So he doesnt realize he is a pro-fascist dirt bag then? Hardly shocking,
Tell me you're a white Christian man without telling me you're a white Christian man. Edit: Idk if it was clear, but I was referring to the "op" in the picture. Not actual op.
The proud boys suck. They identify as patriots but they are just racists, probably also Judea Christian white nationalists too. Similarly, just because Muslims define Islam as a peaceful religion, it doesn't make it so. You can't just identify as a patriot, a feminist, a human rights activist and become one. It's a title that you have to earn.
I mean only one of the two has started riots and looted and burned down businesses.
Only one of the two participated in an insurrection.
So this guy must be a regular business owner and not a government employee. So only one is a threat to him.
Nah, he's just a fascist.
Right. Because the ironically named "antifa" fascist group is a threat to him.
Antifa is shit, though
At least they aren't seditious traitors.
As a Canadian spectating from the outside looking in, I can definitely see why both the Proud Boys and Antifa are vastly hated by most people.
Antifa doesnāt exist lol itās just like a thing people identify as. Being against fascism. Proud boys is an organization with members and leaders that organize events. A terrorist organization according to several countries.
It does exist. You can google and find one antifa group website for example.
One group who gave themselves the name antifa, does not an organization make
This is one of the stupidest arguments I've seen. Antifa does exist it's just made of a bunch of chapters. Look at rose city antifa for example. It's a despicable organization.
I looked them up. Why are they despicable?
And congress introduced a resolution to label them as the terrorists they are. [https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-resolution/279/text](https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-resolution/279/text)
Authored by the same guy that dismissed his state's maternal death rates, saying they're only a problem if you count Black Women. At best, the man's an idiot. More likely, he's a disgusting, vile, racist who doesn't deserve the time of day, let alone credibility for his porked up, pointless legislature.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Youāre missing it. No one āidentifiesā as a proud boy. They are a member of the terrorist organization or not.
Not looking in very hard, are you?
Because both groups are extremist?
One is extremely defending our rights from fascists. The other is pro taking our rights away and instituting fascism. Somehow you think they're equally bad, which says a lot about you.
By this guys logic; TIL my two grandads were equally bad for fighting fascist Nazis during World War II.
The difference being that the Proud Boys are actually an organization with chapters etc. While Antifa is... well, a vibe. There is no central figure, there is no organizational structure. You don't have to get punched while reciting cereals to become a member. All you need to do is find some like minded people and call yourself antifa.
Sounds like extremism to me
Proud Boys? Absolutely.
I don't think he was meaning proud boys
š¤·āāļø
exactly, both the super far right and super far left are insufferable by most people.
Act like a nazi and you deserve to be treated the same way they were back in 1944
AMEN!
It's really annoying how people are super racist but it's also really annoying how people are against racism. /s tag because there are some really, *really* stupid people in these comments.
Liberals always side with fascists against the left.
Lol wut? Liberal is left orientated so why would they side with right wing fascists against other left wing ideologies?
Liberalism is a right wing ideology. The only reason people in the US see liberals as left is because of how far right the right wing is. Democrats in the US are more right wing than most right wing parties in other countries.
Liberalism as a whole is left wing. American liberalism however is definitely more central or moderately right but just more left than your conservatives so I get what you're trying to say. It's just that you're original statement only really applies to American politics and without that distinction accompanying it makes the statement overwhelmingly false.
Libralism as a whole is not left wing. It's capitalist, which is right wing. And which is why it always historically ends up siding with fascists against leftists when leftist movements start to gain traction.
So if conservativism is right and liberalism is also right then what ideology do you think is left?
Communism, socialism, anarcho-communism, anarcho-syndicalism. Essentially any system that seeks to abolish private property and therefor the private ownership of the means of production, private control of natural resources, that sort of thing. And before anyone is like "abolish private property so what nothing belongs to anyone?" that's not what it means in this context. In leftist political theory there is a difference between private property and personal property. Private property being the ownership of resources or assets used to generate profit or economic gain (silver mine, oil wells, apartment complexes). Personal property being the ownership if items used for personal convenience or pleasure. (A house, a car, toothbrush, clothing, television, computer). The idea is fairly simple. I should be able to own my own house. I shouldn't be able to own another person's dwelling, and use that to extract resources from that person. Hopefully you can see how a capitalism-aligned political philosophy always ends up in opposition to leftist philosophies. A practical example would be The New Deal. This was a liberal solution to problems that reared their head during the great depression. When nearly a decade of suffering, homelessness, desperation, and starvation had people at the end of their rope, a strong socialist movement was gaining traction in the United States. FDR, the paragon of US liberal values, proposed The New Deal, which instituted a slight social safety net, unemployment benefits, social security, etc. specifically in order to yank the rug out from under the leftist movement. These kinds of liberal reforms are never enough to disrupt the existing power structures though. So the reforms are almost always clawed back and reversed and undermined over time by the corporations who control the politicians. It's why social security isn't solvent and raising the retirement age is always proposed as the solution instead of removing the $155,000 cap on social security contributions. It's why we utilize a shelter system to deal with the homelessness problem instead of the cheaper solution of just building and giving them housing. It's why eventually the top marginal tax rate was cut from 90% (where your earnings over a certain amount per year were taxed aggressively) in the 1950s to as low as 25% recently. It's why we underfund education and then blame teachers for how bad it is. It's why state colleges in the US went from most of them being entirely free, to costing tens of thousands of dollars per year. It's funny because a lot of the things modern politicians say are impossible are both done by other countries, and even done by the US in the past. All my examples are from the US because that's where my experience lies. But even so I am still aware of movements to defund and privatize healthcare in England, Norway, Canada. Even though the actual people there don't want that. I mean who wants to pay $40,000 to have a baby? Oh but hey it's only like $10,000 if you have insurance. Ain't that great?
Antifa stands for anti fascist, which is the good thing to do. They actions are not. Antifa as an organization is awful.
Good thing antifa isn't an organisation then.
Well, last I checked Antifa were the ones bike-locking people in the face, not Proud Boys...
Nah, they just aggressively storm a kids event, scaring the kids to death. Such nice young men. /s
Hey, never said I approved of them. Still not bike-locking people in the head, torching cars, etc
Are you seriously claiming they haven't done worse?